: another head gasket story... need a little help.



Speed_Pigeon
10-25-10, 05:10 PM
So I bought a deville with a blown head gasket and stripped head bolts. The guy bullshitted me and basically I got scammed. Very long story short I need to get this thing fixed and Iím looking for a little help on finding parts! I have found a stud kit from northstar performance and the gaskets for the heads, but Iím looking for a main stud kit! It seems no one makes one and I wanted to ask you guys if someone has a line on one or a similar option to make it work. Iíd like to drill the holes, tap them and use oversized studs if possible!

Here is an outline for the game plan:

run compression check on all cylinders to pinpoint problem and focal area of analysis and repair
remove motor, tagging everything using tags, markers and photo documentation
remove intake and heads from engine
asses the block for warpage/cracked cylinders
asses heads and check for wear, warpage, cracks and valve guide condition and resurface and/or get valve job and/or replace heads based on condition.
drill and tap the block and install the stud kit for the heads.
replace main bolts with studs and asses crank and rod bearings for wear
remove pistons and replace rings inspecting cylinders again while pistons are out.
asses starter brushes/cable and replace starter if need be
reassemble motor and run second compression check
run motor on engine stand before installing to assure it is in good working condition BEFORE itís back in the car
reinstall motor
say a little prayer and turn the key

I am also looking into regrinding the cams and installing heavier valve springs. The motor has 100,400 miles on it and Iím planning on resurfacing the heads and doing a valve job too as well as replacing the piston rings. I only want to do this overhaul once and Iíd like to add a little HP for the trouble Iím going through of tearing down this motor! LoL

Any and all help and opinions are very much appreciated! I have spent the past week reading and lurking on several forums gathering info and ideas and reading archives, so I think now is the time to actually ask some questions and get this thing going!

Thanks again,
Dan

zonie77
10-25-10, 08:53 PM
The heads and rings are usually good at 100K. You will probably still have cross hatching on the cyls. The heads also should be good and just need the surface cleaned up and checked for straightness.

The half case seal could be done, along with the oil pan seal.

Don't touch the rod or main bearings.

There is little left to improve performance but there is a little there.

Submariner409
10-25-10, 09:24 PM
The heads and rings are usually good at 100K. You will probably still have cross hatching on the cyls. The heads also should be good and just need the surface cleaned up and checked for straightness.

The half case seal could be done, along with the oil pan seal.

Don't touch the rod or main bearings.

There is little left to improve performance but there is a little there.

Forget the cam regrind and heavier valve springs - the engine and drivetrain controls are already set up to go to 6,300 rpm redline without valve float and you can't change that. No one is presently programming PCM's for this package. You might talk to Lyndon Wester at Wester's Garage in Canada.

You do NOT need main studs - this critter already has 4-bolt mains and a girdle that are bulletproof.

If the lower block (halfcase) has no oil leaks, don't even open it up. ^^^

The pistons and rings will hardly be broken in at 100k.

Take a hard look at all 32 cam followers - if they are dished you'll need to replace them and maybe the cams - $1,400. Cams are scarce and new followers are $32 each.

Consider running a fleet/marine 10W-30 oil - Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, Pennzoil Long Life. Read up on ZDDP and anti-scuff additives to find out why.

................please understand that there is practically NO aftermarket support for a FWD base Northstar drivetrain.

Ranger
10-25-10, 09:58 PM
run compression check on all cylinders to pinpoint problem and focal area of analysis and repair
A compression test won't tell you jack about the head gaskets. You need to do a leak down test, but why bother. You seem to already know that the gaskets are bad. Not much to add to what Zonie and Sub said. Bottom end is bullet proof. Unless it's leaking, leave it alone, save your money and time and just do the head gaskets and studs and it will outlast the rest of the car.

Speed_Pigeon
10-26-10, 02:40 AM
Forget the cam regrind and heavier valve springs - the engine and drivetrain controls are already set up to go to 6,300 rpm redline without valve float and you can't change that. No one is presently programming PCM's for this package. You might talk to Lyndon Wester at Wester's Garage in Canada.

You do NOT need main studs - this critter already has 4-bolt mains and a girdle that are bulletproof.

If the lower block (halfcase) has no oil leaks, don't even open it up. ^^^

The pistons and rings will hardly be broken in at 100k.

Take a hard look at all 32 cam followers - if they are dished you'll need to replace them and maybe the cams - $1,400. Cams are scarce and new followers are $32 each.

Consider running a fleet/marine 10W-30 oil - Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, Pennzoil Long Life. Read up on ZDDP and anti-scuff additives to find out why.

................please understand that there is practically NO aftermarket support for a FWD base Northstar drivetrain.


the only reason i am worried about the mains is because of the blown head gasket and stripped bolts. i am worried that i will spend the effort to rip into the top of the motor and repair it, only to put it back in and find out that the rod bearings are turned from coolant being in the oil. that's the reason for my plan to open the bottom. i figured while i was there, i might as well stud the mains and be done with it. it doesn't knock or anything on decel like it has a loose rod, but i was going to check and replace the bearings if they needed it or even have the crank reground and put oversized bearings in it.

as for the oil pan and distribution plate (i think that's what it's called) there are no leaks at all and everything looks good from that end. i was reading that the rings usually wear out at 100k and the cylinders could probably stand for a honing and new rings... if this is wrong, then i welcome scratching that off my list!

as for the lack of aftermarket support, i am finding this out!!! it's absolutely ridiculous that everyone including GM just views these motors as disposable!! even the haynes manual i'm reading says that the motor should be replaced! it's crazy.

i've worked on and built a lot of engines, but they've all been older american muscle... nothing this new or advanced. i've never open an overhead cam engine and certainly never worked on a front wheel drive system before! dropping thing out the bottom just seems unnatural to me and this is really going to push my limits and force me to forget 90% of what i thought i knew. hell, i've never even worked on an aluminum block before! that's one of the reason i am running for studs, because when things like this happen, or an intake manifold pops up from a blower, you over size it and stud it! i really appreciate the help and advice people. thanks a lot and i'm always open to ideas and tricks an tips and suggestions.

Speed_Pigeon
10-26-10, 02:58 AM
A compression test won't tell you jack about the head gaskets. You need to do a leak down test, but why bother. You seem to already know that the gaskets are bad. Not much to add to what Zonie and Sub said. Bottom end is bullet proof. Unless it's leaking, leave it alone, save your money and time and just do the head gaskets and studs and it will outlast the rest of the car.

I guess you’re right about that. I’m doing both sides so it doesn’t really matter which side blew out, but I wanted to know which gasket it was so I could pay a little more attention and have that head resurfaced and check it extra carefully. No reason to bother too much with the side that’s still good, just pull it off, stud it, replace the gasket and put it back on. I do feel much better knowing that the bottom end is rock solid, so I guess I’ll leave it alone. It doesn’t have any leaks or anything and everything under the car is clean and shows no signs of drips or leaks.

Is there a way to know if the bearings are still good other than opening the bottom? I plan on draining the oil and filtering it and cutting open the filter that’s on the car now to check for metal and debris, but since the guy that sold it to me lied his ass off and really screwed me over (so much that he made sure there was no coolant in it so it would start and drive just fine for a quick test drive without steaming or pushing fluid out the reservoir cap) I just want to be sure he didn’t put fresh oil in it and a new filter to hide the possible damage. I’m kind of at a loss here because I didn’t have the car when the problem happened. I’m coming into this after the fact with no information and trying to play catch-up.

STSS
10-26-10, 08:15 AM
If it's not knockin' and there's no debris in the filter, your bearings should be fine.... These aluminum rods get beat out of round pretty quick if you spin a bearing and they start really knockin' quickly.

RippyPartsDept
10-26-10, 08:59 AM
do yourself a BIG BIG favor and dump the Haynes manual for a Factory Service Manual ... worlds of difference

Submariner409
10-26-10, 11:04 AM
If it's not knockin' and there's no debris in the filter, your bearings should be fine.... These aluminum rods get beat out of round pretty quick if you spin a bearing and they start really knockin' quickly.

The Northstar doesn't use aluminum rods. The rods are forged steel with floating wrist pins.

Oil pressure is one telltale for bearing condition - 10+ psi at hot idle and 35+ at 2,000, hot.

Send an oil sample to www.blackstone-labs.com

STSS
10-26-10, 11:36 AM
My mistake, not sure what I was thinking about....

Ranger
10-26-10, 02:43 PM
It doesn’t have any leaks or anything and everything under the car is clean and shows no signs of drips or leaks.
Good enough reason to leave the bottom end alone. The Northstar rarely ever leaks coolant into the oil when a head gasket goes so you can eliminate that worry as well.


i was reading that the rings usually wear out at 100k and the cylinders could probably stand for a honing and new rings.
Nonsense. Don't know where you read that, but when you pull the heads, look at the cylinder walls. I'll bet money that you will still find the factory honed crosshatch pattern in the walls. That's one of the benefits of a little oil consumption.

Check the heads if you want, but I don't think I have ever heard of one being warped.


do yourself a BIG BIG favor and dump the Haynes manual for a Factory Service Manual ... worlds of difference
:yeah: AMEN to that. Especially since you are not familiar with this engine. Can't emphasize this enough. You will not be sorry. It would be well worth the price even at full price from Helm Inc, but Ebay is your friend.

stoveguyy
10-26-10, 04:03 PM
did the seller say nothing was wrong with car? if so, than he defrauded you. i hope you did not pay full price for a no problem car and now have to pull motor.

tateos
10-26-10, 09:26 PM
I have done the repair, and I concur with everything zonie, sub, ranger, and the rest of the guys have told you - they are 100% on target

zonie77
10-26-10, 10:54 PM
Sub, you are right about the case seal, I thought of that and didn't add it. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

zonie77
10-26-10, 10:57 PM
Speedpigeon, a lot of us found that both HG's were leaking, just that one was worse than the other.

Do you actually have coolant in the oil? If not I would not touch the bottom end. As mentioned, the N* does not let coolant mix with the oil unless the HG's are extremely deteriorated.

edb150
10-26-10, 11:08 PM
I too can concur with everything everyone has said. I have done 37 of these repairs to date and all the info is right on. 2 in the shop now,1 with 52k and the other with 185k and still crosshatched like they were just rebuilt.

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 01:08 AM
do yourself a BIG BIG favor and dump the Haynes manual for a Factory Service Manual ... worlds of difference

man! after a 12 hours day today working at this, can i just tell you what a useless piece of drivel that Haynes manual is!?!?!? wow! a 5 year old with an erector set could write a better manual!!!! this book has 12 years of devilles and 11 years of sevilles in it and it is completely worthless!!! after about 3 hours i completely abandoned it and am only using it as a reference of the order to pull things out. all the pictures and descriptions are completely wrong, and it is so confusing it's not even funny! it gives NO specific information for my car and doesn't even have a complete torque spec! i might as well have eaten that $25 and gone without.

just a little quote, "disconnect all vacuum hoses, coolant hoses, heater hoses, ground straps and fuel lines; and label them."...... that's it!!!!! really!? i never would have thought of that! LOL. how about telling me where they are and which connection is best to sever them at? how about how many of each i need to look for? i CAN NOT believe this book is so vague and useless.

anybody got a factory manual i can buy? i'll search ebay, but it would come in handy ASAP! there's no way i can tear into this motor with directions like that... i'm sure i can get the motor dropped just based on what i've done in the past, and being a decent grease monkey, but that isn't going to cut it when i'm in the motor!

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 01:40 AM
did the seller say nothing was wrong with car? if so, than he defrauded you. i hope you did not pay full price for a no problem car and now have to pull motor.

well friend, knowing absolutely nothing about the northstar motor and having never done this extensive of work on a front wheel drive car before, (Iíve changed CV joints ONCE!) i would NOT have bought anything with this type of problem!

Basically the guy said the car was in perfect condition and was ďreliable and dependableĒ, ďruns and drive excellentĒ, and ďready to rideĒ. It had no plate on it and the one I had with me was expired. I figured my buddy could follow me home and if I got pulled over, hopefully the new title and bill of sale would get me out of a ticket. I drove an hour away to see the car and took it on a quick test drive around the block. It started right up and drove smooth as silk. Shifted great and stopped great. Turned it off and it started right back up again. No smoke or steam in the exhaust and no funny smells. The only indicator light that was on was the ďservice steering systemĒ light and it said ďcheck coolant levelĒ, but the car steered just fine and didnít feel sluggish or anything. I felt and looked great. My mistake was the hood shocks were out of juice and that hood is HEAVY! I didnít spend enough time poking around under the hood and didnít run the car on the highway or go on a nice long ride, so it didnít heat up. I didnít notice the heat shield under the hood, above the reservoir cap, had coolant damage; and I didnít notice several little sign that the car had been worked on. I mean, itís 13 years old and looked good enough.

I drop $2800 in the guyís hand and got about a mile down the road when I noticed I needed gas. After pulling into a gas station before the hour long ride home, I notice the car smelled hot, like overheating hotÖ I popped the hood and checked the reservoir and itís empty. ďok, no biggie, Iíll add some coolant.Ē WRONG! I add and add and add and figure out pretty quick that the coolant system was completely dry!!! (hence the lack of steam in the exhaust and it starting right up! No coolant in the system, means no coolant in the cylinders) It starts coughing coolant out of the reservoir and I figure out that it must be pressurizing the coolant system because of somethingÖ Well, we all know what that something is, donít we!? So now I have a car that I canít drive and needs MAJOR work. So, here we are.

Thereís a sucker born every minute, and that guy caught me on mine I guess. I had to rent a car dolly and tow it from fort. Lauderdale back to west palm beach where I live and now itís in my back yard getting worked on, on the basketball court.

Soooo, like I said, very long story short; yes, I paid almost full price for a gorgeous Cadillac that I now have to pull the motor on. It is not my finest moment, but Iím really trying to stay positive and just focus on getting this thing running so I can enjoy it. I am just truly thankful that I have the tools and ability to do this repair and am not just up a creek on this! The stud kit will cost me $550 with the drill bit and plate and all that from Jake at Northstar Performance and the gaskets arenít bad. If anything needs machined Iíll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Basically thatís why Iím here. Iím kind of stuck and HAVE to do this and I need a little help and advice from some of you guys that have been here and done this before (like using a factory manual!!!) thank you for the insight and I really appreciate the support and help everyone.

Dan

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 01:54 AM
Speedpigeon, a lot of us found that both HG's were leaking, just that one was worse than the other.

Do you actually have coolant in the oil? If not I would not touch the bottom end. As mentioned, the N* does not let coolant mix with the oil unless the HG's are extremely deteriorated.

no, I do not have coolant in the oil and itís not over full or anything that you would normally see. Of course I checked that before I bought it, and if it had coolant in the oil I would have caught the problem.

My worry is that this guy knew what the problem was, drained the coolant and changed the oil and filter. I mean think about it, if you were going to intentionally sell a car with this problem what would you do? I have actually thought about this to try and figure out where I went wrong and how I missed it! Going over it in my head over and over again, that is exactly what I would do! Drain the oil, change the filter, drain the coolant system and not let anyone drive it long enough to let it heat up and show the problem!

I was so concerned looking for body rust around the cloth top and checking for leaky trunk seals and overspray and collision repair signs and frame and flood damage and undercarriage rust and the million things you look at, I missed that there was no coolant in the system because you canít see into the radiator, only the reservoir!

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 02:02 AM
BTW, can one of you guys put me on a line to the factory manual so i know i'm looking at the right thing? i found a 1997 Cadillac Deville and ElDerado factory service manual. they're kind of a teal green and are running about $65-$100. am i looking at the right thing? this is what i've found:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-Cadillac-Deville-Eldorado-Seville-Factory-Manuals-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439e9714d0QQitemZ29042 3510224QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature

RippyPartsDept
10-27-10, 09:05 AM
http://helminc.com for a brand spankin' new one... or just keep looking around ebay

Ranger
10-27-10, 11:42 AM
Yup, that's the correct set of manuals. Your other option is a subscription to http://www.alldatadiy.com. Basically an online version of the FSM.

RippyPartsDept
10-27-10, 12:33 PM
Ranger... have you had experience or heard of people who use Mitchell OnDemand? i think it's basically the same as alldatadiy.com

drewsdeville
10-27-10, 12:53 PM
I don't know anything about their online service, but I personally never bothered buying FSM's because my public library has half of an aisle dedicated to Mitchell repair manuals, and they have yet to let me down. I think they are excellent. I can't think of anything that the FSM could possibly have that Mitchell doesn't provide ( I wouldn't know, I never had an FSM). All diagrams, schematics, DTC charts, and procedures for everything. It's all there and it's all accurate.

Not that I don't recommend someone getting an FSM, but if a Mitchell is within reach, I think it's sufficient.

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 07:11 PM
Ok, so everything is dissconected and ready to drop. Well, almost. I didn't have a deep socket large enough for the transaxle nut! LOL. Gonna block the car up and lower the engine tomorrow after I run up to the shop and grab the socket.

As far as the manual goes, the haynes manual says, "the 4.6L engine requires special and expensive tools. The home mechanic should purchase a long block from a local dealer or other trusted engine rebuilder for instalation. The following information is ONLY for the 4.9L motor." WTF is that about!?!?!? Help me out here guys. What mystical magical piece of GM engineering could possibly cause this motor to be exculded from rebuild instructions? All I'm doing is pulling the heads off and putting in the studs! To the guys whom have done this before, what can I extpect?

Submariner409
10-27-10, 07:31 PM
Unless you have excessive oil leaks or nasty bottom end mechanical noises you don't need to go into the lower (short) block. Worry about the studs and the machining process - keep it all squeaky clean and put it back together.

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 07:57 PM
Am I going to have any major problem getting these cams off and timing chains and stuff? Or getting them back in and keeping it in time? Will it be obvious once I get it open or do I need a magic password?

Submariner409
10-27-10, 08:11 PM
Am I going to have any major problem getting these cams off and timing chains and stuff? Or getting them back in and keeping it in time? Will it be obvious once I get it open or do I need a magic password?

Nothing major, just an eye and patience. The chain tensioners have pin holes to insert a paper clip and hold them in their present position - you'll need to further collapse them on assembly. I saw a trick in here which locks the cams in position so they don't go out of time: make 4 strips of paper 3/4" wide and 4" long. Before you uncouple the cam sprockets and chains, roll the engine to TDC on #1 cylinder - timing cover off. Take off each cam bearing half closest to the sprocket and insert the paper tag in the bearing half - now replace it snugly - don't worry about torque - this locks the cam in the proper TDC #1 position. The paper flag reminds you to remove the paper and torque/angle the cam bearing bolts back to proper stretch.

You'll see the timing marks on the cam sprockets, intermediate sprocket, and crank gear. Make it all line up on assembly, and make very sure the engine - crank - is at the same TDC as when you started. There's another thread close by with the chains and timing marks posted in a diagram. Here or up in Deville, I think.

Subscribe your car to www.alldatadiy.com - you'll probably need the instant online GM service procedures: better to "do it by the book".

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 09:08 PM
Yeah. I'm definitely getting a manual. Whether or not I could "figure it out" isn't the question. I'm pretty sure I could come up with my own system and get it done, but I would much rather error on the side of caution!

Paper clips and paper strips are a good trick. I was just going to punch and mark them, but paper works too. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be able to figure it out, I'd rather not just wing it though!

Ranger
10-27-10, 09:51 PM
Ranger... have you had experience or heard of people who use Mitchell OnDemand? i think it's basically the same as alldatadiy.com
I've had no experience, but have heard them mentioned before and don't recall ever hearing anything negative for what that's worth.

Ranger
10-27-10, 09:54 PM
Am I going to have any major problem getting these cams off and timing chains and stuff? Or getting them back in and keeping it in time? Will it be obvious once I get it open or do I need a magic password? To the guys whom have done this before, what can I extpect?

Check the Tech Tips section. Tateos and Zonie have done it and wrote a couple of tutorials that might help you.

Speed_Pigeon
10-27-10, 10:26 PM
Check the Tech Tips section. Tateos and Zonie have done it and wrote a couple of tutorials that might help you.

sweet! good deal, thanks i'll check it out.

edb150
10-27-10, 11:20 PM
There a guy on chicago craigslist in buffalo grove il selling all 3 volumes of the gm manuals

zonie77
10-28-10, 11:52 AM
Ranger... have you had experience or heard of people who use Mitchell OnDemand? i think it's basically the same as alldatadiy.com


I've used it and it's good. The problem is they each use a little different format so if you get used to one you curse at the others. LOL

zonie77
10-28-10, 12:04 PM
Speedpigeon, STOP! Read this, then proceed.

Get the manual before you go further. What transaxle nut are you taking off that needs a large socket? You do not pull the axles (which is what I think you are doing).

Here's a thread that already has a lot of links and info so it doesn't need to be retyped.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/176057-n-engine-removal-newbee.html

It has opinions on which technique is better. I prefer to drop the cradle.

An alldata subscription would probably give you all the info you need but I still prefer having a book rather than a laptop.

Throw the Haynes away or burn it.

There is another thread I did that is similar but has a little different info. I thought I bookmarked but can't find.

zonie77
10-28-10, 12:06 PM
Re the bearings...if it has reasonable oil pressure the bottom end should still be good. It's hard to get rid of the evidence with just one oil change, so it probably never put coolant in the oil.

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 02:19 PM
oh, yeah, i forgot. the oil filter looks like it's been there for a while so i'm going to cut it open today and see how it looks.

i'll check out the links and things and see what i'll do next, but just looking at it, how would you drop the engine and tranny without pulling the axle, unless you dropped the entire brake and rotor system and everything? it seems easier to just pull the CV joints, and remove the drive axle. then seperate the control arm from the steering knuckle... what am i getting into by pulling the drive axle other than replacing that seal?

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 02:48 PM
and hey!!!!!! what's with tying the powersteering system into the transaxle system!?!?!?!? i mean really!? imagine my surprise when i pulled the coolin lines off the transaxle and followed it around to the power streering pump!!!!

what was that engineering meeting like, "hey guys, lets tie a $3000 precision designed piece, to a $50 power streering pump! that way if the steering system fails, it will take the transaxle with it and we can sell them both! hahahahaha! oh wait, and lets just refuse to repair the entire engine, shorten the warrenty, and tell them to buy new ones! haaahahahahaha!"....

and my water pump is shot! (i took the thermostat housing off for clearence) it's CAKED with rust and now that everything is apart, i can see that it has been leaking. i had been told that they had problems so i will be replacing that too.

i played donny detective and have come up with a probable scenario. the water pump starts leaking, someone doesn't keep coolant in it, the engine over heats, the head bolts pull up and the gasket blows because i's not being pinched properly... how's that sound? it seems likely to me from seeing what i'm seeing pulling this thing down.

Submariner409
10-28-10, 02:57 PM
oh, yeah, i forgot. the oil filter looks like it's been there for a while so i'm going to cut it open today and see how it looks.

i'll check out the links and things and see what i'll do next, but just looking at it, how would you drop the engine and tranny without pulling the axle, unless you dropped the entire brake and rotor system and everything? it seems easier to just pull the CV joints, and remove the drive axle. then seperate the control arm from the steering knuckle... what am i getting into by pulling the drive axle other than replacing that seal?

You better read Post #35 and heed - before you really break something - You obviously NEED a real GM manual -

You pulled the power steering lines for no reason - the transmission cooler lines run to the driver's end of the radiator.

The entire drivetrain - engine, transmission, suspension, cradle - everything - comes out the bottom !!!

Oil filter - Grip the case in a vise. carefully hacksaw around the case right at the tapping plate crimp. Remove the tapping plate and drainback valve (if installed). Carefully remove the media pack and separate it from the end caps and center tube. Break the media pack into groups of 10 pleats. With a rag under the pleats, squeeze each piece of media until dry. NOW unfold the pieces, discounting any chips near the sawed end. You'll be able to see what is trapped on the outside of the media: oil flows into the tapping plate holes, through the media and up/out the center tube.

read this............

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 03:21 PM
yup, the radiator's cracked.... just at it to the parts list....

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 04:13 PM
You better read Post #35 and heed - before you really break something - You obviously NEED a real GM manual -

You pulled the power steering lines for no reason - the transmission cooler lines run to the driver's end of the radiator.

The entire drivetrain - engine, transmission, suspension, cradle - everything - comes out the bottom !!!

Oil filter - Grip the case in a vise. carefully hacksaw around the case right at the tapping plate crimp. Remove the tapping plate and drainback valve (if installed). Carefully remove the media pack and separate it from the end caps and center tube. Break the media pack into groups of 10 pleats. With a rag under the pleats, squeeze each piece of media until dry. NOW unfold the pieces, discounting any chips near the sawed end. You'll be able to see what is trapped on the outside of the media: oil flows into the tapping plate holes, through the media and up/out the center tube.

read this............

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html

i know that, the only reason i was disconnecting the powering steering pump was because for some ungodly reason i was using a haynes manual!!!! it told me to unbolt the power steering pump and leave it in the car! it also told me to remove the belt while the engine was still in. it told me to remove the brake system and split the a/c system and it told me to remove the drive axles!!! i've already figured out how not to open the brake system and i wish i had figured out how not to open the a/c system! i just couldn't really get to the compressor, and the second step in the haynes manual is to discharge the a/c system, so too late anyway.

i figured out to drop the struts and springs and all from seeing some pics on here too. i have completely abandoned the haynes manual and am so pissed it is such a piece of crap! i should have just trusted myself and done what i know how to do. i was just a little shaken by having never worked on a front wheel drive car before and never having taken anything out the bottom like this. now i understand why it only takes a few hours the second time instead of 2 days! oh well. heck of a learning curve, but i think i've got it beat now.

I’m compiling a list of tips and tricks and will be putting it into a coherent list with pics and making my own manual of sorts for future reference. Why doesn’t one of you guys come up with a step by step, coherent “how to” including pics and a detailed list and publish it. Over and above the factory, I’m sick of skipping to section 3-18 or 8-12 from where I am for instructions that only vaguely relate to what I’m doing!!! Why isn’t there a “this is how you pull the engine” manual? I don’t care about removal, troubleshooting, diagnosis, repair and replacement! I want to know how to pull the engine out of the car; not rebuild the brake system!

RippyPartsDept
10-28-10, 04:57 PM
i also told you in post #8 not to use that Haynes manual... but hey, you're the one doing the work, i guess

zonie77
10-28-10, 05:05 PM
iím compiling a list of tips and tricks and will be putting it into a coherent list with pics and making my own manual of sorts for future reference. Why doesnít one of you guys come up with a step by step, coherent ďhow toĒ including pics and a detailed list and publish it. Over and above the factory, iím sick of skipping to section 3-18 or 8-12 from where i am for instructions that only vaguely relate to what iím doing!!! Why isnít there a ďthis is how you pull the engineĒ manual? I donít care about removal, troubleshooting, diagnosis, repair and replacement! I want to know how to pull the engine out of the car; not rebuild the brake system!

why don"t you read the links i put in??????????????????????????????

zonie77
10-28-10, 05:08 PM
And Look at this one:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/144882-quick-engine-swap-question.html

Submariner409
10-28-10, 05:39 PM
And Look at this one:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/144882-quick-engine-swap-question.html

Clear out your mailbox.

Ranger
10-28-10, 08:58 PM
I’m compiling a list of tips and tricks and will be putting it into a coherent list with pics and making my own manual of sorts for future reference. Why doesn’t one of you guys come up with a step by step, coherent “how to” including pics and a detailed list and publish it.
Post it in the Tech Tips section when it's done.

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 09:39 PM
Post it in the Tech Tips section when it's done.

I plan on doing just that and saving it for future reference! Start to finish, how to pull the motor out the bottom. (Or at least how I did it)

And I found a complete engine rebuild spec for the 4.6L N* on a Fiero website of all places!!! LOL

I read ALL the links that have been shared here and ALL the links on those threads and ALL the links on those threads and so on. That's where I got most of the tips and tricks I have compiled into the list I'm making. I also found some GREAT pics, but still no illustrated step by step, in order outline to pull the motor.

I'm going to go a step farther and make it a "how to" on the stud kit and gaskets I'm going to change. (Oil pan, trans pan, gasket, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, etc. It's got 100k miles on the clock and I really would rather do it now BEFORE anything happens, especially since it's been overheated.

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 10:10 PM
Clear out your mailbox.

Ummmmm, if you're talking to me, I can't receive or send PMs until I have 50 posts I think... Read that somewhere here.

Ranger
10-28-10, 10:31 PM
And I found a complete engine rebuild spec for the 4.6L N* on a Fiero website of all places!!! LOL

Yeah, Northstars stuffed into Fieros has been pretty popular for some time.


Ummmmm, if you're talking to me, I can't receive or send PMs until I have 50 posts I think... Read that somewhere here.
Might only be 20 posts, but I'm not positive.

RippyPartsDept
10-28-10, 10:42 PM
I'm pretty sure it's ten posts

zonie77
10-28-10, 10:50 PM
Speedpigeon, The FSM is illustrated. I don't know if there would be problems using any of that.

If you intend to take pics get someone whose only task is photography. Once you start wrenching it is hard to stop and take pictures. I meant to take a lot and wound up with 4 I think.

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 11:12 PM
this is the fuse cover
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000303.jpg
this is under the fuse cover...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000304.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000300.jpg
transaxle breather vent tube thing anyone? found it laying loose in the trunk...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000301.jpg
^^^^^ like i said, when i got into it, i noticed it had been worked on.

this is the coolant stain on the hood's heat shielding above the resiervoir
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000302.jpg

well, now i know...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000295.jpg

just a few shots of the car
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000284.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000281.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000280.jpg
the leather is excellent!
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000287.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000297.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000291.jpg


and my personal favorite..... THE CAR PHONE!!!!!
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000292.jpg

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 11:28 PM
Speedpigeon, The FSM is illustrated. I don't know if there would be problems using any of that. If you intend to take pics get someone whose only task is photography. Once you start wrenching it is hard to stop and take pictures. I meant to take a lot and wound up with 4 I think.

yeah, i found the FSM on ebay for $55 shipped!!! waiting on that. the engine is ready to drop and from the pics in the thread you sent me zonie, i hung the calipers and dropped the struts and springs and all. bringing a pallet jack home friday and gonna use my GIANT honking cherry picker as a car lift. all i have to do is unbolt the sub frame, and maybe anything i've missed, and down she goes! i have my dad helping me over the weekend, he's a professional mechanic and easily the best one i know! the only problem is that he does marine diesel engines (which is why i have access to so many large tools and equipment) and has never done a twin overhead cam either. i'm glad to read that it's pretty idiot proof and from the pics and diagrams i've seen, it seems A LOT easier than some of what i've read has made it out to be... LOL i hope i'm right!

i'll be taking shots of what he's doing and he'll be taking shots of what i'm doing. i want to keep a super detailed picture record for the court case to show how long this took and how many man hours went into it. plus if i can help someone else the way you guys are helping me, it's worth a little bit of my time to make that happen. i really appreciate all the guidance and advice everyone. thanks again!

Speed_Pigeon
10-28-10, 11:48 PM
here is the complete 93-99 Northstar overhaul thread, including torque specs, part numbers and illustrated assembly; posted my an ASE master tech on the fiero website!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20100421-2-080614.html

here is the complete 93-99 Northstar disassembled inspection thread posted by the same guy. FEAST YOUR EYES!!!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20090219-2-082157.html

Submariner409
10-29-10, 04:45 PM
Ummmmm, if you're talking to me, I can't receive or send PMs until I have 50 posts I think... Read that somewhere here.

My bad.........should have read "zonie 77, clear out your mailbox".

zonie77
10-29-10, 05:39 PM
Were you sending me the winning lottery numbers?

Ranger
10-29-10, 09:19 PM
A little late, but yes that picture above does appear to be a transmission vent tube.

Speed_Pigeon
10-31-10, 11:08 PM
ok guys, my left and right heads look different.... the left head has a broken sensor in the back of it (instead of a plug i assume) and the right has nothing! can someone tell me why this is? is this normal or has one of the heads been swapped with a different year or something?

LEFT (in the back when the motor is installed)
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000334.jpg

RIGHT
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000335.jpg

Speed_Pigeon
10-31-10, 11:11 PM
so the motor is out and on the ground! i have most of the exterior pieces removed and will have the heads off by tomorrow night! slowly but surely, it's coming apart.

zonie77
11-01-10, 12:21 AM
The left and right heads are different on most OHC V engines. If the chains run up into the head they usually aren't reversible.

You could design an engine where they are reversible, but it's become easier to make a left and right on OHC designs.

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 01:36 AM
gotcha. what i mean is that broken sensor right there on the right head. there's no wire for it and it doesn't belong as far as i can tell. is that suposed to be a plug or could that right head have come off of a different year or something?

Submariner409
11-01-10, 09:02 AM
gotcha. what i mean is that broken sensor right there on the right head. there's no wire for it and it doesn't belong as far as i can tell. is that suposed to be a plug or could that right head have come off of a different year or something?

That is the ECT - Engine Coolant Temperature sensor. It's a wonder that codes weren't set, SES light wasn't on, and engine controls weren't really messed up - that sensor not only runs the temp gauge bit also sends all sorts of temp info the the PCM for emissions and drivetrain controls.

www.rockauto.com or rippypartsmaster. Dealer would be expensive - maybe a local NAPA store.

See those 4 ports for the water crossover ? Those seal surfaces need to be very carefully cleaned before you assemble the engine again. Same with the mating surfaces on the crossover itself.

BTW - "Left" and "Right" on these FWD motors assumes you are looking straight into the transmission end - then the "front" of the engine is the serpentine belt end and the "rear" is the transmission end. The left cylinder bank is referred to as Bank 2, and is numbered from front to back, cylinders 2,4,6,8. The right bank is referred to as Bank 1, cylinders 1,3,5,7. If the engine is in the car, then the "front" bank is Bank 2; the rear bank is Bank 1. You'll see references to Oxygen (O2) sensors like B2S1 - this means the sensor in the front bank exhaust manifold and so on - B1S2 or S3 would be the before-and-after cat sensors.

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 11:14 AM
Well, something fishy is going on here then. Because the coolant temp was reading fine without this sensor being plugged in... does it have more than one temp sender?

That's what it looked like to me was a temp sender, but i wasn't sure.

Ranger
11-01-10, 11:33 AM
Only one ECT sensor that I am aware of.

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 11:42 AM
ECT #15236386 $31.42 list price (forum discount is $20)

Cross-Over Gaskets (two of each required)
#12562046 $9.22 list price
#12562047 $9.32 list price
(forum discount $6.25 each)

is it possible that you broke the ECT pulling the engine out?

zonie77
11-01-10, 01:17 PM
Does any of the breakage on the sensor look new? How about the wire end?

A lot of the gaskets are classified as reuseable but they do get hard with age, I'd recommend changing any suspect or hard to get to gaskets.

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 04:08 PM
ECT #15236386 $31.42 list price (forum discount is $20)

Cross-Over Gaskets (two of each required)
#12562046 $9.22 list price
#12562047 $9.32 list price
(forum discount $6.25 each)

is it possible that you broke the ECT pulling the engine out?

Cool. I need the 4 crossover gaskets, the head gaskets, the oil pan and trans pan gaskets, a water pump and seal on the belt side, valve cover gaskets, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets, the big square gasket between the y pipe and cat, timing cover gaskets, radiator, thermostat, thermo housing gasket/seal, that temp sender, aspark plugs, spark wires, tranny filter, premium air filter, a set of a/c gauges and a vacuum pump.

Can anyone think of anything i missed? Any seals or gaskets i'll run accross? Wether or not they are meant to be reused, i want to replace them. At 100k miles and with it overheating, i think its the right thing to do.

If i could get a link or website to order all this from, i will gladly get it from one of you guys. I couldnt do his without the help, so i might as well make it worth your while. i can have all of it freight shipped to the shop if it helps.

I emailed jake feom N* performance about rush shipping the stud kit, but i havent heard back. If any of you know him personaly could you give him a jingle please. Im ready to order all this stuff when you guys are!

Sorry about any typos, i got a new HTC EVO (droid) and i'm still gettng used to the touch screen.

Thanks as always guys.

Dan

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 04:24 PM
and i just checked the wiring harness end to end. no broken plugs or suspect loose wires. it may have had the end broken and the plug was just stuck in the back of it. all the breakage has the same hazy charcoal color so I don’t think I broke it taking it out. Besides, it’s UNDER the cross over. Not sure how I would have broken it dropping the motor. It was probably one of the sensors I couldn’t actually see and just had to follow the wire and feel for it, that’s why I didn’t notice it was broken until I got the crossover off.

And hey Sub, how do you recommend that I clean them? Any special advice? Are we talking 800 grit wet sand paper or what? I’m not used to working with this aluminum stuff and I’m afraid I’m going to score something and mess up the gasket seats!

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 04:33 PM
lol. scratch that!!! jake emailed me first thing this morning! thanks for the quick reply jake!!! :yup:

sorry, i have too many email accounts and didn't check the right one... :annoyed:

Submariner409
11-01-10, 04:57 PM
And hey Sub, how do you recommend that I clean them? Any special advice? Are we talking 800 grit wet sand paper or what? I’m not used to working with this aluminum stuff and I’m afraid I’m going to score something and mess up the gasket seats!

Two techniques, and both require care and patience:

1. A sanding block using ~180 grit wetordry paper, NOT - NOT - aluminum oxide.

2. A simple hardware store single-edge razor blade paint scraper.

As you posted, "nice and easy does it..............."

jimsbox
11-01-10, 05:05 PM
Why don't you price the felpro head gasket set, it includes any and all engine related gaskets including but not lilited to, head gaskets, valve cover, intake, exhaust, crossover, I believe it also includes the throttle body, injector o-rings and water pump housing gaskets as well.

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 05:45 PM
Jake doesn't think too highly of the felpro rear main seal ... he said he got a few bad ones... might be worth it to just go w/ OEM for that seal

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 06:35 PM
Why don't you price the felpro head gasket set, it includes any and all engine related gaskets including but not lilited to, head gaskets, valve cover, intake, exhaust, crossover, I believe it also includes the throttle body, injector o-rings and water pump housing gaskets as well.

i believe i saw a complete engine gasket kit for $450. but it included the mid case and tranny seals too. i just need top seals. i was looking for a head kit with head gaskets, valve covers and intake, but i couldn't find just a top side kit. i'm not opening the bottom except to change the oil pan and trans pan gaskets.

hey rippy, can you put together an invoice for order for all the parts i listed above with part numbers and prices, and add the front damper/crank pulley seal too? no hurry, the stud kit i just ordered won't be here till Friday anyway and i've got some work ahead of me! i figure that's the bulk of it and anything i need over and above i can order by the piece or find here locally. i'll trust your judgment on which brands or OEM parts and all that. thanks.

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 08:34 PM
sure thing ... if you could provide your VIN that would make it a bit easier for me and more accurate too (less chance of a mistake)

Ranger
11-01-10, 09:46 PM
And hey Sub, how do you recommend that I clean them? Any special advice? Are we talking 800 grit wet sand paper or what? I’m not used to working with this aluminum stuff and I’m afraid I’m going to score something and mess up the gasket seats!

This might be worth posting even though Sub mentioned it. It's from our old Guru (A GM powertrain engineer).
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/27507-scotchbrite-never.html

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 10:29 PM
sure thing ... if you could provide your VIN that would make it a bit easier for me and more accurate too (less chance of a mistake)

VIN # 1G6KD54Y6VU275854

Thanks. And where is the tranny filter? Is it just a screen up under the pan, or is it funky lile everything else with this car?

Ranger
11-01-10, 10:34 PM
There are 2 reusable screens under the pan. The "filter" is internal and only gets replaced with a complete tear down.

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 10:50 PM
There are 2 reusable screens under the pan. The "filter" is internal and only gets replaced with a complete tear down.

Ok rippy, skip the trans filter. I'll clean and reuse the screens. I'm not tearing the tranny down, just gonna take it somewhere and power flush it.

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 11:19 PM
could you elaborate on "a set of a/c gauges and a vacuum pump"
i'm guessing those are not parts you're asking me for, but tools you're expecting to need, right?

Speed_Pigeon
11-01-10, 11:35 PM
could you elaborate on "a set of a/c gauges and a vacuum pump"
i'm guessing those are not parts you're asking me for, but tools you're expecting to need, right?

LOL. Yeah, i need the double sided gauges and a small vacuum pump to pull a vacuum and refill the a/c system. I lent mine to an old roommate and never got them back. Haven't needed them till now so i'll have to pick up a set. If you don't have them i'm sure i can find some somewhere else. Found a small pump and gauge set for like $80 online. Let me know and thanks for putting together that list for me.

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 11:41 PM
Some thought's before I go to bed (i'll get the price quote worked up in the morning)


there's a filter kit for the trans (screens+gasket) that's not very expensive compared to the gasket only... might as well get that instead of the gasket only
if you don't have the updated water pump housing - i stole someone's image (JimD?) and reposted it in this thread http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/209553-how-water-pump-removal.html you can tell the difference pretty easily once it's off by just the notch for locating the old seal
the radiator: you might as well go to your local aftermarket radiator shop of choice - they'll do just fine and will cost half as much - if they need help figuring out which one tell them to crossreference acdelco #21404
water pump, plug wire set, and a few other acdelco parts have much cheaper options also made by acdelco - we never sell them, but i've heard lots on the forum use them without problems (i'll price the OEM stuff, but if you want i can easily re-quote with the cheaper 'selldown/additional usage/all makes' acdleco parts)
oil pan gasket is no longer sold (been years now) use grey rtv - we use permatex ultra grey -- out of curiosity, why are you going to go into the oil pan anyway? just to replace that gasket?
head gasket kits will come with the bolts and gaskets (nothing else, sometimes people expect more - just want to make sure you know what you're getting)
spark plug o-rings are not part of the v/c gaskets and are sold individually (i've added them to the quote)
stock air filter is fine - i would think that everyone else would agree to that - plus it's super cheap!
and maybe also add the coolant sealant tab cookies to the system too (will be called 'suppliment' on the quote)


Sub & Ranger anything I'm forgetting about, wrong about, or other thoughts?

RippyPartsDept
11-01-10, 11:48 PM
LOL. Yeah, i need the double sided gauges and a small vacuum pump to pull a vacuum and refill the a/c system. I lent mine to an old roommate and never got them back. Haven't needed them till now so i'll have to pick up a set. If you don't have them i'm sure i can find some somewhere else. Found a small pump and gauge set for like $80 online. Let me know and thanks for putting together that list for me.

yeah we don't sell tools ... and no problem at all... i get paid to do this stuff (so technically: it's my job :) )

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 12:23 AM
yeah we don't sell tools ... and no problem at all... i get paid to do this stuff (so technically: it's my job :) )

Cool. Thanks for the advice. Whatever isnt on the list, i'm sure i can find. this is just a lot easier than me piecing together what i need and not knowing the actual names of things. I'd rather not have to send things back and forth and reorder and wait on the new parts to arrive. i've got a guy for the radiator anyway. I can get it at cost. For the water pump i'm sure napa or autpzone or advanced will have it. I have all 3 within 5 miles of the house! thats why i wanted the invoice, so i could figure out whats going to be the most cost effective.

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 12:38 AM
Nice thread on the water pump. I saw the tool a while ago and know i need one. It reminds me of the clutch set up on my motorcycle! LoL. I'll look at the housing in the morning and see if its the new one or not. I dont remember seeing those 2 little tabs on the left tho.... if its the old one will i need a new housing or do they just use different gaskets?

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 12:47 AM
Acdelco parts are fine with me. Ive never had a problem with them failing or anything.

As for the head kit, i just need the gaskets. I ordered the stud kit from Jake at N*performance today so i dont need bolts. I havent pulled the plugs yet (tomorrow) so i didnt realise there were spark Orings, thanks for catching that.

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 12:48 AM
And yes, i'll take the trans gasket and screen set. Might as well.

Submariner409
11-02-10, 10:05 AM
I havent pulled the plugs yet (tomorrow) so i didnt realise there were spark O rings, thanks for catching that.

The spark plug wells - the joint between the cam cover and head - are what's sealed by O-rings. Regardless, they tend to weep over time. Common and not a problem.

If you buy a water pump socket - get the best one you can afford or rent one from a large parts store - the thin stamped models will let you down every time. The things are bigger and heavier that one would think...........

I'm partial to WIX filters - all types.

Get a tube of silicone dielectric spark plug boot grease. Use it sparingly in the tips of the plug boots, the coil boots, and around the seal rings of various electrical connectors. Moisture barrier.

I don't like the words "power flush" and (4T80E) "transmission" used in the same sentence...........use the new DEXRON-VI synthetic (100% compatible with the obsolete -III) and let it go at that.

RippyPartsDept
11-02-10, 11:27 AM
[bad link edited out]

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 03:11 PM
Hey guys, give me a crash course in getting the cam chains off. And how do i find TDC on cylider one? I can't get my finger in the spark plug hole like i usually would...

Rippy, i'll scope the parts list tonight. Kind of busy and dirty right now. LOL

Ranger
11-02-10, 03:43 PM
I'm with Sub. Flushing is for toilets. Go to the Technical Archives at the top left of this page and read up on Transmission Flushing.

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 04:21 PM
Ok. I used a drinking straw to find TDC on #1. Now i'm stuck... How do i get the can tensioner to release!? Everything i'm reading says to release it, but not how! Do i just unbolt it and pull it out, or is their magic?

Submariner409
11-02-10, 05:21 PM
Ok. I used a drinking straw to find TDC on #1. Now i'm stuck... How do i get the can tensioner to release!? Everything i'm reading says to release it, but not how! Do i just unbolt it and pull it out, or is their magic?

Lock all 4 cams at 12:00 TDC firing stroke, then remove the center bolts from the cam sprockets. The tensioners can be removed and their latches tripped, then pinned in place (retracted).

What you're looking at, right now, should appear exactly as in the posted chain diagram - timing dots and all.

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 08:54 PM
I got it. It took me a second to figure out how to work the little tensioner and pin it in place. I got both heads off and found 1 head bolt that was stripped and one that was tight, but wobly. The cyliders are GREAT!!!!! Carbon covered pistons but the wall are nice. The gaskets didn't look too bad and came off in one piece, but there are some burnt spots where it could have been leaking. With the stripped bolts and the burn marks, i think i figured it out. All the problem was in the right bank and the left cracked loose and had a good looking gasket. There wasn't any water in the cylinder, but it was dry and i had started it a few times to move the car and get it on and off the tow dolly and such. I took lots of pics and will post them later. Gonna put a.straoght edge on the heads and check the valves and measure everything tomorrow. Fingers crossed! Got lots of cleaning to do!

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 09:01 PM
I need to really inspect the heads because as hard as the cooling system was being pressurized, it seemed like it was coming from the head. Any cost effective way to be sure its not cracked besides looking really well?

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 11:04 PM
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000339.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000340.jpg

7,5,3,1. (5 and 6 were COVERED in either oil or coolant. Not sure which)
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000341.jpg

2,4,6,8
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000343.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000344.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000345.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000346.jpg

How to find TDC!
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000347.jpg

Right Bank. 2 of the bolts around 5 and 3 were stripped. If you look close, you can see some scorching where the gasket was weak or possibly failed.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000348.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000349.jpg

Left Bank. Everything was tight and cracked on itís way out. I think the fluid was crossing over I the intake to wet #6 plugÖ this side has much more well defined rings where the gasket was.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000353.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000354.jpg

Speed_Pigeon
11-02-10, 11:05 PM
Left Bank Head
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000355.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000356.jpg

Right Bank Head
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/RB1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/RB2.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/RB3.jpg

The head bolts, all of which had some metal on them, but several had full on threads that I could peel off! Even though the left bank was solid, 2 bolts still brought threads with it…
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000359.jpg

And just for Rippy, here’s the pump housing. I’m assuming it’s the old one. So are you selling me a new one, or an old gasket?
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000357.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000358.jpg

RippyPartsDept
11-02-10, 11:19 PM
new gasket will fit the old housing (old gasket no longer made/sold) ... but they did a slight re-design of the housing (i think it was due to possible leaks and maybe also for coolant flow)
we put a new housing on (just about) every car that gets a water pump and has the old housing

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 12:57 AM
new gasket will fit the old housing (old gasket no longer made/sold) ... but they did a slight re-design of the housing (i think it was due to possible leaks and maybe also for coolant flow)
we put a new housing on (just about) every car that gets a water pump and has the old housing

ok. if it's better than lets do it. i want to keep this thing cool and comfortable! and BTW rippy, when i tried to look at your parts list i got this error:

""vBulletin Message
Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

IMPORTANT: If you received this message immediately after posting, there's a good chance your message was flagged as spam. Please see the following link for more information in regards.""

so lets add the water pump housing (will the old thermo housing still fit or does it come as a set or what?) and i need the water pump pulley belt and an oil dip stick o-ring too. might as well do the belt while it's out and i had to pull the dip stick off because i was afriad i'd break it.

oh yeah, and the cam seal where it goes through the valve cover for the water pump pulley!

hey, maybe you can be a sport and come install all this shit for me too! LOL.

RippyPartsDept
11-03-10, 01:34 PM
lets try this again

[removed link - parts list updated and error corrected]

I think I might have forgot to finalize the upload or something... I did check it, but I think I might have had to click on "save" button or something.

Anyways, the list doesn't have the cam seal, w/pump belt or the dipstick o-ring

and to clarify you want the o-ring for the dipstick sheath/tube at the block, right? not the o-ring on the actual dipstick at the top that seals against the top of the tube.

Also, you might want to check the tension (and the pulley) on that w/pump belt tensioner... we do change those fairly frequently (usually because it failed and tore up the belt and melts the cam pulley)

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 02:49 PM
Yes, its the sheath o-ring at the block that i'm looking for and the belt and pulley look fine. The tensiomer is STRONG and nothing looks bad or like it is out of line or anything, i just figure while its out, this is the time to do it.

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 03:16 PM
lets try this again

here's the parts listing (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69832)

I think I might have forgot to finalize the upload or something... I did check it, but I think I might have had to click on "save" button or something.

Anyways, the list doesn't have the cam seal, w/pump belt or the dipstick o-ring

and to clarify you want the o-ring for the dipstick sheath/tube at the block, right? not the o-ring on the actual dipstick at the top that seals against the top of the tube.

Also, you might want to check the tension (and the pulley) on that w/pump belt tensioner... we do change those fairly frequently (usually because it failed and tore up the belt and melts the cam pulley)

ok. So drop the spark plug wires. For another $150, it's not that serious. And i think you only have 4 of the spark plug o-rings on there, can we check that?

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 03:19 PM
and i have RTV black, 598. that should work, right?

RippyPartsDept
11-03-10, 05:58 PM
Ok, I've added those other parts (and corrected one error - only 4 spark plug o-rings on the original list)

Here's the new Parts List (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69836)

RippyPartsDept
11-03-10, 06:01 PM
and i have RTV black, 598. that should work, right?
Not sure about this... we always use gray... maybe someone else can chime in here

ok. So drop the spark plug wires. For another $150, it's not that serious. And i think you only have 4 of the spark plug o-rings on there, can we check that?
the plug wire kit is one of those acdelco parts that has a cheaper 'selldown' version
$85 for the other set

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 06:57 PM
Not sure about this... we always use gray... maybe someone else can chime in here

the plug wire kit is one of those acdelco parts that has a cheaper 'selldown' version
$85 for the other set

Ok, Rippy. Second parts list looks good. Lets skip the spark wires all together though. There's nothing really wrong with the ones i have, they just have a little of that white powder on the out side of the wire from being hot. If anything comes up i'll let you know on the wires, but the engine wasn't missing or anything so i'll clean these up and leave them be.

Everything else looks good. I'm cleaning the head gasket surfaces now and will get that done and put a straight edge on the block and heads tomorrow. (my local macine shop will resurface the heads for $30 each. Does that sound about right? If that checks out, then i'll place the order from you and get this going tomorrow evening. The stud kit will be here friday and i hope to have the engine in and running and done next weekend!

So basically, drop the spark wires all together and save that final draft as the order. Thanks for the time and help. Let me know about frieght too.

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 07:03 PM
And what's up with those head gaskets? $75 each? I thought i saw them for like $20 each somewhere? Or are those ones crap?

Speed_Pigeon
11-03-10, 07:59 PM
Hey Rippy, peep this kit and tell me what you think. Thats a lot of gaskets for $225! And Felpro is decent stuff, right?

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Cadillac/DeVille/Felpro/Cylinder_Head_Gasket_Set/1997/FPHS26150PT1.html?tlc=Engine+%26+Drivetrain

RippyPartsDept
11-03-10, 10:54 PM
$30 per head seems to be a good price, maybe a bit on the cheap side, but that could be due to localisation and/or competition

i think that felpro kit was mentioned earlier in this thread... i have no experience with them at all though
i do know that Jake said he didn't like the felpro rear main seal and i have sold many felpro gaskets for other vehicles w/ no problem

the gm HG sets are expensive because they come with the bolts (i know you don't need them, but that's the only way to get the gaskets OEM)

Speed_Pigeon
11-04-10, 12:14 AM
$30 per head seems to be a good price, maybe a bit on the cheap side, but that could be due to localisation and/or competition

i think that felpro kit was mentioned earlier in this thread... i have no experience with them at all though
i do know that Jake said he didn't like the felpro rear main seal and i have sold many felpro gaskets for other vehicles w/ no problem

the gm HG sets are expensive because they come with the bolts (i know you don't need them, but that's the only way to get the gaskets OEM)

ok, that makes sense on the price difference. (a stock size stud kit from ARP is $250, so $75 for gasket and bolts is reasonable if i needed them) lets do this, lets drop the spark plug wires, head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, spark plug o-rings, intake gaskets, exhaust gaskets, crossover gaskets, and everything else that is listed in the Felpro kit. it will be much more cost effective for me and that kit has new valve stem seals included as well, which if the engine has been over heating, are probably burnt up too. it also has new valve cover seals for the bolts which i noticed some of the clips on the bottom of several of the ones i took out are crushed and mangled. it has a couple other things too, like the water pump housing and thermostat seals and whatnot. i will pick up that gasket set and since i'm not cracking into the bottom or seperating the tans case, i won't have to worry about doing anything to the rear seal. i'm betting that the little o-ring pictured is the water pump pulley seal for the cam shaft too.

adding everything in that kit up on your invoice comes to $330 (if i'm reading it right) and the kit is only $225 and adds the valve stem seals (finding some oil floating around the intake, they could probably stand to be changed) and valve cover bolt seal/o-rings. if i can save $100 before we even talk about shipping and get some extra things that i wasn't ordering, but would probably make sense to change, i think that ordering that kit would be best.

let me know your thoughts and we'll get this wrapped up and i'll make my orders tomorrow after i make sure the block is ok. i'm sure it is, but i would kick myself if i ordered over $500 worth of stuff (after already dropping $550 on the stud kit) and found out that i had to relace the engine!

as for the machining, there are several shops around here and i always use the guys i called for rotors, heads, cams, cranks and block work. i just couldn't remeber how much they charged because it's been quite a few years since i've had to do any of this.

Speed_Pigeon
11-04-10, 12:53 AM
ok, scratch all that. ^^^^^ don't do anything yet and hang back and go about your normal life for now. there seems to be some dispute over what is actually included in the kit because of a difference from what is pictured, as to what is listed in the description, and the jerkoff i got on the "live chat" customer service tonight has no clue what the hell their talking about. i'm going to call them tomorrow and try to get this squared away, so hold off and don't waste your time playing with the list until i have all the information. like i said, one way or the other i NEED to at least put in the order some time tomorrow so i will get all the parts in time to get it back together and meet my deadline. (sunday the 14th) i HAVE to go back to work that monday and i HAVE to have a car to do that... this is not how i pictured spending my vacation! i was supposed to road trip my motorcycle to north carolina and spend 10 days riding the best roads in the country... but nooooo, i get to be stuck at home and rebuild an engine because of some scum bag!

anyway, thanks for all the help and for working with me here. wether or not you're getting paid and it's your job and all that, i really appreciate the help. this kit is exactly why i hate ordering stuff off the internet without talking to a real person and having them lay hands on the item before i order it. it never works out the way it's supposed to.

i'll let you know what's happening and we'll make the order tomorrow. credit card over the phone, make me a shopping cart and email it to me so i can check out, whatever.

RippyPartsDept
11-04-10, 01:43 PM
gotcha

sorry to hear about your busted vacation... the western NC routes are very nice... we've had some rainy and cold weather though so don't feel too bad

Speed_Pigeon
11-04-10, 05:01 PM
gotcha

sorry to hear about your busted vacation... the western NC routes are very nice... we've had some rainy and cold weather though so don't feel too bad

Yeah, I spent half the morning on the phone getting bounced around India on the phone. Finally I called summit and they couldn't tell me much about the kit, but it was special order and would take 2-3 weeks to get! The guy was cool and felt my pain, so he gave me the number to Felpro's tech line and that guy got it mostly figured out... he read a more complete list than any of the vendors and said that their kits were built around "manufacturing repair guidelines, not factory assembly guidelines and that to do a simple head gasket repair this kit should have everything a shop would need to do said repair because that's who they put these kits together for is the dealer and manufacturer repair shops". So I'm hoping that this kit will be as complete as it looks and i'll be good to go. The guy from Felpro even told me where to find it... an Auto Zone right down the street from my house. I honestly would have never even looked there..... I pick it up at the store tomorrow at 5pm.

The stud kit should arrive via UPS tomorrow too, so I'll have LOTS to do tomorrow and over the weekend.

As for the vaca, I was supposed to spend 2-3 weeks (weather and $ permitting) on a road trip with the bike! I wanted to hit the tail of the dragon, the devils triangle and I absolutely LOVE pigeon forge and gatlinburgh! I had the whole thing planned out! Come up through Atlanta and up 441, stay in a little cabin in NC 10 minutes from the gap, stay there for a while and then head west through Nashville and Memphis, then down to new orleans for voodoo fest and catch the steelers/saints game on Halloween day in LA (I'm originally from Pittsburgh and am a die hard steelers fan! We lost, so no bigger there I guess. LOL), then ride the gulf coast back down south through Tampa and back home to west palm beach Florida... I've been trying to make that trip on a motorcycle for about 5 years now and I really thought it was going to happen this year. I was supposed to leave right after buying the caddy, because I sold my truck and wanted to get the daily vehicle squared away before I went, so when I came home I wouldn't have to mess with it.

Anyway, i'll let you know what is actually included in the gasket set and we'll finalize the list and get the stuff ordered. I talked to by radiator guy and he said a brand spanking new one would run me around $100, give or take $20. He also said he will open the old one and if it's just the end cap seals (because it was leaking from the sides, but that could have been fluid just following the lower radiator support) then he will just put new seals in the end caps. Either way, the radiator is handled. He also said he has a good heavy water pump tool I can borrow to swap the pumps, so that's another unknown scratched off the list. I didn't know where the hell I was going to find one of those things without laying out even more coin!!!

Thanks for the help and that's pretty much where I'm at right now.

RippyPartsDept
11-04-10, 05:16 PM
Ok, well i've got everything on the list in stock, so just let me know what you get in that felpro kit and we'll adjust... shipping to florida on ups ground should only take 2 days

Speed_Pigeon
11-04-10, 08:40 PM
Get this, I have to disassemble my heads and remove all the cams, tappets and valves, grab my own stem seals and then bring it all with me to have the heads resurfaced and a valve job done! WTF is that crap!?!? "why bring it with you?" You're probably asking yourself. So they can put it all back together and charge me to readjustment it!!!! What a bunch of idiots!!!!! I love working on stuff and I love mechanics, but I hate the ****ing business end of it. What a bunch of cheap ****ing crooks and douche nozzles. The worst part is that most poor unsuspecting people have no idea how absurd and needless this is. What ever happened to "here's my parts, here's your $300, thanks for stopping by"!?

*So here's the break down, $60 for the resurfacing, $240 for the VJ even after I have to tear them down myself, and $280 to put it all back together and "re-adjust" the tappets.... really!? Over $600 out the door for something a machine does 90% of the work on.... that's absurd!

RippyPartsDept
11-05-10, 01:11 AM
just get the resurface... we rarely get valve jobs done on N* heads you probably don't need the VJ or new stem seals

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 03:13 AM
i put the straight edge on the heads and block tonight and the factory manual says the less then .002 is ok. on the block, i couldn't get a .0015 feeler under it, but on the good head, the one that didn't pull the bolts out, i could get the .002 under it all across the middle... i didn't even bother checking the one that pulled the bolts out after that because i'm not going to have one resurfaced and not the other. the valve spring tool i have looks like a giant C clamp with the ring on one end and the flat piece on the other, the kind that goes around the head and holds the valve still while you crank it down and compress the spring. the problem is that the open side on the spring it too large to go down into the head to compress the spring! i don't have the right tool to get these valves out and with it over heating, i wanted to change the seals out. besides, there's some oil floating around the intake from somewhere and 2 opposing spark plugs were wet with oil when i pulled them out... i'm worried the seals are cooked. i wanted to have the heads pressure tested too when i have them resurfaced, just to make sure they aren't cracked up inside the valve guides somewhere. i'd hate to do all this work and find out that i missed something like that once i got the motor back in the car and all hooked up, then i would have to drop it again and pull them back off! i can't do that. i'm gonna run out of time if this isn't done right the first time. have you ever heard of that happening on these heads, or am i being overly cautious? i can do a leak down test after the motor is back together, before it's in the car to check the head gaskets, but i have no way of check ing the heads until it's running... what should i do?

zonie77
11-05-10, 11:01 AM
My heads all checked OK for flatness and since the engines had been (3 different times) running well I did nothing but clean the heads on the engine side. I had no problems with that. These were on cars that had overheated multiple times.

Since yours need to be milled I would have them redone (valve job) by a machine shop. Your other option is to check ebay for fresh heads.

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 03:37 PM
Ok, machine crisis averted! Apparently the issue was that although the tappets appear solid, they are in fact hydraulic and will not require shims and readjustment after the valve job. I got a proper quote from the machine guy for $330 to pressure test, resurface and do the valve job. That sounds much better!

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 04:43 PM
ok, so i found the place to do the machine work and i'll have the heads back by tuesday night or wednesday morning, but my stud kit has a rescheduled delivery date of 11-10.... so i won't get that until mid next week. i'm on my way to pick up the head gasket set in the next hour or so and then order the rest of the parts i'll need. it's coming together.... slowly...

with a few long days and some hard work, as long as all the pieces go together the way their supposed to, i might actually get the engine back in before the dead line! fingers crossed!!!!

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 06:52 PM
Ok Rippy! Here’s the gasket set!!!! Let’s do the rest of the parts and make that list. Just drop the plug wires and everything in this kit and we should be golden.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000360.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000361.jpg

Valve stem seals
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000362.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000363.jpg

Valve cover gaskets, spark o-rings and cover bolt grommets
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000364.jpg

Water pump stuff for the cam
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000365.jpg

Water pump housing, crossover and thermo gaskets
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000366.jpg

The list on the box. Why no one could tell me this is beyond me!!!!!!
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000367.jpg

But I’m a little confused…. I don’t remember there being a big paper gasket on the water pump housing…. Just the rubber o-ring stuck inside that ridge… any thoughts on that? This kit came with injector o-rings too, but I’m not using them though they aren’t pictured.

and um, what's the "oil pickup tube"?

RippyPartsDept
11-05-10, 10:06 PM
one thing that i notice is that the thermostat gasket seems to be the older 'skinnier' style... gm's original number was superceded a few years back with a thicker gasket - your choice

second thing is that i don't see the water pump housing 'teardrop' gasket

the oring in the picture with the camshaft seal is the oil pickup seal (i think... not sure if you'll need that)
if it is indeed an oil pickup tube seal goes into the 'manifold' between the lower block and the oil pan
the pickup tube brings oil from the pan up through the manifold to the oil pump (i assume)
this manifold has been redesigned and new manifolds will have the seal integrated
the manifold is the main part that's integral (usually) for fixing lower block seal leaks
the seals between the upper and lower blocks as well as the oil pan gasket itself have been replaced with the grey RTV
not sure why i'm telling you this though since you're not going down there anyway, right?

but just so i'm clear...
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5402/engineasm46lv8oilpumppa.png
422 is the manifold
419 is the pickup tube
420 is the pickup tube oring - which has no part number
(notice the list jumps from 419 to 420)

so........... i've adjusted the list (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69894) accordingly keeping the water pump housing 'teardrop' gasket in the list and the thermostat gasket on the list (prices in the trade column are correct so your total before shipping is in the bottom right)

if you want i think i still have an old style gasket lying around i could get a picture of the two so you could compare and decide which one you really have

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 10:42 PM
I'm going to drop the oil pan and reseal it, along with the trans pan and screens. I won't be fooling with the oil distribution plate or the oil pickup though.

Send me a pic of the thermometer gasket and we'll see. The one I have is pretty thick. As for the pump housing, I assumed the gasket was round until it was pressed into the groove of the housing....

Speed_Pigeon
11-05-10, 10:45 PM
I'm going to drop the oil pan and reseal it, along with the trans pan and screens. I won't be fooling with the oil distribution plate or the oil pickup though.

Send me a pic of the thermostat gasket and we'll see. The one I have is pretty thick. As for the pump housing, I assumed the gasket was round until it was pressed into the groove of the housing....

RippyPartsDept
11-05-10, 10:58 PM
i've never seen a water pump housing gasket that wasn't shaped like a teardrop... even aftermarket ones

and in my opinion there's no point in dropping the oil pan to just do the pan gasket if you still have that first design manifold - it will leak eventually if it isn't the current cause of any oil leaks
i think our guy puts anaerobic sealer on the manifold to beef up the seals made into the face - he definitely uses it somewhere when doing those lower block seal jobs
every so often he'll need a main bolt too... - one is special w/ a threaded post coming out of the head

hope that helps... maybe others can help you decided if it's worth it to go into the oil pan without upgrading the manifold

Speed_Pigeon
11-06-10, 12:12 AM
well, from the factory diagram, the crank scraper and the distrubution plate both use the main bolts to hold them in place... i do NOT want to pull the main bolts for a little bit of oil on the side of the pan. i had two drops hanging on the pan and some general wind splatter, but nothing even leaking enough to form a real drop and hit the ground... i just figured while the motor was down it wouldn't hurt to do the oil and trans pan. the trans pan actually looks clean as a whistle, but i figure replacing those screens and the gasket can't hurt. am i wasting my time on these seals? in my opinion, they both look great for 100k miles, i'm just worried about the overheating issue. i don't know how hot it really got or for how long and i'd hate to do this again in a couple of months for a leak that might develope.

Speed_Pigeon
11-06-10, 04:47 AM
and while doing the valve job, WHAT IF the valve guides are worn? i know GM says to replace the head, but i keep reading that no one "sees why you couldn't just knock out the old ones and put new ones in", but no one says if this is actually possible or if it is just theory... i was taught the old, "stick them in the freezer overnight" trick a long time ago and i have the means to get them out as well, if the shop refuses, but i'm just saying, what if...

Speed_Pigeon
11-06-10, 04:53 AM
i've never seen a water pump housing gasket that wasn't shaped like a teardrop... even aftermarket ones

and in my opinion there's no point in dropping the oil pan to just do the pan gasket if you still have that first design manifold - it will leak eventually if it isn't the current cause of any oil leaks
i think our guy puts anaerobic sealer on the manifold to beef up the seals made into the face - he definitely uses it somewhere when doing those lower block seal jobs
every so often he'll need a main bolt too... - one is special w/ a threaded post coming out of the head

hope that helps... maybe others can help you decided if it's worth it to go into the oil pan without upgrading the manifold

and sorry, i got off on some other things and never addressed the gaskets. leave the 2 gaskets in question on the list and i'll see which one looks better in my hands and probably just use the OEM ones you're sending me. it's only like $11 for both, so it's not like its a major price difference or anything. the zip code to my house is 33462. since we're not shipping anything big, i figure i'll just get it here. unless you think frieght to the shop would be cheaper some how. let me know, you're the expert.

RippyPartsDept
11-06-10, 09:01 AM
Shipping is going to be about $23 to ship to residential and $20 to ship to a business (not sure why ups does that)
i would also assume that shipping to the shop would arrive sooner since UPS usually does their residential runs last (in the late afternoon)
... at least that's the way it is around here ...

Speed_Pigeon
11-06-10, 02:30 PM
The house will be fine. I won't even get the stud kit until Wednesday morning. The heads won't be back until then either...

So how do we do this? My credit card is standing by....

RippyPartsDept
11-06-10, 02:43 PM
Call the main line at the dealership on monday and ask for the parts dept... there's a 50/50 chance i'll be the one answering the phone once they transfer you back... Duane, my coworker, knows about your order and can take your payment & shipping info if i'm not available.

if we can get it done before lunch that would be best to ensure it gets out on monday (so you'll have it wed or thurs at the latest)

alternatively, you can PM me your info if you're comfortable with that. some members seem to be okay with that, but personally I would rather do it over the phone if it was me buying the parts.

one guy even emailed me his info out of the blue - first contact: "hi, here's my credit card info..."
apparently he doesn't know that email traverses the internet in the clear like a postcard... but i digress

and just to be clear, that last list at $312 and change was all good with everything okay, right?

Speed_Pigeon
11-06-10, 07:28 PM
Yup, we're good. I got the a/c manifold gauges and vacuum pump today. I'll call you Monday with the info, in the morning. thanks.

Speed_Pigeon
11-07-10, 02:19 AM
Call the main line at the dealership on monday and ask for the parts dept... there's a 50/50 chance i'll be the one answering the phone once they transfer you back... Duane, my coworker, knows about your order and can take your payment & shipping info if i'm not available.

if we can get it done before lunch that would be best to ensure it gets out on monday (so you'll have it wed or thurs at the latest)

alternatively, you can PM me your info if you're comfortable with that. some members seem to be okay with that, but personally I would rather do it over the phone if it was me buying the parts.

one guy even emailed me his info out of the blue - first contact: "hi, here's my credit card info..."
apparently he doesn't know that email traverses the internet in the clear like a postcard... but i digress

and just to be clear, that last list at $312 and change was all good with everything okay, right?

Oh yeah, and what's the main shop #?..... lol

RippyPartsDept
11-07-10, 12:44 PM
1-800-RIPPY-22
it's in my signature.... many people have sigs turned off... i sometimes forget that...
it's also in our little ad square on the right ------------------------------------------->

Speed_Pigeon
11-10-10, 06:32 PM
Got my parts today!!! The stud kit and all the stuff from rippy. Have 4 holes drilled and tapped and its moving along. The real pain in the ass is getting the jig liked up and tightened down without it moving!!!! I've got 1 word for you Jake, WASHERS!!!!!!! I scavenged around and found 2night and 2 small that would work, but those bolts twist the jig out of alignment every time... The.washers help.

Everything else looks great and I hope to have the rest of the block drilled and tapped by tomorrow night.

RippyPartsDept
11-10-10, 07:06 PM
everything I sent you look good?

Speed_Pigeon
11-10-10, 07:59 PM
Yeah. Everything looks good so far. I didn't go through it all yet, but it seems to be all there and in good shape.

Speed_Pigeon
11-13-10, 11:39 PM
got the heads back the other day. tuesday actually. they pressure tested, resurfaced and did a valve job. they also knicked one of the cam seats.... it's not bad and i can clean it up all right.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000371.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000372.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000369.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000368.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000370.jpg

Speed_Pigeon
11-13-10, 11:43 PM
still working... it's coming along. all the studs are in and i test fit the heads and everything looks good. I only had to ďfinesseĒ 1 of the studsÖ not too shabby if I say so myself! Everything is cleaned up and ready to go. Gasket surfaces are clean and prepped and I will be reassembling everything tomorrow. I hope to have the engine back in the car Wednesday night. It might not make it in until the weekend thoÖ weíll see.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000373.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000374.jpg

And Iím not quite sure what THAT isÖ it seems to be a bolt or pin hole, but I canít figure out where it leadsÖ itís in the rear right bank, intake side in the cornerÖ extreme top left if youíre standing looking at the right bank side of the motor. (Itís the one with the little tube to help align the head, that is replaced by the stud with the shank; for anyone who has installed this kit) anyone seen that? Is that normal or is it a bubble in the aluminum from casting the block?
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000375.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000377.jpg

And my helper still has yet to bring me the right tool when I ask Ö.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000378.jpg


And just a little tip for anyone that may come across this thread and read this farÖ USE A WET DRY SHOP VAC, NOT COMPRESSED AIR!!! I used a tube taped into the end of my skinny attachment to reach down in and suck out the holes after they were drilled and/or tapped. The amount of shavings is insane and you will NEVER get them all cleaned up and out of the little corners. I held the shop vac against the drill and SLOWLY removed it after drilling. This seemed to keep the shavings under control. That and lots of WD-40! Then put the modified attachment on it and suck out the hole. I have an air compressor and tank (100 psi) but I find blowing things around puts them in places thet shouldnít beÖ like the intake and cooling system as well as the oil journals surrounding the entire front of the block.

Submariner409
11-14-10, 08:11 AM
That is an ash or impurity void in the block casting - one of the causes of bolt hole thread failure. A while back AJXTCMAN had a pic of a very similar fault that actually weeped coolant. If you have not yet inserted the stud you might use a toothpick to pack the cavity with pipe dope or elastic thread sealer.

Speed_Pigeon
11-14-10, 11:31 AM
The stud is already loc-tighted in place. The hole wasn't one of the ones that was stripped and I'm not sure if it wasn't there before, or if I just didn't notice it. I'm putting the heads on in a few, so we'll see what happens. It's pretty small and I used a little extra loc-tight on that one so hopefully it will be ok.

Speed_Pigeon
11-14-10, 08:26 PM
Heads and cams are on and torqued down. So are the exhaust manifolds. Pics later.

RippyPartsDept
11-14-10, 08:47 PM
Sounds like everything's coming together nicely... :)

zonie77
11-14-10, 11:28 PM
And just a little tip for anyone that may come across this thread and read this farÖ USE A WET DRY SHOP VAC, NOT COMPRESSED AIR!!! I used a tube taped into the end of my skinny attachment to reach down in and suck out the holes after they were drilled and/or tapped. The amount of shavings is insane and you will NEVER get them all cleaned up and out of the little corners. I held the shop vac against the drill and SLOWLY removed it after drilling. This seemed to keep the shavings under control. That and lots of WD-40! Then put the modified attachment on it and suck out the hole. I have an air compressor and tank (100 psi) but I find blowing things around puts them in places thet shouldnít beÖ like the intake and cooling system as well as the oil journals surrounding the entire front of the block.


That's how I do it. Much better than spreading chips around.

vincentm
11-15-10, 05:38 PM
I start my HG job this weekend, got the stud kit and gasket and seals kit from rockauto along with a new oil pan gasket, thanks for the shop vac tip i'll keep that in mind, for sure.

Speed_Pigeon
11-15-10, 06:42 PM
I start my HG job this weekend, got the stud kit and gasket and seals kit from rockauto along with a new oil pan gasket, thanks for the shop vac tip i'll keep that in mind, for sure.

Good luck, friend. its a big job! I wish I had my, "how to pull the engine" guide done. I just haven't had time! If you have any questions, just ask. There are A LOT of great guys here that actually know what their talking about! I have never even SEEN a N* motor before, and with some help, these guys made it possible. I definitely wouldn't say its easy, and its NOT for the DIY shade tree mechanic, but its possible. It's just LOTS of tedious, time consuming work!!! I think out of the 3 weeks I've been working at this, I've only had 2 days that really looked and felt productive. both of those being the last 2, getting the heads, cams, timing chains and front and valve covers back on. tomorrow will be intake and exhaust, then the wiring harness and coolant/water pump housing thing! Getting close!

Speed_Pigeon
11-17-10, 05:20 PM
Itís ready to go back in!!!! Saturday is D-day!!! Fingers crossed!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000379-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000380-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000381-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000382-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000385.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000386.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000387.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000388.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000391.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000389.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/danbauer81/Cadillac/P1000390.jpg

RippyPartsDept
11-17-10, 05:48 PM
nice... very nice... i'm liking what i'm seeing

Speed_Pigeon
11-17-10, 06:22 PM
Me too, Rippy!!!! It's about time! The last 3 days have been very productive. Having already been through the motions, assembly was nice and smooth. If I knew how, i'd fire it up right where it sits, but I assume the computer wouldn't allow of to fire with all of the fuses and everything unhooked... So glad its getting done! Tomorrow I prep the car side (clean the engine compartment and such) for a Saturday morning installation!!!! Here's hoping!

Speed_Pigeon
11-17-10, 06:24 PM
ooh yeah, thanks again for the parts Rippy! everything was perfect.

Submariner409
11-18-10, 08:14 AM
ooh yeah, thanks again for the parts Rippy! everything was perfect.

I see that you have the exhaust crossunder Y pipe off the engine. Did you look into the Y to make sure the the front pipe, welded into the side of the rear, is not sticking too far into that pipe ? A while back another engine was overhauled and the owner discovered quite a bit of extra pipe stuck in there, so he did some Dremel tool work and cleaned off the excess - He "ported" the Y.

RippyPartsDept
11-18-10, 11:02 AM
i heard that it's a good idea to dremel out any built up carbon too, even if your weld is fine (like you said 'port' it)

Speed_Pigeon
11-18-10, 04:18 PM
I see that you have the exhaust crossunder Y pipe off the engine. Did you look into the Y to make sure the the front pipe, welded into the side of the rear, is not sticking too far into that pipe ? A while back another engine was overhauled and the owner discovered quite a bit of extra pipe stuck in there, so he did some Dremel tool work and cleaned off the excess - He "ported" the Y.

I did look down in there out of curiosity. I wouldn't say it was "a lot" of pipe, but it stuck in maybe half way. I was curious about that, but just figured that's how it was... I could probably pop that off and snap a pic and then grind it out. It looks like the genesis of that problem is that the pipe is straight cut on the end, but inserted and welded at an angle. Maybe i'll do that now.

Speed_Pigeon
11-19-10, 10:54 PM
Hey guys. Is dex-whatever III AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID, the same as AUTOMATIC TRANSAXLE FLUID?

RippyPartsDept
11-20-10, 08:59 AM
Dextron III (obsolete, and replaced by Dextron IV) is ATF

not all ATF is Dextron though

jimsbox
11-20-10, 04:59 PM
Rippy, I thought Dexron III was replaced by Dexron VI, is that right? That is what I put in my new to me transmission.

Submariner409
11-20-10, 05:26 PM
Rippy, I thought Dexron III was replaced by Dexron VI, is that right? That is what I put in my new to me transmission.

DEXRON-VI went into GM vehicles beginning in 2006. It is a synthetic transmission/hydraulic fluid that is 100% backwards-compatible with the superseded -III. it is used for all prior transmission work.

I did the switch in 11/07 - better shifts and a more "solid" feel in the gas pedal. Today, 3 years later, the fluid looks exactly as it did the day it went in.

RippyPartsDept
11-20-10, 06:31 PM
yeah, i guess my wording wasn't very good there... sorry

Speed_Pigeon
11-20-10, 06:38 PM
Well, I didn't get to go for a joy ride tonight... I just packed it in and have about 2 hours of work left for tomorrow before I can turn the key! Have I mentioned how much I hate that wiring harness and plugging stuff in?.....

The engine is in, the radiator is in and everything is all hooked up and plugged in. All that's left is to finish the radiator hoses and do the fluids. It's so close!!!!

Speed_Pigeon
11-21-10, 06:52 PM
IT'S ALIIIIIIIIIVVVEE!!!!!!! It starts and stops and drives and everything!!!!!! I have a vid of me starting it up for the first time I'll post later. Sooooo happy!!!! Now a few little things like the trunk pull down switch, driver's window switch and trunk release switch and its completely done!!!! Sooooo happy. Can't want to take it out for a real drive!!!!

I found a few little problems, some I knew about and some I didn't, but its all good!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll work on posting the vid later. I just came inside and need to eat and rest. The motor is completely done, but a few switches need replaced. I tried to fix them, but something is fried on the board. Gonna call some junk yards tomorrow and see what I can find.

here's the vid... "CONTACT!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGlbtCzqMQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGlbtCzqMQ

vincentm
11-22-10, 12:10 AM
Speed please see my thread on my HG repair project, im stuck on getting the transaxle separated from the engine.

Speed_Pigeon
11-22-10, 12:46 AM
Speed please see my thread on my HG repair project, im stuck on getting the transaxle separated from the engine.

I would love to help you Vincent, but I didn't do that... I left it connected. I'm sure one of these guys will be able to get you going again tho! Did you pick up the factory service manuals??? They are an absolute MUST!!!!

97EldoCoupe
11-22-10, 12:51 AM
Got my parts today!!! The stud kit and all the stuff from rippy. Have 4 holes drilled and tapped and its moving along. The real pain in the ass is getting the jig liked up and tightened down without it moving!!!! I've got 1 word for you Jake, WASHERS!!!!!!! I scavenged around and found 2night and 2 small that would work, but those bolts twist the jig out of alignment every time... The.washers help.

Hey Speed_Pigeon - I am aware of this annoyance and have the answer to the problem. The new kits are self-aligning and will not "move around" when you try to tighten down.

If you do another engine, let me know, $40 will upgrade your kit to the new style self-aligning setup.

Thanks man, love the red cam cover!

Speed_Pigeon
11-22-10, 01:25 AM
OH PLEASE GOD DON'T LET ME HAVE TO DO ANOTHER ONE!!!! LOL!

I think a big part of the problem was the gorilla tape I was using. it crushed down and slide around a lot. On the second side I cut larger gaps in the tape to allow metal to sit on metal and that helped a lot! The actual drillimg and tapping were cake, it was just getting it lined up properly that was very tedious and time consuming! I had 7 stripped bolts total, so that REALLY didn't help the issue of getting it tightened down... The washers were a big advantage though....

how did you fix the problem and make it align itself with the holes being off set? I though quite a bit about how I would design it to fix the issue and couldn't come up with anything other than a larger plate. I ended up using the old head bolts as a reference to kind of "sight" the alignment before I drilled and the tap guide worked great! If there was some kind of shank to slide over the shaft of the old head bolt to take up the difference in circumference between the old head bolt and the drill hole in the plate, that would have worked perfect. That's the only thing I could really think of.

As it is, that kit is the best thing going for this repair, hands down. It worked beautifully. The tap and the bit were really high quality too. I was kind of worried how they would hold up over 20 holes, but they are more than sufficient and are still like new!

The valve cover was peeling and had some bubbles in the metal from corrosion or something. I figured if I was doing this big of a job, I could take the time to add a little pizzaz and dress it up some. Especially since I can't actually SEE the work I did! LOL.

Thanks for the help everyone, especially the parts from rippy and Jake. I may have done the actual labor, but between all of you guys here and the guys on my motorcycle forum, this was definitely a group effort!

Now for the switches... I'll keep this updated and put together the pics in order with the "how to pull the motor" (or at least how I did it) thread coming soon. I was asked to pit that in tech tips so i'll post it there and link the 2. That's all for now! I need a break!

Speed_Pigeon
11-22-10, 01:33 AM
Speed please see my thread on my HG repair project, im stuck on getting the transaxle separated from the engine.

Ok wait, you might be making the same mistake I was.... if you're using the Hayes manual, throw it out! If yore trying to remove the actual axle, don't! You drop the strut and spring and everything! If that's what your talking about, unbolt the caliper (its 2 pieces) and hang it inside the fender. The motor and bottom piece of the caliper will come down with everything else. I think I got a shot of that... look back to my pics and you'll see it. There are some sensors and hoses that will need pulled out of the bracket too. If you're separating the actual transmission from the engine block, I've got nothing...

Speed_Pigeon
11-23-10, 04:34 PM
Damn I love eBay!!!

Master power window cluster. ~ eBay- $30, junk yard- $100
Trunk pull down switch. ~ eBay- $15, junk yard- not available!!!
Headlight and trunk/fuel door release switch. ~ eBay- $12, junk yard- $75

Iíll say it again, I LOVE eBay!!!!!

And yes, these are reputable sellers with excellent ratings and the switched have been tested before hand. Or at least so the ads sayÖ

Speed_Pigeon
11-26-10, 10:56 AM
Hey guys, can you change the oil distribution plate/manifold thing while the motor is in the car?

Submariner409
11-26-10, 04:31 PM
Hey guys, can you change the oil distribution plate/manifold thing while the motor is in the car?

Simple answer: No

97EldoCoupe
11-26-10, 05:48 PM
The last vehicle that left my shop was a warranty repair on a 97 Aurora. That's done and back in the owner's garage. Because one of my former (former for a reason) employees cracked the oil pan in 5 places, the engine had to be removed from the vehicle and have the bottom end re-sealed, again new oil manifold and new oil pan, seals, etc. Big job for such a stupid screw-up. Anyone can make a mistake but 5 places, you would have to realize-

This is interesting - also, one of the threaded holes that holds the engine to the trans via a 90 degree steel bracket, had oil inside it. There was a void in the casting that allowed oil coming from the cylinder-head drain-backs, to drain through this threaded hole. Very small, but enough of a void/cavity to cause another oil leak source. Threaded sealant tape was the repair of choice, the void was at the bottom of the hole.

Speed_Pigeon
11-27-10, 12:08 AM
So you're telling me I have to drop the engine and separate of from the tyranny to replace that plate!?!?!?!?

Speed_Pigeon
11-27-10, 12:14 AM
and I'm not being a sick, bit why not? If I can remove the exhaust cross under and drop the pan, why can't I get the crank scraper and that plate out?