: Thinking about selling...



sapien
08-14-10, 02:19 AM
On occasion, I drive a 2005 STS N* V8. Moonstone metallic with the light gray interior, RWD, 1SF, the optional 18"s, nav, MRC, E&G grille, tint etc. Only 28K miles on it, not a daily driver. Super nice and beautiful car, but I find it a bit boring.

Is it me or the car? if the Classifieds worked here I'd be tempted to post it.

Hmm that 3.6L CTS with AWD and the Ultraview roof really catches my eye...

CadillacSTS42005
08-14-10, 09:55 AM
Had one for a week while my sts4 was in for service. What a joke smaller cramped interior buttons throwns all over the place it looks way too much like they tried to make it flashy and it came out horrid. You will miss the northstar power and torque as well. The only advantage of a cts is the fuel economy. The only nice thing about it is the 6 speed auto stick will let you downshift into redline while a sts with updated pcm cal to fix the chuggle will not.

chagrin falls
08-14-10, 10:34 AM
Hey Sapien-I had the exact feelings on my 06 SG with 17k miles. I traded for a 10 CTS Premium AWD Vanilla Latte/Cashmere in July. MSRP was $52k with 3k miles. I absolutely love it! Much more user friendly than the STS. Sure, there are a few things I miss that my STS had that are not available on the CTS-heads up and heated steering wheel. I loved the North Star System but the 3.6 has plenty of punch. I wanted to get out of the STS while the "getting was good". The depreciation/resale of the STS is ridiculous. I don't have time or the patience to sell my cars in the "classifieds" so I traded it. The dealer gave me a little over $19k for the STS and put it on their lot for $23.9. The MSRP on the STS was around $62k-so in 4 years and 17k miles the car lost $38k. It sold within 3 weeks and they probably got $22k for it. It was a beautiful car with an E&G grill and Corsa exhaust and was flawless. But with the 0% Cadillac financing, $1.5k Cadillac coupon, and $7k off the sticker it was a no brainer. I had a GM extended warranty on the STS and that put another $900. in my pocket when I cancelled the contract. Go drive the CTS for a weekend-you will love it!! The 0% financing expires early in Septemer!

KRSTS
08-14-10, 01:06 PM
IMHO POS compared to STS

EChas3
08-14-10, 01:10 PM
sapien - Sounds like you've got a sweet ride. I tihink you'll like the 3.6 CTS. But make sure to check the competition before leaping. Personnally, I find the STS smaller than I'd prefer already!

I'm a little surprised you want AWD in Viginia. If you see snow it's cold enough to miss the heated steering wheel - a lot!

chagrin falls
08-14-10, 01:33 PM
Hey EChas-I live in Cleveland-Sapien lives in Virginia-he is the one thinking of the CTS. Just giving my reasons for going to the CTS from the STS. The only "competion" I look at are the other GM divisions. I live in America, own a company in America and have only bought American/GM products for 40 years. I have had a ton of GM cars (including a 81 Olds Regency with a diesel) with absolutely 0 problems. With the cars being made in America today there is no excuse to buy an import. Take a Buick badge off a new Enclave and put the Lexus L on it and I bet there would be no contest. Just my humble opinion...

EChas3
08-14-10, 06:30 PM
Oops, my confusion. I did try a Lincoln last time. I'm happier back in GM. Best car I ever owned (before the STS) was a '93 Roadmaster that was a member of the 'Drive it to the Moon' club (at closest approach). I prefer an American car but that distinction is fading. The ownership and manufacturing of car companies is more international than ever. All makes source parts world-wide. Who owns GM? Who really owns Ford stock? Mercedes, Fiat, Kia, etc?

If you're buying used, it's easy to make the case that the manufacture's home is irrelevant. The new car purchase price has already been paid. Profit on used cars is effectively local.

I hate the cars getting smaller. It will get worse as the new CAFE standards are felt. I don't want a truck or SUV but I expect it to become hard to get an American V8 car. The STS suits me better than any other car I could find when I decided to unload the Lincoln. I looked at all the competition and test drove most of them.

The average cost of driving a car is nearly $9,000 (IRS std ded x 15,000 miles). Of course, that includes insurance & gas but that's the average. It only makes sense to compare & contrast alternatives. Everyone gets to weight their own priorities.

The STS is a blast to drive and has great toys. A used one is a bargin.

fps_dean
08-14-10, 07:07 PM
Well if it was me, I would definitely stick with the STS. The only thing that's available in the CTS that you can't get in the STS is the 40gb hard drive which I wouldn't mind but mp3 cds do get the job done.

turnne
08-14-10, 11:13 PM
Hey EChas-I live in Cleveland-Sapien lives in Virginia-he is the one thinking of the CTS. Just giving my reasons for going to the CTS from the STS. The only "competion" I look at are the other GM divisions. I live in America, own a company in America and have only bought American/GM products for 40 years. I have had a ton of GM cars (including a 81 Olds Regency with a diesel) with absolutely 0 problems. With the cars being made in America today there is no excuse to buy an import. Take a Buick badge off a new Enclave and put the Lexus L on it and I bet there would be no contest. Just my humble opinion...

wow..you have had 0 problems on that Diesel olds?
You must be like that 2% that didn't

I was in high school when they were selling those as well as that Cadillac V8-6-4
Both huge POS

Can you say recall and engine failures...That has to be the worst time GM's history and caused the Japanese to grab a huge foothold
A good of mine's parents bought brand new Sedan De Ville diesel in 1981...engine replacement on GM's dime one year later
The Realtor that sold my parents the house that we moved into in 1980 had a Seville Diesel...1979 model....engine replaced in 1981 via GM

Those diesels had such a poor reputation that it was take the typical poor Cadillac resale of the time and deduct another 25% from that

I am not sure what you mean by putting the L on the Enclave?

I guess I would ask since you haven't owned anything else...right?
what is your basis for comparison?


Warren

turnne
08-14-10, 11:19 PM
Hey Sapien-I had the exact feelings on my 06 SG with 17k miles. I traded for a 10 CTS Premium AWD Vanilla Latte/Cashmere in July. MSRP was $52k with 3k miles. I absolutely love it! Much more user friendly than the STS. Sure, there are a few things I miss that my STS had that are not available on the CTS-heads up and heated steering wheel. I loved the North Star System but the 3.6 has plenty of punch. I wanted to get out of the STS while the "getting was good". The depreciation/resale of the STS is ridiculous. I don't have time or the patience to sell my cars in the "classifieds" so I traded it. The dealer gave me a little over $19k for the STS and put it on their lot for $23.9. The MSRP on the STS was around $62k-so in 4 years and 17k miles the car lost $38k. It sold within 3 weeks and they probably got $22k for it. It was a beautiful car with an E&G grill and Corsa exhaust and was flawless. But with the 0% Cadillac financing, $1.5k Cadillac coupon, and $7k off the sticker it was a no brainer. I had a GM extended warranty on the STS and that put another $900. in my pocket when I cancelled the contract. Go drive the CTS for a weekend-you will love it!! The 0% financing expires early in Septemer!

The resale is hideous...I bought mine 4 years old for 27% of the sticker
HOWEVER..that's why I bought it
Resale is only a bad deal if you are either GM...if the car is leased..or the first owner..if it was retail purchase
I say let one of them eat that cash...I will but it for 72% off the sticker 4 years later
I don't care for the CTS...however..it seems to be more well respected in the marketplace as the resale is considerably better than the STS..in fact in 5 years or so they are worth about the same amount


Warren

sapien
08-15-10, 01:06 AM
sapien - Sounds like you've got a sweet ride. I tihink you'll like the 3.6 CTS. But make sure to check the competition before leaping. Personnally, I find the STS smaller than I'd prefer already!

I'm a little surprised you want AWD in Viginia. If you see snow it's cold enough to miss the heated steering wheel - a lot!
Are you aware of the winter we had in the DC area?! My STS sat in the driveway for the better part of 3 months surrounded by snowbanks up to the roofline. I don't even drive it if it rains much... My daily driver is an AWD Honda Element that loves to get dirty :)

Not sure that I would actually buy a CTS (and I would only consider the 300HP version), I just think it's a nice(r) looking car. Other than my dislike for BMWs, I certainly wouldn't rule out comparable cars like an IS350, RL or G37x. But my practical side says I'd get more use out of an upscale SUV than another sedan.

There's no way I would buy a brand new Caddy, the depreciation is insane! I bought mine in 2007 with just 14K miles on it, at less than half price of a similarly-optioned new one. Got a similar good deal on my wife's Dodge Ram.

chagrin falls
08-15-10, 01:57 AM
Hey Warren-I don't want to get too off track here as I was only giving my opinion on the new CTS and American manufactured cars in general. Believe me there were years that American car manufacturers put out real junk. But they were the only game in town and people were stuck with bad design and engineering. It's a totally different story today. Until Oldsmobile was phased out, that is all I drove. And yes, I had no problems or issues with the 81 diesel. I started out with Cutlass Supremes and drove Ninety Eights, Toronadoes, and Auroras. When Olds was gone, I switched to Cadillac and purchased a 01 DTS, the 06 STS and now the 10 CTS Premium. I've also had Corvettes all my life and just sold a 2004 Commerative Roadster. And I have never had one problem or issue with anyone of them. My 84 Biarritz has the 4100 engine and no problems at 56k miles. I take care of my cars and always take them to the dealer for any service. I realize I am the exception to the rule as far as being problem free with my cars. I am only making a statement that the American car buying populace needs to take a serious look at the products of todays GM, Ford and Chrysler. And I don't want to hear that XYZ car is built in America. The profits still are returned to their home country. The good news is that these companies are employing Americans that provide a living for their families and the economy. The same can be said for the Big 3 that manufacture outside the USA. But the profits come back to the American economy. I have many friends who buy imports and they have as many problems if not more than what I hear of American cars. Let's not even talk about the repair costs for import cars. So many people are caught up in the status of the brand (Lexus, Range Rover, MB, etc) . I'm only saying that if you took the Buick badging off the Enclave, Regal, and Lacrosse and put the Lexus badging on them, the die hard import status buyers would be hard pressed to tell the difference. And that also goes for Chrysler and Ford. Even with the economic/politcal mess we are in, I still believe in American manufacturing. Nothing drives me more crazy than seeing a car with a Veteran's license plate on an import. End of story......

turnne
08-15-10, 11:51 AM
Interesting
I would call you very lucky in your past experience..as I am sure you know you have owned some very, historically speaking, some problematic products

I agree with you that the American products of today are much better than they were 20 years ago....but I do believe that is the case with all brands
The repair costs among brands....at the same price point..is really not that much different..in my experience
IE...I have noticed that the repair costs at the Cadillac dealer are right in with those I experienced that the BMW dealer
I believe that people should buy what they want and can afford....the whole "buy American" is not any where close to a clean line...ie....the best selling cars...Accord, Camry, Corolla, Civic..are all built in the US. My thought is that there are hundreds of thousands of people all over the country that make a living and support their families by the manufacturing and sale of just those 4 cars

Not to hijack this thread..but there is one more point I think that makes a difference here and it was touched on earlier
One of the big issues, in my mind, has been the low resale of these cars...as quickly as the values fall you could get a used car buyer who can afford to buy the car but really cant afford to maintain it
Or alternatively someone who likes at what the car is worth and makes the decision that a major repair is not worth it
A couple of example.....as you likely know some of the pre 01 Nothstars were somewhat infamous for head gasket issues......this created some junkyard inventory of cars that were in good physical shape but the owner decided it wasn't worth it to do the engine repair. In fact my Cadillac dealer won't even do a HG job..the adviser told me that replace the engine
Second example...last year I owned a 02 STS with 122K on it...pristine shape..Cadillac dealer serviced. I got $3500 for a trade in...I believe I could have gotten about $4500 in a retail sale. My thought was that if I have to replace the suspension it going to be more than the car is worth
No thanks.....
If you are going to keep the car forever..probably doesn't matter
I always do the cost of a car...acquisition costs plus repair cost minus what you get for the car at the end of your ownnership
I think they call call True cost of ownership..there are some information online about it
In any case if you run these numbers that way...the variability of cost between cars in the same class has some huge variables. That Lexus you mention in your post actually become a inexpensive, speaking relative in it's class, vehicle
You can use the same math for Camry vs Impala..etc..based on what the Camry is worth after 5 years of ownership...who spent more?


Warren

fps_dean
08-15-10, 12:38 PM
I'm only saying that if you took the Buick badging off the Enclave, Regal, and Lacrosse and put the Lexus badging on them, the die hard import status buyers would be hard pressed to tell the difference. And that also goes for Chrysler and Ford. Even with the economic/politcal mess we are in, I still believe in American manufacturing. Nothing drives me more crazy than seeing a car with a Veteran's license plate on an import. End of story......

I generally agree with you except if you put a Lexus badge on a Chrysler or Dodge, a 4 year old could tell the difference because the Chrysler tupperware interiors are designed and manufactured by Rubbermaid -- and that said I've never been a fan of Toyota/Lexus was very good with interiors, but even the Corolla interior is every bit as nice as a 300C interior in terms of design and materials (although the 300C is very well engineered -- as a larger person I love the room in the car even if it is made of tupperware).

With all of Toyota/Lexus problems, what educated person would still buy one? People get their gas pedals and floor mats replaced and still have the car accelerate on them for no reason (because the problem is with a fauly computer system apparently, but that costs a whole lot more to replace than a gas pedal and to modify floor mats!).

And as far as the Oldsmobile 350 diesel, there is a video on youtube of one that still runs with some ungodly amount of miles, at least 200k, maybe 300k. The owner did several rather minor modifications to the engine which he said is why he's had no problems, but I couldn't believe it, I thought everyone of those was in the junkyard by 1989 or 50000 miles, whichever came first.



I don't care for the CTS...however..it seems to be more well respected in the marketplace as the resale is considerably better than the STS..in fact in 5 years or so they are worth about the same amount

I
Warren

I've seen 05 CTS's selling for about 55% of what a 05 STS goes for, at least on the MA/CT market, but the average CTS and STS is only 3-4 thousand dollars apart, which when I got mine is exactly why I didn't seriously consider a CTS. But if I really wanted a CTS, I can find a pre 2007 with about 60k as low as $10,000.

turnne
08-15-10, 02:48 PM
I generally agree with you except if you put a Lexus badge on a Chrysler or Dodge, a 4 year old could tell the difference because the Chrysler tupperware interiors are designed and manufactured by Rubbermaid -- and that said I've never been a fan of Toyota/Lexus was very good with interiors, but even the Corolla interior is every bit as nice as a 300C interior in terms of design and materials (although the 300C is very well engineered -- as a larger person I love the room in the car even if it is made of tupperware).

With all of Toyota/Lexus problems, what educated person would still buy one? People get their gas pedals and floor mats replaced and still have the car accelerate on them for no reason (because the problem is with a fauly computer system apparently, but that costs a whole lot more to replace than a gas pedal and to modify floor mats!).

And as far as the Oldsmobile 350 diesel, there is a video on youtube of one that still runs with some ungodly amount of miles, at least 200k, maybe 300k. The owner did several rather minor modifications to the engine which he said is why he's had no problems, but I couldn't believe it, I thought everyone of those was in the junkyard by 1989 or 50000 miles, whichever came first.




I've seen 05 CTS's selling for about 55% of what a 05 STS goes for, at least on the MA/CT market, but the average CTS and STS is only 3-4 thousand dollars apart, which when I got mine is exactly why I didn't seriously consider a CTS. But if I really wanted a CTS, I can find a pre 2007 with about 60k as low as $10,000.
Agreed...those interiors are not a Chrysler strong point
But to be fair..I once looked at a Bonneville SSEI a few years ago...and frankly was amazed at how plastic fantastic that looked

You have to to wonder if that 300 buyer really cares about a great interior?
Its American..its V8 and its RWD...that could be 90% of the criteria for its intended market
And it does have quite a bit of 15 year old Mercedes Benz technology...the steering..trans and even that "smartkey" technology....right out of a 1996 Mercedes E class
Its a cheap date...especially on the 3-4 year old used car market

As for the old diesel..I, like you, had never seen one make it to 50K miles. I may have to look that one up on you tube

As for the CTS to STS value......when you say 55%...do you mean between the used car values?
I don't see anything like that in Texas or Ohio...where I spend most of time in a year....while the two..loaded could have like what a $15K difference?
The same two cars 4 years later are about $2K difference in price


Even with the Toyota/Lexus issues...and I will concentrate on the Lexus...they are still holding resale well so I would guess the market does not buy into the issues...when it comes to a Lexus anyway

Like you..I was really never a fan of Lexus...having driven German cars for 20 years they were always too soft and cushy for my taste
BUT....I think they have taken a lot of Cadillac business from that buyer who would have been the target audience 20 years ago...and I am including the Toyota Avalon in this....
There is buyer out there that likes a cushy smooth quiet car that is at its best cruising down the road at an unhurried pace
They have had 20 years of great history and have frankly done some things that are amazing...and done them right off the bat..ie...building a very refined V8 right off the bat that was as refined and reliable( or more so) than companies that had been building V8's for years
And there are numerous 90's era LS400 that have over 200K that are still daily drivers...and they are still worth a few dollars even at 15 years old and 200K miles on the clock
You can look at a Caddy or Lincoln from that time period...for a 15 year model with 200K a new set of good tires will likely cost more than the car is worth
I don't know what the numbers are for percentage of cars on the road( vs those originally) after 15 years...Mercedes used to have that crown
However ..if I were a betting man I would bet , in the luxury bracket, that would be a Lexus vehicle today


Warren

fps_dean
08-15-10, 04:49 PM
Hey turnne, you live in Texas. From online listings I've seen, the prices of used cars in Texas seem to be extremely buyer favorable. From what I've seen, Texas seems to be the best state/market to buy a used car -- if I'm missing something, it's definitely one of the best. I've never found a shortage of great buys in auctions from Texas.

I occasionally see super cheap CTS's for sale that look perfectly legitimate selling in the 10-12k range. Of course I live in a very depressed area but occasionally, although very rarely you can find a deal like this. A normal price for a base '05 CTS with 60k is 13-16k where a base STS might be 17-20k, depending who is selling it which IMO means the STS is a better buy. Like I said though you might find something cheaper if you're willing to look hard enough.

Toyota's quality (Lexus included) in more recent years is more buzz than hype, and even with recent issues they aren't terrible if they'd fix them etc. but their quality isn't near what it used to be and I also think the average quality of cars is much better than it was 15-25 years ago as well, maybe excluding Kia/Hyundai which are as bad as ever (believe me, they are). If you look at some older Toyota or Lexus models, they really target the 80+ year old crowd, the crowd Cadillac was targeting a few years back, and they've been doing a good job of marketing and selling to this crowd. I do have to say the resale prices are outrageous though, I would definitely never look at one used for this reason. I see plenty of Lexus cars, regardless of the model from the 90s with 200k or almost for sale around $3000, but keep in mind anything that runs (not well) and will get a sticker will bring in around $2500 and no less than $1800 unless you have connections. But I never do see any for sale above 205k at all.

As far as a set of tires being worth more than the car -- it's worth it if the car is worth it to you. Sometimes not having a car payment, if there's not much else terribly wrong with the car is easily worth four new tires. If it was a late 80s FWD Cadillac (which are some of my least favorite Cadillacs ever), it would be enough to get me to trade it in. If it was a 90s Deville, which while FWD, did have a great soft ride, it would be worth not having a car payment, if you know what I mean.

As for cars still on the road 15+ years later, for 80s models, it definitely has to be Mercedes at least as far as the luxury market. In the 90s, I would go with BMW at least counting cars that are driven more than an occasional trip to the grocery store twice a week.

It definitely would be cheaper to drive a Lexus for 200k, but I'm fairly sure more people keep their older, higher mileage BMWs around longer. I do see plenty of Lexus, Acura, Cadillac and Mercedes models still around. I'd say Audi has to be a clear loser in this area, because the last time I saw one older than '99 was probably at least five years ago.

EChas3
08-15-10, 04:54 PM
I always do the cost of a car...acquisition costs plus repair cost minus what you get for the car at the end of your ownnership
I think they call call True cost of ownership..there are some information online about it
In any case if you run these numbers that way...the variability of cost between cars in the same class has some huge variables. That Lexus you mention in your post actually become a inexpensive, speaking relative in it's class, vehicle
You can use the same math for Camry vs Impala..etc..based on what the Camry is worth after 5 years of ownership...who spent more?

For years, the Buick Park Avenue topped the list of lowest total cost of ownership.

turnne
08-15-10, 06:04 PM
For years, the Buick Park Avenue topped the list of lowest total cost of ownership.

send me a link to that information
I scratch my head on that one...as I recall a Park Avenue was like about 40K?
3 years later I think you could buy it for 15K
even with a stellar repair history I am not sure how you could make that loss up

I thought in that 35-40K range it was likely be the Acura TL or the Lexus ES
Especially with the Lexus...which I think is king of resale at that price point

Look at say an an 05 Park avenue with 75K and compare the value to a Lexus ES300 of the same year and mileage..it would surprise me if the Lexus sells for twice the price

I look at my STS...it was a lease return...but even as a retail sale I figure 10-12K off sticker( 67K)...which means my car was 55-57K at real retail pricing
The best resale cars in that segment were 8-10K more than I paid for the STS...while in the case of the Infiniti M for instance..also about 6K less to buy new
So in that case I figure...for a new retail purchase there could be a spread of 13-16K in the new car savings and lost resale difference
Its doubtful that difference could be made up in savings of maintenance and repairs over say 5-7 years


Warren

fps_dean
08-15-10, 06:17 PM
send me a link to that information
I scratch my head on that one...as I recall a Park Avenue was like about 40K?

A 04 Park Ave Ultra with 40k sells for $10k at a local dealer which is typically overpriced (and the sales people have always been rude to me). The car should sell for maybe $9k given you can get a 02 with 60k for about $7 (which lowers the value of the 04 typically). The specific car, although mildly overpriced was sold within a week -- it's still a decent buy because the car is relatively nice and reliable and in great shape. A '04 Lexus ES from the same franchise will sell for around 16k most places, but they'll ask 18k and reject a 16k offer.

40k seems quite a bit high. Around 2000, the price range was maybe 26-32k depending on options or trim, and that maybe went up to maybe 30-36k or something by 2004. Not the cheapest car, but a fully loaded Ultra should cost well below 40k from what I recall unless they jacked it up in 2005 (a year they hardly made any Park Avenues as it was the car's last year). And from my experience with a 2000 Lesabre, I'd totally believe that a Park Ave has the lowest price to own at least after purchase. The only thing that ever went that was the car's fault was the window regulators, but if you are smart enough to buy 3rd party replacements for $50 a pop instead of ACDelco's $200+ price tag for ones that will break again in the near future, that's not too bad at all. I did NOT maintain that car at all, the spark plugs and all the fluids besides oil are all original. I never even washed it (I owned it when I was a poor college student) and now the lack of care is showing up, but I have known only one person with a Toyota with a similar story, and one other that came close. The rest of them have been average at best, and plenty of fail stories, such as sludge problems, major oil leaks, etc on brand new Toyotas too.

My friend's mom had an older Century that she got 250k out of with no major issues and that was a '92, but Buick in the early 90s had Toyota beat according to some sources, and that was Toyota's peak era.

Ironically, I can find Infiniti Ms for about the same price as a STS if I'm willing to travel either to the NYC or Boston area, but the nearest Infiniti dealers are in NYC or Boston and we don't get too many around here and as a result the price tag jumps up a bit. That was a car I would have looked at.

But I totally agree, you can always find a nice, low miles used car and save a shitload, no matter what car it is but some people always have to buy new. If I bought new, I'd be driving a Ford Fusion and the STS, while older is a much, much nicer car. I found a 02 Deville, private sale and very well maintained with only 47k for $6000 which is money better spent to me than buying something new and not nearly as nice.

turnne
08-15-10, 06:42 PM
Hey turnne, you live in Texas. From online listings I've seen, the prices of used cars in Texas seem to be extremely buyer favorable. From what I've seen, Texas seems to be the best state/market to buy a used car -- if I'm missing something, it's definitely one of the best. I've never found a shortage of great buys in auctions from Texas.

I occasionally see super cheap CTS's for sale that look perfectly legitimate selling in the 10-12k range. Of course I live in a very depressed area but occasionally, although very rarely you can find a deal like this. A normal price for a base '05 CTS with 60k is 13-16k where a base STS might be 17-20k, depending who is selling it which IMO means the STS is a better buy. Like I said though you might find something cheaper if you're willing to look hard enough.

Toyota's quality (Lexus included) in more recent years is more buzz than hype, and even with recent issues they aren't terrible if they'd fix them etc. but their quality isn't near what it used to be and I also think the average quality of cars is much better than it was 15-25 years ago as well, maybe excluding Kia/Hyundai which are as bad as ever (believe me, they are). If you look at some older Toyota or Lexus models, they really target the 80+ year old crowd, the crowd Cadillac was targeting a few years back, and they've been doing a good job of marketing and selling to this crowd. I do have to say the resale prices are outrageous though, I would definitely never look at one used for this reason. I see plenty of Lexus cars, regardless of the model from the 90s with 200k or almost for sale around $3000, but keep in mind anything that runs (not well) and will get a sticker will bring in around $2500 and no less than $1800 unless you have connections. But I never do see any for sale above 205k at all.

As far as a set of tires being worth more than the car -- it's worth it if the car is worth it to you. Sometimes not having a car payment, if there's not much else terribly wrong with the car is easily worth four new tires. If it was a late 80s FWD Cadillac (which are some of my least favorite Cadillacs ever), it would be enough to get me to trade it in. If it was a 90s Deville, which while FWD, did have a great soft ride, it would be worth not having a car payment, if you know what I mean.

As for cars still on the road 15+ years later, for 80s models, it definitely has to be Mercedes at least as far as the luxury market. In the 90s, I would go with BMW at least counting cars that are driven more than an occasional trip to the grocery store twice a week.

It definitely would be cheaper to drive a Lexus for 200k, but I'm fairly sure more people keep their older, higher mileage BMWs around longer. I do see plenty of Lexus, Acura, Cadillac and Mercedes models still around. I'd say Audi has to be a clear loser in this area, because the last time I saw one older than '99 was probably at least five years ago.

A german car buyer is not a Lexus buyer A german car buyer spends as much( or more) knowing they are buying a less reliable vehicle than a Lexus
Its more about driving feel and feature set...especially safety features which the germans seems to be on top of anything to do with exterior lighting..airbags, brakes and accident avoidance capability
However as I recall from the last posting I saw the number of luxury cars sold in the US
1. Lexus
2. Mercedes
3. BMW
4. Cadillac
Lexus has come from no where in 20 years and taken the lead and the germans are selling more cars than they ever have also. Cadillac was the only one that does not have higher than their historical volumes

I agree on the resale thing on some of the Lexus Toyota cars...and frankly cars in the near luxury class, such as the IS 350, ES350, and BMW 3 series you might as well buy a new one the resale is so high...which also makes them lease for so cheap because the value at lease return wholesale residuals are so high

By the way I do not live in Texas..I live in Ohio. I am originally from the Dallas-Ft Worth area. A luxury market with dozens of S classes and 7 series seen on a daily basis
That market is much different that Ohio...much more American car mix here and I think the luxury car market is a lot less saturated with dealerships like they are in Dallas

Where are you getting these prices you list for a base 05 STS with 60K for 17-20K?
I bought my fully loaded...every factory option( including white diamond paint) 05 1SG AWD w/HUD and ACC last year from my local Cadillac dealer with 50K on it for $18,750...I paid 28% of the cars $67, 200 sticker that it had in August 2005 when it was originally leased

I would say a base STS with 60K miles is a 13K car

I don't know if Lexus reliability is hype...when I look at reliability statistics after 5 years ...which is a stat that I really concentrate on...they still have gold stars
As for the Hyundai/Kia thing...are you sure about that?
My sister bought a Hyundai Genesis V8 a few months ago..45K sticker..she paid 41K
No issues at all in the 9 months she has owned it...and quite frankly its a heck of a lot more car than a loaner CTS the dealership gave me that had a 45K sticker.....and her voice activation Nav system actually works well. Something I cannot say for STS. In my mind that's a heck of a car for that price..it seems 10-15 too cheap relative to the market.
The fact that Hyunadai didn't have to sell a cheap giveaway lease or discount cars 20% or more( from sticker) just to move them speaks volumes on that Genesis.This would also be related to the fact that if you can find an used 09 its really not that great of a deal over what you could have bought a new one for.
When Hyundai brings out there ultra luxury full size car in the next few months that is 60K...the Equus..it should be interesting. I saw one at at an auto show and again..based on what I saw it looked 10-15K too cheap for the feature set and the finish

I agree with you on the value of the car vs the tires thing...however...I have a group of friends that are all import buyers. All that type of thing does is keep the American sedan low resale stereotype active and keep them ( and many others) from considering one of them. If you are a a new car buyer do you want to think that after you drive the car for 7 years and 100K miles that its worth practically nothing?

I agree with you about the 10 year old plus Benz's on the road..but you have to keep in mind...as slow as they change body styles the cars look relevant longer and even when they do its more like an evolution than a revolution. Its not uncommon for benz to keep the same body style for 7 minimum and the convertibles for a significantly longer time than that
You could look at the 02 STS I traded in and look at the one I have now and be hard pressed to tell they are from the same manufacturer....ditto with the body style that was in the early 90's
In today's world you never know what might happen....in this economy you might have to make changes quickly
Perceived high resale will sell cars


Warren

fps_dean
08-15-10, 08:28 PM
I'm just citing prices I've in in MA, Albany area NY,and CT. And I've been looking a lot lately because the girl needs a car. Occasionally I can find something for 14-16k within 100 miles (and sometimes even lower mileage) but with the very rare exception of a base model or higher miles you can pretty much guarantee accident damage. Edmunds does say $14k for a loaded model with 60k on it for a completely unoptioned base model, but you have to be pretty damn good at negotiating in order to get anything for edmunds pricing in the western half of the state no matter what it is.

And as far as Benz body styles, they've pretty much had three in the past 35 years: 1) boxy, Volvo-240 like, 2) modern Mercedes styles, and 3) the inbetween the modern style and boxy style. But I still see plenty of the early 80s boxy styles.

See, I don't really care about resale, if I buy a car I'm going to get something I like enough to drive it for a long time. And because I believe in buying used, a low resale value gives me a better deal ;)

And what if you're looking at older Lexus's they do and should have solid reliability ratings, I'm saying is Toyota as a brand is not near what they used to be, so earlier in the decade they were still better but now they're living off their reputation. Sort of like Walmart, they used to be cheap, got a reputation for being cheap and then jack up their prices.

And there is a reason the Genesis looks like such a great buy -- it's built with Hyundai quality. If you search a fairly large site such as ebay motors for a Hyundai with over 100k, or even 80k chances are at any given time you won't find any. The Genesis looks like a mad nice car, but I've known people and read up plenty more occurrences where someone had their transmission blow driving their brand new Genesis off the lot. And Hyundai service is terrible. I've known plenty of people to buy Hyundai because the warranty, and plenty more because they needed a cheap car and they can get a Hyundai (same holds true with Kia) that's 3-4 years old with 40k on it for a few thousand dollars, but I have never met anyone who has owned a Hyundai or Kia and had their transmission last a full 30,000 miles. Those who had no warranty had to get new cars, and those who had a warranty got to deal with some of the worst service ever. It took the dealers 2-3 months to replace a transmission and they won't even provide a loaner until after a month. Given one of the former Hyundai owners I know, this was very problematic as she worked pizza delivery. After her fourth transmission failure at 90k, she didn't even bother getting it replaced and bought a $2000 '92 Pontiac that was more reliable than the Hyundai ever was. And that isn't even mentioning all of the blown head gaskets, blown rods and other problems, but a transmission failure is pretty much a guarantee in these cars.

Hell, my best friend bought his father's low mileage Kia when he decided to buy something more appropriately sized to serve as his work van and it was dead by 33k through two transmissions, a blown headgasket, and a blown rod. Even with his stepfather to repair everything, the cost per mile was far higher than a far more expensive car. If he had to pay labor, I'm sure it would have ended up being at least $3/mile to go from a relatively decent 29k to 33k.

Talk to a mechanic and they'll tell you the same thing. My friend used to work for a dealer, and he can tell you horror stores that make my friends's seem like they had good luck.

turnne
08-15-10, 09:39 PM
A 04 Park Ave Ultra with 40k sells for $10k at a local dealer which is typically overpriced (and the sales people have always been rude to me). The car should sell for maybe $9k given you can get a 02 with 60k for about $7 (which lowers the value of the 04 typically). The specific car, although mildly overpriced was sold within a week -- it's still a decent buy because the car is relatively nice and reliable and in great shape. A '04 Lexus ES from the same franchise will sell for around 16k most places, but they'll ask 18k and reject a 16k offer.

40k seems quite a bit high. Around 2000, the price range was maybe 26-32k depending on options or trim, and that maybe went up to maybe 30-36k or something by 2004. Not the cheapest car, but a fully loaded Ultra should cost well below 40k from what I recall unless they jacked it up in 2005 (a year they hardly made any Park Avenues as it was the car's last year). And from my experience with a 2000 Lesabre, I'd totally believe that a Park Ave has the lowest price to own at least after purchase. The only thing that ever went that was the car's fault was the window regulators, but if you are smart enough to buy 3rd party replacements for $50 a pop instead of ACDelco's $200+ price tag for ones that will break again in the near future, that's not too bad at all. I did NOT maintain that car at all, the spark plugs and all the fluids besides oil are all original. I never even washed it (I owned it when I was a poor college student) and now the lack of care is showing up, but I have known only one person with a Toyota with a similar story, and one other that came close. The rest of them have been average at best, and plenty of fail stories, such as sludge problems, major oil leaks, etc on brand new Toyotas too.

My friend's mom had an older Century that she got 250k out of with no major issues and that was a '92, but Buick in the early 90s had Toyota beat according to some sources, and that was Toyota's peak era.

Ironically, I can find Infiniti Ms for about the same price as a STS if I'm willing to travel either to the NYC or Boston area, but the nearest Infiniti dealers are in NYC or Boston and we don't get too many around here and as a result the price tag jumps up a bit. That was a car I would have looked at.

But I totally agree, you can always find a nice, low miles used car and save a shitload, no matter what car it is but some people always have to buy new. If I bought new, I'd be driving a Ford Fusion and the STS, while older is a much, much nicer car. I found a 02 Deville, private sale and very well maintained with only 47k for $6000 which is money better spent to me than buying something new and not nearly as nice.

You prices are unbelievably different than in Ohio or Texas
I agree with you though on the college student car...for example when I was a college student the Nissan that my parents bought me rarely got an oil change and saw quite a bit of college road trip..etc.....I had a myriad of friends with Honda and Toyota's...same deal.....oil "may" have gotten changed..but the cars never broke
Now... my parent's Lincoln was a whole other story...this was the late 80's and my dad took care of that car like it was family member and it treated him like a stepchild with electrical issues...window regulator, windshield wipers that would not shut off,Power antenna's , suspension and transmission issues...all before 40K miles.My oil change one every 12 months( or so?) Nissan was a much better car

I am not sure of the price of a used Park Avenue as I have never looked at one
However you can buy a used 2004 Cadillac SLS or a Loaded Pontiac Bonneville for less than 9K all day long with 40K miles in either Texas or Ohio

Before I traded my 02 STS, last year, I saw an 03...the last of the breed, with 52K with Navi and satellite radio for $10K...sticker would have been about 58K on that car

I guess Park Ave's are more than either of those on the used market?

As for the Infiniti M...again another surprise to me
when I looked at M's with the same equipment level..it was more that 15% difference...and the Infiniti had a less expensive price
If I had found an Infiniti of the same year mileage and equipment as the STS..I would have bought the Infinti
According to the Infinti salesman..BMW was their standard for driving experience that Infiniti had set their sights on. The salesman also told me that the Infiniti was the best driving non-german car I was going to find
He actually might have been accurate on that one IMO
Interesting the Cadillac salesman who sold me the STS asked me what cars I had been test driving...then he apologized in advance because he said the voice activation system was not going to meet my expectations in the STS, after driving the Acura and the Infinti

so you are saying in your market a 2006 AWD Infiniti M fully loaded is bringing the same pricing as an STS?

I am definitely not seeing that in Ohio or Texas....The STS used pricing is actually closer to the Acura RL...which was a car that was even less than the Infiniti brand new
But I agree with you..used cars can be a great value...like I have said earlier I bought my car for 28% of its sticker price when it was 4 years old

Having owned several german cars over the last 20 years and a few American cars over the last 4( with some company cars dating back 7-8 years)..I feel like I can honestly say the german still have the driving experience..IMO ... cost to repair is really about the same for the same system repair...However...with the luxury GM cars..the price on the used car market is unbeatable..and you can burn regular unleaded with a V8..both major pluses to me


Warren

turnne
08-15-10, 10:03 PM
I'm just citing prices I've in in MA, Albany area NY,and CT. And I've been looking a lot lately because the girl needs a car. Occasionally I can find something for 14-16k within 100 miles (and sometimes even lower mileage) but with the very rare exception of a base model or higher miles you can pretty much guarantee accident damage. Edmunds does say $14k for a loaded model with 60k on it for a completely unoptioned base model, but you have to be pretty damn good at negotiating in order to get anything for edmunds pricing in the western half of the state no matter what it is.

And as far as Benz body styles, they've pretty much had three in the past 35 years: 1) boxy, Volvo-240 like, 2) modern Mercedes styles, and 3) the inbetween the modern style and boxy style. But I still see plenty of the early 80s boxy styles.

See, I don't really care about resale, if I buy a car I'm going to get something I like enough to drive it for a long time. And because I believe in buying used, a low resale value gives me a better deal ;)

And what if you're looking at older Lexus's they do and should have solid reliability ratings, I'm saying is Toyota as a brand is not near what they used to be, so earlier in the decade they were still better but now they're living off their reputation. Sort of like Walmart, they used to be cheap, got a reputation for being cheap and then jack up their prices.

And there is a reason the Genesis looks like such a great buy -- it's built with Hyundai quality. If you search a fairly large site such as ebay motors for a Hyundai with over 100k, or even 80k chances are at any given time you won't find any. The Genesis looks like a mad nice car, but I've known people and read up plenty more occurrences where someone had their transmission blow driving their brand new Genesis off the lot. And Hyundai service is terrible. I've known plenty of people to buy Hyundai because the warranty, and plenty more because they needed a cheap car and they can get a Hyundai (same holds true with Kia) that's 3-4 years old with 40k on it for a few thousand dollars, but I have never met anyone who has owned a Hyundai or Kia and had their transmission last a full 30,000 miles. Those who had no warranty had to get new cars, and those who had a warranty got to deal with some of the worst service ever. It took the dealers 2-3 months to replace a transmission and they won't even provide a loaner until after a month. Given one of the former Hyundai owners I know, this was very problematic as she worked pizza delivery. After her fourth transmission failure at 90k, she didn't even bother getting it replaced and bought a $2000 '92 Pontiac that was more reliable than the Hyundai ever was. And that isn't even mentioning all of the blown head gaskets, blown rods and other problems, but a transmission failure is pretty much a guarantee in these cars.

Hell, my best friend bought his father's low mileage Kia when he decided to buy something more appropriately sized to serve as his work van and it was dead by 33k through two transmissions, a blown headgasket, and a blown rod. Even with his stepfather to repair everything, the cost per mile was far higher than a far more expensive car. If he had to pay labor, I'm sure it would have ended up being at least $3/mile to go from a relatively decent 29k to 33k.

Talk to a mechanic and they'll tell you the same thing. My friend used to work for a dealer, and he can tell you horror stores that make my friends's seem like they had good luck.

Well thats great for you that you don't care about resale. I tend to be bottom line oriented and look at lost resale as a cost
With these GM's I have bought in the past 4 years I have been the recipient of GM's low resale..and thats a good thing
However at the end of the day its hard for me to pour much money in car thats worth nearly nothing...I cite my tire statement from a few posts back
If I was just to keep it going for the sake of transportation..I would buy something like a Honda Accord. A car like that makes whole lot more sense if you are just going to drive it till whenever. For a person in that scenario it seems to me that controlling costs would be priority 1
The Cadillac has way too much going on that doesn't make sense to repair...or stated another way... that no one fixes after the car is worth less than 5K
Have you looked around and seen the many warning lights on say 10 year old plus devilles that say "check ride control" lit up on the dash?
Meaning they likely need a new set of ISS shocks...a 3-4K repair...or I think there are non-factory retrofits that by pass the traction and stability control
I have seen several of that vintage that had HG issues also...a 6K( or more) repair that often sends them to the junkyard after the owner calls it quits
But I have seen some have them fixed at my local dealership and pay for a repair that is worth more than the car is after its fixed
That would be a hard idea for me to embrace
You mentioned talking to a mechanic...I told a couple of local independent shops that I had used for brakes etc in the past and they both told me to RUN not walk from a used Northstar engined car..they said buy something with the 3.8 if you are buying GM
They both cited HG issues. Well..thank goodness I think GM cured the HG problems after 00...so my guys were taking 90's cars

As for the Genesis...time will tell..its only been on the market one year and all I have read has been positive. This with the fact that they have not had to heavilly discount them or sell a cheap lease to move cars is a good thing. I rode in my sister's last weekend. I think I am fairly picky when it comes to interior quality..finish...option functionality. That car to me..looks to be a winner. However in 4 years if its worth 7K then I will stand corrected..based on what the Azera's etc are doing now for the last few years that seems that will likely not be the case
I have no idea about Hyunadai customer service...but I know that can vary greatly by dealer. In my mind Park Place Mercedes Benz in Dallas Texas is the best dealer I have ever seen..of any brand I have ever driven. When I moved to Columbus Ohio, Crown Mercedes Benz did not have near the service level of Park Place in Dallas. Germain Cadillac here in town is the only Cadillac dealer I have much experience with. I would rate them as good for the most part...but again nothing like the Mercedes dealer I used in Dallas


Warren

EChas3
08-15-10, 10:29 PM
That was the early '90's. The point is that cheap cars often have unexpected operating costs.

turnne
08-16-10, 07:28 AM
That was the early '90's. The point is that cheap cars often have unexpected operating costs.

Agreed and customer perception of that can have a lot to do with resale.
I mean cheap used cars relative to their new sticker pricing....just to make sure I understood your statement



Warren

fps_dean
08-16-10, 01:26 PM
As for the Genesis...time will tell..its only been on the market one year and all I have read has been positive. This with the fact that they have not had to heavilly discount them or sell a cheap lease to move cars is a good thing. I rode in my sister's last weekend. I think I am fairly picky when it comes to interior quality..finish...option functionality. That car to me..looks to be a winner. However in 4 years if its worth 7K then I will stand corrected..based on what the Azera's etc are doing now for the last few years that seems that will likely not be the case
I have no idea about Hyunadai customer service...but I know that can vary greatly by dealer. In my mind Park Place Mercedes Benz in Dallas Texas is the best dealer I have ever seen..of any brand I have ever driven. When I moved to Columbus Ohio, Crown Mercedes Benz did not have near the service level of Park Place in Dallas. Germain Cadillac here in town is the only Cadillac dealer I have much experience with. I would rate them as good for the most part...but again nothing like the Mercedes dealer I used in Dallas


Warren

The Genesis is really competing with a class above itself (well I guess the CTS is to some extent too), it is an incredibly nice car for its price range, if it wasn't a Hyundai... I'm expecting the cars to sell for maybe 6-10k after 4-5 years, which is about relatively correct for Hyundai, but it's really hard to tell with these cars. They definitely should have marketed the car under its own brand name however.

And yeah Cadillac dealer experiences usually aren't on the same level as a Mercedes/BMW dealer, but we used to have a fairly small, Cadillac-only dealer that since closed that was exceptionally good, but they were too small volume for GM's liking even though they were making money overall and lost their license, which is really shameful. It was quite common for people to drive past their two closest dealers to go service there, which speaks volumes especially when their local dealers are considered to be pretty good.

turnne
08-16-10, 03:16 PM
The Genesis is really competing with a class above itself (well I guess the CTS is to some extent too), it is an incredibly nice car for its price range, if it wasn't a Hyundai... I'm expecting the cars to sell for maybe 6-10k after 4-5 years, which is about relatively correct for Hyundai, but it's really hard to tell with these cars. They definitely should have marketed the car under its own brand name however.

And yeah Cadillac dealer experiences usually aren't on the same level as a Mercedes/BMW dealer, but we used to have a fairly small, Cadillac-only dealer that since closed that was exceptionally good, but they were too small volume for GM's liking even though they were making money overall and lost their license, which is really shameful. It was quite common for people to drive past their two closest dealers to go service there, which speaks volumes especially when their local dealers are considered to be pretty good.

Agreed
I drove a Genesis V8 back to back with a Cadillac CTS....the cars were within $100 of each other..sticker wise
Although I have reason to believe the Cadillac actually sells for less money due to a larger discount from sticker...if anyone can confirm?
The Hyundai V8 loaded is 45K..it sells for 4-5K off sticker

Any way gut reaction was that the Hyundai was 10K too cheap and the Cadillac CTS was 10K too expensive. The Cadillac, to me, was way too close to an Acura TL in finish and features( on that particular CTS). The Acura TL can be had for $36K
...gut reaction was that the Hyundai was 10K to cheap of the Cadillac was 10K too expensive

FPs_Dean
I think your math has some flaws when you say the Genesis will be 6-10K in 4 to 5 years
a few reasons I think so
1.They are not discounting heavily from sticker
2.They didn't subsidize a cheap lease that will create a flood of lease returns in 3 years
3. The used 09's have I have seen have been priced in the low to mid 30's( for a V8)
4. A 4 year old Hyundai Azera is worth more than the 6-10K ..and that is a significantly less expensive car to buy new...like 10K less

Marketing the Genesis under its own brand would have likely added a few grand to the sticker and probably violated one the "sensible" luxury advertisements they use for marketing the car

Resale most always seems to make sense
if 1 and 2 , above, are the case..its almost always a killer in resale....and if there is some fleet duty/rental car sales of any magnitude...such as the DTS...thats another coffin nail

I am waiting for the new full size car/ultra luxury entry they have coming out that is 65K..sometime in 2011
Thats a tough market segment.....probably held for the most part in the US by the germans


Warren

fps_dean
08-16-10, 06:32 PM
^ I'm just going from Hyundai resale value. 4-5 years later, most people have to pay to get rid of them. If they aren't already in a junkyard, they'll sell in the $2000-3000 range.

Hell, my girlfriend's neighbor used to have a 6 year old Hyundai something or other with no miles on it, looked like a new car and she only paid about $800 at a dealer who sold it as is to her for what they paid for it. Someone plowed into it a week later, and after getting it fixed up slightly it eventually died and she got a $800 Camry with mad high miles that lasted her a hell of a lot longer.

I really don't see the TL as half the car as the CTS either. The RL's more in line with the CTS imo. I don't really see the appeal in the current Acura sedans -- the Accord probably has the nicest interior of a car under $30k, but Acura really doesn't offer much that the Accord doesn't.

Midnight
08-16-10, 07:19 PM
> If they aren't already in a junkyard, they'll sell in the $2000-3000 range.

I respectfully disagree with your basic assessment that Hyundais are that bad. Any quick look at any auto site will show them selling for respectable numbers for their initial cost. At least compared to the 0-3k range you've given them. I had a good experience with my Hyundai. Not that that matters, or your girlfriend's neighbor's matters. Everyone makes a car that lasts forever, or one that dies when driven out of the lot brand new... it's the average that counts. And they're simply not bad.

I think we owe it to ourselves to be accurate because the domestic automakers get a lot of flack for putting out junk in the 70's and 80's that they don't deserve now. And it just allows certain other automakers to coast on their reputation. I hate that.

fps_dean
08-16-10, 11:35 PM
^^ That's all I'd expect to pay for one. I've been looking through cheaper cars because the girl needs a new car soon and I have no trouble finding relatively new (for the price range) Hyundais. I'd certainly never consider one, I can't even begin to count the fail stories but I've only known one person to drive one over 60k and that was because it was warrantied -- everyone else I know had enough long before then, despite having a warranty.

I just searched ebay motors again for higher mileage Hyundais and they actually have almost a page of cars over 100k (one with 183k, possibly a Hyundai record?), but it took me days to find one with 100k on it too the first time I looked.

Generally I think you can buy about whatever you want these days and get a solid 160k out of it if you really want, with Hyundai and Kia being the exception. For the first time since I've been alive, my father has 110k+ on a Chrysler with minimal problems and there's nothing wrong with the car still, as far as I am aware of (which is much better than any ofthe older Chrysler-made cars he's owned in the past),

fps_dean
08-16-10, 11:43 PM
They both cited HG issues. Well..thank goodness I think GM cured the HG problems after 00...so my guys were taking 90's cars

I should point out that while '97-'99 was the worst, the HG complaints died way down after 2002 model years but I read that they didn't completely fix it until cars for the 2005 model year or newer. It would suck to have a HG die on you, but on the flipside if it's just a HG then it should not cost maybe a little over $2k, not $6k (which is bad enough).

I've known plenty of people who have owned '97-'99 model Cadillacs and never had a problem, but I've seen plenty of them for sale "as is" with a blown headgasket", or just repaired from a blown head gasket. All the people who have had good luck bought them new, and flush their coolant every 2-3 years regularly which I'm fairly sure has something to do with why they've had such good luck, but I'd be scared of buying one used if you know what I mean.

What's even worse though, my friend had a '94 Cavalier. Got it with 50k and it ate two headgaskets over the next couple of years. Years later, I found the engine on the top 10 worst ever list and sent it to him -- it wasn't just him.

sburgin
08-17-10, 12:33 AM
I happened across this thread, and found it ironic, as for the last few weeks have seriously been considering dumping my 05 STS for a Genesis 4.6 or 3.8.

While I was initially suspicious of Hyundai, my wife's purchase two years ago of an 08 Santa Fe has convinced me that Hyundai is making some good cars right now. While I've dumped (no kidding) - close to about 2K into my STS (wife calls it the money pit - thank god for the extended warranty), her car has been flawless despite a number of trips from Indy down to Florida.

The Genesis is the real deal. It's a great car. I love my STS, but I don't have money to burn - and that's what the STS wants unfortunately for me.



> If they aren't already in a junkyard, they'll sell in the $2000-3000 range.

I respectfully disagree with your basic assessment that Hyundais are that bad. Any quick look at any auto site will show them selling for respectable numbers for their initial cost. At least compared to the 0-3k range you've given them. I had a good experience with my Hyundai. Not that that matters, or your girlfriend's neighbor's matters. Everyone makes a car that lasts forever, or one that dies when driven out of the lot brand new... it's the average that counts. And they're simply not bad.

I think we owe it to ourselves to be accurate because the domestic automakers get a lot of flack for putting out junk in the 70's and 80's that they don't deserve now. And it just allows certain other automakers to coast on their reputation. I hate that.

sapien
08-17-10, 01:28 AM
I spent some time washing my STS yesterday and damn, it's a beautiful ride... but I may have something else in mind that's not a Caddy...
Not in a hurry to change, so we'll see; I could just as easily keep it for another year and see what's up for 2011. but if anyone's in the market (NoVA/DC area) for a good deal on a LOW mileage and trouble-free V8 STS, hit me up

turnne
08-17-10, 09:08 AM
^ I'm just going from Hyundai resale value. 4-5 years later, most people have to pay to get rid of them. If they aren't already in a junkyard, they'll sell in the $2000-3000 range.

Hell, my girlfriend's neighbor used to have a 6 year old Hyundai something or other with no miles on it, looked like a new car and she only paid about $800 at a dealer who sold it as is to her for what they paid for it. Someone plowed into it a week later, and after getting it fixed up slightly it eventually died and she got a $800 Camry with mad high miles that lasted her a hell of a lot longer.

I really don't see the TL as half the car as the CTS either. The RL's more in line with the CTS imo. I don't really see the appeal in the current Acura sedans -- the Accord probably has the nicest interior of a car under $30k, but Acura really doesn't offer much that the Accord doesn't.

Where do you see a Hyundai Azera that is 4-5 years old that is selling for 4-5K....I am not talking about a base car that was only 12K new
When you say people are paying to get rid of them..I assume you mean because the resale is falling so fast they tend to be upside down in the loan?

Well....like I mentioned before I bought my 4 year old STS for 28% of its sticker($67,200 sticker..purchased for $18,750 with 50K miles)...it was a lease car...but you can imagine what a retail buyer would have lost if they kept the car for 4 years and traded it in...the car had to have lost 25K in value its first two years on the road

What would you say my STS lost, in value, in the first two years on the road?

You need to drive the Acura RL and drive the Cadillac CTS and then compare the features
The RL is in completely another ballpark than the CTS....in just finish and interior quality of materials the CTS is more in line with the Acura TL
The Acura TL has some standard features such as Xenon lights that are options on the CTS. The Accord is not available with Xenon at all as well as some accident avoidance features that are available on the TL


Warren

turnne
08-17-10, 09:15 AM
I should point out that while '97-'99 was the worst, the HG complaints died way down after 2002 model years but I read that they didn't completely fix it until cars for the 2005 model year or newer. It would suck to have a HG die on you, but on the flipside if it's just a HG then it should not cost maybe a little over $2k, not $6k (which is bad enough).

I've known plenty of people who have owned '97-'99 model Cadillacs and never had a problem, but I've seen plenty of them for sale "as is" with a blown headgasket", or just repaired from a blown head gasket. All the people who have had good luck bought them new, and flush their coolant every 2-3 years regularly which I'm fairly sure has something to do with why they've had such good luck, but I'd be scared of buying one used if you know what I mean.

What's even worse though, my friend had a '94 Cavalier. Got it with 50k and it ate two headgaskets over the next couple of years. Years later, I found the engine on the top 10 worst ever list and sent it to him -- it wasn't just him.

Thats the lowest cost I have even seen for that repair...and as I pointed out earlier two independent shops I know say they have done plenty of them on 90's vintage cars. Both shops told me to run from a used Northstar and as I stated before, buy a 3.8 engined car if I was going to buy a used GM. My Cadillac dealer...Germain Cadillac...will not even do they them. They will replace the engine only and I have seen them dropping a longblock in a 98 Deville recently.
So you can imagine there is a lot of junkyard inventory from this type of situation
Putting that type of money in car thats worth maybe $2000-2500...really..whats a 99 Deville worth with 100K
This was one of the major reasons I got rid of my 02 STS....it was car that was worth about $3500-4000...I was getting really nervous about suspension issues that would cost as much as the car was worth to repair
No thanks....paying that much for any repair would be a drag..but to me...adding insult to injury would be investing that in a car that was only worth that amount

Before I bought the 02 STS I called the selling dealer who had serviced the car for most of its life...his words to me were that that vintage STS was an inconsistent car. They had loyal customers who bought and had their cars serviced at the dealer religiously.....some had cars that never broke...but then they also had a significant number that had all types of issues.
He told me they had HG repairs as well that extremely expensive ISS shock replacement under the factory warranty many times. One thing I never understood about those shocks...when the electrical part goes south you have to replace the whole thing. Why didn't GM make the shock separate from the electrical part of the suspension...in later years this seems to be another sore spot for people that don't have this issues fixed because of the cost and the "check ride control" light remains on

Warren

KRSTS
08-17-10, 11:21 AM
Hows this for holding value in resale http://cars.fopads.com/view/2007-Cadillac-Sts-Base-poztaxzafzmsaomsdxf

fps_dean
08-17-10, 02:16 PM
Where do you see a Hyundai Azera that is 4-5 years old that is selling for 4-5K....I am not talking about a base car that was only 12K new
When you say people are paying to get rid of them..I assume you mean because the resale is falling so fast they tend to be upside down in the loan?

I've never actually seen an Azera in person, or listed for sale. From a quick search, their resale is definitely better than other models -- take a Sonata, which is worth 15-30% (depending on trim) of its retail price after only a few years.

But when I say people are paying to get rid of them, pretty much that they have money left on the loan but because the cars often don't run at all, or having something noticeably wrong with it and end up taking an extremely small amount in a trade just to get into something else.

fps_dean
08-17-10, 02:39 PM
Hows this for holding value in resale http://cars.fopads.com/view/2007-Cadillac-Sts-Base-poztaxzafzmsaomsdxf

LOL! What currency is that in? I'll buy it if it's rubles...

EChas3
08-17-10, 11:39 PM
My Hyundai opinion is based entirely anecdotal evidence. I have several friends that have had good experiences. They seem to provide a good value.

On the other hand, I doubt you'll see me trade my STS for one.

turnne
08-18-10, 06:56 PM
Hows this for holding value in resale http://cars.fopads.com/view/2007-Cadillac-Sts-Base-poztaxzafzmsaomsdxf


That real funny....what do they say about a sucker born every minute....

Seriously though I know someone who bought a 2007 for under $30K several months ago with 30K miles

turnne
08-18-10, 07:11 PM
I've never actually seen an Azera in person, or listed for sale. From a quick search, their resale is definitely better than other models -- take a Sonata, which is worth 15-30% (depending on trim) of its retail price after only a few years.

But when I say people are paying to get rid of them, pretty much that they have money left on the loan but because the cars often don't run at all, or having something noticeably wrong with it and end up taking an extremely small amount in a trade just to get into something else.

I am not seeing that 15-30% on Sonata's either.on say a 4 year old car...they are not as high of resale as Camry's or Accords...but much better than Chevy Malibu's
Also remember I bought my 4 year old STS with 50K for 28% of sticker

as for paying to get rid of them..if you can try to get close to a deal at your dealer where someone is trading in a car that they bought there 4 years before
I saw a deal a few months ago where a lady was trading in her Cadillac XLR...can you say "bath"
Care to talk about paying someone to take it off your hands..lol

According to the conversation I was eaves dropping on she bought the car new at that dealership
wow....the numbers in the high 20's I was overhearing were scary





Warren

turnne
08-18-10, 07:20 PM
My Hyundai opinion is based entirely anecdotal evidence. I have several friends that have had good experiences. They seem to provide a good value.

On the other hand, I doubt you'll see me trade my STS for one.


Thats a somewhat ironic play on words....evidence would imply research and facts and anecdotal would imply something from the hip that had little or nothing to do with facts...
Buy anyway...
Based on the resale numbers that the V8 Genesis is generating currently..and taking into account what I have seen some pay recently, in this forum, for some used 09 STS... compile this with their resale history from the last 4 years and that Genesis V8 will be a more expensive used car that the STS V8 on the used car market
I am excluding the total cost to own with the new car price of the STS in there...clearly that would make it a lot more expensive that the Genesis as you could not make up the lost resale from new
But as a used car...it would seem that you choose the cheaper option which is not a bad thing


Warren

turnne
08-18-10, 07:32 PM
I happened across this thread, and found it ironic, as for the last few weeks have seriously been considering dumping my 05 STS for a Genesis 4.6 or 3.8.

While I was initially suspicious of Hyundai, my wife's purchase two years ago of an 08 Santa Fe has convinced me that Hyundai is making some good cars right now. While I've dumped (no kidding) - close to about 2K into my STS (wife calls it the money pit - thank god for the extended warranty), her car has been flawless despite a number of trips from Indy down to Florida.

The Genesis is the real deal. It's a great car. I love my STS, but I don't have money to burn - and that's what the STS wants unfortunately for me.

I drove a V8 model several months ago..and like I have mentioned before it seemed at least 10K too inexpensive...at 45K. My sister bought one 8 months ago for 41K and loves it
I drove a CTS right after driving the Genesis, with the same sticker pricing and that confirmed my opinion about the Genesis feeling 10K too cheap

Now..it has some bootlegged Lexus styling and its probably closer to a Lexus in feel than anything else. Hyunadai has put some good product out recently..and their price points are timely for an economy that is looking at squeezing every thing out of every penny. The car is game changer for them...rave reviews across the map
When they bring out the Equus next and basically offer what is an Lexus LS460 at 20K less, it should be interesting

Do you recall 20 years ago when Lexus introduced the LS400.....it was the same price as the Cadillac STS
I remember thinking the same thing then...this car for the price of a Cadillac?
Looking at now..especially with all those 90's vintage LS riding around with crazy high mileage and still worth a few $$$...who would have bought the Cadillac,new, over the Lexus?
Again...from the Toyota brand known for bread /butter and economy cars and had never built V8's before...


Warren

EChas3
08-19-10, 09:54 PM
Ouch. My wife's 2007 was that in early 2008 with 10,000 miles.

EChas3
08-19-10, 10:05 PM
Thats a somewhat ironic play on words....evidence would imply research and facts and anecdotal would imply something from the hip that had little or nothing to do with facts...
Buy anyway...
Based on the resale numbers that the V8 Genesis is generating currently..and taking into account what I have seen some pay recently, in this forum, for some used 09 STS... compile this with their resale history from the last 4 years and that Genesis V8 will be a more expensive used car that the STS V8 on the used car market
I am excluding the total cost to own with the new car price of the STS in there...clearly that would make it a lot more expensive that the Genesis as you could not make up the lost resale from new
But as a used car...it would seem that you choose the cheaper option which is not a bad thing


Warren

Anecdotal evidence is a common term to most; much like 'the word on the street'. I doubt there's confusion about my statement. Word of mouth is the best advertising. The people I know with Hyundai's have no complaints.

But I'm happy in mt STS and not researching values of cars when I don't plan to trade any time soon.

turnne
08-20-10, 10:07 AM
Ouch. My wife's 2007 was that in early 2008 with 10,000 miles.

was what...30% of its original retail value?


Warren

turnne
08-20-10, 10:24 AM
Anecdotal evidence is a common term to most; much like 'the word on the street'. I doubt there's confusion about my statement. Word of mouth is the best advertising. The people I know with Hyundai's have no complaints.

But I'm happy in mt STS and not researching values of cars when I don't plan to trade any time soon.



No..I have never heard the term..in fact based on what you describe..I would call that actual factual case history.There is nothing anecdotal about that.
I have heard "word on the street"...which implies both rumor and hearsay in the mix
I completely understand your not researching your car's value.
I typically know the value of all of my major purchases/assets...house, car, 401K, and other miscellaneous investments
There has really never been a surprise for me, in the last 20 years, when I go to the car dealer to purchase
When I bought this last car..again at 28% of is sticker...I walked in the dealership...told him what I was willing to pay..told him what I was willing to take for trade
He went into so speech about the Cadillac name...the fact that this was such a rare car since it had every factory option along with its $67,200 sticker which he pulled out..the free car washes and service loaners..yada..yada..yada
I mentioned the fact that this 05 would be worth the same as the 02 I was trading in 3 years and that sticker price was worthless to me..I was only concerned about market value
I then went into a speech and asked him if he cared that my 02 had a sticker of $55,800 but that the offer was $3500.00..?...lol
Needless to say he didn't want to play the numbers game with me
I ended up paying $250 more than my original offer..I was feeling generous that day..lol..but he did throw in an extra key and a few other things that frankly probably cost the dealership nothing, but they would have not been free to me
As I mentioned before..in this thread...because I know the resale of these cars is so low I keep an eye on where the current value to cost to repair ratio is
So frankly..I am probably keeping a closer eye on this car..as I did with the Aurora and other STS) for that reason


Warren

Midnight
08-20-10, 10:52 AM
Anecdotal (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal): "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"..

You'll always see horror stories about the best made cars, and success stories with the worst made piece of junk. But a couple data points doesn't really let anyone draw any conclusions, at least not trustworthy ones. And actually it's even worse, because people tend to talk about extreme cases rather than the average, boring cases, and those extreme cases... well I bet a lot of them have another side that you don't hear about. Like, "My neighbors car died after 50k miles, those things must be junk". But I didn't mention the part where he abused it.... Or the other side, some guy gets 250k miles from a car, but you don't hear about an engine swap or extensive transmission work he had done, when most other people would have cut their losses.

Word on the street, to me is maybe more of an average, and would maybe be based more on common problems that happen rather than an extreme case. I guess the biggest difference here is sample size.

turnne
08-20-10, 10:34 PM
Anecdotal (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal): "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"..

You'll always see horror stories about the best made cars, and success stories with the worst made piece of junk. But a couple data points doesn't really let anyone draw any conclusions, at least not trustworthy ones. And actually it's even worse, because people tend to talk about extreme cases rather than the average, boring cases, and those extreme cases... well I bet a lot of them have another side that you don't hear about. Like, "My neighbors car died after 50k miles, those things must be junk". But I didn't mention the part where he abused it.... Or the other side, some guy gets 250k miles from a car, but you don't hear about an engine swap or extensive transmission work he had done, when most other people would have cut their losses.

Word on the street, to me is maybe more of an average, and would maybe be based more on common problems that happen rather than an extreme case. I guess the biggest difference here is sample size.

keywords:
casual observations , indications

Neither of which can be calculated and documented as fact
I am not sure about you
BUT..if there is a make that I have owned for a few years..or had a personal friend/relative that has owned the make for many years..or have a trusted mechanic that I have known for many years that repairs cars each day that can offer some evaluation of the vast array of cars they repair
...those are my sources
In regard to my mechanic..I factor in the amount of cars sold..ie...there are a lot more Camry's and Accords sold in the market than Aurora's or STS's...so if he doesn't say anything bad about the cars that are the best sellers in the market and have been for a decade..then there is something to be said for that

People will tend to take the time to speak about what they have had bad experiences whether it be online or otherwise.
Whether someone decides to "cut their losses" likely depends on the cost to repair vs the cost of the asset
And trust me I have seen some people pay some large Benz repairs...like 4K...but if the car is still worth 15K..?
Thats a different situation if the car is only worth 5K
For instance , in my personal cae, I had no intention of repairing that Mag ride suspension in my old 02 STS that would have been a $3500 repair on what would be a $4000...fixed

Warren