: Heel and toe: Is anyone able to do this in the V2 coupe or sedan?? If so how?



Vcoupe11
09-16-10, 12:38 PM
I thought if I could accomplish this manuever in the C6 Corvette I could do it in any car. This new V coupe presents a heel toe challange that I have not been able to overcome. The distance height wise between the brake pedal and the gas pedal seems way too large.

Any one got any tips?

Gary

Silver -V-
09-16-10, 01:17 PM
I changed out to SRP pedals (site sponsor), and added a spacer to the gas pedal. It is quite a bit better, and looks great. The downside is that there is still enough of a distance apart, that it is not a 100% perfect solution. I can H&T if I am concentrating on foot placement with the new pedals. On a track, you can't always concentrate that much on your exact foot placement, and I sometimes have to revert to 3 pedal foot work.

khoeysr
09-16-10, 04:13 PM
I realize that this may immediately get me kicked off the forum and I will have to park my V and give up my fobs, but.... what exactly does heel and toe mean?

Vcoupe11
09-16-10, 04:34 PM
I realize that this may immediately get me kicked off the forum and I will have to park my V and give up my fobs, but.... what exactly does heel and toe mean?

There may be other's who can explain this better than me but here is my version:
Manual transmission.

One scenario where this is used is to be able to downshift a manual transmission (push in clutch pedal) and brake at the same time while blipping the gas pedal to match rpm of engine to the speed of the car so that when you let out the clutch the car does not lurch forward or nose down.
Left foot on clutch pedal right foot on brake pedal and gas pedal at same time while blipping to maintain engine rpm.

Gary

Teutonaddict
09-16-10, 06:39 PM
I changed out to SRP pedals (site sponsor), and added a spacer to the gas pedal. It is quite a bit better, and looks great.

Any chance you could post pix of your SRP + spacer arrangement? I too have purchased the SRP's from the Supporting Vendor, but haven't had a chance to do the install yet. I've noticed that pedal placement is suboptimal for H&T, but the added width of the SRP gas pedal, plus raised height thru spacers has to be a big improvement.

Any pix, or in the absence of those, further description of how you raised the height of the big pedal would be MOST appreciated. TIA!

~Dave

garfin
09-16-10, 08:47 PM
I realize that this may immediately get me kicked off the forum and I will have to park my V and give up my fobs, but.... what exactly does heel and toe mean?

Asking is a great way to find out about something you don't know!:thumbsup:

I have figured out a way that works for me to heel & toe this car. I've found that raising and keeping my right heel off the floor (rather than letting it rest on the floor) alters the angle of the sole of my foot relative to the brake and gas pedals enough so that I can roll the right side of the ball of my right foot over to the gas pedal while still applying the brake with the left side of the same foot.
It ain't what I'm used to and I'm not comfortable enough (yet) with my right heel off the floor (less leverage because the foot isn't braced against anything) that I'd be willing to do this on a track at high speeds. It takes a bit of concentration after doing this for 40 years with my right heel on the floor, but I'm OK with this technique when downshifting on the street. Hopefully practice makes perfect.

Here's an explanation...
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

Here is a step-by-step guide on how to heel-and-toe downshift. It will explain how to shift from fourth gear to third gear, though the technique will work for any downshift.

1. Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.

2. Push in the clutch with your left foot.

3. This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. The pedal design on some cars makes this easier to do than on others. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.

4. Move the shifter to third gear.

5. Release the clutch with your left foot.

As you can see, "heel-and-toe" is a misnomer. It actually involves the ball of your foot and the side of your foot. We'll be the first to tell you that heel-and-toe downshifts aren't easy. We've found that a good way to practice is to just sit in your car in your garage and pretend you are doing a heel-and-toe downshift with the engine off. Keep repeating the steps until you are familiar with the process. Once you are ready, try it out for real. Most likely, your early attempts will be botched. Keep trying, though. Practice each step slowly and then work your way to making them all one, fluid motion. Skilled drivers can execute a heel-and-toe downshift in less than one second.

The trickiest part is getting the correct amount of rpms to match the new gear. If you blip the throttle too much, the engine has too much speed compared to the wheels and is forced to drop down to the wheel speed when you let out the clutch. If you don't blip the throttle enough, the engine rpms are forced to rise up. Either way, you know you didn't do it right as the car will jerk a little.

You'll also know it when you did it right. A proper heel-and-toe downshift is so smooth and so satisfying that, once done correctly, you'll find yourself using the technique all the time. The great thing is that you don't have to be a racecar driver or be on a racetrack to use it. Additionally, using the heel-and-toe downshift technique on the street can improve safety. In certain emergency situations, you might be required to brake heavily and then accelerate quickly. By heel-and-toe downshifting, your car will be in the best gear to achieve maximum acceleration.

So, let's recap. It's fun to do. It improves driving safety. It reduces the amount of powertrain wear on your car. Other than the amount of time it takes to learn, there is no downside. What more could you want?

FWIW, again, depending on the car and pedal setup, I have seen drivers actually use their heel to blip the throttle rather than using the ball of their foot to cover both the brake and gas pedal.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Elie

fasterthanrays
09-16-10, 09:30 PM
delete

shchow
09-16-10, 09:37 PM
There are videos on youtube with a camera focused on the footwell demonstrating the technique...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4

BtwoG
09-16-10, 09:44 PM
SRP pedals are certainly the way to go. Decent price and high quality. The SRP pedal is a little thinner than the existing brake pedal, so that effectively lowers the brake pedal and reduces the gap somewhat. As mentioned previously, you can put a spacer between the SRP metal cover and the gas pedal. I used an 1/8th inch thick piece of sound deadener material used for stereo systems that I had lying around. At first, I had two sound deadener sheets (for about 1/4 inch total spacer thickness), but under hard braking, the brake pedal would be lower than the gas pedal, so I decided on a single sheet.

andrewperez
09-16-10, 10:09 PM
I can do it, but IMO your foot size (girth) and shoe style are the biggest dictators.
Based on pedal distance in the car, I do it either by using the knife edge of my right foot or heel of my right foot for the gas rev-match.

For my V (stock rubber pedals), my size 10 is somewhat slender so I can pull it off using my heel. I will admit that the only way I can do it consistently is by wearing my narrow shoes. Using dress shoes, short boots or even tennis shoes causes problems for me.

It's just like anything else...practice, practice, practice.

Good luck Gary

GMX322V S/C
09-17-10, 07:02 AM
I thought if I could accomplish this manuever in the C6 Corvette I could do it in any car. This new V coupe presents a heel toe challange that I have not been able to overcome. The distance height wise between the brake pedal and the gas pedal seems way too large.

Any one got any tips?

GaryA variation on what garfin suggests: try moving your seat a little closer to the pedals than normal, which will leave more of a bend in your right knee; that way, with your heel off the floor, it may be easier to pivot your heel over to blip the gas pedal while braking.

GMX322V S/C
09-17-10, 07:16 AM
There are videos on youtube with a camera focused on the footwell demonstrating the technique...

Nice! But for the best I've ever seen, I've gotta give it up to Mark Skaife--multi-time Australian V8 Supercars champion. Speed-shifts, power-shifts, flat-shifts, brake pressure checks, lap after lap, smooth and consistent. Here's but one (old) sample:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXLTjDVgWc

:bows:

chrswk
09-17-10, 07:21 AM
With the Oakley racing shoes I use on the track and the stock pedals (SRPs are on the way), I had to rotate my leg counter clock wise and use the heel instead of just tilting the foot and use the outside of my right foot. It gets easier the harder you brake into a corner. It's definitely not the best setup, but it worked just fine.

And to the people who are using this on the street and without proper racing shoes: Really?! Why?! It's like hard acceleration at a traffic light, completely useless and unnecessary.

garfin
09-17-10, 12:23 PM
And to the people who are using this on the street and without proper racing shoes: Really?! Why?!

In order to practise and get more comfy with the feel of this car's pedal setup :yup:... gotta walk before you run, IMHO.

But I do agree that appropriate footwear is necessary Maybe not a dedicated racing shoe for the street, but a driving shoe or Pilotis work for me when I drive this car (as opposed to my Crocs!)

Best regards,

Elie

shchow
09-17-10, 01:46 PM
And to the people who are using this on the street and without proper racing shoes: Really?! Why?! It's like hard acceleration at a traffic light, completely useless and unnecessary.

Entering on-ramp to highway, downshift and heel-toe to prevent loss of momentum, and accelerate into turn, and enter highway.
That's the reason the automated manuals have rev-matched downshifting...perfect heel-toe each time without actually having to heel-toe...

thebigjimsho
09-17-10, 02:03 PM
I really couldn't heel and toe in my '04 until I changed my pedals. It's actually worse in the '09 because the center console restricts my right leg movements.

But the good news is if you ever track at Waterford Hills, you're best off just keeping it in 3rd all the way around the track...

newcadman
09-17-10, 03:39 PM
In order to practise and get more comfy with the feel of this car's pedal setup :yup:... gotta walk before you run, IMHO.

But I do agree that appropriate footwear is necessary Maybe not a dedicated racing shoe for the street, but a driving shoe or Pilotis work for me when I drive this car (as opposed to my Crocs!)

Best regards,

Elie

GARFIN: So can we expect to see a demonstration of your technique at your MOSPORT track any time soon?