: Colder Spark Plugs



Sevillian273
09-26-10, 09:32 PM
How can I find colder heat range plugs for the 4.5/4.9L Engines?

I am running a very hot ignition system including an MSD 6A box and lots of timing in my 4.5L. I am taking all possible action to prevent spark knock including a 180deg thermostat, plenty of EGR, 19lb(RICH)injectors, cold air intake, and 93 octane shell gasoline. The last thing I'd like to do is put in colder plugs but Im not sure where to look.

Yea I know its not worth the effort trying to make this slow car a little faster but its MY slow car and the thrill for me is in the chase, not the E.T.'s. Illumina was worshiped on these boards for doing the same things and he probably did them for the same reasons I am. If all I wanted to do was go fast, I'd finance a vette or buy an old 5.0L stang... But wheres the fun in that? I'd rather make a slow car even a smidge faster than just buy a fast car. That's boring.

End rant.

Anyways, colder plugs anyone?

Submariner409
09-26-10, 10:28 PM
"Hot" or "cold" plugs have almost nothing to do with perceived "knock". The terms refer to the ability of the plug itself to perform self-cleaning by maintaining center ceramic and ground electrode temperatures high enough to prevent fouling. The heat range is determined by the mass of the center ceramic and the outer shell, which determines the rate at which plug body heat is passed to the cylinder head; the spark isn't any hotter or colder - the plug cleaning ability is the determining factor - by your own admission you're running a rich mixture: exactly the wrong situation to go to a colder plug and its greater fouling ability. Print out the plug heat range tables from DENSO, NGK, Champion, Delco, Autolite, Motorcraft, whatever floats your boat. Google each manufacturer and specify " xxxxxxx heat range table".

"Plenty of EGR" - remember that EGR introduces exhaust gas into the intake air in order to slow down the combustion process by starving the incoming mixture of oxygen.

19# injectors won't do a damn thing unless you can up the basic fuel pressure and change the injector pulse timing length.

What's your static compression ratio ??? Unless you bump it up to 10.5 - 11:1, then advancing timing and running 93 octane accomplishes nothing.

Remember that a 4.5, at about 270 c.i., is smaller than a 2bbl 1964 Chevy 283 and you're trying to lug around about a half ton more car.

There ain't no substitute for cubic inches.

drewsdeville
09-26-10, 11:23 PM
Remember that an engine is basically an air pump...the more air you can get in and out, the more power you'll make.

The heads on the 4.X's are incredibly restrictive. If you were really serious about upping the power, this is really where you need to focus. Even then, you won't get too much out of it with two tiny valves per cylinder.

You are still running those 19#'s knowing that the PCM doesn't have the range to control them? I thought you were planning on running BMW 16's...

The 180 thermostat might not be a good idea. Remember that this engine is aluminum blocked and iron headed. The engine was designed to run warmer and the correct operating temp is essential for gasket integrity, namely head gaskets. Don't want to create a bigger mess just for 1 or 2 horsepower from a cooler temp.

+1 on the spark plug self cleaning vs temp range.

Sevillian273
09-26-10, 11:31 PM
"Plenty of EGR" - remember that EGR introduces exhaust gas into the intake air in order to slow down the combustion process by starving the incoming mixture of oxygen.

By 'plenty of EGR' I mean that the egr system in my car is 100% of factory spec. Completely clean EGR delivery tubes and manifold passages(cleaned during a recent intake gasket replacement), fully functional EGR solenoid, and brand new Delphi EGR valve. In other words, the EGR system will not be blamed for the incessant spark knock that this car seems to be plagued with (even at 8deg BTDC)


19# injectors won't do a damn thing unless you can up the basic fuel pressure and change the injector pulse timing length.

Being that the car requires 16# injectors, using 19# injectors causes it to run slightly rich because the 19lb/hr flow rate happens to peak the (4.5L)ECM's ability to correct for a rich (19lb injector)condition. The computer does its correction by reducing the injector's pulse width so in fact yes, it can reduce the injectors pulse timing width but with 19lb units the BLM bottoms out (runs out of correction) and remains slightly rich. I am fine with this because of all the injectors I've run (stock16lb, 16.6lb, 18.25lb, and 19lb) The car runs smoothest and with the most power with the 19lb injectors. With any injector with a lesser flow rate I have had spark knock even at 10degrees BTDC on 93 octane. Why? Who knows. At this point I dont care. This is why I want to take all steps necessary to avoid spark knock even at the cost of mileage.


What's your static compression ratio ??? Unless you bump it up to 10.5 - 11:1, then advancing timing and running 93 octane accomplishes nothing.

Then why is there such a marked power increase when I give it 3 - 4 degrees of extra base timing? Placebo? I think not. WHy would my compression ratio (9.5:1) have anything to do with whether or not I benefit from more base timing? Every car Ive owned had more power after a couple extra degrees of base timing including my lo-po 8:1 compression ford. I think we have a miss-communication.

As long as I have the 19lb injectors I dont get spark knock. With 16.6lb injectors I have to run 6 degrees of base timing to eliminate spark knock. With 18.25lb injectors I have to run 8 degrees timing to eliminate knock. On 19lb injectors I can crank the timing up to 14 deg and run knock free all day with gobs of power (well... 'gobs' compared to stock configuration) <--- all of this on 93octane shell.

I understand the fouling issues with colder plugs but in my situation with lots of timing and a hot ignition I think a colder plug would better suit my situation. Lets just pretend that this is a race engine we're talking about and it sees higher combustion temps and hotter operating conditions that a street car and might benefit from colder plugs.:bonkers:

drewsdeville
09-26-10, 11:53 PM
By 'plenty of EGR' I mean that the egr system in my car is 100% of factory spec. Completely clean EGR delivery tubes and manifold passages(cleaned during a recent intake gasket replacement), fully functional EGR solenoid, and brand new Delphi EGR valve. In other words, the EGR system will not be blamed for the incessant spark knock that this car seems to be plagued with (even at 8deg BTDC)



Being that the car requires 16# injectors, using 19# injectors causes it to run slightly rich because the 19lb/hr flow rate happens to peak the (4.5L)ECM's ability to correct for a rich (19lb injector)condition. The computer does its correction by reducing the injector's pulse width so in fact yes, it can reduce the injectors pulse timing width but with 19lb units the BLM bottoms out (runs out of correction) and remains slightly rich. I am fine with this because of all the injectors I've run (stock16lb, 16.6lb, 18.25lb, and 19lb) The car runs smoothest and with the most power with the 19lb injectors. With any injector with a lesser flow rate I have had spark knock even at 10degrees BTDC on 93 octane. Why? Who knows. At this point I dont care. This is why I want to take all steps necessary to avoid spark knock even at the cost of mileage.



Then why is there such a marked power increase when I give it 3 - 4 degrees of extra base timing? Placebo? I think not. WHy would my compression ratio (9.5:1) have anything to do with whether or not I benefit from more base timing? Every car Ive owned had more power after a couple extra degrees of base timing including my lo-po 8:1 compression ford. I think we have a miss-communication.

As long as I have the 19lb injectors I dont get spark knock. With 16.6lb injectors I have to run 6 degrees of base timing to eliminate spark knock. With 18.25lb injectors I have to run 8 degrees timing to eliminate knock. On 19lb injectors I can crank the timing up to 14 deg and run knock free all day with gobs of power (well... 'gobs' compared to stock configuration) <--- all of this on 93octane shell.

I understand the fouling issues with colder plugs but in my situation with lots of timing and a hot ignition I think a colder plug would better suit my situation. Lets just pretend that this is a race engine we're talking about and it sees higher combustion temps and hotter operating conditions that a street car and might benefit from colder plugs.:bonkers:

Just for comparison, I eventually started researching my own injector problems after noticing a DECREASE in power after switching to 19lb injectors. With the 16's back in, the car never had more power than it does now. By seat of the pants feel, I swear this 4.5 Eldo is faster than any of my 4.9's were.

No matter which injector set I used, I've never had any spark knock out of my '90 4.5. Timing is at 10 degrees on the dot.

I am, however, running everything completely stock and fully functional. Cap, rotor, and plug wires are all AC Delco. Bosch copper core plugs. Fully functional A.I.R. system.

You've been running rich with injector problems for quite a long time now. What are the chances of severe carbon buildup in the combustion chamber giving you some spark knock?

Sevillian273
09-26-10, 11:53 PM
Remember that an engine is basically an air pump...the more air you can get in and out, the more power you'll make.

The heads on the 4.X's are incredibly restrictive. If you were really serious about upping the power, this is really where you need to focus. Even then, you won't get too much out of it with two tiny valves per cylinder.

Agreed. I'm not trying to make serious power out of this engine. I'm trying to maximize that power that it can make in its stock (heads,cam,reciprocating assembly)form even at the cost of mileage / longevity. Kind of like overclocking... Again, the thrill is in the chase and I only really need to justify this to myself. Being practical is drab and boring.


You are still running those 19#'s knowing that the PCM doesn't have the range to control them? I thought you were planning on running BMW 16's...

I ran them for 2 weeks and it was torture. Extreme spark knock. Had to back the timing to 6deg on 93octane. I even threw in the 180 T-stat which did help but not much. They did 24 hours on the DIY injector bench on pure techron before installation and proved leak free at 80psi. Also BLM values in the high 150's


The 180 thermostat might not be a good idea. Remember that this engine is aluminum blocked and iron headed. The engine was designed to run warmer and the correct operating temp is essential for gasket integrity, namely head gaskets. Don't want to create a bigger mess just for 1 or 2 horsepower from a cooler temp.

I've read enough arguments for and against this that I dont know what to think. I do know that it still reaches and maintains closed loop operation on the 180 stat. I like to think that it gives me a little 'overclocking headroom' (timing/knock protection). I dont expect extra hp from a colder t-stat. If I blow a head gasket I'll pM you and post pics of the tear-down.


+1 on the spark plug self cleaning vs temp range.

Makes sense but I think the MSD and hot coil will keep colder plugs plenty clean. I would love to throw in a colder set and find out.

drewsdeville
09-27-10, 12:08 AM
Makes sense but I think the MSD and hot coil will keep colder plugs plenty clean. I would love to throw in a colder set and find out.

A "hot" ignition really isn't part of the equation. The heat range is a gauge as to how well heat is transferred from the combustion chamber to the spark plug tip. It needs to retain enough heat to keep itself clean and stay cold enough to prevent detonation. As far as heat range goes, your plugs will act the same with your MSD setup as it will with the bone stock HEI.

Because it's a matter of combustion temps, heat ranges in street engines with egr really aren't a concern and spark plug performance really doesn't vary that much as street engines run fairly cool. It becomes more of a concern in race engines where combustion chamber temps are much higher.

Sevillian273
09-27-10, 12:26 AM
Just for comparison, I eventually started researching my own injector problems after noticing a DECREASE in power after switching to 19lb injectors. With the 16's back in, the car never had more power than it does now. By seat of the pants feel, I swear this 4.5 Eldo is faster than any of my 4.9's were.

No matter which injector set I used, I've never had any spark knock out of my '90 4.5. Timing is at 10 degrees on the dot.

I am, however, running everything completely stock and fully functional. Cap, rotor, and plug wires are all AC Delco. Bosch copper core plugs. Fully functional A.I.R. system.

You've been running rich with injector problems for quite a long time now. What are the chances of severe carbon buildup in the combustion chamber giving you some spark knock?

Actually all my injector problems were on units under 19lb. First I bought a set of Bosch III's from Precision Auto Injectors advertised at 19lb but were actually 18.25lb per the part #. Power was ok but I had an occasional hard hot start and eventually realized that they leaked when they were hot. I also had spark knock but didnt realize that that was the sound I was hearing so in the meantime I searched all over and under the car for something loose and rattling around until I backed off the timing and realized that what I was hearing was spark knock.

Then I tried a set of Allante injectors (19lb/hr but didnt know it at the time) which leaked horribly all the time but the car had excellent power on them. By this point I had built the injector test bench along with a few random sets of injectors on Ebay to clean up with the machine. What Im running now is one of those random sets from a ford explorer rated at 19lb.

With the 19lb injectors, MSD, 13deg timing, flowmaster, feline delete, un-driven smog pump, and 93 shell, the car is the fastest its ever been and probably ever will be.

To my knowledge the AIR system only serves the catalytic converter's operation and has no effect on the way the engine runs itself. The effects of the air system only apply themselves after the exhaust gasses leave the heads so I dont see how the lack of it could possibly affect engine operation. Accoring to the FSM when E049 is present there is no action taken by the ECM to change the engines running parameters. Only the CEL.

Carbon buildup? I cant say for sure but I doubt it as I only run top tier fuel. Also the BLM is not at 108 100% of the time. Its 111 to 115 while cruising but a solid 108 at idle. I would think that if it was running rich enough to cause build up it would be slow as a dog and bog down quite a bit but thats just speculating. Being that I do sometimes see higher BLM's than 108 and that it seems to run pretty damn good, I think that the ECM has somewhat of a handle on the A/F ratio.

drewsdeville
09-27-10, 12:36 AM
will be.

To my knowledge the AIR system only serves the catalytic converter's operation and has no effect on the way the engine runs itself. The effects of the air system only apply themselves after the exhaust gasses leave the heads so I dont see how the lack of it could possibly affect engine operation. Accoring to the FSM when E049 is present there is no action taken by the ECM to change the engines running parameters. Only the CEL.


Ah my bad, I forgot you completely deleted it.

Though no longer related to your car but possibly good for future refrence, the AIR system can cause running issues if it's not working properly, mainly if it's constantly pumping air to the exhaust manifold, skewing the O2 sensor signal. I have had one or two handed to me for diagnosis that ended up being a failed diverter valve with the diaphragms melted out of it from the exhaust check valves leaking. Does all kinds of funky stuff with the fuel trim and will sometimes even trip a E046 along with it, throwing many people off course for diagnosis.

This is usually why I try to stress that others on here don't ignore the E049 code. It's rumored to be harmless but that can be far from the truth in instances like the above.

Sevillian273
09-27-10, 12:41 AM
A "hot" ignition really isn't part of the equation. The heat range is a gauge as to how well heat is transferred from the combustion chamber to the spark plug tip. It needs to retain enough heat to keep itself clean and stay cold enough to prevent detonation. As far as heat range goes, your plugs will act the same with your MSD setup as it will with the bone stock HEI


Because it's a matter of combustion temps, heat ranges in street engines with egr really aren't a concern and spark plug performance really doesn't vary that much as street engines run fairly cool. It becomes more of a concern in race engines where combustion chamber temps are much higher.

The bold is what Im after. I tend to think that in my engine with so much timing that it sees higher combustion temps than the stock spark plug may be designed for. I also would guess that the higher spark potential would counter against plug fouling if any.

In any case, I would love to try a set of colder range plugs to prove myself wrong. Im just not sure where to look or how to identify the part numbers of different brands.

Sevillian273
09-27-10, 12:42 AM
Ah my bad, I forgot you completely deleted it.

Though no longer related to your car but possibly good for future refrence, the AIR system can cause running issues if it's not working properly, mainly if it's constantly pumping air to the exhaust manifold, skewing the O2 sensor signal. I have had one or two handed to me for diagnosis that ended up being a failed diverter valve with the diaphragms melted out of it from the exhaust check valves leaking. Does all kinds of funky stuff with the fuel trim and will sometimes even trip a E046 along with it, throwing many off course for diagnosis.

This is usually why I try to stress that others on here don't ignore the E049 code. It's rumored to be harmless but that can be far from the truth in instances like the above.

Makes perfect sense. Actually when my diverter failed I manually rerouted the pump output back to the air cleaner to avoid this. Im using a 4.9L serpentine belt to bypass the pump. :thumbsup:

Submariner409
09-27-10, 08:24 AM
In any case, I would love to try a set of colder range plugs to prove myself wrong. Im just not sure where to look or how to identify the part numbers of different brands.

Post #2, end of first paragraph.

Sevillian273
09-27-10, 06:19 PM
Doh. Skipped right over that. Thank you. I found the Delco table http://www.acdelco.com/parts/spark-plugs/identification.jsp and it specifies the second number as the heat range. R44LTS6 is the stock heat range (4) Heat range 3 is discontinued but there is a R42LTS6 which happens to be for 82-83 cadillacs. These are simply the stock copper core plugs but I'd like to go with rapid-fires. The Delco part# for those is just "14". :hmm:

the recluse
10-05-10, 11:08 PM
Have you tried playing around with gapping? What about different brands of plugs? I know Bosch Platinum's SUCK in this motor. I put a set of Delco Iridiums in a friends motor and they run good, but I'm not looking to change the plugs in my 4.9 until I'm sure all the problems with the car are sorted out. It runs rough(by rough I mean "a little less smooth" then normal) from time to time but seems to iron itself out.

I will say a good port and polish is exactly what this engine needed. The center runners are the most emaciated, having to share with the EGR system, while the end intake runners have the lions share of real estate. I wish I had a flow bench to dial in exactly what I was taking out, but with about 20 hours labor I think I came pretty close.

Admittedly, the valves are somewhat small, but so is the displacement. Couple that with the fact the TB is only about 300 CFM, I think I can get the heads to outwork the engines ability to breathe NA. Probably the reason these motors open up a lot when boosted...

daniel58
10-06-10, 02:47 AM
As Drewsdiville mentioned the engine is basically an air pump, anything you can do to assist in this is usually the cheapest bang for the buck. Having just changed the plugs 4 times in my 4.5 Deville... well lets just say this is the last thing I personally would experiment with. Old school performance as I remember would start with making exhaust and intake flow better, intake mods, headers etc. I'm thinking the OEM exhaust when working correctly is not that restrictive, Intake mods are expensive. Have you done anything to open up the intake, like mods to the air cleaner. Just a suggestion because in looking at my 90 4.5 the air cleaner assy looks a bit restrictive.

Sevillian273
10-20-10, 08:45 PM
Well, without getting into a long winded discussion about intake and exhaust as seen on soo many ricer forums, my thoughts are as follows:

Exhaust:

A larger exhaust will allow for more top end power but the drawback to this is that it will move the peak torque up higher in the powerband. This is not favorable in a street car that rarely sees 4 grand. With less backpressure, exhaust scavenging occurs at a higher rpm. So the total power output of the engine(airpump) will be higher with less backpressure but in street conditions this extra output will not be utilized. I actually think that I would see a benefit by putting the factory exhaust back on the car. I never really noticed any gain by opening up the exhaust.

Intake:

I firmly believe that on an engine with no modifications to the heads/cam(flow potential), the stock CAI and filter is perfectly adequate and will physically flow more cubic feet of air than the engine ever could demand.

Intakes are popular because they are marketable. They are shiny, colorful, and very easy for Joe Ricer to install with nothing more than a screwdriver. And thanks to the placebo effect and some loosely defined HP claims, Joe is satisfied with his purchase and will recommend it to his friends. :thumbsup:

drewsdeville
10-20-10, 09:24 PM
I agree to this 100%

The whole car is set up from the factory to run to the best of it's abilities. Intake, exhaust, ignition, and fuel systems are all designed to be capable of working to the abilities of the rest of the setup (and then some). There is no one system holding the whole setup back. The only time any of this needs to be upgraded is when the core components are upgraded, increasing the demands that exceed the limits of the stock systems. And when that happens, they have to be upgraded as one rather than individually.

It's just a bunch of smaller systems working together as one, and they have to be treated as so to see any gain.

Sevillian273
10-21-10, 10:23 PM
I agree to this 100%

The whole car is set up from the factory to run to the best of it's abilities.

*within EPA guidelines.:cop:

Its no wonder that race cars, drag cars, offroad vehicles, etc dont run EGR, smog pumps, cat converters, VCC/TCC, and the like. Hell I bet even the cam profile of the 4.5/4.9 is spec'd to be emissions compliant.

the recluse
10-24-10, 11:59 AM
The whole car is set up from the factory to run to the best of it's abilities.

This I disagree with for four reasons:

1) The whole car is set up from the factory to run with the least amount of problems for warranty work. Too much of a hot rodded engine destroys streetability. Minus faulty,defective, or poorly designed parts, the motor is designed, assembled, and tested to run optimally under a wide variety of climates and driving conditions. If the set up was off the car could prematurely break down, causing the dealer warranty work.

For instance, the car that is assembled and tested in Detroit can now be shipped and driven in Florida with no major rework done by the dealership. Back in the day before computer controlled parts, dealerships had to readjust carburetors, timing, and points according to cold/hot weather conditions, altitudes, and the like. If you took inventory in large quantities, your service department had a lot of work to do under the hood to get the cars to run right.

2)Changing minor things boosts improvement. Why does a minor timing change boost the motor? Intakes are more than just shiny, they help control the powerband. Where do you want your max power? Do you want more torque, or HP? Headers and a cam change do improve power output, yet they don't come from the factory like that, do they? Which leads me to my next point...

3) Cost of manufacturing in MASS quantities. The other reason you don't see headers, big cams, specialty intakes, etc, on normal production cars is the cost of R&D and manufacturing would kill an automaker. Headers are welded, manifolds are cast. Cams are ground for emissions and streetabilty, yes, but a high lift cam requires beefy valvetrain components, which equal more money and time to perfect and install. Then there is the ECM developement to get all the components to work....the list is almost endless....

4) The amount of money to be made in aftermarket parts is astronomical. If your going to make a part that increases performance, you might as well get paid for it and let someone else deal with all the headaches. After all, installing it voids the warranty, right?

In the end guys, it is just a business. It is a matter of giving the public a product that is most cost effective for the manufacturer, reliable enough for the dealer, and well rounded enough for the consumer. It is my job as an enthusiast to improve on said development for my personal enjoyment, and there is ALWAYS room for improvement.:yup:

drewsdeville
10-24-10, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I should have rephrased that, bad wording on my part...what I meant was that all of the systems compliment each other. You really can't just upgrade one system and expect significant overall improvement. They are all plenty capable for the job they are doing, no single system alone is holding the whole engine back.

For example, there's no benefit from "upgrading" to a far more capable fuel system (hi flo fuel pump, larger injectors, adjustable FPR) when the engine is breathing through the stock heads, intake, and exhaust and can only flow so much air.

the recluse
10-24-10, 04:13 PM
You really can't just upgrade one system and expect significant overall improvement. They are all plenty capable for the job they are doing, no single system alone is holding the whole engine back.

Gotcha', I understand. :thumbsup:

I have run across quite a few people that thoroughly believed that the engine comes from the factory completely topped out and that ONLY bolt on performance is the key (if you guessed "ricer" you get the "Type R" sticker).

Half of these people have never really blueprinted an engine and/or really understand what engine building REALLY means :annoyed:

Sevillian273
10-27-10, 09:47 PM
So, on a hunch concerning carbon buildup, I gave the seville a heavy seafoam treatment. It was the last option I could think of for taking care of the spark knock. Well I think it worked. I dont hear any spark knock now at 10 deg BTDC / 93 octane. I'm not big on magic potions and I've had mixed results with the stuff in the past but I figured what the hell do I have to lose?

The spark knock was something that seemed to set in slowly ever since I started running larger injectors. At first it only happened when I had alot of timing but recently it would happen all the time even at 8 deg BTDC. I think running the motor rich for so long caused carbon to build up in the combustion chambers causing the spark knock. It's all Ive got to go on at this point. I used to run 14deg of timing, no EGR, and a 195 T-stat during the summer with no problems at all.

I didnt think carbon would be a problem since I only run top tier fuel but I havent heard the sound since I did the seafoam treatment. I probably should have done a compression test in the first place. I'm going to hit it with the seafoam one more time, change the oil, and then bump the timing to 12 deg and see how it goes.

the recluse
10-27-10, 11:09 PM
I didnt think carbon would be a problem since I only run top tier fuel but I havent heard the sound since I did the seafoam treatment.

Premium fuels actually burn slower, and with the excess fuel in the cylinder at the end of the burn cycle....well you get the point, running rich produces carbon.

Now, the carbon build up can capture heat and retain it, but the worst thing about carbon buildup is the "embers" in the hot spots in the cylinder. These can cause detonation in some cases. I would look into reducing the amount of fuel...

Sevillian273
10-28-10, 04:13 AM
I would look into reducing the amount of fuel...

A set of the correct 16#'ers is too expensive. The farthest I went was refurbishing a set of 16.7lb BMW injectors but for some reason it ran like crap on those. Im done dumping wads of cash into this car. Im gonna drive it as is until I find something else...

the recluse
10-28-10, 04:20 PM
If you do this:


Again, the thrill is in the chase and I only really need to justify this to myself. Being practical is drab and boring.

You eventually get here:


Im done dumping wads of cash into this car. Im gonna drive it as is until I find something else...

Could those BMW injectors run on a different resistance, something not used to the ECM? Could they just be broken? I'd go to the boneyard and meter out a bunch of injectors (to find good ones) just to see how it runs with a stock setup. Hell, even 4.9 injectors are only a pound or so more...:hmm:

It just may be the carbon buildup leading to detonation, and with a little SeaFoam you may be able to run it with the setup you've got...:aj:

Sevillian273
10-28-10, 06:16 PM
If you do this:



You eventually get here:



LOL That's pretty good! I've had fun tweaking but at this point there's nothing left to do. I've done everything that a home mechanic can do to get the most out of this engine and at this point I see no more potential. I need a new toy.



Could those BMW injectors run on a different resistance, something not used to the ECM? Could they just be broken? I'd go to the boneyard and meter out a bunch of injectors (to find good ones) just to see how it runs with a stock setup. Hell, even 4.9 injectors are only a pound or so more...:hmm:

It just may be the carbon buildup leading to detonation, and with a little SeaFoam you may be able to run it with the setup you've got...:aj:

The BMW injectors have the same resistance as the others. I ran them for hours on my test rig on 50x concentration of techron. They all had the same spray, same resistance, and appeared to flow the same according to my crudely devised measurement system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9yGrFFCPa8&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=wDhhpkL_dKA

According to Delphi's website the 4.5 injectors flow 3lb/hr less than the 4.9's.

It runs pretty good as is so Im probably going to leave it alone since Im looking for another car in the near future. If it was indeed carbon buildup causing the knock, it took a good year or so to show up so I may just hit it with the SF twice a year to keep her clean....

the recluse
10-28-10, 08:33 PM
LOL That's pretty good!

Sometimes you gotta remove yourself from the situation to see the humor in it...:sneaky:

What about a new motor rebuild for the car? Take a donor from the yard. Costs just as much as another beater car and you can do it in your spare time without taking up the garage space?

Just a thought...

drewsdeville
10-28-10, 08:47 PM
According to his post in the lounge, this little problem with the engine is the least of his worries.

On the other hand, one large attempt to "do it right" would probably renew your interest and would cost you less than another car. You clearly aren't happy with the car in the condition it's in, but you don't plan to get rid of it (and wouldn't get much as-is if you wanted to). It won't be worth much to sitting in your driveway in it's current condition, and it won't be worth much to anyone else if you sell it. It needs this attention either way.

Not that I'm trying to change your mind, but really I don't see how it makes sense from any angle to bail on it, leaving it sit. In reality, struts, injectors and a fuel pump really aren't that much money, you'll have to do it eventually, and at least then you'd have a car you could do something with, whether that be happily drive or sell.

Sevillian273
10-28-10, 09:10 PM
I do intend to keep it and take care of it but what Im finding is that the enthusiasm isnt really there anymore. As long as Im going to keep it, I will do the work to keep it running and road worthy. I will keep it running and driving but nothing more. It will get the fan motor and a fuel pump when necessary but I have no plans to do the suspension (front: $350 DIY, rear ~$200 shocks / $200 ELC comp DIY). All the things that make me unhappy driving it dont seem worth it to me to fix because like I said before, all I have in the end is a 90 Seville. The car is nice but it just isnt me.

I dont think I would get my money back if I spent it to make the car 'sell-able' so once I find something that I really like to work on, the seville will probably spend the rest of its days as a spare A to B 'parts getter' vehicle for my next big money pit.

I might be looking at a another T-bird this weekend: http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/cto/2027894927.html

the recluse
10-28-10, 11:17 PM
The car is nice but it just isnt me.

I know what you mean. The Eldo is actually supposed to be my wife's car but with the problems I had at the beginning of the year with it it somehow ended up being my problem and my wife "inherited" my STS. Women, you can't live with them and you can't shoot them :suspect:

All I want is my motorcycle back, but it threw a drivebelt and I haven't had time to replace it (even though it's hanging in my office) with the bathroom remodel I've got going on....


I might be looking at a another T-bird this weekend: http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/cto/2027894927.html

DON'T spend any money on that car until I talk to a guy I know. I can probably get you the same car for about $500, although it is here in Jacksonville.

Sevillian273
10-29-10, 06:32 PM
No shit? Thats scary cheap. It would have to be able to make the trip down to Palm Bay.... Probably 4 hours or so on 95.

the recluse
10-30-10, 12:13 AM
The guy told me what was wrong with it a while ago, fuel pump or something, I'll find out for sure tomorrow (Saturday). It ran when he parked it, other than...I don't know I'll find out.

the recluse
10-30-10, 09:23 PM
The car is a 1965 Thunderbird with a 390 in it. I was told it has all options available for that year except FM radio. All original.

$500 is what he wants for it. It has been sitting under a tree for 5 years or so and looks horrible but the body is straight with minor rust. He said it needs a fuel pump to run and used to blow smoke at start-up (probably bad/failing valve guides). probably would need tires also.

Lemme know and I'll see if I can PM pics if interested...

Sevillian273
10-30-10, 09:50 PM
Yikes that is a bit more than Im willing to deal with. I might check it out if it was closer to me but I think it would take at least a few trips back and forth to get it road worthy and who knows what gremlins may pop up afterwards since its been sitting for so long. Sounds like a good deal though but just not very feasible for me. No way I could afford a flatbed from Jacksonville to PB. Thanks for looking into it though I appreciate it.

The one I'm looking at tomorrow is 30 miles away and needs a battery, tire, and probably the gas tank drained and filled with fresh fuel as it has been sitting for over a year. I hope to get it home under its own power.

the recluse
10-30-10, 10:31 PM
No problem. The most you'd say was no and the best you could do is save money. No skin off my back since it wasn't my car to unload anyway :thumbsup:

Happy hunting...

Sevillian273
10-30-10, 10:44 PM
Really the biggest obstacle is the distance... All the cool cars I find are too far away! Those birds are beautiful. For $500 bucks it would be a great car to snag and store away for future restoration.