: 1989 Brougham Code 23 and 45



turk
09-30-10, 08:52 PM
Hope you all can help with this. I have had a slight hesitation driving until about a week ago. The hesitation seemed to appear after the car warmed up and happened when the throttle was applied. A week ago, the CE then came on, and the hesitation went away, as did my mileage. It is significantly lower than before. Pulled the 23 (mixture control solenoid circuit) and 45 (O2 sensor, rich exhaust) codes. Any thoughts on a plan to attack this problem? I did have rebuilt heads installed and they were doing fine until this issue, maybe 1000 miles on the heads. 240k on the old caddy.....

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated!

MudAnt
09-30-10, 09:13 PM
I can't say I know exactly what's wrong, but it sound like something in the carburetor needs to be replaced. Unfortunately, if you take your carb apart to replace it, it won't work properly when you put it back together, because it's 21 years old (unless you had it re-built or replaced fairly recently).

I've got a "TPS out of range" code on mine, indicating the TPS (inside the carb) needs to be replaced. It's essentially a $500 repair because I need a re-built carb to fix it, because my original one can't be serviced without it being re-built.

Though the mixture control solenoid circuit might be under the dash for all I know, in which case all of this is irrelevant to you.

outsider
09-30-10, 11:17 PM
^yeah, I replaced my TPS in my 87 and the thing would not run proper after that...slapped a rebuilt carb on it and was good to go. $500 is way over-estimated though. just buy a rebuilt one ($200 max) and put it on, it's only a few bolts :)

turk
09-30-10, 11:19 PM
Not at all. The solenoid is on top of the carb per the service manual... I had it rebuilt about 10 yrs ago... Not good, I'm thinking.

I don't suppose there is any hope it's the O2 sensor?

csbuckn
09-30-10, 11:29 PM
I was thinking the same thing, just get a rebuilt carb, get it tuned and solve alot of hassle. Plenty people on here have tried doing the TPS sensor only to have to get another carb. I was lucky to find a freshly rebuilt carb at the junkyard after messing with my TPS. Some people have been successful but if your carb looks rough, save the money for a rebuilt. A friend just got a q-jet from a site called "carbs for 200 or less" or something like that.

MudAnt
10-01-10, 01:38 AM
^yeah, I replaced my TPS in my 87 and the thing would not run proper after that...slapped a rebuilt carb on it and was good to go. $500 is way over-estimated though. just buy a rebuilt one ($200 max) and put it on, it's only a few bolts :)

Where did you get one for $200? I found a guy selling them on eBay for $400 and I thought that was a good deal, since they want $650 for them at NAPA.

Edit:

Seems I've answered my own question (unless there's a better source for rebuilt carbs than eBay)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/81-89-GM-E4MC-307-5-0L-Computer-Controlled-Carburetor-/300348739614?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item45ee2e101e

csbuckn
10-01-10, 02:00 AM
Your O2 sensor is running rich because your TPS is causing your engine to flood. Fixing the TPS should fix the O2 sensor code.

outsider
10-01-10, 08:08 AM
MudAnt, that's a good source on Ebay but where I got mine was actually at a site called v8buick.com, I had posted there because they have a quadrajet forum and one of the guys there offered to sell me his spare for pretty cheap so I did it. It wasn't "freshly rebuilt" like he had said, but it was fresh enough to run so I didn't complain! But yeah, buy that one on Ebay!

MudAnt
10-02-10, 12:28 AM
MudAnt, that's a good source on Ebay but where I got mine was actually at a site called v8buick.com, I had posted there because they have a quadrajet forum and one of the guys there offered to sell me his spare for pretty cheap so I did it. It wasn't "freshly rebuilt" like he had said, but it was fresh enough to run so I didn't complain! But yeah, buy that one on Ebay!

Cool, I wonder if I could get it done before it starts snowing..

csbuckn
10-02-10, 03:24 AM
Here ya go. $149 fresh rebuilt, $50 core. Go down to 86-90 Brougham computerized carb w/climate choke. A friend got one from here and its works good. You could even get the electric choke.
https://carburetors-149-or-less.com/catalog.aspx?makeid=3&CarbID=83

MudAnt
10-02-10, 03:59 AM
Thanks for the link. Why might one go with the electric choke over the climatic? From my very brief search online, it seems climatics are better because they are dynamic to the engine temp, instead of just being timed. Is there something I'm missing?

Do they come with gaskets for the manifold and air cleaner (if there is one)?

Also, since you actually select the specific year range and model on that site, does that mean it's already tuned for the Olds 307? Is the E4MC carb always tuned for the 307? I have no experience with carbs at all, and while I could probably install one, I doubt I could tune it properly.

csbuckn
10-02-10, 04:28 AM
I have had less problems keeping a car started on cold starts with electric chokes, most people go electric but I dont know why. If running correctly, both chokes should work good. I dont know if they come with the gasket but the parts store will have it, common part. The carb should be tuned and ready to run out of the box, and this carb is computer controlled so throttle position, air/fuel, and idle are mostly controlled by the computer. As long as your O2 sensor and MAP sensor are working, you shoudnt have to tune.

MudAnt
10-02-10, 04:37 AM
Awesome, thanks for the info. Also sorry for slightly hijacking this thread, Turk.

outsider
10-02-10, 09:30 AM
you do need an intake and air cleaner gasket, not sure if those ones on that site come with them or not but I assume they do because it says they use a "Full rebuild kit" which comes with those gaskets...so why wouldn't they include them?

Anyways, the car should run ok with the carb just the way it is but you may want to do some tweaking and checking. mostly, I'd check the TPS to make sure it's in the right range for the cadillac.


Install is pretty simple, the 4 bolts to put the carb on the intake...hook up all vacuum lines and the throttle and transmission cables and you're in business. the trans cable is "self adjusting" so all you gatta do is push in on the adjuster tab and pull the adjuster all the way to the carb, then push the gas all the way to the floor (with the car off) and that will adjust the cable for you!

turk
10-03-10, 12:20 AM
Awesome, thanks for the info. Also sorry for slightly hijacking this thread, Turk.
No worries! This is great info. Thanks, all.

turk
11-11-10, 08:56 PM
I finally found a solenoid, and it's on it's way. Anyone ever swapped one of these before? I have a couple of carb books, and it doesn't look very complicated, but looks can be deceiving...

Any advice?

RocketFast321
11-12-10, 04:51 AM
If i remember right, you have to take the top of the carb off and it just sits in the center. The accelerator pump and choke arm have to be disconnected. Also take your time so you don't screw up the gasket.

"""On my car""" A little pin connected the accelerator pump arm. And a screw connected the choke arm to the choke flaps.

READ!!
"""Count how many times you turn the set screw in before you back it out.""" You need to put it back in the same place for the car to run right. It's hard to find the q-jet adjustment tools. So when you put it back together you screw it in all the way and back it back how many turns it took to go in all the way..

Make sure you don't drop any screws. Also don't drop the little part that pushes the TPS. It's right under the arm that operates the accelerator pump to the front right.

Start
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4467.jpg

The green plug is the solenoid connector. The solenoid is in the center between the accelerator pump and connector. See how the accelerator pump and choke arms are. You will have to play with the top to get it pass the choke arm.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4475.jpg
The metal thing and plastic cover just pulls out. The set screw is that rod looking thing.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4476.jpg

The black thing behind the accelerator pump is the TPS. Before you take the cover off you will see the part under the arm that pushes the TPS.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4477.jpg

Under the cap
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4478.jpg
The part
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4480.jpg
With the part gone
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/rocketfast321/wagon/DSCF4482.jpg

These things are some what simple to work work on if you have the info and tools. And so is the computer, i would also change the O2. They are very very cheap.

outsider
11-12-10, 09:46 AM
oh yeah and a tip for putting the top of the carb back on...put a putty knife over the plunger on your TPS sensor...I broke the little plunger off of 2 of them before I figured out that tip!

turk
11-16-10, 07:59 PM
Wow, what a great post. Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. Latest report is the car will not start at all. It turns over fine. I wonder if driving it rich fouled the plugs or the O2 sensor? It ran on Friday, I tried it Monday am and no start....

Hopefully I can get this done soon. I hope the springs and screw in your photos are reusable, since all I got was the solenoid...?

RocketFast321
11-17-10, 01:34 PM
Everything is reusable. Make sure you got spark.

turk
02-07-11, 12:06 AM
After some months of work when weather and schedule allowed, the Caddy is running again as of this afternoon. I apparently know more about the Quadrajet than most of the mechanics in my city, as no one was really interested in looking at it. Parts and especially tools, like the gauge for the MCS and the idle air bleed gauge, are not available, at least that I could find. If anyone has a source for these tools and gauges, please let me know.

Anyway, fianlly got the MC solenoid installed, completely rebuilt the carburator, including removing one of the idle tubes. After the hassle of doing this with one tube, which required a bunch of torch usage to get the thing out and reinstalled, a paper clip down the other was all I did with it. It worked.

For the last 6-7 weeks, I have had no spark. I could not figure out why, until I took the distributor apart, replaced the coil, took it apart again, and then noticed a red wire with a white connector clip on the end, loose under the plug wires near the distributor. Remarkably, it fit perfectly on the bat terminal on the coil connector under the coil cover.... Now we have spark, and the old 307 turned over on the first crank. The service manual from Cadillac does not even appear to show this wire. I'm going to continue to look for it in the manual.

I do have a lean exhaust code (44) with a brand new O2 sensor, and a 34 code, so I still have some tuning to do. Thanks to you all for the input on this. If you have not taken apart your quadrajet yet, don't be afraid to do it. There is a ton of info out there and it's not that complicated... Get Cliff Ruggles book for sure.

The 34 code has me a bit stumped, as the MAP sensor is fairly new, so if anyone has an idea on this one, please let me know...

csbuckn
02-07-11, 12:56 AM
Code 34 usually means lack of vacuum to the MAP sensor. To me, its a broad code meaning the engine isnt running right. Could be because of vacuum, timing, carb or blinker fluid...too broad to narrow it down. Its supprising that the service manual doesnt mention anything about the coil wire. But I would say the carb has to be fine tuned to get rid of the lean exhaust.

RocketFast321
02-07-11, 02:16 PM
check for old vacuum lines.

turk
02-10-11, 12:48 AM
The coil wire is in the manual. It requires correct reading and interpretation by the user...

The heads were just rebuilt/replaced last fall, and all vac lines are new since then... I still suspect the MCS or IABV, but we'll see this weekend. It's supposed to stop snowing and get into the 60's by then... It runs very nice, mileage is ok, but idle is a bit rough..

RocketFast321
02-10-11, 05:45 AM
I just found out about this guy, he has some good info on the q-jet.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WhoSaidTyler#p/u
also these other people
http://www.youtube.com/user/beeterolds
http://www.youtube.com/user/alpheus1975

They say the q-jet tool is at advance auto and napa. But i have yet to find an up to date part number.

For the people that don't know, the q-jet is the best if you can get it running right. It has the 1st smaller venturi for normal driving and the secondaries for mad power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRK9n4NQvOA

But an olds 307 is not known for mad power :nono: