: E15 has been approved by the EPA



johnny kannapo
10-14-10, 09:54 PM
Corn farmers are on the obamadala$ plan. Our MPG suffers 4.4% mpg with E10. E15 Means 6.6 MPG loss? I don't understand the logic in producing less efficient fuel. Whats up with that? I was getting good MPG in a Cadillac.

Maybe I should have put this in the lounge, It effects all of us.

cl1986
10-14-10, 11:38 PM
wth are you smoking??? 6.6mpg?? your crazy

E10 only suffers 1mpg or less, E15 may be 6% loss but thats only 1.5 MPG not 6.6

you need to learn math......

Jesda
10-15-10, 05:27 AM
Modern Cadillacs won't notice much of a difference, but several older cars will suffer. I'm all for more options, but not mandates that take away consumer choice.

I'll move this to the lounge.

Stingroo
10-15-10, 07:27 AM
cl1986 - chill bro, he left off a % sign. lol

I will say - I don't care how much hype is pushed, or what people say about this, but my own experience (along with gas receipts and good ol' math [shock, horror]) have shown that I get worse mileage using fuel with ethanol. I don't like it. To hell with it all, ethanol is horse shit.

ewill3rd
10-15-10, 08:07 AM
They mandate that carmakers get more miles per gallon and then cram less efficient fuel down our throats, brilliant!
Yeah, this isn't a recipe for disaster :/

cl1986
10-15-10, 09:37 AM
well here E10 is $0.20 cheaper a gallon, so it evens out, better emisions, cleaner engine and fuel system and its higher octane, if i pull up to a station and its the same price well its a no brainer use the lower octane normal gas

gary88
10-15-10, 10:06 AM
Gotta make sure those Midwestern farmers vote Democrat this election eh :bigroll:

OffThaHorseCEO
10-15-10, 10:09 AM
i know this has probably been discussed before, but, is ethanol safe for all vehicles on the road today? what happens when i run it and my engine blows?

Stingroo
10-15-10, 10:13 AM
well here E10 is $0.20 cheaper a gallon, so it evens out, better emisions, cleaner engine and fuel system and its higher octane, if i pull up to a station and its the same price well its a no brainer use the lower octane normal gas

That must be nice. Here on the east coast it's the same price. So it's a scam IMHO.

There are a few ethanol free gas stations around, though. Probably not for long, I'm sure.

The Tony Show
10-15-10, 10:23 AM
They mandate that carmakers get more miles per gallon and then cram less efficient fuel down our throats, brilliant!
Yeah, this isn't a recipe for disaster :/

Hit the nail on the head, Bill.

http://striderweb.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-spotlight/images/bravo.gif

Ranger
10-15-10, 12:31 PM
i know this has probably been discussed before, but, is ethanol safe for all vehicles on the road today? what happens when i run it and my engine blows?
10% ethanol is safe for all cars on the road today, but NOT E15 unless they where designed for it. If you use it where it is not intended for use and you have a problem you are SOL. Check your owners manual. I believe it says "UP TO %10 ethanol".

Stingroo
10-15-10, 12:34 PM
Okay, hold up.

E15 means that our gas would be 15% ethanol? Isn't that what E85 means? :confused:

Submariner409
10-15-10, 12:39 PM
Okay, hold up.

E15 means that our gas would be 15% ethanol? Isn't that what E85 means? :confused:

Before everyone gets their panties in a knot, go to Google and type in - epa ruling e15 gasoline - Do some reading. This is a waiver, not a mandate, and most cars today won't run well on the stuff, which is why the EPA specifies pump labels IF a gas blender decides to market the crap.

I think E85 is a FlexFuel - as in: 85% Ethanol - and because ethanol has a lot less heat potential than gasoline you'll burn a LOT more of it to go the same distance. It's the perfect Green Corn Lobby money pit. Gotta get them Lobby votes next month.

(I'll drink my corn from a jar, thank you..........)

Stingroo
10-15-10, 12:44 PM
Oh. I hear people refer to regular gasoline as E85 occasionally, so I was thrown off for a second there.

I'll stick to my 87 octane dead dinosaurs.

Submariner409
10-15-10, 12:53 PM
Oh. I hear people refer to regular gasoline as E85 occasionally, so I was thrown off for a second there.

I'll stick to my 87 octane dead dinosaurs.

Wherever you gas the car, read the stickers on the pump - one may say something like "Fuel dispensed from this pump may contain up to 10% Ethanol by volume. For information..................."

E10 is all up and down the East Coast.............

Funny that nobody remembers MTBE from a while back -and that was some nasty stuff blended into gasoline - almost as bad as tetraethyl lead. Remember Grandpa talking about going to the ethyl station ???

(MTBE was, like Ethanol, an emissions oxygenator; tetraethyl lead prevented valve seat erosion.)

Stingroo
10-15-10, 12:58 PM
Yeah, almost all the gas stations around me have the 10% ethanol stickers on the pump.

Except this one mom-and-pop joint that's by my house. The gas is usually 2-3 cents more, but it's worth it for me.

cl1986
10-15-10, 03:39 PM
I think you may have not been paying attention of what those people were saying, you probrably heard 85 octane gas was normal gas, but you heard E85 instead.......two different fuel types and will NOT be capatable with one vehicle unless its a flex fuel. You were mislead and thought even more different.




Oh. I hear people refer to regular gasoline as E85 occasionally, so I was thrown off for a second there.

I'll stick to my 87 octane dead dinosaurs.

EcSTSatic
10-15-10, 10:27 PM
Ethanol sucks for boat owners. At least I only have a small 9.9 and plastic gas tank on my sailboat

BoatUS Ethanol Fact and Tip Sheet (http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/e10Tips.pdf)

ewill3rd
10-16-10, 08:25 AM
Ethanol sucks period, a lot of carmakers are having trouble with fuel control because of it. It is hard to regulate the percentage and it really freaks out the computer for fuel control if it is not on the money.
It is an oxygenate that replaced MTBE at great expense to the oil industry. Anyone look at the price of gas lately? Nobody cares now that we are used to it but it is outrageous.

Octane is a measure of resistance to pre-ignition, higher compression engines require higher octane so it does not ignite before the spark fires.
Terms like E10, E15 and E85 represent the percentage of ethanol in the fuel blend.
"Flex Fuel" is a term that means a vehicle can run on blends from E10 up to E85 thus making them "flexible". The fuel itself is just referred to by the Ethanol percentage.

This does nothing but increase agricultural demand to waste energy. Remember it takes more energy to create ethanol than you can get out of it.
It puts a higher demand on farmers (good for profits but hard on the land) and makes us all more vulnerable to acts of nature such as tornadoes, floods, and drought. If crops don't meet demand animals don't get feed, grocery stores raise prices and now gas prices go up. Brilliant.

As for being "safe", no one knows because nobody is testing anything, they just take the latest green fad and make it law... then worry about the consequences later.

CIWS
10-16-10, 08:31 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/212848-e15-coming-soon-pump-near-you-2.html#post2390191

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-16-10, 09:57 AM
I really, really hate this Ethanol gas movement. I don't like the idea of it being less efficient than pure gasoline, and I don't like how the ethanol screws up the engines computers and causes drivability issues.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:09 AM
I hope these ethanol and other green movements create a reaction that results in some sort of advancement. From what I understand current gasoline engines convert less than 25% of pure gasoline's energy into motion (the rest is converted mostly to heat and noise). Pretty sad. It seems amazing to me that with all of the advancements made in other technological areas over the last 100 years, that's the best we can do.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-16-10, 10:18 AM
Drew,

Ethanol is even LESS efficent than gasoline, about 5% overall. Diesel however is far more efficent than gasoline, especially if you're idling for long amounts of time. Diesel is the way of the future. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're on the verge of a giant slide towards diesel in the mainstream automotive market, much as we were going from carburation to fuel injection in the early-mid '80s.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:21 AM
double post....

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:21 AM
Drew,

Ethanol is even LESS efficent than gasoline, about 5% overall. Diesel however is far more efficent than gasoline, especially if you're idling for long amounts of time. Diesel is the way of the future. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're on the verge of a giant slide towards diesel in the mainstream automotive market, much as we were going from carburation to fuel injection in the early-mid '80s.

Yeah, it is less efficient, I thought it was more than 5% though.

Diesels are slightly better, but still not very impressive overall. I think the efficiency number for diesel jumps to around 30% or something. That's a third over gasoline (typical for a consumer gas engine might be 20%, though max might be 25%), which is significant in that respect, but looking at the big picture with still 70% wasted, still pretty sad.

Numbers are rough, I can't really remember them anymore, but the point is that we can barely put a third of any fuels energy into motion in the transportation industry. Whats even more sad is the fact that those numbers have been consistent for 100 years with barely any noticable improvement. It'd be something if we were significantly advancing, making some sort of improvement over time, but in the grand scheme of things, we are still just spinning our wheels, no pun intended.

cl1986
10-16-10, 10:29 AM
i think most of you guys dont know anything about ethanol....... where has it messed up engine management??

Do you know we have been running ethonal (E10)for ten years here in SD??? Just because you guys got ethanol last year doesnt mean you know everything and it causes problems, pretty sure it works in any vehicle ive used it in all vehicles ive had, 86 monte, 86 deville, 94 eldo, 94 chevy pickup, 73 Jeep cj5, 86 Jeep cj7, 2002 chevy, 96 seadoo xp, and many others.

Im not really pro ethanol or anything but guys coming on claiming all kinds of crap they cant back up, well i have to intervene.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:32 AM
We've been running ethanol here for somewhere between 5-10 years. I personally never had any problems with it either, and I've been running engines that were designed in the '80's. Many people claim problems though, so I don't know. I almost questioned the above comment about ethanol "screwing up" engines computers, but I left it alone.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-16-10, 10:34 AM
Ever seen anyone run a tank full of E85 in a car that wasn't designed for it? That'll **** shit up real bad quick.

As far as E10 goes, it's not so much that it causes drivability issues, but rather when people switch from E10 to 87 Octane and back to E10 again, their PCM can't figure out what it is and it can't tune for it as well, so you've got engines that'll want to run richer with the gasoline to make up for the E10, and that'll really screw up their fuel economy and possibly set off a check engine light. I saw a lot of issues like that when I worked at the Chevrolet dealer as a service consultant from 2006-08, right when E10 was getting popular with all the newly released "flex fuel" vehicles, especially the 5.3L Tahoes, Silverados and Suburbans.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:38 AM
Yeah, but that's just plain owner neglect. You aren't supposed to put E85 in an engine that can't run it. That's different. That's the same as someone downtalking diesel fuel because you put it in your gas engine and it messed it up.

If the blends at the gasoline pump were messing up your engine, then there'd be an argument. Current computers can compensate for the blends just fine, there's no problem with it.

Submariner409
10-16-10, 10:40 AM
Ethanol sucks for boat owners. At least I only have a small 9.9 and plastic gas tank on my sailboat

BoatUS Ethanol Fact and Tip Sheet (http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/e10Tips.pdf)

My 38 foot workboat hauls 55 gallons of E10 in either 87 or 89 octane marine fuel. The boat is powered by a tricked-out 1970 Olds 455. The fuel tanks are stainless steel.......I keep clean gas in her and use a fuel stabilizer. Not one problem to yesterday afternoon (when I tied up). Because road pump gas is cheaper than marina gas, we top it off using 6-gallon jugs which we fill from the local Mom&Pop el cheapo station.

The problem from E10 marine gas lies in the fact that many, if not most, boats are left either half full or nearly empty for months at a time; water condenses in the tanks due to fuel expansion and contraction/tank vents, the excess water combines with the ethanol and it all precipitates (dissociates) out of the gas and lies in a big puddle in the bottom of the tank - ready to be sucked up into the pump/filter at next startup.

Stingroo
10-16-10, 10:41 AM
LOL I remember a lady put diesel fuel in her BRAND NEW VW Jetta when my dad worked at the VW/Audi dealership. Her reasoning was "Aren't all of these things diesels?!"

Oh goodness, classic. :lol:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-16-10, 10:44 AM
E10 contains alcohol which slowly dries out and breaks down the rubber seals on a lot of the fuel injection lines and the injectors themselves on older and late model cars.

cl1986
10-16-10, 10:44 AM
Ever seen anyone run a tank full of E85 in a car that wasn't designed for it? That'll **** shit up real bad quick.

As far as E10 goes, it's not so much that it causes drivability issues, but rather when people switch from E10 to 87 Octane and back to E10 again, their PCM can't figure out what it is and it can't tune for it as well, so you've got engines that'll want to run richer with the gasoline to make up for the E10, and that'll really screw up their fuel economy and possibly set off a check engine light. I saw a lot of issues like that when I worked at the Chevrolet dealer as a service consultant from 2006-08, right when E10 was getting popular with all the newly released "flex fuel" vehicles, especially the 5.3L Tahoes, Silverados and Suburbans.

oh ya the chevy dealer thing....LOL....all those ethanol problems were people thinking they can run E85 in a NON flex fuel vehilce, trust me our chevy dealer had to deal with these idiots as well.....

Ive ran E85 in my monte carlo with a 400 and a carb, turned the idle up and she goes like hell. Didnt mess anything up. Im waiting for the E85 carb kit to install in it.

I have had no issues going back and forth between E10 and 87 octane. No milage decreases. No problems. Like i said im not PRO ethanol, if its not more than $0.20 cheaper a gallon i go regualr 87 octane.

Has never set a check engine light. Now i do happen to know one of these idiots trying to run E85 in his 04 chevy 5.3....ya that set a check engine light. So that again means nothing even if you are a gm cert tech, people still lie.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:45 AM
Ever seen anyone run a tank full of E85 in a car that wasn't designed for it? That'll **** shit up real bad quick.

As far as E10 goes, it's not so much that it causes drivability issues, but rather when people switch from E10 to 87 Octane and back to E10 again, their PCM can't figure out what it is and it can't tune for it as well, so you've got engines that'll want to run richer with the gasoline to make up for the E10, and that'll really screw up their fuel economy and possibly set off a check engine light. I saw a lot of issues like that when I worked at the Chevrolet dealer as a service consultant from 2006-08, right when E10 was getting popular with all the newly released "flex fuel" vehicles, especially the 5.3L Tahoes, Silverados and Suburbans.

I can't speak for the flex fuel equipped vehicles, maybe GM did a poor job of programming. However, on my older vehicles, I have had no problems switching between 87 and E10 when traveling between Milwaukee and northern WI every few weeks.

cl1986
10-16-10, 10:46 AM
E10 contains alcohol which slowly dries out and breaks down the rubber seals on a lot of the fuel injection lines and the injectors themselves on older and late model cars.

wrong, anything after 1986 has fuel lines supported for at least E10

Submariner409
10-16-10, 10:46 AM
The boat...........built in 1969 of yellow pine on oak ribs.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 10:49 AM
wrong, anything after 1986 has fuel lines supported for at least E10

This.

Everything's been using the same nylon/plastic fuel lines since the '80's.

Like I said, I've been running E10 on my old-ass vehicles for quite a number of years now, I think 7 to be exact. Never had fuel system problems outside of Multec fuel injector coils, which are unrelated and were a known problem well before E10.

My '90 and '95 both have the original pump, fuel lines, and o-rings all in tact just fine. With all of the work I do, I've never had anyone bring a car to me with fuel leaks due to dried out components.

Submariner409
10-16-10, 10:52 AM
wrong, anything after 1986 has fuel lines supported for at least E10

Methanol is/was the fuel line/carburetor gasket killer, not ethanol.

Ethanol is corn liquor - you can drink it. Go to a liquor store and find a bottle of 190 proof grain alcohol: that's ethanol. Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey is distilled from a fermented sour mash consisting of at least (by law) 51% corn.

87, 89, and 91/93 octane gasolines are ALL "E10" in emissions-designated areas. Some wide open spaces and remote areas do not use blended fuels because the city, county, state, Fed have not ordered them to. Ethanol is the oxygenator which replaced the toxic MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether) in gasolines when it was discovered that MTBE was leaching from underground storage tanks into well water supplies. Oxygenators are used to reach fuel emissions goals, not to "boost" performance or any other fuel attribute, BUT ethanol used in small amounts is an octane booster. Why ? Because ethanol burns cooler than gasoline so it slows down the combustion flame travel which = octane boost. 87 octane burns fastest - 130 octane aviation fuel burns slowest.

cl1986
10-16-10, 11:11 AM
well ok...

should state 87, 89, 91 ,93 CAN be E10

here most stations are 87 octane, 89 with 10% eth, and sometimes like in my town the 91 is E10 so i end up running that in my jetski.

other places near me have 91 octane non ethonal. It varies all over.

But if i can buy 89 E10 for 20 cents cheaper i buy that rather than 87 octane.

My old boss had his acura nsx turboed and converted to E85 ( has like 110 or 114 octane) makes over 435hp at the rear wheels, timing can be greatly advanced with E85. Pretty good for a litte six banger.

ewill3rd
10-16-10, 01:49 PM
According to the powertrain engineers at GM that I have spoken to, E10 causes major fuel control issues because of reasons I recently named somewhere.
I don't profess to be an expert on the topic but I haven't head much good about it... that actually turns out to be true.

Jesda
10-16-10, 02:08 PM
E10 attacks the potting material on some fuel injectors.

Submariner409
10-16-10, 04:01 PM
According to the powertrain engineers at GM that I have spoken to, E10 causes major fuel control issues because of reasons I recently named somewhere.
I don't profess to be an expert on the topic but I haven't head much good about it... that actually turns out to be true.


E10 attacks the potting material on some fuel injectors.

Curious that every car on the East Coast isn't dead................Bill, isn't all of VA an E10 state ??

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 04:05 PM
This E10 commentary reeks of Dexcool-like internet myth mayhem.

First it was corrosive coolant that eats through steel gaskets and aluminum engine blocks, now it's new fangled gasoline that disintegrates your fuel system. Of course, conveniently, we won't find any real evidence from members here, we're all just that lucky! It'll just be "well, I heard this on an internet website" and "this one friend of my moms who's brother works at a dealership said his customer has been using E10 and he had to replace a fuel injector last week at 210k miles...stupid E10 gas!"

:yawn:

Just like Dex...

Eric Kahn
10-16-10, 04:17 PM
if you go to the liqueur store and buy that bottle of grain alcohol, notice that is is 194 proof, or 97% alcohol, the other 3% is water, which you can NOT distill out, it has to be chemically removed, which is very expensive, so all grain alcohol contains water, and most cars still have steel fuel lines, not plastic, that run under the body.

so you have water in the alcohol, and free oxygen, since alcohol is an oxygenate, you get rust, I have been lucky, but several friends have bought older cars that needed new fuel lines due to rust

and it does effect mileage on cars, when they first started selling E10, I owned a dodge dynasty, and it dropped 2 mpg every time I had to use the crap, I tried very hard not to use it, but sometimes there was no choice

and to make life more fun (and gas more expensive) alcohol, or gas with alcohol in it is not shipped by pipeline, all the pipelines are steel, and not coated on the inside, so the alcohol is TRUCKED to the tank farm in stainless steel tankers, stored in a special (expensve) separate tank, and added to the mix as it is being pumped into the tanker taking the gas to the station, all this make the gas more expensive, along with the fact that alcohol cost about $4.50 a gallon to make, before shipping and before the Gov. subsidies that bring the price down

ThumperPup
10-16-10, 04:23 PM
i get out of car at gas station and see a sigh says 10% Ethonal and i just get back in my car and drive to the next station untill i stop seeing it it works but sometimes there are no other places around and what fools some ppl is here in Cleveland the stations that use Ethonal in there gas are like only 2 or 3 cents a gallon cheaper so ppl go there and think oh im paying less this is cool they are also getting less i think

Jesda
10-16-10, 05:26 PM
I don't think Ive seen an ethanol-free gas station in st Louis.... Since... I was a kid?

Jesda
10-16-10, 05:29 PM
Curious that every car on the East Coast isn't dead................Bill, isn't all of VA an E10 state ??

I'm pretty sure nearly every gm or ford product from the last 25 years is unaffected, but several imports suffered because the ethanol content wasn't present in their home market. You'll notice a difference in the south where ethanol is less prevalent (and the corn lobby is less powerful). Older Nissans are particularly prone.

ThumperPup
10-16-10, 05:30 PM
there are a few e free stations in cleveland area there is also one that i go to i think fuel mart right off of the ohio turnpike in toledo 280- and 80 its E free atleast they dont advertise having E in there fuel
also when im at my cabin in gettysburge there are 3 stations taht are E free and i always use them
Found one right out side of DC few years back
a few in detroit area

iv leanred if you look you will find

Submariner409
10-16-10, 06:37 PM
Instead of everyone jerking off in print, go to Google and "EPA and Ethanol" to your hearts' content. It's all in there, somewhere in 10,000 pages of hits.

If Whistling Chicken, IA or Possum Trot, KY has opted into or been directed by the EPA to comply with federal emissions regulations, then ALL gas stations in those jurisdictions will pump E10 according to the laws presently in effect. There's no individual gas station choice: it all comes from the same tank trucks and it all contains the same E percentage. The pump may not say so, but if Washington, DC is in the EPA's emissions umbrella, then ALL gasoline in Washington, DC is E10.

Given today's petroleum refining technologies, ethanol is nothing more than a giant government pork payment to the Corn Belt. Many states in the Corn Belt don't have to comply with the EPA emissions measurements, but they sure love to truck ethanol everywhere else................It's all a shell game.

Jesda
10-16-10, 09:03 PM
The big push for nationwide e10 came after the surge in fuel prices back in 2008. Government is sadly reactionary, rarely thinking ahead beyond the next election cycle.

cl1986
10-16-10, 09:15 PM
and most cars still have steel fuel lines, not plastic, that run under the body.

you do know that cadillacs have plastic fuel ines right?? and plastic tanks?? i believe most other cards do also.


but several friends have bought older cars that needed new fuel lines due to rust

ya ive seen many cars needing new brake lines as well, had nothing to do with ethonal, its called winter up north.......man some peopel come up with all kinds of nonsense, sometimes after 200k miles you do have to replace something.


and it does effect mileage on cars, when they first started selling E10, I owned a dodge dynasty, and it dropped 2 mpg every time I had to use the crap, I tried very hard not to use it, but sometimes there was no choice



Ive never seen in the ten years ive been using E10 that i dropped more than 1 MPG on ANYTHING ive driven, most times cant tell the 1 MPG




oh by the way, ive never heard of anyone needing fuel injector cleaner since ethanol was introduced, all the fuel system is spotless, no grime or dirt to bunch up and clog up things, keeps it clean as can be, hell its a solvent it should keep anything clean

Submariner409
10-17-10, 01:18 PM
oh by the way, ive never heard of anyone needing fuel injector cleaner since ethanol was introduced, all the fuel system is spotless, no grime or dirt to bunch up and clog up things, keeps it clean as can be, hell its a solvent it should keep anything clean

That very statement is why a LOT of boat owners came to grief when E10 hit the dock pumps - the ethanol scrubbed their filthy (algae and varnish) fuel system squeaky clean and deposited all the crap in the primary and secondary filters.

A lesser flap is the fact that ethanol absolutely kills the resin binder in some types of fiberglass fuel tanks - the tank literally disintegrates into a woven glass strainer. BANG !!!

dkozloski
10-17-10, 05:51 PM
No E10 in Alaska. The only time it was tried, with the first real cold snap, about half the cars were alongside the road with the hood up.

We had one winter with MBTE and had people keeling over in the streets where cars were idling at intersections for traffic lights. The fumes were so strong you couldn't stand it. A major lawsuit against the EPA brought a stop to that.

EChas3
10-17-10, 08:57 PM
well here E10 is $0.20 cheaper a gallon, so it evens out, better emisions, cleaner engine and fuel system and its higher octane, if i pull up to a station and its the same price well its a no brainer use the lower octane normal gas

It's only cheaper because you pay taxes to susidize it. (Yeesh!) The emissions are not better, they are worse. It cannot be delivered using pipelines and it's harder on your car. It makes a car run hotter and higher octane fuel burns slower. You get less energy than gasoline.

Do some research and you'll earn that E15 is 50% more stupid than E10.

EcSTSatic
10-17-10, 09:41 PM
My 38 foot workboat hauls 55 gallons of E10 in either 87 or 89 octane marine fuel. The boat is powered by a tricked-out 1970 Olds 455. The fuel tanks are stainless steel.......I keep clean gas in her and use a fuel stabilizer. Not one problem to yesterday afternoon (when I tied up). Because road pump gas is cheaper than marina gas, we top it off using 6-gallon jugs which we fill from the local Mom&Pop el cheapo station.

The problem from E10 marine gas lies in the fact that many, if not most, boats are left either half full or nearly empty for months at a time; water condenses in the tanks due to fuel expansion and contraction/tank vents, the excess water combines with the ethanol and it all precipitates (dissociates) out of the gas and lies in a big puddle in the bottom of the tank - ready to be sucked up into the pump/filter at next startup.

Did you read the link? You have prevented the biggest problem by having a stainless steel tank. Most boat owners aren't so fortunate. Ethanol eats fiberglass tanks

ewill3rd
10-18-10, 08:32 AM
Sub, I can tell you stuff I have seen and heard but only time will tell.
From what I have seen, cars raised on the stuff seem to do okay, in the past I think Illinois had a lot of Ethanol in their fuel and when I worked in Rolla MO we would see a lot of older Devilles come rolling in with misfires and the last fuel up they had on their trip was in East St. Louis. It would strip the windings of the injectors and by the time they got to us they needed a new set.

I wouldn't speculate as to the affects of it on components, most of our systems are plastic from end to end.
I have yet to see a "dirty injector" except for the tip which gets carbon buildup on any car that I have worked on in the last 2 decades. (unless there was sugar in the tank)
Fuels have so many detergents and additives in them they do a nice job of staying clean.

My issue isn't service related, until some bonehead starts putting E85 in a non-flex car which I haven't seen yet except on one truck which was just a check engine light or something.
My issue is that it is just a counterproductive "solution" to a manufactured "problem" that is only an issue that is used to win elections and push people's views on other people.

Submariner409
10-18-10, 08:43 AM
Did you read the link? You have prevented the biggest problem by having a stainless steel tank. Most boat owners aren't so fortunate. Ethanol eats fiberglass tanks

Post #52

Submariner409
10-18-10, 08:55 AM
My issue is that it is just a counterproductive "solution" to a manufactured "problem" that is only an issue that is used to win elections and push people's views on other people.

Ethanol is a 100% pork payoff - and, as posted, the stuff is heavily subsidized in order to keep the consumer prices artificially low: we all pay higher taxes to compensate.

I maintain that with today's oil refining technology we are able produce clean, efficient gasolines that would have an excellent additive package in order to insure proper engine and fuel system emissions operation - without the addition of ethanol - resulting in higher gas mileages and lower fuel costs, both directly and indirectly.

BUT, the Corn Belt Lobby would have a hissy fit if their states' government subsidies dried up, so that ain't gonna happen: It would take a Congressional majority with balls to pull it off, and the chances of Congress doing anything correctly (intelligently) are slim and none.

EcSTSatic
10-18-10, 12:32 PM
Post #52

Gotcha. So you disagree that dissolving fiberglass tanks is a significant issue even though most experts claim that:

"The most reported and troublesome issue with marine engines and ethanol fuel has been regarding the decomposition of certain fiberglass gas tanks. There really is no solution to this issue, other than to replace the tank (very costly, time-consuming project); Lining or sealing the tank, for added protection, is sometimes possible."

Submariner409
10-18-10, 12:55 PM
A lesser flap is the fact that ethanol absolutely kills the resin binder in some types of fiberglass fuel tanks - the tank literally disintegrates into a woven glass strainer. BANG !!!

From my post - "lesser flap................some types........." referring to the fact that several older models of Hatteras and Bertram, among some others with early fiberglass tanks are the tanks affected - not ALL fiberglass tanks. The newer resins are ethanol-resistant.

Your post says as much - "certain fiberglass gas tanks.......".

But, if you own a 1980's Hatteras SportFish flybridge (gasoline model) with two fiberglass tanks at about 250 gallons each, the cost to replace them is nothing short of staggering.