: The Current JD Power Quality Rankings, hmmm



Ralph
08-24-10, 02:26 AM
do you put much faith in them??

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/ralph1239/jd-power-survey-420x0.jpg

Ralph
08-24-10, 02:28 AM
sorry about the Land Rover Ian :P I can't believe Toyota beat Chevy, but at least Cadillac beat BMW :)

Playdrv4me
08-24-10, 02:32 AM
sorry about the Land Rover Ian :P I can't believe Toyota beat Chevy, but at least Cadillac beat BMW :)

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Porsche at the top!

My RR was actually quite reliable, but I do realize that is the exception.

Ralph
08-24-10, 02:40 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around Porsche at the top!

Especially after the first Cayenne's were so terrible

Playdrv4me
08-24-10, 02:44 AM
Especially after the first Cayenne's were so terrible

Jesda's been looking at some Boxsters and apparently they have their own nightmares... like an internal defect resulting in complete engine replacements only covered by Porsche in CERTAIN goodwill circumstances.

Ralph
08-24-10, 02:49 AM
Jesda's been looking at some Boxsters and apparently they have their own nightmares... like an internal defect resulting in complete engine replacements only covered by Porsche in CERTAIN goodwill circumstances.

hmm, well I know a pilot and he told me all the other pilots bought Cayennes when they came out and some of them had cables rubbing on the front tires and braking failures, other probs with them, but I guess they worked hard and invested millions toward quality as of late. BTW we finally got a Porsche dealership here and I'm not too impressed with the new Turbo S....price 220,000. I'd rather have the new XJ Jag

Jesda
08-24-10, 03:03 AM
VDS reflects models from 3 years ago, so, what was Porsche building in 2007? I dont think the Cayman was out yet.

Ralph
08-24-10, 03:10 AM
VDS reflects models from 3 years ago, so, what was Porsche building in 2007? I dont think the Cayman was out yet.

I thought it was one or two years, not that much, whoa

no no not the Cayman, I mean the SUV Porsche, Cayenne :)

Jesda
08-24-10, 04:10 AM
07 DTS got the top spot among large premium cars.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/car-photos/VDS/Most-Dependable/2010

They misprinted the displacement though.

C&C
08-24-10, 06:45 AM
Look at the numbers; what do they really mean. The best has approximately 1 problem per car, the worst has approximately 2.5 problems per car; not as significant as the number suggest IMO. Though I suppose you can get a general idea of who is best, you can probably get a real good car from the bottom of the list or a real poor car from the top. (luck of the draw)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-24-10, 09:02 AM
Wow, Porsche at the top! Good job for them! I have a hard time believing any sort of a VW product would be above the average, but I've been proved wrong.

Ralph
08-24-10, 01:24 PM
Look at the numbers; what do they really mean. The best has approximately 1 problem per car, the worst has approximately 2.5 problems per car; not as significant as the number suggest IMO. Though I suppose you can get a general idea of who is best, you can probably get a real good car from the bottom of the list or a real poor car from the top. (luck of the draw)

True, I don't think that people really care about the numbers as much, but they are interesting. Look at VW, they were always near the bottom for years (along with Kia) but VW's are everywhere, people buy them like hotcakes. Does that mean people don't bother researching a vehicle before they buy? I see a lot of Land Rovers out there. Kia improved drastically and I bet they will be near the top in a few years....the Koreans are serious about riding on the back of the Japanese, learning from them and being the best oneday. Even the worst rated Land Rover today would be better than anything built 5 or 10 years ago likely. Everything is better overall, especially compared to anything built in the '70's or 1980's

Sandy
08-24-10, 06:53 PM
My daily driver, is the 3rd of the brand, that I have bought new, and they are 100% correct. 1986 Lincoln, followed ny 1998 Lincoln, and currently 2003 Lincoln.
'86 Mrk 6; 1998 Mark 8 and 2003 Town Car "The Limited" (Just 340 made of this top model). 1 problem (small) with the 86, no problems with the 98, nor the 2003.
They deserve the #2 spot. My next will be another Lincoln, but not that super duper ugly MKS. A Mercury Sable in Drag. I have sat on park benchs that were more comfortable than the back seats of the MKS. 2011 is THE last year for the Town Car. With the new Watts Suspension (began in 2000 I think) they handle great, and are even a bit "tossable". Cloud smooth ride and so many exclusive included features, like a self closing trunk lid, from the fully opened position;
Self raising hood once you lift it 3 inches, keyless exterior key pad to unlock driver door, all doors or just trunk lid, glove compartments in both front door's door panels, and they live on & on . Cabbies in N.Y. all drive them and get 3000,000 miles outta them, most limos in NYC bringing mega millionaires are brought to all the Broadway Shows in them, There are almost more T.C.s in NYC than taxi-cabs.

orconn
08-24-10, 08:07 PM
Yup, it seems that when it comes livery service cars, Lincoln TC's rule the roost. Wonder what will replace them?

CIWS
08-24-10, 09:33 PM
Cadillac has dropped below Mercedes now. That's not good.

drewsdeville
08-24-10, 09:33 PM
My daily driver, is the 3rd of the brand, that I have bought new, and they are 100% correct. 1986 Lincoln, followed ny 1998 Lincoln, and currently 2003 Lincoln.
'86 Mrk 6; 1998 Mark 8 and 2003 Town Car "The Limited" (Just 340 made of this top model). 1 problem (small) with the 86, no problems with the 98, nor the 2003.
They deserve the #2 spot. My next will be another Lincoln, but not that super duper ugly MKS. A Mercury Sable in Drag. I have sat on park benchs that were more comfortable than the back seats of the MKS. 2011 is THE last year for the Town Car. With the new Watts Suspension (began in 2000 I think) they handle great, and are even a bit "tossable". Cloud smooth ride and so many exclusive included features, like a self closing trunk lid, from the fully opened position;
Self raising hood once you lift it 3 inches, keyless exterior key pad to unlock driver door, all doors or just trunk lid, glove compartments in both front door's door panels, and they live on & on . Cabbies in N.Y. all drive them and get 3000,000 miles outta them, most limos in NYC bringing mega millionaires are brought to all the Broadway Shows in them, There are almost more T.C.s in NYC than taxi-cabs.

Lets be realistic here...sure an MKS is just an ugly Sable. But then, a Lincoln TC is merely an overpriced Crown Vic (vomit comet, if you will) with leather seats and climate control.

I'll give you the thumbs up on the ride quality. Nothing rides like a full frame. But an extensive features list it does NOT have, especially in comparison to others in it's class.

I've driven my fair share of panthers over the years. And no, no panther ever handled well. Feel was improved in '03 with rack and pinion and there was the attempt in 1998 to improve handling with the watts linkage, though I personally don't think it made much difference.

For what one was getting, the TC became less and less of a value as time went on. The whole platform became a "parts bin" line and nearly all of the variants offered the same thing minus the sheet metal. Hell, you could even get a Crown Victoria LX or a Grand Marquis LS HPP optioned out just like a TC.

At least the Mercury Grand Marquis was more reasonably priced. It was usually available quite a bit cheaper than the TC and was available with most of the options the TC was. That and after the TC's sheetmetal redesign in '98, the Grand Marquis was a far better looking car (Of course this is subjective).

None of the above is to say everything was all bad. Like stated, when it came to fleet and livery, the TC was available quite cheaply in comparison the competition. They offered reliable service at a cheap price, exactly what that industry needs.

While I feel there's great value for fleet, I think the TC slowly became a horrible value when it came to the general consumer...at least in it's last 10 years.

Playdrv4me
08-24-10, 10:53 PM
Hmm... Before we got the LS430, I seriously considered a Town Car Ultimate or Cartier L (those were the top of the line models for each given year). The TC is the closest domestic alternative to the LS430 and has all the features we cared about (plush interior with gobs of space, road cruiser character, xenon headlights and a great stereo... which is all it really needs). I also think the 2003 and up redesign looks beautiful, especially with the many wheel choices there have been from '03 to 2010. Really the only thing that kept us out of one after all was said and done was just the fact that we don't keep cars too long, and the Lincoln, while technically "good" for a domestic, still has very poor resale overall as the miles rack up.

There will not really be anything in the domestic marketplace to replace that car when it is gone. Even the DTS lacks the big car feel of the TC.

Destroyer
08-24-10, 11:02 PM
Everything is better overall, especially compared to anything built in the '70's or 1980's
No, not really. You MUST take into account the relatively cheaper costs to repair a vehicle from the 70's and 80's. It's easy to pass a comment like you just did but aside from a lack of performance the cars of the 70's and 80's were reliable and didn't ask for much. They didn't boogie like a Northstar but they didn't have $4k H/G jobs either. :cool2:

orconn
08-25-10, 12:22 AM
I totally agree with Ralph if you are talking about build quality and driving dynamics. 1970 thru 1980 American cars were pretty shoddy and handled and performed crudely ay best. During the 1980's I owned only European cars, and that continued until the early 21st century. It wasn't that I wanted my hard earned dollars to go abroad but rather that American carmakers weren't making anything that I could enjoy owning.

The relative cheaper cost of repair was offset by the cost of miserable performance and very disappointing quality control. Todays American cars deliver the performance that they do at a cost of considerably more complexity. For me that is a fair trade off, for those that value less expensive upkeep over performance at reasonable MPG there are plenty of nice '80s cars out there to meet their priorites.

Jesda
08-25-10, 01:00 AM
TBJimSho was talking a while back about how the later Town Cars (after 03?) have been decontented, using cheaper materials and giving fewer special luxury features. You still get the big body full frame cushy car, but some of the little niceties are gone.

Jesda
08-25-10, 01:04 AM
No, not really. You MUST take into account the relatively cheaper costs to repair a vehicle from the 70's and 80's. It's easy to pass a comment like you just did but aside from a lack of performance the cars of the 70's and 80's were reliable and didn't ask for much. They didn't boogie like a Northstar but they didn't have $4k H/G jobs either. :cool2:

It depends. You had less electronic/expensive stuff going wrong, but you had lower quality wiring, much more corrosion, finicky ignition systems, and less total longevity.

The cars made today, at least mass market automobiles, are designed to last 150-200k without major repairs, and most of them do -- and the bodies and interiors stay together too. But when those repairs do finally happen, they tend to cost more.

Today's car is less of a nuisance for the average Joe.

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:04 AM
look at how Ford has been starving Lincoln for the last 10 years, what's really new? Compare the Escalade to the Nav and the Caddy has 100 HP more. Sure they got a couple new SUV's but nothing major

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:08 AM
No, not really. You MUST take into account the relatively cheaper costs to repair a vehicle from the 70's and 80's. It's easy to pass a comment like you just did but aside from a lack of performance the cars of the 70's and 80's were reliable and didn't ask for much. They didn't boogie like a Northstar but they didn't have $4k H/G jobs either. :cool2:

Actually if you consider what wages were back then, they were nothing. In my dad's Gulf service station I remember when an engine new cost $800, and when you are making $2.00 an hour it balances out. When my Step dad bought the Olds 442 in 1971, the price was $6500 CDN. That would be like 30,000 today.

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:16 AM
No, not really. You MUST take into account the relatively cheaper costs to repair a vehicle from the 70's and 80's. It's easy to pass a comment like you just did but aside from a lack of performance the cars of the 70's and 80's were reliable and didn't ask for much. They didn't boogie like a Northstar but they didn't have $4k H/G jobs either. :cool2:

Sure cars were Easier to fix in the 1970's but the quality was shit. In 1979 I went to the Dodge Dealership and we looked at a brand new truck in the show room (the year they went bankrupt) and you could literally slide your hand between the window-door weatherstripping an the frame and the door was closed!!! The salesman was so effing embarrassed it was pathetic what Chrysler was putting into the showrooms back them. Even a shit KIA will be 1,000 times better than that truck ;)

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:21 AM
The cars made today, at least mass market automobiles, are designed to last 150-200k without major repairs, and most of them do -- and the bodies and interiors stay together too. But when those repairs do finally happen, they tend to cost more.

Today's car is less of a nuisance for the average Joe.

I agree. Labour costs now are insane but also back in the 1970's my dad was not able to charge an extra fee for things like "Shop Supplies" and they could not claim their tools as a "Buisness Expense" like mechanics can now, and when you have to buy $5,000 in tools after graduating automotive mechanics today, it is obvious why they charge such wacky prices...all to get it back maybe?. But I think overall, prices are relative.

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:26 AM
I totally agree with Ralph if you are talking about build quality and driving dynamics. 1970 thru 1980 American cars were pretty shoddy and handled and performed crudely ay best.

.

Yeah totally, I would agree with that

Ralph
08-25-10, 01:27 AM
BTW, good to see you Dave and Sandy

Playdrv4me
08-25-10, 11:10 PM
TBJimSho was talking a while back about how the later Town Cars (after 03?) have been decontented, using cheaper materials and giving fewer special luxury features. You still get the big body full frame cushy car, but some of the little niceties are gone.

No, 2003 was the first year of the redesign and the year with the most features of that body style. They slowly removed options and trims each year after that, starting with the removal of the Cartier branded trim altogether in 2004 (replaced with the "Ultimate" trim borrowed from the Navigator).

There was a point at which you could get Xenon headlights, GPS Nav, an Alpine stereo and a host of other items in the TC that actually made it SEMI competitive with its more modern rivals. However I think much of that has since been removed.

Jesda
08-25-10, 11:11 PM
Actually I think he was talking about decontenting since 2000.

2003 got rack and pinion steering, yes, but there was less stuff to distinguish it from CV and MGM.

drewsdeville
08-27-10, 11:48 AM
Actually I think he was talking about decontenting since 2000.

2003 got rack and pinion steering, yes, but there was less stuff to distinguish it from CV and MGM.

:yup:

Unless you include price...If you really wanted to pay too much for a Crown Vic with leather seats, the TC was your car.

Lord Cadillac
08-27-10, 01:27 PM
Cadillac has dropped below Mercedes now. That's not good.

Mercedes was getting a really bad reputation for awhile there. They knew very well how problematic the S-Class was during the early 2000s and said they'd make amends. They did.

Sandy
08-29-10, 02:08 AM
I think that Lincoln is going to give up Livery sales, (which I do not undersatnd...) and let Cadillac take over with the stretch version of the DTS.
They will never sell the idea of the MKS as a luxury livery car. IF I will not buy it (the MKS) THAT tells 'ya something !!
IF IF IF I was to buy somethig .... (I am not) But if, it would be a 2011 Buick Lucerne SUPER with Caddy's V-8 NorthStar and ALL the options !
Black, very dark black not light Black, but black-black with black leather.

drewsdeville
08-29-10, 09:58 AM
Livery sales are easy to give up because they are very low profit. Those sales are a great boost if you already have a platform out there making money, but no platform can profit solely on fleet sales.

This is exactly why the CV, MGM, and TC have died and are being pulled from the lineup. Civilian sales have whithered away to nothing and fleet sales are not enough to justify keeping the vehicles around.

Since 2008 Ford has been selling the Panther as fleet-only as they wind down production. Looking at some old data, as of June 2009 there were only 6635 total panthers sold, 3580 of which were Crown Vics.

Stingroo
08-29-10, 10:02 AM
Sandy, Northstar production has ended, so I don't think you can get a Lucerne Super anymore.