: Thoughts...



King335i
09-16-10, 03:18 AM
I'm about to purchase a 2011 CTS-V Coupe, and the only thing that has me hesitating in the least bit is something that I wanted to bring up here and get your guys' opinions about.

My concern is this: I don't want to purchase the CTS-V Coupe and then hear a year and a half later that there is a new dual-clutch automatic version coming out. Is that likely with the V? One of the only criticisms of the V is its automatic transmission, doesn't this seem like something that GM would be jumping all over? Or will it most likely be left until the next-gen V Coupe (if there is one)?:confused:

e6t
09-16-10, 03:42 AM
the c7 corvette (2012) is rumored to have dct. i doubt it will trickle down to the ctsv until the v3.

buy a 6mt, then you dont have to worry... its what i did.

MReiland
09-16-10, 07:00 AM
My understanding (I am NOT in Powertrain) is that the Torque of this motor is the issue. The level of torque + some headroom drove it into a truck based automatic. I am sure that you can make a DCT capable of harnessing over 550 ft/lb + some and make it last for 100k miles but the cost will surely be higher. Heck until just a few years ago, 550 ft/lb was considered Turbo Diesel pickup level.

Ziggerman
09-16-10, 08:09 AM
A DCT at 551+ lbs would likely be less reliable (and less smooth) than the current transmission. I'd rather see manual shift times improved w/o going DCT. A lot of transmission innovation in the last few years (DCT,8-gear etc.) was driven by the needs of low-torque/high-rev engines and the LSA just doesn't have those issues. I just hope PR doesn't force the issue...

Domsz06
09-16-10, 09:06 AM
um, don't the exotics have dct's that are fully capable of high hp and tq? I realize yes they are more expensive.

I don't believe it is a real issue. The car will have one when GM has them. They just became popular with BMW and what not so now the are progressing to the other levels.

Buy a 6MT and then don't worry about it. A DCT won't be in a cadd for at least 3-4 years, so enjoy the car and drive it. The auto isn't that bad really. You just need to think about what gear you wanna be in if you really need the hp, or just wait the second for it to drop 2 gears and away you go.... If you don't like that then have it tuned, and it really brings out the beast.

I have an auto in my z06 with 551 rwhp and I can tell you I LOVE driving the crap out of the auto ;)

wfo
09-16-10, 11:28 AM
These autos are great. Nothing wrong with them. There are way more autos than manuals and that says something.

The Nurburgring record was set with this auto architechure. So quit listening to the naysayers and enjoy the great car that it is.There's always going to be technology on new succeeding models we can't get. That's life.

sefa01
09-16-10, 12:15 PM
I have an auto in my z06 with 551 rwhp and I can tell you I LOVE driving the crap out of the auto ;)

I have a Z06 and have never heard of one with an AT.

Domsz06
09-16-10, 12:18 PM
I have a Z06 and have never heard of one with an AT.

custom job.

Long story short, my dream car, bought after 18 months of research, for my college grad present to myself, accident took my right leg, kind of hard to drive 3 pedals with 1 foot, and I didn't want to loose my car.

M-1028
09-16-10, 12:19 PM
I have a Z06 and have never heard of one with an AT.

I'm sure it was swapped in, I've seen alot of high hp Z06's with 4L80's

M-1028
09-16-10, 12:22 PM
custom job.

Long story short, my dream car, bought after 18 months of research, for my college grad present to myself, accident took my right leg, kind of hard to drive 3 pedals with 1 foot, and I didn't want to loose my car.

That's crazy!! Glad you got your dream car. What trans is in your vette?

Domsz06
09-16-10, 02:17 PM
That's crazy!! Glad you got your dream car. What trans is in your vette?

4l60e

:)

Domsz06
09-16-10, 03:20 PM
A DCT at 551+ lbs would likely be less reliable (and less smooth) than the current transmission. I'd rather see manual shift times improved w/o going DCT. A lot of transmission innovation in the last few years (DCT,8-gear etc.) was driven by the needs of low-torque/high-rev engines and the LSA just doesn't have those issues. I just hope PR doesn't force the issue...

really? I mean there are tons of cars much heavier and more hp then the v and they have dct.

SLS - 563 hp and 480 tq with a dct

SL65 has 604 hp and 700ish tq and it has it

SL65 black has it

911 turbo has it

458 has it

v12 599 has the dct...

They can easily handle the power and tq, gm just needs to buy one, make one, or out source it :D

MReiland
09-16-10, 04:02 PM
really? I mean there are tons of cars much heavier and more hp then the v and they have dct.

SLS - 563 hp and 480 tq with a dct

SL65 has 604 hp and 700ish tq and it has it

SL65 black has it

911 turbo has it

458 has it

v12 599 has the dct...

They can easily handle the power and tq, gm just needs to buy one, make one, or out source it :D

Nothing listed above is in the price range of the V. I am sure you could do it, it comes down to the ROI, if the DCT was an extra 10k or 15k would you buy it over the Auto/Man? SLS ~ $200k, SL65 BS ~$300k, 911 Turbo ~130k + ....

GMX322V S/C
09-17-10, 01:00 AM
Then there's the Veyron at 980-something to 1,200 HP. Of course the Ricardo DCT unit probably costs as much as our whole car...

Domsz06
09-17-10, 09:00 AM
if they can put a dct in an m3, and then allow for a supercharge in it that boosts well over our cars (they are all over if you look) then there is a DCT.

GM will have one, just a matter of time.

Domsz06
09-17-10, 09:02 AM
Nothing listed above is in the price range of the V. I am sure you could do it, it comes down to the ROI, if the DCT was an extra 10k or 15k would you buy it over the Auto/Man? SLS ~ $200k, SL65 BS ~$300k, 911 Turbo ~130k + ....

BMW M3 is a DCT, granted it doesn't have as much hp, but many are supercharging it and then it has over our hp and the dct is still performing great.

Domsz06
09-17-10, 09:04 AM
I guess I jsut don't buy that a DCT is that expensive.

Everyone knows what it is right? It's a manual transmission (cheaper then an auto, better wear and tear)with 2 clutches and a computer. Come on all of our auto's have a computer that talks to the main ECU. and an extra clutch? not that costly.

Give me a break, DCT's are not that high. and if they buy from a company that already has the technology then they just have to make it talk to the ECU.

I just don't buy it that they are that expensive. GM just didn't invest in it yet, because no one saw it taking off like they did.

Yes it was expensive at first because it was new technology, but just like aftermarket parts for our current v the prices drop. I have talked to people that had to have the first pulley's and upgrade items and what they paid for it new last year, now i can buy the same part new for cheaper, more vendors out there and the prices drop.

GM will have a DCT, they will have to if they want to compete with BMW, Mercedes, Audi. Just give them a few years (GM is always slow) and they will have it. Rumor is Ford is bringing one out next year, and you know Ford and GM are always neck and neck.

jft69z
09-17-10, 09:27 AM
Then there's the Veyron at 980-something to 1,200 HP. Of course the Ricardo DCT unit probably costs as much as our whole car...

They just had a special on cable the other day on the Bugatti. I don't remember if it was on Nat-Geo, Science Channel or Discovery, but it was on the design & manufacturing of the car. They had a pretty good segment on the DCT, with a good look at the internals. Nice car for $1,750,000 BEFORE you start to add options. 1001 hp and speed limited to 253 mph for stability reasons, if I remember correctly.

StoopidSavant
09-17-10, 10:45 AM
Don't worry, GM's making it happen. Just not for 556HP cars (and likely not for the American market at first):
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/gm-developing-dual-clutch-transmission-with-saic.html

Also, again bear in mind this issue of cost. GM has already had the 6L90 (and its variants) in at least 13 different models for a few years now, so likely the cost of development and tooling has been/will be well over tens of thousands of vehicles (same goes for the Tremec TR-6060). I have no doubt that GM has the cojones to develop and install DCTs in hi-po vehicles like the CTS-V, but they would probably do some major planning to start phasing in such a tranny on multiple vehicle lines.

Luckily for Cadillac owners, GM's other halo car - Corvette - is likely the killer app that will drive development of such a DCT.

And MReiland, just curious, what department are you in, if you're comfortable answering?

chrswk
09-17-10, 11:06 AM
They just had a special on cable the other day on the Bugatti. I don't remember if it was on Nat-Geo, Science Channel or Discovery, but it was on the design & manufacturing of the car. They had a pretty good segment on the DCT, with a good look at the internals. Nice car for $1,750,000 BEFORE you start to add options. 1001 hp and speed limited to 253 mph for stability reasons, if I remember correctly.

To quote Wikipedia:


The transmission is a dual-clutch direct-shift gearbox computer-controlled automatic with seven gear ratios, with magnesium paddles behind the steering wheel and a shift time of less than 150 milliseconds, by Ricardo of England rather than Borg-Warner, who designed the six speed DSG used in the mainstream Volkswagen Group marques. The Veyron can be driven in either semi- or fully-automatic mode. A replacement transmission for the Veyron costs just over $120,000.

MReiland
09-17-10, 12:05 PM
And MReiland, just curious, what department are you in, if you're comfortable answering?

GM Manufactuing Advanced Robotics (i.e. Robonaut ---> Heading to the space station on STS-133 in November of this year (Not me, the Robot)). My Background is in Manufacturing Controls, Robotics, and Welding.

Florian
09-17-10, 12:26 PM
GM Manufactuing Advanced Robotics (i.e. Robonaut ---> Heading to the space station on STS-133 in November of this year (Not me, the Robot)). My Background is in Manufacturing Controls, Robotics, and Welding.

I sell Fanuc....Toledo digs me.

F

Torxila
09-17-10, 01:02 PM
King 335i,

If you truly don't want a stick car, just get an auto and have some reputable tuner just reset the trans values with HP tuners etc.

You can adjust ALL the parameters to have it normal (stock) in "D" and break your neck/smoke the tires in "Sport/manual". Complete tune should be 5-600 bucks, tops.

As for the auto "Z's" many C6 Z's running the 6L80 trans conversion as well. RPM trans in Indiana does a ton of them.

Domsz06
09-17-10, 01:35 PM
King 335i,

If you truly don't want a stick car, just get an auto and have some reputable tuner just reset the trans values with HP tuners etc.

You can adjust ALL the parameters to have it normal (stock) in "D" and break your neck/smoke the tires in "Sport/manual". Complete tune should be 5-600 bucks, tops.

As for the auto "Z's" many C6 Z's running the 6L80 trans conversion as well. RPM trans in Indiana does a ton of them.

I opted for the stronger 4l60e since there is no difference in final gearing between the 6 n 4 speed. Rather have one that can handle more hp ;)

thebigjimsho
09-17-10, 01:57 PM
These autos are great. Nothing wrong with them. There are way more autos than manuals and that says something.

Lazy Americans? Drag racing only? Don't know how to drive a manual?

Domsz06
09-17-10, 02:29 PM
Lazy Americans? Drag racing only? Don't know how to drive a manual?

what about physically incable of driving an manual? I would have a manual if i could :(

but I think most are numer 1 and 3 of your choices.

Torxila
09-18-10, 10:36 AM
I opted for the stronger 4l60e since there is no difference in final gearing between the 6 n 4 speed. Rather have one that can handle more hp ;)

Dom's,
Just recently, a company out of Texas has pretty stout 6LE80 'vette trans, using billet (P-glide style) hubs, single surface Raybestos (sp?) clutch packs plus many other poop inside.

I sold my TT C6-A6 'vert too soon. Guy in SC has it now and has one of these trannys and a 3400 stall (triple clutch lock up). car puts out 780ish rwhp with no probs so far. Overall final drive with A6 is not the same as A4. A6 with 3.15 rears at 70mph, turns 1600rpm (285-19 rears)

I agree A4 can take 1000rwhp, but just saying A6's are starting to progress.
Regards,
George

Domsz06
09-18-10, 02:05 PM
Dom's,
Just recently, a company out of Texas has pretty stout 6LE80 'vette trans, using billet (P-glide style) hubs, single surface Raybestos (sp?) clutch packs plus many other poop inside.

I sold my TT C6-A6 'vert too soon. Guy in SC has it now and has one of these trannys and a 3400 stall (triple clutch lock up). car puts out 780ish rwhp with no probs so far. Overall final drive with A6 is not the same as A4. A6 with 3.15 rears at 70mph, turns 1600rpm (285-19 rears)

I agree A4 can take 1000rwhp, but just saying A6's are starting to progress.
Regards,
George

When I looked between the 2 the A6 vs A4 the final OD was .02. To me that is not worth it. Maybe they have changed it but last year that's how it was. so it wasn't worth that. You won't notice any difference in mpg, so why have a weaker tranny?

wfo
09-18-10, 06:40 PM
Lazy Americans? Drag racing only? Don't know how to drive a manual?

I hear ya bigjimsho. Drag Racing is to America as Apple Pie and vanilla ice cream.

The V's my DD. I love the manual, but find it a royal P.I.T.A commuting. Had my fill with the Vettes. So I got over the loss and now love the auto. Same great car, same great power and when it really counts, in and around around town, it smokes most any manual off the line and points beyond. There will be a day when I'll go back to a 6spd when the newly designed Vettes appear. To me the V is the utlimate sleeper and the auto is perfect.

It sure is great to be in America and American.

Now how about that pie?

Z06ified
09-19-10, 01:08 PM
really? I mean there are tons of cars much heavier and more hp then the v and they have dct.

SL65 has 604 hp and 700ish tq and it has it

SL65 black has it



No, those use traditional automatics with a manual mode. And they're only 5 speed units. It's the only transmission Mercedes has that can handle the torque, and the black series was detuned to save the transmission.

Ferrari and Lamborghini have DCT's that can handle the torque, but their models all cost north of $250,000. The 911 turbo has close to the torque output of the V, and I would say it is the closest in price, but it's still twice the price of the V. Bottom line is, it can be done, but it is expensive. No car at the price point of the V has this much torque and a DCT. So if the V got a DCT, it would be a pioneering effort at this price and torque level. My guess is they're working on it, it will be borrowed from the C7 Corvette which will almost definitely have it, and it won't be available until the V3, at the earliest. Since the C7 won't be out until 2013, you're looking at least another 3 or 4 years before a V will see a DCT, IMO.

Domsz06
09-19-10, 01:23 PM
No, those use traditional automatics with a manual mode. And they're only 5 speed units. It's the only transmission Mercedes has that can handle the torque, and the black series was detuned to save the transmission.

Ferrari and Lamborghini have DCT's that can handle the torque, but their models all cost north of $250,000. The 911 turbo has close to the torque output of the V, and I would say it is the closest in price, but it's still twice the price of the V. Bottom line is, it can be done, but it is expensive. No car at the price point of the V has this much torque and a DCT. So if the V got a DCT, it would be a pioneering effort at this price and torque level. My guess is they're working on it, it will be borrowed from the C7 Corvette which will almost definitely have it, and it won't be available until the V3, at the earliest. Since the C7 won't be out until 2013, you're looking at least another 3 or 4 years before a V will see a DCT, IMO.

which units do you speak of? the one's I listed are all DCT's, yes some are more expensive then our cars, but not all of them. And the M3 is a DCT as well. It can easily handle our power... Some are more expensive yup, but not all. Audi uses DCT now as well....

It's already been done, GM just needs to jump on the band wagon.

JFJr
09-19-10, 01:55 PM
If you are hesitant about the automatic transmission, do what a few previous posters recommended, get the manual transmission. The clutch, throttle and shifter all work together effortlessly to make driving the "V" fun and engaging. I love mine and sometimes have to remind myself that I'm driving a manual transmission car. It's such a natural, smooth setup and doesn't call attention to itself and wear you out; and I live in a large city with lots of traffic.

Jud

Domsz06
09-19-10, 07:01 PM
If you are hesitant about the automatic transmission, do what a few previous posters recommended, get the manual transmission. The clutch, throttle and shifter all work together effortlessly to make driving the "V" fun and engaging. I love mine and sometimes have to remind myself that I'm driving a manual transmission car. It's such a natural, smooth setup and doesn't call attention to itself and wear you out; and I live in a large city with lots of traffic.

Jud

so many feel that way. I know before I was injured I drove my z06 in LA traffic and it was so easy to drive a manual. I can imagine the V is the same way. Sad I can't drive a manual anymore....

JFJr
09-20-10, 11:04 AM
I know before I was injured I drove my z06 in LA traffic and it was so easy to drive a manual. I can imagine the V is the same way. Sad I can't drive a manual anymore....Real sorry about your accident, but at least you're still able to enjoy the automatic transmission "V." I drove a friend's C6 Z06 and the experience was much the same. I believe that both cars have the same version of the Tremec transmission. The Z06 and "V" are perfect complements.

Jud

Domsz06
09-20-10, 01:38 PM
Real sorry about your accident, but at least you're still able to enjoy the automatic transmission "V." I drove a friend's C6 Z06 and the experience was much the same. I believe that both cars have the same version of the Tremec transmission. The Z06 and "V" are perfect complements.

Jud

yes they are and hence why I love driving them both. Got the z out this weekend and stretched her legs... until it started raining :( I hate driving her in the rain, oh well I need to give her a good cleaning anyway.

StoopidSavant
09-20-10, 03:29 PM
Is it possible to operate a pedal with a prosthesis? I'm assuming they've worked out a few devices by now, just don't know if enough pressure can be generated to do heavy braking.

Domsz06
09-20-10, 03:38 PM
Is it possible to operate a pedal with a prosthesis? I'm assuming they've worked out a few devices by now, just don't know if enough pressure can be generated to do heavy braking.

Depending on the level of amputation. People with BK (below knee) you won't even know they have it if they are wearing jeans.

People with AK (above the Knee) can to a point, it's just much harder.

People like me total removal of femur, but some calcium grew in my stump so I can kind of wear a AK prosthesis. It's very hard and I have yet to find a comfortable one. I honestly don't even wear it and just use crutches. Currently I just cross foot, but I'm hoping to put a second pedal in the clutch assemply place and link it to the orginial pedal so I can not cross foot. In my z, fran moved the gas to the left and it's so comfy but I won't let anyone drive it as there is not a pedal on the right and dont' want them to wreck it.

Just gotta find an extra pedal.

gnxs
09-20-10, 04:17 PM
..................And the M3 is a DCT as well. It can easily handle our power......
I would say that's perhaps optimistic at this point. The BMW DCT might be able to handle it for a period of time on a car that has aftermarket forced induction (I assume the comparable torque M3 you speak of has a power adder).

Having it on a car whose owner values speed more than warranty is one thing. Putting it in a car and being committed to a 5 year/100,000 warranty is another.

Domsz06
09-20-10, 05:02 PM
I would say that's perhaps optimistic at this point. The BMW DCT might be able to handle it for a period of time on a car that has aftermarket forced induction (I assume the comparable torque M3 you speak of has a power adder).

Having it on a car whose owner values speed more than warranty is one thing. Putting it in a car and being committed to a 5 year/100,000 warranty is another.

true, but it can/could be done. It's not like the M3 isn't close to our HP and tq from the factory and they offer a 50k warranty.

gnxs
09-20-10, 05:10 PM
true, but it can/could be done. It's not like the M3 isn't close to our HP and tq from the factory and they offer a 50k warranty.
I thought the current M3 made less than 300 ft. pounds of tq. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

EDIT: http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-m3.html#

I hear what you're saying about the aftermarket cars. I haven't heard of any failures on some of the cars with aftermarket blowers on them. However, even with forced induction many of them don't even equal the factory tq. our cars produce.

Z06ified
09-20-10, 05:13 PM
true, but it can/could be done. It's not like the M3 isn't close to our HP and tq from the factory and they offer a 50k warranty.

What? The M3's HP and tq ISN'T close to the CTS-V's. The M3 does 414hp and only 295 lbs. ft. of torque. That's a LOT less than the 556hp and 551 lbs. ft. of torque the CTS-V does.

That's 34% less horsepower, and 87% less torque, to be exact. The LSA would tear the M3's DSG transmission apart. Hell, even BMW's diesel in the 335d would tear the M3's DSG apart, and that engine puts out "only" 425 lbs. ft. of torque. Which is why the 335d is only available with an automatic. BMW doesn't even have a traditional manual that can handle 425 lbs. of torque, much less a DSG.

Domsz06
09-20-10, 05:40 PM
What? The M3's HP and tq ISN'T close to the CTS-V's. The M3 does 414hp and only 295 lbs. ft. of torque. That's a LOT less than the 556hp and 551 lbs. ft. of torque the CTS-V does.

That's 34% less horsepower, and 87% less torque, to be exact. The LSA would tear the M3's DSG transmission apart. Hell, even BMW's diesel in the 335d would tear the M3's DSG apart, and that engine puts out "only" 425 lbs. ft. of torque. Which is why the 335d is only available with an automatic. BMW doesn't even have a traditional manual that can handle 425 lbs. of torque, much less a DSG.

I see, I guess it isn't as close as I thought. Still I still stand by my statement it can be done. and It will be done.

When push comes to shove, a DCT is just a manual with 2 clutches, that is computer controlled, Still can be done. If it can be done in the high end cars it can be done in ours. If it's massproduced then the price will be cheaper... Like someone said earlier, they will phase this DCT into lots of cars to make the price cheaper.

Doesn't your Manual handle the tq and power???

Z06ified
09-20-10, 06:52 PM
I see, I guess it isn't as close as I thought. Still I still stand by my statement it can be done. and It will be done.


I agree, it's just a matter of time. I also think that whatever DCT GM comes up with, will be shared with the Corvette, and the Corvette will get it first.

Razorecko
09-20-10, 07:03 PM
iunno. The auto is so far proving very reliable. I can't imagine the cost of replacing a blown DCT ...

thebigjimsho
09-20-10, 08:09 PM
I hear ya bigjimsho. Drag Racing is to America as Apple Pie and vanilla ice cream.

The V's my DD. I love the manual, but find it a royal P.I.T.A commuting. Had my fill with the Vettes. So I got over the loss and now love the auto. Same great car, same great power and when it really counts, in and around around town, it smokes most any manual off the line and points beyond. There will be a day when I'll go back to a 6spd when the newly designed Vettes appear. To me the V is the utlimate sleeper and the auto is perfect.

It sure is great to be in America and American.

Now how about that pie?Some may be upset that Cadillac offered an auto at all. Personally, I don't care, especially if the auto boosts sales. As long as there is always a manual option...

thebigjimsho
09-20-10, 08:14 PM
Depending on the level of amputation. People with BK (below knee) you won't even know they have it if they are wearing jeans.

People with AK (above the Knee) can to a point, it's just much harder.

People like me total removal of femur, but some calcium grew in my stump so I can kind of wear a AK prosthesis. It's very hard and I have yet to find a comfortable one. I honestly don't even wear it and just use crutches. Currently I just cross foot, but I'm hoping to put a second pedal in the clutch assemply place and link it to the orginial pedal so I can not cross foot. In my z, fran moved the gas to the left and it's so comfy but I won't let anyone drive it as there is not a pedal on the right and dont' want them to wreck it.

Just gotta find an extra pedal.Then I'm really glad Cadillac offered an auto...

Domsz06
09-20-10, 10:46 PM
Then I'm really glad Cadillac offered an auto...

Me too me too!!! And why I bought the V2!!!!! So happy!!!