: Hi ! Wanting to purchase an STS (Please HELP)



what
09-08-10, 05:11 PM
hi guys, I'm new to this. so I'm in the market for a new ride, and looking towards a 2007 STS V6, AWD if possible. Even a 2006 would be good. I'm looking at around 50,000 km's up to 75,000 km's. right now, I have a BMW 745i and that thing has a massive maintenance/repair/gas bill. I want a good ride, that I can drive 80-100 kms a day or so and will not give me problems. So, just need some feedback from you guys. Is the STS a reliable car? I don't care so much about the gas, just about any issues it has. So far I'm hearing mixed reviews from my research. I was also looking at a Lexus ES/GS but the Cadillac is the one I was more attracted to. I hope to really become a part of this forum one day! Please give me some guidance, on things to look out for, because right now there are a lot of great STS's on the market for around $21k.

How come they are cheap and resale value isn't all that great?
Is it good in the snow? I'm from Canada.
Is the NAV system good? I usually travel a lot within the day.

Just a couple of questions that I've been wondering about. thank you guys!! :D

stevenriz
09-09-10, 10:06 AM
I have a 2005 STS4 1SG (which I believe is fully optioned) and bought it 16 months ago with 14995 miles on it or about 24k km to you haha for $24995. anyway I now have 60000 miles without any issues whatsoever! I love the power and the nav is something to get used to but I like it now that I know how to use it... I especially like the adaptive cruise and frontal accident avoidence system, needless to say it saved me once while texting and now I DO NOT text while driving! The head up display is something to show off and I especially like the nav directions in the HUD! Helps when you're trying to surprise someone and you don't know how to get there!! hm what else... oh one thing I do not like is having to use extreme force to honk the horn! Well it isn't that bad, but it is hard to honk... One other thing I don't like but I beliece is a performance option is the staggered tire sizes from front to back. My fronts are getting warn. I love everything else about it!! Permium fuel gives me additional MPG's so if the price is right, it's worth it! Good luck!!!

05awdupstater
09-09-10, 11:03 AM
My 2007 STS awd has been stellar. Absolutely no problems. Some minor annoyances like a tire pressure monitor that hates the cold winter weather and a mirror that does not always reset itself. It seems to do most everything extremely well. I have averaged 24 mpg over the past 6 months. The awd works well in the snow. The nav system is adaquate.

They are selling "cheap" because a used luxury car is not always someone's first choice. Repairs can be expensive and the monthly payment can be within a $100 - $200 a month on a new lease.

P.S. my '07 with 39,600 miles is currently for sale $24,700 usd. (shameless plug).

caddyfat2
09-09-10, 12:09 PM
Cadillacs(imho) are still the KING OF THE AMERICIAN ROAD But my 05 1SG AWD has been less than stellar. I purchased it 2.5 years ago and it's been back to the dealer about 10 times since then for new left and right side headlight composites, a new steering rack a new start button a new ashtray a new wood panel surround for the navi/radio and recently a new alternator and a new coil kit.....BUT i STILL LOVE IT. Just purchase some sort of extended warranty to help defray some or all of the cost.

what
09-09-10, 12:45 PM
hey guys thanks for the great input. how are the maintenance charges? can regular oil changes/serviced be done at normal independent shops... unlike my BMW which I had to go to a special certified BMW mechanic. :banghead: thank you!

caddyfat2
09-09-10, 01:03 PM
You can go anywhere for an oil change just put Mobil 1 syn. motor oil back in. It costs me about $80 for the oil change but in the long run you will save money because you won't have to get them as often and if you don't want to go to the dealer then find yourself a good Cadillac specialist to work on your car. I know here in Tampa there is one very near to my house that only works on Caddies but I don't use them because I have an extended warranty with a $100 deductable so mines goes to the Caddy dealer.

what
09-09-10, 09:44 PM
Thank You caddyfat, 80$ sounds awesome, as I pay around $300 for an oil change on my Bimmer. I plan on having the car for about 8 months to a year before buying an extended warranty, which I def. will. I want to go look at some STS's this weekend or next week perhaps if I like the feel and drive/handling i will look onto seriously purchasing one!! cheers

EChas3
09-09-10, 11:59 PM
Get the AWD. You'll be glad you did.

IMHO, the V6 was underpowered until it was upgraded with Direct Injection in 2008. My wife rejected one during her first test drive. If you're set on 2007 or earlier because of the attractive price point, the optional goodies were rarely available on V6's. Unfortunately, a loaded V8 AWD has a thirst for gas.

If you shop around, you might be surprised at the deal you can find on a 2008 V6 AWD. These cars should start showing up (expired 3-year leases.) Get all the goodies, they are fun! I'd recommend a warranty but if you are handy or know a good mechanic, you can 'self-insure' instead of a warranty by putting away $50 a month for eventual repairs. But if you don't do either, maintenance costs will hurt.

KRSTS
09-10-10, 11:02 AM
Agree with all you say except he might want to make that $150 a month in lieu of warranty. Best idea is to find a CPO.

caddyfat2
09-10-10, 01:14 PM
agree with all you say except he might want to make that $150 a month in lieu of warranty. Best idea is to find a cpo.
krsts
i think you hit the nail directly on the head.

turnerbend
09-10-10, 01:43 PM
Don't set your expectation to high. The STS, like all other cars built now has issues and the will appear. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
My 05 STS with 16000 miles have been in for repairs. Battery replace, push button start replace, windsheld replace, both headlight assy replace, right shock replace. All under warranty. Be sure to get an extended warranty.

EChas3
09-10-10, 09:44 PM
I didn't think GM has a CPO program in Canada. I agree it's the best deal. Except for unusually high miles, a 2008 would have a year of the original warranty remaining.

I do think $150 for a 'self-insurance monthly payment' is excessive. If $50 is too low, $75 would yield a bit more than $900 after one year (including that bit of interest). Figure that even warranties won't cover tires & brakes. If money's tight and you're handy (or know a good independant mechcanic) there are less expensive parts available. All cars run on used parts.

jedhead
09-11-10, 05:29 AM
I would get one with the CPO warranty too. My STS-V's fuel sensing unit failed at 52K out of the standard warranty. The CPO took care of the problem. BTW my dealer charged me $90 for an oil and filter change. That included 9 quarts of Mobil 1.

Bob

what
09-14-10, 12:32 AM
hey guys, thanks for the GREAT information. sorry, couldn't reply in time because I was in a reported accident and had to get things cleared up with insurance and what not. anyways...you guys have cleared a lot of questions that i've been wondering for the past months. I just have one last thought...are parts for this car HARD to find and EXPENSIVE? it would be good if they are just a little above your normal car (toyota, lexus, ford). I wouldn't mind that. I just hope its not a mission finding parts and having to order them from germany for a price of 1000$ like BMW does...thank you guys this forum is great!!

EChas3
09-14-10, 12:59 AM
It's a premium car so parts will run more than Ford's. Depending on the foreign make, Lexota & Infinisan are similar. Not as bad as the black forest handiwork.

Availability is better (IMHO) but YMMV.

Greg00coupe
09-14-10, 02:02 PM
You do need AWD. Esp in Canada. mines an 05 that I have put 30K on in 3 years now at 62K miles. Not one problem.

As I always say.......assuming you have one in Canada...... go to NAPA and ask them to recommend a good local independent shop. I did that years ago and found a guy who left the local Olds Cadi dealer and went out on his own. He use to ask all his customers not to bad rap his old employer when he repaired their mistakes for less money then they charged to screw it up.

No, parts SNB an issue.

All american cars depreciate more rapidly then many foreign cars....... various reasons but none that would prohibit taking advantage of a great deal.

ahuyghe
09-14-10, 06:41 PM
hi guys, I'm new to this. so I'm in the market for a new ride, and looking towards a 2007 STS V6, AWD if possible. Even a 2006 would be good. I'm looking at around 50,000 km's up to 75,000 km's. right now, I have a BMW 745i and that thing has a massive maintenance/repair/gas bill. I want a good ride, that I can drive 80-100 kms a day or so and will not give me problems. So, just need some feedback from you guys. Is the STS a reliable car? I don't care so much about the gas, just about any issues it has. So far I'm hearing mixed reviews from my research. I was also looking at a Lexus ES/GS but the Cadillac is the one I was more attracted to. I hope to really become a part of this forum one day! Please give me some guidance, on things to look out for, because right now there are a lot of great STS's on the market for around $21k.

How come they are cheap and resale value isn't all that great?
Is it good in the snow? I'm from Canada.
Is the NAV system good? I usually travel a lot within the day.

Just a couple of questions that I've been wondering about. thank you guys!! :D

Where are you located.
I've just put my 2007 STS AWD V8 (1SG) package Black on Black fully loaded, up for sale. 54000kms.
Reason?
I drive my Avalanche all the time and the caddy just sits in the garage. I love it, but the Truck is just more practical for me at this point in my life.

Maybe we can work out a deal.

Al

what
09-14-10, 08:58 PM
I'm located in ontario...I'm sorry but I cant go all the way to manitoba. i'm trying to find a car in ontario. bu tthanks for the reply

tomm
09-14-10, 09:38 PM
My STS is a 2005 and I kick myself everytime I think about the CPO warranty I upgraded when I bought it 2.5 years ago. I have had ZERO issues and its never been to the shop except for oil changes. I thought for sure I would get my money's worth with the warranty but I guess I have been lucky and its been flawless. Its a 2005 AWD V8, Might not want to rule out 2005's since you can get really good deals on them.

next2pool
09-14-10, 11:45 PM
My STS is a 2005 and I kick myself everytime I think about the CPO warranty I upgraded when I bought it 2.5 years ago. I have had ZERO issues and its never been to the shop except for oil changes. I thought for sure I would get my money's worth with the warranty but I guess I have been lucky and its been flawless. Its a 2005 AWD V8, Might not want to rule out 2005's since you can get really good deals on them.

The reason you never had to use your warranty was because you have it :)

Giddy
09-15-10, 06:48 AM
I'm located in ontario...I'm sorry but I cant go all the way to manitoba. i'm trying to find a car in ontario. bu tthanks for the reply

I live in Ontario and bought my 2008 in NY State. I would not rule out a trip out of province to buy a car, especially a high end car like the STS. Do a VIN check on used STS's in Ontario dealerships and you will mostly find US cars. GG

KRSTS
09-15-10, 12:30 PM
My STS is a 2005 and I kick myself everytime I think about the CPO warranty I upgraded when I bought it 2.5 years ago. I have had ZERO issues and its never been to the shop except for oil changes. I thought for sure I would get my money's worth with the warranty but I guess I have been lucky and its been flawless. Its a 2005 AWD V8, Might not want to rule out 2005's since you can get really good deals on them.
Are you also kicking yourself because your heirs haven't benefited from your life insurance policy? Same idea:hmm:

ahuyghe
09-15-10, 04:21 PM
No Prob. Thought i'd throw that out there. I hope you find one. Speaking from a winter perspective, the AWD is awesome. Grips excellent and handles beautifully.

AL

MacMuse
09-15-10, 06:19 PM
My STS is a 2005 and I kick myself everytime I think about the CPO warranty I upgraded when I bought it 2.5 years ago. I have had ZERO issues ...

From the bottom of my heart - thank you. your CPO buy-in went 100%+ to cover my CPO pay-outs. My CPO has covered over $5,000 in repairs in just over 1.5 years.

headlight assembly - $800 part + install
steering wheel (heater died)
water pump (minor coolant leak)
Rack & Pinion replaced
oil manifold replaced (included A/C refill)
ECM replaced, after trying camshaft sensor & camshaft wire harness


The last item - a week long extravaganza - showed a $3,000 cost billed to CPO.

I love this car, it's a joy to drive. But it is chock full of electronics that are difficult to troublshoot (see last item, where they finally replaced the computer throwing all the codes!) and expensive to fix.

turnne
09-15-10, 07:24 PM
From the bottom of my heart - thank you. your CPO buy-in went 100%+ to cover my CPO pay-outs. My CPO has covered over $5,000 in repairs in just over 1.5 years.

headlight assembly - $800 part + install
steering wheel (heater died)
water pump (minor coolant leak)
Rack & Pinion replaced
oil manifold replaced (included A/C refill)
ECM replaced, after trying camshaft sensor & camshaft wire harness


The last item - a week long extravaganza - showed a $3,000 cost billed to CPO.

I love this car, it's a joy to drive. But it is chock full of electronics that are difficult to troublshoot (see last item, where they finally replaced the computer throwing all the codes!) and expensive to fix.


LOL..I hear that...I have had about 3K worth of work( warranty) in the past year

AC noise
Torque converter replaced
Water pump replaced
Rear end differential replaced
ashtray fixed
driver door actuator
and some assorted seals

The issue with this car( and any car for the most part)...they just throw parts at it until it solves the issue

Actually diagnosing the car and getting it right is almost a thing of the past

I have taken my car in..they called me and said they replaced something.
I pick it up...its still not working and I take it back
They replace a couple of other things and now its fixed
Trouble is..I have no idea if they just put two parts on my car( of the three) that it didn't need

I really don't care since its not my dime...but if I was paying that would be another issue


Warren

1_A_STS
09-16-10, 12:57 PM
Hello, I am in the same boat and looking for an STS. I am looking at a 2006 V8 AWD w/ 69K miles (asking price is $22K). Another 2006 RWD V8 with 45K miles (asking price $19K). What would be a fair/great deal for something like these?

what
09-16-10, 05:54 PM
Thanks guys..but I think I will win this epic repair battle.

I paid more than $12,000 in the past year for my BMW repairs. The worst part is that I don't even have warranty. Yeah, sucks, outta my pocket.

and to 1_A_STS I would go with the lower miles, a V6 and an AWD. You could change the V6 to a V8 if you like the extra power, and AWD to RWD if you dont experience snow. Lower miles are always the best though. I think 69 mi is a bit much

loman
09-16-10, 07:27 PM
See if you can find mine , i am in Toronto , just traded it on a 2010 Maxima.
Look for a Silver V6 AWD 2006 70 k . The Nissan Dealer turned it over to a wholesaler . Only thing wrong with mine was the engine. Ready my post titled Caddy no more. If the engine was repaired it would make a fine ride for about 18k.
The AWD is great in the snow. Car is really nice to look at , but i didnt like the oil consumption. Hope the Max doesnt do me wrong. Think i will go drive it right now, it has 100 kilometers on it .
Cheers

EChas3
09-16-10, 08:46 PM
The reason you never had to use your warranty was because you have it :)

Either way, it's worth it!

turnne
09-21-10, 08:23 AM
Thanks guys..but I think I will win this epic repair battle.

I paid more than $12,000 in the past year for my BMW repairs. The worst part is that I don't even have warranty. Yeah, sucks, outta my pocket.

and to 1_A_STS I would go with the lower miles, a V6 and an AWD. You could change the V6 to a V8 if you like the extra power, and AWD to RWD if you dont experience snow. Lower miles are always the best though. I think 69 mi is a bit much

12K for repairs?!

For that amount you had to have had major engine work and or trans work
I used a own a 2000 BMW until 2009...same engine basically as the 745
The biggest thing I had was a set of gaskets replaced that was about $1800...and 90% of that was labor...all to stop a few drops a day from hitting my garage floor

What did you spend $12K..on?
I think a crate rebuilt engine is less than 10K and a rebuilt trans is about 4K..these are dealer prices
Did they have to replace the whole electrical system in the car?
The 100K major service on the car is $1000...plugs..o2 sensors...filters..etc
I am trying to figure where you get to 12K?
What year( and how many miles) is the car?..if it an early model..02-03 its likely not worth more than the $12K
As for the comment about the BMW certified mechanic to do an oil change
Not true..the car can be taken anywhere as long as they used Synthetic
As I recall the BMW branded oil is Mobil 1...FYI

I agree with the statement that $22k for an 06 AWD 1SG is too high...at least $3K too high by my calculations


Warren

what
09-21-10, 07:36 PM
12K for repairs?!

For that amount you had to have had major engine work and or trans work
I used a own a 2000 BMW until 2009...same engine basically as the 745
The biggest thing I had was a set of gaskets replaced that was about $1800...and 90% of that was labor...all to stop a few drops a day from hitting my garage floor

What did you spend $12K..on?
I think a crate rebuilt engine is less than 10K and a rebuilt trans is about 4K..these are dealer prices
Did they have to replace the whole electrical system in the car?
The 100K major service on the car is $1000...plugs..o2 sensors...filters..etc
I am trying to figure where you get to 12K?
What year( and how many miles) is the car?..if it an early model..02-03 its likely not worth more than the $12K
As for the comment about the BMW certified mechanic to do an oil change
Not true..the car can be taken anywhere as long as they used Synthetic
As I recall the BMW branded oil is Mobil 1...FYI

I agree with the statement that $22k for an 06 AWD 1SG is too high...at least $3K too high by my calculations


Warren

here you go sir,

745I :

window regulator ..... $1200
passenger seat restraint sensor ..... $600
water pump ....... $1100
emissions related fault ...... $3200 est. with all parts/labour
battery ..... $600
coolant leak ...... $1500
auxiliary fan + assembly ...... $1000

there is also some other stuff that I can't remember of. This was all from only last march (2009).
And it's not even including the $2400 I've spent on tires, plus the maintenance which charges $300 just for an oil change, haha. this is why I plan on getting the STS. have invested too much money in the car. Sad I know.

caddyfat2
09-22-10, 09:17 AM
You know what What? That BMER would have been long gone.

turnne
09-23-10, 09:33 AM
here you go sir,

745I :

window regulator ..... $1200
passenger seat restraint sensor ..... $600
water pump ....... $1100
emissions related fault ...... $3200 est. with all parts/labour
battery ..... $600
coolant leak ...... $1500
auxiliary fan + assembly ...... $1000

there is also some other stuff that I can't remember of. This was all from only last march (2009).
And it's not even including the $2400 I've spent on tires, plus the maintenance which charges $300 just for an oil change, haha. this is why I plan on getting the STS. have invested too much money in the car. Sad I know.

Dude

Is that US currency?
Those prices are 2-3 times what the BMW dealer charges either in Ohio or Texas..places where I had mine serviced

An oil change is $110 in Ohio and $125 in Texas( Midwestern BMW in Ohio and Classic BMW in Texas are the two BMW dealers that serviced mine)

Window regulator is about $500

battery is $250( installed at the dealer)...you can buy one from Advance..Napa etc for $150...ironically the same price I just paid for the new battery for 05 STS last week

The coolant leak..I have no idea as to what the pricing is being I don't know how bad it was or how much labor it entailed

If you have sport package with the low profile 19"..tires should be $325 each
Standard tires are about $225 each
At Discount tire, Tire Rack..or just about any other tire store in the US

But I agree with you on one thing...if those prices you quoted are US dollars..then it is sad..because you have been taken my friend

As I said before..at any BMW dealer in Ohio or Texas you could have had the dealer install a new rebuilt long block engine and a rebuilt transmission for the prices you have paid

What year and how many miles does the 745 have on it?..how long have you owned it and was it wrecked and did you buy it with warning lights on and fluids leaking?

By the way I will sell you an every available option white diamond 05 STS AWD V8( 1SG, HUD, ACC) for $25K with 2 years of warranty left on it
Doesn't that sound like a great deal ?


Warren

what
09-23-10, 05:41 PM
Dude

Is that US currency?
Those prices are 2-3 times what the BMW dealer charges either in Ohio or Texas..places where I had mine serviced

An oil change is $110 in Ohio and $125 in Texas( Midwestern BMW in Ohio and Classic BMW in Texas are the two BMW dealers that serviced mine)

Window regulator is about $500

battery is $250( installed at the dealer)...you can buy one from Advance..Napa etc for $150...ironically the same price I just paid for the new battery for 05 STS last week

The coolant leak..I have no idea as to what the pricing is being I don't know how bad it was or how much labor it entailed

If you have sport package with the low profile 19"..tires should be $325 each
Standard tires are about $225 each
At Discount tire, Tire Rack..or just about any other tire store in the US

But I agree with you on one thing...if those prices you quoted are US dollars..then it is sad..because you have been taken my friend

As I said before..at any BMW dealer in Ohio or Texas you could have had the dealer install a new rebuilt long block engine and a rebuilt transmission for the prices you have paid

What year and how many miles does the 745 have on it?..how long have you owned it and was it wrecked and did you buy it with warning lights on and fluids leaking?

By the way I will sell you an every available option white diamond 05 STS AWD V8( 1SG, HUD, ACC) for $25K with 2 years of warranty left on it
Doesn't that sound like a great deal ?


Warren

These are all canadian prices my friend. I think a major thing you're misunderstanding is that these are the prices for a 7 SERIES... the prices you've quoted me are probably for an E46 3 series or perhaps the new one too, but the 7 series has never dipped that low into those digits. An oil change for the 7 series, even new, is around $300 at the dealer... 9 quarts of premium oil synthetic. Parts for the 745 are really rare, and usually have to be ordered from BMW. All my costs include labour + tax. My 7 is in good condition, no it is not salvaged. Your deal sounds good but I don't want an 05.. I just want 06 up. Also I don't want a V8...have already gone there and want to get a more economic car w/ less issues. Although I like your options/color/warranty. thanks for the offer, but I'll also have to check my local STS's and jump on a deal. Great day!

KRSTS
09-23-10, 06:29 PM
If you don't want a V8, I would recommend an 08 or newer with the 302 HP V6 DI. Much better fuel economy and plenty of power.

turnne
09-25-10, 10:52 PM
These are all canadian prices my friend. I think a major thing you're misunderstanding is that these are the prices for a 7 SERIES... the prices you've quoted me are probably for an E46 3 series or perhaps the new one too, but the 7 series has never dipped that low into those digits. An oil change for the 7 series, even new, is around $300 at the dealer... 9 quarts of premium oil synthetic. Parts for the 745 are really rare, and usually have to be ordered from BMW. All my costs include labour + tax. My 7 is in good condition, no it is not salvaged. Your deal sounds good but I don't want an 05.. I just want 06 up. Also I don't want a V8...have already gone there and want to get a more economic car w/ less issues. Although I like your options/color/warranty. thanks for the offer, but I'll also have to check my local STS's and jump on a deal. Great day!


The prices I mentioned are in US dollars for an E65 & series

I guess the Canadians pay more than twice as much as they do in the US?

What year and mileage is your car?

Is there an advance auto parts or Pep boys in Canada?...their battery prices are less than half of what you stated

So they are charging you $33.00 a quart for oil?...wow

Even in Canadian dollars what does a quart of synthetic oil cost...$6-7...filter is likely $15 dollars...what do they charge for labor $300/hr?
I will never have a car serviced in Canada...based on those prices you will be paying $230-240 for an oil change in a V8 STS

Interesting

Here is a copy on an ad from a dealer in Dallas Texas for a 745...2003 model with 85K

2003 BMW 745LI 8028D TITANIUM SILVER 85,407 miles $15,950


At the prices you are quoting the Canadians have to be happy to come to the US to buy and have their cars serviced


Warren

ddgm
09-26-10, 09:08 AM
We Canadians don't have it quite that bad. Oil Change (3.6) is $80 for Castrol Synthetic or $95 CDN for Mobile One at the local Cadillac dealer.
Also I had a Tire Pressure Sensor replaced, $45 CDN for sensor and $45 for labour, they charge $99 CDN an hour for labour and they wash the car for free. Right now our dollar is
at 97 cents so that puts it at about $95 US per hour. We do have a pretty stiff sales tax here at 13% in Ontario and that is on parts and labour.
We also have NAPA & Car Quest & UAP & Crappy Tire and of course WalMart and they are all pretty close to the US prices.

Doug

what
09-26-10, 02:01 PM
The prices I mentioned are in US dollars for an E65 & series

I guess the Canadians pay more than twice as much as they do in the US?

What year and mileage is your car?

Is there an advance auto parts or Pep boys in Canada?...their battery prices are less than half of what you stated

So they are charging you $33.00 a quart for oil?...wow

Even in Canadian dollars what does a quart of synthetic oil cost...$6-7...filter is likely $15 dollars...what do they charge for labor $300/hr?
I will never have a car serviced in Canada...based on those prices you will be paying $230-240 for an oil change in a V8 STS

Interesting

Here is a copy on an ad from a dealer in Dallas Texas for a 745...2003 model with 85K

2003 BMW 745LI 8028D TITANIUM SILVER 85,407 miles $15,950


At the prices you are quoting the Canadians have to be happy to come to the US to buy and have their cars serviced


Warren

no no, the prices are worse here but not as bad as you are making it. I'm on the 7 board and many people in the US have actually paid more than what I said, at the dealership (stealership, haha). The 745 is half computer, so it's much different than your Cadillac. an oil change CAN be done at home but is very different from other cars such as caddys, chevys, fords, etc. For example, the battery is in the trunk and requires special tools plus about 15 minutes of labour just to take it out. (It requires the spare to be moved, and battery pulls out). At one point, the battery "used" to be $850 at the dealer w/ labour. unbelievable, I know. I actually save money by not going to the dealership. Yeah, the 7s have gotten a lot cheaper because of their massive repair bills. So exactly why I thought an STS would be the perfect compromise...and no the oil change will still be $80-$100 here too because it doesn't require a special indy shop, any indy shop working on chevys, fords, hondas will do fine.

EChas3
09-26-10, 10:30 PM
So, 'What' is grossly exaggerating his costs or he has blissfully been taken to the cleaners by an unscrupulous dealer.

I think either offends Warren.

;)

RippyPartsDept
09-26-10, 11:01 PM
lots of GM cars have a battery in the trunk now-a-days
starting in 2000 the deville battery is under the rear seats

(just sayin)

turnne
09-27-10, 07:28 PM
So, 'What' is grossly exaggerating his costs or he has blissfully been taken to the cleaners by an unscrupulous dealer.

I think either offends Warren.

;)

I am not offended
Quite the opposite actually...I think its rather humorous

Hopefully no one here actually believes those prices....a $300 oil change....LOL
Unless that is in pesos..I think not

I noticed he has yet to mention the year and mileage of the car and I have asked twice now

Just for anyone that doesn't know...as for the battery deal...its been in the trunk of the 7 series for at least a decade

When I owned my BMW 740 I bought a battery at Pep Boys for $100 and replaced the battery in about 20 mins...frankly about the same time it took me to change the battery in my STS a couple of weeks ago

I noticed there was a another Canadian that said the prices there are about the same as the US in regard to batteries......

Must be that $300 an hour labor?


Warren

what
09-28-10, 04:43 PM
Hi warren.

Forget the 300$ for the oil change. Make it 200$, i was adding some minorities like microfilters and flush. but, it does cost that much - no lies. I have a 2003 745, has 82,000 miles on the clock. you cannot compare this to the 740 you bought. i know they are both 7 series', but this is like comparing apples and oranges. the 745 was introduced as a totally new, redesigned, full interior and exterior wise, and it consists of about 27 computers (correct me if i am wrong, I read that somewhere). the 740 back in the day was as simple as maybe a 3 series is now. but the 745 is totally different. it's known for its expensive repairs, problematic electronics and very high upkeep. it's simply a car that people cannot drive unless they have money to throw away. nowadays, obviously the new 7 series is much more reliable and better. although the service costs remain quite similar, the car has taken a lot of critism but that's from people who DON'T have one. I say its a great car, probably better than 90% of the cars being released today (besides high end cars like the new 7, S, A8, etc.) It's just a pain to keep. So thats why I plan on getting an STS. It's an american car for all that matters, parts/services won't cost me alot, I know that for a fact. the 745 has super incredibly expensive parts..like $1600 for one headlight assembly. $800 for an aux. fan. even $100 for a simple button. you understand? hope this clarifies some of your thoughts. about the battery in the trunk - didn't know many cars had that. but yeah it still costs a lot as it's a spiral cell battery...not the normal ones (it is in a huge white case)

turnne
10-02-10, 06:58 PM
Hi warren.

Forget the 300$ for the oil change. Make it 200$, i was adding some minorities like microfilters and flush. but, it does cost that much - no lies. I have a 2003 745, has 82,000 miles on the clock. you cannot compare this to the 740 you bought. i know they are both 7 series', but this is like comparing apples and oranges. the 745 was introduced as a totally new, redesigned, full interior and exterior wise, and it consists of about 27 computers (correct me if i am wrong, I read that somewhere). the 740 back in the day was as simple as maybe a 3 series is now. but the 745 is totally different. it's known for its expensive repairs, problematic electronics and very high upkeep. it's simply a car that people cannot drive unless they have money to throw away. nowadays, obviously the new 7 series is much more reliable and better. although the service costs remain quite similar, the car has taken a lot of critism but that's from people who DON'T have one. I say its a great car, probably better than 90% of the cars being released today (besides high end cars like the new 7, S, A8, etc.) It's just a pain to keep. So thats why I plan on getting an STS. It's an american car for all that matters, parts/services won't cost me alot, I know that for a fact. the 745 has super incredibly expensive parts..like $1600 for one headlight assembly. $800 for an aux. fan. even $100 for a simple button. you understand? hope this clarifies some of your thoughts. about the battery in the trunk - didn't know many cars had that. but yeah it still costs a lot as it's a spiral cell battery...not the normal ones (it is in a huge white case)

What

There is some discrepancy in what you say
So you say the oil change is now down to $200
My local BMW charges $110 for an oil change...an oil change in the STS at the Cadillac dealer is $90

The battery that 2000 740 used and your 2003 are virtually the same...check the pricing on Napa..Pep Boys..Walmart etc.......about $125
You can install it yourself in 15 mins
My old STS( and Aurora) also were more difficult as you had to remove the rear seat cushion to change the battery

The parts you listed as replaced didn't include any computers

I am not sure who your BMW dealer is but he must love you
The prices you quoted are 2-3 times the US BMW dealer pricing

As for maintenance...the newer body style actually has less scheduled maintenance than the older one did
All you have is cabin filters and O2 sensors, plugs and a few other misc items at 100K miles
$1600 for a headlight assembly sounds like you wrecked the car?

You might ask on here and see what some have paid for new headlight assemblies in their STS that started to have moisture issues

The 7 and the STS are very different cars and the expectation is that the 7 will cost more as it is a full size ultra luxury sedan...the STS is a mid size mid luxury sedan
A more comparative deal would be with a 5 series....and you would find that the cots of the 2 are quite similar

But again...based on the prices you quoted..you are 2-3x the cost of a what US BMW dealer charges

Can you come across the border for service?


Warren

what
10-03-10, 12:24 PM
I don't know where you're gettng $110 from...have you asked them for a BMW 745 or just a normal 3 series.......big difference. It takes like 9 quarts of synthetic oil itself, which is around $90. I really don't know where you're coming from. It's not a Canada vs US thing here, this either used to be, or still is almost the same in both countries. Here's a quick quote I found from Bimmerfest forums itself : http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2160356&postcount=18

I'm not comparing the 7 to the STS. You would have got that in my first post. I need a car to replace it. All I need it to be is less expensive and more reliable. And $125 for the battery? The cheapest I can find online is $240. And plus, I don't do car work online, however I should learn how to, but as I was sayin - this is what my BMW specialist Indy shop charges me. I never said the repairs I got included computers. At that point I was comparing the 740 to the 745. HUGE difference between those cars. HUGE. It was a turn in the flagship model. Really. I didn't wreck the car, I didn't replace my headlght - I was just telling you how expensive some of the parts are!!! If you think I'm trying to fake the prices or that I'm lying, which I don't know why you would do, you are mistaken. These are the real prices. To tell you the truth, the 745 differs greatly than it's previous models.

turnne
10-03-10, 01:26 PM
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Battery,-Group-Size-49H8,-800-CCA-AutoCraft-Gold_2130012-P_2916_R|GRPBATTAM2_1371817236___

$134.99 at Advance auto parts..thats US dollars.
Less than the battery I bought for my STS a couple of weeks ago

and you paid $600 for a battery you say?

..and those prices you are quoting came from an Indy shop?
Having had my 2000 740 for several and years...I am well aware of the maintenance and repair costs for both the both style I had as well as the newer one. I took my car to same BMW dealer for 5 years and it was serviced right beside the newer bodystyle...so I know what is typical issues of those cars as well as the repair and maintenance costs. The newer car was on my shopping list for a while..until I decided to downsize my budget...I talked to my service advisor consistently about the newer body style car

That being said those prices you quoted..if you paid those...I have some really bad news for you because I think you were grossly taken advantage of


Warren

what
10-03-10, 05:54 PM
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Battery,-Group-Size-49H8,-800-CCA-AutoCraft-Gold_2130012-P_2916_R|GRPBATTAM2_1371817236___

$134.99 at Advance auto parts..thats US dollars.
Less than the battery I bought for my STS a couple of weeks ago

and you paid $600 for a battery you say?

..and those prices you are quoting came from an Indy shop?
Having had my 2000 740 for several and years...I am well aware of the maintenance and repair costs for both the both style I had as well as the newer one. I took my car to same BMW dealer for 5 years and it was serviced right beside the newer bodystyle...so I know what is typical issues of those cars as well as the repair and maintenance costs. The newer car was on my shopping list for a while..until I decided to downsize my budget...I talked to my service advisor consistently about the newer body style car

That being said those prices you quoted..if you paid those...I have some really bad news for you because I think you were grossly taken advantage of


Warren

I really dont know why you're arguing with me for such a thing. You found an aftermarket, cheap battery for $135, so what. I paid $600 for my genuine BMW battery, with registeration, installation and a 6 year warranty. You do know that I've heard a couple of people who were quoted $850 at the dealer right? This is true, no lies.

KRSTS
10-03-10, 06:13 PM
I really dont know why you're arguing with me for such a thing. You found an aftermarket, cheap battery for $135, so what. I paid $600 for my genuine BMW battery, with registeration, installation and a 6 year warranty. You do know that I've heard a couple of people who were quoted $850 at the dealer right? This is true, no lies.

As P. T. Barnum said there is one born every minute;)

EChas3
10-03-10, 07:15 PM
Some dealers include a full electral system workup & re-programming of all features. $300-$400 wouldn't shock me on a high-end car. I'd bet a lot of such owners have more dollars than sense.

what
10-03-10, 11:24 PM
Some dealers include a full electral system workup & re-programming of all features. $300-$400 wouldn't shock me on a high-end car. I'd bet a lot of such owners have more dollars than sense.

exactly, thank you.

sorry to make this really long, but here are some prices and problems of a bmw 740 compared to 745-750

740: Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $810, Shocks and/or Struts $1,500, Timing Chain or Belt $415.........

Air conditioner: The air conditioning may leak and one of the hoses was being replaced whenever the vehicle was in for routine service. (1995-96)

Automatic transmission: The automatic transmission will malfunction, and eventually fail, if the wrong transmission fluid is added. (1995)

Dashboard lights: The oil warning light may come on due to a faulty oil pressure switch. (1995-96)

Headlights: The Xenon headlights may not illuminate if the switch is turned while cranking engine. (2000)

Odometer: The trip odometer resets itself after about 650 miles. (1995-98)

Oil leak: Oil and coolant leak from valley in V8 engine could be a rear main seal leaks. (1993-2001)

Paint/body: Using the jack bends the rocker panel on 740i models and the jacks were being replaced whenever the car was in for other service. (1995)

Poor transmission shift: The transmission will not shift out of third gear if there is a difference in tire sizes caused by low air pressure, mismatched tires, etc. (1997)

Power seats: The power seats fail due to wires being chafed underneath the seat. (1995-98)



745: Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $6,550, Shocks and/or Struts $1,890, Timing Chain or Belt $1,825.........

Battery: The battery may die overnight if the key is left in the ignition on vehicles with electronic immobilizer system. (2004-06)

Electrical problem: The instrument display may switch back and forth between US and metric requiring the computer to be recoded. (2002)

Electrical problem: Night vision display malfunctions due to wiring harness damage near headlights. (2006-07)

Electrical problem: Automatic headlights may not go off when exiting a tunnel or parking garage due to conflict between headlight module and rain sensor. (2005-06)

Electrical problem: The Cingular digital phone may malfunction (dropped calls, failure to receive incoming calls, etc.) requiring reprogramming of the telephone control unit. (2002)

Engine noise: Engine may ping under light load, idle high or stumble when cold requiring software update. (2005-07)

None: The universal garage door opener in the vehicle may not accept a code from a different (new transmitter or new owner) if the batteries in the transmitter are low. (2003-07)

Transmission problems: Transmission may intermittently go into fail-safe mode (and may feel strange) due to controller area network (CAN) bus system errors. (2005-06)

Valve cover leaks: The right side (cylinders 1-4) valve cover or oil filler cap on the 4.8L V8 may break in cold weather due to ice buildup in the vent hose or valve. (2004-06)

turnne
10-04-10, 08:12 AM
LOL

You are kidding with these right guy?

Again....as I stated before my local BMW dealer doesn't charge anywhere near those prices

You mentioned your $300 oil change for a 9 quart synthetic oil change
The STS V8 takes 8 quarts....so based on your numbers you will only save $9.00
So you will have a $292 oil change on your V8 STS

As for the "cheap" after market battery it has a longer warranty than the BMW factory one..it is 84 months( 7 years)

As for a complete electrical check up when they change the battery at the BMW dealer...they don't do that in the US unless you have other issues as well

Or unless you tell the dealer that you have tons of money in your wallet and don't know where to spend it

Here are some service specials from my local BMW dealer
You will note a full synthetic oil change is $79.95( 7 quarts)....add an additional two quarts for $20.00

http://www.magcars.com/specials/service.htm

My local dealer doesn't change an additional labor to put the two quarts in
So that's about $100 oil change for a 7 series
Thats a third of what you paid

And to put this in another perspective...if your car is a 2003 with those type of miles...depending on its equipment level.....sports package...convenience package etc..its worth between $14-16K
So you are saying you spent $12K in one year on it?

Ok?

By the way when you buy the STS....watch out for the dealer as well
There is likely a $292 oil change and a $400 battery for it in your future as well

Warren

what
10-04-10, 05:29 PM
LOL

You are kidding with these right guy?

Again....as I stated before my local BMW dealer doesn't charge anywhere near those prices

You mentioned your $300 oil change for a 9 quart synthetic oil change
The STS V8 takes 8 quarts....so based on your numbers you will only save $9.00
So you will have a $292 oil change on your V8 STS

As for the "cheap" after market battery it has a longer warranty than the BMW factory one..it is 84 months( 7 years)

As for a complete electrical check up when they change the battery at the BMW dealer...they don't do that in the US unless you have other issues as well

Or unless you tell the dealer that you have tons of money in your wallet and don't know where to spend it

Here are some service specials from my local BMW dealer
You will note a full synthetic oil change is $79.95( 7 quarts)....add an additional two quarts for $20.00

http://www.magcars.com/specials/service.htm

My local dealer doesn't change an additional labor to put the two quarts in
So that's about $100 oil change for a 7 series
Thats a third of what you paid

And to put this in another perspective...if your car is a 2003 with those type of miles...depending on its equipment level.....sports package...convenience package etc..its worth between $14-16K
So you are saying you spent $12K in one year on it?

Ok?

By the way when you buy the STS....watch out for the dealer as well
There is likely a $292 oil change and a $400 battery for it in your future as well

Warren

You are REALLY ignorant. I fixed the $300 to $200. 9 quarts of oil would run about $100. additional labour plus stuff comes to $200. Yes, you heard right. This is not a cadillac okay? It's not GM. It's a foreign car, therefore prices WILL vary. Your 'local dealer' may charge that for a normal ride like a 3 series. The 745 is not a 'normal ride'. And you don't know that because you never owned one. IDC about that battery, I really couldn't care less - it looks cheap to me. I'd rather stick with the genuine. My car isn't worth $14-16k, it will be at least $20k here, up to $25k, and KBB even suggests 18k. I really don't know why you are trying to dumb down the values. You are correct, I spent 11-12k on it in a year. You still have to remember that it has a sticker price of nearly $100K, so repairs and mainenance will be heavy, esp. when you approach the higher miles.

And also - don't say that if I buy an STS it's gonna be $292 for oil and $400 for battery - It's NOT. I can do this at normal indy shops whereas they wouldn't accept my bmw at these indy shops since they said 'we don't know the procedures of oil changes, battery, etc.

I really don't know what you're trying to prove, I OWN the car, you're speaking from your 'internet resources'. If you don't believe me, spare a trip to Canada and I'll show you real paper bills. It's not Canada vs US! This is everywhere. Research on the BMW 745 a little more and you'll find out. OR even better, buy one - then come back and tell me that you had oil changes done for $80. And you replaced your own battery for $100.

turnne
10-04-10, 07:18 PM
No
Actually you are really ignorant if you
1. Actually paid those prices
2. Think your car is worth 18K...not in the US anyway

In fact in what you spent on repiars plus what you spent on the car..you could have been driving a brand new one..monthly payment wise...they come with a 4 year/50K maintenance free period

By the way youou seemed to have changed your mind a few times

first you said the oil change was $300 now you say its $200
then you say you took your car to an independent...then your last post said you took it to the dealer

And yes..I know very well what the maintenance on my old 740 and as well a 2003 745 would cost in the United States...
I went to the same dealer for 5 years...in fact I have a very good idea about the cost and maintenance of any BMW from the time period of 2000 to 2007

As for the sticker of nearly 100K..perhaps that was Canada
In the US a 7 of that year was mid high 70's to mid 80's....and lets remember that was sticker
My STS had a sticker of $67,200
That has no relevance on today as to what either car is worth...and I assure you neither car sold anywhere near its retail sticker
At least in the US anyway

If you are REALLY paying those prices you mentioned...
What makes you think you are not going to be paying some exorbitant prices for STS service...since you clearly pay well above what anyone in the US pays for BMW service at the dealer?

And I am not trying to prove anything
The prices I quoted for car values and service prices are available to anyone who checks them out in the United States....the $$ speak for themselves
Nothing made up....just the facts..That is the reason I attached the links to the prices

But like mentioned earlier in the thread..if you want to pay those prices..."there is one born every minute"

By the way I would more than happy to send you the name and contact information of the service adviser that I used for 5 years at Midwestern BMW in Columbus Ohio....call him and check the figures I mentioned

My figures is accurate...no BS

Warren

TobyJohnson11
10-04-10, 07:19 PM
From the bottom of my heart - thank you. your CPO buy-in went 100%+ to cover my CPO pay-outs. My CPO has covered over $5,000 in repairs in just over 1.5 years.

headlight assembly - $800 part + install
steering wheel (heater died)
water pump (minor coolant leak)
Rack & Pinion replaced
oil manifold replaced (included A/C refill)
ECM replaced, after trying camshaft sensor & camshaft wire harness


The last item - a week long extravaganza - showed a $3,000 cost billed to CPO.

I love this car, it's a joy to drive. But it is chock full of electronics that are difficult to troublshoot (see last item, where they finally replaced the computer throwing all the codes!) and expensive to fix.

How did you get the headlights replaced under warranty?

Thanks. TJ

pjbizjak
10-04-10, 09:05 PM
FIRST THING, Buy a 'certified' STS! 6 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty(from in service date). These cars get pretty expensive for repairs after the factory warranty runs out. I've had a 1993, a 2000 and now a 2007 STS and all have been 'certified'. My out-of-pocket expenses, all toll, has been less than $500.

what
10-04-10, 09:21 PM
Warren - you have mentioned that I changed my price from $300 to $200 several times nw. Give it up, you have no new content. I already explained the reason - that was inclding some other check ups and etc. I have a BMW specialist Indy shop. I go to them AND the dealer, because sometimes I like to compare prices, and sometimes I want the better service. Anyways, why does that even freakin matter? What good would I get in lying to you? God. You say the sticker price doesn't matter???????? Well let me tell you this: A Honda civic, sticker price $20k - is this gonna cost the same or similar to maintain even after 8 years? Yes. A BMW 7 series, sticker price 90-100k, is the maintenances/repairs cost the same after 8 years - yes. Is the BMW more EXPENSIVE in maintaining than the honda? Obviously! If I had a BMW with a sticker price of $30k, do you think the maintenance is gonna cost as much as a 7 series' would? Thus they priced it lower, in terms of affordability. I think you can answer this question on your own. Therefore, you are wrong, sticker price OBVIOUSLY matters when looking at a 6 figure car - the maintenance and parts/repairs WILL be expensive, no matter how much time you give it.

And also - don't quote prices about the oil changes on the STS. A Caddy is not a BMW. Simple as that. The STS will be a LOT cheaper to maintain than my BMW, I assure you that 100%, write it in paper get my signature i really don't care. I just know it. It's a GM car - the same company who makes chevys, pontiacs, saturn, GMC. Parts are not expensive, maintainence also not. Maybe your dealer in particular tells you either false info or really charges you less, but this is BMW...it's not cheap.

Before you reply, let me just say this. I PAID THESE PRICES, HAD THESE PROBLEMS. If you wanna say I got ripped off, I don't really care, I saw the labour that went into it and parts, and I HAVE the extra cash to put into it. I used a daily driver (GL550) and I still use it, but will be giving it up to the wife and buying a nice little caddy for myself. I would usually buy it new but I plan on driving it for ~2 years, and buying a brand new 2012 or 2013 BMW 7 series. I just don't wanna go back to back in 7 series - A break would be nice, and also a change. You feelin' me bro? No harsh meanings, I hope we get along. It's okay and I'm truly sorry if I have disturbed you, I won't be staying too long anyway.

turnne
10-05-10, 02:42 PM
Well....then I chalk it up to parts and service being 2-3x more expensive in Canada

wow...I am certainly glad I live in the US

If you read my message I cited the pricing on a STS oil change as well attached a link to my local BMW dealer ...the one I went to for 5 years

http://www.midwesternbmw.com/index.htm?s_it=comsearch40t&q=midwestern+bmw+colubus+ohio

if you don't believe the pricing I posted or want to verify that BMW pricing in the US is less than 1/2 of what you paid...call the dealer at the above BMW dealer...ask for Doug in the service department
They serviced my last BMW for 5 years

and FYI...I have had 3 Mercedes and 2 BMW's before I bought either of the STS's I owned

Even a Mercedes S class doesn't have the prices to repair you mentioned...in the US...and the S class is 15-20K ( sticker wise) more expensive than a 7 series

My comment about the STS was...if pricing for servicing a 7 are that much different in Canada than here...and based on what you paid they are at least twice the price

Then its likely not a good idea to come to this forum and expect the pricing guidelines used here for STS maintenance as any type of litmus test in your market
As it sounds like pricing in your market is at least 2-3x the pricing it is in the US
That, to me...should be consistent with any model car that you choose
Civic or STS


Warren

trackbait
10-05-10, 06:00 PM
Do Moderators ever watch these threads? This should have been closed pages ago. This isn't about an STS....It's about arguing over cost of ownership for a Beemer. **GEESH**

I'll only add to the lunacy by saying if you paid $800 for a car battery, I would love to have your addess and phone number as I have some GREAT Waterfront Property deals for you, or maybe some quality jewlery for the "Mrs"

HAHA

MacMuse
10-06-10, 05:57 PM
How did you get the headlights replaced under warranty?

Thanks. TJ

Ya know, I think the headlight may have been under original warranty and not CPO. Generally speaking, if you can demonstrate water vapor covering at least 25% of the inside of the assembly they may replace it for you.

EChas3
10-06-10, 11:56 PM
Forum members have met with success using the magic words 'Excessive Moisture'. Original manufacturers warranty and CPO are the same.

turnne
10-07-10, 06:14 PM
Do Moderators ever watch these threads? This should have been closed pages ago. This isn't about an STS....It's about arguing over cost of ownership for a Beemer. **GEESH**

I'll only add to the lunacy by saying if you paid $800 for a car battery, I would love to have your addess and phone number as I have some GREAT Waterfront Property deals for you, or maybe some quality jewlery for the "Mrs"

HAHA

There are actually several threads here that have little or nothing to do with an STS...some start that way and change into something else
If the moderator chooses to close every thread that gets off topic then he/she will be a very busy individual...
But then there is also the option to have the choice not to read what you don't want to....

On the other hand... I agree with you on the $800 battery...and that was my basis for comment as to how "suspect" that and some other factors were

Hopefully no one took those figures as gospel on any BMW repair


Warren

doowap57
10-07-10, 06:27 PM
DO NOT PURCHASE ONE WITHOUT A WARRANTY, at least up to 75K miles,
or longer if possible. You may have some problems, but at least it WILL be covered under warranty !:usflag::usflag:

ted tcb
10-07-10, 08:32 PM
Do Moderators ever watch these threads? This should have been closed pages ago. This isn't about an STS....It's about arguing over cost of ownership for a Beemer. **GEESH**


Actually, I for one am glad that this thread was allowed to continue, and as of last month, I don't even
own an STS anymore.
Why .... because I always enjoyed reading anything Warren wrote on the FWD STS section.
He has an amazing grasp on the used car market, and seems to know what constitutes a great used
purchase, and when its time to cut the car loose and search for another.
I just dumped a pristine 85k 2003 STS with factory Nav for about $7500CDN.
Magnaride went to soft mode, and the car wasn't worth $4k in shocks. Warren had similar issues with his old car.

To be fair to Warren, he stepped above the name calling and simply questioned unbelievable service costs.
If the other poster actually paid $800 for a battery, then it was the service upsell of the century.

In our current Toronto market, the posters' 2003 745 with 80000 miles would be worth about $18-19k retail,
or about $14-15 wholesale; $25CDN is unrealistic, except perhaps in the world of $800 batteries.

KRSTS
10-07-10, 09:00 PM
Actually, I for one am glad that this thread was allowed to continue, and as of last month, I don't even
own an STS anymore.
Why .... because I always enjoyed reading anything Warren wrote on the FWD STS section.
He has an amazing grasp on the used car market, and seems to know what constitutes a great used
purchase, and when its time to cut the car loose and search for another.
I just dumped a pristine 85k 2003 STS with factory Nav for about $7500CDN.
Magnaride went to soft mode, and the car wasn't worth $4k in shocks. Warren had similar issues with his old car.

To be fair to Warren, he stepped above the name calling and simply questioned unbelievable service costs.
If the other poster actually paid $800 for a battery, then it was the service upsell of the century.

In our current Toronto market, the posters' 2003 745 with 80000 miles would be worth about $18-19k retail,
or about $14-15 wholesale; $25CDN is unrealistic, except perhaps in the world of $800 batteries.

Very well put. Cudos

turnne
10-08-10, 09:28 AM
Actually, I for one am glad that this thread was allowed to continue, and as of last month, I don't even
own an STS anymore.
Why .... because I always enjoyed reading anything Warren wrote on the FWD STS section.
He has an amazing grasp on the used car market, and seems to know what constitutes a great used
purchase, and when its time to cut the car loose and search for another.
I just dumped a pristine 85k 2003 STS with factory Nav for about $7500CDN.
Magnaride went to soft mode, and the car wasn't worth $4k in shocks. Warren had similar issues with his old car.

To be fair to Warren, he stepped above the name calling and simply questioned unbelievable service costs.
If the other poster actually paid $800 for a battery, then it was the service upsell of the century.

In our current Toronto market, the posters' 2003 745 with 80000 miles would be worth about $18-19k retail,
or about $14-15 wholesale; $25CDN is unrealistic, except perhaps in the world of $800 batteries.

Actually I got rid of my 02 STS before the shocks went...it had 125K...and I thought I would be playing with fire to have kept it much longer
I got the car for a heck of a price and I thought it was time to keep my spend on it low...as you know the shock replacement would have been as much as the car was worth. Pouring that amount of money into that car..to me...would have not made sense and likely something that I could have never recovered as something else would have likely gone wrong before I could "drive my money's worth" out of the new Mag ride shocks
What makes sense would have been to retrofit some standard shocks as some have done with the older ISS equipped cars.
Though I am not sure this can be done with the Mag ride set up?
Anyway
Luxury GM sedans,as I have mentioned before, are an incredible value on the used car market
I have purchased all of them...the 02 V8 Aurora..the 02 STS and the 05 STS all for less than 1/3 of their original stickers....actually the Aurora and 02 STS were less than 1/4 of the original stickers
That being said...these are not family members...and you have to know when you let go ..or that bargain car can quickly not be a bargain

In regard to the BMW..my point in stating the facts..at least US wise, was to state the facts so that no one would have a stereotype about those cars and what it takes to repair them
Stereotypes of any kind are bogus
I really believe that in this day and age any car of the same level of complexity is going to be about the same in repair and maintenance
So..yes a STS would likely be more comparable to a 5 series not a 7 in repair and maintenance...but still nothing at the BMW shop on a 7 compares to some of those prices that were posted in this thread

Autos can be very different to buy...especially on the used car market, price wise
But...rest assured there is no free lunch in the repair shop

As I mentioned before in this thread...a 2003 745 with those miles is $14-16K depending on equipment and condition...wholesale would be $12-14K......one with lower miles...say under 50K would be worth significantly more


Warren

what
10-10-10, 12:37 AM
actually, i didnt purchase the battery for $800...
I purchased it for $550 + tax, so $600.

i don't know why 2 people said that.
$600 is totally realistic when working on high end cars, including labour, battery, registeration, warranty, etc.

prices i posted are totally realistic. $200+ for an oil change is nothing unusual. my car would easily go for $20k in Canada.

turnne
10-10-10, 02:12 PM
actually, i didnt purchase the battery for $800...
I purchased it for $550 + tax, so $600.

i don't know why 2 people said that.
$600 is totally realistic when working on high end cars, including labour, battery, registeration, warranty, etc.

prices i posted are totally realistic. $200+ for an oil change is nothing unusual. my car would easily go for $20k in Canada.

$600 for a battery?
What type of registration and warranty etc did you pay for with this new battery?

You don't pay extra for either of those in the United States

If your car would easily go for $20K in Canada...then those cars bring significantly higher prices than than they do in the US( assuming the current US/Canadian dollar exchange rates)

If you came in the US you would be looking at $14-16K

Oil changes( for a BMW 745) are also about half of the $200 you mentioned in the United States

Based on the $12K you said you have spent this year on your car and what it is currently worth....ie...what you have invested in it

Why would you want to get rid of it now?...seems to me you need to put a few years of trouble free service on it just to try to recoup some of the money spent

If that is even possible

And to that end...based on the prices you are quoting you have paid on the BMW...the STS is going to cost you $175 for an oil change and $450 for a battery...plus the $35K( or more based on the "higher" Canadian prices/values you quote) for one that is 3 years old
Are you sure its something you want to do after spending $12K on the BMW this year...or about $1200 a month ...that you have invested to keep the BMW on the road

Question

are the values really that different...lower..in the United States?
I would imagine the Canadians would be running across the border to buy used cars


Warren

KRSTS
10-10-10, 05:26 PM
actually, i didnt purchase the battery for $800...
I purchased it for $550 + tax, so $600.

i don't know why 2 people said that.
$600 is totally realistic when working on high end cars, including labour, battery, registeration, warranty, etc.

prices i posted are totally realistic. $200+ for an oil change is nothing unusual. my car would easily go for $20k in Canada.


$600 is totally unrealistic for any battery for any car. Anyone in their right mind would not pay more than $200 for a high end battery installed!

EChas3
10-10-10, 07:00 PM
^^^ I guess that's the whole point.

what
10-10-10, 09:56 PM
no way...a battery replacement is never under $450 in a beamer 745, unless you do it yourself.

Jesda
10-10-10, 11:12 PM
Its not really relevant what 'What' paid to service his 7-series. I owned an Infiniti Q45 with a pile of receipts from an Infiniti dealer that showed the previous owner spending as much as 'What' spent on his BMW. It is believable and within expectations for expensive dealer service.


The original question was about purchasing advice for a used STS.

RippyPartsDept
10-11-10, 12:21 AM
i say buy the STS and don't look back

turnne
10-11-10, 08:00 AM
no way...a battery replacement is never under $450 in a beamer 745, unless you do it yourself.

what dealer in the United States is charging those prices?

I will tell you at either Classic BMW is Dallas Texas or Midwestern Auto group BMW in Columbus Ohio....the battery replacement is not anywhere close to that


Warren

turnne
10-11-10, 08:09 AM
Its not really relevant what 'What' paid to service his 7-series. I owned an Infiniti Q45 with a pile of receipts from an Infiniti dealer that showed the previous owner spending as much as 'What' spent on his BMW. It is believable and within expectations for expensive dealer service.


The original question was about purchasing advice for a used STS.


wow...12K on an Infiniti Q45?
Those have had stellar repair histories

was there any engine or transmission work involved in that?

To your other point ..to me..its relevant what was paid for the car..or better said what the car is worth in thinking about what is being put into it

But I understand others have different views...recently at the Cadillac dealer I saw someone having a new Northstar engine installed due to a failed head gasket..in a 99 Deville
That had to cost thousands more than the car was worth...but I guess the owner was willing to pay it
For me..I would have either found a used engine or likely called it junkyard time for the car

My statements about cost ..in regard to a STS...was that is What was paying those prices for his BMW..then relatively speaking..he could not realistically expect a great difference in pricing for the STS repairs/maintenance

I am basing this on the fact that I know what it costs to service a 745 at a BMW dealer in the US....at least in Texas or Ohio

Warren

what
10-11-10, 09:58 AM
wow...12K on an Infiniti Q45?
Those have had stellar repair histories

was there any engine or transmission work involved in that?

To your other point ..to me..its relevant what was paid for the car..or better said what the car is worth in thinking about what is being put into it

But I understand others have different views...recently at the Cadillac dealer I saw someone having a new Northstar engine installed due to a failed head gasket..in a 99 Deville
That had to cost thousands more than the car was worth...but I guess the owner was willing to pay it
For me..I would have either found a used engine or likely called it junkyard time for the car

My statements about cost ..in regard to a STS...was that is What was paying those prices for his BMW..then relatively speaking..he could not realistically expect a great difference in pricing for the STS repairs/maintenance

I am basing this on the fact that I know what it costs to service a 745 at a BMW dealer in the US....at least in Texas or Ohio

Warren

okay man..for your pleasure, quotes from 7 owners themselves:

$450
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4544652&postcount=31

$520
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4544377&postcount=30

$425
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4634004&postcount=3


Now you tell me...a couple of these are from the US..are YOU right or these people right? Do YOU own a 745 or they? You still think I'm bullshittin'?
The STS will not cost as much as my 745 did, they're different cars. One is very unreliable, the other comes with quite a bit of reliability as I've heard from reviews.

turnne
10-11-10, 10:44 AM
okay man..for your pleasure, quotes from 7 owners themselves:

$450
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4544652&postcount=31

$520
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4544377&postcount=30

$425
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4634004&postcount=3


Now you tell me...a couple of these are from the US..are YOU right or these people right? Do YOU own a 745 or they? You still think I'm bullshittin'?
The STS will not cost as much as my 745 did, they're different cars. One is very unreliable, the other comes with quite a bit of reliability as I've heard from reviews.

Here is a quote from the same BMW forum

" 03 745 Li battery change
Had my friendly garage owner attached fully powered jump start cables ( positive and negative) to the terminals under the hood - right near front passenger seat; the trunk was then opened and the new battery ( Autozone $ 160 after $ 12 refund for old battery) substituted for the old nearly dead one. I drove it for 1.5 hours; stopped and restarted 3-4 times. Works like a watch-no problems.

The key is to make sure the car's computer systems never loose power even for a second.Any power source even a second new battery attached to the jumper points will do the same.

The garage chared $ 30 - total cost of $ 190"



Please note the total cost price

Any dealer will be more than happy to take as much money as you care to give them

You sound like a very good customer

As far as the STS relaibility goes...you might need to read more detail in this forum...especially based on the habits you have established in getting your car serviced
As mentioned before...a warranty is a beautiful thing

Based on your habits I would HIGHLY reccommnd you buy your STS with a very long compehesive warranty

Even if it means you pay well above retail....sounds to me like you will still be ahead of the game with the service charges you will incur


Warren

ted tcb
10-11-10, 11:25 AM
Back to Canadian prices, I quoted $18 to $19k for a 2003 745 retail in Toronto.
Take up to $5k off those prices for wholesale.
Most if not all of these cars are now found on small independant lots ... far too old for a dealership's inventory.

Here is a typical sampling up here.

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/745I/TORONTO/Ontario/5_8935221_ON20080128102251203/

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/745LI/TORONTO/Ontario/5_6651774_ON20080409114506664/

Take off perhaps 5% for our currency.

I check Ebay's sold history on LS430's and STS' quite often, and compare
the sold prices to our market .... not much, if any difference, in the value of
premium used cars.

05awdupstater
10-11-10, 12:23 PM
I have to believe that author of this post is toying with you guys. He just wants to see how long he can keep it going, you know like 6 years, the same as his battery warranty.

what
10-11-10, 01:41 PM
I'm toying you guys? Wow. I can't believe such a small thing has gone to such an extreme extent. You think I'm lying? I showed you guys 3 proofs. IF you dont believe me come up in Canada and check for yourselves...

KRSTS
10-11-10, 02:07 PM
I stand by my assessment of $600 batteries:alchi::bouncy::bouncy:

EChas3
10-11-10, 09:17 PM
But I understand others have different views...recently at the Cadillac dealer I saw someone having a new Northstar engine installed due to a failed head gasket..in a 99 Deville
That had to cost thousands more than the car was worth...but I guess the owner was willing to pay it
For me..I would have either found a used engine or likely called it junkyard time for the car.

Warren

I see both sides but a good car is more than just transportation.. To me a car is more than another replaceable machine. Even though I don't customize a car as much as I used to, the cars I buy don't need as much to make me happy with them.

I get used to a car. I know the controls and can predict the handling and shift-points. If I can fix a car that's in otherwise good condition for about the cost and hassle of trading, I'll do it. It takes time and effort to fix someone elses problems.

To be strictly dollars and cents seems mercenary to me. A car is a statement. I like driving a car made by an American company. There aren't many cars I like. I love driving my STS.

KRSTS
10-11-10, 10:48 PM
I see both sides but a good car is more than just transportation.. To me a car is more than another replaceable machine. Even though I don't customize a car as much as I used to, the cars I buy don't need as much to make me happy with them.

I get used to a car. I know the controls and can predict the handling and shift-points. If I can fix a car that's in otherwise good condition for about the cost and hassle of trading, I'll do it. It takes time and effort to fix someone elses problems.

To be strictly dollars and cents seems mercenary to me. A car is a statement. I like driving a car made by an American company. There aren't many cars I like. I love driving my STS.

Right on. After awhile when your driving the right car, it should become an extension of yourself. I also love my STS.

Jesda
10-12-10, 03:21 AM
wow...12K on an Infiniti Q45?
Those have had stellar repair histories

was there any engine or transmission work involved in that?


Yeah, that included a tranny rebuild before 100k. Both of the first-generation Q45s I owned unfortunately had transmission rebuilds or replacements within 3-4 years of the manufacturing date. Cooling was insufficient until it was updated in 1994. After that, it was fuel system issues and all kinds of wear and tear. The engine itself was rock solid.

If you reduce your choice of transportation to pure numbers, the most cost-efficient choice might be:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/161723643_3c07b53520.jpg

EChas3
10-12-10, 11:50 PM
And the Greyhound is a dog of a way to get around.

Live it up.

turnne
10-13-10, 08:27 PM
I see both sides but a good car is more than just transportation.. To me a car is more than another replaceable machine. Even though I don't customize a car as much as I used to, the cars I buy don't need as much to make me happy with them.

I get used to a car. I know the controls and can predict the handling and shift-points. If I can fix a car that's in otherwise good condition for about the cost and hassle of trading, I'll do it. It takes time and effort to fix someone elses problems.

To be strictly dollars and cents seems mercenary to me. A car is a statement. I like driving a car made by an American company. There aren't many cars I like. I love driving my STS.

I agree with you ...there are not many cars I like as well.....Mercedes happens to be my favorite...however as mentioned before my budget , this time, could not accommodate a Mercedes

That being said....even if I was driving a Mercedes....I could not bring myself to pour more money into the car that it was worth

Hopefully..I could do one of two things....band aid it with another option that worked fine......those that have put the passive suspensions in the pre Mag ride Cadillacs are a perfect example of that... or those that have put used engines in Northstars cars that have had head gasket issues is another example....
Or the 2nd option... call it a day and buy another newer car with a warranty

Either way..pouring a lot of money into a car that is not worth much is something I can't do
Such as the person that put the new engine in the 99 Deville at my local dealer..or the few that have actually replaced their active suspensions with factory units........just not something I could do
And really that doesn't matter what I drove

As you know these used Cadillacs don't hold value well...and I expect that as soon as the current STS bodystyle is done there will be quite another market adjustment...as there was with the older bodystyle

As I told the salesman that sold me the 2005......"I expect that the car I buy today will be worth the same as the 02 is currently... when it is the same age and mileage"

All things point to me being right


Warren

turnne
10-13-10, 08:37 PM
Yeah, that included a tranny rebuild before 100k. Both of the first-generation Q45s I owned unfortunately had transmission rebuilds or replacements within 3-4 years of the manufacturing date. Cooling was insufficient until it was updated in 1994. After that, it was fuel system issues and all kinds of wear and tear. The engine itself was rock solid.

If you reduce your choice of transportation to pure numbers, the most cost-efficient choice might be:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/161723643_3c07b53520.jpg



That is completely not true...you can have some pretty good numbers and have the convenience of having your own transportattion

But...you have somewhat of the right idea...you have to consider repairs and depreciation

My stepfather for instance...has a 1998 Landcruiser with 265K
Nothing has ever broken...just routine maintenance......they also have a 2003 Corolla with 180K...same thing..its never broken

By the way he is a retired GM employee who drove Cadillacs for years
He says he never kept one of the Caddy;s for that many miles because of the repairs that transpired before those type of miles were achieved

As I was looking up the current market values...for him..the other day..I was amazed
His cost for both vehicles...... Initial acquisition costs minus total repair costs-lost value divided by total miles driven...
WOW.....both vehicles have not been expensive to own at all!!

and by the way..how much did you invest in the repairs of these Q45s?

I find your story interesting as I have never heard any issues with those cars like that....I guess Lexus did really have the leg up...on everybody..in the luxury class for that time period....those 90's era LS cars don't seem to break..ever..LOL
They are everywhere on the road with over 200K and are still worth a few $$....Amazing


Warren

KRSTS
10-13-10, 10:52 PM
Yeah but the styling is so booooring:halo:

Jesda
10-13-10, 11:56 PM
Well, with Lexus is wasn't that they were necessarily that much more reliable, its that the owners tended to be wealthier and more conservative. Performance and handling easily favor the Q45, and cars that are meant for more spirited driving tend to show it in their repair costs.

The typical Lexus driver hangs out in the center lane with cruise set at 60. The Q45 (at least, early on) was aimed more at the typical BMW owner.

EChas3
10-14-10, 11:58 PM
Jesda's getting it. A touring car isn't going to get used like a sport sedan. It's no fun to drive a 'floater' into a turn at speed. People who buy them don't plan to drive that way.

Conversely, a car that performs well encourages performance driving. Parts used harder wear out faster. People that buy these, do drive that way.

Ain't it fun?

turnne
10-15-10, 10:36 AM
Well, with Lexus is wasn't that they were necessarily that much more reliable, its that the owners tended to be wealthier and more conservative. Performance and handling easily favor the Q45, and cars that are meant for more spirited driving tend to show it in their repair costs.

The typical Lexus driver hangs out in the center lane with cruise set at 60. The Q45 (at least, early on) was aimed more at the typical BMW owner.

I agree with some of what you say...ie...the Infiniti was aimed at( and still is) at the BMW buyer
However...if that "conservative..hang out in the center lane" deal was true it would seems that those Cadillac's from the 90's would also have the same term of logevity
what was the age of the average Deville( and current DTS buyer) ..like early 60's?
Do you think that person was driving their Caddy like a BMW?


Warren

turnne
10-15-10, 10:38 AM
Jesda's getting it. A touring car isn't going to get used like a sport sedan. It's no fun to drive a 'floater' into a turn at speed. People who buy them don't plan to drive that way.

Conversely, a car that performs well encourages performance driving. Parts used harder wear out faster. People that buy these, do drive that way.

Ain't it fun?

and that is all the germans have ever put out
So..if that theory is true...the german cars should "always" break faster right?

Warren

turnne
10-15-10, 10:45 AM
Yeah but the styling is so booooring:halo:

I find some of them..the GS specifically ,to be a nice looking car....the interior finsh and the way the materials "feel" ..to me is top notch
However...I have not been a fan of the way they drive. They retain value to the point where they cost as much as the german cars do in the used car market
And there is NO WAY I am paying german car prices for a non-german car...to me the germans simply drive so much better than anything else...though I think Infiniti is definitely "whispering" in a german accent based on my test drives of the M last year


Warren

05awdupstater
10-15-10, 11:42 AM
Just wondering if the OP ever bought a used Caddy?

My 07 STS V6,awd, navi, sunroof, luxury pkg is still for sale. I do not think it needs anything, not even a battery.

what
10-16-10, 01:52 AM
nope, still haven't.

your car seems perfect. where & how much have you listed it for?

Jesda
10-16-10, 07:15 AM
I agree with some of what you say...ie...the Infiniti was aimed at( and still is) at the BMW buyer
However...if that "conservative..hang out in the center lane" deal was true it would seems that those Cadillac's from the 90's would also have the same term of logevity
what was the age of the average Deville( and current DTS buyer) ..like early 60's?
Do you think that person was driving their Caddy like a BMW?


Warren

One thing I've noticed with Cadillacs owned by older folks is that they get traded for new ones every two to three years. Perhaps, in the mind of the distinguished octogenarian, a car with 50k on the clock is halfway through it's usable life. Subsequent owners seem to be less careful, and the annoying problems that come with the north star don't help.

By and large, most of the German cars purchased by Americans have been conservative MB sedans. Their owners tended to be meticulous. And the BMW 3-series is unusually capable of handling abuse. The 7-series... Not so much.

turnne
10-16-10, 06:33 PM
One thing I've noticed with Cadillacs owned by older folks is that they get traded for new ones every two to three years. Perhaps, in the mind of the distinguished octogenarian, a car with 50k on the clock is halfway through it's usable life. Subsequent owners seem to be less careful, and the annoying problems that come with the north star don't help.

By and large, most of the German cars purchased by Americans have been conservative MB sedans. Their owners tended to be meticulous. And the BMW 3-series is unusually capable of handling abuse. The 7-series... Not so much.

Your market must be different than the one I live in. Here, those older folks keep those Cadillacs for much longer than 2-3 years. In fact there are several in my neighborhood that are 7-10 years old with like 20K miles on them

In my area the Cadillac dealers have a used car lot full of 2-3 year old lease returns...one that seems to ebb and flow with whatever lease "deal" that GM had going on at the time they were originally delivered

I think you are right with the 2nd( and subsequesnt) owners not taking care of these cars.....I am sure the low resale has everything to do with that. It makes the car fairly inexpensive to buy...but no matter how low the price is the maintenance is that of a luxury car

Mercedes buyers are the most particular...and I think their dealers offer the best service overall...and typically charge for it as well ...though I have never owned a Lexus and can't speak for the service at their dealers

I don't think the 7 is an less abuse adverse than the 3 series....there is just a low more going on in the 7 that could have issues
If you look at the systems they actually share I doubt you would see much difference

BMW has actually sold more cars than Mercedes for several years now..though I think Mercedes just passed them this year
Lexus sells more cars than either of them


Warren

ted tcb
10-16-10, 06:55 PM
I agree with some of what Jesda says .... a touring car will likely be driven on the hwy at gentle speeds,
compared to a high performance sedan.

However, that's where it stops for me.

Most old Lexus LS400's are now owned by 3rd or 4th owners, given a minimum of maintenance, and
driven stop and go around town. Basically ,they've become solid, cheap beaters.
Its pretty rare for a luxury sedan to end up being as dependable as a Corolla.
Front end components are a weak spot on the LS400's, HVAC and stereo displays blacken, power steering
pumps go, and not much else.

I don't care how easily you drive an early nineties 7 series BMW or Q, they will not survive daily
beater status like an LS does.

Like Warren, I anticipate the depreciation curve on the current STS will allow me to buy one cheaply in the
near future.

EChas3
10-16-10, 10:26 PM
The STS is a lot of fun to drive. It will be hard to part with mine until well after the time is ripe.

Jesda
10-17-10, 07:31 AM
I don't care how easily you drive an early nineties 7 series BMW or Q, they will not survive daily beater status like an LS does.

The authority on this subject is T3 automotive in Marietta GA. They specialize in servicing older Infinitis and Lexuses, particularly the Q45 and LS400. The first-generation LS400's lower power output, softer suspension, and lower weight put less mechanical stress on the vehicle -- compromises chosen by Toyota's engineers to favor comfort and longevity, a reaction perhaps to some of the unreliable Cadillacs that came out of the 1980s.

These same design and engineering compromises made the second-generation 1997 Q45 equally if not more dependable but dramatically changed the character of the car to be something of a Lexus copycat. Sales went from mediocre to terrible. My guess is that people decided that if they were going to buy a Lexus, they'd skip the knockoff and buy the real thing, and people who enjoyed their first-generation Q45s didn't like the generation that followed and bought BMWs instead.

Past abuse also accounts for a lot after a decade or more of driving.

The higher reliability of the LS400 versus its class competitors is real and statistically proven, but its exaggerated like a Paul Bunyan folk story. The unfortunate result of this is that people without the means to pay for more expensive parts and service end up buying used examples thinking they'll endure the same level of abuse as the 5-speed Corolla they traded in at the buy-here-pay-here lot.

I get a lot of phone calls from owners of old, well-aged, and well-worn Q45s who are at the end of their rope, needing it to just start and run to get them to their job(s). Recently, one guy I spoke to was in the Atlanta area, so I sent him to T3 in Marietta and they pulled parts from a salvaged car they had on the lot and took care of him for cheap. Not everyone has the privilege of a low-cost specialist, unfortunately.

I advised him to try and get rid of the car and pick up something less complicated with a service history. And I made sure to steer him away from luxury brands. A "beater" LS400 would have the same hazards and complexities.

Luxury cars break more than others -- sometimes its an accessory you can do without, and other times its a problem thats expensive or difficult to diagnose. And when people stretch their $3000 budgets without a buffer of cash for repairs, these beautiful cars quickly turn into yard decorations.

I've seen it happen too many times. The salesman talks up the old Lexus on his lot that came from the dealer auction like its some kind of legendary piece of machinery, and the new owner (usually the fifth or sixth owner) ends up buried in a mess of trouble. Folklore quickly confronts reality.

Published reliability surveys tend to reflect no more than the first five years of ownership. Once a luxury car hits neglected beater status, its a foot from the grave as the repairs will quickly exceed the value of the car. We've seen it happen here quite frequently with Sevilles. And it does happen, though much, much less frequently, with Lexuses. Things do break, and unless its a 4-cylinder FWD economy car or small pickup truck from Japan, things break expensively.

I wouldn't suggest an old full size Lexus, MB, Infiniti, BMW, or Cadillac to any layperson without a pile of cash tucked away. Of course, they could look for parts online, seek advice from forums like this, and fix it themselves, but then they wouldn't be automotive laypeople anymore. They'd be us. :D

My stepdad has a 2004 LX470 with 300,000 miles. Its mostly local highway miles, and he's the original owner. Its been almost flawless (steering lock got stuck a couple times, had to call a tow, and some minor power accessories stopped working, nothing serious). Unfortunately, he won't be replacing it with another Lexus. The interior quality and ergonomics have declined greatly on the new LX570, and he finds the styling to be offensively ugly, as do I. The original LX450 and LX470 were conservative, distinctive, and tasteful, while the 570 begs for attention like a prostitute. So that's it. After spending the past decade putting half a million miles on well-made Lexus products, he's done.

He's actually considering a new Escalade, and he typically refuses to buy American. Conversely, the Escalade has exchanged its porngraphic looks for a more upscale appearance inside and out.

Mom's GX470 is perfectly dependable but poorly packaged, and she won't be buying another either. The Mark Levinson stereo is a joke, the interior quarters are cramped, and the side-opening rear hatch is a terrible design. The only thing she gained over the Acura MDX she traded was a V8, a feature she specifically sought out and now regrets.

It seems like the Lexus brand abandoned some of the core values that made it famous in the 90s and instead of passionately pursuing perfection, they've chased their tail. I guess when you're #1, there's no where left to go but down.




This thread is officially derailed. :D Hopefully the thread starter checked out the sticky FAQ. :)

[Sorry about the wall of text. I've been working on computer issues for the past 24 hours and finally got it working, so I'm eager to type on something other than my iPad or Blackberry.]

ted tcb
10-17-10, 08:05 PM
Nice post, Jesda, although I feel somewhat guilty at contributing to the derailing of this thread.

I think any enthusiast who has purchased multiple used vehicles understands that brand marque
means nothing when purchasing used. All bets are off, and the only thing that matters is service
history.
Having said that, I would rather buy a cherry LS400 over a pristine Q if I had limited funds for repair,
but wanted all the toys.
I still look for a low mileage, dealer maintained, 1 owner LS400.
I owned one, and never should've sold it!
The used LS' that come from corner lots with unknown service records are money pits, relying on
urban myth status. Its harder and harder to find real private owner sales on Ebay or CL.

I agree, the smartest purchase would a cheap, clean Sunfire or Cavalier.
Parts are plentiful and cheap, and there's not too many features that could break.

Jesda
10-17-10, 10:28 PM
I agree that when you look past personal preferences like styling and driving feel, the LS comes away as the car with more longevity. But, even after giving the LS a chance and taking one home for a couple months, it didn't offer enough driving satisfaction, although the Nakamichi sound system and the spring-supported seats were really, really nice. I've never heard treble in a car sound so sweet.

But I should probably get a C5 Corvette convertible and call it done. :D

05awdupstater
10-18-10, 10:43 AM
nope, still haven't.

your car seems perfect. where & how much have you listed it for?

Sent you a private message.

02603sec
12-22-10, 10:46 AM
quick checklist for used STS.

1. Paint work on the bumper covers
2. Water damage
3. Headlight seals
4. Maintenance records
5. Condition of the Drivers front seat, pedals and carpet
6. Original battery is a Delco 650amp (they don't last)
7. TWO key fobs
8. Is the windshield and front paint sandblasted from road debris?
9. Look for rust on the components, - door latches, trunk handle, electrical sockets
10. Make sure all the plastic fasteners are there and not missing under the hood.
11. Wheels should be perfect.
12. Navigation must come with a disc. or it's useless
13. Test the bluetooth connection
14. Test the IPOD connection
15 are the WIPER Blades new?
16 are the tires new?