: Does Cadillac Really Need a V8 Anymore?



Lord Cadillac
10-14-10, 11:34 AM
Noise, vibration and harshness (NVH). How important is it to you?

As Cadillac moves forward, it's less and less likely we'll see a V8 engine in anything but the high performance V-Series vehicles. Considering that V8s are noticeably quieter and smoother than their V6 counterparts, how do you think Cadillac will fare with competition in the future?

We can look at this in two ways:

#1. Technology has improved and allows current V6 engines to closely resemble the NVH levels of luxury vehicles with V8 engines in the past.

#2. Technology has improved allowing V8s the ability to surpass the NVH levels we saw in luxury vehicles twenty years ago.

So on one hand we can have a V6 that may have the same level of NVH as a Lexus LS in 1989 (1990 model). On the other hand, current premium V8 luxury sedans are even quieter and smoother than that.

How do you feel about a Cadillac with a V6 that has the NVH of a 1990 Lexus LS? Is that good enough? Personally, I think most consumers would say "yes". But what about the more picky (potential Cadillac) customers who currently drive cars like the Mercedes S550 and Lexus LS460?

What's your opinion?

drewsdeville
10-14-10, 12:12 PM
There are a lot of things to consider here I guess.

I think one problem is attaching those "V8 only" characteristics that have really faded in recent years. V8's used to be chosen for the luxury segment because there was nothing smoother. That was really true as well, up to even the 80's. Anyone drive one of the original 3.8 V6's from the pre-balance shaft days?

That said, does "V8" mean anything to the general public anymore? Personally, I don't think so. GM has to sell these cars, and I don't think a V8 badge on the side of the car is going to be the golden ticket. If anything, I think V8 has become a negative term, sounding archaic, ancient, and undesirable when it's placed in anything but a sports car or a full sized pickup. That's just the vibe I get from listening to others converse about the new auto market.

I don't know about others here, but if I was driving a lot of newer cars with ear plugs in, I'm not sure if I could even tell you if it was a V8 or a V6. Modern day chassis and engine mounts really do a good job of isolating the drivetrain from the cabin. Also, modern day V6's make plenty of power. More than if a V8 was treated with the same R&D as some of these fantastic V6's? Probably not, but, producing regular production vehicles, at what point does the power become impractical? 400hp V6's are on the horizon that are faster than just about anything in automotive history, including the famed big block muscle cars, while continuing to climb up the efficiency chart. Is the Cadillac demographic really looking for much more, especially if it costs a reduction in operating cost through lower mpg's?

Reminds me about an article I read recently about Ford. Anyone read about Fords next drivetrain lineup for the F-150? The base engine will be the 5.0 V8 (tuned for the truck rather than the Mustang), and the optional/more expensive engine will be a variant of the turbo 3.5 V6 used in the Taurus, which will probably perform much better and get better mileage as well.

http://www.dailytech.com/Ford+F150s+EcoBoost+V6+Gets+Detailed+Outguns+50+V8/article19675.htm

It's a good example of how the V6 is valued over the V8 in todays market. They could easily beef up the 5.0 to make it the premium engine over the V6, and probably would have if this was happening anywhere between the years 1900 and 2005. But today, they can't market that as well.

It might also be worth considering the packaging issues when talking about this topic (Any Northstar owner should recognize this...the Northstar was massive, externally, for it's displacement and was practically shoehorned into most cars it was used in) No doubt, engines that are smaller in physical size reduce packaging restrictions. Smaller and lighter drivetrains create more space to be used elsewhere, and perhaps can even translate into the cabin, extra features, better handling and braking performance, or external proportions/appearance.

These are just some of the biggest factors I see here. To simplify, I don't think Cadillac needs the V8. In fact, in much of it's lineup, I think Cadillac is better off without it.

Lord Cadillac
10-14-10, 12:46 PM
When it comes to V6 vs V8, "most people" prefer the V6. But I'm not talking about most people. I'm referring to people who buy premium luxury cars. If we asked this question to a hundred people who drive Toyota Corollas, I have no doubt we'd see very few votes for the V8. They obviously have no care in the world about NVH...

drewsdeville
10-14-10, 12:58 PM
When it comes to V6 vs V8, "most people" prefer the V6. But I'm not talking about most people. I'm referring to people who buy premium luxury cars. If we asked this question to a hundred people who drive Toyota Corollas, I have no doubt we'd see very few votes for the V8. They obviously have no care in the world about NVH...

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I think today, V6 sounds more sophisticated, more expensive. It sounds like advancement, something Cadillac is trying to market. V8 sounds more...old for lack of better words. That's not good, it's something Cadillac is trying to get away from.

See the F-150 link. Perfect example. The between the V8 and V6, the V6 is premium. It portrays a better image, it commands a higher price tag. Like the luxury car market, this is being applied to a market where V8's were once typical: trucks. Also similar, today's truck market is definitely one where people are willing to spend money, just like the luxury market.

Yeah, it's backwards from previous decades, definitely not traditional, but I think it's hard to ignore the fact that it's happening. If Cadillac wants to compete, I think it has to adjust accordingly and advance with the market rather than fall behind for traditions sake. When you are trying to compete with a higher end segment, the trick is to stay AHEAD of the market, not fall behind.

OffThaHorseCEO
10-14-10, 01:09 PM
If were attracting luxury customers and not trying to convert toyota owners, then we need a v8 with as much R&D as is applied to the v6's if not more. Luxury owners want excess. look at the Sixteen. people fell in love with the sixteen because of its styling, but also because of the 16 cylinders. Who really needs 16 cylinders? But its a Cadillac, and its excessive and thats what its attraction is.

i can see the point that V8 "sounds" old so maybe go with a lower displacement V10 haha. just for excess's sake

orconn
10-14-10, 01:25 PM
Actually when it comes to "bragging" rights, but also smooth quiet operation a V-12 can't be beat. For a six I'll take a straight six any over a V-6.

Lord Cadillac
10-14-10, 01:26 PM
So you feel that Cadillac will be ahead of companies like Mercedes and BMW (for example) by offering V6 engines over German cars with V8s?


That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I think today, V6 sounds more sophisticated, more expensive. It sounds like advancement, something Cadillac is trying to market. V8 sounds more...old for lack of better words. That's not good, it's something Cadillac is trying to get away from.

See the F-150 link. Perfect example. The between the V8 and V6, the V6 is premium. It portrays a better image, it commands a higher price tag. Like the luxury car market, this is being applied to a market where V8's were once typical: trucks. Also similar, today's truck market is definitely one where people are willing to spend money, just like the luxury market.

Yeah, it's backwards from previous decades, definitely not traditional, but I think it's hard to ignore the fact that it's happening. If Cadillac wants to compete, I think it has to adjust accordingly and advance with the market rather than fall behind for traditions sake. When you are trying to compete with a higher end segment, the trick is to stay AHEAD of the market, not fall behind.

Stingroo
10-14-10, 04:04 PM
Absolutely not. I don't care how smooth V6's we have today are, nothing is better than the rumble of a V8. Whether it be subdued and smooth for a luxury car or as loud as possible in a muscle car application. They're as American as baseball and apple pie. To hell with this "competing with everyone else". Cadillac needs its own type of luxury car. I personally couldn't give a rats ass about going "green" and all that other crap they're shoveling down everyone's throats. It needs a unique American flare that everyone can recognize - and to me, that means it needs a V8.

drewsdeville
10-14-10, 04:15 PM
BMW and Mercedes have made many successful cars that don't have V8's. The V8 isn't imperative to a luxury vehicles success.

Sending right back, do you think that offering a V8 standard in the very successful CTS would have coaxed swarms of BMW and Mercedes customers into walking in to Caddy dealerships with title in hand ready to trade?

If the requirement for a fantastic luxury car was a V8, the CTS would never have been as successful as it was. In fact, most Cadillac postitive reputation built through the last decade is in thanks to the V6 CTS. The V8 variant has not, and probably never will outsell the V6. The V series are great cars, I'm sure most of us want one and consider them to be "better" than the V6, but I'm also sure that most that will post in this thread will never purchase a V8 CTS new, though those new sales are what Cadillac is looking for.

I think the CTS is perfect proof that a V8 is not required to make a successful luxury car.

As far as the Sixteen goes, everyone loves what prototypes have to offer because no one has the option to buy them. I loved the Sixteen as well. V16 in it? "THAT WOULD BE AWESOME" I say to myself, just like everyone else did. However, I wonder how many would have sold had the Sixteen went into production.

OffThaHorseCEO
10-14-10, 04:21 PM
but remember, the cts is not a luxry car, its a "near-luxury" car

drewsdeville
10-14-10, 04:23 PM
but remember, the cts is not a luxry car, its a "near-luxury" car

It has the Cadillac name on it, is successful, and has a V6. The question is if Cadillac needs a V8 to be successful. I think the CTS provides the answer to the question.

Lord Cadillac
10-14-10, 04:39 PM
For Cadillac to be competitive as a luxury automobile company, would you say it needs a full-size RWD flagship to compete with other luxury automobile companies? Yes or No? If Yes, than do you feel it'll be okay for that car to have a V6 over a V8?

I don't feel all Cadillac vehicles need a V8 - especially with the twin turbo 3.0 liter V6 on it's way. However, I'm not sure that engine would be appropriate in a S550 competitor...

OffThaHorseCEO
10-14-10, 04:43 PM
It has the Cadillac name on it, is successful, and has a V6. The question is if Cadillac needs a V8 to be successful. I think the CTS provides the answer to the question.


True. I'm unintentionally mixing this thread and the other thread too much.

I think if Cadillac wants to continue being a "near-luxury" brand, then the v6 is fine. If Cadillac wants to boost its image again, and be listed with the best jags mercedes and bmws, they need to stick with 8 or more cylinders.

In response to your response about the Sixteen, how many Bugatti veyrons do you think are sold each year, how many Mercedes SLR McLarens. Actually having these models in your line up, available for purchase, IMO raises perception of your brand.

Stingroo
10-14-10, 05:04 PM
Not ALL of their cars need V8's, no. The CTS is a great example of that like you said, but to be a true luxury car maker, they simply can't abandon it entirely.


For Cadillac to be competitive as a luxury automobile company, would you say it needs a full-size RWD flagship to compete with other luxury automobile companies? Yes or No? If Yes, than do you feel it'll be okay for that car to have a V6 over a V8?

Yes, it needs a full-size RWD/AWD flagship, and NO I would not think that it was okay for that car to have a V6 - TT or otherwise.

drewsdeville
10-14-10, 05:14 PM
Just some food for thought here - just pondering while taking a break from my Statics homework.

In recent threads a number of members have mentioned the recent positive physical change in Lincolns lineup, as well as their boost in image and exclusivity from Ford that they've achieved.

Besides their trucks, their passenger car lineup has all gone turbo V6 (I'm considering the TC dead at this point)... The MKS and MKZ are really helping the Lincoln brand name, attracting potential NEW customers, while the TC has been hampering it for 10 years plus, competing against itself in a dying market that attracts no NEW customers to Lincoln/Ford dealerships. However, I suppose, the TC had more problems than just the drivetrain.

Lincoln definitely isn't the most successful luxury car brand in the world, but is it just coincidental that they are doing better now than they have in years after abolishing traditional V8 powered luxury cars?

Also, I think some opinions are being tainted by the visualizations of what people THINK or WISH Cadillac should be rather than what it really is. I personally am posting in relation to what Cadillac is and what it seems to expect of itself. It doesn't seem that Cadillac has any desire to compete with the Veyron or McLaren, so I'm not really considering those in my thoughts.

orconn
10-14-10, 06:04 PM
Let's face it, it all comes down to exterior and interior design. If Cadillac can come up with really great designs it won't matter whether the car is powered be a V-8 or a V-6 as long as performance is more than adequate and the car looks great and is made with high grade materials they will have a winner, The 4th generation Seville is proof of that.

mhamilton
10-14-10, 06:16 PM
What they do not need is a V8 that is only 10 hp more powerful than their V6 (and I'm sure torque is not far behind on the V6 either). Mercedes S550 is making what, 375 hp with VVT and direct injection? There should be an optional V8 that's not a supercharged Chevy engine. The 320 hp N* is not cutting it anymore.

I'd still be in the market for a powerful NA V8; I don't care for V6s at all, even if TT or SC can make the same hp. Especially a 90* V6 which are inherently unbalanced... hence balance shafts, hydraulic motor mounts, etc, just to idle.

Jesda
10-14-10, 06:23 PM
The V8 should be retained for Cadillac's halo cars, but there's nothing wrong with offering a V6 or maybe even a turbo-4 in its mass market vehicles. Likewise, BMW offers a 6 across the range but saves the V10 for its M5.

slk230mb
10-14-10, 07:13 PM
I think Cadillac needs to keep a V8 in the engine offerings. I'd love for the engine to be unique to Cadillac, but I realize it's fiscally responsible for GM to throw in an engine out of the "parts-bin". I love that my STS-V has an engine that was only used for a Cadillac.

hueterm
10-14-10, 07:36 PM
If all Cadillac has is V6s when I go to buy a new one, then I'll buy a Genesis or Equus. V6 in anything more upmarket than a CTS is ultrafail...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-14-10, 10:59 PM
The V6 is good in the smaller cars, but a V8 should always be retained in the full sizes. Could you imagine a 3800 powered deVille? A 4.3L Powered Fleetwood? It's stupid. We're in America, I don't care what the EPA or CAFE says, but Americans like V8s in big cars, no matter how much low end torque the V6 has, or how much power it's able to put out with direct injection and a turbo, don't care, it's not a V-8. Some people won't buy a V6, just like some people won't buy FWD (or RWD), etc etc...

Take for example the Supercharged 3800 v. the LT1. The 3800 is renowned for having a lot of low end torque....for a V6, especially with the supercharger, but it PALES in comparison to the amount of low end torque provided by the 350 LT1. You can just toe into the throttle on an LT1 and just feel it pull away effortlessly, with the 3800, you'll need a little bit more throttle because it just doesn't have the low end torque of the LT1. What makes this even more dramatic is the fact that the Regal weighs in at about 900 lbs lighter than a Fleetwood, and the power/weight ratio on the Regal is way better than the Fleetwood too. Even my 4.3L Vortec feels sorta like a older small V8, especially when pulling away from a stop, but pales in comparison to any real V8 from that era. And they don't make many V6's bigger than the old 262 cid V6.

I'm not that impressed with the 3.6L V6 in the new CTS & STS. It makes a lot of power, yeah, but it doesn't have a smooth, melodic sound some V6's have (I'm thinking of the 3.0, 3.5 and 3.7L Nissan DOHC engines), and I don't remember it being as smooth as those either, but it's as good as we've got now. If they go for the sixes in big numbers, they should come out with a winner of an inline six, such as the BMW's use, because let's face it, BMW has never been known for making wonderful V8s and V12s. Their main draw has always been their magnificent inline sixes. I've always enjoyed every inline six I've ever driven (M-B 3.2L, Ford 4.9L, Jeep 4.0L, among others), lots of torque, wide powerband, good fuel economy, easy access to most engine parts, good fuel economy, nice sounding intake & exhaust, etc etc. I think a nice big I-6 would work well with a lot of Cadillacs, and offer more of a V-8 feel with V-6 economy.

I think that Cadillac should offer a V-12 too, because that's truly the peak of the automotive world, at least from a luxury car perspective. So smooth, so powerful, so exotic. I've heard a few V-10s and have always been less than impressed....they always sound so....utilitarian. I heard a first generation Viper GTS last weekend at WOT from 0-80 and while it was very fast and impressive, it sounded like ass, especially when compared to all the 2010 Camaro SS's floating around.

I liked it best when Cadillac offered their own, "exclusive for Cadillac" engine in their cars. That's what makes a Cadillac a Cadillac, and not a Lincoln! Lincoln ALWAYS used Ford generic engines (they were mostly excellent engines though), so it always made it more special that Cadillac would get their own engines, built by GM *EXCLUSIVELY* for Cadillac. I beamed with pride everytime I popped the hood on my '92 Sedan deVille and saw the "Built Exclusively For Cadillac By GM" badge on the air cleaner on the old 4.9L V8. Who cares if parts are harder to find? Who cares if it's not as modifiable as a Chevy, Buick or Olds? We didn't buy Cadillacs because we wanted cars like everything else!

77CDV
10-14-10, 11:16 PM
Of course Cadillac could go all V6. And Michelangelo could have painted the Sistine Chapel in black and white. :helpless:

A luxury car has nothing whatsoever to do with practicality. If you want practical, buy a Camry, Accord or some other suitable appliance. Luxury cars are all about making a statement, that you want and demand something beyond the pedestrian. I would love to see Cadillac's next flagship go all out with a V12 or V16. Leave it with a six, and you may as well stick a trishield on the hood and call it the Buick it is. Luxury cars, TRUE luxury cars, have nothing less than an eight.

Not saying Cadillac can't continue with a near-luxury car like the CTS, where a six is acceptable and expected. But if Cadillac is still serious about going up against the best from MB, BMW, and Lexus, going with a six is like bring a pocket knife to nucluear warfare.

Jesda
10-14-10, 11:21 PM
Nothing wrong with a V6 if the 8 is optional.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-14-10, 11:46 PM
I also wouldn't mind a good diesel under the hood of a Cadillac. If M-B, BMW and Audi can do it, then why not us??? The Duramax would be an excellent companion to an Escalade or god forbid the return of the Fleetwood. I wish GM would hurry up and finish that 4.5L V-6 Duramax they were talking about throwing under the hoods of the half ton trucks, that would make good use in a CTS or STS.

ryannel2003
10-14-10, 11:54 PM
What I wish Cadillac could do is build a smoother V6. The mill in the current CTS is perfectly adequate... but compared to an inline-6 BMW or Nissan 3.5 it sounds coarse. Don't get me started on the weakling 3.0L V6 from SRX or base CTS's... gutless. Completely gutless.

I've driven a few V6 and V8 STS's and while the direct injection V6's offer up pretty much the same horsepower as the N* it just feels better behind the wheel. Gas mileage be damned... if you're buying a luxury car, you're not buying it for fuel economy and today's V8's do very well for themselves. If Cadillac would create a world class motor like they did in '93 and make it powerful, reliable (something they didn't do with that Northstar), and fuel efficient, it would really help out Cadillac's bottom line. What kills me is GM has the resources and they are instead spending it on FWD SRX's and XTS's when Cadillac needs to be serious about being mentioned in the same sentence as BMW and Mercedes without having to refer to the V-Series cars.

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 09:27 AM
Of course Cadillac could go all V6. And Michelangelo could have painted the Sistine Chapel in black and white. :helpless:

A luxury car has nothing whatsoever to do with practicality. If you want practical, buy a Camry, Accord or some other suitable appliance. Luxury cars are all about making a statement, that you want and demand something beyond the pedestrian.

True, but I personally don't think Cadillac is after this. In parallel to the other thread, I agree that they are near-luxury.

True no-nonsense luxury is for those who feel money is no object, have no budget, who make no sacrifices. This isn't who Cadillac targets. That's for Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, etc. Cadillac never was striving for this class in the past, is not currently, and probably never will.

The fact of the matter is that most, if not all people who walk into a Cadillac dealer have some sort of predetermined budget limitation. Far from every Cadillac sold at the dealer comes decked out with every option available. Sacrifices are made, and the people who buy Cadillacs are willing to make sacrifices in order to have the satisfaction of owning the car. Those that aren't willing to make sacrifices aren't walking into the Cadillac dealer to begin with, so why should Cadillac start catering to them now?

We, with myself included are good examples. Many of the discussions in the lounge focus on vehicle VALUE. If Cadillac offered that new V8, RWD full sized Cadillac that everyones wishing for tomorrow, how many of you would walk into the dealer and pick one up? How many would appreciate and support Cadillac by taking their money and going to buy one NEW? I know it'd be really easy to respond to this and say "I would in a heartbeat", but be honest with yourself - would it really make the difference between you buying a new Cadillac car or continuing on your used or new other-brand trend? We are the enthusiasts here, we should be some of the first ones in the door setting the example. Instead, I'm afraid most of us interested would wait until they hit the used market and then MAYBE consider it. Cadillac isn't designing vehicles with us in mind. I think some of us are getting too caught up in the "well, we are the enthusiasts here so what we want is obviously what's best for Cadillac" mentality. However, cars like the V6 CTS apparently work for those who Cadillac cares about...those who walk into the dealer and actually buy Cadillac's cars new. If attracting new customers like the CTS did isn't success, then I don't know what is. So why shouldn't Cadillac continue to cater to them?

That said, I don't think the engine type will determine Cadillac's failure or success. The V6 will be perfectly adequate. Cadillac needs to focus on other areas of the car before worrying about something like this.

The Tony Show
10-15-10, 10:29 AM
Men today are gutless pansies, and buy more based on "eco" and "green" credentials than HP or torque. Studies show that more and more teens every year are disinterested in getting their driver licenses, preferring to live on chat rooms or playing Modern Warfare 2 on Playstation. When they eventually do get out on the road, today's status symbols among young people aren't the cars with the Holley double pumper or Hurst shifter- they're the ones with the best gas mileage or most effeminate design language. As such, expect more and more cars to go turbo 4 cylinder or small V6 with soft names like "Eco Boost" and "Ecotec", even premium cars like BMW and Cadillac.

In a perfect world Cadillac would still keep a high feature V8 for their (eventual) flagship car, but I still wonder if we'll see it in our lifetime.

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 10:37 AM
Men today are gutless pansies, and buy more based on "eco" and "green" credentials than HP or torque. Studies show that more and more teens every year are disinterested in getting their driver licenses, preferring to live on chat rooms or playing Modern Warfare 2 on Playstation. When they eventually do get out on the road, today's status symbols among young people aren't the cars with the Holley double pumper or Hurst shifter- they're the ones with the best gas mileage or most effeminate design language. As such, expect more and more cars to go turbo 4 cylinder or small V6 with soft names like "Eco Boost" and "Ecotec", even premium cars like BMW and Cadillac.


Unless high schools have changed since I graduated from mine in 2003, this is far from the truth. NO ONE gloated about fuel mileage. The "car guys" were talking performance, driving fox-body Mustangs, 80's f-bodies, a few "tuners" and a few classics in rough condition - all typical cars you'd see in a high school parking lot. We even had a "redneck" truck clan. The people who didn't care just plain didn't talk about cars.

High schoolers have nothing to do with Cadillac's ability to sell cars. They don't have money money to buy a new Cadillac, therefore Cadillac isn't trying for their business.

I do agree that there is less interest in driving though. However, I feel it's due to the increased cost. Driving now is more expensive than ever. Insurance costs are through the roof, labor charges on repair continue to climb, not to mention fuel costs. It's a massive financial responsibility for a high schooler, especially when it's set alongside any other extras like smartphones and their service bills. The people I knew in high school that were driving nice cars like the Mustangs and Camaros weren't doing it themselves either. They had help from mommy and daddy, whether that was the initial cost of the car, insurance help, or gas allowance. In the mean time, not getting any external help, I was driving my rotted out 200k mile '84 Delta 88. Just because I didn't have a performance car with a hurst shifter didn't mean I wasn't interested.

In contrast, video games are relatively cheap considering you hear of people sticking weeks or even months into a single $50 game. $50 is merely a weeks worth of gas for a high miling high schooler with a "cool" car.

Stingroo
10-15-10, 10:39 AM
I agree with your post, Tony. It's true honestly. In my high school, most of the kids had the "tuner" type cars. One kid had a fox body that was modified to hell and back, and another guy who was actually one of my best friends had a WRX that was the fastest car of them all.

Like I've said in other posts, when I got the wagon and showed it to my best friend he asked what kind of motor it had, and I said "A 350", and smiled. He looked at me like I had committed a sin and said "What? Why?" I was kind of surprised by that. I'm in the other camp. I couldn't care less about gas mileage. If I can afford it, I'll drive it. "Eco" to me is another synonym for "slow".

Granted - some companies are working to eliminate that (see Tesla, Porsche) but really, if a V8 is offered, I'd buy it every time over a 6. It doesn't bother me that I'm "unfriendly" to the environment one bit.

[flame suit on]

Lord Cadillac
10-15-10, 12:05 PM
Drew. Lincoln is on the verge of going away for good. Too many people see the similarities between Lincolns and Fords. And they're further down the "near luxury" poll than Cadillac is. Lincoln's image isn't getting any better in the eyes of people who buy premium luxury cars. And, yes - Cadillac WAS a premium luxury car maker at one point in time. In fact, they were compared closely to Rolls Royce at one time. Times have certainly changed. But Lincoln certainly isn't anything that Cadillac should be looking up to. I love the new Lincoln design theme - I'm virtually alone...

The V6 hasn't saved Lincoln and it certainly isn't going to in the future - unless Lincoln is going to become the new Mercury. Who wouldn't expect Lincoln to be doing better now that they've got new designs? Even though it appears most people don't like the new theme, people who buy Lincolns apparently do. The old models were getting stale and stopped selling. The new models SHOULD sell more. Shouldn't they?

Cadillac absolutely DOES want (and need) to compete with Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Audi, Jaguar and Hyundai. In my opinion, they can use a V6 or turbo 4 in the smaller cars - but from the 5-Series sized cars and up - they at LEAST need a V8 option.

Hyundai knows how to play here.. They have the Genesis bringing people into dealerships to sell Sonatas. And here comes the Equus. These are cars that attract attention. People walk in looking at an Equus and leave with a Sonata. That's what a flagship does. People buy something less expensive but aspire to own the top model.

It's nice that Cadillac has an M5 competitor. But what do they have to compete with the 535i or 550i? How about the Infiniti M56? The Lexus GS460? They have the technology but they don't have the V8. There are too many customers to be lost to these companies with appropriate drivetrains available. And once you lose them, they don't usually come back.


Just some food for thought here - just pondering while taking a break from my Statics homework.

In recent threads a number of members have mentioned the recent positive physical change in Lincolns lineup, as well as their boost in image and exclusivity from Ford that they've achieved.

Besides their trucks, their passenger car lineup has all gone turbo V6 (I'm considering the TC dead at this point)... The MKS and MKZ are really helping the Lincoln brand name, attracting potential NEW customers, while the TC has been hampering it for 10 years plus, competing against itself in a dying market that attracts no NEW customers to Lincoln/Ford dealerships. However, I suppose, the TC had more problems than just the drivetrain.

Lincoln definitely isn't the most successful luxury car brand in the world, but is it just coincidental that they are doing better now than they have in years after abolishing traditional V8 powered luxury cars?

Also, I think some opinions are being tainted by the visualizations of what people THINK or WISH Cadillac should be rather than what it really is. I personally am posting in relation to what Cadillac is and what it seems to expect of itself. It doesn't seem that Cadillac has any desire to compete with the Veyron or McLaren, so I'm not really considering those in my thoughts.

Owning a Cadillac isn't about having a car that's "more than adequate". It's about driving in what is considered the "standard of the world". Maybe that should be Cadillac's new tag line. Cadillac: More Than Adequate

Why buy the "more than adequate" Cadillac when there are much better options?


Let's face it, it all comes down to exterior and interior design. If Cadillac can come up with really great designs it won't matter whether the car is powered be a V-8 or a V-6 as long as performance is more than adequate and the car looks great and is made with high grade materials they will have a winner, The 4th generation Seville is proof of that.

I agree, Jesda..


Nothing wrong with a V6 if the 8 is optional.

Cadillac isn't supposed to be the every man's car. It's supposed to be the automobile you aspire to own. How do you aspire to own something that just anybody can have? I'm not saying it has to cost $350,000.00 like a Rolls Royce Phantom. It should be just out of reach for the average working person. From there, you can get into an entry-level Cadillac and move up and you get older and earn more.

Like I mentioned earlier - Cadillac DID aspire to be premium luxury at one time. And they've been "luxury" for a long time after that. Only recently have things gone down hill to the point where GM executives refer to Cadillac as "near luxury". Cadillac should absolutely NOT be a "value" luxury company. This is backwards thinking. Why should Cadillac go backwards and turn into Hyundai when they can get their executive shit together and move forwards and win customers by building excellent vehicles?


True, but I personally don't think Cadillac is after this. In parallel to the other thread, I agree that they are near-luxury.

True no-nonsense luxury is for those who feel money is no object, have no budget, who make no sacrifices. This isn't who Cadillac targets. That's for Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, etc. Cadillac never was striving for this class in the past, is not currently, and probably never will.

The fact of the matter is that most, if not all people who walk into a Cadillac dealer have some sort of predetermined budget limitation. Far from every Cadillac sold at the dealer comes decked out with every option available. Sacrifices are made, and the people who buy Cadillacs are willing to make sacrifices in order to have the satisfaction of owning the car. Those that aren't willing to make sacrifices aren't walking into the Cadillac dealer to begin with, so why should Cadillac start catering to them now?

We, with myself included are good examples. Many of the discussions in the lounge focus on vehicle VALUE. If Cadillac offered that new V8, RWD full sized Cadillac that everyones wishing for tomorrow, how many of you would walk into the dealer and pick one up? How many would appreciate and support Cadillac by taking their money and going to buy one NEW? I know it'd be really easy to respond to this and say "I would in a heartbeat", but be honest with yourself - would it really make the difference between you buying a new Cadillac car or continuing on your used or new other-brand trend? We are the enthusiasts here, we should be some of the first ones in the door setting the example. Instead, I'm afraid most of us interested would wait until they hit the used market and then MAYBE consider it. Cadillac isn't designing vehicles with us in mind. I think some of us are getting too caught up in the "well, we are the enthusiasts here so what we want is obviously what's best for Cadillac" mentality. However, cars like the V6 CTS apparently work for those who Cadillac cares about...those who walk into the dealer and actually buy Cadillac's cars new. If attracting new customers like the CTS did isn't success, then I don't know what is. So why shouldn't Cadillac continue to cater to them?

That said, I don't think the engine type will determine Cadillac's failure or success. The V6 will be perfectly adequate. Cadillac needs to focus on other areas of the car before worrying about something like this.

Cadillac: More Than Adequate

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 04:20 PM
Say what you will about hyundia, they are making big bucks and big reputation right now with their higher trimmed cars. Both are what every auto manufacturer, including Cadillac, strives for.

Hyundai is obviously doing something right.

You mention that you don't think that Cadillac should be a value luxury car. That's fine if that's what you think. But like I said, to let your wishes for Cadillac blur what it actually is. The fact is that it IS a value luxury car. And, if you think about it, the V8 Northstar has been put in almost all Cadillacs since 1993, and it couldn't save Cadillac from that image.

Again, like I posted a few pages ago, V8's or V6's can't do enough good or damage to save Cadillac. There needs to be improvements elsewhere first,

Lord Cadillac
10-15-10, 04:35 PM
You're absolutely right! They're building big cars with V8s! I know - that's not WHY they're doing so great - but they're moving in the right direction. THEY are not focused on becoming a "value" brand. They ARE a value brand and they're working on becoming a premium brand. Cadillac WAS a premium brand and they're working on becoming a value brand. Right?

Chevy is working on a large, full-size RWD vehicle with a V8. Cadillac is NOT. Why? Cadillac is working on a FWD car that'll sit on the same platform as an Impala with a V6. Why?


Say what you will about hyundia, they are making big bucks and big reputation right now with their higher trimmed cars. Both are what every auto manufacturer, including Cadillac, strives for.

Hyundai is obviously doing something right.

You mention that you don't think that Cadillac should be a value luxury car. That's fine if that's what you think. But like I said, to let your wishes for Cadillac blur what it actually is. The fact is that it IS a value luxury car. And, if you think about it, the V8 Northstar has been put in almost all Cadillacs since 1993, and it couldn't save Cadillac from that image.

Again, like I posted a few pages ago, V8's or V6's can't do enough good or damage to save Cadillac. There needs to be improvements elsewhere first,

77CDV
10-15-10, 04:37 PM
Precisely. And you'll notice that a six is not an option for the Equus (flagship) though is it for the midlevel car (Genesis). Lexus leaves the six to the ES. No six in sight for the LS. Does MB or BMW still offer a six on the S or 7 series cars? Cadillac doesn't need eights across the board (though it would be nice), but for it's midlevel and up sedans, it's really just the price of admission to the class.

As for a RWD body on frame V8 cruiser, count me in. And I speak as someone who has bought brand new Cadillacs (three, in fact). Nothing Cadillac has right now excites or intrigues me. The DTS is ok, very nice even, but it could be so much better if it was RWD. The STS is too small and the CTS is smaller still. Hyundai, Lexus, MB, BMW, all build RWD V8 flagships. Why can't Cadillac?

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 04:40 PM
The V6 is good in the smaller cars, but a V8 should always be retained in the full sizes. Could you imagine a 3800 powered deVille?

Isn't that kind of like the Buick Lucerne that's been getting great reviews for the past few years?

It's pretty hard to relate to those comparisons of 15+ year old engines and models. A lot has changed since then.

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 04:42 PM
You're absolutely right! They're building big cars with V8s! I know - that's not WHY they're doing so great - but they're moving in the right direction. THEY are not focused on becoming a "value" brand. They ARE a value brand and they're working on becoming a premium brand. Cadillac WAS a premium brand and they're working on becoming a value brand. Right?

Chevy is working on a large, full-size RWD vehicle with a V8. Cadillac is NOT. Why? Cadillac is working on a FWD car that'll sit on the same platform as an Impala with a V6. Why?


Cadillac is building cars with V8's as well...the V series? But the V-series isn't saving them, is it?

OK so wait here. Is this thread about V6 vs V8 or is this FWD vs RWD. What are you arguing?

Lord Cadillac
10-15-10, 04:44 PM
I think a full-size with a V6 makes more sense for Buick than it does for Cadillac. We had the Park Avenue with a V6 for a long time and that seemed to do okay. Buick isn't Cadillac, though...

77CDV
10-15-10, 04:46 PM
Basically, it's about six vs. eight. Whether RWD or FWD (or AWD) is a parallel subject. A case can be made for both. I prefer RWD. Chad makes a sound case for FWD. AWD seems a good compromise, but it adds weight and complexity. For myself, I'd like RWD standard with AWD as an option for you poor beggars in the snow country.

Lord Cadillac
10-15-10, 04:48 PM
The reason I posted this thread is because I want to know how people feel about Cadillac moving forward with a V6 (forget about the V-Series) in their luxury offerings. I "THINK" it's possible with today's technology to offer an experience with noise levels that may be as close to what we saw in 1989 with the Lexus LS.. That was EXCELLENT - even AMAZING back then. And I think most people would be thrilled with that.

However, I have to wonder if people who make a habit of buying top-tier luxury sedans will be so accepting. If a V6 car with enough technology can reach that level of NVH - it means a V8 with the same technology would be even better.. So is "good enough" good enough? That's what I want to know here.. I want to know how people feel about Cadillac moving forward with a V6 when it comes to NVH...

POWER is another story. Cadillac hasn't competed when it comes to power for awhile now. Only the non-luxury V-Series models have power. But we're not talking about these types of cars here. No AMG, M or V here.. Just luxury... It's what 99.9% of the people buy.


Cadillac is building cars with V8's as well...the V series? But the V-series isn't saving them, is it?

OK so wait here. Is this thread about V6 vs V8 or is this FWD vs RWD. What are you arguing?

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 04:52 PM
However, I have to wonder if people who make a habit of buying top-tier luxury sedans will be so accepting. If a V6 car with enough technology can reach that level of NVH - it means a V8 with the same technology would be even better.. So is "good enough" good enough? That's what I want to know here.. I want to know how people feel about Cadillac moving forward with a V6 when it comes to NVH...


Why are you so set on Cadillac wanting to hold onto their current, low volume customer base? Cadillac needs to EXPAND, attract NEW customers to the segment, which is why I brought up the CTS...it excelled at this. Cadillac is in a great position to attract virgin luxury sedan customers.

Even if Cadillac loses a few older customers, who really gives a rip when tons of new customers are flocking to their dealerships?

Advancement. It's a good thing.

Lord Cadillac
10-15-10, 04:58 PM
I think there's a possibility these are the wrong kind of customers. I'm out of time so I'll let this be.. All I know is - I have an inside connection at Cadillac and while he/she cannot give me many details, things are not looking good. In fact, they're looking very bad. That's all I can say. Here's to hoping Cadillac can change - for the better - before it's too late... :cheers:


Why are you so set on Cadillac wanting to hold onto their current, low volume customer base? Cadillac needs to EXPAND, attract NEW customers, which is why I brought up the CTS...it excelled at this. Cadillac is in a great position to attract virgin luxury sedan customers.

Even if Cadillac loses a few older customers, who really gives a rip when tons of new customers are flocking to their dealerships?

Advancement. It's a good thing.

drewsdeville
10-15-10, 05:01 PM
I think there's a possibility these are the wrong kind of customers. I'm out of time so I'll let this be.. All I know is - I have an inside connection at Cadillac and while he/she cannot give me many details, things are not looking good. In fact, they're looking very bad. That's all I can say. Here's to hoping Cadillac can change - for the better - before it's too late... :cheers:


Wrong customers? There is no such thing. Cadillac needs people to give them money for the product they produce, period. Very simple. The point of running a business is to MAKE MONEY. Anybody investing in your company is a great asset. The more investment you get, the better off you are.

Stingroo
10-15-10, 05:14 PM
Wrong customers? There is no such thing. Cadillac needs people to give them money for the product they produce, period. Very simple. The point of running a business is to MAKE MONEY. Anybody investing in your company is a great asset. The more investment you get, the better off you are.

^ This.

I'm interested to hear more of Sal's thoughts on what the "wrong customer" is.

gary88
10-15-10, 06:00 PM
Precisely. And you'll notice that a six is not an option for the Equus (flagship) though is it for the midlevel car (Genesis). Lexus leaves the six to the ES. No six in sight for the LS. Does MB or BMW still offer a six on the S or 7 series cars? Cadillac doesn't need eights across the board (though it would be nice), but for it's midlevel and up sedans, it's really just the price of admission to the class.


Six cylinder motors have been available in the A8/7-series/S Class for awhile, mostly as options in Europe where they're more popular. I don't think Audi/MB have sixes here, but I know BMW recently introduced the 740i over here which uses the N54.

And honestly if I were shopping for a 7-series, I'd seriously consider taking the 740i over the V8 750i. Better weight distribution, 200lbs lighter, and $11,000 cheaper all while still getting to 60 in 5.8 seconds.

And yes Cadillac should still have V8s. The key is to have an option for everyone.

gdwriter
10-15-10, 06:37 PM
And yes Cadillac should still have V8s. The key is to have an option for everyone.Agreed. If Cadillac aspires to offer a flagship model to compete with the S-Class/7-Series/A8/LS, a high-tech V8 must be available.

Didn't Cadillac have a next-generation V8 close to being done that was shelved after the big gas price spike in 2008? Could that work be resurrected?

hueterm
10-15-10, 08:00 PM
Not while your buddy is still in office ;-p

EChas3
10-15-10, 08:45 PM
A pushrod V8 can provide a lot of torque in a small efficient package. See the new Bently. Technolgy snobs may look down at these engines but it has its own elegance of design. When I can't get a Cadillac with a V8, I'll buy a car that does have one.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-15-10, 10:52 PM
Let's see here, just by looking at the past, how many years has Cadillac NOT offered a V8?

Zero.

Like Craig said, and I stated earlier, it's not necessary for every Cadillac to have a V8, but it should definitely be available/standard in their upper level cars, and I don't just mean the V Series. Yes, the Northstar is a dated engine and yes it's had a few issues, but they've all been sorted out as of now and people who buy them nowadays are very satisfied with them. I don't think cramming a small block Chevy motor (no matter how great they are and I do like them quite a bit) into the Cadillacs is a good idea....it sullies the name, putting an engine used in lower end GM's the most upmarket domestic brand out there. Part of the luxury mentality is "exclusivity", or the idea of being totally different and above the people in their lower model cars. Now some people may not care that their $75,000 Escalade ESV has the same engine as a Yukon Denali, but some wouldn't like it.

Over on the Brougham section, some people won't own a 90-92 Brougham because it has Chevrolet's (excellent) TBI 5.0 and 5.7 under their hoods, the same engine that was used in the Silverados, Sierras, Caprices, Suburbans and G-Vans. They'd simply rather have the Cadillac exclusive 425 or 368 used from 1977-81.

Anyways though, the CTS does just fine with it's V6's, but so does the C Class, A4, 3 Series, et al. A V8 has only been used in those cars in the top level performance versions, so putting a V8 in all of those would be a waste.

Jesda
10-15-10, 10:57 PM
Well, there was that brief period...

http://www.q45.org/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/normal_100_6908.jpg
:)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-15-10, 11:00 PM
Alright, lol, but how many years AFTER the prohibition era was Cadillac without a V8? :lol:

orconn
10-15-10, 11:32 PM
Common, Chad, Cadillac was the first production car to use the V-8 starting in 1914 ..... long before Prohibition started, and ninteen years before it ended!

Lord Cadillac
10-16-10, 01:05 AM
Regarding the wrong kind of customers... Cadillac should be selling fewer cars for more money to make the same profit as they would if they were selling more cars for less money. Fewer customers - less headaches - same income. The wrong kind of customers are people who can't afford luxury cars. If Cadillacs are affordable to everybody - and everybody is buying them - it makes the brand look bad - bad in the same way a Toyota Camry looks. Maybe not specifically "bad" - but not good. It doesn't look good for Cadillac when the manager at McDonalds is driving a brand new STS.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 09:25 AM
That doesn't work, friend.

Are you trying to say that since the CTS allows these "wrong" customers to taint the ideal Cadillac image that you have in your head, Cadillac should either can the CTS or beef it up to a $80k car, bailing on one of the only good things they have going for them right now?

Cadillac blindly closing the door on these customers just for the sake of the image created by directly competing with the very established BMW and MB would almost guarantee failure. It would never work. Image doesn't guarantee consistent sales, but a good product that's in demand always does. If Cadillac was really making an excellent product, do you think most would really care if the McDonalds manager was driving one? I know that I wouldn't limit myself solely based on that. If you drove into the slummy sides of Chicago right now, I'm sure you'd see a number of nice, shiny, higher end cars parked on the street in front of the rattiest house you've laid eyes on. Doesn't hurt the sales of those cars one bit. Similarly, if for whatever reason Ferrari started making garbage cars at a prestigious price, they'd still probably have a hard time making any money, regardless of the image.

All that matters is that the customer gets what they want. The CTS may not provide the image you personally want, but it sells. It'd be nothing less than silly to abandon it.

Image takes a long time to build and only a short time to kill. Most of us recognize that Cadillacs image had been tainted well before the Northstar was killed and most of the lineup went V6. The V6 is NOT hurting Cadillac. Like stated, earlier, there are much more important areas that need to be tackled that shadow something as simple as engine choice, sort of making the original question moot.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-16-10, 09:47 AM
Well, I see good points on both sides of the argument. Cars like the CTS, 3 Series, C Class, etc etc are the manufacturer's bread and butter, and they sell much more of those than they do the flagship models, and the money made from those allows for some truly cool stuff to be designed, engineered and built. They also give a great starting point into the world of their respective brands.



BUT, seeing everyone in those cars really drives DOWN the exclusivity of them. Like Sal said, it doesn't look good for the company when some snot nosed 18 year old punk can buy one new (with help from daddy or some excellent credit). Back in the old days, before credit was king and when Cadillacs were more expensive comparatively than they are now, only the really rich in town had Cadillacs, and you knew you were doing well when you could afford to go from your Chevy or Buick to a Cadillac.

The main reason that a Rolls Royce/Bentley/Maybach is so cool and has that "wow factor" is because they're so expensive, so they're unavailable to the masses, and only available to the really rich. Whenever you see someone in one of those cars you say to yourself "now, there's someone that's really made it!" Because you can't buy one of those on the cheap, whether it's new, five years old or thirty years old. That's the point that Sal is trying to make.

RippyPartsDept
10-16-10, 10:52 AM
Well, there was that brief period...

http://www.q45.org/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/normal_100_6908.jpg
:)

cool poster (or whatever that is)
...
check this out
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8176/mirrord.jpg (http://img651.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mirrord.jpg)


who's up for a day at the beach!?

also note... the apparent RHD??
and what a pimp!

(http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mirror2f.jpg)

Lord Cadillac
10-16-10, 11:31 AM
So at the time of this reply, we have 20 people who say Cadillac should keep a V8 to 2 people who feel they should not. It appears that most people feel even if Cadillac can mimic the NVH of a car like the Lexus LS in 1989 - which was extremely quiet - they'd rather have Cadillac keep up with the current best of the best - which means a V8 is needed. So "good enough" is not good enough...

Considering the fact that the only Cadillac vehicles with a V8 are going to be the Escalade and V-Series - how is Cadillac going to fare in the foreseeable future? My opinion is that Cadillac is going to lose CTS customers to cars like the Infiniti M56, Lexus GS460, BMW 535i, BMW 550i, Mercedes E550, Jaguar XF, Audi A6 and Hyundai Genesis. Anyone who wants a car like the CTS with a V8 has nowhere to go at Cadillac. Anyone who wants to move down to a V6 from any of the aforementioned models can do so without leaving the brand they already buy from. Customers want options. Cadillac is missing an important option - a V8. Considering V8s don't sell nearly as well as V6s, how much will a V8 negatively affect Cadillac in regards to CAFE?

Having a V8 as an option saves those customers who WANT a V8 (like many of us here). Instead, Cadillac basically sends these customers elsewhere. I really don't believe there'd be enough of a problem with CAFE considering most of the cars sold with be with a V6. And EVEN if there WAS going to be trouble - why not simply tack on a "CAFE fee" to cover the cost to Cadillac? Let the customer pay for it. If they want a V8, they'll pay it. They're going to be the higher price for a V8 at another brand anyway.

I think it's a very bad idea for Cadillac to be handing customers over to these other brands. Most people are very impressed with their ownership from these companies. Not only is the fit and finish and build quality better (far more often than not), resale is better. Customer service is better. Performance is better.. Why would they come back? These customers are probably lost for good...

P.S. Remember, I'm only mentioning the CTS here. We have the SRX without a V8, I don't believe the current STS has a V8 anymore. I think the DTS may be losing it's V8 - but it doesn't matter anyway because the STS and DTS are both gone to be replaced by a heavy XTS with a 3.6 liter V6.

drewsdeville
10-16-10, 11:35 AM
I can agree to some of this.

I guess I didn't make this clear enough. I don't feel that it's unwise to offer a V8 as an option. It may be a good idea in certain models. Like you said, options are good.

Will a V8 save them from their current situation? Or, is the lack of a V8 the primary cause of their current situation? Absolutely not. Cadillac has been V8-less for only a very short time now, and they were in trouble well before the V6's took over, even with the high-tech, high powered (at least, in the '90's) Northstar V8.

Lord Cadillac
10-16-10, 12:02 PM
Will a V8 save Cadillac from their current situation? No. Not alone... But will a lack of a V8 worsen their situation? Yes, in my opinion it will. All the brands I mentioned in my last post have both V6 customers and V8 customers. In the foreseeable future, everyone but Cadillac retains both. Cadillac's V8 customers will get distributed to all those other brands. The customers of those other brands don't need to go anywhere if they want a V6.