: America's $30K M3 rival! Mustang 5.0.



93DevilleUSMC
08-27-10, 08:45 PM
The results of the following comparison are as shocking, as close, and as likely to be heatedly debated as the first fight between Apollo Creed (the M3), and Rocky Balboa (Mustang 5.0).

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comp arison/index.html

Destroyer
08-27-10, 09:39 PM
That video caught me by surprise. Go Mustang! :thumbsup:

Rolex
08-27-10, 10:45 PM
I love the 11' Mustang. The re-release of the 5.0 is going to go over well. That 5 liter is making a ton of na power. I'm surprised to see how well they favored it when comparing it to the M3. Typically those guys are BMW nut huggers, and it seemed to me they really like the Mustang.

Now why they chose that awful shocky blue color to compete against that pretty red BMW is beyond me. I hope they're not going to produce that color.

Night Wolf
08-27-10, 11:15 PM
Impressive. Too bad they haven't given up on the solid rear axle though.

Destroyer
08-27-10, 11:18 PM
I love the 11' Mustang. The re-release of the 5.0 is going to go over well. That 5 liter is making a ton of na power. I'm surprised to see how well they favored it when comparing it to the M3. Typically those guys are BMW nut huggers, and it seemed to me they really like the Mustang.

Now why they chose that awful shocky blue color to compete against that pretty red BMW is beyond me. I hope they're not going to produce that color...............and the driver thought the Mustang would wipe the new Z28 up on the track too. Ford has definately done their homework this time and came up with a great competitor!!!
:woot2::bouncy2::urb::beavis::flame:

Rolex
08-28-10, 09:12 AM
..............and the driver thought the Mustang would wipe the new Z28 up on the track too. Ford has definately done their homework this time and came up with a great competitor!!!
:woot2::bouncy2::urb::beavis::flame:

It's only straight line but...

tJHqbqGCCMc

hueterm
08-28-10, 09:17 AM
ROFL that they're dragging on an active runway....what nutbags....

Surely that Camaro driver didn't know what he was doing -- it can't be that much of a stomp... I know the Camaro weighs like 8000 lbs (j/k) but it got bitchslapped....

Stingroo
08-28-10, 09:51 AM
It's not. Look how bad the Camaro's RT was.

That vid is a joke IMO.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-28-10, 09:53 AM
Yeah, that Camaro was way late on the start.

93DevilleUSMC
08-28-10, 10:49 PM
I love the 11' Mustang. The re-release of the 5.0 is going to go over well. That 5 liter is making a ton of na power. I'm surprised to see how well they favored it when comparing it to the M3. Typically those guys are BMW nut huggers, and it seemed to me they really like the Mustang.

Now why they chose that awful shocky blue color to compete against that pretty red BMW is beyond me. I hope they're not going to produce that color.


Impressive. Too bad they haven't given up on the solid rear axle though.

Rolex, they are still hugging BMW nut. They picked the M3 as their winner even though their professional driver called the Mustang as a winner. And as far as the color, they've already been producing it since the 2010 model came out. It's called Grabber Blue, and was available in the `60s. I guess they are going for the retro color fans that might be looking at B5 Blue Challengers.

Nightwolf, I think Ford will get rid of the live axle the day Chevrolet throws out the small-block V-8. It is signature technology to them.

Night Wolf
08-28-10, 11:38 PM
Rolex, they are still hugging BMW nut. They picked the M3 as their winner even though their professional driver called the Mustang as a winner. And as far as the color, they've already been producing it since the 2010 model came out. It's called Grabber Blue, and was available in the `60s. I guess they are going for the retro color fans that might be looking at B5 Blue Challengers.

Nightwolf, I think Ford will get rid of the live axle the day Chevrolet throws out the small-block V-8. It is signature technology to them.

There is nothing signature technology about a solid rear axle in a performance car - one now marketed to turn as well as going straight.

Among the main drawbacks of a solid axle would be a massive amount of unsprung weight compared to IRS - read up on sprung vs unsprung weight to learn the difference.

Also, many IRS setups and especially on performance cars are made to increase camber as the vehicle enters a turn - a very good thing, as it allows the tire to get a better bite on the road. A solid axle does not allow that. Nor does it allow toe/camber adjustment.

For off-road vehicles, solid axles are much prefered and offer many advantages over an independent suspension. For a performance car made to turn? Not so much...

93DevilleUSMC
08-29-10, 01:46 AM
True, but the Mustang people don't want to give up the log axle.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 03:26 AM
True, but the Mustang people don't want to give up drag racing.

Fixed :)

Stingroo
08-29-10, 09:08 AM
^ And the problem with that is....?

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 09:18 AM
^ And the problem with that is....?

The benefits of IRS aren't very useful in drag racing. He has a legit point. Ford isn't going to waste money throwing a much more expensive IRS in a car that's made/accepted for and excels at cheap drag thrills.

It's unfortunate that drag racing/straight line performance is, generally, the limit of many Americans vision when it comes to performance. Because of it all we've been producing in recent years is high horsepower front wheel drive cars and the half-finished sports car with a live axle that we call the Mustang.

Thankfully in recent years the domestic auto crisis has pushed manufacturers to compete on the world stage rather than staying inside the box in the US and now we are getting some neat/more worthy products that truly speak "performance", such as the Caddy V series.

Stingroo
08-29-10, 09:22 AM
No, I know IRS isn't very useful for drag racing, but what I was saying was "What's the problem with building a car for drag racing?" It obviously sells cars, look how many Mustangs they move per year.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-29-10, 09:42 AM
True, but if they offered a car that was better set up for handling with the IRS, it'd really be the only american sports car (aside from the Corvette) to do so. It would be the sharp handler that the M3 has always been. It would be America's only true competition to the M3/S5/CLK63 AMG, and at a much cheaper cost.

Stingroo
08-29-10, 09:45 AM
Yeah, but I don't think any M3 buyer will ever sit down and go "What about a Mustang?"

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening. I hold no bias on the subject, since I don't like the styling of the new Mustang (sorry, the '05 redesign looks better to me) and I'm no fan of the M3 either.

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 09:51 AM
Yeah, but I don't think any M3 buyer will ever sit down and go "What about a Mustang?"

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening. I hold no bias on the subject, since I don't like the styling of the new Mustang (sorry, the '05 redesign looks better to me) and I'm no fan of the M3 either.

I think what Chad and the rest of us are trying to say is that an IRS, giving some handling characteristics, could broaden the cars potential audience greatly. A Mustang with an IRS has a much better chance of swaying that M3 owner than the current setup. The Mustang is a great car as is, but isn't very far away from becoming a world class sports car rather than just the stop light warrior it is.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-29-10, 10:03 AM
Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of M3 owners would ever consider a Mustang, with or without an IRS setup, but it would give another option to the sort of people who want the performance of a Corvette but want two more seats and don't wanna buy German or Japanese.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 11:44 AM
^ And the problem with that is....?

I just don't "get it". "It" being drag racing.

I have done it, and it is fun. Fun for me to race my personal vehicles - not made for drag racing, just to see what they run. After that, it was boring.

Heck, here I am about a month after I turned 16 and thus got my drivers license:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1471/2781/3676390042_large.jpg

I know I'll ruffle feathers here by saying this, but is is just my own personal opinion. The thrill of stomping the gas for 0.25 miles and going straight, then stopping.... something that lasts not even 18 seconds in my Jeep. On a typical drag night you may get to do that 3-6 times. Fun for some? Sure, but not me.

Maybe back in the day when vehicles were not all that quick and engines were not so finely tuned from the factory as they are today, there was a thrill of personally being able to do little tricks to modify your car and see the improvements you can make.

But take the 2011 Mustang now, a 300+HP V6 and a 400+HP V8. A V6 producing Mach1 numbers of less then 10 years ago, and producing much more power then a GT 15 or 20years ago.

So how far does it go? Yes, for bragging rights or throwing internet numbers around it's fun to talk about which is faster or high HP numbers - but for real life vehicles that are not used in professional racing events - no matter what type they may be. Just how fast do we need to be able to accelerate when our highest posted speed limit is around 80mph and even the opertunity to legally drive a new performance car to it's limits (at a track etc...) is rather slim in many places.

To each their own, and I know others feel different, that's fine. I just enjoy a much more fulfilling type of automotive sport, one I can enjoy for hours on end if wanted. That's why I personally enjoy off-roading, it's a auto sport, and can be a highly technical one at that, one that puts so many different aspects to the test, and it can last for hours/days/weeks very easily cheaply. Same thing with a smaller, enough - but not overwhelming power in a car that is fun to drive. You can -legally- enjoy such a car on public roads, just pick your favorite twisties. It dosen't feel like you have to keep holding back as you squeeze all the power out of a vehicle that dosen't reach triple digit speeds in under 20 seconds. It put so much more to the test - both driver and vehicle, then simply going stomping the gas from a stop and going straight for 0.25 miles.

The other day at work there was a conversation among a few people that was asking about what drifting was. I made the simple comment "It is just another form of automotive, like drag racing or auto-x" To which an older guy who is into muscles cars replied "It aint nuthin like drag racing! Thats real racing" I blinked a few times, then let out a chuckle.

I say this now, because it is the exact oppisite of how I used to think and feel. Years back - on this forum, my feeling was to heck with handling, who cars, I want power! My dream of building up a fun car was to build the most powerful Caddy 500 I could and stick it in a '75 Coupe DeVille to make an ultimate sleeper.

It was a slow progression though. First it was drag racing the vehicles I owned, and while it was fun. Once I established what they could run - sort of for a way for me to mentally know where my vehicles place compared to other new ones etc... I lost interest. Then I bought an old Isuzu truck that happened to have a 5spd manual transmission - and I fond out that I really, really like shifting my own gears as it made even trips across town in a 4cyl truck fun. Then I bought a small car made for handling with a totally trashed suspension and realized - hey, this is really a fun car to drive and I don't need to hit triple digit speeds to enjoy it. Then I got a $370 speeding ticket in said 170hp 6cyl car, and the following year another $370 speed ticket in similar car but powered by a 130hp 4cyl. Each ticket was for going ~27mph over the limit. Knowing both cars were easily capable reaching speeds well into the triple digits, I really had to ask myself - what would the point of more power in this vehicle provide? When the answer was more speeding tickets and faster ways of getting in trouble, it was around that time I realized not only do I not enjoy the whole mega-HP go fast going straight thing, but it would get me in trouble and cost money/safety.

One weekend several months back I detailed an '01 Mustang GT 5spd. It was modified with a Basanni exhaust, CAI, Eibach lowering springs and larger wheels/tires. I will say I liked the car - for what it offered, and I like the Ford 4.6. It made epic sounds when you hit the throttle and it accelerated very quick.

Yet I found it to be quite underwhelming to "drive". It's hard to explain, because it was a good are and I did like it.... but the car just didn't give me a feeling of wanting to "drive". The shifter was in a horrible location and the car loved to go straight. The steering on that car was one of the worst in a "performance" car I experienced. It didn't want to turn. Not just the steering, but the entire car. It felt like I was literally pushing it through a turn - wrestling with the very car to not make it go straight. As such, it took so much of the experience away from "driving". Yes, it was fun to accelerate quickly up to or just past the speed limit, which the car did without effort - but then the fun ended until the next time to accelerate came up.

Some may enjoy that driving, but after being exposed to, and enjoy the "full" driving expereince - going straight, stopping, turning - I just can't get over how much more fun and enjoyable it is.

In a high end luxury car, one made for passenger comfort and not driving pleasure - having lots of power to accelerate quickly is a nice thing. In anything considered a performance car - such as the new crop of muscles cars... I just see it as a part of the equation.

Which is why, personally, as great as they look and sound, I just don't see myself actually buying one at all. Instead the main "new" performance cars I am interested in are things like the Mini Cooper, BMW 1-series, Mazda Miata and now discontinued Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. They just appeal to me so much more and I could see myself having alot more fun with them.

Heck, just last night I was browing the websites looking at new Mini Cooper S convertibles and BMW 128i/135i convertibles.... the thrill of "new shiney car" was there, but the prices were high - $35k+ Then I really had to ask myself what they offer over what my old e30 will when I am done with it..... They look good, but so does my e30. They are fun to drive, but so is the e30, they enough options and comfort features to make them a very nice daily driver, but not take away from what the car is about, but so does the e30, they look great.... but dang I like some e30. They cost $35k+ before tax/extra interest. My e30 cost ~$6,000 spread out over the course of a few years paying cash for the vehicle and maintenace/modifications

I couldn't help but realize that my old e30 fits the bill so darn well of what I am looking for in a "new" vehicle, much less an old one - and that it is going to be around for quite some time.

That was quite the tanget - just my thoughts on some things. Chicken and dumplings are gone, e30 work here I come!

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 11:57 AM
Yeah, but I don't think any M3 buyer will ever sit down and go "What about a Mustang?"

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening. I hold no bias on the subject, since I don't like the styling of the new Mustang (sorry, the '05 redesign looks better to me) and I'm no fan of the M3 either.

I really don't think Ford is trying, or intending on stealing M3 buyers. What it comes down to is that the options for what America has to offer for "that type" of driving are are slim, if non existant.

I found that out when I first test drove a then-new Pontiac Solstice GXP. Sweet car! Man, I liked that car! I would personally pick a Saturn Sky Redline over the Solstice, but they are both darn nice. Then I saw the price tag. $35k+ for new. Not wanting to get into that much debt on a new car, I set out for what would offer a very similar type of driving experience but was older and thus cheaper.

My hunt came back with two main, practical choices - Mazda Miata and BMW e30 convertible. Both were around in the late 80's/early 90's. The US simply did not make a car that could compare at all to these cars. The closest would be the Corvette - and that is in a totally different class as well as offering very different driving characteristics. In fact the only thing the US, let along GM that really made to compare in that category would be the Solstice/Sky, a very nice offering, but now dead.

My father and step mother are both long term Pontiac fans, as a way of recognizing Pontiacs death, she bought a brand new G6 GXP (automatic) hardtop convertible and he bought a brand new GXP (manual shift) Solstice. I'm excited to see the Solstice next time I go up.

Years from now if I am in the market for a car to replace the e30 from daily driver status, a car that offers the same type of enjoyment - I'm pretty sure it's going to be a battle between the Mini Cooper S convertible, BMW 128i/135i convertible and Saturn Sky Redline.

Stingroo
08-29-10, 12:03 PM
I don't buy it. I really don't. Who hasn't seen a Mustang at a track event in their lifetime? They're everywhere, at all types of racing events, too. I can't just sit there and accept "It's just a go straight fast car" and I don't even much LIKE the Mustang. I think that's just blind stereotyping. But, alas, we can agree to disagree.

And I would be all over a Solstice/Sky too. Sweet cars.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of M3 owners would ever consider a Mustang, with or without an IRS setup, but it would give another option to the sort of people who want the performance of a Corvette but want two more seats and don't wanna buy German or Japanese.

For nearly half the cost! I admit, the 2011 Mustang grabs my attention, that video against the M3 was very cool. I just don't think I'd own one, or a car similar to it for the reasons mentioned in the previous posts.

Heck, other then the sound and "It's a Mustang" I can't think of any other reason to choose the 305hp/31mpg V6 over the 416hp/26mpg V8. 305hp from an NA V6 is incredible, and with the exception of some of the later special models (Cobra etc...) is a greater amount of power then any other V8 Mustang has had.

After watching the video vs the M3, I went to Ford's website and was browsing the new Mustang. I had to ask myself if the extra 100hp on top of an already high horsepower figure was worth the extra upfront cost, cost in interest (no doubt the car would be financed) cost in insurance and cost in fuel economy (5mpg over 100,000 miles adds up....) It all went back to the "sound" and "it's a Mustang - it should have a V8"..... other then that I just couldn't see a reason for getting a V8 over the V6 in this car.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 12:14 PM
I don't buy it. I really don't. Who hasn't seen a Mustang at a track event in their lifetime? They're everywhere, at all types of racing events, too. I can't just sit there and accept "It's just a go straight fast car" and I don't even much LIKE the Mustang. I think that's just blind stereotyping. But, alas, we can agree to disagree.

And I would be all over a Solstice/Sky too. Sweet cars.

I never said Mustangs and other muscle cars are not at track events or used for racing.

There is something to be said when a 120HP Miata runs all over a V8 Mustang..... or Corvette....or Viper... cars with many times the power, at an auto-x.

We really don't have many places to legally enjoy high performance cars here in the US, be it a Mustang or M3. Germany's Nurburgring is open to the public. We don't have that here. The only option would be HPDE or to join various clubs, and even then it is usually a few times/year and at a very high cost.

To me the logic of owning a vehicle, for daily driver use, that you can not fully experience just dosen't fit. A nice luxury car? You get to enjoy it's features and benefits every time you drive it. -personally- my Jeep? I enjoy everything it has to offer each time I drive it, be it on road or off. I can spend hours using it off-road and having fun. A small fun to drive car made for handling? Dosen't matter if you are sticking to the speed limit and driving across town - just shifting through the gears and taking turns fast is fun.

But then it leaves the high power cars, be it M3, Mustang or whatever. It's not the 80's and early 90's anymore where performance on regular cars was dull and the performance cars were decently quick. Today we have regular cars equalling the performance of high end cars 20-years ago. 300hp from 4.6L V8 Northstar was quite a feat when new. Now we have a basic V6 Mustang offering that.

Which leaves me wondering - other then bragging rights over the internet/at work/to your neighbor etc... just what is the benefit of such cars, and where can they actually be enjoyed to the full extent of what they are capable of?

93DevilleUSMC
08-29-10, 01:12 PM
The benefits of IRS aren't very useful in drag racing. He has a legit point. Ford isn't going to waste money throwing a much more expensive IRS in a car that's made/accepted for and excels at cheap drag thrills.

It's unfortunate that drag racing/straight line performance is, generally, the limit of many Americans vision when it comes to performance. Because of it all we've been producing in recent years is high horsepower front wheel drive cars and the half-finished sports car with a live axle that we call the Mustang.

Thankfully in recent years the domestic auto crisis has pushed manufacturers to compete on the world stage rather than staying inside the box in the US and now we are getting some neat/more worthy products that truly speak "performance", such as the Caddy V series.


I think what Chad and the rest of us are trying to say is that an IRS, giving some handling characteristics, could broaden the cars potential audience greatly. A Mustang with an IRS has a much better chance of swaying that M3 owner than the current setup. The Mustang is a great car as is, but isn't very far away from becoming a world class sports car rather than just the stop light warrior it is.


True, but if they offered a car that was better set up for handling with the IRS, it'd really be the only american sports car (aside from the Corvette) to do so. It would be the sharp handler that the M3 has always been. It would be America's only true competition to the M3/S5/CLK63 AMG, and at a much cheaper cost.

The Mustang already is a rival to the M3 in current form. For it's price, you are getting 99% of the M3`s performance capabilities with a much lower price. That being said, I do agree that the Mustang would be capable of annihilating the M3 with an IRS, and of truly challenging the AMG series.

The question is, when is Ford going to realize the potential of switching the Mustang to IRS? I remain skeptical of it happening anytime soon, especially since they have squeezed so much out of the live axle. Why can't they just offer an IRS on the standard car, and keep the live axle as a Ford Racing part?

93DevilleUSMC
08-29-10, 01:17 PM
Yeah, but I don't think any M3 buyer will ever sit down and go "What about a Mustang?"

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening. I hold no bias on the subject, since I don't like the styling of the new Mustang (sorry, the '05 redesign looks better to me) and I'm no fan of the M3 either.


Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of M3 owners would ever consider a Mustang, with or without an IRS setup, but it would give another option to the sort of people who want the performance of a Corvette but want two more seats and don't wanna buy German or Japanese.


I really don't think Ford is trying, or intending on stealing M3 buyers. What it comes down to is that the options for what America has to offer for "that type" of driving are are slim, if non existant.

I found that out when I first test drove a then-new Pontiac Solstice GXP. Sweet car! Man, I liked that car! I would personally pick a Saturn Sky Redline over the Solstice, but they are both darn nice. Then I saw the price tag. $35k+ for new. Not wanting to get into that much debt on a new car, I set out for what would offer a very similar type of driving experience but was older and thus cheaper.

My hunt came back with two main, practical choices - Mazda Miata and BMW e30 convertible. Both were around in the late 80's/early 90's. The US simply did not make a car that could compare at all to these cars. The closest would be the Corvette - and that is in a totally different class as well as offering very different driving characteristics. In fact the only thing the US, let along GM that really made to compare in that category would be the Solstice/Sky, a very nice offering, but now dead.

My father and step mother are both long term Pontiac fans, as a way of recognizing Pontiacs death, she bought a brand new G6 GXP (automatic) hardtop convertible and he bought a brand new GXP (manual shift) Solstice. I'm excited to see the Solstice next time I go up.

Years from now if I am in the market for a car to replace the e30 from daily driver status, a car that offers the same type of enjoyment - I'm pretty sure it's going to be a battle between the Mini Cooper S convertible, BMW 128i/135i convertible and Saturn Sky Redline.

Ten years ago, no one would have thought of a Cadillac that could steal M5 buyers. Now we have a CTS-V that can and has beaten the M5.

The Europeans are not invincible, and are not out of American reach. For the last few years, America's cars have been bargain rivals to Eurpoe's elite. Now we are showing the capability to beat the Germans at far less cost.

93DevilleUSMC
08-29-10, 01:23 PM
For nearly half the cost! I admit, the 2011 Mustang grabs my attention, that video against the M3 was very cool. I just don't think I'd own one, or a car similar to it for the reasons mentioned in the previous posts.

Heck, other then the sound and "It's a Mustang" I can't think of any other reason to choose the 305hp/31mpg V6 over the 416hp/26mpg V8. 305hp from an NA V6 is incredible, and with the exception of some of the later special models (Cobra etc...) is a greater amount of power then any other V8 Mustang has had.

After watching the video vs the M3, I went to Ford's website and was browsing the new Mustang. I had to ask myself if the extra 100hp on top of an already high horsepower figure was worth the extra upfront cost, cost in interest (no doubt the car would be financed) cost in insurance and cost in fuel economy (5mpg over 100,000 miles adds up....) It all went back to the "sound" and "it's a Mustang - it should have a V8"..... other then that I just couldn't see a reason for getting a V8 over the V6 in this car.

I think that you're talking about affordable performance, which is different than high performance. Affordable performance means acceptable performance limited for affordability. High performance means affordability limited in the name of maximum performance. For those with more of a mind towards their budget than their driving hobbies, a V-6 Mustang makes much more sense than a V-8. But for those who can afford it, the V-8 Mustang allows them to have an affordable rival to much more expensive machines, the owners of which paid far too much for to begin with.

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 01:30 PM
I just don't "get it". "It" being drag racing.

I have done it, and it is fun. Fun for me to race my personal vehicles - not made for drag racing, just to see what they run. After that, it was boring.



I know I'll ruffle feathers here by saying this, but is is just my own personal opinion. The thrill of stomping the gas for 0.25 miles and going straight, then stopping.... something that lasts not even 18 seconds in my Jeep. On a typical drag night you may get to do that 3-6 times. Fun for some? Sure, but not me.

Some may enjoy that driving, but after being exposed to, and enjoy the "full" driving expereince - going straight, stopping, turning - I just can't get over how much more fun and enjoyable it is.



Well said sir, my thoughts exactly.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 04:56 PM
The Mustang already is a rival to the M3 in current form. For it's price, you are getting 99% of the M3`s performance capabilities with a much lower price. That being said, I do agree that the Mustang would be capable of annihilating the M3 with an IRS, and of truly challenging the AMG series.

The question is, when is Ford going to realize the potential of switching the Mustang to IRS? I remain skeptical of it happening anytime soon, especially since they have squeezed so much out of the live axle. Why can't they just offer an IRS on the standard car, and keep the live axle as a Ford Racing part?

The Mustang is as much of a rival to the M3 as a Corvette is a rival to a Ferrari F430.

Ford did use IRS on the Mustang Cobra, too bad they didn't keep it. I know the folks that drag raced them complained.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5669/43largeiz5.jpg

Stingroo
08-29-10, 04:59 PM
Uhm... newsflash, a Corvette is a rival to the F430 in every way but price.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 05:03 PM
Ten years ago, no one would have thought of a Cadillac that could steal M5 buyers. Now we have a CTS-V that can and has beaten the M5.

The Europeans are not invincible, and are not out of American reach. For the last few years, America's cars have been bargain rivals to Eurpoe's elite. Now we are showing the capability to beat the Germans at far less cost.

You just said it yourself - the US is NOW starting to make these cars.

That's great for people that can afford, or want to get into mega debt on a brand new car.

Personally I am not one of those people. As it is now, I wouldn't be buying such a car until it was atleast 10 years old.

Europe and Japan have been building these types of cars for a very long time. Somebody such as myself looking for an older/cheaper car simply didn't have anything from the US that would fit the bill.

I read posts like this and I see myself several years ago - I was saying similar things. I never experienced the cars I was talking about though, which was my own fault for putting down a vehicles performance or driving dynamics that I have not drove.

Which is why I was so shocked when I bought a $2,500 20 year old worn out BMW. Turns out more mechanical things on the car were broke, then working.... yet there was still such a thrill to be had. The more I drove it and the more I realized I didn't have much of a clue what I was talking about beforehand.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 05:10 PM
Uhm... newsflash, a Corvette is a rival to the F430 in every way but price.

Which is the same thing that can be said for Mustang vs M3.

***not saying it dosen't happen***

But the chance that someone has the means and desire for a Ferrari F430, and wants that car.... then passes it up and gets a Corvette is very slim. If someone wants an F430, they want an F430. They don't care that they can have 99% of the performance at half the cost, they want an F430 for whatever their reasons may be.

It's the same thing with a Mustang vs M3. Unless someone just has disposable money, if someone buys an M3 it's because they want an M3, the chance that they are cross-shopping Mustangs is slim.

As is such with premium cars, regardless of what area it is in. You can generally get "almost as much" for a fraction of the cost. Just like the Lexus LS400 vs MB S-class back in the 90's, or how many of todays' premium Hyundai's and Kia's rivial models from traditional luxury car makers.

If you want to play the numbers game on the internet, then yes - they are perfect rivals. If you consider what happens in real-world, no they are not.

Night Wolf
08-29-10, 05:22 PM
I think that you're talking about affordable performance, which is different than high performance. Affordable performance means acceptable performance limited for affordability. High performance means affordability limited in the name of maximum performance. For those with more of a mind towards their budget than their driving hobbies, a V-6 Mustang makes much more sense than a V-8. But for those who can afford it, the V-8 Mustang allows them to have an affordable rival to much more expensive machines, the owners of which paid far too much for to begin with.

What I was talking about in the post you quoted had nothing to do with affordability or price at all.

I was simply making a statement along the lines of "Where do you take advantage of it?"

The 2011 V6 Mustang is putting out the same HP as a nearly 10-year older Mach1, which was a fast car. Knowing how I drive, and the fact that I have been content with a 130hp 4cyl and 170hp 6cyl, have went well into triple digits with both and have also getten expensive speeding tickets in both....

I have to ask myself where and how often would I actually be able to fully take advantage of a 300hp Mustang, regardless if it was a V6 or V8. At no point when I was driving spirited with my 130hp 4cyl or 170hp 6cyl did I have my foot planted down on the throttle and just waiting for the engine to rev thinking to myself "damn, if only I had twice the amount of power". I'm not saying a bit more power would be a bad thing. But the 2011 v6 Mustang is considerably faster then any vehicle I've owned, which have been fast enough for me, reached twice the highest posted speed limit I've encountered and gotten me in trouble.

Which is why I said when I was looking at Ford's website, other then the sound of a V8 and the mindset that a Mustang should have a V8, I see no other reason why I would choose a V8 over the V6. Some feel the need to drive a 12sec 1/4 mi car to work, I don't.

The video of the Mustang GT vs M3 is a perfect example. Both cars are being enjoyed to their limit. Can the average person push either of those vehicles that far on a day to day routine? How many times per month? year? Actually.... what would be required and needed to be able to do that very thing yourself (as in the video) and push the vehicle to its limits?

The only place I can think of around here is Road Atlanta. Even then, there are only certain days of the year you can go, or you need to be a member of a club - which also only goes certain days of the year. So regardless of the cost required, the times that you can actually push the vehicle to its limits is very slim.

http://www.roadatlanta.com/

Destroyer
08-29-10, 06:52 PM
There is nothing signature technology about a solid rear axle in a performance car - one now marketed to turn as well as going straight.

Among the main drawbacks of a solid axle would be a massive amount of unsprung weight compared to IRS - read up on sprung vs unsprung weight to learn the difference.

Also, many IRS setups and especially on performance cars are made to increase camber as the vehicle enters a turn - a very good thing, as it allows the tire to get a better bite on the road. A solid axle does not allow that. Nor does it allow toe/camber adjustment.

For off-road vehicles, solid axles are much prefered and offer many advantages over an independent suspension. For a performance car made to turn? Not so much...Ford tried doing IRS in the Mustang. My '99 Cobra had it as did the '01-'04 Cobra's. It didn't work, owners of these Mustangs regularly swap the IRS out for solid axle rears. Why? Handling wise the difference is neglible. For drag racing (what most Mustangs and Camaro's do) the wheel hop is a PITA. Ford knows what the clientele for a Mustang wants and the production costs for a solid axle rear is also cheaper. :cool2:

Destroyer
08-29-10, 07:27 PM
I just don't "get it". "It" being drag racing.

I have done it, and it is fun. Fun for me to race my personal vehicles - not made for drag racing, just to see what they run. After that, it was boring.

I know I'll ruffle feathers here by saying this, but is is just my own personal opinion. The thrill of stomping the gas for 0.25 miles and going straight, then stopping.... something that lasts not even 18 seconds in my Jeep. On a typical drag night you may get to do that 3-6 times. Fun for some? Sure, but not me.

Maybe back in the day when vehicles were not all that quick and engines were not so finely tuned from the factory as they are today, there was a thrill of personally being able to do little tricks to modify your car and see the improvements you can make.

But take the 2011 Mustang now, a 300+HP V6 and a 400+HP V8. A V6 producing Mach1 numbers of less then 10 years ago, and producing much more power then a GT 15 or 20years ago.

So how far does it go? Yes, for bragging rights or throwing internet numbers around it's fun to talk about which is faster or high HP numbers - but for real life vehicles that are not used in professional racing events - no matter what type they may be. Just how fast do we need to be able to accelerate when our highest posted speed limit is around 80mph and even the opertunity to legally drive a new performance car to it's limits (at a track etc...) is rather slim in many places.Drag racing is fun BUT the faster the better. I ran my 11 second Mach1 at the track and had loads of fun. On the other end I ran my '00 Camry 4 banger/5 spd and thought it was boring as hell (quicker than your Jeep though). Drag racing is all about winning. If you win it will be more fun. If you lose, you will make more mods and come back and win. Simply running a slow car to see what it runs is not that fun, does not get the adrenalin going and isn't all that exciting.



To each their own, and I know others feel different, that's fine. I just enjoy a much more fulfilling type of automotive sport, one I can enjoy for hours on end if wanted. That's why I personally enjoy off-roading, it's a auto sport, and can be a highly technical one at that, one that puts so many different aspects to the test, and it can last for hours/days/weeks very easily cheaply. Same thing with a smaller, enough - but not overwhelming power in a car that is fun to drive. You can -legally- enjoy such a car on public roads, just pick your favorite twisties. It dosen't feel like you have to keep holding back as you squeeze all the power out of a vehicle that dosen't reach triple digit speeds in under 20 seconds. It put so much more to the test - both driver and vehicle, then simply going stomping the gas from a stop and going straight for 0.25 miles.
There are those that would call climbing a bunch of rocks and steep inclines a very "redneck" thing and dismiss it at that. I don't, it sounds like fun but I don't have the time or inclination to try it. It is something you enjoy more than drag racing and that's cool but that doesn't make it the "thing to do" for everyone. Some of us like drag racing.


The other day at work there was a conversation among a few people that was asking about what drifting was. I made the simple comment "It is just another form of automotive, like drag racing or auto-x" To which an older guy who is into muscles cars replied "It aint nuthin like drag racing! Thats real racing" I blinked a few times, then let out a chuckle.

I say this now, because it is the exact oppisite of how I used to think and feel. Years back - on this forum, my feeling was to heck with handling, who cars, I want power! My dream of building up a fun car was to build the most powerful Caddy 500 I could and stick it in a '75 Coupe DeVille to make an ultimate sleeper. Drag racing IS real racing. I mean, do you time each other climbing over rocks and going on steep inclines? Are you in competition with anyone or just follow a course and help each other out when you get stuck? Sounds more like an adventure than a competition to me.

Should have stuck with your dream of building up a '75 Coupe Deville with a modded 500. Could still be done Rick.


It was a slow progression though. First it was drag racing the vehicles I owned, and while it was fun. Once I established what they could run - sort of for a way for me to mentally know where my vehicles place compared to other new ones etc... I lost interest. Then I bought an old Isuzu truck that happened to have a 5spd manual transmission - and I fond out that I really, really like shifting my own gears as it made even trips across town in a 4cyl truck fun. Then I bought a small car made for handling with a totally trashed suspension and realized - hey, this is really a fun car to drive and I don't need to hit triple digit speeds to enjoy it. Then I got a $370 speeding ticket in said 170hp 6cyl car, and the following year another $370 speed ticket in similar car but powered by a 130hp 4cyl. Each ticket was for going ~27mph over the limit. Knowing both cars were easily capable reaching speeds well into the triple digits, I really had to ask myself - what would the point of more power in this vehicle provide? When the answer was more speeding tickets and faster ways of getting in trouble, it was around that time I realized not only do I not enjoy the whole mega-HP go fast going straight thing, but it would get me in trouble and cost money/safety.

One weekend several months back I detailed an '01 Mustang GT 5spd. It was modified with a Basanni exhaust, CAI, Eibach lowering springs and larger wheels/tires. I will say I liked the car - for what it offered, and I like the Ford 4.6. It made epic sounds when you hit the throttle and it accelerated very quick.

Yet I found it to be quite underwhelming to "drive". It's hard to explain, because it was a good are and I did like it.... but the car just didn't give me a feeling of wanting to "drive". The shifter was in a horrible location and the car loved to go straight. The steering on that car was one of the worst in a "performance" car I experienced. It didn't want to turn. Not just the steering, but the entire car. It felt like I was literally pushing it through a turn - wrestling with the very car to not make it go straight. As such, it took so much of the experience away from "driving". Yes, it was fun to accelerate quickly up to or just past the speed limit, which the car did without effort - but then the fun ended until the next time to accelerate came up.

Some may enjoy that driving, but after being exposed to, and enjoy the "full" driving expereince - going straight, stopping, turning - I just can't get over how much more fun and enjoyable it is.

In a high end luxury car, one made for passenger comfort and not driving pleasure - having lots of power to accelerate quickly is a nice thing. In anything considered a performance car - such as the new crop of muscles cars... I just see it as a part of the equation.

Which is why, personally, as great as they look and sound, I just don't see myself actually buying one at all. Instead the main "new" performance cars I am interested in are things like the Mini Cooper, BMW 1-series, Mazda Miata and now discontinued Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. They just appeal to me so much more and I could see myself having alot more fun with them.

Heck, just last night I was browing the websites looking at new Mini Cooper S convertibles and BMW 128i/135i convertibles.... the thrill of "new shiney car" was there, but the prices were high - $35k+ Then I really had to ask myself what they offer over what my old e30 will when I am done with it..... They look good, but so does my e30. They are fun to drive, but so is the e30, they enough options and comfort features to make them a very nice daily driver, but not take away from what the car is about, but so does the e30, they look great.... but dang I like some e30. They cost $35k+ before tax/extra interest. My e30 cost ~$6,000 spread out over the course of a few years paying cash for the vehicle and maintenace/modifications

I couldn't help but realize that my old e30 fits the bill so darn well of what I am looking for in a "new" vehicle, much less an old one - and that it is going to be around for quite some time.

That was quite the tanget - just my thoughts on some things. Chicken and dumplings are gone, e30 work here I come!At the end of the day Rick, all vehicles each offer a different experience and that is what makes them appealing to one and unappealing to others. :thumbsup:

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 09:36 PM
[QUOTE=Destroyer;2347714]

Drag racing IS real racing.

???

Call it fun, call it great entertainment. Fine.

The problem is that drag racing takes minimal input from the driver. For the most part, if you really have your car set up correctly and can reliably hook up, all you should be doing is mashing the gas at green and don't let off till the finish. THAT'S why it's boring.

A drag race may be, by definition, a timed competition race, but hell if it's true racing. True racing involves competition between drivers, not just cars.

When I win/lose a drag race, I consider the fact that my car won/lost against the other car. I as a driver didn't lose to the other driver...there was no skill involved. Drag racing is machine vs machine, not man vs man. It's very impersonal and quite unrewarding, winning or not.

True racing tests ALL of the cars limits as well as the drivers.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-29-10, 09:47 PM
Well that's true for the most part, but you left out the importance of reaction time. That can make or break a race between two identical cars. Plus, it takes some time and skill to learn the proper way to launch your car optimally, no matter if it's high power or low power, FWD, AWD, RWD, etc etc.

Destroyer
08-29-10, 09:48 PM
[QUOTE=Destroyer;2347714]

Drag racing IS real racing.

???

Call it fun, call it great entertainment. Fine.

The problem is that drag racing takes minimal input from the driver. For the most part, if you really have your car set up correctly and can reliably hook up, all you should be doing is mashing the gas at green and don't let off till the finish. THAT'S why it's boring.

A drag race may be, by definition, a timed competition race, but hell if it's true racing. True racing involves competition between drivers, not just cars.

When I win/lose a drag race, I consider the fact that my car won/lost against the other car. I as a driver didn't lose to the other driver...there was no skill involved. Drag racing is machine vs machine, not man vs man. It's very impersonal and quite unrewarding, winning or not.

True racing tests ALL of the cars limits as well as the drivers.2 men leave, one man wins. It is a sport, it is is competition any way you want slice it. It is anything but boring. You just can't have that much fun with it in a stock type low performance vehicle unless you are racing a similar vehicle.

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 09:53 PM
It is anything but boring.

That's subjective. I've been down the track at 11.8 and I still respectfully disagree.

Stingroo
08-29-10, 09:58 PM
Well then honestly, why post about it? I don't get you. One minute you're an informative person who makes good, contributing posts.

But then the next, a topic you disagree with comes up and you become a super douche. What's up with that? Jeez, back on ignore you go. It gets old. :yawn:

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 10:05 PM
Well then honestly, why post about it? I don't get you. One minute you're an informative person who makes good, contributing posts.

But then the next, a topic you disagree with comes up and you become a super douche. What's up with that? Jeez, back on ignore you go. It gets old. :yawn:

You alright there bud? I felt I was pretty respectful here. Where's the doucheness? Just because I disagree? :hmm:

I don't like drag racing and Destroyer does and that's perfectly fine. He didn't hurt my feelings and I'm pretty sure I didn't hurt his. To each man his own, which is why I RESPECTFULLY disagreed to the subjective comment.

Is there some special unwritten rule here that everyone is supposed to be completely passive and dull regardless of subject content?

This is the lounge. Anything here is open to discussion, or even debate. Yes, DEBATE. Not everyone has to agree on every topic posted here.

Please, if you can't handle this then by all means, ignore. I'm tired of being criticized by YOU for simply stating my thoughts. I don't need your approval for what is said here and you don't need mine. There are posts of yours that I didn't agree on, yet I still respected those posts and don't have the urge to attack you because you agreed or disagreed.

I'd appreciate it if you'd either man up or, if that's not gonna happen, just leave me on ignore.

Destroyer
08-29-10, 10:35 PM
You alright there bud? I felt I was pretty respectful here. Where's the doucheness? Just because I disagree? :hmm:

I don't like drag racing and Destroyer does and that's perfectly fine. He didn't hurt my feelings and I'm pretty sure I didn't hurt his. To each man his own, which is why I RESPECTFULLY disagreed to the subjective comment.

Is there some special unwritten rule here that everyone is supposed to be completely passive and dull regardless of subject content?

This is the lounge. Anything here is open to discussion, or even debate. Yes, DEBATE. Not everyone has to agree on every topic posted here.

Please, if you can't handle this then by all means, ignore. I'm tired of being criticized by YOU for simply stating my thoughts. I don't need your approval for what is said here and you don't need mine. There are posts of yours that I didn't agree on, yet I still respected those posts and don't have the urge to attack you because you agreed or disagreed.

I'd appreciate it if you'd either man up or, if that's not gonna happen, just leave me on ignore.When you drag, you want to beat the guy next to you, this is the competitiveness about it, the fun in it and the reason you love it and want to invest in it. Sometimes you KNOW you will and other times you KNOW you wont. It is a crapshoot and it is what makes it fun. Much like gambling or getting a pretty young thing to do the wild thing with you in a public place..................

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-29-10, 11:52 PM
I remember back in high school, whenever two guys would talk about their cars and would wonder who's was faster, they'd drag race them. They didn't go out on a circle track or run on down to the local auto-x track, but they'd drag race. And it's still that way nowadays. When was the last time you got into an argument with a guy at a bar or a friend about how fast your respective cars are and started quoting skidpad numbers, their 70-0 distances or how fast they ran the nurburgring? It never happens! It's always how fast they accelerate and how fast they'll go flat out. Sure, it's nice to have a car that's taut and flat in the corners, but isn't it much better when you've got lots of power behind it?

Night Wolf
08-30-10, 01:38 AM
I am not discrediting drag racing. People have dedicated drag cars just like there are dedicated track cars and dedicated off-road rigs.

What I was getting at was - at what point does it become "enough" for a daily driver? I have talked to some people that say they need to drive to work in a 12-second car. I don't get it. I don't understand what thrill there is in daily driving a vehicle that you can not take enjoy to its fullest potential. If I owned a high-powered car it would bug the heck out of me and tempt me so bad because I would want to take advantage of it and use what it offers, but I am held back by public roads.

I mentioned my Jeep because while it is excellent and at home off-road, even if I never took it off-road, I would still enjoy what it has to offer. Driving around town, to work, or a cross country roadtrip with the top and doors off is an experience in itself. If one likes being in a convertible, then it's like a convertbile+++. Beyond that, it offers a "fun" to drive feeling. That may totally contridict anything I say about a road-driving car, but I find it an incredibly fun and involving vehicle to drive. Again, it's not for everyone, and this is my opinion.


Drag racing is fun BUT the faster the better. I ran my 11 second Mach1 at the track and had loads of fun. On the other end I ran my '00 Camry 4 banger/5 spd and thought it was boring as hell (quicker than your Jeep though). Drag racing is all about winning. If you win it will be more fun. If you lose, you will make more mods and come back and win. Simply running a slow car to see what it runs is not that fun, does not get the adrenalin going and isn't all that exciting.

One time when I was still in tech school living in FL, after class a guy in a beat up old 2wd 5spd 4cyl Ranger lined up with me at the light when I was in my '94 Isuzu Amigo, 2wd 4cyl 5spd. At that point it was on when the light turned green. These were two equally slow (and out of their place) vehicles... yet it was still a thrill. About a minute later when we reached 80 and backed off we were pretty much even. I was laughing so hard and it is still one of the most "fun" drag races I have been in. It dosen't matter how fast your vehicle is, the competition is still there. This just proves my point though, it took a while for the Isuzu to reach 80, but I was able to drive it to its limit and thats what made it fun. If I was in a vehicle that could reach 80 in 10-seconds and I always had to hold back when driving.... where is the practical use for it?

Perhaps because I am not much into competition in proving I am better then someone else is a reason why I don't enjoy drag racing. Personally in the auto sports I enjoy I couldn't care if the other person beats me or not. Off-road I like to sharpen my driving skills and put both myself and my vehicle tot he test to see what they can do, what the limit is, and push the limit. Same thing with the BMW, I want to take it to a race track when it's completed. I don't care about winning, I don't care if I am the slowest car there. I want to open it up and see what it can do and what I can do, and how I can improve. Far greater then not in these situations (off-road or track racing etc...) the driver is the limitation, not the vehicle, even a totally stock vehicle. There is alot of thrill in starting off in a stock vehicle and pushing it to its limits, seeing what needs to improve and becoming a better driver along the way.

That simply isn't there in drag racing. As was discussed in many other threads, real drag racers use automatic transmissions - among other reasons - to eliminate another form of human interaction and room for error. As such, once you learn how to properly launch a given vehicle from a stop, there really isn't a whole lot left to master or improve on. It's all based on the vehicle - want to go faster and improve against the competition? modify the engine to produce more power.


There are those that would call climbing a bunch of rocks and steep inclines a very "redneck" thing and dismiss it at that. I don't, it sounds like fun but I don't have the time or inclination to try it. It is something you enjoy more than drag racing and that's cool but that doesn't make it the "thing to do" for everyone. Some of us like drag racing.

Yes, there are a lot of ignorant people out there. Personally when it comes to "rednecks" and off-road, it most all centers around "muddin'" - of which I take no, or minimal part in. A typical truck for muddin is a fullsize pickup, the largest suspension lift and tires around, and mega power from the engine - as the entire goal of muddin is to keep wheel speed up which keeps momentum of the truck going. Actually doing it is brainless - stomp the gas and generally steer where you want to go. To me, it is sort of like drag racing.... except they steer.

Real "rednecks" usually don't have the money or means to properly build an off-road vehicle and instead do things like "muddin" mixed in with hunting and fishing to pass time. Personally after living in Georgia, I see alot more "real" rednecks driving stock, or stockish pickup trucks then I do driving any sort of modified off-road vehicle. It now gives me the vibe of pickup trucks in general being a "redneck thing"

I am not saying off-road is for everyone. It takes a certain person to enjoy it. Typically one must enjoy the outdoors and being exposed to the environment as well as having a sense for adventure.

There are many types of off-road activites too, pretty much anything you can do on road, you can do off. Rock climbing and hill climbing is fun but I also enjoy the adventure part - going away for a day/weekend/week away from everything and enjoying the world around us, things like this:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5996/19746559.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_2987.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3015.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3093.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3050.jpg

Going places and doing things most others don't

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3070.jpg

Granted we don't have that enviornment here in the Southeast, but I take advantage of what I can. In the process - sharpening my driving skills and building my vehicle up to a point that I feel very confident taking a cross-country road trip to these places.


Drag racing IS real racing. I mean, do you time each other climbing over rocks and going on steep inclines? Are you in competition with anyone or just follow a course and help each other out when you get stuck? Sounds more like an adventure than a competition to me.

I never said it wasn't racing. That comment was in refernce to what what said by a co-worker about drifting. He got upset when I simply said (telling someone who didn't know) that drifting is a form of an automotive sport and used both drag racing and auto-x as an example of other forms. He got upset that I put drifting - apparently "fake" racing along side drag racing as examples of automotive sports.

I never said off-road in and of itself is a competition or a form of racing. Personally I don't care about competition against others - against myself, yes - as in challenging myself and my vehicle to do things I/it haven't done before I enjoy.

To answer your question though, the type of off-road I partake in would be considered recreational off-road, which as you said is more adventure then competition. But again, the competition isn't against others - as they are there to help you in many ways - spotting (eyes outside your vehicle) or getting unstuck etc... The challenge is against yourself - to push the capabilities of both you and your machine.

I don't have many videos of myself attacking challenging terrain, this would be one of the only ones as of yet. I am at the very start of the video, a rather basic hill climb. Hill climbs and rock crawling would be of the more technical parts of the type of off-road I do. This was when my Jeep was on stock suspension with 31s, unlike what one of the guys said - I do not have a rear locker. The first attempt was in 1st gear 4lo, as soon as the tires spun the engine went to redline. Second run was 2nd gear 4lo as it gave me more speed to carry thruough. This isn't the best example of a technical obstical at all, but even in a hill climb there are alot of techniques one can master with throttle, brakes, steering, weight transfer, picking a line etc.... The fun of it is to assess the situation before you start, put a plan together then put it to the test. If it works then you make it, if not then you start over, see what went wrong and what you can do to get around it - that is the type of challenge I personally enjoy.

LTWeOlR2LFk

With that said, there are many types of competitive off-road activities....

such as Formula off-road:

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Or Baja. If I lived near the desert I'd build up a Toyota Tacoma Prerunner to be one heck of a high-speed off-road machine.

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Really, it just comes down to nearly all forms of off-road being cool :cool:

1rzmEnaXZnw


Should have stuck with your dream of building up a '75 Coupe Deville with a modded 500. Could still be done Rick.

There is just no thrill in that anymore. While not into drag racing, the appeal of that particular car would be just messing with others - a sleeper. Even then, the fun of driving around in a gas guzzling beast that can only go straight fast, waiting to stop at a light and line up next to someone with a performance car that actually gives a darn - eh, I'll pass.


At the end of the day Rick, all vehicles each offer a different experience and that is what makes them appealing to one and unappealing to others. :thumbsup:

I agree. You have mentioned a few times about being interested in off-road. If you are ever up this way or have a free weekend, come on up - there isn't a lot directly around me but a few hours North into the mountains there are lots of things. You could experience off-road and see if it is something you are still interested in, I could show you the basics of off-road driving too.

Night Wolf
08-30-10, 02:04 AM
I remember back in high school, whenever two guys would talk about their cars and would wonder who's was faster, they'd drag race them. They didn't go out on a circle track or run on down to the local auto-x track, but they'd drag race. And it's still that way nowadays. When was the last time you got into an argument with a guy at a bar or a friend about how fast your respective cars are and started quoting skidpad numbers, their 70-0 distances or how fast they ran the nurburgring? It never happens! It's always how fast they accelerate and how fast they'll go flat out.

Those are the guys that get the most butt-hurt when an old 110hp Miata totally makes a fool of them in their high power cars at an actual track event.

I understand what you are saying, I think the keyword there was highschool, a carry on from childhood "my bike is cooler then yours!". I personally don't engage in conversations with guys at work saying how fast my car is and if it is faster then theirs and to line up and race.

It's not always that easy to setup an auto-x or track event on the whim like a drag race can be either.

But you are right though. Two guys, two cars, whos car is faster? Sure a drag race will prove that. But it won't prove who is the better driver ;) That's where the fun comes in.

I guess it's the type of people you engage in "car" conversations with. My friend with a modified Miata knows its a slow car. Because of the exhaust, gearing and power band - sometimes others' think he is actually trying to race them on the street when he is in fact just driving a bit spirited. Those are some of the most fun people to mess with because they take is so seriously then get so pissed when you just laugh at the situation. My '92 318iC caused similar reactions. We both often laugh at the situations like this - or when some guy is racing up the engine in a Mustang at a light - I'll sit there right next to him and race the Jeep just to egg him on - which it does. He takes it as a challenge - like he needs to prove his performance car is actually faster then my off-road vehicle. I usually look at them and laugh, which then results in them showing me their 0-60 time when the light turns green. I'm so impressed by that display of acceleration it makes me go right to the dealer and buy a fast car - not.


Sure, it's nice to have a car that's taut and flat in the corners, but isn't it much better when you've got lots of power behind it?

This is the general vibe when it comes to cars that handle - its a thought I used to think as well. "ok, the car handles well..... but I still want lots and lots of power"

I don't set a specific number for power, as it is all realitive to the car, driver and type of driving - track, road etc... The way I sum it up is "enough, but not overwhelming" amount of power.

Personally when it comes to radically increasing the amount of power my car makes - it would only be until I continually push my car to its limits and can handle it with confidence, and I was to rasie the bar. Since I don't have a dedicated track car, and my car was/will be once again a daily driver - its acceleration limits are already enough, and surpass what I can take advantage of given the type of driving I do - driving on public roads.

To me, not only is there not much fun in it, but I just don't like having to hold back the throttle to a high degree when driving spirited on public roads. The comment "It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast, then to drive a fast car slow" stands true for me. I enjoy running an engine wide open and squeezing everything I can from the vehicle - when I want to drive spirited. I like being able to actually do that while staying within legal limits as much as I can.

I used to feel a similar way though. The crazy thing is, I felt that way, and felt so strongly against a fun to drive car made for handling with "enough" power...... without ever actually driving one, much less driving on for an extended amount of time. That is why I was so shocked when I so quickly changed once I actually experienced it. It seems like most people I encounter that feel the same way as I used to, also never experienced such a car for themselves. My advice would be to drive one for a weekend on some of your own favorite roads and see what such cars actually have to offer - then report back and see if you still say "sure handling is nice.... but I want mega power!"

To put it in a real life situation, here is a video of my favorite local driving road. A 20-mile 55-mph limit strech from my small town to another of all sorts of turns and elevation changes. When I'm bored I'll go for a drive on this road, turn around when I get to the other town and come back, for a total of 40-miles of fun.

This was my '92 318iC - stock with 130hp. The inital acceleration in 1st gear was not WOT nor redline, 2nd gear was WOT. At no point at all durring this drive did I ever want more power, or feel the car was underpowered. The convertible chassis is a hefty ~3100lbs empty. Add a full tank of gas and my heavy butt and we aren't exactly talking a light weight car compared to others. The 4.27 gears kept the engine in its powerband, but most of all - made the car very fun to drive. The M42 loves to rev and mine went all the way to 7000RPM.

This car was a blast. The 4cyl handle slightly better then the 6cyl all else equal as there is less weight, less weight up front, and the engine weight is more rearward of the front wheels. This car was nothing special in terms of modifications - just stock with ~180k miles. Suspension was stock springs with cheap Monroe Sensatrac struts. Yet the car performed well. A better suspension would have been great, but there was no need for more engine. I got a $370 speeding ticket for doing 96 in a 70 (interstate) That stock N/A 18-year old, 180k mile 1.8L 4banger pushed the car to 125. The I6 went to 140. I have no desire or need to go any faster then that, and they both reached those speeds quick enough for me. These cars already beg to be driven fast and pushed to their limits. As it is now the "good enough" power output of the engine is what keeps me in check and from doing even more stupid things. Simply put, all more power in this car would allow me to do is accelerate faster - but it already accelerates fast enough for me.

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The '90 325iC has 3.73 gears as the engine has more torque. Gearing in the transmission is similar as is the weight of the car. The I6 is also driven differently then the 4, much more mid-range power, while the 4 loves to hang out at redline all day - something else I used to think was dumb until I actually drove such a car and now its so much fun.

Here is an '89 325i at Road Atlanta, judging from the sound and acceleration that engine appears to be stock or near stock. I'm excited to do this once my car is completed. Even then, since it will be a daily driver I don't see needing more power. If I had a dedicated track car and mastered the car at its limits and what it was capable of, at that time I would probably be looking for more power.

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93DevilleUSMC
08-30-10, 07:03 PM
You know, Rick, I think we were both making the same point earlier. Whether or not a vehicle is worth buying really comes down to what you want out of a car and can actually pay for. Same goes withdrag racing, track racing, and off-roading. It all comes down to the person and what excites them, and the means they have to pay for it.

Speaking of off-roading, we've still got to get together and go sometime!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-30-10, 07:14 PM
Off roading bores me. I've done it before and was always left unsatisfied. I like going fast and feeling confident knowing that my car can handle anything that's thrown at it and won't get all sorts of rock chips and scratches in it. That's why if I was going to go buy a car to go some sort of unusual "off road" driving with, I'd find an old BMW or Porsche and modify it to have fun with at the local auto-x track. To each his own and that's where I'd go if I had the means to do so. Now, I'm just happy to have a decently sporty midsized sedan that's fun enough to drive around, yet still reliable and economical enough to live with on a day to day basis.

Jesda
08-30-10, 07:23 PM
I'd like to try actual off-roading one day. I did it a few times in a Sentra. :P When I was a kid I used to play with my matchbox cars and take them into the dirt sometimes just to make tracks and get them dirty.

Destroyer
08-30-10, 09:37 PM
I am not discrediting drag racing. People have dedicated drag cars just like there are dedicated track cars and dedicated off-road rigs.

What I was getting at was - at what point does it become "enough" for a daily driver? I have talked to some people that say they need to drive to work in a 12-second car. I don't get it. I don't understand what thrill there is in daily driving a vehicle that you can not take enjoy to its fullest potential. If I owned a high-powered car it would bug the heck out of me and tempt me so bad because I would want to take advantage of it and use what it offers, but I am held back by public roads. Well my '04 Mach 1 idled like a stocker, drove like a stock car UNTIL you decided otherwise. It was also one hell of an Auto cross car with it's suspension and ran many times at Sebring. It also got acceptable mpg and ran 11's at the track. Pretty much a perfect performer and daily driver if need be. 10's were easily possible in that car with minimal suspension mods. Driving it "normal" was not an issue for me. If I raced on the streets it would not be at times there was traffic in the streets but still, I tried hard not too. You could drive it to it's full potential daily.........if you want a stack of tickets but why?


I mentioned my Jeep because while it is excellent and at home off-road, even if I never took it off-road, I would still enjoy what it has to offer. Driving around town, to work, or a cross country roadtrip with the top and doors off is an experience in itself. If one likes being in a convertible, then it's like a convertbile+++. Beyond that, it offers a "fun" to drive feeling. That may totally contridict anything I say about a road-driving car, but I find it an incredibly fun and involving vehicle to drive. Again, it's not for everyone, and this is my opinion. Now picture a vehicle that had another "dual purpose". Instead of off-roading, it could run high 10's or low 11's and still be a daily driver. Pretty cool car no?




One time when I was still in tech school living in FL, after class a guy in a beat up old 2wd 5spd 4cyl Ranger lined up with me at the light when I was in my '94 Isuzu Amigo, 2wd 4cyl 5spd. At that point it was on when the light turned green. These were two equally slow (and out of their place) vehicles... yet it was still a thrill. About a minute later when we reached 80 and backed off we were pretty much even. I was laughing so hard and it is still one of the most "fun" drag races I have been in. It dosen't matter how fast your vehicle is, the competition is still there. This just proves my point though, it took a while for the Isuzu to reach 80, but I was able to drive it to its limit and thats what made it fun. If I was in a vehicle that could reach 80 in 10-seconds and I always had to hold back when driving.... where is the practical use for it? You proved my point in that statement, not yours. Drag racing IS fun.


Perhaps because I am not much into competition in proving I am better then someone else is a reason why I don't enjoy drag racing. Personally in the auto sports I enjoy I couldn't care if the other person beats me or not. Off-road I like to sharpen my driving skills and put both myself and my vehicle tot he test to see what they can do, what the limit is, and push the limit. Same thing with the BMW, I want to take it to a race track when it's completed. I don't care about winning, I don't care if I am the slowest car there. I want to open it up and see what it can do and what I can do, and how I can improve. Far greater then not in these situations (off-road or track racing etc...) the driver is the limitation, not the vehicle, even a totally stock vehicle. There is alot of thrill in starting off in a stock vehicle and pushing it to its limits, seeing what needs to improve and becoming a better driver along the way.

That simply isn't there in drag racing. As was discussed in many other threads, real drag racers use automatic transmissions - among other reasons - to eliminate another form of human interaction and room for error. As such, once you learn how to properly launch a given vehicle from a stop, there really isn't a whole lot left to master or improve on. It's all based on the vehicle - want to go faster and improve against the competition? modify the engine to produce more power. I don't agree. Put 2 drivers in the same car and you will get very different timeslips. You gotta know how to launch it, what rpm to shift it and so forth.




Yes, there are a lot of ignorant people out there. Personally when it comes to "rednecks" and off-road, it most all centers around "muddin'" - of which I take no, or minimal part in. A typical truck for muddin is a fullsize pickup, the largest suspension lift and tires around, and mega power from the engine - as the entire goal of muddin is to keep wheel speed up which keeps momentum of the truck going. Actually doing it is brainless - stomp the gas and generally steer where you want to go. To me, it is sort of like drag racing.... except they steer.

Real "rednecks" usually don't have the money or means to properly build an off-road vehicle and instead do things like "muddin" mixed in with hunting and fishing to pass time. Personally after living in Georgia, I see alot more "real" rednecks driving stock, or stockish pickup trucks then I do driving any sort of modified off-road vehicle. It now gives me the vibe of pickup trucks in general being a "redneck thing"

I am not saying off-road is for everyone. It takes a certain person to enjoy it. Typically one must enjoy the outdoors and being exposed to the environment as well as having a sense for adventure.

There are many types of off-road activites too, pretty much anything you can do on road, you can do off. Rock climbing and hill climbing is fun but I also enjoy the adventure part - going away for a day/weekend/week away from everything and enjoying the world around us, things like this:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5996/19746559.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_2987.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3015.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3093.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3050.jpg

Going places and doing things most others don't

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/tim_w_sage/Colorado%20and%20Utah%20Jeep%20Trip/IMG_3070.jpg

Granted we don't have that enviornment here in the Southeast, but I take advantage of what I can. In the process - sharpening my driving skills and building my vehicle up to a point that I feel very confident taking a cross-country road trip to these places. Great pics you posted Rick. Off roading is something I would like to experience but that doesn't mean I'd like draggin' any less.




I never said it wasn't racing. That comment was in refernce to what what said by a co-worker about drifting. He got upset when I simply said (telling someone who didn't know) that drifting is a form of an automotive sport and used both drag racing and auto-x as an example of other forms. He got upset that I put drifting - apparently "fake" racing along side drag racing as examples of automotive sports.

I never said off-road in and of itself is a competition or a form of racing. Personally I don't care about competition against others - against myself, yes - as in challenging myself and my vehicle to do things I/it haven't done before I enjoy.

To answer your question though, the type of off-road I partake in would be considered recreational off-road, which as you said is more adventure then competition. But again, the competition isn't against others - as they are there to help you in many ways - spotting (eyes outside your vehicle) or getting unstuck etc... The challenge is against yourself - to push the capabilities of both you and your machine.

I don't have many videos of myself attacking challenging terrain, this would be one of the only ones as of yet. I am at the very start of the video, a rather basic hill climb. Hill climbs and rock crawling would be of the more technical parts of the type of off-road I do. This was when my Jeep was on stock suspension with 31s, unlike what one of the guys said - I do not have a rear locker. The first attempt was in 1st gear 4lo, as soon as the tires spun the engine went to redline. Second run was 2nd gear 4lo as it gave me more speed to carry thruough. This isn't the best example of a technical obstical at all, but even in a hill climb there are alot of techniques one can master with throttle, brakes, steering, weight transfer, picking a line etc.... The fun of it is to assess the situation before you start, put a plan together then put it to the test. If it works then you make it, if not then you start over, see what went wrong and what you can do to get around it - that is the type of challenge I personally enjoy.

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With that said, there are many types of competitive off-road activities....

such as Formula off-road:

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Or Baja. If I lived near the desert I'd build up a Toyota Tacoma Prerunner to be one heck of a high-speed off-road machine.

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Really, it just comes down to nearly all forms of off-road being cool :cool:

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There is just no thrill in that anymore. While not into drag racing, the appeal of that particular car would be just messing with others - a sleeper. Even then, the fun of driving around in a gas guzzling beast that can only go straight fast, waiting to stop at a light and line up next to someone with a performance car that actually gives a darn - eh, I'll pass.



I agree. You have mentioned a few times about being interested in off-road. If you are ever up this way or have a free weekend, come on up - there isn't a lot directly around me but a few hours North into the mountains there are lots of things. You could experience off-road and see if it is something you are still interested in, I could show you the basics of off-road driving too.All those videos you posted definately are appealing to me as is your offer to show me the basics of off road. I still wont agree that drag racing does not involve skill and isn't as fun. There were several here that cried "foul" at the video where the new 'Stang Destroys the Z28............it was blamed on driver error, not hardware and I agree, it would have been a better race if the Camaro had a driver as good as the one in the Mustang.

Night Wolf
08-30-10, 11:17 PM
Off roading bores me. I've done it before and was always left unsatisfied. I like going fast and feeling confident knowing that my car can handle anything that's thrown at it and won't get all sorts of rock chips and scratches in it. That's why if I was going to go buy a car to go some sort of unusual "off road" driving with, I'd find an old BMW or Porsche and modify it to have fun with at the local auto-x track. To each his own and that's where I'd go if I had the means to do so. Now, I'm just happy to have a decently sporty midsized sedan that's fun enough to drive around, yet still reliable and economical enough to live with on a day to day basis.

No doubt off-road stuff dosen't appeal to everyone. Typically one must enjoy the outdoors, have a sense of adventure and be willing to give up what many consider standard. Not just in vehicles, but this is true for any sort of "outdoor" stuff. The return is being able to do things and go places that most others' can not, as well as a sense of personal achivement.

Perhaps you just don't fit the lifestyle of being interested in off-road as a hobby, or perhaps the off-road situations that left you feeling unsatisfied were not the experiences you were after. Some people consider driving down a dirt road or splashing through mud puddles "off-roading", I don't.

Same with on-road autosports. Someone could partake in drag racing and feel nothing from it, then auto-x and have a blast - and vice versa, or someone could have no desire to do fast or corner hard, yet still enjoy cars and take their classic car to shows etc...

What got me into off-roading was first the feeling of adventure. To go places and do things the mass population dosen't or can't do. After experiencing it I noted a few things I really liked. One of the main things was - you are on your own. Generally speaking, there are no "laws" or time limits you must follow. The hobby can be fully enjoyed at your own pace and how ever you want. Unliked a dragstrip or auto-x where your actual "race" time may not even be 5-minutes for an entire day spent - the entire time you are off-road you can spend behind the wheel of your vehicle doing the hobby you came to do. You can go fast or slow. If you want to go back and do the same thing over you can - you can do the same thing all day if you'd like.

Driving spirited on public roads leaves a chance of getting ticketed for doing something illegal - even if not intended. The amount of other people around is usually greater as well which is an increased risk. Cheap ways to push your car would be a drag strip or auto-x event, both of which offer a very limited amount of time actually behind the wheel enjoying what you came to do vs the amount of time spent at the entire event.

Also for me personally - I enjoy "technical" things. I am a hands-on and technical person. I like to see things work, know how things work and actually operate things - one of the reasons I much prefer manual transmissions. I have found cartain types of off-roading to be highly technical. Being put in situations where the enviornment around you is not equal and you need to adjust for it. To get to an obstacle and know what your particular vehicle has and can do and to come up with a plan to overcome the obstacle. Sometimes you aren't sure what the entire obstacle entails, or if your vehicle can make it or not - that is where the fun comes in of pushing your personal limits and learning the limits of your vehicle. Sometimes you don't make it the first time, then you have the chance to try another plan and see if it works. There are so many variables and so many different things that are in your control, out of your control and can be changed - thats what makes the whole situation fun. Which is also why I am not all that interested in "brainless" type of off-road situations, such a mudding.


Speaking of off-roading, we've still got to get together and go sometime!

Dude, anytime man! I haven't gone in a while as all spare time and money is channeled into getting my car back on the road, but I want to go. A latter weekend in September I am going to be a River Rock - a private off-road park in Milledgeville. You are more then welcome to join along for the day/weekend if you'd like.

Jesda - same for you! Come down this way and stick around for more than an hour and we can go. Jeep sits two in the current configuration but can sit up to four. A few hours up North are miles and miles of trails through the mountains and forest service roads - which are a great introduction to see if it's your thing. There is also a state-owned off-road park up there that is alot of fun.

Heck this invite is open to anyone. If your in the area and want to go wheelin, just hit me up! I'm usually looking for an excuse to put the Jeep into 4lo :cool:

Night Wolf
08-30-10, 11:31 PM
Well my '04 Mach 1 idled like a stocker, drove like a stock car UNTIL you decided otherwise. It was also one hell of an Auto cross car with it's suspension and ran many times at Sebring. It also got acceptable mpg and ran 11's at the track. Pretty much a perfect performer and daily driver if need be. 10's were easily possible in that car with minimal suspension mods. Driving it "normal" was not an issue for me. If I raced on the streets it would not be at times there was traffic in the streets but still, I tried hard not too. You could drive it to it's full potential daily.........if you want a stack of tickets but why?

Now picture a vehicle that had another "dual purpose". Instead of off-roading, it could run high 10's or low 11's and still be a daily driver. Pretty cool car no?



You proved my point in that statement, not yours. Drag racing IS fun.

I don't agree. Put 2 drivers in the same car and you will get very different timeslips. You gotta know how to launch it, what rpm to shift it and so forth.



Great pics you posted Rick. Off roading is something I would like to experience but that doesn't mean I'd like draggin' any less.



All those videos you posted definately are appealing to me as is your offer to show me the basics of off road. I still wont agree that drag racing does not involve skill and isn't as fun. There were several here that cried "foul" at the video where the new 'Stang Destroys the Z28............it was blamed on driver error, not hardware and I agree, it would have been a better race if the Camaro had a driver as good as the one in the Mustang.

My original argument against drag racing wasn't that it wasn't fun - but that to daily drive a car capable of running very fast times in the 1/4mi - where and how often can that potential actually be used on public roads?

No doubt if I was behind the wheel of a high powered Trans Am I wouldn't be grinning from ear to ear - that rather basic Mustang GT I had for the weekend was fun. Then I had to assess the situation and I saw myself getting a stack of speeding tickets and not being able to drive the car to its' limit. I'm not saying the car wouldn't behave properly if used for daily driving, or it was not able to idle and drive around like a normal car - I am saying for myself, it would just bug the heck out of me to have a vehicle with a lot of power, that was mainly made for one thing - accelerating fast, and simply being forced to stay out of the throttle and push the car. Regardless of the car and how well it could mask its high performance for daily street tasks - it would just bug the heck out of me. I would first get frustrated but afterwards end up pushing my luck more and more on the road.

Basically, the main reason I am passing on daily driving a high powered car capable of accelerating fast is not because of any particular reason over a particular car - but because of myself. I know all the power being "there" but not being able to use it would drive me crazy, and I also know that it would just be a matter of time until I did use that power, and thats where bad/illegal/expensive stuff starts to happen.

I think at the end of it - we pretty much agree. My original statements were along the line of "just how much power do we need in daily driven vehicles" given our main limitation of public roads - speed limits/safety etc... I personally am not interested in drag racing as a whole, but I am not saying it isn't fun, that I haven't enjoyed it or that others don't or shouldn't.

I am serious about that offer too. If you are ever up this way or just want to plan a weekend getwaway in the mountains, let me know and I can meet up!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-30-10, 11:52 PM
I understand where you're coming from Rick. I know you're an outdoorsy sort of person and enjoy getting away for a while, even if by your self. I'm the opposite, I don't like camping, I don't like roughing it, I'm too....suburban. Keeping that in mind, it makes great sense now. My friend with the Jeeps ('98 Wrangler Sport, '01 Cherokee Sport) is more of an outdoorsman than I am. His family has a real nice 28' 5th wheel camper trailer that they have on a few acres of land in Northern Wisconsin. He really enjoys going up there and "roughing it" for a weekend. For me, it's too cramped...5 people in a relatively small trailer with no shower nor plumbing (it has a bathroom, he just never wants to fill up the reservoir tanks) so we have to use the latrine outside. Whenever we go up, he insists on offroading (and yes, he'll actually drive his Cherokee at really low speeds through the tight trails and stuff, so it's not anything as elementary as driving down a dirt road), and I never find pleasure in it. No offense, just not for me.

To me, there are two ways to get pleasure (haha) behind the wheel. Driving a capable car at high speeds, especially if you have to accelerate hard and really work your car to get there. That really gets my adrenaline pumping. Almost any car can do 100 MPH, heck I've even had my Astro up to 97 one day, but it wasn't fun...it was nerve wracking! What makes it fun is doing so in a car designed to run at those high speeds, especially if it has lots of power to make the trip to 100 a very short one. The other sort of driving that I always enjoyed is the nice leisurely cruise you can only really enjoy in a full sized (luxury) car. I find it so enjoyable that I actually don't mind sitting in traffic if I'm sitting behind the wheel (or in a passenger seat) of a really big luxo yacht. Exploring new parts of the city is very enjoyable to me, even if I'm getting only 13 MPG, and if it's an old luxury car, I don't care at all if it handles like the Titanic and accelerates like it too, that's not what they're meant for!

Night Wolf
08-31-10, 12:43 AM
Driving a capable car at high speeds, especially if you have to accelerate hard and really work your car to get there.

I agree, but that was also the point I was making about driving high powered cars. I like to push my vehicles to the limit and let them run flat out - doing so is possible much more often on lower powered vehicles. On a high powered vehicle there isn't much work (fun) - just add throttle.


The other sort of driving that I always enjoyed is the nice leisurely cruise you can only really enjoy in a full sized (luxury) car. I find it so enjoyable that I actually don't mind sitting in traffic if I'm sitting behind the wheel (or in a passenger seat) of a really big luxo yacht. Exploring new parts of the city is very enjoyable to me, even if I'm getting only 13 MPG, and if it's an old luxury car, I don't care at all if it handles like the Titanic and accelerates like it too, that's not what they're meant for!

I enjoy the same type of leisurely drive. For me it's different though. Instead of being confined inside my car, I like to be exposed to the outside, which is why I think a convertible makes a leisurely drive much more enjoyable. Many times when I am bored I'll go for a drive in the Jeep. Not fast or anything, just enjoy driving with the top and doors off and music playing.

As far as outdoor stuff, I tend to enjoy the adventure type stuff. Gotta becareful about saying things like that around here - locals take it personally. I do not hunt or fish nor do I find it appealing. Sometimes I listen to country music, but after living int he South, I really realized I don't fit the "country" thing well, at all.

billc83
08-31-10, 12:43 AM
So the argument against having a high powered car is not being able to enjoy it on public roads?

Just because we can't have sex in public doesn't mean I'm going to dump my girlfriend.

Stingroo
08-31-10, 01:16 AM
So the argument against having a high powered car is not being able to enjoy it on public roads?

Just because we can't have sex in public doesn't mean I'm going to dump my girlfriend.

[/thread]

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-31-10, 07:09 AM
That's what porta-potties are for my friend.

Night Wolf
08-31-10, 09:06 AM
So the argument against having a high powered car is not being able to enjoy it on public roads?

Just because we can't have sex in public doesn't mean I'm going to dump my girlfriend.

I don't find staring at my car in the garage or driveway or sitting in it playing with its' features, but not actually driving it to be all that fun of a pastime.

93DevilleUSMC
08-31-10, 10:47 PM
I think I'm working all the late weekends in September, but if not, I'll let you know.

Lord Cadillac
09-05-10, 01:52 PM
I've tried to read this discussion for like three days and every time I get some spare time, somebody interrupts me and I can't finish. So I'll just reply to the first few quotes I was able to put together...


Yeah, that Camaro was way late on the start.

Yeah. The new Mustang and Camaro are very, very close in a drag race. I'm going to guess the Mustang outhandles the Camaro - but I don't know that for sure. All I know is the Mustang is very fast and it handles just about as good as an M3. But it's not THAT much faster than the Camaro. That video should have an asterisk next to it. "Walking away from the Camaro..." - that's not how it would happen under normal circumstances. In fact, it could easily go the other way...


Rolex, they are still hugging BMW nut. They picked the M3 as their winner even though their professional driver called the Mustang as a winner.

The M3 won by like a fraction of a second or something like that - around the track. But a win is a win. After a million races, the Mustang finally beat the M3 in a straight line by a fraction of a second. Again, a win is a win. I don't think they're still "hugging BMW nut". If both cars perform the same and you have the money, you're probably going to by the BMW for the prestige and exclusivity (not everyone is going to have one) and the extras that a luxury sports car comes with. If you don't have the money, than you simply CANNOT buy the M3, and will buy the Mustang. I love both cars...


It's not. Look how bad the Camaro's RT was.

That vid is a joke IMO.

Right. That video sucks.


Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of M3 owners would ever consider a Mustang, with or without an IRS setup, but it would give another option to the sort of people who want the performance of a Corvette but want two more seats and don't wanna buy German or Japanese.

Nah, not many M3 owners will consider a Mustang. MANY Mustang owners would consider an M3 if they could afford one. BMW owners acknowledge the fact that the new Mustang 5.0 is very impressive...


I just don't "get it". "It" being drag racing.

I have done it, and it is fun. Fun for me to race my personal vehicles - not made for drag racing, just to see what they run. After that, it was boring.

Nobody likes to admit it because it's taboo - but the "fun" of drag racing is being able to beat the car next to you on the street. That's where most of the fun happens. The street. Not the track.

Destroyer
09-05-10, 10:41 PM
My original argument against drag racing wasn't that it wasn't fun - but that to daily drive a car capable of running very fast times in the 1/4mi - where and how often can that potential actually be used on public roads?Well, if you started jumping curbs and try to run over the Honda in front of you during rush hour would you not get a ticket? If you are driving on the road and see a cool piece of vacant land and decide to go "off roading" there would you not get a ticket? It's not like you can use your Jeep to it's potential while daily driving either. No, you have to go to the proper area to do that (legally). Then again, maybe you could get away with doing a little off roading on that vacant piece of land on the side of the road and maybe you could get away racing that Z28 (or whatever) next to you. I've done a lot of racing with very few tickets to show for it. Of course I have slowed down with age (and my lack of a fast car at the time being). It's all a matter of self control. I COULD drive an 11 second street car normally, others cannot. :thumbsup:

Night Wolf
09-06-10, 01:51 PM
Well, if you started jumping curbs and try to run over the Honda in front of you during rush hour would you not get a ticket? If you are driving on the road and see a cool piece of vacant land and decide to go "off roading" there would you not get a ticket? It's not like you can use your Jeep to it's potential while daily driving either. No, you have to go to the proper area to do that (legally). Then again, maybe you could get away with doing a little off roading on that vacant piece of land on the side of the road and maybe you could get away racing that Z28 (or whatever) next to you. I've done a lot of racing with very few tickets to show for it. Of course I have slowed down with age (and my lack of a fast car at the time being). It's all a matter of self control. I COULD drive an 11 second street car normally, others cannot. :thumbsup:

I understand what you are saying.

My original part about enjoying my Jeep on-road is that I can take the top and doors off and never leave the pavement, and I am still taking advantage of what the Jeep offers, that pretty much no other vehicle offers. It's a feeling that can't be compared to a regular convertible.

Destroyer
09-06-10, 02:02 PM
I understand what you are saying.

My original part about enjoying my Jeep on-road is that I can take the top and doors off and never leave the pavement, and I am still taking advantage of what the Jeep offers, that pretty much no other vehicle offers. It's a feeling that can't be compared to a regular convertible.
Don't make me take the doors off my Cutlass 'vert, lol. :D