: e23 and e27



Reverend Hearse
10-24-10, 12:42 PM
E23 - EST Signal Problem

E27 - Open Throttle Switch Signal

what is est? how do i check to find the faults of these problems?

MrDobin
10-24-10, 02:16 PM
Unsure how you check the "source" of the problem. But this has shown for me on rare occasion when I was using cruise control or held the pedal when turning the car off or on. Clear codes and see if it returns.

How often is it happening?

Reverend Hearse
10-24-10, 02:24 PM
i have cleared the codes many times. the car has never ran right the 8 years ive owned it. when cold it runs great but when it gets warmed up it lugs down between shifts and you have to floor the gas pedal to get anywhere.timing is correct, cap , rotor , plugs and wires were all replaced with new parts. also when coming to a stop, it seems to be idling too high causing the motor to almost die out before it finally downshifts. it was owned by a funeral home and only has around 75,000 on it.

the recluse
10-24-10, 11:14 PM
EST = Electronic Spark Timing

It is a solid state switch, something like a relay, that rely's on pulse's from the ECM. It gets kicked in on closed loop operation (when the car is warmed up) and is more than likely the source of your irritation.

Reverend Hearse
10-25-10, 08:31 AM
is it a replaceable item? or a short somewhere?

Reverend Hearse
10-25-10, 02:55 PM
actually i should ask, is it a ecm fault? and how do i go about finding the problem? i replaced the throttle position sensor and that seems to have solved e27, but 23 is still showing up...

the recluse
10-25-10, 11:38 PM
is it a replaceable item? or a short somewhere?

Being as it is a switch it's more than likely replaceable. Where it is and how to get to it I cannot say for your model....sorry.

Reverend Hearse
10-25-10, 11:43 PM
that sucks, everything i have read has pointed to EST as the problem, but not one service manual or dealer can tell me exactly what it is/does. how certain are you that it is a switch of some sort?

the recluse
10-26-10, 10:27 PM
that sucks, everything i have read has pointed to EST as the problem, but not one service manual or dealer can tell me exactly what it is/does. how certain are you that it is a switch of some sort?

The EST controls spark advance and the like. It's part of the entire circuit which includes, among other things, the knock sensor, the pick up coil, the ignition control module, and the ignition coil. All must be in working order for the circuit to run properly. IIRC it is actually IN the ECM...

When was the last time you replaced any of these parts?

Seeing as how it it runs crappy in closed loop operation, the pick up coil or the ICM (ignition control module) may be your culprit.

Reverend Hearse
10-26-10, 10:31 PM
i have seen that a fisher body manual lists part locations, would that be helpful in this case? could it be the ignition control box? i have read that there is one under the dashboard...

the recluse
10-26-10, 10:54 PM
The problem is the circuit is not being completed somewhere along the line. There are a few things you can test (free) to rule out. Try having the ICM tested. Most auto parts stores can hook it up and tell you. You will have to remove it, though.

Reverend Hearse
10-26-10, 11:27 PM
The EST controls spark advance and the like. It's part of the entire circuit which includes, among other things, the knock sensor, the pick up coil, the ignition control module, and the ignition coil. All must be in working order for the circuit to run properly. IIRC it is actually IN the ECM...

When was the last time you replaced any of these parts?

Seeing as how it it runs crappy in closed loop operation, the pick up coil or the ICM (ignition control module) may be your culprit.

i havent replaced any of those parts, where is a good place to begin , or a way to test the parts in question? are all of these parts available new?

also if indeed the ICM needs replaced, what numbers are important when searching for a replacement? do they have to be reprogrammed for my car? ive been a body and paint guy for 14 years, but im not a mechanic by any means, sorry if im asking a lot of questions, its almost halloween and id really like to be able to drive my hearse, and im real handy with a test meter and a wrench...

the recluse
10-28-10, 12:16 AM
i havent replaced any of those parts, where is a good place to begin , or a way to test the parts in question? are all of these parts available new?

also if indeed the ICM needs replaced, what numbers are important when searching for a replacement? do they have to be reprogrammed for my car? ive been a body and paint guy for 14 years, but im not a mechanic by any means, sorry if im asking a lot of questions, its almost halloween and id really like to be able to drive my hearse, and im real handy with a test meter and a wrench...

All the parts can be had at a local parts house. The ICM is plug and play and can had for about $15 to $20, same with the ignition coil. It sits on top of the distributor cap underneath the the little "lump" in between the plug wires. The pick up coil is probably the last thing I would touch (although I think it could be the reason for the poor performance), as it costs the most. Some cases as much as $100 and is inside the distributor itself, pain in the ass...

You can test the ICM at the parts house for free (if they have the tester, of course, call and find out). It is under the cap, under the rotor button, and has 2 harnesses connected to it, one on each end.

Reverend Hearse
10-28-10, 08:11 PM
ok i was confused, i assumed the ICM was one of the boxes under the dash, ill have it tested tomorrow and report back with the results. would it cause a hot run problem though?

the recluse
10-28-10, 08:18 PM
Hot run? That would probably be the cooling system. What are the symptoms?

Reverend Hearse
10-28-10, 08:54 PM
IIRC it is actually IN the ECM...



what is IIRC?

drewsdeville
10-28-10, 08:55 PM
Internet speak for "If I remember correctly".

Reverend Hearse
10-28-10, 09:15 PM
thats a new one for me...

Reverend Hearse
10-28-10, 10:19 PM
so according to 2 different parts stores, there is no knock sensor on my motor, is this correct?

drewsdeville
10-28-10, 10:50 PM
Yup.

Reverend Hearse
10-29-10, 01:36 AM
Hot run? That would probably be the cooling system. What are the symptoms?

SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION, THE temp is ok, refer to post #3 , the vehicle does not run properly after reaching operation temp...

the recluse
10-30-10, 01:05 AM
when cold it runs great but when it gets warmed up it lugs down between shifts and you have to floor the gas pedal to get anywhere... it seems to be idling too high causing the motor to almost die out before it finally downshifts.

Right, this is why the E23 code shows up. In computer controlled vehicles you have two separate "modes" in which the engine runs. In open loop the engine runs with most of the sensors shut off and dumps a lot of fuel through the engine to get it to warm up (dumbed down explanation). Once it reaches operating temps, it goes into closed loop operation where it pools information from the various sensors to get the engine to run its best.

The problem you seem to be having is in closed loop operation. One of the sensors that the engine is calling on is faulty, whether it's a lose connection or a bad sensor or what not, and is not letting the engine run optimally.

The computer is indicating an Electronic Spark Timing fault (E23). This variable is configured by compiling info from a variety of sources such as the pick up coil, the ICM, ignition coil, etc, and relaying that back to the ECM. If any of the information received falls outside of the parameters encoded into the ECM, the ECM throws a "fault" code.

So, with the fault code in mind, you try to deduce all the possible sensors/parts that are controlled by or feed information to the computer that have to do with motor timing and spark. You already replaced the basics such as cap, rotor, plugs, and wires; so in cases where the problem is not fully evident I usually like to start from least expensive to most expensive, like pulling the ICM and having it tested (free to do).

You can probably rule out the ignition coil because the car runs good in open loop. I say this because if the coil was bad, the possibility remains that the car would run crappy from the start.

The ICM moderates the current from the coil, like points did back in the day, and is the next logical step in progression. It just so happens to be the cheapest also.

Pickup coils work with a vehicle's ignition system to regulate spark and communicate to fuel injectors. When one fails, it can have adverse effects on multiple vehicle systems including the engine and fuel system regulators. A pickup coil that has failed, or is about to, may also cause engine stalling and an inability to accelerate smoothly because the fuel injectors are not firing properly or on time with rest of the engine. Unfortunately, this one is a little tricky to tell without just replacing it and is the most expensive/time consuming item on the list for a novice mechanic.

I know it's long winded, but that is the nutshell of my thought process concerning your symptoms in your vehicle and why I'm telling you where to look :yup:

Good luck and report back...

Reverend Hearse
10-30-10, 02:01 AM
thanks for the detailed reply. your thought process is nearly identical to mine, i just didnt know where to begin. today i pulled the ICM and had it tested at a local parts store. it tested bad twice and good once. i bought a replacement. however i have a 84 seville that runs flawlessly , but is wrecked. when i looked at the pickup coil on my hearse, i saw rusty cruddy crap below it. i pulled both distributors , and will be swapping them tomorrow . the original dist on the hearse seems to have a lot of vertical play where the seville one has a very small amount of play. since the ICM is a non returnable part once installed , im going to hold off on installing it into the replacement distributor . ive got a day to do this before halloween, and will be busting my backside to see that it happens. thanks for all the help given so far, it is much more than i have been able to get locally. and much more than my chiltons books and my limited knowledge of vehicle electrical systems... ill let you know what happens...

Reverend Hearse
10-30-10, 08:54 PM
put the seville distributor intoday, the car now runs better than it ever has since ive owned it. cleared the codes and so far none have returned.

the recluse
10-30-10, 09:05 PM
put the seville distributor intoday, the car now runs better than it ever has since ive owned it. cleared the codes and so far none have returned.

Then it could have been either the ICM or pick up coil (or both). At any rate, enjoy.:thumbsup:

Reverend Hearse
10-30-10, 09:38 PM
thanks for all the help , i would have spent a lot of money on unnecessary parts had i not came here...

Reverend Hearse
10-31-10, 12:01 AM
eh, just my luck, after driving all afternoon is what i thought was a great running car, its now acting sluggigh between shifts, and throwing a E53 - Distributor Signal Interrupt. hmm.....

the recluse
10-31-10, 12:59 PM
Make sure you have the power wire (pink) fully pressed into the cap and the clip is not broken. Did you change the coil over from the old cap? Did you install the new ICM?

Somewhere the power signal to the distributor is getting cut and/or dropping off. This can either be the power wire or the dreaded pick up coil :ill:

Check those 2 items and get back

Reverend Hearse
11-02-10, 01:42 AM
power wire is fully pressed into the cap, and i used my new cap . i did not replace the ICM because i didnt see a need , since it was pulled from a perfectly tuned engine. codes 23 and 29 have showed up today. i saw a bit of crud in the flat weatherproof connector for the distributor, but we cleaned it with contact cleaner and a wire brush before reinstallation. i am getting the feeling its time for a 350 swap , or maybe my spare 425.....

Reverend Hearse
11-02-10, 01:44 AM
is there a way to fool the car into thinking its cold all the time? i imagine something like that would kill the gas milage, but thats not a worry to me. i just want to drive the stupid thing....

the recluse
11-02-10, 08:22 PM
I still say your looking at the pick up coil and at this point is worth the try and far less than a motor swap...

Reverend Hearse
11-02-10, 08:40 PM
Screw it , I'm done. I'd rather burn the stupid thing before I spend another dime on it. Today while driving , the car shut off and would not restart. I had fuel pressure , but no spark. When i removed the coil cover the wire to the positive side was burned . I replaced the coil with a brand new one , but still have no spark . It cranks over fine and has plenty of fuel . Not even a weak spark though .

the recluse
11-02-10, 10:27 PM
Screw it , I'm done. I'd rather burn the stupid thing before I spend another dime on it.

I hear this a lot when people talk about their Cadillac :lildevil:

Been there, said that myself :annoyed:

CODE 23...this still points to the pickup coil...

and the spark is controlled by the ICM...

What people fail to understand is that car parts that sit are failures waiting to happen. You've still not changed the parts that effected you from the beginning, only another distributor from a car that sat, which (by the way) made the car run right at first. Change all the parts listed, if nothing works, then burn the car.

the recluse
11-02-10, 11:15 PM
Check for blown fuses also...

Reverend Hearse
11-03-10, 09:38 PM
pulled the distributor again today. tested the pick up coil as per my service book , with a reading of infinity, meaning it is indeed good. im going to go ahead and replace it on payday however, along with the ICM ,and that other part that looks like a condenser. i really dont know what else could be causing the problems im having , so i figure ill start completely fresh....

the recluse
11-03-10, 10:15 PM
pulled the distributor again today. tested the pick up coil as per my service book , with a reading of infinity, meaning it is indeed good.

Did you spin the distributor while testing? The pick up coil breaks a magnetic field which relays info to the ICM and fuel system as to cam positioning and timing. Sometimes a bench test with a meter doesn't tell the whole story. If a resistor is burned up yet is dependent upon current to be active, then again, the bench test would say "good" to problem that would not show itself until electrified.

Like I said before, this one is not as easy to detect and can be a little tricky....

cadillac_al
11-05-10, 08:41 AM
I would buy a new distributor before i rebuilt the old one. I haven't priced out the difference but I think a new one is reasonable at around $150.

the recluse
11-05-10, 10:20 PM
I would buy a new distributor before i rebuilt the old one. I haven't priced out the difference but I think a new one is reasonable at around $150.

It cost me $380 to by my last one...

drewsdeville
11-05-10, 10:55 PM
It cost me $380 to by my last one...
???

I can get them from the local parts store here for $88 my cost, $125 yours, lifetime warranty.

the recluse
11-05-10, 11:01 PM
???

I can get them from the local parts store here for $88 my cost, $125 yours, lifetime warranty.

:gasp2: WOW they saw me coming...this was about 4 years ago though...

drewsdeville
11-05-10, 11:09 PM
Well, there could be differences in the dressing as well though.

The $88.$125 one is the housing, shaft/rotor mounting plate, gear, and ignition module. Doesn't come with a pickup coil, hall effect, cap, rotor or coil.

the recluse
11-05-10, 11:17 PM
Well, there could be differences in the dressing as well though.

The $88.$125 one is the housing, shaft/rotor mounting plate, gear, and ignition module. Doesn't come with a pickup coil, hall effect, cap, rotor or coil.

Mine was plug n play...

Reverend Hearse
11-06-10, 12:13 AM
today i got off early from work , so i hit the parts store. i bought all new internals for the distributor, and got it running great. even better than before. on the way home i threw a alternator belt and codes 12 , 23 , and 44 popped up . i have deciphered them to mean as follows,

E12 - No Distributor Signal

E23 - EST Signal Problem

E44 - Oxygen Sensor Signal Lean


would the lack of sufficent voltage cause these codes to pop up? i had about a 5 mile drive and th service now light came on. car still ran great, even with no charge.

Reverend Hearse
11-06-10, 11:21 AM
replaced the belt, cleared the codes, so far so good... but its a cadillac and it knows i got paid , something is bound to happen...

the recluse
11-06-10, 02:10 PM
today i got off early from work , so i hit the parts store. i bought all new internals for the distributor, and got it running great. even better than before.

You're welcome :p


...its a cadillac and it knows i got paid , something is bound to happen...

:histeric: I KNOW what you mean...

Reverend Hearse
11-06-10, 04:33 PM
thanks for all the help, if/when it breaks again, i know where to come ask...

Reverend Hearse
11-08-10, 12:44 AM
so i feel i have more of a transmission problem versus a motor problem now. when i n''D'' the motor lugs between 2-3 and 3-4 , and when slowing down it almost cuts the motor off before it down shifts. when driving in the ''3'' position, most of the issue is eliminated but not all. i only do in town driving, no interstates at all, so i never really get above 40 mph. i have a rebuilt 200-m i can pick up for next to nothing. but i want to know what your thoughts on it could be. the fluid looks fine and is at the proper level.

the recluse
11-08-10, 09:29 PM
Any codes? Possible shift solenoid or even shifter switch...I'll think on it...

Reverend Hearse
11-08-10, 11:05 PM
I got a code 30 today , ISC rpms out of range . What is the shift switch and solenoid ? Are they internal transmission parts? The 425/400 turbo swap is lookin better by the day , but I don't thunk I could afford the gas for it on a daily basis .....

the recluse
11-09-10, 07:08 PM
Ok, a code 30 might mean you need to run a TPS/ISC procedure on your car and may not be tranny related at all.

On some of these cars (I am not totally familiar with your earlier model) they have a shifter location switch, a switch that tells the ECM what gear or gear setting the trans is in. Sometimes these switches have a meltdown or need adjustment and don't relay that info back to the ECM. If the switch lets go in the R, D, 1, 2, or 3, the motor may either lag, stall, or not even start/run. Usually that will throw a specific code, even if it just needs to be adjusted.

The shift solenoid is a switch that actually actuates the transmission shifting. Sometimes they leak or short, causing erratic or laggy shift patterns. Again, this should throw a code.

IMO, I would run TPS/ISC procedures and see if that solves the problem....

Reverend Hearse
11-13-10, 04:48 AM
is there a link to the proper procedures to set the TPS and ISC?

Reverend Hearse
11-13-10, 05:59 AM
also i guess i should add, since resetting the codes the other day, no further codes have appeared, and istill have the lugging when in ''d'' but not nearly as bad in ''3'' , what is maximum speed in ''3''?

the recluse
11-13-10, 08:16 PM
how did you check the trans fluid level? The proper way is at operating temperature (warmed up), flat ground, while running, then check.

Reverend Hearse
11-13-10, 11:31 PM
on flat ground, running , in neutral, parking brake on....

the recluse
11-14-10, 10:13 PM
Ok, cool. I'm not sure on the TPS/ISC procedures for YOUR car. but they can't be that far off from the ones for the 4.9, although I may be wrong...

Procedure listed here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/213594-idle-speed-control-problem-90-deville.html

Reverend Hearse
11-19-10, 09:00 PM
getting the e29, fourth gear circuit shorted.... wheres the spot where i bash my head into th wall til im in a coma???

the recluse
11-19-10, 09:57 PM
Alright, that's prolly the shift solenoid...:ill:

Typical Caddy issue, get one thing fixed, and another thing falls apart :banghead:

Reverend Hearse
11-21-10, 11:51 AM
IS THAT something i can fix or do i need a transmission shop?

the recluse
11-21-10, 03:21 PM
I'd take it to a shop...:canttalk:

Reverend Hearse
11-21-10, 03:39 PM
Hmm..... 65 bucks an hour vs using my spare trans w/ shift kit... Decisions....

the recluse
11-21-10, 09:18 PM
Hmm..... 65 bucks an hour vs using my spare trans w/ shift kit... Decisions....

You didn't tell me you had one of those! :thepan:

Reverend Hearse
12-10-10, 11:29 PM
didnt want to pull it if i dont have to, still lugging down when hot, still slamming back through the gears when slowing down....

Reverend Hearse
01-16-11, 11:53 AM
So , what are these 2 parts, can they be easily removed? I believe one is the a.i.r. Pump? And is it possible to do away with the a/c and still have p/s?



EDIT* CANT GET THE PICS TO LOAD, ONE IS PULLY IS RAN BY THE P/S PUMP VIA A SHORT BELT, AND THE OTHER ITEM IS DIRECTLY UNDER THE ALTERNATOR, RAN BY A BELT BACK TO THE CRANK I BELIEVE, WHAT ARE THESE 2 ITEMS AND CAN THE BE REMOVED?

the recluse
01-16-11, 08:51 PM
Pics would be really helpful...:duck:

Reverend Hearse
01-21-11, 12:00 AM
I figured the air pump belt needs replaced, the adjuster bolt seems to be designed by the russians, as i cant seem to get to it no matter how i try, i have pulled the alternator to try and gain more room, but i really dont see and good way other than to remove the passenger side tire, certainly there is a simple way, what am i overlooking?

the recluse
01-21-11, 06:43 PM
...seems to be designed by the Russians, as i cant seem to get to it no matter how i try...

In Soviet Russia; bolt gets you :duck:

Sorry :bigroll:


i have pulled the alternator to try and gain more room, but i really dont see and good way other than to remove the passenger side tire, certainly there is a simple way, what am i overlooking?

You have to remove the tire. Behind it is a "flap" that you unbolt and move out of the way for easier access to all things south of the water pump....