: I can't GIVE this 2008 away.......Is there just NO market for this car?



trackbait
10-18-10, 06:13 PM
Geesh - Got a 2008 STS, loaded, 22k miles, 27,500 miles and/or 16 months full warranty REMAIN on it.

STS w/ N*, NAV, Leater, decked out. Narry a ding on it anywhere. Been running an ad on Craigslist for a couple of weeks and have gone from $27,000 down to $23,500 and NOT a single phone call one on it - nothing! I've had tremendous success selling 6 previous cars on CL from a C5 Vette to a worn out VW GTI!

Has this car just lost appeal? Is it that the CTS draws more of a crowd? Daymn... had I know I couldn't dump this pig at auction price, I would have never bought it.

Frustrating to say the least. How is it that a $60,000 car only just a scant 3 years later won't sell in the low 20's?

Unbelievable!

rzambrano
10-18-10, 06:16 PM
If I would have know this prior to Oct. 1 (before I purchase my 05), I would have been interested. Good luck with the sale.

05awdupstater
10-18-10, 06:22 PM
I was in the American car business for 30 years. I can tell you that the past 3 weeks has been the quietest I have ever seen for October. It ranges from new cars to the used commercial trucks I now sell. It is dead in the Northeast market right now.

I believe you have a giveaway price on your vehicle. I'll bet a Caddy dealer will give you at least that as it's actual cash value. The dealer near me offered me $21500 for my '07 V6 ,awd, navi, sunroof and luxury pkg.

chagrin falls
10-18-10, 07:04 PM
In July I traded an 06 STS Northstar 1SG with 18,000 miles on a 10 CTS Premium. The STS was perfect-corsa exhaust and up-graded Cadillac wheels. The dealer gave me $19k and change and sold it 4 weeks later for $21k. The deal on the CTS was too hard to pass - $5k off sticker, 0% financing and $1,500. from cadillac. I liked the STS but the new CTS runs circles around it. I agree with you- the resale value of any STS is absolutelly horrendous. The resale on the CTS seems to be much better but we will see how they hold-up in the long run. Good luck! Let us know what happens.

SHOWGIRL
10-18-10, 10:26 PM
In July I traded an 06 STS Northstar 1SG with 18,000 miles on a 10 CTS Premium. The STS was perfect-corsa exhaust and up-graded Cadillac wheels. The dealer gave me $19k and change and sold it 4 weeks later for $21k. The deal on the CTS was too hard to pass - $5k off sticker, 0% financing and $1,500. from cadillac. I liked the STS but the new CTS runs circles around it. I agree with you- the resale value of any STS is absolutelly horrendous. The resale on the CTS seems to be much better but we will see how they hold-up in the long run. Good luck! Let us know what happens.
----------------------
We loved the seats in the STS 2010 - but wanted a wagon - bought the 2010 CTS wagon - great car -seats miserably uncomfortable/rock hard & non-supportive - so we're stuck ! wish we had gotten the STS because of the seats alone !!! Hopefully your seats are better - but i was told the OEM seats are same in entire CTS=line(incl.wagon)....you'll love the 'ride' tho. Congratulations tho and enjoy - i'm sure you will :)

EChas3
10-18-10, 10:37 PM
Obama's 'Cash for Clunkers' destroyed a lot of value and drove used car prices up to the point that anyone who can buy, buys new. Back when the market ruled, a three year old STS with CPO could be had for 1/3 of list. A one year old STS could be had for half list. (~ 10,000 miles per year).

Who buys a car when they don't know when they will see a paycheck?

turnerbend
10-18-10, 11:01 PM
Geesh - Got a 2008 STS, loaded, 22k miles, 27,500 miles and/or 16 months full warranty REMAIN on it.

STS w/ N*, NAV, Leater, decked out. Narry a ding on it anywhere. Been running an ad on Craigslist for a couple of weeks and have gone from $27,000 down to $23,500 and NOT a single phone call one on it - nothing! I've had tremendous success selling 6 previous cars on CL from a C5 Vette to a worn out VW GTI!

Has this car just lost appeal? Is it that the CTS draws more of a crowd? Daymn... had I know I couldn't dump this pig at auction price, I would have never bought it.

Frustrating to say the least. How is it that a $60,000 car only just a scant 3 years later won't sell in the low 20's?
Unbelievable!
Check my post "
Cadillac over priced by 40% Read more at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/157395-cadillac-over-priced-40-a.html?ktrack=kcplinkRead more at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/157395-cadillac-over-priced-40-a.html?ktrack=kcplink

Saila22
10-18-10, 11:09 PM
Color, exterior/interior, wheels, Roof, etc. give me more info.....

Thanks!

EChas3
10-18-10, 11:44 PM
Geesh - Got a 2008 STS, loaded, 22k miles, 27,500 miles and/or 16 months full warranty REMAIN on it.

STS w/ N*, NAV, Leater, decked out. Narry a ding on it anywhere. Been running an ad on Craigslist for a couple of weeks and have gone from $27,000 down to $23,500 and NOT a single phone call one on it - nothing! I've had tremendous success selling 6 previous cars on CL from a C5 Vette to a worn out VW GTI!

Has this car just lost appeal? Is it that the CTS draws more of a crowd? Daymn... had I know I couldn't dump this pig at auction price, I would have never bought it.

Frustrating to say the least. How is it that a $60,000 car only just a scant 3 years later won't sell in the low 20's?

Unbelievable!

No V6 was $60,000 new. New MSRP was under $50,000 and it should have sold for $42,000 in 2007. Ask $21,000, take $18,000 if you can get it.

Sorry, my opinion.

Tourist
10-19-10, 01:57 AM
He said is was a V8, i.e. N*

stevenriz
10-19-10, 11:28 AM
I found mine on EBAY. Have you tried that site? Or cars.com vehix.com or any of those sites? Post a pic or two so we can see what you have... When you say loaded does it have 18" wheels? HUD? ACC? Blind spot detection?

Thunder Gray STS
10-20-10, 12:31 AM
I bought my 2008 in April 2009 from an independent dealer with 25,000 miles on it for $27,400, Thunder Gray, Northstar, Navi. No sunroof. I think it was a rental car when it was new. I know this doesn't help, but based on that, low 20's upper teens sounds about right. :(

EChas3
10-20-10, 01:26 AM
He said is was a V8, i.e. N*

Oops. Mea Culpa.

Still... Only the 1SG's top $60k. Coming off a 36-month lease, they sell for 1/3 msrp. 12-month old fleet cars or demos sell for 1/2 msrp.

The STS is a used car buyer's dream but a seller's nightmare. Fortunately, they are all a lot of fun to drive. Enjoy it as long as you can.

trackbait
10-20-10, 01:32 AM
Here's the CL Listing........

HERE IS THE LISTING FOR IT (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/2009532165.html)

I DID have a dealer call and offer 22k. Told him to pound salt.

I'll run it off a bridge w/ 3d IMAX cameras rolling before selling it that low.

bbshriver
10-20-10, 10:23 AM
FWIW, I saw a 2009 V8 with Nav and 18" chrome wheels 1SG I believe under 10k miles (I think it was 8k), CPO at a Cadillac dealer for around $30k.

I just checked AutoTrader, and the most expensive V8 2008 STS was still under $30k and at a a dealer.

rnkath08
10-20-10, 05:08 PM
when I was looking, I found mine on ebay and had it shipped to me...you don't mention color or much else...maybe throw an ad here, ebay and try your local media too and lastly I'd def ask at your local caddy shop

EChas3
10-21-10, 01:37 AM
I like the grille. Not so much the 'fender vents' or dash center stack trim. The older model's wood is more my preference. It is one year newer than my wife's 1SE, otherwise a base V8. 'S' tires suck for the low limiter. She got hers at one year old with 10,000 miles for under $30,000. I don't see it.

A Caddy dealer can sell it with CPO which gives a buyer almost 5-years factory warranty. $22k is a good offer if you don't like driving your STS anymore. I'm sorry to relate the market on these cars; it good for a buyer, but you can take a bath when selling.

Drive it hard. Use it up. Have fun! If you're determined to sell it yourself, buy a cheap transferrable warranty while you can and after that 'caveat emptor'. I plan on driving my 1SG until 1) CPO expires, 2)the next major repair and 3) I fall in love with another car.

trackbait
10-26-10, 03:34 PM
FINALLY! FINALLY! - One call - one sale! Got more than I expected. Squeaky clean deal too.

Lesson learned - NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I EVER own another Cadillac. No complaints on the ride...just re-sale SUCKS. Probably one of the most depreciating cars out there.
Not to mention 90% of my drive is stop and go for 3 miles to and from work.. Between stop signs, school zone and 3 traffic lights... Avg MPG -11.2

Good Riddance and so long to everyone here - - Another C6 Vette is next on the bucket list.........


OH yeah - nearly forgot -- One used prefect condition LOCKPICK **FOR SALE** - Make offer...... PM ONLY

KRSTS
10-26-10, 03:40 PM
:DI NEVER buy a car for the resale value. Don't care. I keep my cars at least 10 years. I love my STS!:thumbsup:

turnne
10-26-10, 04:42 PM
:DI NEVER buy a car for the resale value. Don't care. I keep my cars at least 10 years. I love my STS!:thumbsup:

I would disagree with that
Its a cost like anything else..and especially in a work market that has changed for many folks. For financial reasons..if you have to dump something to save money it should give you some security that you can at least do that without completely losing your shirt

That being said..generally speaking...it also seems to have a high bearing on what someone is willing to repair or when they decide to junkyard it because the costs to repair outweigh( or are close to) its repaired value


Warren

turnne
10-26-10, 04:54 PM
Oops. Mea Culpa.

Still... Only the 1SG's top $60k. Coming off a 36-month lease, they sell for 1/3 msrp. 12-month old fleet cars or demos sell for 1/2 msrp.

The STS is a used car buyer's dream but a seller's nightmare. Fortunately, they are all a lot of fun to drive. Enjoy it as long as you can.

Its been that way for at least 25 years...in fact the last decade has seen the American sedans trend down even more in resale

No secrets there
I am almost amazed at this thread. Honestly I thought the resale was a common fact that everyone knew...:hmm:
Its the major issue that many of my friends say stops them from buying an American car

That being said I agree with you...its a buyers dream. If you can deal with its idiosyncrasies and are able to adjust your expectations its a heck of a buy

But..being that its a car and not a family member you also need to know..IMO....when its time to trade it , call it quits etc

I believe these stickers of these cars are grossly inflated. I bought my fully loaded 1SG AWD at 4 years old ,off lease, for 27.5% of its sticker($67,200)

That being said...even with the inflated sticker...I don't know how GM made money of these when they weren't retaining any higher value when they came off lease...and it seems like 75% of them were lease vehicles when they were new

But hey better to let GM take the market hit than me
Can you imagine the person that bought one of these (not leased) and traded it in after 4 years?...what type of bath would that be
I am thinking hot and scalding


Warren

ahuyghe
10-26-10, 06:54 PM
Here's the CL Listing........

HERE IS THE LISTING FOR IT (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/2009532165.html)

I DID have a dealer call and offer 22k. Told him to pound salt.

I'll run it off a bridge w/ 3d IMAX cameras rolling before selling it that low.

I hear ya on that one. I have had my 07 STS AWD Black on Black 1sg pkg (30,000 miles) for sale for over 1 1/2 YEARS and only 2 calls! I started at 27,000 and lowered it to 24,000. I am now removing it from the market. It's like you say, There is no demand for it at all. I resigned to the fact that i'll sell my 03 Avalanche, Put a hitch on the STS so i can pull trailer when i have to. I only need one vehicle.
On another note, I thought of trading it on a CTS, but it's not even close to the comfort and performance level of the STS, and without the northstar, it just doesn't sound right without that V8 roar.

LazyPaddyB
10-26-10, 09:41 PM
I would have taken this off your hands if I would have seen this 2 weeks ago. I dont see you having a problem selling this for what you want, you'll just have to be patient. Good luck.

LazyPaddyB
10-26-10, 09:49 PM
FINALLY! FINALLY! - One call - one sale! Got more than I expected. Squeaky clean deal too.

Lesson learned - NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I EVER own another Cadillac. No complaints on the ride...just re-sale SUCKS. Probably one of the most depreciating cars out there.
Not to mention 90% of my drive is stop and go for 3 miles to and from work.. Between stop signs, school zone and 3 traffic lights... Avg MPG -11.2

Good Riddance and so long to everyone here - - Another C6 Vette is next on the bucket list.........


OH yeah - nearly forgot -- One used prefect condition LOCKPICK **FOR SALE** - Make offer...... PM ONLY

I am intersested in the lockpick, but I am unable to send you a message privte, I am a new member and this opion is not available to me. Please message me so I can buy this asap. I also need the info on it, your loc, price , etc.

turnne
10-27-10, 09:40 AM
I hear ya on that one. I have had my 07 STS AWD Black on Black 1sg pkg (30,000 miles) for sale for over 1 1/2 YEARS and only 2 calls! I started at 27,000 and lowered it to 24,000. I am now removing it from the market. It's like you say, There is no demand for it at all. .

That should tell you something. The future of this car..value wise...is just like the last body style
I also feel that when then discontinue the body style..be prepared for another sharp drop in value
From what I see there are HEAVY discounts on new dealer STS inventory. My dealer has a fulled loaded one for $22K off the sticker
A car selling for 30% off the sticker tells you where the value is going

I recall trading in my 02 STS last year with 117K. It was very clean and had been serviced at the same Cadillac dealer for the most part for the 45K miles I owned it
They gave me $3500 for it and I told the salesman that the 05 I was buying...when it got to be the same age and mileage.
I predicted it might be worth a little more $4500..or so...but in a nutshell I was going to have an automobile that was of the same value as the one I was trading in when its time came
There is market for these cars..it falls either at the person who will put money into it becuase they like it and don't care about its relative worth. Or..the larger market..that buys a very cheap luxury car but A. Can't afford the upkeep or B. Won't put the money into it because they know its worth
So..you end up with a lot of POS examples in the marketplace


Warren

sapien
10-27-10, 10:53 PM
I am considering selling mine too, just figured potential buyers may be holding back because of upcoming elections and waiting to see what happens with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts

but if anyone is on here lurking for a good deal, PM me :)
2005 STS 1SF N* V8 with under 30K miles, Moonstone Metallic, 18" OEM wheels, new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus on the rears, E&G grille, 35% tint, Nav, lockpick

EChas3
10-27-10, 11:14 PM
Its been that way for at least 25 years...in fact the last decade has seen the American sedans trend down even more in resale

No secrets there
I am almost amazed at this thread. Honestly I thought the resale was a common fact that everyone knew...:hmm:
That being said...even with the inflated sticker...I don't know how GM made money of these when they weren't retaining any higher value when they came off lease...and it seems like 75% of them were lease vehicles when they were new...

But hey better to let GM take the market hit than me
Can you imagine the person that bought one of these (not leased) and traded it in after 4 years?...what type of bath would that be
I am thinking hot and scalding

There are those that used to get a new Caddy every year. Then every two... Now, they lease...

Some of them just financed (lease or borrow, no matter) at MSRP!

But most dinosaurs eventually died out...

Can GM reverse the trend? They are pinning a lot on a car that only a few people really want (at its real cost). Will it take more than a $5,000 subsidy to move Volts? It would still cost $35,000 and electricity costs twice gas.

RippyPartsDept
10-28-10, 12:04 AM
looks like i'll be able to get into one of these beauties sooner than i thought!

(oh the advantages of not having enough income to buy these cars new)

[/silver-lining]

turnne
10-28-10, 10:58 AM
There are those that used to get a new Caddy every year. Then every two... Now, they lease...

Some of them just financed (lease or borrow, no matter) at MSRP!

But most dinosaurs eventually died out...

Can GM reverse the trend? They are pinning a lot on a car that only a few people really want (at its real cost). Will it take more than a $5,000 subsidy to move Volts? It would still cost $35,000 and electricity costs twice gas.

and there are those that buy Beluga caviar as well...but thats falls into the price no object, very unique, marketed for small volume, niche type of item

Cadillac has never made that type of product in my lifetime

I think those dinosaurs that you mentioned were gone more than 20 years ago.
Cadillac was just very slow to react to a market that had completely changed

As for the Volt...there is a lot of hype and it seems to be a sink or swim situation for GM and that car
As for people wanting it..at its real cost...did they really want the STS at its real cost
I would say no for two reasons
1. It was never a big seller
2. There was so much subsidy( inflated residuals) in the leases

Run some leases numbers on an STS and see what the car is actually selling for( at lease end) vs the written lease residual...its like $20k!!!
That is one heck of a subsidy that GM is making on these

But word on the street is..if you buy a Cadillac ..lease it or buy it used

I do feel somewhat bad as I see those that bought these new and the surprise they get...such as this thread starter...when they go to sell/trade in.
Though..I have to say again..I am not certain why they would be surprised..hasn't it been that was for a generation now?

Can they reverse this trend?....dunno
Its been like this for at least 2 decades..in fact it seems to have slid downward a bit. No doubt helped by GM's financial situation pushing down the public's perception
I am very satisfied with my 05 1SG AWD both for what I paid and its now prevailing value....was it anywhere near the top of my list( in this class of car)?
No...but it was the least inexpensive by at least 5K..or at the price I paid 25% less to buy. 25% less purchase price for a car is substantial

Do I understand it will likely be worth $5K at 7-8yr and 100K
Yes...and I will make the decision..if repairs etc are needed at that time..just like I did with the 02



Warren

trackbait
10-28-10, 12:21 PM
Here's WHY my car FINALLY sold.

The guy that bought it was a market specific wholesaler with Caddy's being his specialty. He was on the hunt for one as a customer RENTED AN STS in California for a couple of weeks and liked it. Thus, the actual new owner has NO CLUE what he's getting into. I sold it for $2300 less than I paid for it (over 15 months) and was daymn happy to get that on the ONE AND ONLY CALL I got on it over 6-8 weeks of constant updating of CL ad's to keep it at the top of the list.

These cars ARE dinosaurs - there is NO question about that. In a few years you wont even see these land yachts around.. well maybe they will make it to the 'hood' with 24's riding on rubber bands and lifited with hydraulics.

The V8 is or soon will be history except for retro new muscle cars - Challenger, Vette, Mustangs etc.

I was very lucky to have sold for what I got. And....I strickly abided by "A bird in hand......" rule - whatever it took, the one and only call was going to get that dog from me.

bbshriver
10-28-10, 01:24 PM
Here's WHY my car FINALLY sold.

The guy that bought it was a market specific wholesaler with Caddy's being his specialty. He was on the hunt for one as a customer RENTED AN STS in California for a couple of weeks and liked it. Thus, the actual new owner has NO CLUE what he's getting into. I sold it for $2300 less than I paid for it (over 15 months) and was daymn happy to get that on the ONE AND ONLY CALL I got on it over 6-8 weeks of constant updating of CL ad's to keep it at the top of the list.

These cars ARE dinosaurs - there is NO question about that. In a few years you wont even see these land yachts around.. well maybe they will make it to the 'hood' with 24's riding on rubber bands and lifited with hydraulics.

The V8 is or soon will be history except for retro new muscle cars - Challenger, Vette, Mustangs etc.

I was very lucky to have sold for what I got. And....I strickly abided by "A bird in hand......" rule - whatever it took, the one and only call was going to get that dog from me.

STS is a land yacht? That's amusing, I think of it as a small-ish mis-size car.

Midnight
10-28-10, 01:44 PM
I don't see any reason for you to be trashing the car. You paid under $2k a year to drive a nice luxury car. Many people pay more to drive a Civic. Be happy.

EChas3
10-28-10, 11:25 PM
There is a huge misunderstanding about the 'rich'. They can't be identified by tracking the families making over $250k, $2.5 million or even $25 million a year. The 'rich' have no concern of personal wealth. I like that car, house, resort... I'll take it.

You bought lunch? I'll buy the Cadillacs! Would your AA like one, too?

The STS is just a midsize car. Now that there will be truck CAFE standards, the automobile age is over.

turnne
10-29-10, 09:59 AM
There is a huge misunderstanding about the 'rich'. They can't be identified by tracking the families making over $250k, $2.5 million or even $25 million a year. The 'rich' have no concern of personal wealth. I like that car, house, resort... I'll take it.

You bought lunch? I'll buy the Cadillacs! Would your AA like one, too?

The STS is just a midsize car. Now that there will be truck CAFE standards, the automobile age is over.

I would tend to think that type of mentality changes with the times.
Right now I would say there are a lot of people who have money..but are not spending it
Yes..I do understand you have the guy that will buy the 180K plus Mercedes S63 and not bat an eye
But I still think that traffic is down significantly

Luxury retailers like Neiman Marcus have seen sales drop more than 1/3 since a few years ago( 2007)
Some of that may have been that some lines of credit dried up...but some of it would have to be that their core clientele is being more conservative than they were in better economic times

This is attributed to the success of the Hyundai Genesis...people want luxury...and it happens to be 10-15 less than anything else in its class.
Actually..in theory should be a great time for Cadillac as well.....whether it be a lease payment, new retail purchase, or used...Cadillac is always less expensive than the Germans or Lexus
Of course on a retail purchase there is that resale worry with the Cadillac so in the end the car could actually cost you a lot more

And of course you have seen/read about all the Yacht repossessions in the last year
Though that may be a case of that line of credit running out vs having millions in the bank


Warren

turnne
10-29-10, 10:03 AM
I don't see any reason for you to be trashing the car. You paid under $2k a year to drive a nice luxury car. Many people pay more to drive a Civic. Be happy.

I think he feels very fortunate to have received what he did....sounds like he got lucky if he indeed paid under 2K a year to drive it

I don't think he is trashing it..he is just talking reality

I do disagree with his dinosaur statement though
Well..as it applies to extinction that is. Based on the value of the cars..or lack of......there will be those in areas of town with 24" rims , custom paint, and on buy here/pay here lots

But like I said earlier in this thread....what about that has changed in the last 20 years?

Wasn't that always the case?


Warren

Greg00coupe
10-29-10, 12:05 PM
Track......... I understand your points BUT you said you are off to buy a C6...... I have a C5 and think you may have had a Corvette. Look at the resale numbers on Corvettes these days. Lowest production year for Vettes out of Bowling Green yet......... There are $60K vettes going for $30K two years later.

Just like Harleys... you don't see anyone but boomers driving Vettes and HDs. What Cadillac is going through is just starting for Vettes and HD as we boomers........aw face the inevidable!!!!!!!

turnne
10-29-10, 04:56 PM
Wow...I didn't realize vettes slid like that in value
Buy a Porsche gentleman!!!

By the way I just thought about some the original poster never said what he paid...just what he had it listed for on CL
So the blurb about driving a Honda Civic costing more may not apply


Warren

mike sts
10-30-10, 01:09 PM
I bought my sts because it was much less than a bmw or mercedes my car had a list of 66000 when new i bought it for 32000 2 year old with 13000 miles on it nwith 100000 mi bumper to bumper warranty germans were much more. I did not compare it to lexus or acura, the newer cadillacs are meant to compete with the germans while buick seems to be positioned to compete with lexus


I would tend to think that type of mentality changes with the times.
Right now I would say there are a lot of people who have money..but are not spending it
Yes..I do understand you have the guy that will buy the 180K plus Mercedes S63 and not bat an eye
But I still think that traffic is down significantly

Luxury retailers like Neiman Marcus have seen sales drop more than 1/3 since a few years ago( 2007)
Some of that may have been that some lines of credit dried up...but some of it would have to be that their core clientele is being more conservative than they were in better economic times

This is attributed to the success of the Hyundai Genesis...people want luxury...and it happens to be 10-15 less than anything else in its class.
Actually..in theory should be a great time for Cadillac as well.....whether it be a lease payment, new retail purchase, or used...Cadillac is always less expensive than the Germans or Lexus
Of course on a retail purchase there is that resale worry with the Cadillac so in the end the car could actually cost you a lot more

And of course you have seen/read about all the Yacht repossessions in the last year
Though that may be a case of that line of credit running out vs having millions in the bank


Warren

trackbait
10-30-10, 01:41 PM
I guess in part, my thinking on the STS being or going to be a dinosaur is the CTS is going to be the mainstream Cadillac. It gets all the marketing, press, reviews, write-ups. About the only place one can get exposure to the later model STS's are via rent cars. They seem very popular for that market segment. In my driving around, one always tend to notice the same/similar car that you have. I easily see 25 CTS's for every STS I see around the DFW area.

I'm not bashing the STS, but seeing dwindling numbers and the push from advertising media towards the CTS can only spell doom for the STS. In a couple of years, you say STS, and you'll get a stare like a deer in the headlights.

And, for the curious, I bought it May of 09 for 28k.... And -- YES - It began as a rent car.

On Vettes.... one has to be discerning on picking the right vette and how much one has to pay for them. I seriously doubt 5 years from now, you say the word Vette and get that glassy eyed stare. I had a 99 I got for $21500 in 2005 - kept 18 months and got $21,000 for it. Then bought a 2000 Nassau Blue -kept the mileage low and pristine condition. Kept that one for nearly 4 years and sold it for $20,500. Tell me about depreciation again???

EChas3
10-30-10, 03:53 PM
Vette's are one of the few cars that can appreciate. Sounds like a great next car (but then I might need a truck, too). :)

turnne
11-01-10, 11:08 AM
Vette's are one of the few cars that can appreciate. Sounds like a great next car (but then I might need a truck, too). :)

Porsches seem to do very good as well...especially considering the original prices
Though..at a lower price point that Nissan GTR seems to have quite a bit of buzz...though those may have actually retailed for more than their actual stickers originally


Warren

turnne
11-01-10, 11:15 AM
I bought my sts because it was much less than a bmw or mercedes my car had a list of 66000 when new i bought it for 32000 2 year old with 13000 miles on it nwith 100000 mi bumper to bumper warranty germans were much more. I did not compare it to lexus or acura, the newer cadillacs are meant to compete with the germans while buick seems to be positioned to compete with lexus

Both the Lexus and Acura products...as well an Infinti are more many than the STS on the used market...buying an STS is $5-7K less expensive..or perhaps 20-25% less than the other makes you mentioned

That being said Buick does not have car that competes with a Lexus GS or LS.
ES..I would say yes.
As far as Cadillac competing with the germans...they have positioned the STS for that battle for a very long time...to me they are still not in the same "zip" code. However the 05+ model is a heck of a lot more in the right city than the older body style was
For the german car lover....who can afford what the drive and feel they want and is willing to pay for it. The STS would not fit the bill
It is a lot less expensive though...so if you have some flexibility..its a great value


Warren

Greg00coupe
11-01-10, 01:11 PM
Modern Vettes DO NOT appreciate!!!! A c5 or c6 drops like any other car. There is a BIG difference between a '67 big block and a modern vette regarding value. There are deals out there if you buy in the fall and sell in the spring. But with GM discounting new vettes $10K or more they are just a commodity domestic like the rest of the American brands.

turnne
11-01-10, 08:49 PM
Thanks for the update and information
I have seen advertisements for Vettes in the paper for 10K off the sticker
That didn't seem to "add up" with the statements that Vettes appreciate


Warren

mike sts
11-01-10, 09:37 PM
I like rooting for the underdog. I drove a lacrose and liked it, it definetely competes with the lexus es or acura TL, i think they missed the mark with the regal a bit as far as competing with the IS or tsx, we will have to see what comes down the pike for a large sedan for buick. As far as caddilac the CTS and SRX are hits i feel they compete well with their german counterparts. We will have to see how the next mid size caddi does. I hope in my lifetime GM overtakes the japenese and germans.


Both the Lexus and Acura products...as well an Infinti are more many than the STS on the used market...buying an STS is $5-7K less expensive..or perhaps 20-25% less than the other makes you mentioned

That being said Buick does not have car that competes with a Lexus GS or LS.
ES..I would say yes.
As far as Cadillac competing with the germans...they have positioned the STS for that battle for a very long time...to me they are still not in the same "zip" code. However the 05+ model is a heck of a lot more in the right city than the older body style was
For the german car lover....who can afford what the drive and feel they want and is willing to pay for it. The STS would not fit the bill
It is a lot less expensive though...so if you have some flexibility..its a great value


Warren

turnne
11-02-10, 08:59 AM
I like rooting for the underdog. I drove a lacrose and liked it, it definetely competes with the lexus es or acura TL, i think they missed the mark with the regal a bit as far as competing with the IS or tsx, we will have to see what comes down the pike for a large sedan for buick. As far as caddilac the CTS and SRX are hits i feel they compete well with their german counterparts. We will have to see how the next mid size caddi does. I hope in my lifetime GM overtakes the japenese and germans.

Two questions for you

Did you drive the Lexus ES and Acura TL?

When you say underdog...would you be willing to spend the extra few thousand it would cost you, in lost resale if you were buying new....and buy the Lacrosse over the other two?

Personally I am not a fan of the CTS...I don't think its a bad car. It just seems about 10K too high from a sticker perspective
I had a service loaner for a week with a 50K sticker. It felt like a 40K car. It seemed no nicer to me than a TL...which is 10K less. It was also 6K more than a V8 Hyundai Genesis...which is a much more equipped car
I have never driven the current SRX..just the older bodystyle...so I cannot comment on that one
The older body was actually ok...again especially for their used car pricing in the market


Warren

mike sts
11-02-10, 06:50 PM
The argument in resale can be offset by the amount the americans cars are discounted when there are factory rebates on top of dealer discounts. The jap and germans dont seem to discount as much. I would also hope as GM rolls out there newer more competetive platforms resale value will increase AS LONG AS THEY PROVE RELIABLE AND DURABLE NO ONE WILL SPEND TOP DOLLAR FOR A USED CAR WITH POOR RELIABILITY. I drove the TL thought it was fine but liked the lacroose better better than the the TL and the ES. lacroose was better in styling, better handling than the ES. The TL is a little weird in styling but nice. RE the CTS I lked the interior for the most part except for the NAV screen I like the STS better here and the STS has more features. The STS v8 blows away the direct injected v6 in my opion much smoother. A friend has a BMW 325 and both she and I agreed the CTS was right up there with the BMW. If I were to by a japanese performance LUX sedan I found the infinity g class and M class the best of the bunch.

turnne
11-02-10, 07:05 PM
Thats really not true. You will pay more to buy one of those...but after 2 years of age the difference is made up and then some in lost resale

On the lease side..the cars with great resale value have some great lease rates
Reasoning being they are worth more after the 36 month term
Leasing 101 says a lease by definition is paying for the portion of the car that you use...check the lease rates of the BMW 3 series, Acura TL and Lexus ES
They are all very reasonable to lease for this reason

When you say lease rates that are very close in term and payment for a car of the same class...and those cars vary greatly in resale after the 36 month term..you know the manufacturer has to subsidize these greatly just to move cars
Case in point..the Cadillac STS

I am glad you like the Lacrosse. I hope it does significantly better than the Lucerne does in value retention. A loaded V8 Lucerne can be bought quite inexpensively after 3-4 years. A competing Lexus that was about the same price, new, is thousands more on the used car market

As I mentioned before the CTS, in my mind, is 10K too expensive

Warren

Slee_Stack
11-10-10, 10:19 AM
I usually only buy cars with poor resale value. Since I'm buying 2-5 year old vehicles anyway, the re resale costs are fairly irrelevant by the time I get rid of them.

I bought a 3 year old '99 corvette for 22500. That was roughly a 50% dump off MSRP in 3 years. Way to hold onto resale value corvette! I drove it for 3 years and sold it for $17500. That's a 20% dump of what I bought it for. Admiitedly, $5000 for 3 years of driving it was a fair value to me. HAd I bought it new, I would have been bent over...hard!

So put down the crack pipe. All cars DEPRECIATE. There are exceedingly few exceptions and those exceptions are collector's items that typical do NOT get driven.

By the way, why would anyone expect to get any great price for any item in this market? Are houses selling like hotcakes all fo a sudden???

turnne
11-10-10, 07:04 PM
Is there a connection in the housing market and the automobile market?

When houses were going up like gangbusters GM was still falling in a hole and cars were still depreciating.
Yes..all cars depreciate...some a whole lot more quickly than others

Depending on your desire to be "bent over" that could have a lot of bearing on what you buy
And there are a lot of different degrees( within the same car class) of being "bent over"

But ..I can relate this to housing as you did
Even in this housing market within the same city...real estate "depreciation" varies a lot by the location of the house
The older more established neighborhoods have done significantly better than the new developments in the housing crisis

So just because you bought a house doesn't mean you got "bent over" to the same degree in the same city

Would you have bought a house knowing it was going to depreciate more...even though your plan was on never moving?

Warren

EChas3
11-10-10, 10:49 PM
Different markets will share the influence of economic expectations. The anology is reasonable. Economic uncertainty can cause very different potential buyers to demonstrate similar caution.

turnne
11-11-10, 10:55 AM
Different markets will share the influence of economic expectations. The anology is reasonable. Economic uncertainty can cause very different potential buyers to demonstrate similar caution.

I am not sure that argument held true
When housing was going through the roof these cars were still depreciating like crazy.
Has the depreciation gotten more rapid due to the current economic situation..its quite possible for all makes this is the case. The scale of the "hit" I am sure is still the same as it ever was...just possibly and even larger amount

However...when housing was rising 20-25% a year( in some areas) these Caddy's were still falling in value quickly


Warren

bbshriver
11-11-10, 12:11 PM
Just like Harleys... you don't see anyone but boomers driving Vettes and HDs. What Cadillac is going through is just starting for Vettes and HD as we boomers........aw face the inevidable!!!!!!!

Keeping things in perspective, I don't know many people younger than boomers that can afford a new Corvette.

Regarding HD, that's simply not true.

I have a harley (at 25)
My brother has one (35)
one of my good friends has one (25)
A cousin has one (30-ish)
brother's friend has one (mid 30's)
on the Harley forum I frequent, there are plenty of 20's and 30's on there.

However keep in mind something VERY relevant to Harley. The cheapest new Harley starts at $8k. An expensive Harley is more like $30k. Japanese "cruiser" motorcycles (fake Harley) $10k will often be a premium one, with low end ones going down near $3k. Plus, Harley has much stronger residual value. It's VERY difficult to find a decent Harley of any year for under $4k. In a similar Japanese bike, $4k would get you one nearly new, and an older one can easily be found for under $1k. Ergo, Harley attracts people with more disposable income... "Boomers" are starting to retire/enter mid-life crisis, kids are out of the house etc... they are the perfect target market for an expensive 3rd or 4th vehicle.


Wow...I didn't realize vettes slid like that in value
Buy a Porsche gentleman!!!
One of my co-workers recently bought a 2010 Z06 with 500 miles on it at a $30,000 discount to a new one.

However regarding your Porsche comparison, I don't see them holding value THAT much better. In 2003 my mom bought a 2000 911 Carerra 4 convertible that stickered at ~$110,000 for $50,000.
In 2005 my dad was looking for a new daily driver, and one of the contenders was a 2004 Cayenne S that retailed for over $80k, and had a used price of $48k.

Long term, Porsche is very interesting. I have a 1973 911. A pristine 1969-1973 911 can be had for $20-30k... Try finding a pristine Corvette of that generation at that price. Even though the Vette was a cheaper car new.


Modern Vettes DO NOT appreciate!!!! A c5 or c6 drops like any other car. There is a BIG difference between a '67 big block and a modern vette regarding value. There are deals out there if you buy in the fall and sell in the spring.
You have to look for the right vette, over a long period. I have noticed a trend that the C4 generation ZR-1 seems to have bottomed out and-or started to appreciate. Same thing with the 1996 Grand Sport.

Regarding incentive spending, etc take a look at this
http://blog.truecar.com/2010/10/15/luxe-brands-thriving-in-weak-economy/

Cadillac is higher than other brands, but has made a significant decrease, and is certainly not out of line with others. Note their average transaction price is effectively the same as Mercedes.

turnne
11-12-10, 09:53 AM
Keeping things in perspective, I don't know many people younger than boomers that can afford a new Corvette.

Regarding HD, that's simply not true.

I have a harley (at 25)
My brother has one (35)
one of my good friends has one (25)
A cousin has one (30-ish)
brother's friend has one (mid 30's)
on the Harley forum I frequent, there are plenty of 20's and 30's on there.

However keep in mind something VERY relevant to Harley. The cheapest new Harley starts at $8k. An expensive Harley is more like $30k. Japanese "cruiser" motorcycles (fake Harley) $10k will often be a premium one, with low end ones going down near $3k. Plus, Harley has much stronger residual value. It's VERY difficult to find a decent Harley of any year for under $4k. In a similar Japanese bike, $4k would get you one nearly new, and an older one can easily be found for under $1k. Ergo, Harley attracts people with more disposable income... "Boomers" are starting to retire/enter mid-life crisis, kids are out of the house etc... they are the perfect target market for an expensive 3rd or 4th vehicle.


One of my co-workers recently bought a 2010 Z06 with 500 miles on it at a $30,000 discount to a new one.

However regarding your Porsche comparison, I don't see them holding value THAT much better. In 2003 my mom bought a 2000 911 Carerra 4 convertible that stickered at ~$110,000 for $50,000.
In 2005 my dad was looking for a new daily driver, and one of the contenders was a 2004 Cayenne S that retailed for over $80k, and had a used price of $48k.

Long term, Porsche is very interesting. I have a 1973 911. A pristine 1969-1973 911 can be had for $20-30k... Try finding a pristine Corvette of that generation at that price. Even though the Vette was a cheaper car new.


You have to look for the right vette, over a long period. I have noticed a trend that the C4 generation ZR-1 seems to have bottomed out and-or started to appreciate. Same thing with the 1996 Grand Sport.

Regarding incentive spending, etc take a look at this
http://blog.truecar.com/2010/10/15/luxe-brands-thriving-in-weak-economy/

Cadillac is higher than other brands, but has made a significant decrease, and is certainly not out of line with others. Note their average transaction price is effectively the same as Mercedes.

Re:..the Porche -Corvette deal
As I recall , in another thread you said cars with higher prices always lose percentage of value faster
I disagreed then..as you recall

And case in point..here is case where that is not the case

As for Cadillac vs Mercedes transaction prices
And I am speaking E class vs STS
The majority of both of them are leased...so an actual retail transaction is in the minority. Were you talking lease payments?
I would say the lease payments for the STS..the programs I remember anyway were a bit lower than an E class by $50-75 a month and required less upfront money. They priced the Cadillac lease like it was a BMW 3 series in resale. GM had inflated the residual so high on the cars that there was about $15-20K difference in the lease buyout versus what the cars were actually selling for. Clearly they were doing that likely just to move cars....but as I have said before I don't how they made any money on these with those transactions.
That being said..there is no way...a 3-5 year STS is worth as much as an E class of a similar equipment level
or I would have bought one

Warren

trackbait
11-13-10, 01:18 PM
I bought a 3 year old '99 corvette for 22500...... I drove it for 3 years and sold it for $17500. So put down the crack pipe.

You didn't say when you got your 99 vette, but if w/in the last 3 or 4 years and you paid 22k for a 99 (unless it had every option they could throw on it and very low miles) you got screwed!

I bought a 2000 Nassau Blue - with every option you could get, 19k miles in 2006 for $21,500 - kept it 3 1/2 years and sold it for $19,750 - so it cost me under $50 a month to own that car!

turnne
11-14-10, 09:13 AM
You didn't say when you got your 99 vette, but if w/in the last 3 or 4 years and you paid 22k for a 99 (unless it had every option they could throw on it and very low miles) you got screwed!

I bought a 2000 Nassau Blue - with every option you could get, 19k miles in 2006 for $21,500 - kept it 3 1/2 years and sold it for $19,750 - so it cost me under $50 a month to own that car!

LOL...I love it $50.00 a month!!

On another note..you have to remember on this forum that a lot of people have overpaid for their cars...they seem to reference the "book"
The reality is that an STS is not worth anywhere close to book...so using that as a reference point makes no sense
Unless its just for the dealer to play the game to
1. Bend you over
2. Over allow for your trade in


Warren

ddgm
11-14-10, 09:30 PM
A 3 year old '99 corvette would have been bought in 2001 or 2002
You didn't say when you got your 99 vette, but if w/in the last 3 or 4 years and you paid 22k for a 99 (unless it had every option they could throw on it and very low miles) you got screwed!

I bought a 2000 Nassau Blue - with every option you could get, 19k miles in 2006 for $21,500 - kept it 3 1/2 years and sold it for $19,750 - so it cost me under $50 a month to own that car!

nguyendot
11-15-10, 10:47 AM
I had a 2006 Infrared RWD 1SG that was $59,975 sticker (of course, I didn't pay that). Kept it for 30 months and with the 85 page service report eating away at me I decided to get rid of the clunker. The STS is just overpriced, under performing, and undersized for its weight. The new CTS does run circles around it easily, in just about every way.

The dealer offered me $21k for my trade in, so being only $1,000 upside down on my loan I took the trade in and ran like a bat out of hell. Ordered a RWD DI 2009 CTS with the Sport package. I dumped all the toys this time since every "toy" in the STS that I paid for before broke. I mean come on - my STS had the Nav system and amps replaced three times, and it still didn't work. My PCM was replaced twice for the engine not wanting to start or stalling out. That's just a few pages of my service log.

The reason the STS sells so poorly is because no one wants it. Supply and demand. Theres tons of used models, and no demand. The car sucked. I liked mine, but ultimately it wasn't a great car considering the competition. If it were a "great" or even "good" car, Cadillac wouldn't be killing off the line this year and replacing it.

turnne
11-15-10, 09:44 PM
I had a 2006 Infrared RWD 1SG that was $59,975 sticker (of course, I didn't pay that). Kept it for 30 months and with the 85 page service report eating away at me I decided to get rid of the clunker. The STS is just overpriced, under performing, and undersized for its weight. The new CTS does run circles around it easily, in just about every way.

The dealer offered me $21k for my trade in, so being only $1,000 upside down on my loan I took the trade in and ran like a bat out of hell. Ordered a RWD DI 2009 CTS with the Sport package. I dumped all the toys this time since every "toy" in the STS that I paid for before broke. I mean come on - my STS had the Nav system and amps replaced three times, and it still didn't work. My PCM was replaced twice for the engine not wanting to start or stalling out. That's just a few pages of my service log.

The reason the STS sells so poorly is because no one wants it. Supply and demand. Theres tons of used models, and no demand. The car sucked. I liked mine, but ultimately it wasn't a great car considering the competition. If it were a "great" or even "good" car, Cadillac wouldn't be killing off the line this year and replacing it.

For what its worth on the used car market I think the STS is a good car.
Its not pn par with the cars it was designed to compete against...but thats why its so much cheaper on the used car market

I was under the general impression that buying Cadillac sedan new was not a good bet in regard to depreciation among luxury cars

Sounds like what you received in trade was a little high..however on a trade situation they can inflate the new car to reflect the value that the trade in does not have.
That being said..I can honestly say I prefer a loaded 1SG STS to a CTS
I think they are definitely over priced when new. I am just not a fan of the "light" feel that the CTS has..it makes me think of cars that are at least 10K less expensive....the Acura TL comes to mind

In fact for the CTS pricing..the Hyundai Genesis V8 ...at mid 40's..is a nicer car and a better buy

If you don't like the "Hyundai" name...then look at the Lexus...if you want more of a drivers car then there is the Infinti and more so the Germans


Warren

RippyPartsDept
11-15-10, 10:13 PM
i too prefer the sts over the cts (preferably in northstar)

ryannel2003
11-16-10, 10:05 AM
The market for the current STS has always been down compared to the previous generation Seville. Cadillac tried hard to market this car against the 5-Series and E-Class (they also tried with the Seville STS but nobody really took them seriously) and what Cadillac doesn't realize is if the 5-Series driver wants that car... he/she most likely isn't going to shop around for another car. Cadillac basically shot themselves in the foot because the clientele who was buying the previous gen Seville didn't like the look of the new STS and moved on elsewhere. It also didn't help the STS had about the same amount of room as the last generation CTS and looked like a bloated, melted version of that car but cost $20k more. The STS is a good car, but the market never took notice and thats why the car has failed. Sales of this car peaked in '05 at 33k units, while the Seville was consistently selling 35-45k units a year since the '92 model year was introduced.

Cadillac should have made a new formula for the STS instead of trying to imitate BMW. It has never worked before, and it most likely won't ever work.

bbshriver
11-16-10, 12:20 PM
Indeed, it seems to escape Cadillac that they can't out-BMW BMW.

I don't like BMW cars that I have driven, so the BMW characteristics of my STS (hard seats, firm ride, small size) are what I like least.

I'd actually rather have a DTS, but can't stomach the idea of owning a FWD vehicle.

ryannel2003
11-16-10, 12:56 PM
I will most likely replace my STS with a DTS Performance. I too am not the biggest fan of FWD but the DTS is a much nicer place to be (IMO) than the STS. The Performance version really helps turn the standard floaty DTS into something a little easier to handle. No comparison to the RWD STS in handling though.

nguyendot
11-16-10, 06:02 PM
For what its worth on the used car market I think the STS is a good car.
Its not pn par with the cars it was designed to compete against...but thats why its so much cheaper on the used car market

I was under the general impression that buying Cadillac sedan new was not a good bet in regard to depreciation among luxury cars

Sounds like what you received in trade was a little high..however on a trade situation they can inflate the new car to reflect the value that the trade in does not have.
That being said..I can honestly say I prefer a loaded 1SG STS to a CTS
I think they are definitely over priced when new. I am just not a fan of the "light" feel that the CTS has..it makes me think of cars that are at least 10K less expensive....the Acura TL comes to mind

In fact for the CTS pricing..the Hyundai Genesis V8 ...at mid 40's..is a nicer car and a better buy

If you don't like the "Hyundai" name...then look at the Lexus...if you want more of a drivers car then there is the Infinti and more so the Germans


Warren

They didn't inflate the price of the car - my dad was the salesman and I used the original invoice. Got GMS and end of year deals with 72months 0%. Also, it was a year ago so 21k wasn't horrible for the trade in value. They sold it for 25k two weeks later.

As for the CTS feeling lighter - its just the steering ratios, combined with the fact that the CTS is closer to 50/50 weight ratio whereas the STS has significantly more weight on the front end. It's just not balanced at all compared to the CTS. On a track course a CTS would outrun an STS on handling alone. My 1SG STS was horrible. The handling with the magnetic shocks was abysmal. It felt like driving on a roller skate. And talk about body roll. When I'd hit an apex the entire car would roll over like my cat getting its belly scratched. On the used market it's a decent value for the money, but you can get better. I'd go for a BMW 5 series used, it'll probably last longer, and run better.

bbshriver
11-17-10, 03:08 PM
I will most likely replace my STS with a DTS Performance. I too am not the biggest fan of FWD but the DTS is a much nicer place to be (IMO) than the STS. The Performance version really helps turn the standard floaty DTS into something a little easier to handle. No comparison to the RWD STS in handling though.
I've only driven the standard DTS... loved the ride. I'd be curious to try the perf. edition though.
I did find it FAR more comfortable, and the size was more acceptable... just that darn FWD.
I'd look at a Town Car, but they haven't really been updated since 1978...


They didn't inflate the price of the car - my dad was the salesman and I used the original invoice. Got GMS and end of year deals with 72months 0%. Also, it was a year ago so 21k wasn't horrible for the trade in value. They sold it for 25k two weeks later.

As for the CTS feeling lighter - its just the steering ratios, combined with the fact that the CTS is closer to 50/50 weight ratio whereas the STS has significantly more weight on the front end. It's just not balanced at all compared to the CTS. On a track course a CTS would outrun an STS on handling alone. My 1SG STS was horrible. The handling with the magnetic shocks was abysmal. It felt like driving on a roller skate. And talk about body roll. When I'd hit an apex the entire car would roll over like my cat getting its belly scratched. On the used market it's a decent value for the money, but you can get better. I'd go for a BMW 5 series used, it'll probably last longer, and run better.
Actually, I believe the lightness Warren was talking about (and what I notice) is not with driving the car, but the feel of the car. The doors feel light, the materials feel cheap, etc.

lreddiablo
11-17-10, 06:15 PM
there is an old commercial floating around when the sts was introduced in '05, badass, got the benz bowing to the STS. Think they had something then if they pushed the marketing, but gave up and the benz/beemer is killin them. True they lost their old market for the seville with this redesign, maybe should have introduced it as an entirely seperate model

turnne
11-18-10, 07:48 AM
They didn't inflate the price of the car - my dad was the salesman and I used the original invoice. Got GMS and end of year deals with 72months 0%. Also, it was a year ago so 21k wasn't horrible for the trade in value. They sold it for 25k two weeks later.

As for the CTS feeling lighter - its just the steering ratios, combined with the fact that the CTS is closer to 50/50 weight ratio whereas the STS has significantly more weight on the front end. It's just not balanced at all compared to the CTS. On a track course a CTS would outrun an STS on handling alone. My 1SG STS was horrible. The handling with the magnetic shocks was abysmal. It felt like driving on a roller skate. And talk about body roll. When I'd hit an apex the entire car would roll over like my cat getting its belly scratched. On the used market it's a decent value for the money, but you can get better. I'd go for a BMW 5 series used, it'll probably last longer, and run better.

The dealer invoice price on a Cadillac is worthless
Trust me I know a sales manager at a large dealer in Cincinnati...Jake Sweeney...who has several GM franchises and others in that market who "schooled" me on dealer invoice...especially as it applies to GM

There is so much hold back money and incentives on these cars that the dealer invoice has little bearing on what the bottom line dealer cost is

Buy a car that sells close to sticker and its a different story
Based on what some of these cars for at retail the dealer..they would have lost money..per the invoice..on every sale or lease
Do you think that's going to happen?

Actually the weight distribution in a STS is likely front end heavy due to the V8
The V6 model likely has closer to an even weight distribution

As for the 5 series( or 3 series)..if you want a car that handles well those in a completely other league than the STS or the CTS

Warren

turnne
11-18-10, 07:56 AM
Actually, I believe the lightness Warren was talking about (and what I notice) is not with driving the car, but the feel of the car. The doors feel light, the materials feel cheap, etc.

That is exactly what I meant. The lightness of the doors...glove box...console etc of the CTS loaner I had didn't feel like a $50K car
A few things I have said about the CTS...its at least $10-15K too expensive for the feel of it.
The Chevy Malibu is darned close to its feel for 1/2 of the price
The Hyundai Genesis V8 is better finished and better equipped and can be bought for low $40's
The CTS offers no better amenities and no better finish than an Acura TL..and worse resale than the Acura
The Acura is $10-12K less

As much as my STS has its flaws..I have to say I was very happy to get it back after driving the CTS loaner for a week
My STS feels like 2 cars compared to the feel of that light CTS...thats fine for an economy car buy I like my luxury cars to feel substantial


Warren

turnne
11-18-10, 08:10 AM
there is an old commercial floating around when the sts was introduced in '05, badass, got the benz bowing to the STS. Think they had something then if they pushed the marketing, but gave up and the benz/beemer is killin them. True they lost their old market for the seville with this redesign, maybe should have introduced it as an entirely seperate model

They thought they had a design and engineered a car to compete with the Germans at their own game
They didn't...while it was much closer to mark, than the older body style, they still didn't hit it
The cars rapidly falling value and the heavily subsidized GM leases speak to that fact

But to be clear they placed the older bodystyle in this same position with the mid luxury category of the Germans
At the end of the day..I don't think any German car buyers took this car seriously

But a heck of a used car value and IMO is well worth its used car rates
You can pick up a loaded V8 05 STS for about the same amount as a loaded Honda Accord of the same year and mileage.


Warren

Slee_Stack
11-23-10, 10:41 AM
I'd go for a BMW 5 series used, it'll probably last longer, and run better.

Have you ever owned a used BMW??

They aren't exactly trouble free you know. Some might go as far as saying they are a nightmare.

Ours was...needy. I'll leave it at that.

EChas3
11-23-10, 11:05 PM
Many BMW's have only had one oil change! :)

turnne
11-24-10, 09:49 PM
Have you ever owned a used BMW??

They aren't exactly trouble free you know. Some might go as far as saying they are a nightmare.

Ours was...needy. I'll leave it at that.

I have actually owned a couple of them...1995 328...2000 740

Both were great cars...definitely in the drivers car tradition as they are known for

Did they have the reliability of a Lexus?...NO...but neither does my STS

And my BMW's had a lot better resale than than the STS's do....as do the Lexus cars



Warren

turnne
11-24-10, 09:54 PM
Many BMW's have only had one oil change! :)

Actually the car tells you when you need to change to oil
And that is included in the 4yr/50K full no charge maintenance that they all come with.....this along with brakes,rotors, wipers,filters, etc free replacement during this time
You can even can pay a little extra and get this extended to 6yr/100K

I wonder why Cadillac didn't do that same plan?


Warren

EChas3
11-24-10, 10:52 PM
My point was that many BMW's are lease cars, too. One of the reasons BMW started including oil changes under warranty is that leaseholders would get one oil change and then never do a second one because of the cost.

A lot of leased BMW's have oil use problems because of skipped oil changes.

turnne
11-25-10, 09:04 AM
My point was that many BMW's are lease cars, too. One of the reasons BMW started including oil changes under warranty is that leaseholders would get one oil change and then never do a second one because of the cost.

A lot of leased BMW's have oil use problems because of skipped oil changes.

Where did you see that information?

Actually the cost to change the oil in the BMW is about the same as the STS

I think I was paying like $10.00 difference

That being said..since they are so close does that mean buyers were skipping oil changes in the lease return STS's as well?

As far as these all being lease cars...there is no doubt in my mind that the majority of the volume of any luxury car is leases

As I have pointed out , in other threads, based on the lease deal that GM was offering on the STS.....likely to move cars and to stay payment competitive...I don't see how they made money on leased STS's considering what the cars brought in value after they were turned in
An STS should have had a much higher lease payment than the competition...based on its actual residual value


Warren

EChas3
11-25-10, 11:39 PM
My source is suspect - NPR. They stated the average BMW dealer oil change cost $225. One factor offered for BMW's policy change was that cars returned from leases were experiencing higher levels of oil use and owners were reporting a puff of blue smoke upon starting. BMW was looking to limit engine rebuilds (rings damaged by degraded oil) under their Certified program.

We use Midas for oil changes when the OLM reaches 0. Walmart sells me 10 quarts of Mobile 1 for a little more than $50. My friend at a local Midas is happy with $20. It's more convenient than the dealer who charges $100 and saves us each the cost of a tank of gas a year.

My car's VIN report showed oil changes at 4K, 7k, 10k, 13k, 26k and I changed it at 38K. Based on the first few years with that owner, I suspect her/she wasn't concerned about the $100 for an oil change and would be surprised if the oil had not been changed elsewhere at similar intervals. If nothing else, around 20k when the OLM would have been below 50%.

I can believe BMW owners neglecting their cars with about the same frequency as owners of other cars. This forum has heard from some BMW owners that some dealers are charging confiscatory rates for service. I think the NPR program's statements are plausible.

turnne
11-27-10, 09:52 PM
My source is suspect - NPR. They stated the average BMW dealer oil change cost $225. One factor offered for BMW's policy change was that cars returned from leases were experiencing higher levels of oil use and owners were reporting a puff of blue smoke upon starting. BMW was looking to limit engine rebuilds (rings damaged by degraded oil) under their Certified program.

We use Midas for oil changes when the OLM reaches 0. Walmart sells me 10 quarts of Mobile 1 for a little more than $50. My friend at a local Midas is happy with $20. It's more convenient than the dealer who charges $100 and saves us each the cost of a tank of gas a year.

My car's VIN report showed oil changes at 4K, 7k, 10k, 13k, 26k and I changed it at 38K. Based on the first few years with that owner, I suspect her/she wasn't concerned about the $100 for an oil change and would be surprised if the oil had not been changed elsewhere at similar intervals. If nothing else, around 20k when the OLM would have been below 50%.

I can believe BMW owners neglecting their cars with about the same frequency as owners of other cars. This forum has heard from some BMW owners that some dealers are charging confiscatory rates for service. I think the NPR program's statements are plausible.

LOL...that story is far more than suspect...its a fairly tale

here is link from my local BMW dealer ..if you scroll down the page and read the service special for BMW...you will see a $79.95 oil change special...up to 7 quarts of synthetic oil and a filter change...The cost is proportionate for higher capacity cars

http://www.magcars.com/specials/service.htm


As I recall I paid $10.00 more for the BMW than the Cadillac costs me at the dealer for an oil change....I think I paid $93.00 the last time for the STS at the dealer

FYI...you can take a BMW to Midas as well for an oil change..if that is your desire. Though a word of warning...a used BMW buyer prefers and will pay extra for a car that has been to a BMW dealer for all its service all its life...so your savings might be moot in the end

or you can change it yourself...as some do here...

Oil change cost of $225?!!!...No....that's a fairy tale...just like the engine rebuilds they are doing on lease returns

think about this from a financial perspective
If the included service gives a company a heads up in sales on the competition....as long as the cars have strong resale...why wouldn't they do it?
I am sure BMW knows they don't have the reliability of Lexus...but their cars have strong comparative resale so they don't stand to lose their shirt with the program

If I were a betting man...I would say if they had the resale of an STS...the program would stop very quickly..

in fact...applying your "plausible " logic...one could say that the lease return Cadillac buyer is not going to take care of his/her car because it could be bought so relatively cheaply...relative to the service costs that it will incur


Warren

bbshriver
11-29-10, 09:08 AM
My source is suspect - NPR. They stated the average BMW dealer oil change cost $225. One factor offered for BMW's policy change was that cars returned from leases were experiencing higher levels of oil use and owners were reporting a puff of blue smoke upon starting. BMW was looking to limit engine rebuilds (rings damaged by degraded oil) under their Certified program.

We use Midas for oil changes when the OLM reaches 0. Walmart sells me 10 quarts of Mobile 1 for a little more than $50. My friend at a local Midas is happy with $20. It's more convenient than the dealer who charges $100 and saves us each the cost of a tank of gas a year.

My car's VIN report showed oil changes at 4K, 7k, 10k, 13k, 26k and I changed it at 38K. Based on the first few years with that owner, I suspect her/she wasn't concerned about the $100 for an oil change and would be surprised if the oil had not been changed elsewhere at similar intervals. If nothing else, around 20k when the OLM would have been below 50%.

I can believe BMW owners neglecting their cars with about the same frequency as owners of other cars. This forum has heard from some BMW owners that some dealers are charging confiscatory rates for service. I think the NPR program's statements are plausible.

I'm curious where you're finding $100 dealer oil changes? The highest I've been charged by a dealer is $78 including the Mobil 1. It's significantly lower if I provide the oil, which I often do to use Amsoil which I prefer.

I've had complaints about most dealers I've been to, but maybe I shouldn't be so harsh if others are charging upwards of $100 for an oil change.

Warren,
Cadillac has started including a maintenance program
http://www.cadillac.com/premium-care/

Not sure how it compares to BMW, but it is now standard.

mike5514
11-29-10, 10:39 AM
I read this thread yesterday and i have been thinking it over and trackbait I dont understand your dislike of your car. You sold it for 2300 less than you paid for it 15 months later using a free for sale site. The way I see it the car depreciated at the rate of 1839 a year I might be wrong but isnt that very low. Taking a wild guess I would think a luxury car would lose 3000 to 5000 plus a year. mike

RippyPartsDept
11-29-10, 11:20 AM
ALL 2011 CADILLAC VEHICLES NOW COME STANDARD WITH CADILLAC PREMIUM CARE MAINTENANCE

It's a maintenance program that provides more peace of mind by covering certain required maintenance services during the first 4 years or 50,000 miles of the vehicle's operation. It aligns with the terms of our 4 years or 50,000 miles bumper-to-bumper New Vehicle Limited Warranty. And, it's fully transferable.

CADILLAC PREMIUM CARE MAINTENANCE COVERS ROUTINE MAINTENANCE SERVICES, (WHEN SCHEDULED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE OWNER'S MANUAL), INCLUDING:


Oil Changes: based on your Cadillac's Oil Life Monitor system
Tire Rotation every 7,500 miles
Engine Air Cleaner filter replacement
Passenger compartment air filter replacement
Multi Point Vehicle Inspections (MPVI)



GM may or may not have got this idea from Saab but it does help make them a bit more competitive and combat the chances of neglect.

GunwallsArchibald
11-29-10, 11:49 AM
Cars depreciate and it's pretty well known they depreciate the most during the first 2-3 years. So, it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that an 08 STS is still depreciating. Not to mention the economy sucks so nobody is in a hurry to buy large ticket luxury items--this doesn't help anyone.

As far as arguing about which luxury brand depreciates more...I could care less. I drive my cars for 10 years and a minimum of 160K when the difference in resale is hardly worth arguing about. ie I could care less if my STS AWD is worth $1000 less than a 10+ year old Lexus or Infinity.

Bottom line: Cars depreciate so be sure to buy a car you can enjoy driving while it is depreciating!

GunwallsArchibald
11-29-10, 11:59 AM
I usually only buy cars with poor resale value. Since I'm buying 2-5 year old vehicles anyway, the re resale costs are fairly irrelevant by the time I get rid of them.

I bought a 3 year old '99 corvette for 22500. That was roughly a 50% dump off MSRP in 3 years. Way to hold onto resale value corvette! I drove it for 3 years and sold it for $17500. That's a 20% dump of what I bought it for. Admiitedly, $5000 for 3 years of driving it was a fair value to me. HAd I bought it new, I would have been bent over...hard!

So put down the crack pipe. All cars DEPRECIATE. There are exceedingly few exceptions and those exceptions are collector's items that typical do NOT get driven.

By the way, why would anyone expect to get any great price for any item in this market? Are houses selling like hotcakes all fo a sudden???

Agreed :)

mike5514
11-29-10, 12:42 PM
I cant stop thinking about this! Trackbait Your add touts this car as a extremely nice car yet you trash it for its resale value and you only lost 2300 over 15 months the buyers before you assuming you are correct paid 60000 dollars for it and lost est. of 33000 over a est 20 months thats a est.17000 a year also you complain about gas mileage driving 6 miles a day through a school zone 1 stop sign and 3 stop lights. these are not good gas mileage conditions. Going to work you spent 388 bucks a year in gas. You wont get any sympathy from me My advice is to stay away from cadillac and go on a toyota forum you can tell them your tale of woe they will love you I dont. mike

malatu
11-29-10, 02:05 PM
Ditto!


Cars depreciate and it's pretty well known they depreciate the most during the first 2-3 years. So, it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that an 08 STS is still depreciating. Not to mention the economy sucks so nobody is in a hurry to buy large ticket luxury items--this doesn't help anyone.

As far as arguing about which luxury brand depreciates more...I could care less. I drive my cars for 10 years and a minimum of 160K when the difference in resale is hardly worth arguing about. ie I could care less if my STS AWD is worth $1000 less than a 10+ year old Lexus or Infinity.

Bottom line: Cars depreciate so be sure to buy a car you can enjoy driving while it is depreciating!

turnne
12-04-10, 08:04 AM
As far as arguing about which luxury brand depreciates more...I could care less. I drive my cars for 10 years and a minimum of 160K when the difference in resale is hardly worth arguing about. !

Thats fine for you
However..that $1000 that you mention in difference is not even close

Compare a 01 STS with 160K miles and compare it to a Lexus GS400 of the same year and miles
Big difference in price used...and not so much different when new...in fact I would say you could buy two of the STS's for the price of one Lexus

Furthermore...I am not sure why this always comes as a big surprise to people
Haven't these cars always been on the bottom of the resale percentages in their class?. Thats certainly been the case for the last 3 body styles

So you have
1.more than 25 years of sales history that has been consistent....
2.some "giveaway" leases that GM has always offered on these cars and the cars coming back from lease don't bring anywhere near their contract residuals
3. Advertised pricing that starts at 20% off sticker for a retail purchase

and the low resale is a surprise?

Like I said before...there is no way I would touch one of these cars before its 3-4 years old. I don't keep cars indefinitely and I can't afford to lose that much money AND I don't care to pour big money into a car that is worth a small amount of money
If you have to have to have a new car...leasing would have been the way to go on this one


Warren

turnne
12-04-10, 08:12 AM
I'm curious where you're finding $100 dealer oil changes? The highest I've been charged by a dealer is $78 including the Mobil 1. It's significantly lower if I provide the oil, which I often do to use Amsoil which I prefer.

I've had complaints about most dealers I've been to, but maybe I shouldn't be so harsh if others are charging upwards of $100 for an oil change.

Warren,
Cadillac has started including a maintenance program
http://www.cadillac.com/premium-care/

Not sure how it compares to BMW, but it is now standard.

I paid $93.00( including tax and fees) at Germain Cadillac in Columbus Ohio

I am not sure how the maintenance plan compares to BMW...this is the first I have heard of it
Under the BMW plan all you have to pay for in the first 4ys/50K miles is tires
Every other item is covered
If you are the first retail buyer you have the option...for a fee...to extend that blanket coverage to 6yr/100K
The dealer told me...depending on how often you needed brakes.rotors due to your driving habits...the extra blanket coverage was a very good deal


Warren

EChas3
12-04-10, 12:10 PM
If you are the type of owner that likes to change your oil more frequently than recommended by the manufacturer, these maintenance programs may not make you happy. They usually only pay for services according to the recommended maintenance schedule.

turnne
12-04-10, 11:21 PM
If you are the type of owner that likes to change your oil more frequently than recommended by the manufacturer, these maintenance programs may not make you happy. They usually only pay for services according to the recommended maintenance schedule.

That is true...well in regard to BMW anyway
They will not pay for an oil change until the car says it needs one
I have heard the service writer say that many people pay for an "interim" oil change on their BMW

But I have seen many here as well wait till the oil life monitor is very low

I guess it all depends on what you think is crucial

I typically will not drive more than 5000 miles between changes


Warren

roblinds
12-08-10, 10:06 AM
a dealer call and offer 22k...--- you turned it down????? that was a mistake.....thats a fair price. winter is coming car gettng older its not going up its going down - you cant hit a home run on every deal - shoulda taken the cash --- they are not hot right now and not great on gas. we like them yes but they are not the hot car .......
try again and take what you can get or DRIVE it and enjoy it. its a good car......

Zpak
12-08-10, 11:52 AM
Bottom line: Cars depreciate so be sure to buy a car you can enjoy driving while it is depreciating!

Amen....couldn't agree more...

caddyfat2
12-08-10, 01:47 PM
OK after 6 pages of threads....YOU CAN GIVE IT AWAY.....I'll take it !!!

ahuyghe
01-11-11, 06:17 PM
Well I ended up giving away my 2007 STS4 1SG anyway. As of today the STS is gone.
Major reason for selling?
Based on the past history of the car since i owned it, (3 yrs). The warranty is running out and i can't afford to repair it on my dime. Over and over and over.
I really loved the design, looks and feel of this car, and wanted one for the longest time but the quality and dependability really killed it for me, Along with the Cadillac customer service, which was a appalling at best.
I can say with the greatest confidence that this car is by far the worst i have ever owned for reliability in 32 years and has earned the prestigious award of most occurrences on the back of a tow truck, and most visits to a dealership for repair in the shortest period of ownership. (btw, I have only owned one other car that had to be towed (once) and that was a Fo**, I've never had another since, and never will, now i can add Cadillac to that list.)

Most memorable vehicle failure: Electrical system failure at a touch less car wash. Cadillacs fix..... Don't wash the car in cold weather... That's it... It's sad really.
Anyway, I am sad in a way to see it go, but like i said, I can't afford to dump the kind of cash it requires to keep that car running while it depreciates faster than a sinking ship.

I do want to thank everyone sincerely on this forum for all their help, valued advice and tips / tricks etc.
Best wishes to all of you with your STS ownership, I hope it is better to you than mine was to me.

Al

1BadCadSTS
01-11-11, 06:33 PM
How much?

RippyPartsDept
01-11-11, 07:06 PM
you GAVE it away??? or do you mean you sold it for less than it's worth?

turnne
01-11-11, 07:39 PM
you GAVE it away??? or do you mean you sold it for less than it's worth?

I am certain he means that he sold it for market value.....the dollar worth was much less than he would have liked and made him think twice about the thought of putting much money into it

Like I have said many times....as I think he stated...the value of this car falls like a sinking stone..SO...if it is unreliable you could find yourself on the bad end of more repair dollars than the car is worth rather quickly

Warren

Jloucks
01-11-11, 09:07 PM
Buyers market i guess. Found my 2009 w' 21,000m for $26,000. (v8, nav, n some other stuff but not 1sg). Yours would have possibly been a taker if I had only known =P

I looked at a lot of diff cars, the STS had the largest 1-2 year depreciation of any car I looked at. Bang for buck value was extreme...which was what I was looking for.

EChas3
01-11-11, 11:36 PM
That's not a great deal for the buyer. You shouldn't regret the trade. There are some comp's around here under that. You might have had inflated expectations; sellers often do. If you bought it new, you now know better than anyone just how weak the MSRP actually was.

I had a Lincoln that had problems after a 'Touchless' carwash. I don't use them anymore. Electronics hate water sprays. Nobody disputes that the STS does have issues, I'm still conflicted about what I should do as the CPO expires later this year. My STS is so much fun to drive and most of the features shine. Alas, it isn't the car it could be.

I hope you find joy with your new ride. Fill us in after you have a chance to settle-in.

turnne
01-12-11, 11:36 AM
I looked at a lot of diff cars, the STS had the largest 1-2 year depreciation of any car I looked at. Bang for buck value was extreme...which was what I was looking for.

You hit the nail on the head
I agree with Echase....don't have the wrong expectations about what these cars are worth
The value falls like a stone...it has for at least the last 25 years
why would you expect anything different?

The bang for the buck factor( buying a 2-4) year old is at the top of the charts no doubt
Unfortunately...due to its high cost of repair..relative to its market value....you could find yourself in a negative repair/value of car situation pretty quick

Like I have said many times...both the 2001 Aurora V8 and the 02 STS I owned were about the lowest cost ownership cars I have ever owned
But you have to know when it time say "goodbye" to the car


Warren

Midnight
01-12-11, 12:43 PM
> due to its high cost of repair..relative to its market value....you could find yourself in a negative repair/value of car situation pretty quick

I'm going to argue that it's not a significantly different situation from any other used car.

Looking at Carmax, a 5 series equivalent of my STS (V8, Nav, ~40k miles) is around $25k, or 5k more than what one like mine is selling for... ballpark of course. I highly doubt it's any cheaper to replace say, an engine, or basically anything at all on a BMW than on a Caddy... I'd bet it's more expensive, but I don't have numbers to back that up, so prove me wrong :) So if you have to replace a $5k engine in a $20k caddy (25% of car's value) or a $5k engine in a $25k BMW (20% of car's value), that is a bigger percent for the Caddy, sure, but it's not significantly bigger, IMO.

Heck, look at the other end of the spectrum. What's it cost for a new engine for a '05 Civic? Their value seems to be around $12-13k. Seems like one could go negative pretty quick on that.

turnne
01-13-11, 09:02 AM
> due to its high cost of repair..relative to its market value....you could find yourself in a negative repair/value of car situation pretty quick

I'm going to argue that it's not a significantly different situation from any other used car.

Looking at Carmax, a 5 series equivalent of my STS (V8, Nav, ~40k miles) is around $25k, or 5k more than what one like mine is selling for... ballpark of course. I highly doubt it's any cheaper to replace say, an engine, or basically anything at all on a BMW than on a Caddy... I'd bet it's more expensive, but I don't have numbers to back that up, so prove me wrong :) So if you have to replace a $5k engine in a $20k caddy (25% of car's value) or a $5k engine in a $25k BMW (20% of car's value), that is a bigger percent for the Caddy, sure, but it's not significantly bigger, IMO.

Heck, look at the other end of the spectrum. What's it cost for a new engine for a '05 Civic? Their value seems to be around $12-13k. Seems like one could go negative pretty quick on that.

First off...I haven't seen the pricing you are currently speaking about...I have seen a bigger difference than 5K. But at 20K...5K is a big difference in price.
I paid $18,750 for a 4 year white diamond 1SG car(54K) with every available option from my local Cadillac dealer...and frankly I felt I overpaid by 1K all said and done after the fact...but the car had the equipment level I wanted and I could not find another one within 1000 miles
Actually when I was looking I was seeing 6-8K difference in the competing cars...and of course throw in the Infiniti and Acura products as well...pricing is about where the BMW pricing is
My comment was actually connected to a few things
1. Older cars..those that are 6-8 years old and have 80-100K on them
2. I wasn't speaking engine replacement specifically...but those repairs that are common to the makes
3. The Cadillac doesn't have a stellar( historically) repair record...everything I have seen for cars over 5 years old has placed it below average

that being said..lets say a HG repair...that has happened to many here
So I would call that a widespread Northstar repair( pre 2005)
I don't recall seeing those type of issues listing in any numbers on any of the cars you( or I) mentioned
That being said that HG repair on an 7-8 year old Caddy with 80-100K miles is more than the car is worth...or suspension issues that cost 4K to repair

As for pulling the Civic in the mix...that car has a stellar repair record as well as resale...and from what I understand a low repair costs.
So it would appear that no one is really having to fix those

Sure..if things broke you could be upside down on anything based on its resale vs the cost to repair

Think about it...you could be upside down quickly on a Lexus LS if it had typical engine/electrical/suspension issues ...but it doesn't

As I have stated before I received $3500 for my 02 STS with 117K on it..in trade..it was in pristine condition except for a steering shaft that had been replaced twice..that I refused to mess with again
At 7 years old and 117K miles that 02 STS was worth significantly less than anything else in that car's class...by significant..I mean 30-50% more
And a few that were worth more...The Acura and Infinti were actually less expensive to buy brand new

Look at a 2005 Acura RL with 100K...worth much more than a 2005 STS with the same miles.....and was at least 10K less to buy brand new
I would imagine replacing the engine is the close to the same cost on both cars..if you needed to do that

why then is one worth so much more than the other...when it was far less expensive brand new?

You say there is not much difference..I would argue there is..and its significant
I use total cost ownership principles when I valuate a car
Cost to buy minus cost to repair minus what I receive when I trade= what the car really cost me


Warren

06 STS Rob
02-17-11, 09:21 AM
I looked for a N* navi for under 25k for months and only found cars with accidents on the carfax... I finally found a v6 with navi with 39000 miles for 22k, talked the dealer down to 20k and was happy. Sorry you can't get rid of your car, I would be interested if you were near CA and i found it last summer... Good luck, I'm sure someone is looking for that car right now.

turnne
02-17-11, 09:28 AM
I looked for a N* navi for under 25k for months and only found cars with accidents on the carfax... I finally found a v6 with navi with 39000 miles for 22k, talked the dealer down to 20k and was happy. Sorry you can't get rid of your car, I would be interested if you were near CA and i found it last summer... Good luck, I'm sure someone is looking for that car right now.
That is a fair deal as long as what you bought was at least a 2008



Warren

The Raven
02-17-11, 11:38 AM
It depends largely on age and mileage, but really the situation is the same for any of the big luxury brands (Cadillac, BMW, MB, Jag, Audi)...they depreciate like CRAZY, but repair costs stay the same. Therefore, buying a used higher-mileage example is almost always a very bad idea. BMW and MB are higher priced to begin with, so even though they depreciate comparably to Cadillac, they still cost more comparably. That said, you have to keep in mind that their repair costs are also significantly higher than Cadillac. So even IF they happen to depreciate less case by case, the repair cost vs. vehicle value ratio stays the same or even gets worse.

I.E. in that $20k Cadillac vs. $25k BMW example - if you buy the Cadillac and spend $10k in repairs over it's life, you are going to be spending $14k for the exact same repairs on the $25k BMW. In that case, the BMW would be the worse choice.

Acura, Lexus, and Inifiniti are a different ballgame completely. These brands don't compete directly with the likes of Cadillac, BMW, and MB. Though I haven't personally had any better experience with any of these brands either. Many Acuras have chronic transmission problems, which really kinda blows the "cheap to maintain" idea right out of the water. My mother has owned three Infinitis, and all three suffered from chronic (and expensive) PCV system issues.

The point i'm trying to make here is that it's not a great idea to buy an out-of-warranty, high mileage (50k plus) luxury automobile, no matter the brand. They are all expensive to maintain and they will all have problems in the time you own them. What brand you buy only determines how much you pay for those repairs.

Midnight
02-17-11, 12:53 PM
After a lot of thought, Warren, I think the biggest difference between us is that I also value the experience while I own the car in my total ownership cost. If I didn't, then sure, I'd buy the cheapest car with the lowest cost and the highest resale, probably a Honda Fit or something, and be blissfully trolling different forums. I do tend to buy cars for the long term, and by the time I trade one in (hopefully after having enjoyed driving it for several years), I don't expect to get much. "Buy what you like, and enjoy it" is my motto for cars.

I will totally give you that the Acura TL, despite being downright drab and boring, and and overall lesser car than a 1SG STS, holds a remarkably high resale. However, looking at JD Power's 3 year reliability, the STS fared quite well against the TL, while the 5-Series was quite low. To me that says while the 5 series may have a higher resale, the chances for needing repair are actually higher, making the risk more even, and maybe putting the STS out of any disproportionate "upside down" risk, unless you also pan the 5 series for it. So I do agree, if you compare the STS and the TL, the TL will cost less. How much less, that's still up in the air, and it's kinda pointless to argue it without any more detailed numbers. But I hold to the argument that the STS isn't necessarily a high risk car to buy compared to others in its class.

Also, I think an important question is what drives resale more? Perception or reality? Japanese cars were once superior to domestic cars by a wide margin in quality. That isn't the case any more. Yet people still perceive this wide chasm, and if that affects resale disproportionately, then it's not the fault of the STS. If the STS is suffering in resale because it's a larger car, when the trend is toward smaller cars, that's not the STS's fault. And it's exactly these potential scenarios where the value of liking what you drive comes into play and trounces the resale.

One final point. What you happened to get for your 117k Seville with existing issues on a trade, is not very useful data in this argument. I do know that the Seville had head gasket issues, and perhaps that will unfairly "leak" over to affect the values of the Cadillac STS, but I doubt by much. The STS's Magnetic shocks are expensive to replace. But what's the failure rate? Without any numbers, that argument is not relevant either. I'm sure the doors fell off of an Acura TL once too. But trends and high failure rates are important, not rare or freak occurances, or problems that plagued different models using different components. If anything, I have heard of a lot of torque converters being replaced on the STS. And the catalytic converter recall, and for the V6, I think there are timing chain issues, but I'm not sure how common. After that, I can't think of anything major. Am I missing something?

Anyway, I'm fine to agree to disagree over this. Your valuation puts the STS lower (how much lower is still up for debate). Mine puts it competitively, and I hold to the argument that the risk of going upside down on an STS when it matters (ie when the car has considerable value) is in line with most other similar cars.

KRSTS
02-17-11, 01:46 PM
Minight makes a lot of good points. My philosophy is to buy a car you like and enjoy drivlng it. I really dont care much about resale. A car is an asset that gets used up. I still enjoy driving my sts after three years of ownership so i am happy

EChas3
02-17-11, 02:52 PM
I echo KRSTS. While a car may be an asset, very few can be considered an investment. Daily drivers get used up.

We have the privilege of making our own choices regarding what we want and what we are willing to pay. But it isn't as simple as just features & money because there are other benefits and costs involved. Some people value those considerations differently. No surprise there!

What annoys me is that the range of choices keeps getting smaller. I'm not so concerned about losing Olds, Pontiac or Mercury but I'm not happy that cars & engines are getting smaller and politics trumps engineering. I'm all for letting people choose the technology in their car, but taxpayers shouldn't subsidize certain choices and penalize others. In the quest for high mileage aerodynamics far too many of the cars look the same already. I fear it's only getting worse.

DitkaFan
02-17-11, 03:57 PM
Geesh - Got a 2008 STS, loaded, 22k miles, 27,500 miles and/or 16 months full warranty REMAIN on it.

STS w/ N*, NAV, Leater, decked out. Narry a ding on it anywhere. Been running an ad on Craigslist for a couple of weeks and have gone from $27,000 down to $23,500 and NOT a single phone call one on it - nothing! I've had tremendous success selling 6 previous cars on CL from a C5 Vette to a worn out VW GTI!

Has this car just lost appeal? Is it that the CTS draws more of a crowd? Daymn... had I know I couldn't dump this pig at auction price, I would have never bought it.

Frustrating to say the least. How is it that a $60,000 car only just a scant 3 years later won't sell in the low 20's?

Unbelievable!

Bummer, I just bought a 2008 Cadillac STS 4 with 19XXX on the odometer.
Packages: 1SB Luxury Package V6, PDP V6 Luxury Collection (which includes [CF5] Express Open/Close Sunroof And [Y41] V6 Luxury Level Two Package), JE5 Performance Brakes, and MX7 All Wheel Drive.
I paid 25000. I totally could have handled a few more miles for 1500 less :-) What area are you in? I am in Northern VA... Still a good market for these up here....

KRSTS
02-17-11, 04:38 PM
I echo KRSTS. While a car may be an asset, very few can be considered an investment. Daily drivers get used up.

We have the privilege of making our own choices regarding what we want and what we are willing to pay. But it isn't as simple as just features & money because there are other benefits and costs involved. Some people value those considerations differently. No surprise there!

What annoys me is that the range of choices keeps getting smaller. I'm not so concerned about losing Olds, Pontiac or Mercury but I'm not happy that cars & engines are getting smaller and politics trumps engineering. I'm all for letting people choose the technology in their car, but taxpayers shouldn't subsidize certain choices and penalize others. In the quest for high mileage aerodynamics far too many of the cars look the same already. I fear it's only getting worse.

It is going to get worse. It seems everything today get dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. As they say "you ain't seen nothin yet"

turnne
02-17-11, 10:34 PM
It depends largely on age and mileage, but really the situation is the same for any of the big luxury brands (Cadillac, BMW, MB, Jag, Audi)...they depreciate like CRAZY, but repair costs stay the same. Therefore, buying a used higher-mileage example is almost always a very bad idea. BMW and MB are higher priced to begin with, so even though they depreciate comparably to Cadillac, they still cost more comparably. That said, you have to keep in mind that their repair costs are also significantly higher than Cadillac. So even IF they happen to depreciate less case by case, the repair cost vs. vehicle value ratio stays the same or even gets worse.

I.E. in that $20k Cadillac vs. $25k BMW example - if you buy the Cadillac and spend $10k in repairs over it's life, you are going to be spending $14k for the exact same repairs on the $25k BMW. In that case, the BMW would be the worse choice.

Acura, Lexus, and Inifiniti are a different ballgame completely. These brands don't compete directly with the likes of Cadillac, BMW, and MB. Though I haven't personally had any better experience with any of these brands either. Many Acuras have chronic transmission problems, which really kinda blows the "cheap to maintain" idea right out of the water. My mother has owned three Infinitis, and all three suffered from chronic (and expensive) PCV system issues.

The point i'm trying to make here is that it's not a great idea to buy an out-of-warranty, high mileage (50k plus) luxury automobile, no matter the brand. They are all expensive to maintain and they will all have problems in the time you own them. What brand you buy only determines how much you pay for those repairs.

Actually..NO
In the class of the STS price wise..it has the worst resale...and has for 25 years. If they could improve that one thing..I think it would open some market for new buyers that run from it becuase of that repuatation
My STS was $67200 sticker when new...an E class Benz was about $70,000 at the same equipment level at the same time

There is no way there is only $2800 difference between those two cars value today

And I do not think the BMW or Benz buyer is looking at a Cadillac seriously..anyway
I think those two makes compete primarily with each other for that buyer
Not as reliable as the Japanese..but a driving experience that is so unique( IMO) that people will pay for it

I think that Cadillac is more likely to compete against the likes of Acura, Lexus and Infiniti...especially the likes of Lexus..who has the number one luxury spot in sales
They have built an incredibly reliable car that doesn't really drive and handle that well...compared to the germans
Infiniti is the best handler of the non-germans(IMO)..Acura a little less so
But Lexus outsells every luxury make...so clearly the major part of luxury buyers would choose reliability over a drivers car

The german car buyers want a drivers car and are willing to spend more in upkeep to have it

I have often said if Lexus could make their cars drive like the germans..the luxury market would be in BIG trouble

As far as reliability..I have seen no long term studies that agree with what you have said in general
In fact ..everything I have seen on the STS gives it below average reliability
One that my personal experience would coincide with
You may well know the former body style was no stranger to major issues...HG comes to mind...an issue that went on for a decade in the Northstar engines

As far as long term value...look at what a 10 year old Lexus is worth with 150K miles..a V8
Then look at a Northstar equipped vehicle of the same age and mileage...there is a HUGE difference


Warren

turnne
02-17-11, 11:10 PM
After a lot of thought, Warren, I think the biggest difference between us is that I also value the experience while I own the car in my total ownership cost. If I didn't, then sure, I'd buy the cheapest car with the lowest cost and the highest resale, probably a Honda Fit or something, and be blissfully trolling different forums. I do tend to buy cars for the long term, and by the time I trade one in (hopefully after having enjoyed driving it for several years), I don't expect to get much. "Buy what you like, and enjoy it" is my motto for cars.

I will totally give you that the Acura TL, despite being downright drab and boring, and and overall lesser car than a 1SG STS, holds a remarkably high resale. However, looking at JD Power's 3 year reliability, the STS fared quite well against the TL, while the 5-Series was quite low. To me that says while the 5 series may have a higher resale, the chances for needing repair are actually higher, making the risk more even, and maybe putting the STS out of any disproportionate "upside down" risk, unless you also pan the 5 series for it. So I do agree, if you compare the STS and the TL, the TL will cost less. How much less, that's still up in the air, and it's kinda pointless to argue it without any more detailed numbers. But I hold to the argument that the STS isn't necessarily a high risk car to buy compared to others in its class.

Also, I think an important question is what drives resale more? Perception or reality? Japanese cars were once superior to domestic cars by a wide margin in quality. That isn't the case any more. Yet people still perceive this wide chasm, and if that affects resale disproportionately, then it's not the fault of the STS. If the STS is suffering in resale because it's a larger car, when the trend is toward smaller cars, that's not the STS's fault. And it's exactly these potential scenarios where the value of liking what you drive comes into play and trounces the resale.

One final point. What you happened to get for your 117k Seville with existing issues on a trade, is not very useful data in this argument. I do know that the Seville had head gasket issues, and perhaps that will unfairly "leak" over to affect the values of the Cadillac STS, but I doubt by much. The STS's Magnetic shocks are expensive to replace. But what's the failure rate? Without any numbers, that argument is not relevant either. I'm sure the doors fell off of an Acura TL once too. But trends and high failure rates are important, not rare or freak occurances, or problems that plagued different models using different components. If anything, I have heard of a lot of torque converters being replaced on the STS. And the catalytic converter recall, and for the V6, I think there are timing chain issues, but I'm not sure how common. After that, I can't think of anything major. Am I missing something?

Anyway, I'm fine to agree to disagree over this. Your valuation puts the STS lower (how much lower is still up for debate). Mine puts it competitively, and I hold to the argument that the risk of going upside down on an STS when it matters (ie when the car has considerable value) is in line with most other similar cars.

I think we agree...I value the experience as well

If you have read some older posts of mine..you will know that I have driven the germans cars for many years..and frankly prefer them as I think there is no other that offers the same feel and driving experience
Though..Infiniti is the closest..and is doing a fair job of chasing BMW
By far the best driving non german car..IMO..is the Infinti

I don't think the TL is drab..though that is subjective. What I will say though is that I think the TL is 95% of the car that the Cadillac CTS is
At $51k( for the loaner I was given) I think GM is kidding....too light of a feel of the interior materials and way to plasticky for 51K....its on par with the interior finish of a TL
In fact I don't much difference in the feel of the material of the CTS and the Chevy Malibu...but the CTS is twice the price?..with that plasticky feel of interior components?
The Hyundai Genesis is better finished than either one and is almost 10K less than the CTS..I scratch my head on that one
I see that the Genesis is holding value as well

As for the market not liking full size cars...which I don't consider the STS to be....they still sell Lexus LS, BMW 7 series and Mercedes S classes all day long in the US
All full size cars with non V8 options brand new and scare. They even sell a $100K Lexus hybrid..in fact a few thousand of them last year

Of those full size cars the Lexus LS currently hold the banner for the king of resale..is it perception or reality?
I don't know for sure...but the fact that there are so many 90's era LS400's driving around with over 200K makes me think its reality

As for the JD power with the STS performing as well as a TL...thats interesting
Everything I have seen puts the STS as below average in terms of long term reliability...a factor that was shared with the older bodystyle as well

I don't know the reliability of the MAG ride shocks. They do seem to be more reliable than the older ISS set up of pre 2003. But that set up was notorious for issues...and at $1000 per shock..its like that Lincoln air suspension set up.. when you see all those riding around like lowriders
A 4K suspension fix doesn't get fixed typically on a $3500 car

My STS didn't have any issues..other than the steering shaft fix that was a $200 deal...that had already been fixed twice before and a know GM front drive malady
I thought retail was $4500..trade in $3500..and that is what I got..it was 7 years old with 117K miles
I paid $10,100 for it when it was 5 years old and 59K
What I got was fair and what I thought it was worth even before I walked into the dealer

I think another element that affects the resale value of the STS is first off..frankly some bad history of things like HG's, leaks and electrical issues
To add to that..it never had the driving experience of the germans or the reliability of the Japanese
A reputation take a long time to build. It even took the Japanese a few years to break into the luxury fold. Now..we have Lexus that has the LS that is genuinely thought of as a top tier player..with the likes of the 7 and S class..in both finish and finesse
15-18 years ago..I think the market thought the car was nice but not to the level of the top tier cars.
But think about this..15-18 years ago..it had about the same sticker as an STS!!
A used Cadillac has a smaller "market" than other makes..lets face it a buyer might look at a Lexus, Infiniti, Acura on the same lot as viable options..or ditto with a BMW/Mercedes. I could easily see either person not even contemplating a Cadillac sitting on the same lot. That creates a smaller pool of likely buyers..so lower resale

Another interesting thing I have seen
Take a look in your area as to what franchised luxury dealers will have a make( that they sell and service) with over 100K miles on their lot for sale
The Japanese luxury cars rule on this one.

I chose the STS, as used car, because of the price. It fit what I needed to pay for car at the time and frankly it was my least favorite...but it was also the least expensive of the cars I was test driving
It meets my expectations for what I paid
I think the market will adjust the cars value..for the most part...to what it is really worth


Warren

RippyPartsDept
02-18-11, 12:58 AM
i think you guys are over analyzing this

big time

the normal person looking to buy a new car doesn't do all this cost/benefit analysis
they look for the car that they like - could be styling or features... or it could be for other reasons like perceptions and hype
then they look at their wallet to see which of those cars they can afford (lets forget about people buying out of their means... those cars get repo'd eventually)

i could be wrong, but i think most people buy a car based on emotion not logic...

i think you're right to apply logic to this situation but you can't apply logic to the other consumers' decisions because usually there is none

turnne
02-18-11, 07:03 AM
i think you guys are over analyzing this

big time

the normal person looking to buy a new car doesn't do all this cost/benefit analysis
they look for the car that they like - could be styling or features... or it could be for other reasons like perceptions and hype
then they look at their wallet to see which of those cars they can afford (lets forget about people buying out of their means... those cars get repo'd eventually)

i could be wrong, but i think most people buy a car based on emotion not logic...

i think you're right to apply logic to this situation but you can't apply logic to the other consumers' decisions because usually there is none

The normal person is probably not buying a luxury car...that person likely does the most cost benefit/analysis

That person is likely to look at different makes

The luxury buyer does buy more on emotion....however luxury trends change much slower
So a makes reputation takes a lot longer to be up..or down

Thats one of the reason why I say the Lexus brand has done very well to have only been around the time it has


Think about it...they had only been a round a decade and had developed quite a reputation for both incredible reliability and also excellent customer service

But..I think they really did it right ,from a marketing standpoint, from the start

Their reputation..today...is the most reliable luxury brand with the highest resale
Is it 100%.true....I don't know...but that is the perception


Warren

mike sts
02-18-11, 09:32 PM
It seems prestty clear to me based on GM's advertising and the new vehicles coming to market. Buick is going to go up against Lexus and Acura. Cadillac is going to go up against the germans. With GM's back against the wall, I want to beleive GM through cadillac and buick can build cars that can compete worldwide agianst their targeted competers. I drove a es350 and buick lacrosse and liked the buick better almost bought it. I would take a CTS over a 3 series, I like the SRX a lot as well. Anyway decided to keep my 05 STS another year, I have a love hate relationship with this car due to reliabilty issues and the technology in the car being poorly engineered. There is a lot to like about it though.

The Raven
02-19-11, 11:51 AM
Actually..NO
In the class of the STS price wise..it has the worst resale...and has for 25 years. If they could improve that one thing..I think it would open some market for new buyers that run from it becuase of that repuatation
My STS was $67200 sticker when new...an E class Benz was about $70,000 at the same equipment level at the same time

You CLEARLY have not bought/sold any MB's or BMW's. There are a few (mostly M's and AMG's) that do hold their value very well. However, the average 3/5/C/E does (at best) only SLIGHTLY better than the CTS and STS. It really is very comparable. Yes the used BMW's and MB's still cost more vs. Cadillac, but this is because they originally sold for SIGNIFICANTLY more. The original price difference is why you will often see the BMW/Benz actually depreciate MORE than the Caddy.

Examples:

2008 BMW 535xi Twin Turbo 57k miles
Original MSRP - $63120
Sold in 2011 - $23,001
3yr Depreciation - 63.6%
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-535XI-AWD-TWIN-TURBO-NAVIGATION-COLD-NO-RESERVE-/260734793105?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cb5013591

2008 BMW 550i Sport 44k miles
Original MSRP - $69625
Sold in 2011 - $30,900
3yr Depreciation - 55.7%
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-BMW-550i-SPORT-PKG-NAVI-SAT-RADIO-NO-RESERVE-/320655635234?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4aa890b322

2008 MB E550 Sport 45k miles
Original MSRP - $68200
Sold in 2011 - $32900
3yr Depreciation - 51.8%
*I found an interesting note while researching this car - expected 3yr depreciation is listed at 57%, so this one actually did WELL relative to expectations.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/08-MBZ-E550-Sport-CA-/130482349187?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1e615aa483

2008 MB E350 52k miles
Original MSRP - $52871
Sold in 2011 - $22000
3yr Depreciation - 58.4%
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-Mercedes-E350-P1-Pkg-4Matic-Nav-iPod-Conection-/220732678042?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3364b15f9a

2008 Cadillac STS AWD 46k miles
Original MSRP - $51285
"Sold" in 2011 - $18800
3yr Depreciation - 63%
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/20-495-08-STS-STS-4-46K-WARNTY-HEAT-COOL-SEATS-ROOF-/230581411570?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35afb91ef2

2008 Cadillac STS V6 46k miles
Original MSRP - $48155
"Sold" In 2011 - $21780
3yr Depreciation - 55%
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-CADILLAC-STS-3-6-DIRECT-INJECT-SUNROOF-NAV-DVD-46K-/190499702951?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c5aaac8a7

*NOTE - since there were so few STS's for sale on ebay, I had to go with cars that were bid up, but didn't sell because of a reserve that was too high. This is still an accurate measure however, since it does show what people are willing to pay for the car.

As you can see, the 3yr depreciation of the E-class and 5-series is very comparable to the STS. The STS just sold for much less to begin with, therefore it is worth much less as a used car.


And I do not think the BMW or Benz buyer is looking at a Cadillac seriously..anyway

They are, even though BMW and MB don't want you to think so. I know several guys who cross-shopped BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac...two of which chose Cadillac in the end.


I think that Cadillac is more likely to compete against the likes of Acura, Lexus and Infiniti...especially the likes of Lexus..who has the number one luxury spot in sales

That's what Buick is doing, quite well in fact. While Cadillac may not be doing an AWESOME job competing with BMW and MB, they are doing it.


The german car buyers want a drivers car and are willing to spend more in upkeep to have it

A Mercedes-Benz has never been a "Driver's car" and doesn't try to be. Not even AMG. They are simply a premium sedan with great performance. BMW has portrayed itself as a "driver's car" and succeeded in execution in the past, however with each new generation, they are losing the precision performance and exceptional feel they once had. BMW is moving too far upmarket to continue to build "driver's cars". They are losing their identity.


As far as reliability..I have seen no long term studies that agree with what you have said in general
In fact ..everything I have seen on the STS gives it below average reliability
One that my personal experience would coincide with
You may well know the former body style was no stranger to major issues...HG comes to mind...an issue that went on for a decade in the Northstar engines

Cadillac as a brand has competed very well with the best in quality. They have been sharing top three positions with BMW and Lexus since 2006, and have not dropped from the top 5 since 2004.