: Ok guys, let's show some love for small cars!



I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-06-10, 07:36 PM
Yeah yeah I know we're a Cadillac forum, so that means by and large we like large vehicles, but I for one like a few smaller cars too.

I always liked Hondas. It seems they've always made a well thought out car that anyone can really afford and enjoy to drive. Unlike so many other cars in their class, they're actually really fun to drive while being cheap to own, reliable and really enjoyable overall. I've never known anyone to own a Honda and say they didn't enjoy it. I think Civics, especially the coupes, are great little daily drivers that can be thrown around without any worry or concern, and they're kinda fun to drive in a very tossable way. I say this loosely, but they're kinda like the poor man's 3 Series. Accords are nice too, but they're larger than the Civics and not as quite as fun to drive, even if the V-6 ones are downright fast (I compared an '09 Civic LX Coupe against an '05 Accord EX-V6 one day a few years ago and the Civic brought a bigger smile to my face)

Acura's first generation RSX and TSX are two favorites of mine too. Everyone always praised their handling capabilities, their high revving VTEC I-4's and how fun to drive they were, and they still felt like a really high end car too, especially the TSX with it's heated leather seats, wood grain or aluminum trim, factory navigation, high end audio, etc etc.

Mini Cooper is another small car that I've always been impressed with. They have so much character and spunk, and they're so lovable (chicks dig them too) and a blast to drive! I also test drove a few '09 models last year and really enjoyed them. The Cooper S was silly fast and so tossable and light on it's feet, and even the base Cooper was still decently quick and extremely tossable. They have a certain enthusiast appeal too that most cars in it's class don't. It may be a small car, but it's certainly not a penalty box.

I sat in an '11 Fiesta Sedan for the first time today as well. Really impressed with it, especially considering it's competition (Aveo, Versa, Yaris, Rio, Fit). The car had a lot of personality inside and out and definitely didn't look or feel as cheap and boring as the others in it's class.

The new Volkswagen GTi's were always nice looking & driving cars for their class too. I drove one of those that same time too and really loved it's sportiness, but it still rode like a big heavy German sedan. It felt so much more solid and heavy than the Cooper S, and a lot more youthful and invigorating than the Volvo C30. VW does make a good looking and driving car, too bad their reliability has been so poor.

Mazda 3 is a great little car too, perhaps more of a "mini 3 Series" than the Civic, because with the 3, you could get heated leather seats, xenon headlights and an auto HVAC system.

The Chevrolet Cruze looks promising too, a lot better than the Cobalt, which was a big step above the Cavaliers.

How about you guys?

Jesda
10-06-10, 07:38 PM
Miata
Miata
Miata

Why the hell haven't I owned one?

77CDV
10-06-10, 08:57 PM
Well, I will confess a fondness for the old Nash Metropolitans, esp. the convertibles. Beyond that, Bill Mitchell was right, designing a small car is like tailoring for a dwarf.

ThumperPup
10-06-10, 09:05 PM
smaller car one that i would love to own a SLR Mclarin not spelled corectly LOL

another one id love a 1955 speedster convertible

Honda Prelude any year euro right hand drive

a Lexus IS

drewsdeville
10-06-10, 09:07 PM
Well, I will confess a fondness for the old Nash Metropolitans, esp. the convertibles. Beyond that, Bill Mitchell was right, designing a small car is like tailoring for a dwarf.

'91-'96 Ford Escort/Mercury Tracer/Mazda Protege. One of the first common compacts to feature 4 wheel independent suspension and an electronically controlled trans in auto config...something only GM's higher end models were just debuting with at the time.

On top of it all, a proven track record for incredible reliability. It's too bad they were so prone to SEVERE rust, mainly the rear quarters and strut towers. I swear they started rusting when they were new on the showroom floor.

Simple, low cost of ownership, and fun (in 5 speed config).

If I was given the opportunity to get another one in clean condition for an even trade with my current Caddy, I'd dive in head first. Unfortunately, clean variants don't exist here.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-06-10, 09:19 PM
Oh yeah, thats right, any of these I'd buy would be a stick shift.

ted tcb
10-06-10, 09:42 PM
Sitting in my garage right now is a 91 stick Miata, and a 2010 stick Mazda3 Sport.

Coming from owning small Hondas in the eighties, the Mazda 3 seems to be the Prelude's successor.
It's fast, has great sightlines, handles like a go cart, and the interior is as well built as any car I've owned.
The 2 litre motor is unbelievably balanced and smooth.
It begs to rev, and the 5 speed has a wonderful action.
I tested a 6spd GT with the 2.5 motor, but much preferred the 5 speed/2 litre combo.

First thing I did to the 3 was add the 17" GT rims, cruise and satellite stereo controls, clear bra, and seat heaters.
The hatch has come in handy many times, and there are zero squeaks or rattles.

Like the Miata, the Mazda 3 is a blast around town at legal speeds.
Many days, its a tough choice between choosing which car to drive ... the manual 3 is that nice.

I love small cars, if they are standard shift with flexible, smooth drivetrains.

Destroyer
10-06-10, 10:05 PM
Miata
Miata
Miata

Why the hell haven't I owned one?
You don't fit in one? :lildevil:

hueterm
10-06-10, 10:13 PM
To me, my ETC IS a small car. I guess an SL500 would be smaller, in length, anyway.

So basically -- hellano...

ga_etc
10-06-10, 10:15 PM
I love driving something small and sporty myself. The list of small cars that I wouldn't mind parking in the driveway...

Mazda Protege MP3/speed/5
Mazda Miata
VW R32
Lexus IS300
Chevy Cobalt SS
Ford Fucus errr... Focus
Ford Escort GT
Mercury Capri XR2
VW Corrado
Honda Prelude
'92-'96 Toyota Camry
and a lot more I'm sure I'm not thinking of right now. A manual transmission is a requirement.

billc83
10-06-10, 10:27 PM
Fear the wrath of Powel Crosley, Jr.!

http://www.kitfoster.com/images/2006-12-6_Crosley51SupSptsWeb-Large.jpg

Of course, if that's too big for you, you can always pick up one of these:
http://www.kingmidgetworks.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/krisking2.jpg

orconn
10-06-10, 11:39 PM
I can'yt claim to have much knowledge of small American cars of the last three decades. The one small American car that I was impressed with was the last generation Corvair. Those were really neat compact cars with their great independent (not swing axle) rear suspension and reasonable power made accessable by their decent four speed manual transmission. No need for power steering. I'd like to have of the convertibles today.

The small European cars that I have always loved were first the Alafa Romeo 1600 Giulia roadster of 1967. I loved the Duetto which followed it too, but the Giulia will always be first among my favorites. My Scirocco was a definite winner and has cause me to return to my local VW dealership to check out new iterations of the GTI. I really regret not buying a new Corrado when they came out. Another greta small car of the seventies and on into the eighties was the Fiat 124 not as good as an Alfa Duetto spider but a great little fun car for the money.

I also wouldn't mind having a Miata, I am too old to worry about journalistic inuendos and stereotypes, let's face fun is fun and everyone enjoys a great little car .... if they are man enough to try one!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-06-10, 11:40 PM
What was the difference between the Scirocco, Corrado and GTi?

orconn
10-07-10, 12:14 AM
What was the difference between the Scirocco, Corrado and GTi?

The Scirocco was a special body (built by Karmann) built on a VW Golf (originally Rabbit)chassis, that was sportier than a regular VW both in performance and handling (but not all that much sportier. The Corrado was VW's attempt to really move up market in the early '90s and it was a higher grade and higher performance (by alot) sport coupe in the VW line. I don't believe the Corrado shared any body compaonaents with the Golf model. Equipped with a V-6 the Corrado was a very good handling coup which has a strong enthusiats following today. The GTI was a highly tweaked Rabbit (later Golf) that shared its' body with a regular VW Golf (Rabbit) but had special tuned suspension a nd a more power version of VWs $ cylinder and in some '90's models a V-6. The GTI was a higher grade car both in options and handling than a standard Golf or Jetta and is often giving credit for starting the "pocket rocket" movent among small inexpensive cars.

ga_etc
10-07-10, 01:04 AM
Scirocco
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Silver_VW_Scirocco_I.jpg

Corrado
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Corrado_VR6_Storm.JPG

The-Dullahan
10-07-10, 01:08 AM
Grand Marquis counts as a small car, right? I never had anything smaller in the family.

I do however like Jeep Wranglers, particularly the Extended Cab variation, and I guess that's about as small.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 01:16 AM
The 4-door Wranglers are weird. Something's just not right about that.


As far as small cars, I don't really like many. I'd take a MKIV Golf VR6 though. Almost did, but then I thought about FIXING it. :lol:

ryannel2003
10-07-10, 01:37 AM
Never been a big fan of small cars, mainly because I've always been attracted to 4 door sedans and a few larger coupes. My favorite small car remains the Honda Prelude, a car that will always have a place in my heart. Great styling, reliable, and excellent handling are just a few of the Prelude's greatest traits. Here is my buddy's 4th and 5th Gen. The 5th Gen has to be one of the better handling vehicles i've ever driven. Unfortunately, the motor was hydro-locked the other week thanks to all the rain NC had and is now for sale :(

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/Ryans%2094%20Prelude%20VTEC/IMG_0294.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/Ryans%2094%20Prelude%20VTEC/36936_139147662764211_100000069357579_420838_32873 96_n.jpg

Koooop
10-07-10, 01:44 AM
If we're talking about older Boost Boxes:

1) Renult R5 Turbo II
2) Dodge Omni GLHS
3) Mazda 323 4wd Turbo










Dead Last) Chevette

77CDV
10-07-10, 02:45 AM
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn307/tigerstrypes/Awesome%20Machines/1983-Cadillac-Cimarron-Car-.jpg

This small car needs all the love it can get!

Aron9000
10-07-10, 03:16 AM
Nissan had some great small cars back in the 90's, but I can't stand their current lineup.

Sentra SE-R

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/04/1994.nissan.sentra.8194-e.jpg

240SX, RWD baby!! Too bad the only motor you could get in this country was a damn truck motor, Japan got all the cool turbo 4 bangers.:banghead:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3260/4361/8149680001_medium.jpg

300ZX Twin turbo, probably the best looking design to ever come out of japan

http://media.motortopia.com/files/8806/vehicle/482b4d4697946/WESD_080328_0403.jpg

Playdrv4me
10-07-10, 03:24 AM
Mercedes 190E Cosworth:
http://www.classiccarshop.co.uk/images/Mercedes%20190E%20Cosworth-Large.jpg

Subaru WRX STi (pre-gay body):
http://image.hotrod.com/f/26263425+w750+st0/hrdp_0401_03_z+2004_subaru_impreza_WRX_STi+front_v iew.jpg

Ford Focus SVT (almost bought one of these):
http://www.dragtimes.com/images/12016-2004-Ford-Focus.jpg

Volkswagen Cabriolet... yes, fully gay but the 80s one is just cool:
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2007/05/01/12/21/1991_volkswagen_cabriolet_2_dr_std_convertible-pic-27938.jpeg

And one of my all time favorites... Honda Del-Sol and Del-Sol VTEC:
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2009/10/02/09/46/1997_honda_civic_del_sol_2_dr_vtec_coupe-pic-3549590922658325596.jpeg

Jesda
10-07-10, 04:38 AM
You don't fit in one? :lildevil:

Its actually been 5 or 6 years since I last sat in one. I hope I still do

C&C
10-07-10, 04:40 AM
The new Chevy Cruze looks to be a winner (also coming, same platform, is the Buick Verano); both should be premium small cars.

But my favorite fallback (small car) gotta be the Vette (any flavor).

Sevillian273
10-07-10, 06:15 AM
1991 Eldorado ETC. That's a small car I'd like to get ahold of.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-07-10, 07:39 AM
Wait, Buick is getting a version of the Cruze as well too? I though GM was finally done "badge engineering" everything.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 07:51 AM
YES! Z32 300ZX. I'm actually really really REALLY thinking about picking one of those up in the next couple of years, assuming my financial situation improves significantly (i.e. full time job... stupid Florida job market). My friend has a Z31 that he's all passionate about and at first I hated it, but it's actually started to grow on me. :hide:

ga_etc
10-07-10, 09:05 AM
I like the Rabbit too. I could even deal with a later model Cabriolet. :hide:

I would so rock a 300ZX of either body style. I love the styling of the 280ZX as well. My parents had a silver one. :drool: I loved that car. Always liked the Del Sol too.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 09:09 AM
I hate the older Z's. I don't know why, it just doesn't do it for me.

ga_etc
10-07-10, 09:20 AM
http://http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T-Top-Nissan-Cloth-interior-blue-color-/280569334144?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41533c4980

I love the ones with the pop up lights. They are so '80s, and I dig it. I could see myself driving that listening to "Come on Eileen" or "Tainted Love".

V-Eight
10-07-10, 11:16 AM
One of the few asian cars I would ever buy.

http://www.performancewheel.com/cw2/assets/Gallery/Blue%20Subaru%20STI.jpg

Stingroo
10-07-10, 11:51 AM
Ew, you picked the one with the ugly nose though.

Credibility lost.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 11:53 AM
duplicate, WTF? Two minutes later?

Bro-Ham
10-07-10, 12:26 PM
I like the Fiat Jolly :) Yes, those are wicker seats. :)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdBDogBMVMk1uBDfLjAG6Mr8RpI6EK_ M5X31myhlmbTBwUtpc&t=1&usg=__khKtQnghuDBiuUUcsg0g-1wdPHY=

And I'm with Craig, I love the Cimarron. :)

Stingroo
10-07-10, 12:29 PM
Cimarron is a fail of epic proportions.

Even if orange.

gdwriter
10-07-10, 01:00 PM
Driving my former '99 Accord coupe recently, I do appreciate the advantages of light weight; it's very tossable. Still prefer the Seville, though.

I also like the Mazda 3, and the new Cruze looks to be winner (even with the stupid name; why not bring back Monza, which wasn't a bad car and pretty good looking for its day? Or Nova?). And speaking of small Chevrolets, I love the Corvair, especially the second generation.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 01:01 PM
Good God PLEASE don't bring back Nova.

V-Eight
10-07-10, 01:08 PM
Ew, you picked the one with the ugly nose though.

Credibility lost.

Funny, that's the only one who's styling I like. The ones before that looked like bubbles and the new ones look gay (except they get dual exhaust).

Stingroo
10-07-10, 03:10 PM
I like the new hatchback ones, actually. And normally I HATE HATE HATE hatchbacks.

Ideally, I'd take a 22B Impreza. Mmmmm.

V-Eight
10-07-10, 04:33 PM
Those older ones are probably the worst riding car I've ever been in. Granted the one my friend imported has a roll cage, aftermarket shocks, and other goodies - I'm sure that even in stock form they aren't very comfortable.

orconn
10-07-10, 04:37 PM
Have Bro-Ham and Craig gotten into a bad batch of "white lightening" or just been drinking wood alchohol .... I mean really the Cimmaron! The Vega was a POS and the Cimmaron was just a gusied up POS!.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 04:39 PM
Ride schmide. Who buys a car like that for the comfort?

And Orconn, I think they've gotten themselves into the varnish again.

Koooop
10-07-10, 04:39 PM
Apparently!

Cimarron was the Caddy that made you puke.

ga_etc
10-07-10, 04:46 PM
2011 WRX STi
http://image.motortrend.com/f/33873642+w750/2011-subaru-impreza-WRX-STI-front-three-quarters-passenger.jpg

Stingroo
10-07-10, 04:48 PM
Much nicer, but I still prefer the old ones.

ben.gators
10-07-10, 07:08 PM
Generally this is my reaction when I see an small car::wtf: but there are a few ones that I do not mind driving them, for example:
http://www.zcars.com.au/images/mitsubishi-lancer-sportback-ralliart1.jpg

Stingroo
10-07-10, 07:13 PM
Hideous. WRX > Evo.

orconn
10-07-10, 07:47 PM
While I can see Jesda and Newton, outfitted in W.W. I leather flying casp, long scarves and bomber fleece jackets, tooling the wide open spaces of wall to wall corn in their Lotus Super 7 ....... I can't see most of joining them! No for the thrill of small car driving, if your ego can't stand the innuendos of a Miata, mosey on down to your VW dealer and try out a new GTI with a six speed (and whatever other accessories you just have to have). Forget that you will be paying thru the nose for your "German Engineering" when the warrantee runs out, and just enjoy a really neat "pocket rocket" that will put a smile on your face on your way to work and when you drive in it going home at night!

77CDV
10-07-10, 07:56 PM
Have Bro-Ham and Craig gotten into a bad batch of "white lightening" or just been drinking wood alchohol .... I mean really the Cimmaron! The Vega was a POS and the Cimmaron was just a gusied up POS!.


Apparently!

Cimarron was the Caddy that made you puke.

The title of the thread asked to show some love for small cars. I never said I liked the Cimmaron, but you have to admit if there ever was a car that lacks for love, it's the Cimmaron (and the rest of the J cars). From Chevy up through Cadillac, they were all execrable.

orconn
10-07-10, 08:08 PM
Thankyou, Craig, for adding a new word to my vocabulary "execrable." I have know many words that apparently have come from the same root, but I hadn't taken note pf "execrable" as yet! I must use the word next time I run into something or one that is truly detestable!

77CDV
10-07-10, 11:16 PM
I know what you're thinking, Orconn, and surprisingly, its not related to "excrement", but rather to a Middle Latin root that translates as "accursed".

Remember to read and summarize Chapter Three of your textbooks, boys and girls, due tomorrow. Class dismissed. :D

Bro-Ham
10-07-10, 11:17 PM
I like the Cimarron, and it is certainly much better than the Catera. :)

77CDV
10-07-10, 11:18 PM
I like the Cimarron, and it is certainly much better than the Catera. :)

I'd have to say it's a close-run thing between the two as to which is the less objectionable.

Bro-Ham
10-07-10, 11:20 PM
Craig, sometimes you remind me of all the catholic priests I had as college professors. :)

Stingroo
10-07-10, 11:21 PM
Do you have your textbook in pompousPad format? Otherwise I refuse to download

(I've noticed, today especially, iPad owners FTL)


(Jesda excluded)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-07-10, 11:22 PM
My second boss has an iPad and he's a cool guy. I don't much care for the machine though.

77CDV
10-07-10, 11:28 PM
Craig, sometimes you remind me of all the catholic priests I had as college professors. :)

13 years of Catholic school will do that to a guy. I can still do a wicked Irish nun impression. Just ask Chamus.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 11:30 PM
How did I miss that? I'm kinda bummed now. :lol:

Bro-Ham
10-07-10, 11:32 PM
I only had 4 years of catholic college. It was enough. All the priests in training wanted me to become a priest too. They didn't seem to care that I wasn't even catholic and never went to church... :)

orconn
10-08-10, 12:01 AM
I like the Cimarron, and it is certainly much better than the Catera. :)

You really have to be kidding! The Catera was a half decent European sedan at a very reasonable price. Fit and fitnnish on the 2000 Cateras was superior to the Sevilles and Devilles sitting on the dealer's showroom floor at that time and far superior to the much ballyhoo-ed Lincoln LS of the same year. While it was perhaps under powered compared with the V-8 powered cars of that period, the Catera had solid European engineering from an executive class carmaker, and performed quite favorably with the entry level BMW 5 series of 2000.

The Cimarron was a badge engineered attempt to put one over on Cadillac or aspiring Cadillac buyers. Starting with a lowly econbox chassis they proceeded to add Cadillac frosting, but little else. Yes it had Cadillac upholstery and emblems, but it retained virtually unchanged all the other components that made the Vega such a poorly put together POS.

The big problem with the Catera was it really shouldn't have been a Cadillac in the first place. The "Caddy that Zigs" ad campaign that was supposed to attract up and coming professional woman to Cadillac failed miserably. But taken on its'' merits as an entry level "executive" saloon, acccessorized like a high dollar 5 series degree for 2/3s the price it was a pretty impresive car in the early new century.

Bro-Ham
10-08-10, 12:31 AM
Catera was just awful. I don't know of any woman who would wear such an automotive outfit, much less be seen in public in it.

Cimarron was a little turd of a car, but it could at least pretend to be a Cadillac of its era during the first two or three years. :)

Koooop
10-08-10, 12:38 AM
The "Caddy that Zigs". For a long period of time you (or a used car dealership) could not buy an aftermarket warranty on Catera. This is the only car I have ever encountered this on. (I was trying not to call it a turd there Bro)

The V8 LS is a fun, nice quality, reliable, well balanced sedan. The little DOHC V8 is a sweet little motor in a tight sedan. It's to bad Ford didn't pony up and put a few hundred more HP in that car as the platform was outstanding.

ga_etc
10-08-10, 02:04 AM
orconn you keep comparing the Cimarron to the Chevy Vega... Was the Cavalier based on the Vega platform?

Jesda
10-08-10, 02:24 AM
I recently looked inside a Catera rotting away next to some VW Routan's at a dealer's "stuff we cant get rid of so we dump it all here" lot. The interior was quite nice. It even smelled good. On the outside, the car looked like a Corolla.

Playdrv4me
10-08-10, 02:30 AM
In fairness, as opposed to the Cimarron, which never had many redeeming qualities, the Catera was a fairly appealing package by 2001. Reasonable power and torque, rear wheel drive, German driving characteristics, Xenon headlights and LED tail lamps (with one of the earliest applications of LED turn signals in the back, if not THE earliest), a kicking Bose stereo and comfortable, if somewhat austere interior. The Sport model even had some great looking Audi style shoes. The problem is, the thing never remotely intimated a Cadillac in any form or fashion short of having a wreath and crest slapped on it. What the car genuinely was, was a much more interesting and higher quality alternative to any other domestic mid-size blah save for the Lincoln LS.

A 2001 Catera Sport actually makes a stupidly cheap bargain of a used car in the price range of an Impala LT or Taurus SEL. Just don't pretend its a Cadillac... ever.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/comparison/2001/luxury_sedan/catera/01.cadillac.catera.r3-4.500.jpg

billc83
10-08-10, 03:10 AM
The Cimarron was based on the GM's J-platform. The platform will go down in history as the most blatent use of badge engineering; almost EVERY GM brand had its own J-Car. Other J-Cars included the Olds Firenza, Buick Skyhawk, Pontiac Sunbird, and most famously the Chevy Cavalier.


Cimarron was a little turd of a car, but it could at least pretend to be a Cadillac of its era during the first two or three years. :)

The Cimarron became a much better car after its facelife in '86. In its last years, just about every optional upgrade became standard. It was still overpriced.

Cadillac was originally not going to get the Cimarron, and when the change was made, Cadillac corporate only had something like 24 hours to green light the final design.

Ironically enough, the Cimarron sold fairly well when it was first introduced, especially with its target demographic (Cadillac owners who wanted a smaller second car and younger folks who would probably shop a smaller luxury import).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-08-10, 07:45 AM
I haven't seen a Cimarron in years, so as far as I'm concerned that car is just a part of Cadillac folklore and doesn't really exist. :)

The Catera however, should be avoided at all costs. It's cheap, but for a reason. Nobody likes working on them because they're hard to diagnose and hard to find parts for, being everything was short lived and Opel sourced. They're not terribly reliable (my best friend's dad had an '00 Sport model from '01 to '04, and in that time he managed to put three different alternators into it), and they really have no redeeming qualities (OK, maybe the RWD) over a similar year STS or SLS.

drewsdeville
10-08-10, 10:00 AM
they really have no redeeming qualities (OK, maybe the RWD) over a similar year STS or SLS.

???

In comparable model years, a STS does not and cannot compete with the Catera. They aren't even the same genre. Have you driven one? Completely different animals. Each have their own set of good qualities and attributes. For example, when pushed to the limits, the Catera makes my grandparents 2000 STS feel like a complete turd from behind the wheel.

The Catera has numerous redeeming qualities over the same model year STS.

Also, diagnosing a Catera is no different than any other car. It uses an engine, transmission, lower control arms w/ struts and rack and pinion steering like most other cars from the era. There's nothing really out of the ordinary about it, besides the RWD whcih wasn't common. I've diagnosed them without much trouble.

Jesda
10-08-10, 01:15 PM
The Catera was a mistake. It should have been sold as an Olds or Pontiac. And until 2000 they were horribly unreliable.

gdwriter
10-08-10, 01:22 PM
The title of the thread asked to show some love for small cars. I never said I liked the Cimmaron, but you have to admit if there ever was a car that lacks for love, it's the Cimmaron (and the rest of the J cars). From Chevy up through Cadillac, they were all execrable.


Thankyou, Craig, for adding a new word to my vocabulary "execrable." I have know many words that apparently have come from the same root, but I hadn't taken note pf "execrable" as yet! I must use the word next time I run into something or one that is truly detestable!Abominable is another good synonym. Of course, I really like some made-up synonyms like:


Craptastic
Craptacular
Vomitrocious

orconn
10-08-10, 02:34 PM
I haven't seen a Cimarron in years, so as far as I'm concerned that car is just a part of Cadillac folklore and doesn't really exist. :)

The Catera however, should be avoided at all costs. It's cheap, but for a reason. Nobody likes working on them because they're hard to diagnose and hard to find parts for, being everything was short lived and Opel sourced. They're not terribly reliable (my best friend's dad had an '00 Sport model from '01 to '04, and in that time he managed to put three different alternators into it), and they really have no redeeming qualities (OK, maybe the RWD) over a similar year STS or SLS.

To compare a Catera (bottom of the line) to a STS/SLS (top of the line) is really silly, like a base Mercedes C class and a S class. Cadillac's abondoning any worthwhile support of the Catera and its' German origins and parts prices make it a poor choice for a ten year, or older, "beater." But then so is a Mercedes, BMW orVW for someone on a fixed low budget!

Jesda
10-08-10, 02:47 PM
The CTS's success is an affirmation of everything that was completely wrong with Catera.

drewsdeville
10-08-10, 03:05 PM
I don't think anyone is disputing that the Catera was unsuccessful... there's not much to say about that really. It didn't sell.

It's the comparison between the STS/SLS and the Catera (or later CTS for that matter) that doesn't make much sense.

orconn
10-08-10, 03:22 PM
The Catera was a mistake. It should have been sold as an Olds or Pontiac. And until 2000 they were horribly unreliable.

Eventually it was .... as a Pontiac GTO! A very creditable piece of transportation. I doubt that those who sound off about how bad the Catera was have ever driven one, much less compared one on the showroom floor to other Cadillac models of their equivalent year. Whe my wife chose a Catera over a 2000 V-6 Olds Aurora (which had just been introduced) and a 2000 Lincoln LS V-6 it was only partially because of the great lease deal (business car) Cadillac was offering, but also because the Catera drove better and had better fit and finish. She had the car car for three years with no real problems with it and turn it in at the end of the lease. The Lincoln LS with the V-8 got great automotive press, but also cost $10,000. more (you could by a good BMW 5 series for that kind of money) and the paint and fit and finish were not as good as the Catera. But I agree it should have never beeen marketed as a Cadillac!

Bro-Ham
10-08-10, 03:50 PM
Orr, Cadillac Catera was a European Opel. Pontiac GTO and Pontiac G8 were both Australian Holden. Both GM cars, but I don't think either of them are remotely related.

Stingroo
10-08-10, 03:55 PM
Orr, Cadillac Catera was a European Opel. Pontiac GTO and Pontiac G8 were both Australian Holden. Both GM cars, but I don't think either of them are remotely related.

What he said. Have you been dipping into Dave's alcohol stash again? :suspect:

orconn
10-08-10, 04:03 PM
What he said. Have you been dipping into Dave's alcohol stash again? :suspect:

Oh, mais non, mon petit! The Australian sourced Pontiac GTO was built on the chassis of the Holden Monaro .... which was sourced from the same Opel chassis as was the Catera. The GTO and the Catera have many, many (suspension etc.) parts that are used in both cars.

The Cadillac redo of the Opel chassis was similar to the redo by Holden for their line of Opel chassis based cars including the Monaro coupe from which the Pontiac GTO was derived. I know we all love to hate the Catera, but it was really derived from a very creditable rear wheel drive chassis that was used in many great handling cars and was a lot better car thanwe give it credit..

drewsdeville
10-08-10, 04:08 PM
:yeah:

johnny kannapo
10-08-10, 04:23 PM
To be sold in America

http://www.complaints-india.com/breaking-news-20003.php

Playdrv4me
10-08-10, 04:24 PM
Oh, mais non, mon petit! The Australian sourced Pontiac GTO was built on the chassis of the Holden Monaro .... which was sourced from the same Opel chassis as was the Catera. The GTO and the Catera have many, many (suspension etc.) parts that are used in both cars.

The Cadillac redo of the Opel chassis was similar to the redo by Holden for their line of Opel chassis based cars including the Monaro coupe from which the Pontiac GTO was derived. I know we all love to hate the Catera, but it was really derived from a very creditable rear wheel drive chassis that was used in many great handling cars and was a lot better car thanwe give it credit..

Orconn hit the nail on the head.

To say the CTS is evidence of the Catera's failure is also quite the stretcharoo. The Catera is universally credited for whetting the appetites of Americans for a genuinely smaller, fun to drive proper Cadillac. Even the engine in the Catera went on to be the basis for the first engine used in the CTS. I think Americans basically said "OK, we can live with the idea of a small, fun to drive Cadillac... but please give us one that's a GENUINE Caddy." Were it not for the Catera, the business case for the CTS would probably have been much harder to justify. And FWIW, the parts are available for the Catera, they just have to come from overseas, like any other import vehicle.

Jesda
10-08-10, 04:41 PM
Catera is universally credited for whetting the appetites of Americans for a genuinely smaller, fun to drive proper Cadillac.

It didnt. Americans were already open to the idea of a small executive sporty sedan with European handling characteristics, so they laughed at the Catera and bought BMWs -- a shit-ton of them. BMW spent the entire decade selling E30s, E36s, and E46s without difficulty and at a premium price. Its silly to believe that Americans needed preparation for that category of car -- they were already buying them. GM was playing a sad game of catchup.

Cadillac is about bravado tamed by elegance, and the Catera, even if it was at its core a competent car, was simply unsuitable for the brand. It wouldn't be suitable as a BMW either.

drewsdeville
10-08-10, 04:43 PM
It didnt. Americans were already open to the idea of a small executive sporty sedan with European handling characteristics, so they laughed at the Catera and bought BMWs -- a shit-ton of them. BMW spent the entire decade selling E30s, E36s, and E46s without difficulty and at a premium price. Its silly to believe that Americans needed preparation for that category of car -- they were already buying them. GM was playing a sad game of catchup.

Cadillac is about bravado tamed by elegance, and the Catera, even if it was at its core a competent car, was simply unsuitable for the brand. It wouldn't be suitable as a BMW either.

The key word was whetted, no one ever claimed that it swayed the public one way or the other.

Jesda
10-08-10, 05:02 PM
The key word was whetted, no one ever claimed that it swayed the public one way or the other.

It didn't whet a damn thing. It was an embarrassment for the division that followed it through the beginning of the 21st century. You didn't have a flock of satisfied Catera owners lining up to buy the CTS. If anything, the first few years of shoddy Cateras spoiled the brand for new, younger customers.

What happened with the CTS was the opposite -- loyalists to German brands began to take an interest in Cadillac. It was a 5-series level of comfort and performance for 3-series money.

"Good enough" (which the Catera was) was no longer good enough when GM had less than a third of US market share.

billc83
10-08-10, 05:50 PM
The key word was whetted, no one ever claimed that it swayed the public one way or the other.

I've never known any woman to get whet over a Catera...

orconn
10-08-10, 07:10 PM
I've never known any woman to get whet over a Catera...

But then I've never known a woman to get wet over a BMW either ...... a Jaguar maybe, but a Bimmer no!

hueterm
10-08-10, 07:51 PM
3 series convertible....hello... :-)

Just drive through the parking lot of any upscale mall on a Saturday afternoon...

orconn
10-08-10, 08:01 PM
^^^ Since when is a 3 series, convertible or not, been a sex symbal? Status symbol sure, "every one at my high school has one, Daddy" to be sure .... but, "wow, what a great looking car" I seiously doubt it, certainly not with the women young or old that I know. They are heavily into Porsches and Corvettes .... some of them can afford them!

Stingroo
10-08-10, 08:07 PM
Orconn, I can't think of any girls my age who are in to Corvettes at all. Just us guys. And the ones who are into Porsche's can't pronounce it anyway. :lol:

Seriously though, BMW seems to have that niche these days.

Koooop
10-08-10, 08:45 PM
When I was 18 my Corvette really didn't get much attention from the empty headed young girls, but when I showed up in a Baur 323i it was a different story. BMW's and Porsche Cab's get pu**y but so did my 79 triple black Eldo. You just never know what'll reel 'em in.









The underlying problem with the Catera was best shown by the fact no one would write an extended warranty on the car because it was such a POS.

gary88
10-08-10, 09:15 PM
BMW - Brings Me Women :thumbsup:

orconn
10-08-10, 11:20 PM
BMW - Brings Me Women :thumbsup:

How many other brands have you tried for comparison?

Jesda
10-08-10, 11:23 PM
3-series verts, when theyre new and current, do attract women. I dont know if it gets a male driver any female attention -- I can say only that women themselves want to own and drive them. M3/335 is a different story.

Cadillac needs to hurry up and replace the BLS with something small and sporty that isnt a rebodied Saab. I think I can confidently say that the Catera at least outhandles the BLS.

orconn
10-08-10, 11:47 PM
I agree young high school girls really like for daddy to buy a BMW convertible for themto drive .... kind of a halo from the old 90210 days status thing. It's what the car cost and represents not the car itself when it comes to young girls.

Around here, as has been discussed previously on the Forums (and confirm by Thad from his Chevy dealership experience), most of the newer Corvettes seem to being driven by older middle aged women. Younger middle aged ladies seem to have a preference for Porsches, some guys driving them but more women. Either the women married well or have an income of their own that can afford these cars. I agree you do see many BMW convertibles in high school parking lots, I guess dadies are more generous with their doughters than with their sons!

The guys I see driving Corvettes are driving twenty tear old models in much need of renovation. Kind of like the guys stepped up from the old Camaros they were driving last year. I can't remember when I last saw a guy driving a late model BMW convertible.

Jesda
10-09-10, 12:37 AM
I can't remember when I last saw a guy driving a late model BMW convertible.

Quite often. A luxury convertible's sellability is based in part on how well it carries golf bags.

Stingroo
10-09-10, 08:42 AM
What Drew describes about standalone Cadillac dealerships is what I thought was supposed to be happening. Maybe not all at once, but gradually.

The only Cadillac dealership I knew much about was one my dad worked at up in Massachusetts, it was Cadillac/Hummer/Saab. Wonder what happened to them, it's been a few years since I've been up there (six, actually, lol)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-09-10, 08:54 AM
???

In comparable model years, a STS does not and cannot compete with the Catera. They aren't even the same genre. Have you driven one? Completely different animals. Each have their own set of good qualities and attributes. For example, when pushed to the limits, the Catera makes my grandparents 2000 STS feel like a complete turd from behind the wheel.

The Catera has numerous redeeming qualities over the same model year STS.

Also, diagnosing a Catera is no different than any other car. It uses an engine, transmission, lower control arms w/ struts and rack and pinion steering like most other cars from the era. There's nothing really out of the ordinary about it, besides the RWD whcih wasn't common. I've diagnosed them without much trouble.

I've never driven a Catera, never had any desire too. As a matter of fact, it's the only Cadillac from it's era in which I haven't had a desire to try it out. I rode in my buddy's dad's though a few years back. Anyways, I'm sure they handle fine, being the smallest Cadillac and being RWD and all, but they don't weigh much less than any other "sporty" Cadillac (3700 lbs v. 3850 for the Eldorados and 3950 for the Sevilles), their 3.0L twin cam 24V V-6 doesn't make nearly the amount of power that the Northstar does, especially considering they're only a 200 lb weight difference. I will give the Catera this though, they had a nicer interior than the early CTS's.

Sure the car it's self uses a lot of "normally" designed parts in it's basic architecture, but they're all "Catera exclusive" and German designed and built, which means they're not as readily available as the same part for a different Cadillac, and much more expensive. I remember whenever we got a Catera in for service or repair work at the Chevrolet dealer I used to work at, the techs used to bitch especially loud because they weren't easy or simple to work with like any of the other Cadillacs. The Catera really soured the whole "German built and designed, but sold in America" status of an increasing number of cars made by GM today....the Regal comes to mind. When the first Regal came in at the big GMC/Buick dealer I call on for work, I was talking to the lead tech about it, and he saw the "FINAL POINT OF ASSEMBLY: DUSSELDORF, GERMANY" line on the window sticker and said "oh ****, it's gonna be like that Catera nightmare again!"

Although I must admit, I am curious to hear what you find to be the redeeming qualities over a similar year STS. No CVRSS or Magnaride, no 300hp V8 (or V6 of comparable power given the weight difference), no StabiliTrak, no adaptive seating, leather seats and bose stereo were both optional in the Catera, and when you did get the leather, it wasn't the premium Nuance leather as used in other Cadillacs, but something else.

So, after further analysis, the Catera's biggest advantage over the Sevilles, DeVilles and Eldorados is the slightly smaller size, tighter handling and RWD format. Although, as you know being a fellow snowbelt resident, RWD isn't necessarily an advantage at all when you're dealing with snow five months out of the year, especially when the car isn't fairly large and has a fairly powerful V-6 under it's hood.

drewsdeville
10-09-10, 09:24 AM
Although I must admit, I am curious to hear what you find to be the redeeming qualities over a similar year STS.

They are mostly something you need to experience from behind the wheel, which is why I asked.

The STS's limits are fairly easy to reach. When you do reach them, they aren't nearly as thrilling as the Catera's, even if it doesn't accelerate as well. Horsepower doesn't guarantee you anything. A long list of features like magnaride, stabilitrak and interior options aren't enough to make up for the difference in the driving experience offered from behind the wheel. I guess it depends on what sways you more though.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-09-10, 09:31 AM
Understandable. But, I'm sure that the CTS outdoes the Catera.

97EldoCoupe
10-09-10, 09:41 AM
I agree. The Eldorado is a small car. Any smaller then I begin to wonder "shouldn't I have more metal between myself and that 18 wheeler ahead of me at these speeds?"

My truck weighs in at 5900 lbs. I love the thing - mileage isn't too too bad, but I still need to get a Caddy back up and running again. With the move I haven't been able to fix my trans in the '98 or steering rack. My 97 Eldo is undergoing some interior mods and the one 97 ETC is in serious need of HG's. I just can't take the time off to work on any of my own cars right now.

I have a chance to buy a 97 Olds LSS again, cheap. I always loved those cars. 3800 engines are really fuel efficient and reasonably quick too - fun cars!

A friend's Pontiac G5 is resonably roomy and cheap on fuel. Fast. But it's still a compact car and not quite what I'd be looking for. I was amazed how agile it is though.

Stingroo
10-09-10, 09:42 AM
I want an LSS. They're cool. Would make a good DD.

V-Eight
10-09-10, 12:18 PM
Ride schmide. Who buys a car like that for the comfort?

And Orconn, I think they've gotten themselves into the varnish again.

No, I expected it to be rough, but this was AWFUL.


Generally this is my reaction when I see an small car::wtf: but there are a few ones that I do not mind driving them, for example:
http://www.zcars.com.au/images/mitsubishi-lancer-sportback-ralliart1.jpg


Hideous. WRX > Evo.

Agreed, Mistubishi = garbage

Stingroo
10-09-10, 12:46 PM
I personally haven't been in one of the older ones, so I can't comment. However, a friend of mine owned an '03 WRX in high school, and that car was AMAZING. Fast as all get out too. And it had a carbon fiber hood and trunk lid too thanks to an insurance claim (plus a bit of his cash). They were stock in appearance, just made out of CF. I think the car weighed in at ~2500 pounds after all of his mods and such.

EChas3
10-09-10, 02:01 PM
I like my Triumph TR6; I'd better go work on it...

Bro-Ham
10-09-10, 02:04 PM
Oh, mais non, mon petit! The Australian sourced Pontiac GTO was built on the chassis of the Holden Monaro .... which was sourced from the same Opel chassis as was the Catera. The GTO and the Catera have many, many (suspension etc.) parts that are used in both cars.

The Cadillac redo of the Opel chassis was similar to the redo by Holden for their line of Opel chassis based cars including the Monaro coupe from which the Pontiac GTO was derived. I know we all love to hate the Catera, but it was really derived from a very creditable rear wheel drive chassis that was used in many great handling cars and was a lot better car thanwe give it credit..

Oh my, that explains why a friend of mine had to have GM buy back his GTO...that damn Catera duck was zagging in his car too! :)

Jesda
10-09-10, 02:38 PM
The Caddy that zigs itself into a ditch after the tensioner fails and the oil and coolant mix into a nice milky substance.

http://www.salon.com/aug97/columnists/illhumor970821.html

Playdrv4me
10-09-10, 02:49 PM
The Caddy that zigs itself into a ditch after the tensioner fails and the oil and coolant mix into a nice milky substance.

http://www.salon.com/aug97/columnists/illhumor970821.html

Congratulations on that superb detective work, gumshoe! You found an article from the car's debut year which is universally recognized as the worst of all Cateras. Welcome to the internet.

drewsdeville
10-09-10, 02:58 PM
Congratulations on that superb detective work, gumshoe! You found an article from the car's debut year which is universally recognized as the worst of all Cateras. Welcome to the internet.
:histeric:

Recalls on the introductory year of a new model...not the first time that's ever happened.

Jesda
10-09-10, 03:27 PM
Congratulations on that superb detective work, gumshoe! You found an article from the car's debut year which is universally recognized as the worst of all Cateras. Welcome to the internet.

I like how you pretend to be literate. The truth is, you ask the dog to type all of your posts.

The article is about the horrible marketing campaign at the Catera's launch.

Bro-Ham
10-09-10, 03:31 PM
I like how you pretend to be literate. The truth is, you ask the dog to type all of your posts.

The article is about the horrible marketing campaign at the Catera's launch.

Jesda, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :) All part of the fun in our online community, isn't it?! :)

Jesda
10-09-10, 03:32 PM
:histeric:

Recalls on the introductory year of a new model...not the first time that's ever happened.

Especially for Old GM.

"BRAND NEW AWESOME CAR, BUY IT!"

'no wait, just kidding, we fixed some things, NOW ITS AWESOME, buy it NOW!'

"Sorry General, we bought something else."


Catastrophic engine failure before 100k that remains unresolved until late 99 is not a "recall" issue. Its an engineering blunder. Its among the many reasons why the Catera is a blemish on Cadillac's reputation.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/846/dishonorable-mention-the-10-most-embarrassing-award-winners-in-automotive-history/


By the mid ’90s, Cadillac was sick of being kicked around by European competitors like the BMW 3- and 5-series and Mercedes C- and E-classes. No matter how hard Caddy tried, it always seemed that the Germans were cooler. So Cadillac looked at GM’s international portfolio of products, came across the rear-drive Opel Omega MV6 that was then being built in Germany (perfect!), and decided that, with a little bit of redecoration and a name change to Catera, it would make a great Cadillac.


Despite an ad campaign that featured both Cindy Crawford and animated versions of the ducks found on the Cadillac crest, there was just no way to hide that the Catera was a snoozer. The styling was generic and gelatinous, the interior bland, the chassis response lackadaisical, and the 3.0-liter V-6’s 200 hp had to strain against a nearly 3900-pound curb weight. Ads for the Catera said it was the “Caddy that zigs,” but what’s the point of zigging without zagging? About the only thing truly interesting about the Catera was its calamitous reliability record.


You kids are delusional. :)

drewsdeville
10-09-10, 03:45 PM
Especially for Old GM.

"BRAND NEW AWESOME CAR, BUY IT!"

'no wait, just kidding, we fixed some things, NOW ITS AWESOME, buy it NOW!'

"Sorry General, we bought something else."


Catastrophic engine failure before 100k that remains unresolved until late 99 is not a "recall" issue. Its an engineering blunder. Its among the many reasons why the Catera is a blemish on Cadillac's reputation.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/846/dishonorable-mention-the-10-most-embarrassing-award-winners-in-automotive-history/




You kids are delusional. :)

Not exactly, we just know what we like in a car, regardless of what teh interwebz says... Your poor review and quick sale at a $1k+ loss on the $5k Volvo indicates that you might not understand this just yet, and that's fine. <- no offense intended here.

That said, if you can afford to lose so much money cycling through cars you really don't care for, a fun and frisky Catera that might surprise you could be a good value for you, even if you had to replace and engine every now and then due to failed tensioners. Maybe when you bail on the STS in a few weeks you can check them out and type up a few posts in your own words rather than random links from the net and hearsay.

You can link, cut, copy, paste all the articles about the Catera you want. I still think the Catera is a thrilling car to drive, which is a valid contribution to a thread about showing love for small cars. If I needed a car and ran across the right deal, I wouldn't let a few internet articles scare me from enjoying myself. I wouldn't let the car kick my ass, sounds like you might though. Too bad.

ryannel2003
10-09-10, 04:48 PM
I was looking at Catera's right before I purchased the STS a few years ago. The only one I drove was a low mile, '00 Catera Sport and I was pleasantly surprised by how well it handled and the taut ride. To be honest, my biggest problem with the car was the very un-Cadillac like styling it offered. Had it had a little bit more '90's Cadillac style, I would have purchased one because it was a very well priced sedan. At the same time, all the technicians at my dealership said stay far, far away from the Catera's in general (and from Northstar powered Cadillac's as well). The far worst years were the '97-'99, and I saw plenty of people having them towed in for major problems and most people didn't have the money to pay for the repairs so the cars just sat the dealership. While people would gladly pay $4k for a headgakset repair, people wouldn't spend that kind of money on a Catera.

orconn
10-09-10, 05:55 PM
I agree the styling of the Catera was rather generic. I remember how easily the one we had (2000) could be confused with a Japanese offering. But in retrospect it really was only slightly less ho-hum than the BMW 5 series of that time. The original Catera with its' silly tailights and dated grill treatment was really sad. But the retuning of the Catera's in 2000 fixed those original styling problems, along with other defects. But it was too late for the Catera to recover from the pitiful advertising campaign aand the bad press of its' first years. Would I recommend a Catera to a young person who was low on money but high on adventure .... cirtainly not, a quick visit to the Catera section of this forum should dissuade any but the most adventuresome to stay away. Would I recommend that a young guy or girl buy a ten year old BMW or Mercedes as a cheap transportation car for college, hell no, and that goes for an old Seville as well, or any Cadillac for that matter. Even decently engineered (entry level luxury) cars should be a delayed pleasure till you can either fix them yourself or can afford to get the work done. If you have the money to fix these cars should they break, you've got the money to lease a decent transportation car for your "starting out years."

But all this having been taken into account, the Catera was a decent entry into the compact entry level lury car field. But it never should have been marketed as a Cadillac. Ford was much much successful with their Mondeo derived Jaguar and Lincoln entries in this field, even the presses unjustified high praise for these cars fell far short of reality.

I agree with Ian's comments on the validity of automotive press recommendations (shilling) for new cars. the last time I paid attention and bought one of their "best picks" was the 1984 Audi 5000S Avant .... without a doubt the worst car I have ever owned .... thankyou "Road & Track"

77CDV
10-09-10, 09:53 PM
May I apologise right now for ever digging up the Cimmaron and starting this whole Catera debate?

Stingroo
10-09-10, 10:06 PM
What has been said cannot be unsaid (at least, as long as 24 hours have passed :lol:)

Jesda
10-09-10, 10:42 PM
Not exactly, we just know what we like in a car, regardless of what teh interwebz says... Your poor review and quick sale at a $1k+ loss on the $5k Volvo indicates that you might not understand this just yet, and that's fine. <- no offense intended here.

The Catera is a sad offering in a sea of more competent, cheaper to maintain, and far more attractive BMWs. Its a rolling insult to the wreath and crest. I'd own one if a mint condition one stumbled along for $1000.

What in the world does the Volvo have to do with anything? Talk about a non-sequitur. I go through cars left and right because I can afford the hobby, because I intend to enjoy a little bit of everything. I chalk up the loss to "oh well, I had fun, whats next?" If I didn't have knee problems I'd still have the car.


The issue isn't indecision. The issue is my inability to own 30 cars at one time, so I'm stuck with owning just two or three at once. If I had the means, I'd be Jay Leno.

Go complain about $14 room service. :P



One of these days, if I can stomach the repairs, I'd like to try an Alfa.


The Catera was a mechanical and electrical pile of problems. The difference between a Northstar Cadillac and a Catera is that paying the penalty to keep a Seville running means you have something beautiful, spacious, and timeless that's thoroughly satisfying.

Paying the penalty to own a Catera is like buying jewelry for a $5 hooker.


It was a huge mistake and a massive product positioning and marketing blunder. GM's apprehension over offering a 3-sized car here is a result of the Catera's massive failure to meet customer expectations. GM needs to study the market and get it right.

Jesda
10-09-10, 10:47 PM
Ford was much much successful with their Mondeo derived Jaguar and Lincoln entries in this field

It seems the Europeans were more open to a baby Jag than us Americans. They even got the wagon version. Its unfortunate that X-type had so many annoying quality control issues, because the Mondeo architecture is supposedly very good.

orconn
10-09-10, 11:17 PM
It seems the Europeans were more open to a baby Jag than us Americans. They even got the wagon version. Its unfortunate that X-type had so many annoying quality control issues, because the Mondeo architecture is supposedly very good.

The X-type Jag wagon was offered in the U.S. Lest we also forget, the Jaguar S-type shared its' chassis with down market Lincoln LS also its' V-8.

Jesda
10-09-10, 11:19 PM
Really! I'm intrigued and interested.

Might be fun to own for a few winter months. :)

gdwriter
10-10-10, 12:50 AM
The difference between a Northstar Cadillac and a Catera is that paying the penalty to keep a Seville running means you have something beautiful, spacious, and timeless that's thoroughly satisfying.

Paying the penalty to own a Catera is like buying jewelry for a $5 hooker.:histeric::histeric::histeric::histeric::hi steric:

Koooop
10-10-10, 01:55 AM
The Catera is a sad offering in a sea of more competent, cheaper to maintain, and far more attractive BMWs. Its a rolling insult to the wreath and crest. I'd own one if a mint condition one stumbled along for $1000.

You'd lose your ass if you bought one for a Grand. The Catera was a floating Turd in a sea of more competent cars.

I can't believe you guys are actually defending the reliability of the Catera. The car sucked! LOL

I had this same discussion with my cousin about the Catera, he bought it anyway. It kicked him right in the peas.

drewsdeville
10-10-10, 02:01 AM
Go complain about $14 room service. :P


Don't need to; I don't buy what I don't want and therefore won't pay for room service, whether it's $2 or $14. I'll leave that to someone else who values it. ;)



The difference between a Northstar Cadillac and a Catera is that paying the penalty to keep a Seville running means you have something beautiful, spacious, and timeless that's thoroughly satisfying.


Such a poor, poor generalization. Perhaps your genuine opinion, but far from any real truth. Beautiful? Timeless? Thoroughly satisfying? I consider my relatives 40k mile 2001 to be far from that description. Pretty forward statement from somebody who bases half of their opinion on internet links rather than the real experience. If you want to cycle cars, you would probably benefit from trying out the Catera for a few weeks, even if you know you'll hate it. At least you'd have some credibility comparing it to other vehicles then and you'd have gained that experience that you're willing to pay thousands for.

Your other vehicle is a Saab, so at least you'd look better in the Catera, despite it's poor Cadillac resemblance.

Playdrv4me
10-10-10, 03:27 AM
Really! I'm intrigued and interested.

Might be fun to own for a few winter months. :)

I've mentioned the U.S. import X Type Estate to you like 432 times...

I know I know... you probably weren't listening.

Jesda
10-10-10, 03:34 AM
I know I know... you probably weren't listening.

Signal to noise. All anyone hears is "Lexus Lexus James Blunt Olive Garden"

billc83
10-10-10, 07:29 AM
OK, let's get back on topic before the thread gets moved to the Catera section...

I never did come around to the Henry J, but I must be the minority. Seems to be a lot of folks like them:

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1950-1959/1951-Kaiser-Henry-J.jpg

orconn
10-10-10, 10:21 AM
OK, let's get back on topic before the thread gets moved to the Catera section...

I never did come around to the Henry J, but I must be the minority. Seems to be a lot of folks like them:

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1950-1959/1951-Kaiser-Henry-J.jpg

Yup, right up there with the Hudson Jet!

Jesda
10-10-10, 02:34 PM
Your other vehicle is a Saab, so at least you'd look better in the Catera, despite it's poor Cadillac resemblance.



Feel free to go on singing the praises of the Catera. Enjoy whatever you want to enjoy. You don't have to hate the car, but you ought to acknowledge its failures.


As for outward appearances, thats the Catera's biggest flaw -- its NOT a Cadillac. It should NEVER have been a Cadillac. A Buick, an Olds, a Chevy, anything but a Cadillac. It was passable as an Opel, a Holden, a Vauxhall.

The Saab badge is inherently unpretentious, associated with nerdy off-beat underdog cars driven by equally strange owners. Satisfaction is about expectations, and slapping a wreath and crest on a Catera results in underwhelming disappointment. Few people drive Saabs to impress others.


Saab was saved by legions of international loyalists (and a ton of money from some questionable sources). The Cadillac Catera is a mistake that GM wants to forget.



Now, I realize you're routinely in the lounge to post a gentle prick and prod here and there, to annoy me, Chad, or Gary in quiet retaliation for the one-week ban from earlier this summer. I'm sorry that you still have contentious feelings, but you did make it explicitly clear at the time that you were only here to inflame and annoy. You're probably having a good chuckle. I understand that this is why you've twice mentioned cars I have personally owned that are otherwise unrelated to the topic -- to get under my skin. Please, don't let that bitterness cloud your view of reality:
The Catera has a few noteworthy positives, but it was a disaster for GM.


Calm down, friend.

hueterm
10-10-10, 02:46 PM
...to annoy me, Chad, or Gary...


Please add me to this list.

gdwriter
10-10-10, 06:28 PM
If Drew wants to hate his relatives' '01 Seville, he has every right in the world to. But Drew enjoys making "poor, poor generalizations" about these cars, I think in part because I enjoy mine so much (30,000+ trouble-free miles BTW on a 10-year-old car that still looks like new) and because both Jesda and I find them to be beautiful, timeless and thoroughly satisfying. Whatever, dude.

In months of reading Drew's Lounge posts, I've rarely come across someone so consistently negative about virtually everything. And this insight is coming from a natural pessimist. Drew makes me seem as perky as Julie Andrews in The Sound of Music by comparison. His life, his choice.

drewsdeville
10-10-10, 08:03 PM
That is correct. I am entitled to my opinion, as well as posting it here on a public forum like the internet, just like you.

Get over it.

You like your car, that's great. My relatives like theirs as well. I don't think of you or them any differently for it. I don't care for them...which is why I don't drive one!

It's jsut words, man. It's just the internet. Don't let it get so personal.

For the record, no hard feelings with the ban earlier this year. It was no problem as, apparently, I got banned the day I left for a 6 day vacation to Boston, MA. I never knew until the evening before the ban was lifted :) No worries.

Jesda
10-10-10, 09:10 PM
If mutual respect isn't something that you can cope with, you can leave or be removed.

Final warning.

Jesda
10-10-10, 09:24 PM
Back on topic...

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/peel-p50-3.jpg
I need to try the Peel P50.

Stingroo
10-10-10, 09:45 PM
DO IT!

Can you even get one of those here in the US? lolololol

orconn
10-10-10, 11:11 PM
Looks like something Newton would drive. He would be a real hit with all the bitches!

Stingroo
10-10-10, 11:12 PM
He would be a real hit with all the bitches!

:histeric: I know what you meant by it, obviously, but seeing you type that sentence made me crack up.

Koooop
10-10-10, 11:59 PM
Looks like something Newton would drive. He would be a real hit with all the bitches!

You mean Drew?

(Someone had to say it!)

orconn
10-11-10, 12:47 PM
Back on topic...

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/peel-p50-3.jpg
I need to try the Peel P50.

"Looks like something Newton would drive. He would be a real hit with all the bitches."

My statement was directed soley at Newton and his benefactor.

Jesda
10-11-10, 12:55 PM
Looks like something Newton would drive. He would be a real hit with all the bitches!

:histeric:

ben.gators
10-11-10, 05:37 PM
The difference between a Northstar Cadillac and a Catera is that paying the penalty to keep a Seville running means you have something beautiful, spacious, and timeless that's thoroughly satisfying.

Paying the penalty to own a Catera is like buying jewelry for a $5 hooker.


It was a huge mistake and a massive product positioning and marketing blunder. GM's apprehension over offering a 3-sized car here is a result of the Catera's massive failure to meet customer expectations. GM needs to study the market and get it right.
:histeric:

So true.... Seville is an expensive car to keep, but after paying the big repair bills you still can feel relieved if you look at the car.... but what about a Catera!? I doubt it...

Catera could be a good car for Chevy (with a reduced price tag).... not for Cadillac!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-11-10, 06:57 PM
The Catera would have been a sweet car for Chevy or Pontiac, especially Pontiac. It would have been like a euro-inspired Bonneville or Grand Prix. Kinda like the G8 about 8 years before it's time.

ben.gators
10-11-10, 07:07 PM
Kinda like the G8 about 8 years before it's time.

I still feel bad for G8! Does any other make (Chevy, Buick,...) takeover this car or it is just discontinued?!

hueterm
10-11-10, 07:12 PM
There will be a police interceptor chevy version, apparently...but no civilian model. Hope and change from gov't motors...

orconn
10-11-10, 07:18 PM
I imagine the Pontiac G8 will suffer the same fate as the Catera. An orphan with expensive hard to get parts abandoned by GM to founder, with only a core of much criticised fanciers left to patch the old misfits up!

ben.gators
10-11-10, 07:29 PM
I really like the way G8 looks, the size of the car is almost comparable with CTS, and frankly speaking I would choose G8 over CTS without any hesitation (if it was not discontinued and obviously if I had such a generous offer! :D)....

Pontiac did some good jobs during its last moments of life, e.g. G8, G6,..., but it was too late. Pontiac Sank and as a result such a nice car was trashed!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-11-10, 07:43 PM
I imagine the Pontiac G8 will suffer the same fate as the Catera. An orphan with expensive hard to get parts abandoned by GM to founder, with only a core of much criticised fanciers left to patch the old misfits up!

Yeah, except the G8 actually was a well designed, handsome car of a high quality, that filled a needed void in the American marketplace better than it's competitors and was and still is highly desirable among enthusiasts. Pontiac really went out with a bang on that one.

gary88
10-11-10, 07:50 PM
I see tons of G8s here. Pontiac had a real home run on their hands with that. Horrible timing though.

ga_etc
10-11-10, 09:16 PM
I would still love to have a G8. It would be a tough call between a G8 and a CTS.

Playdrv4me
10-11-10, 09:45 PM
The G8 will fare much better over time IMO than the Catera ever could have hoped for. Primarily because the G8 had and has a cult-like following of enthusiasts. In addition to that, its engine and transmission in all variants are simply off the shelf GM parts. The GXP is damn near impossible to find and they already command a premium if you do find one.

ga_etc
10-11-10, 10:04 PM
:yeah:

Jesda
10-11-10, 10:35 PM
The Caprice thats going to be sold to police fleets will keep the G8 architecture alive in the US.

Koooop
10-11-10, 11:58 PM
The G8 will fare much better over time IMO than the Catera ever could have hoped for. Primarily because the G8 had and has a cult-like following of enthusiasts. In addition to that, its engine and transmission in all variants are simply off the shelf GM parts. The GXP is damn near impossible to find and they already command a premium if you do find one.

The G8 will fare better than the Catera primarily because it doesn't suck balls and the G8 is a really cool car.

ben.gators
10-12-10, 12:29 AM
I can see G8s around, yesterday evening I saw one in the carwash, it was a very beautiful all black G8. The interesting thing is although G8 is discontinued (at least for civilians) and Pontiac is gone, around here G8s have a very high price tag!!!!! .... Even more expensive than a CTS with the same miles and age..... Notice a new CTS was expensive than a new (GT or GXP) G8.

Pontiac had difficulties in selling remaining brand new G8s, but it seems that in used car market there is a different story for these beautiful cars!

Koooop
10-12-10, 12:38 AM
The used car market is out of whack right now, everything is expensive. Not to many cars were sold in 08-09, the few that were sold were stripped or put in service as rentals. It's slim pickin's out there in the used car market, what is there is thrashed or stripped.