: Engine Swaps?



The-Dullahan
09-27-10, 02:43 AM
Not having a washer pump during Lovebug season sucks, and aside from that I've been busy, but look, I'm back.:cookoo:

Anyhow, in preparation for the someday engine swap, I have a few questions.

From what I can tell, the four possible engines I will swap to are the 454, 455, 472 and of course, the 500.

The 454 is EASY as hell to find parts for, or a complete engine.

the 455's seem to be a bit rarer.

I found a great deal on a complete 472 recently, but the ad was old and it had been scrapped. Also not easy to find.

the 500 is also not the simplest thing to find complete, but it is WELL worth it, simply for the sake of having a 500.

Starting with that one, precisely what will I need to swap the engine into my '87 Brougham? Of course, the complete engine, intake to oilpan and automatic transmission, the mounts (What mounts would I need?) theoretically the radiator too. From my understanding, this is a simpler swap on an earlier Brougham, but tragically my '87 is in fact, an '87. What are the other major hurdles? (Aside from fitting the exhaust headers in there, which I hear is a bitch)

Likewise, what about if I were to swap the other engines? the 472 would, in theory, require precisely what the 500 would, but what about the 454 or the 455 (Yes, I know they are more different than a simple 1 cubic inch)

deVille33
09-27-10, 07:16 AM
Which 455 are you contemplating transplanting? GM produced 3 different 455s. The Olds 455 may be the easiest, as Olds engines were used in early 80's Cadillacs. Any swap that incorporates an engine of different configuration than the original will come with it's own distinct problems. Swaps with the Olds 455 and Bigger Cadillacs are outlined in other threads here. Check out the engines section of the technical forums.

chp350
09-27-10, 10:41 AM
I assume that your 87 has the 307 olds engine? if so the 455 olds would be the most simplest. also what tranny do you have? if its the 2004r it has the extra mounting holes to use the chevy 454...

csbuckn
09-27-10, 01:23 PM
For the easiest swap, an olds 455. For low cost maintenance after the swap, an sbc 454. What are you gonna do for a tranny?

sven914
09-27-10, 02:46 PM
I think you forgot a relatively abundant engine, which is still technically a big block...

You can find a 368, cheaply, almost anywhere and slap it in your hearse without much pain. Being that it has the same block and transmission as the 500, you can then (as ca$h allows) removed that engine and rebuild it as a 472 or a 500. Take the engine mounts, final drive, and cooling system out of the donor car.

But if you find a 472 or 500, or decide against the 368, you can harvest the engine mounts and other needed parts from any '80 or '81 RWD or most '80-'84 commercial chassis.

YourMainParadox
09-27-10, 03:41 PM
a blown 472 engine in jax just got scrapped just for the weight in metal... if I had had money I could have had it for the price of scrap which was only like $11 per 100 lbs :(

sven914
09-27-10, 04:59 PM
^That's about $66 built...

Reduce the weight by taking everything that is blown off the block and anything that your engine has, which doesn't need replaced. Once all of the uselessness is removed, you should be able to get it for around $40.

My personal way of buying it would be to generate 600lbs of scrap steel (less if I could find some aluminum or copper) and exchange that for the engine. Go on an urban cleaning spree and you'll probably have a nice pile of green after getting the engine.

Stingroo
09-27-10, 09:21 PM
Man, I need to get into scrap metal collecting... I have the perfect car for it too! Damn. :lol:

The-Dullahan
09-27-10, 11:18 PM
As do I.

Anyhow, as I have certainly previously someplace, I foresee the engine swap going over with the 455 (Yes, the Oldsmobile, I forgot to specify)

A while back, I saw a few, bu they were asking far too much, especially since both engines hadn't been run in at least five years and one wasn't running five years ago when it was pulled, but they each wanted around as much as I could get a running engine for WITH a transmission, elsewhere. Ironically, one was in a Hearse.

Yeah, parts cars would be great, but that is NOT something easy to find, not to mention for my to acquire storage for while I am doing the swap, unless I get everything all at once. A sister of mine back home has actually just come across a series of 455's that are quite tragically, $1,500 miles away and thusly, difficult to haggle down. Anyhow, I'll keep looking and eventually get back to you lot, hopefully sometime soon, rather than five years later...

chp350
09-28-10, 02:09 AM
Dullahan, I will keep my eyes open for a 455 olds for you..I use to run these in my jet drive boats a few years ago, back then they were plentiful..give me about 6 months and I should have one at a scrap price for you..

HAZZARDJOHN
09-28-10, 10:33 AM
500's are hard to find? Wierd. I have never had an issue. I have a spare 500 sitting in my shed complete from carb to oil pan. and I can find $500 caddy's with 500's all over the place here. Granted they are rust buckets, but the motors are usually still solid.

The-Dullahan
09-28-10, 02:39 PM
I think part of it is that down here, they are popular Airboat motors. As stated, I'd be more than happy with a 455, as anything over the 307 would be a vast improvement in an 8,000 pound vehicle.

csbuckn
09-28-10, 03:50 PM
I still find it amazing that the car weights 8000 lbs. A 500 would definitily have the torque you need. But a 455 can handle the job just fine. Can't imagine what its like with the 307 now.

outsider
09-28-10, 04:13 PM
0 to 60 in...10 minutes? ;)

Stingroo
09-28-10, 05:09 PM
It's not that bad, IMO (at least, from my brief exposure to the car). It's not FAST by any means. When Dullahan was following me back to my house from WPB, whenever we would hit even one of those tiny wanna-be Floridian hills, when the wagon's cruise control would pick up speed, I could clearly see the following distance increasing between the two cars (the Dullahearse doesn't have it).

And even if it is slow, it's still buttery smooth and whisper quiet. I would tolerate a 307 Brougham for a weekend cruiser (and a damn good one at that). :)

outsider
09-28-10, 05:22 PM
Yeah, my '87 with the 307 is great for trips to the store or the mall. It's not great for longer trips, like going to work on my '69 in Lisbon (about 40 minutes to an hour away) but it's not unbearable either. Basically...it's a great car but if it had more power I'd love that! eventually I'd like an LT1 or LS1 in it....better fuel economy and more power :)

sven914
09-28-10, 08:59 PM
I still like my Rocket 307, even after 4 years of various commuting. I just have to avoid the really steep grades, because those 140 horses do occasionally feel like a herd of turtles stampeding though molasses.

jayoldschool
09-28-10, 09:54 PM
I think part of it is that down here, they are popular Airboat motors

Yep, same in the 'glades in south FL. The place I went to outside of Ft. Laud had a fleet of airboats. The BIG ones where twenty people sit in them. All powered by mighty 500s.

The-Dullahan
09-29-10, 05:42 AM
The car's best sense of speed comes after 60 mph, whereby I can bury the speedometer past 85 rather quickly. As Sting stated, whenever there was a slight hill, my car would drop back. I could have kept along with him by pressing the pedal down, but then I'd have to slam the brakes once I caught up, or my car would want to roll into his. Eventually my I heard the relay for my brain click on and realized I should pick a lane NEXT to his.Not sure what the top speed is and I'd guess it is more than decent...but it certainly doesn't take off like a rocket anywhere. Maybe downhill, but as The Banana Incident has taught us, one should never take a heavy vehicle speeding down a steep hill. My car's not meant to be fast and I still have no intention of using the new engine for such things after the swap, because as proven earlier this week, when I need to skip around traffic, I just activate the wig-wags and jump behind the nearest emergency vehicle. The swap would most likely IMPROVE the mileage.

Before I go forth for the engine swap, I should try to determine how fast the car is with the 307. My guess is about 100 at it's highest, without removing any electronics or the casket...because driving around without a casket would just be weird. (That's you, Paradox)

Stingroo
09-29-10, 01:53 PM
I would probably be surprised if you could make it much past 100mph. I have a limiter at 108, so I can't compare :( (I really do want to do away with that someday... but not right now).

I'd be interested in your results, though. And hey, Paradox gets a pass, he isn't "driving" anywhere right now. :lol: That's okay though, education first. :)

The-Dullahan
09-29-10, 02:31 PM
Yeah. Funny thing is I found his Craigslist ad for the coffin he wanted and I recently found one SELLING one like he wanted. Alas, the Exhaust Manifold Adventure has to be finished first anyhow. "Much Past 100" yeah, I would not expect to even hit the 108 your car does.

Stingroo
09-29-10, 02:35 PM
Well, maybe if you had a reeeeeeeeeeeeeally long stretch of road? lol

I saw his CL ad too. I was like "Hey, I KNOW THAT HEARSE!" and my friend who was in my dorm was like "Are you okay?" :lol:

YourMainParadox
09-29-10, 08:28 PM
Hey I resemble that remark! :P

If I had the money for a casket I would have one :( I want one badly. My hearse is down for the count till I can get a new head or get these bolts out and with no money that is not gonna happen. :( I also can see I have a burnt exhaust valve or a few from the bolts that have been broken for however many years the last owner drove it like this.

It might have something to do with the open exhaust and not being run in however many years but mine would choke and not go faster than 70ish. I drove it 65mph from orlando to jax. Cruise control does not work either.


My guess is about 100 at it's highest, without removing any electronics or the casket...because driving around without a casket would just be weird. (That's you, Paradox)

The-Dullahan
09-29-10, 11:27 PM
At least you have Cruise Control in spirit, mine doesn't have so much as a switch.

Then next time I am getting rid of a Casket, I shall drive it to Jacksonville for you. Theoretically, it shouldn't have a body in it, but I can make no guarantees.

My car doesn't take THAT long to get up to it's higher speeds. On the way back from my second trip to West Palm, I had the car at at least 90 for quite a ways. Interestingly, I got a speeding ticket well after slowing down and getting off of the interstate and it was for only a nine miles over the limit. The strangest part about it was that I was pulled over by three officers...in one car...

Guess somebody was sitting in the back.

YourMainParadox
09-29-10, 11:33 PM
hey if it includes a skull I am happy :P I would love a human skull in there haha. Mine does not have stock cruise but an aftermarket which I have no clue on :p

Someone want to go dig up a casket for me as long as it is pretty fresh LOL?!

The-Dullahan
09-30-10, 03:11 AM
It wouldn't be the first time I've dug up a dead person - Intentionally or Accidentally - No joke.

Human skulls...Yeah. I've got those. Other creatures too.

The-Dullahan
09-30-10, 03:29 AM
YAY! (I just realized this first photo is a two-for-one deal)
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff29/The-Dullahan/Photo-0023.jpg?t=1285828073

For some reason, this image is enormous, but since this thread is as random as it is, who can tell me what this creature happens to be?
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff29/The-Dullahan/Photo-0025.jpg

YourMainParadox
09-30-10, 08:59 AM
where did you find the human skull?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Stingroo
09-30-10, 09:25 AM
Internets.

The-Dullahan
10-01-10, 01:21 AM
Not internets. It has no medical study number and those are just lame.

Furthermore, interwebz skulls are expensive. Who would buy some guy's skull from some other guy? That's barbaric.

Paradox, you'd like my adoptive Mum. She has a fine appreciation for vintage cars, hearses and has a room that's wall to wall, floor to ceiling with um...well...Human skulls.

And that, ladies and gentlemen...is where Pikeys like me come from.

YourMainParadox
10-01-10, 02:59 AM
get me some human skulls!

Warren_R
10-01-10, 04:16 AM
Is that some sort of antelope skull with added accessory tusks? They just don't make them like that anymore :(

The-Dullahan
10-01-10, 04:55 AM
Nothing is added, all is natural. Close guess though, wrong continent entirely.

Okay. My list of things to do looks like this now.

1. October.
2. Engine Swap Someday.
3. Body Work Someday
and if there's time,
4. Human Skull for Paradox.

Don't worry, if I die before then, I'll leave you mine in my will, big, predatory eye sockets, pointy teeth and all.

YourMainParadox
10-01-10, 11:21 AM
You are going to DO October? .... how is that possible? Damn my human skull should be at the top of the list :P

The-Dullahan
10-01-10, 05:55 PM
October is an important time of year, leading up to the greatest of the Celtic traditional Holidays. I have to cater some parties, get in touch with someone about a haunted house, finish my utterly amazing costume (Video to come), go to Ultimate Horror Weekend, create general mayhem. Yeah, last year I helped Cater a party for a local Martial Arts school (Which is probably the most natural thing I could ever do) and the women working there went to help me clean up and started removing the skulls from the tables, all different kinds, until one of them realized they weren't plastic.

How about a Horse Pelvis? I have a few of those sitting around.

jayoldschool
10-01-10, 09:18 PM
I'm going to do the hell out of October. My birthday, Canadian Thanksgiving, the last few drives in the classics before the snow, cheap tiny chocolate bars and mini bags of chips... what more could one want? :D :D :D

Stingroo
10-01-10, 09:20 PM
"Snow"? What is this you speak of sir?

:D

The-Dullahan
10-02-10, 12:06 AM
Sting, you haven't heard of Snow? It is this beautiful, amazing thing. Where the hell is my Nuclear Winter? I want three feet of snow daily in Brazil, damn it.

MudAnt
10-02-10, 04:34 AM
http://imgur.com/zr1dH.gif

Fixed

deVille33
10-02-10, 09:38 AM
Snow? Oh yeah, it's not the snow that kills our cars, unless you have poor tires and bad judgment, but the salt they put on the snow. :xgrin:
Was trying to find an illustration, but this is as close as I could get.

The-Dullahan
10-02-10, 02:52 PM
Then they should just start using Sugar on the roads instead of salt. It melts ice twice as fast, keeps it from returning much better and does not cause rust the way that salt does. **** sugar, we don't need it for anything else anyway.

Save the Salt for driving away disembodied spirits, that is clearly more important.

YourMainParadox
10-02-10, 03:41 PM
you would not be able to drive a foot without hitting a deer or maybe the sea of ants would be so strong your hearse would get carried off and cities over run!

Stingroo
10-02-10, 03:54 PM
Fixed

I lol'd.

sven914
10-02-10, 10:00 PM
Then they should just start using Sugar on the roads instead of salt. It melts ice twice as fast, keeps it from returning much better and does not cause rust the way that salt does. **** sugar, we don't need it for anything else anyway.

Save the Salt for driving away disembodied spirits, that is clearly more important.

They use beet and cranberry juice up here... It makes everything look like a bloody mess.

Stingroo
10-02-10, 11:24 PM
That's kind of cool. lol In Maine and Massachusetts they use copious amounts of salt.

The-Dullahan
10-03-10, 12:29 AM
My car is testament to Massachusetts and the saltfloods.

I think I have to move to Ohio now...Blood snow sounds good.

I wouldn't care about hitting deer, because if I lived someplace where it snowed, I would have a snowplow on my car all winter long and I don't think many ants are out during the winter, but if they wanted to carry my car, I could same some gas.

No updates, as I have not found a 500 (for less than ten grand) except one that is locked up and quite far away and a 455 that doesn't cost 5 grand, but one somewhat nearby that is filled to overflowing with rain water.

YourMainParadox
10-03-10, 12:52 AM
there was the running 500 in jax for only $600 for months and months

Stingroo
10-03-10, 01:41 AM
^ Yeah. Like, literally it was in the auto parts section of CL for over six months.

The-Dullahan
10-03-10, 02:01 AM
I need to dedicate more effort to Craigslist and it's stupid varying locations.

YourMainParadox
10-03-10, 12:30 PM
I know I linked it to you before :P

YourMainParadox
10-03-10, 12:45 PM
I wish I lived in NJ http://cgi.ebay.com/Coffin-Style-Casket-Greece-Great-Shape-/110591971309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfcb8fed or WV http://cgi.ebay.com/THEATRICAL-CASKET-FULL-SIZE-VAMPIRE-GOTHIC-HALLOWEEN-/170546566081?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b55e13c1

The-Dullahan
10-03-10, 11:36 PM
The "theatrical" style ones are little more than cheap Halloween props. Though I have never purchased one (As a new one can rival the price of an actual new casket) their durability is reportedly horrible and they are rather poorly made. One is better finding an actual casket for the price. the other one is quite lovely, cross or not.

Hmmm, that cross DOES remind me of something though. Last year at Ultimate Horror Weekend there was a random casket just sitting around...maybe when nobody is looking...

YourMainParadox
10-04-10, 12:58 AM
Bad Dully! If said casket happens to end up in jacksonville I don't know what happened <.< :P

Did caskets look different in the 70s?

The-Dullahan
10-04-10, 04:55 PM
In what way? The basic design of funeral Coffins today was the same in the seventies, though many things have changed in production. likewise, the classical "toe-pincher" styles were (and are) still available. Actually, there were a few points in history where they were trendy.

If you really WANT a coffin, aren't there hardware stores near you? Wood is simple to find, then you just invest in the handles and such that you want from an outside source, probably online (unless Jacksonville has a Custom Casket Handle Retail Inc.).

If you do NOT have such a place, I do recall that several companies make DIY Coffin kits for the hands-on people who want to built themself a fully functional casket for their funeral. They do not run very cheap, One company actually makes one specifically designed for "Halloween Prop" use, and is effectively less costly than the others, due to the subtraction of several features.

Or purchase a Cardboard one. No lie, they make those...they're just REALLY LAME... Should If ever go into a business where I must pack and ship things, I think all of our boxes will go out in cardboard caskets.

YourMainParadox
10-04-10, 10:33 PM
you can also buy a coffin muffler for your car if you want :P

The-Dullahan
10-04-10, 11:49 PM
And one with a special compartment that cooks hamburgers.

Inevitable Engine Swap will result in Dual Exhaust. Not precisely sure how I will manage that, but I WILL manage it.

Stingroo
10-05-10, 01:03 AM
Duals shouldn't be difficult to do on your hearse.

The-Dullahan
10-05-10, 03:27 AM
Okay.

Let's say I hypothetically found a 500 up the road for a good price.

Exactly WHAT do I need to get it in my car? (aside from buying it)

Stingroo
10-05-10, 08:49 AM
Different transmission for sure. 200R4 + 500 = certain unavoidable death and destruction

csbuckn
10-05-10, 10:20 PM
engine mounts and oil pan from 77-81 RWD caddy, bigger radiator(do you have a 3 core in the hearse?), th400 w/kickdown switch, another driveshaft and lots of gas money. Plus whatever updates you wanna do to the motor while its out like seals, gaskets, cap/rotor/wires. Your driveshaft may be the tricky part because you have a two piece type setup, dont you? Dont know what you would do to make it longer. If you use your 200r4 gently or build it up to handle a little more power, you would just need the mounts and oil pan.

The-Dullahan
10-06-10, 01:21 AM
No intention to keep the transmission, unless I am sure I have someone to build it up for me (which I have heard is easily the better choice than the TH400)

Just wasn't sure what else I needed besides cooling/mounts/oilpan/drivetrain, but apparently my suspicions were dead on, with no intentional pun. My Radiator is however a 3-Core, as when I had to change the Radiator, I realized I could get a 3-Core for about five dollars more than the standard.

Gas Money is not a big problem, a 307 with a car as heavy as mine is already costing plenty of that.

This would be much easier if I could buy the engine now, change what I wanted and get the rest over the next few weeks, but alas, where the Devil would I keep a 500 sitting around? Albeit, if I had an engine stand and it just showed up that way in my family's Garage (in place of where my spare wheels are sitting, which could be moved out) I do not think they would particularly mind, as it would already be there and what's the point of moving it then?

there is a good chance this engine will be sold before I get everything I need. May haps the indefinite decision is to decide on an engine (Which will inevitably be a 500 if I get my way) and just locate what I need for it BEFORE finding said engine.

csbuckn
10-06-10, 01:44 AM
I think building the 200r4 would be the better idea so you can have overdrive, especially if you aren't gonna beat on it.

YourMainParadox
10-06-10, 09:01 AM
I just picked up an engine stand for $10 off craigslist :O Now I need an engine for it :P If you drop a 500 in there I will be jealous.

The-Dullahan
10-07-10, 02:02 AM
I think building the 200r4 would be the better idea so you can have overdrive, especially if you aren't gonna beat on it.

Contemplated that before. If I take it to my shop, the fellows there will have no time building it into something stronger.

The-Dullahan
10-07-10, 02:06 AM
I just picked up an engine stand for $10 off craigslist :O Now I need an engine for it :P If you drop a 500 in there I will be jealous.

Start Getting Jealous. It is an inevitability.

Stingroo
10-07-10, 02:32 AM
:postpics:

[/input]

The-Dullahan
10-07-10, 02:40 AM
No engine yet. I have been working basically nonstop lately and will do the same tomorrow, then disappear for three days, but return triumphant with photos of Hearses to share with all of you. Haven't even gotten to CALL about the engine, and I doubt that everyone else is up all night like me, so there is no calling I can be doing right now. As stated, I would need an engine stand.

Funny, unrelated story. The reason I never got a second car is because I had nowhere to park one, but my father has told me that he wants me to purchase a Muscle Car, because he does not like NOT having one in his garage. I hope chopped '29 Model A Ratrods count as Muscle Cars, because they certainly do in The Big Book of All Things Pennsylvanian.

YourMainParadox
10-08-10, 12:23 PM
7.7L count as muscle car? :P

The-Dullahan
10-10-10, 09:12 PM
In my book, a Cadillac always beats a Muscle Car of comparable age, regardless of speed. Why drive a Chevelle/GTO/Charger/Camaro when you can drive an Eldorado? To choose ANY of the others over it is pure insanity. Unless it's was an Eldorado made after '76. Those were all little, tiny baby-cars.

RippyPartsDept
10-10-10, 09:37 PM
i drove a 77 seville one day around our parking lot - it needed to be moved so a roadway shipping truck could make a turn after coming through our lot the wrong way

it seemed like a very cool old car, and was in great shape

The-Dullahan
10-13-10, 01:40 PM
Precisely what kind of work and materials are needed to build my transmission into something that can and will handle the 500's ruthlessness?

Stingroo
10-14-10, 01:02 AM
I recommend scoping out a Buick Grand National forum. I'm sure there are guys there who know ALL ABOUT building super strong 200R4's.