: Adding insult to injury: Motor Trend picks M3 & RS5 over V Coupe



irablumberg
08-01-10, 12:53 AM
I'm sure this was mentioned in the other thread, I thought I'd mention it for those not keeping up with that thread. I don't see the article on line yet, but just got the hard copy in the mail.

Main knock on the V is the crappy auto trans. V out accelerates and brakes the others. But, came in last on skid pad. V is also criticized for being too heavy.

I don't understand why the mags used an auto instead of the manual. This is a sport coupe after all. It's not unreasonable to assume sport coupe drivers might enjoy rowing for themselves.

Ira

ericpd
08-01-10, 03:30 AM
Well yeah it's too heavy,.... it's a car in a totally different class. I guess in everyone's haste, the mags couldn't wait for the AST-V (or is it gonna be the ATS-V,... not sure) before compare 3's, C's and R5's with something out of Caddy's stable. And while I'm guessin', I guess they were similarly afraid to compare the heavier, more appropriate german coupes. I'm also disappointed they brought a knife to a gun fight. I guess they were 'trying' to keep things even since the Audi and the M had automated boxes. But just like some in here, the mags don't seem to understand that a manual is a manual and an automatic is an automatic. The V auto is a mix-match,... even though it changes gears by itself like the Audi and the M. Duh! So I'm left assuming that comparing evenly matched cars has lost it's popularity. Still,... like you I believe that if the had been a manual, it would have done better. I'm certain it would have bested the Audi after reading what they thought of it. If the only significant thing they can find wrong with it is the transmission option,... I'd call that a win. Even in our community, the only thing the auto is good for are 1/4 mile rips (the auto can't be beat on the strip) and driving while drinking coffee and eating a bagel in the morning while driving to work. Oh wait a minute,... I forgot,... the wife!

dons
08-01-10, 08:18 AM
A disgusting analysis. I did not buy my V with the idea I would be saving gas. (I drove my V to Austin, Texas recently & got 19 MPG driving 75 on a 400 mile round trip), and the other pointless "deducts" on the scoring system, were comfort, rear seat confort, engine NVW (what is that?), transmission etc. The V is the real winner, with good pricing, the quickest, the best looking and a bullet proof engine set up that can't be matched. I have an automatic, and love it. What about future repair cost and maintenance? There was no mention of service cost? I would not want to pay for servicing the other two vehicles.

lawnstripes
08-01-10, 09:35 AM
only thing i did like better from the pics from the audi and bmw were the front seats. i do not know how comfortable the seats on those vechiles are but the recaros "really" arent the most comfortable out there. they hold you in well but comfort is lacking IMHO.

the other funny thing is the V got knocked on a quiet exhaust and supercharger (lol) for $1,000 put a new exhaust on and an intake and the V sounds AWESOME............ and still $7,000 cheaper then the M3

i really want to see the m5/6 vs V coupe vs mb comparioson.

SleepTight
08-01-10, 11:34 AM
This review was already discussed at length in the other thread about the Car & Driver Comparison. Yes, the V Coupe is heavier and larger than both cars and probably competes in a different class (M6 anyone?), but at the end of the day, the focus on the V Coupe's interior quality and achingly slow automatic transmission are valid points of criticism that are echoed on these forums all the time. So, again, GM bring on the dual clutch manual/automatic.

aj660
08-01-10, 12:41 PM
A disgusting analysis. I did not buy my V with the idea I would be saving gas. (I drove my V to Austin, Texas recently & got 19 MPG driving 75 on a 400 mile round trip), and the other pointless "deducts" on the scoring system, were comfort, rear seat confort, engine NVW (what is that?), transmission etc. The V is the real winner, with good pricing, the quickest, the best looking and a bullet proof engine set up that can't be matched. I have an automatic, and love it. What about future repair cost and maintenance? There was no mention of service cost? I would not want to pay for servicing the other two vehicles.

I think this was specific to the Coupe and not the sedan. I read all the articles and comparisons and I agree that they should have made it smaller/lighter (maybe more like that Cadilac concept car) but I think the interior is nicer than both the M3 and the Rs5. If the V-Coupe was 300-400 pounds lighter with 305s in the rear, then the car would be in Z06 territory.

I ordered the coupe and I'm looking looking forward to getting my car in the next month or so. However, I ordered manual and I'm happy I did. Since I can't make the car lighter, I'll just change the pulleys, go with AR headers, a tune, D3 springs to lower the car, and 305.30.19s (don't want 20s). This should certainly make a nice difference...

V&Vette
08-01-10, 01:48 PM
Even in our community, the only thing the auto is good for are 1/4 mile rips (the auto can't be beat on the strip) and driving while drinking coffee and eating a bagel in the morning while driving to work. Oh wait a minute,... I forgot,... the wife!

They were comparing an auto against an auto. The auto has been proven over and over again to be quicker than the manual in the V. They stated that the transmissions in the other two cars were better. Not a big deal. Also your last comment there was ignorant and made absolutely no sense. In your opinion the auto is only good for those things. Thankfully not everything thinks that way.

V&Vette
08-01-10, 01:49 PM
What about future repair cost and maintenance? There was no mention of service cost? I would not want to pay for servicing the other two vehicles.

FYI, The BMW comes with free full maintenance.

V&Vette
08-01-10, 01:51 PM
only thing i did like better from the pics from the audi and bmw were the front seats. i do not know how comfortable the seats on those vechiles are but the recaros "really" arent the most comfortable out there. they hold you in well but comfort is lacking IMHO.

the other funny thing is the V got knocked on a quiet exhaust and supercharger (lol) for $1,000 put a new exhaust on and an intake and the V sounds AWESOME............ and still $7,000 cheaper then the M3

i really want to see the m5/6 vs V coupe vs mb comparioson.

The M3 is priced the same as the V. Both are 70k in the real world with options. Almost identical, check out both sites. Also the M5 vs V comparison was done about 6 months ago in M & T. The V took 1st! Good read, check out the link I posted in the other discussion (M3 vs RS5 vs V).

V&Vette
08-01-10, 01:52 PM
only thing i did like better from the pics from the audi and bmw were the front seats. i do not know how comfortable the seats on those vechiles are but the recaros "really" arent the most comfortable out there. they hold you in well but comfort is lacking IMHO.

the other funny thing is the V got knocked on a quiet exhaust and supercharger (lol) for $1,000 put a new exhaust on and an intake and the V sounds AWESOME............ and still $7,000 cheaper then the M3

i really want to see the m5/6 vs V coupe vs mb comparioson.

The M3 is priced the same as the V. Both are 70k in the real world with options. Almost identical, check out both sites. Also the M5 vs V comparison was done about 6 months ago in M & T. The V took 1st! Good read, check out the link I posted in the other discussion (M3 vs RS5 vs V).

ericpd
08-01-10, 02:51 PM
They were comparing an auto against an auto. The auto has been proven over and over again to be quicker than the manual in the V. They stated that the transmissions in the other two cars were better. Not a big deal. Also your last comment there was ignorant and made absolutely no sense. In your opinion the auto is only good for those things. Thankfully not everything thinks that way.

Whoa, whoa, whoa,.... in no way was my comment meant to offend anyone, the least of which our auto owning members. My apologies if I did. My last comment was just restating something we here in our community have been agreeing on for some time. That is,... the auto is quicker than the manual especially in a straight line, but the manual connects you more with both the road, and more importantly, with the car. We've ended that debate long ago consuming many threads in here. We've also commented many times about the convenience of the auto over the manual, especially as a daily driver and in a family environment where the wife might a co-driver. Granted, the wife comment was meant to be light-hearted, but nonetheless, the comment have been made and most can relate to it. The last problem on earth our cars have to deal with or explain away is speed and quickness,... no matter what transmission is comes to the party with. It was the other stuff we find ourselves explaining away,... other stuff like the dated automatic transmission GM gives us as an alternative to the Manual Box. Ironically, our Tremac Manual gets better scores than the 6 speed manual boxes fitted to the BMW.

But here's where you're wrong,... the Caddy was the ONLY automatic in the comparo. The BMW and the Audi were equipped with manual boxes,... automated manuals to be precise. You have to come to grips with the fact that there's a different between an automatic transmission and a manual transmission that changes gears by itself,... or if you like, automatically in some automated fashion. Most of us think that this difference played a major role in the outcome of both the MT and C&D articles,... at least I'm convinced it did. But please don't mis-understand my probable poor choice of words,... the auto V ain't no slouch. The record around 'The Ring' was set with an auto V,... I'm not lost to that and I doubt any of the rest of us are. But for this comparison, the mags dug deep to point out all of the CTS-V Coupe's shortcomings,... and at the top of this list was the automatic transmission. You have to admit, when compared to BMW's and Audi's automated manual boxes, an old school hydraulic planetary slush-box ain't gonna get it. And I don't think that that's a dig at GM's Hydramatic specifically,... most old school slush-box prolly would have gotten the same treatment at this time. Save maybe MB's 7 speed automatic. Most agree it's one of the best on the planet.

My only point was to suggest that instead of attempting to match the level of human interaction needed to change the gears, a more leveled playing field would have been achieved by attempting to match the type of gears being changed.

Again,... my apologies if I came off wrong and offended anyone!

BeagleBrains
08-01-10, 03:15 PM
The car magazines generally pick which vehicles to "compare" that any car enthusiast sees as transparent bias from the start. Writers are enamored with "import" cars, reporting a predetermined agenda that comes to the conclusion based on their original intent. This is why I always decline to participate in "surveys" professionally developed by a person having a psychology degree with emphasis in survey development (manipulation!).
'Our Survey on XXXSUBJECTXX proved that 84.2% of those participating (manipulated) agree with our (unavoidable) conclusion.'
HOWEVER, I will continue to subscribe, as there is information to gleen from their data by ignoring the scoring points designed to support their conclusions. :lies:

aj660
08-01-10, 03:48 PM
FYI, The BMW comes with free full maintenance.

I'm pretty sure the 2011 Caddys come with free maintenance up to $50k miles; I think this includes the V-coupe as well.

mugatu22
08-01-10, 08:19 PM
A disgusting analysis... The V is the real winner, with good pricing, the quickest, the best looking and a bullet proof engine set up that can't be matched. I have an automatic, and love it. What about future repair cost and maintenance? There was no mention of service cost? I would not want to pay for servicing the other two vehicles.

A little defensive. The V isn't the winner in either magazine shootout actually, but I'm glad you enjoy your car. And as mentioned, service for the BMW is free.


...at the end of the day, the focus on the V Coupe's interior quality and achingly slow automatic transmission are valid points of criticism that are echoed on these forums all the time. So, again, GM bring on the dual clutch manual/automatic.

+1. Interior quality, slow transmission, no DCT option.


They were comparing an auto against an auto. The auto has been proven over and over again to be quicker than the manual in the V. They stated that the transmissions in the other two cars were better. Not a big deal. Also your last comment there was ignorant and made absolutely no sense. In your opinion the auto is only good for those things. Thankfully not everything thinks that way.

+1 Auto vs auto seems fair to me. The V's auto isn't as good, move on.


FYI, The BMW comes with free full maintenance.

I think the '11 V Coupes come with maintenance as well now. Good call Cadillac.

Good article too. Everyone is defensive of what they own, so no surprised that several here are butt-hurt over the Motor Trend and C&D articles. Surprisingly, I will leave it at that.

mugatu22
08-01-10, 08:22 PM
The car magazines generally pick which vehicles to "compare" that any car enthusiast sees as transparent bias from the start. Writers are enamored with "import" cars, reporting a predetermined agenda that comes to the conclusion based on their original intent.

You speak with such certainty about automotive journalists and their ethics, agendas and professionalism; are you one, or do you just pretend to know it all?

V&Vette
08-01-10, 08:30 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa,.... in no way was my comment meant to offend anyone, the least of which our auto owning members. My apologies if I did. My last comment was just restating something we here in our community have been agreeing on for some time. That is,... the auto is quicker than the manual especially in a straight line, but the manual connects you more with both the road, and more importantly, with the car. We've ended that debate long ago consuming many threads in here. We've also commented many times about the convenience of the auto over the manual, especially as a daily driver and in a family environment where the wife might a co-driver. Granted, the wife comment was meant to be light-hearted, but nonetheless, the comment have been made and most can relate to it. The last problem on earth our cars have to deal with or explain away is speed and quickness,... no matter what transmission is comes to the party with. It was the other stuff we find ourselves explaining away,... other stuff like the dated automatic transmission GM gives us as an alternative to the Manual Box. Ironically, our Tremac Manual gets better scores than the 6 speed manual boxes fitted to the BMW.

But here's where you're wrong,... the Caddy was the ONLY automatic in the comparo. The BMW and the Audi were equipped with manual boxes,... automated manuals to be precise. You have to come to grips with the fact that there's a different between an automatic transmission and a manual transmission that changes gears by itself,... or if you like, automatically in some automated fashion. Most of us think that this difference played a major role in the outcome of both the MT and C&D articles,... at least I'm convinced it did. But please don't mis-understand my probable poor choice of words,... the auto V ain't no slouch. The record around 'The Ring' was set with an auto V,... I'm not lost to that and I doubt any of the rest of us are. But for this comparison, the mags dug deep to point out all of the CTS-V Coupe's shortcomings,... and at the top of this list was the automatic transmission. You have to admit, when compared to BMW's and Audi's automated manual boxes, an old school hydraulic planetary slush-box ain't gonna get it. And I don't think that that's a dig at GM's Hydramatic specifically,... most old school slush-box prolly would have gotten the same treatment at this time. Save maybe MB's 7 speed automatic. Most agree it's one of the best on the planet.

My only point was to suggest that instead of attempting to match the level of human interaction needed to change the gears, a more leveled playing field would have been achieved by attempting to match the type of gears being changed.

Again,... my apologies if I came off wrong and offended anyone!

No problem, I just hate when people hate on autos. I see though now that it wasn't your attention to do so. :highfive:

You're absolutely right when comparing the transmissions of BMW/Audi to the V. The DCT in the M3 is a great transmission and I think we're all hoping that GM improves upon this much needed trait in upcoming V models. Its amazing to see what Jessie's moderate tune with these cars do to their overall 60ft times.

V&Vette
08-01-10, 08:33 PM
I'm pretty sure the 2011 Caddys come with free maintenance up to $50k miles; I think this includes the V-coupe as well.

I heard the same. I was just responding because someone was curious to what the overall maintenance cost of the M3 was. It's free!! Just like the V in 2011...yes....I should have waited a few more months!

V&Vette
08-01-10, 08:39 PM
Good article too. Everyone is defensive of what they own, so no surprised that several here are butt-hurt over the Motor Trend and C&D articles. Surprisingly, I will leave it at that.

Agreed. I think the M&T article was well written. I stuck with them when they took the V over the Jag/M5 and a close contest with the E63. No reason to wander now. They really praised the V and touched upon an excellent point, in that its amazing to be discussing a Caddy in the same sentence as these other cars. Cadillac is relevant because of the V and that's a huge point!

Now the upgrades need to be adhered too and implemented. If so, we'll have a car that OWNS anything close in the price bracket!

ericpd
08-01-10, 09:59 PM
Again for those who haven't been listening (hint: mugatu22 & V&Vette),... the CTS-V Coupe was the ONLY automatic in that shootout. The ONLY ONE!!! The BMW and the Audi were manual transmissions rigged to shift thru their manual gears with less to no human input using automated gear shifting schemes. Period! My God men,... stop announcing to the world that your collective brains are stuck in neutral! Maybe I should say,... P for Park!

SleepTight
08-01-10, 10:16 PM
Again for those who haven't been listening (hint: mugatu22 & V&Vette),... the CTS-V Coupe was the ONLY automatic in that shootout. The ONLY ONE!!! The BMW and the Audi were manual transmissions rigged to shift thru their manual gears with less to no human input using automated gear shifting schemes. Period! My God men,... stop announcing to the world that your collective brains are stuck in neutral! Maybe I should say,... P for Park!

I don't find your claim that the M3 had an "automated" manual to be very convincing. BMW sells the M3 with a true manual six-speed (and it's a great manual transmission) but BMW gets $2900 for the M Double Clutch Transmission that was used in the test.

Regardless of nomenclature, the fact remains that dual clutch manual automatics are superior technology. That's why they are used in race cars as well as the most advanced sports cars. The V's lack of that option in 2011 is the primary reason why the V is beginning to suffer in comparisons with other sports cars. Should GM make the mistake of releasing the V in 2012 without a DCT option, the car will no longer have any credible claim to being the best sports sedan in the World.

mugatu22
08-01-10, 10:57 PM
Again for those who haven't been listening (hint: mugatu22 & V&Vette),... the CTS-V Coupe was the ONLY automatic in that shootout. The ONLY ONE!!! The BMW and the Audi were manual transmissions rigged to shift thru their manual gears with less to no human input using automated gear shifting schemes. Period! My God men,... stop announcing to the world that your collective brains are stuck in neutral! Maybe I should say,... P for Park!

Wow Eric, 'cummon man. You've made much stronger arguments in the V's favor than this, which is so weak it's almost laughable. You're arguing semantics rather than reality.

All 3 cars were non-stick shift, non manuals. All 3 were "autos" for all intents & purposes. That the Caddy was the only "true" slushbox w/a torque converter is unfortunate and only highlights our desire to see what the V could do w/a DCT, as well as highlight that GM is behind the technology curve.

trans_lux
08-02-10, 12:38 AM
I thought it was a fairly positive review as well.
I think this says it all-"The best steering of the bunch"
Buy a manual and never look back.

ericpd
08-02-10, 01:46 AM
I don't find your claim that the M3 had an "automated" manual to be very convincing. BMW sells the M3 with a true manual six-speed (and it's a great manual transmission) but BMW gets $2900 for the M Double Clutch Transmission that was used in the test.

Regardless of nomenclature, the fact remains that dual clutch manual automatics are superior technology. That's why they are used in race cars as well as the most advanced sports cars. The V's lack of that option in 2011 is the primary reason why the V is beginning to suffer in comparisons with other sports cars. Should GM make the mistake of releasing the V in 2012 without a DCT option, the car will no longer have any credible claim to being the best sports sedan in the World.

Alright,... let's put it this way so you grab hold of it. BMW has two manual transmissions,... one with 6 forward gears which you have to push in a clutch with your foot first then you gotta change the gears yourself, and another one that they charge a $2900 premium for but what you get for that premium are not 6 forward gears but 7 forward gears, and you ain't gotta change the gears yourself,... unless you want to. Now this $2900 one got an extra clutch in it too! One clutch handling gears 1,3,5 & 7 on one main spline while the other clutch handles gears 2,4,6 & reverse on a second main spline. Wow,... two main splines,... in one box. I guess you could say that's like almost having two manual transmissions in one box. Uhmmm! Kinda like two loggers workin' in tandem chopping down a tree! Now they say they made it that way so this thing can change the gears real real fast,... I mean really fast. In the end,... both are manual transmissions as far as their DNA, but do differ in their scheme for changing gears and how fast that gets down, and who does the changing. I guess this is why they call the SMG's, DCT's and PDK's and the like, Automated instead of Automatic. True Automatics aren't built on the spline architecture,... their DNA is planetary. There's a whole bunch of other significant differences between the two as well, but the Spline vs Planetary is the biggie!

But I do agree with you when you say that this generation of Automated Manuals (SMG's, DCT, & PDK's) are a superior technology over hydralic planetary systems (automatics) and single spline "true manuals", as what you called BMW's 6 speed. I also agree that Caddy's lack of have this technology as an option is hurting the V. But wait,... GM could take the path Mercedes did and yank the Torque Converter out of their Hydramatic and slap a wet clutch or some other coupling scheme in it's place. Hey it's working for them, and they were in a worst place than GM is in now,... they haven't had a Manual box for years. And I mean years! At least GM gave us a choice with the V. Think of all the AMG guys over the last couple years,... they didn't even have a choice. And now you can only get their, what I like to call it, 'compromise' MCT box in the SLS and the E-Class AMG's. I think I read somewhere it may be available in the S-Class AMG for 2011 or 2012,... but what about the C-Class AMG?

ericpd
08-02-10, 01:56 AM
Wow Eric, 'cummon man. You've made much stronger arguments in the V's favor than this, which is so weak it's almost laughable. You're arguing semantics rather than reality.

All 3 cars were non-stick shift, non manuals. All 3 were "autos" for all intents & purposes. That the Caddy was the only "true" slushbox w/a torque converter is unfortunate and only highlights our desire to see what the V could do w/a DCT, as well as highlight that GM is behind the technology curve.

Ok,... I buy that argument, save your continued contention that "All 3 were 'autos' for all intents & Purposes". There's a huge difference between planetary vs spline DNA, and how that difference impacts the performance of a car is major, especially going around a course. Beyond that, I agree with you 100%. But my argument was not in support of Caddy, GM or the V,... it was about not confusing the DCT as an automatic, and therefore not making the gross mistake of lumping and matching the GM Hydramatic in the same category as the German Automated Manuals. Those two are nowhere near the same, and shouldn't be viewed as similar just because the gears can change by themselves. Now I did relax a little when it came to Merc's MCT,... that and the GM Hydramatic do belong in the same pigeon hole. They are both automatic transmission, just different coupling strategies.

Automatics are great and in most circles preferred when all it's got to do is to quickly propel a vehicle forward. You can't beat a high stall Torque Converter for that kinda work. But for course work, where a transmission has more chores to do, a manual transmission is preferred,... whether you change the gears yourself or the box does it for you.

But you're right, Caddy needs to catch up and offer us better technology,... can't argue that one!

V&Vette
08-02-10, 02:16 PM
Wow Eric, 'cummon man. You've made much stronger arguments in the V's favor than this, which is so weak it's almost laughable. You're arguing semantics rather than reality.

All 3 cars were non-stick shift, non manuals. All 3 were "autos" for all intents & purposes. That the Caddy was the only "true" slushbox w/a torque converter is unfortunate and only highlights our desire to see what the V could do w/a DCT, as well as highlight that GM is behind the technology curve.

+1. His argument was so bad that I really don't feel like debating it. It makes no sense. Since the DCT is so close to a manual it can't be considered an auto?? That's just plain moronic. :cookoo:

V&Vette
08-02-10, 02:18 PM
Ok,... I buy that argument, save your continued contention that "All 3 were 'autos' for all intents & Purposes". There's a huge difference between planetary vs spline DNA, and how that difference impacts the performance of a car is major, especially going around a course. Beyond that, I agree with you 100%. But my argument was not in support of Caddy, GM or the V,... it was about not confusing the DCT as an automatic, and therefore not making the gross mistake of lumping and matching the GM Hydramatic in the same category as the German Automated Manuals. Those two are nowhere near the same, and shouldn't be viewed as similar just because the gears can change by themselves. Now I did relax a little when it came to Merc's MCT,... that and the GM Hydramatic do belong in the same pigeon hole. They are both automatic transmission, just different coupling strategies.

Automatics are great and in most circles preferred when all it's got to do is to quickly propel a vehicle forward. You can't beat a high stall Torque Converter for that kinda work. But for course work, where a transmission has more chores to do, a manual transmission is preferred,... whether you change the gears yourself or the box does it for you.

But you're right, Caddy needs to catch up and offer us better technology,... can't argue that one!

Its still considered an auto and thus no third pedal. Simple, its a better auto w/o a torque converter. Stick to the point of an all manual comparison then.

JFJr
08-02-10, 04:29 PM
As others have said, the V coupe's true competition is the M6. Would it be too much to ask to have them go head-to-head with manual transmissions (no DCT's allowed)?

Jud

SleepTight
08-02-10, 05:12 PM
As others have said, the V coupe's true competition is the M6. Would it be too much to ask to have them go head-to-head with manual transmissions (no DCT's allowed)?

Jud

For one thing, the number of manual transmission M6s sold by BMW is very small. The awful previous generation 7-speed SMG is standard while the manual transmission is a no-cost option. Think back to the first year the E60 M5 was introduced--no manual available--you had to buy it with the SMG and only the complaints of the automotive press and their customer base (plus the fact that BMW ultimately realized that the SMG was a very unsatisfactory product) brought the full manual tranny back.

That also sort of points up why it's silly to keep hoping the car magazines will do an all manual transmission comparo with a V-coupe. The percentage of people buying manual transmissions in sports cars now is vanishingly small and getting smaller every year. Car magazines test what people are most likely to buy (and also the coolest technology which is a double vote for DCT). Manuals are always way more popular among automotive forum members than the general public because we represent the top 1% of car enthusiasts and are therefore self-selecting.

In any event, the whole "manual to manual" gripe is merely papering over the problem that GM needs to confront--devoting the resources necessary to build an automatic that is worthy of this incredible car that they somehow managed to conjur up. I love my V now and I think it's better than the M5, M3, or M6 regardless of what the automotive press says. I'd just love my V more with a better automatic.

wfo
08-02-10, 05:19 PM
No way in hell the M3 gets a nod over the V...have you driven an M3 lately. Very slow. The V rips down form the bottom all the way thru the range. I'm not a huge fan of the Coupe, not crazy about the huge doors. But it's no 3rd place ride and you know that.

ericpd
08-02-10, 06:29 PM
Its still considered an auto and thus no third pedal. Simple, its a better auto w/o a torque converter. Stick to the point of an all manual comparison then.

Ok,... you win! If you want to go through life believing that there's no difference between the DCT, MSG & PDK's of the world and the GM Hydramatic, simply because neither of the four requires shifting and none of the four requires a third peddle in the cars equipped with them,... then have at it. The rest of us will move on understanding that there is a fundamental and meaningful difference between the two architectures. An understanding that what makes them different does not lie in who changes the gears,... you or it, but in how the gears are laid out and whether the box is planetary/band based or not.

LOL,... in the late 70's, or maybe it was the early 80's, VW came out with a clutchless manual transmission. This option retained the stick on the floor, had no mechanism that changed gears for you, and no paddle shifters on the steering wheel or column. Guess what,... it also didn't have a 'third pedal'. So I guess according to your argument ("It's still considered an auto and thus no third pedal"), we should have called that old VW transmission option an 'automatic'. And maybe we should start coming to grips with the fact that F1 cars are also fitted with automatic gear boxes.

ericpd
08-02-10, 07:01 PM
In any event, the whole "manual to manual" gripe is merely papering over the problem that GM needs to confront--devoting the resources necessary to build an automatic that is worthy of this incredible car that they somehow managed to conjur up. I love my V now and I think it's better than the M5, M3, or M6 regardless of what the automotive press says. I'd just love my V more with a better automatic.

I disagree,... I don't think GM should spend not another dime on development as far as their aging Hydramatic platform. Today's Multi-Clutch technology has gotten good enough for them to refocus those dimes and resources to developing a dependable and modern multi-clutch coupling system. Caddy doesn't need a better automatic, it needs a modern automated transmission. The automatic they have now is a good one believe it or not, it's just not suited to performance platforms, as most automatics aren't. Leave the automatics to the more pedestrian sedans & family movers. BMW also has a very good automatic transmission in it's stables, but you won't find them in any M cars. What you will find in their M cars are their proven multi-clutch automated manuals. Same with Porsche and Audi. Caddy needs to remove the automatic from their V Series cars all together and replace them with a MCT or PDK of their own.

V&Vette
08-02-10, 07:09 PM
No way in hell the M3 gets a nod over the V...have you driven an M3 lately. Very slow. The V rips down form the bottom all the way thru the range. I'm not a huge fan of the Coupe, not crazy about the huge doors. But it's no 3rd place ride and you know that.

I chose the V over the M3 when I was looking at both.

V&Vette
08-02-10, 07:18 PM
Ok,... you win! If you want to go through life believing that there's no difference between the DCT, MSG & PDK's of the world and the GM Hydramatic, simply because neither of the four requires shifting and none of the four requires a third peddle in the cars equipped with them,... then have at it. The rest of us will move on understanding that there is a fundamental and meaningful difference between the two architectures. An understanding that what makes them different does not lie in who changes the gears,... you or it, but in how the gears are laid out and whether the box is planetary/band based or not.

LOL,... in the late 70's, or maybe it was the early 80's, VW came out with a clutchless manual transmission. This option retained the stick on the floor, had no mechanism that changed gears for you, and no paddle shifters on the steering wheel or column. Guess what,... it also didn't have a 'third pedal'. So I guess according to your argument ("It's still considered an auto and thus no third pedal"), we should have called that old VW transmission option an 'automatic'.

Who's the rest of us? No one agrees with you. In your mind for some unknown reason, you're making up some BS about not understanding the difference between AUTO transmissions. Do you understand that they are all autos including the V's hydramatic. Go to the BMW forum and tell everyone with a DCT that they have a manual...I need a laugh. What's the point of driving a manual if your obsurd theory is true? No one is disagreeing that there is a huge difference between a DCT, PDK and hydramatics. Everyone on this forum realizes the transmissions are different. They still are not true manual transmissions thus why each company still makes....A MANUAL. There is no reasoning with some people I see. Keep thinking just because certain transmission types are good that they are manuals. According to you, because of how the gears are laid out makes the difference between an auto and manual. So I guess all people that change gearing in auto's can now be considered manuals. Better tell all the Vette guys with 456's, 410's, etc. Wow, amazing.

snzuloz
08-02-10, 07:27 PM
I disagree,... I don't think GM should spend not another dime on development as far as their aging Hydramatic platform. Today's Multi-Clutch technology has gotten good enough for them to refocus those dimes and resources to developing a dependable and modern multi-clutch coupling system. Caddy doesn't need a better automatic, it needs a modern automated transmission. The automatic they have now is a good one believe it or not, it's just not suited to performance platforms, as most automatics aren't. Leave the automatics to the more pedestrian sedans & family movers. BMW also has a very good automatic transmission in it's stables, but you won't find them in any M cars. What you will find in their M cars are their proven multi-clutch automated manuals. Same with Porsche and Audi. Caddy needs to remove the automatic from their V Series cars all together and replace them with a MCT or PDK of their own.

someone sure hates automatics :suspect: I have absolutely no problems having an auto in my V, why is everyone so against this tranny? funny how an auto can handle 600+ rear wheel horsepower and not be suited for performance! I'm sure G.M. has other things in the works, not sure why they need to change when they could alter what they have and make things that much better (throw a tune in etc).

ericpd
08-02-10, 07:48 PM
Who's the rest of us? No one agrees with you. In your mind for some unknown reason, you're making up some BS about not understanding the difference between AUTO transmissions. Do you understand that they are all autos including the V's hydramatic. Go to the BMW forum and tell everyone with a DCT that they have a manual...I need a laugh. What's the point of driving a manual if your obsurd theory is true? No one is disagreeing that there is a huge difference between a DCT, PDK and hydramatics. Everyone on this forum realizes the transmissions are different. They still are not true manual transmissions thus why each company still makes....A MANUAL. There is no reasoning with some people I see. Keep thinking just because certain transmission types are good that they are manuals. According to you, because of how the gears are laid out makes the difference between an auto and manual. So I guess all people that change gearing in auto's can now be considered manuals. Better tell all the Vette guys with 456's, 410's, etc. Wow, amazing.

The rest of us are those who have enough brain cells to understand the difference between a automatic and an automated transmission. Yes they are 'true manuals',... their coupling systems are different. In your brain, what makes a manual transmission box a true manual transmission is the technology glue to the front of it. If it's just a plain simple clutch plate, then it's a true manual. How immature! But if there's a high technology multi-clutch system with a sophisticated gear changing mechanism glued to the front end of a manual box,... then in your head, that manual box all of a sudden becomes an Automatic box. Now how damn dumb is that?

If this conversation were over in the BMW forum, we would have been told long ago,... "Guys,... we figured that out a long time ago,... that ain't news. What do you think,... we're idiots? We're smart enough to know the difference between a manual transmission that changes gears for you and an automatic transmission. Geez,... it would take a bunch of Caddy guys to have taken this long to figure that out".

And that last little bit about automatic owners electing to change the gears themselves all of a sudden become owners of manual transmission,... confirms that you're still stuck on stupid. Again,... it's not who or what changes the gears that's the defining difference between an automatic and a manual transmission,... not anymore, not in today's automotive world. Car makers have installed little tricks on both boxes allowing the driver to deviate. From tapping the stick left to right or up and down to simulate manual shifting on automatics, to installing hi-tech systems on manuals allowing manuals to change gears by themselves. None of these tricks or technologies change the basic DNA of the box they are attached to. The automatics remains an automatic, and the manual remains a manual.

V&Vette
08-02-10, 08:23 PM
The rest of us are those who have enough brain cells to understand the difference between a automatic and an automated transmission. Yes they are 'true manuals',... their coupling systems are different. In your brain, what makes a manual transmission box a true manual transmission is the technology glue to the front of it. If it's just a plain simple clutch plate, then it's a true manual. How immature! But if there's a high technology multi-clutch system with a sophisticated gear changing mechanism glued to the front end of a manual box,... then in your head, that manual box all of a sudden becomes an Automatic box. Now how damn dumb is that?

If this conversation were over in the BMW forum, we would have been told long ago,... "Guys,... we figured that out a long time ago,... that ain't news. What do you think,... we're idiots? We're smart enough to know the difference between a manual transmission that changes gears for you and an automatic transmission. Geez,... it would take a bunch of Caddy guys to have taken this long to figure that out".

And that last little bit about automatic owners electing to change the gears themselves all of a sudden become owners of manual transmission,... confirms that you're still stuck on stupid. Again,... it's not who or what changes the gears that's the defining difference between an automatic and a manual transmission,... not anymore, not in today's automotive world. Car makers have installed little tricks on both boxes allowing the driver to deviate. From tapping the stick left to right or up and down to simulate manual shifting on automatics, to installing hi-tech systems on manuals allowing manuals to change gears by themselves. None of these tricks or technologies change the basic DNA of the box they are attached to. The automatics remains an automatic, and the manual remains a manual.

Its apparent you have absolutely no life, the intelligence of a microbe and live on a far away place called fantasy. There really is no way of getting through to you. Go call BMW and Mercedes and let them know that there is no difference between manuals and auto's. No one has agreed with you, its called being alone, probably like you are in life I would assume. True manuals...you made me laugh on that one...talk about being lost. Get a clue guy for you now look like a fool. Not that you didn't before but it wasn't 100% firm. Oh nice make believe comment about "Caddy guys". I'm willing to bet you're an "internet guy" driving around in a Kia wishing he/she could afford a real car.

BTW, check out BMW, Mercedes, Caddy, etc. They sell auto's and manuals. No matter the tranny type (DCT, etc) they are advertised as such. But in your world, whatever you say goes. Thankfully why its called "your world". Unfortunately for you, no one else lives in this fantasy/delusional land. Making things up in your little fantasy world doesn't make it true. You're not even arguing the right facts which is why most on this site are not giving you the time or day of an argument. Must be my "brain cells". LoL, tool

V&Vette
08-02-10, 08:28 PM
The rest of us are those who have enough brain cells to understand the difference between a automatic and an automated transmission. Yes they are 'true manuals',... their coupling systems are different. In your brain, what makes a manual transmission box a true manual transmission is the technology glue to the front of it. If it's just a plain simple clutch plate, then it's a true manual. How immature! But if there's a high technology multi-clutch system with a sophisticated gear changing mechanism glued to the front end of a manual box,... then in your head, that manual box all of a sudden becomes an Automatic box. Now how damn dumb is that?

When did I say that? Are you drunk or a re-tard? Immature, yup you got it. There you go mixing and matching words in wrong scenarios again. Do you slur when you speak as well?



If this conversation were over in the BMW forum, we would have been told long ago,... "Guys,... we figured that out a long time ago,... that ain't news. What do you think,... we're idiots? We're smart enough to know the difference between a manual transmission that changes gears for you and an automatic transmission. Geez,... it would take a bunch of Caddy guys to have taken this long to figure that out".

I don't think the Caddy guys need to respond to this. Considering the source, its safe to say that the opposite of what you say probably holds true. Drive away in your Kia already.



The automatics remains an automatic, and the manual remains a manual.

Now you're getting it. Atta boy, way to learn and adapt.

ericpd
08-02-10, 08:49 PM
someone sure hates automatics :suspect: I have absolutely no problems having an auto in my V, why is everyone so against this tranny? funny how an auto can handle 600+ rear wheel horsepower and not be suited for performance! I'm sure G.M. has other things in the works, not sure why they need to change when they could alter what they have and make things that much better (throw a tune in etc).

No snzuloz, I do not hate automatics. The car I bought before my 09 V was a C32 AMG,... it's only flavor is an automatic. My problem is not a automatic vs manual problem, my problem is with confusing the terms automatic with automated,... they are not inter-changeable.

ericpd
08-02-10, 09:31 PM
Its apparent you have absolutely no life, the intelligence of a microbe and live on a far away place called fantasy. There really is no way of getting through to you. Go call BMW and Mercedes and let them know that there is no difference between manuals and auto's. No one has agreed with you, its called being alone, probably like you are in life I would assume. True manuals...you made me laugh on that one...talk about being lost. Get a clue guy for you now look like a fool. Not that you didn't before but it wasn't 100% firm. Oh nice make believe comment about "Caddy guys". I'm willing to bet you're an "internet guy" driving around in a Kia wishing he/she could afford a real car.

BTW, check out BMW, Mercedes, Caddy, etc. They sell auto's and manuals. No matter the tranny type (DCT, etc) they are advertised as such. But in your world, whatever you say goes. Thankfully why its called "your world". Unfortunately for you, no one else lives in this fantasy/delusional land. Making things up in your little fantasy world doesn't make it true. You're not even arguing the right facts which is why most on this site are not giving you the time or day of an argument. Must be my "brain cells". LoL, tool

It's not me who's touting that there's no difference between an manuals and autos,... it's you. You should be making that call to MBW and Mercedes. It was also you that introduced the term 'true manual' into this discussion,... not me. It doesn't surprise me that may appear to be a fool in your eyes,... most fools think that of non-fools attempting to reach them. That's a classic stance. And the Caddy guys I was referring to in my supposing what the BMW guys would say, was basically,... well just you! I think the rest of us in here understand the difference between an automatic transmission and a manual transmission tricked out to change gears by itself. You're the only one who appears to have missed that.

What we do agree on is this,.... Caddy needs to step it up with our car's choice of transmissions. I agree 100% with that. I'm for ending development of the current automatic transmission platform and adopting and/or improving upon some of the today's multi-clutch automated schemes and attach it to the front end of a 7 speed Tremac manual.

And guess what,... you're right again, I am technically a Kia owner. I bought a used Sorento for my daughter two last summer. Wow,... you do have powers!

SleepTight
08-02-10, 10:24 PM
I disagree,... I don't think GM should spend not another dime on development as far as their aging Hydramatic platform. Today's Multi-Clutch technology has gotten good enough for them to refocus those dimes and resources to developing a dependable and modern multi-clutch coupling system. Caddy doesn't need a better automatic, it needs a modern automated transmission. The automatic they have now is a good one believe it or not, it's just not suited to performance platforms, as most automatics aren't. Leave the automatics to the more pedestrian sedans & family movers. BMW also has a very good automatic transmission in it's stables, but you won't find them in any M cars. What you will find in their M cars are their proven multi-clutch automated manuals. Same with Porsche and Audi. Caddy needs to remove the automatic from their V Series cars all together and replace them with a MCT or PDK of their own.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I agree with you 100% that GM should put a dual clutch manual-automatic in the 2012 V and I'm hoping that if they see there is real demand for it, GM will put the necessary resources behind it. See my post here http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/206658-how-much-would-you-pay-dual.html The phrasing can be confusing, but when I said "better automatic" my first choice would be a DCT.

Looney100
08-02-10, 10:29 PM
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I agree with you 100% that GM should put a dual clutch manual-automatic in the 2012 V and I'm hoping that if they see there is real demand for it, GM will put the necessary resources behind it. See my post here http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/206658-how-much-would-you-pay-dual.html The phrasing can be confusing, but when I said "better automatic" my first choice would be a DCT.

Has anyone here driven the Lexus IS-F? The transmission in it is fantastic! An 8-speed auto (with torque converter), full manual control, and the thing shifts instantly when you hit the paddles. That is how an automatic transmission should work!

digital1021
08-02-10, 10:48 PM
One thing that commonly get over looked when bringing up these arguments are the different requirements the engines attached to these transmissions require. If you notice almost all, the Bugatti Veyron excepted, of the cars equipped with DSG, DCT, PDK, and so on aren't producing the amount of torque the V does.

The M3 for example produces about 280Ft.Lbs of torque, and does so at a much higher RPM than the V. The V is producing almost 120 additional Ft.Lbs. of torque at only 1000RPM's, that is a completely different type of load. Generally, "planetary" transmissions handle larger torque loads better than wet clutch automated manuals, with dry clutch "conventional" manuals being the most robust typically.

I am not saying that the 6L90E is perfect, far from it, but it is the best transmission currently available for amount of torque the LSA can produce. There is a reason why Mercedes stil uses the 5 Speed Auto for the V12TT cars, the new 7 and 8 Speed gear boxes can't handle the amount of torque the V12TT produces. I would like to see GM develop, or out source, a "DCT type" transmission, even a wet clutch coupling, that can handle the amount of torque the LSA produces.

Currently the stock 6L90E is rated for about 880Ft.Lbs of torque, which is about right for the LSA, as generally the Max Limit is at least 150% of the torque the most powerful engine offers. Considering we have people putting down ~650rwtq, which should be around 750-800Ft.Lbs at the motor, its a good thing it was over built.

~Matt

ericpd
08-02-10, 11:13 PM
Has anyone here driven the Lexus IS-F? The transmission in it is fantastic! An 8-speed auto (with torque converter), full manual control, and the thing shifts instantly when you hit the paddles. That is how an automatic transmission should work!

No I haven't driven one, but I have heard they are very good boxes and does a really good job of connecting the driver to the experience. I've also heard that at times it does a lot of hunting and pecking for gears under certain driving conditions. But I'm sure their equivalent of our Jessie could fix that in no time. I didn't mean to argue that there aren't any good auto's out there,... but I would argue that Lexus's IS-F and AMG's Speedshift 7 speed are exceptions.

mugatu22
08-02-10, 11:18 PM
Great points as usual, Digital.

The DCT and PDKs can handle the torque when built for it. Porsche's 911 Turbo & Panamera Turbo PDKs are two examples. 516TQ @2100-4250rpm.

Goooo GM, get on it!

ericpd
08-02-10, 11:23 PM
One thing that commonly get over looked when bringing up these arguments are the different requirements the engines attached to these transmissions require. If you notice almost all, the Bugatti Veyron excepted, of the cars equipped with DSG, DCT, PDK, and so on aren't producing the amount of torque the V does.

The M3 for example produces about 280Ft.Lbs of torque, and does so at a much higher RPM than the V. The V is producing almost 120 additional Ft.Lbs. of torque at only 1000RPM's, that is a completely different type of load. Generally, "planetary" transmissions handle larger torque loads better than wet clutch automated manuals, with dry clutch "conventional" manuals being the most robust typically.

I am not saying that the 6L90E is perfect, far from it, but it is the best transmission currently available for amount of torque the LSA can produce. There is a reason why Mercedes stil uses the 5 Speed Auto for the V12TT cars, the new 7 and 8 Speed gear boxes can't handle the amount of torque the V12TT produces. I would like to see GM develop, or out source, a "DCT type" transmission, even a wet clutch coupling, that can handle the amount of torque the LSA produces.

Currently the stock 6L90E is rated for about 880Ft.Lbs of torque, which is about right for the LSA, as generally the Max Limit is at least 150% of the torque the most powerful engine offers. Considering we have people putting down ~650rwtq, which should be around 750-800Ft.Lbs at the motor, its a good thing it was over built.

~Matt

Well said Matt! Torque is a big part of determining the selection of transmissions used. You're also right in pointing out that with BMW, we're talking about low torque high revving mills. Hell,... our stock LSA's put out more torque at idle than the M3's mill at the top of their band.

ericpd
08-02-10, 11:26 PM
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I agree with you 100% that GM should put a dual clutch manual-automatic in the 2012 V and I'm hoping that if they see there is real demand for it, GM will put the necessary resources behind it. See my post here http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/206658-how-much-would-you-pay-dual.html The phrasing can be confusing, but when I said "better automatic" my first choice would be a DCT.

Nah,... you made yourself clear. In all the dust, I prolly missed a lot of what you said. Sorry! I'm with you,... I too would like to see a dual clutch automated manual in a 2012 V. But Matt brought up an interesting point,... could a dual clutch setup handle the torque? A dual clutch setup would most likely would mean a box with two main backbones, each dedicated to one of the dual clutches and each carrying a set of gears (one backbone carrying the odd gears and the other carrying the evens and reverse). Could they fit all that in one box small enough to be practical and at the same time, still be robust enough to handle the V's torque. And for such R&D to make sense, it would have to sturdy enough to migrate up from the V to the ZR1 as well, which is even more torque. Uhmmm, I wonder if this is why the M5 and M6 still only sports the SMG while the less torque-ier M3 is blessed with the quicker shifting and more driver friendly DCT?

Oh,... I just realized something! Hey V&VETTE, guess what the 'M' stands for in SMG. Wanna take a crack at it? Alright, I'm done,... I'll let it die down now so we can get back to the business at hand, that is,... discussing how best Caddy prevent itself from being caught in the past. I just couldn't resist this last one!

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/tech_transmission.shtml

mugatu22
08-03-10, 01:20 AM
Uhmmm, I wonder if this is why the M5 and M6 still only sports the SMG while the less torque-ier M3 is blessed with the quicker shifting and more driver friendly DCT?


No, the M5 & M6 V10s aren't torque monsters either. They had the last/current gen M5/M6s set up on the assy' line for the SMG, guessin' they didn't want to develop and tool up a new section of line for a vehicle they're replacing this year...betcha dollars to donuts the upcoming 550HP+ twin turbo M5 & M6 will have the DCT.

digital1021
08-03-10, 02:09 AM
Great points as usual, Digital.

The DCT and PDKs can handle the torque when built for it. Porsche's 911 Turbo & Panamera Turbo PDKs are two examples. 516TQ @2100-4250rpm.

Goooo GM, get on it!

Currently, from what I can gather, the ZF 7DT-70/7DT-75 (a.k.a. PDK), used in the Porsche 911 & Panamera Turbos, is rated for between 575-600ft.lbs of torque, while I would say it would be adequate for an non-modded V, it would be pushed to it's limits under basic mods. The Ricardo DCT's in the Bugatti Veyron is rated for 922ft.lbs of torque, just for reference. So there are certainly DCT out there that would be capable of of handling the load, the question is, unfortunately, how much. Hopefully, with the CTS moving up market in its 3rd generation to make room for the ATS, the next CTS-V will be equipped with a more desirable transmission.

~ Matt.

digital1021
08-03-10, 02:17 AM
No, the M5 & M6 V10s aren't torque monsters either. They had the last/current gen M5/M6s set up on the assy' line for the SMG, guessin' they didn't want to develop and tool up a new section of line for a vehicle they're replacing this year...betcha dollars to donuts the upcoming 550HP+ twin turbo M5 & M6 will have the DCT.

It is possible, and I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. However, I would also consider the fact that a very similar drive train is offered in the X5/6 M's, and they are using a beefed up 6sp auto. I would be more willing to bet on a 8sp ZF 8HP70 or 8HP90 used in the BMW 760i and Rolls Royce Ghost, rated at 516ft.lbs and 663ft.lbs respectively.

~ Matt

ericpd
08-03-10, 02:32 AM
No, the M5 & M6 V10s aren't torque monsters either. They had the last/current gen M5/M6s set up on the assy' line for the SMG, guessin' they didn't want to develop and tool up a new section of line for a vehicle they're replacing this year...betcha dollars to donuts the upcoming 550HP+ twin turbo M5 & M6 will have the DCT.

Yeah,... you're prolly right. I'm guessin' they'll have the new DCT too. But guess what,... those 4.4TT are suppose to be very torque happy. So they'll probably beef up the current DCT for duty behind the new 4.4.

ericpd
08-03-10, 02:49 AM
It is possible, and I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. However, I would also consider the fact that a very similar drive train is offered in the X5/6 M's, and they are using a beefed up 6sp auto. I would be more willing to bet on a 8sp ZF 8HP70 or 8HP90 used in the BMW 760i and Rolls Royce Ghost, rated at 516ft.lbs and 663ft.lbs respectively.

~ Matt

I don't know Matt,... I can see them using those beefed up auto's in the M versions of the X5 and X6. Those are totally different vehicles,... for the M3 and M6, I think a beefed up auto would be a step backwards, especially when you have SMG's and DCT's sitting around that could prolly handle things with a little tweaking. I don't think those purist BMW guys would be too happy loosing their quick shifting sequential manual boxes for a beefed up slush box. Hell,... that would basically put them in the same boat we're in. I could be wrong though,... I'm not a M car purist!

digital1021
08-03-10, 03:46 AM
I don't know Matt,... I can see them using those beefed up auto's in the M versions of the X5 and X6. Those are totally different vehicles,... for the M3 and M6, I think a beefed up auto would be a step backwards, especially when you have SMG's and DCT's sitting around that could prolly handle things with a little tweaking. I don't think those purist BMW guys would be too happy loosing their quick shifting sequential manual boxes for a beefed up slush box. I could be wrong though,... I'm not a M car purist!

Good point, though from what I can tell a lot of current M5 owners seem pretty upset about them going to a relatively low revving, tubo motor. From my understanding, the 8sp ZF will be able to make shifts directly from 8th to 2nd, when conditions call for it. Additionally, "planetary automatic transmissions" can shift almost as quickly as a DCT, so I still wouldn't rule it out. Either way, I am sure the new M5 will be a great car.

~ Matt

SleepTight
08-03-10, 09:52 AM
We don't know what kind of torque the F10 M5's version of the BMW 4.4-liter/twin turbo V-8 will put down, but it is reasonable to assume that torque will exceed that of the current M versions of the engine installed in the X5M/X6M and those engines are rated at 500 lb-ft. BMW has already confirmed that the new M5 will have a version of the BMW 7-speed M Double Clutch transmission. It obviously can be done.

Edited To correct torque specification.:bigroll:

digital1021
08-03-10, 01:12 PM
Wow, 5650ft.lbs., now that's some torque. Kidding...

~ Matt

Moparman4444
08-03-10, 01:57 PM
I don't think I would kick any one of these cars out of my garage for dripping oil!! I would be very happy driving any one of the three but I think that the V looks the best inside and out. I just wish it were AWD like the Audi so I could drive it in the fall and winter as well.

V&Vette
08-03-10, 02:39 PM
It's not me who's touting that there's no difference between an manuals and autos,... it's you. You should be making that call to MBW and Mercedes. It was also you that introduced the term 'true manual' into this discussion,... not me. It doesn't surprise me that may appear to be a fool in your eyes,... most fools think that of non-fools attempting to reach them. That's a classic stance. And the Caddy guys I was referring to in my supposing what the BMW guys would say, was basically,... well just you! I think the rest of us in here understand the difference between an automatic transmission and a manual transmission tricked out to change gears by itself. You're the only one who appears to have missed that.



Re-read your posts. You've changed your stance numerous times already. I'm done going back and forth with you. I was simply arguing that there are differences between an auto and manual. Not the difference between the two, the difference between DCT and Hydra, etc. Simply put for you to understand, there are inherent differences no matter the advancements in an auto. The two are still distinct no matter the variables.:rolleyes:

V&Vette
08-03-10, 03:03 PM
Oh,... I just realized something! Hey V&VETTE, guess what the 'M' stands for in SMG. Wanna take a crack at it? Alright, I'm done,... I'll let it die down now so we can get back to the business at hand, that is,... discussing how best Caddy prevent itself from being caught in the past. I just couldn't resist this last one!

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/tech_transmission.shtml

Do you still not notice that i've never debated with you the actual technical specs of the various transmissions, etc? In fact, i've mentioned several times that Caddy needs to catch up in this area. Re-read my posts, especially in other treads and you'll see that.

ericpd
08-03-10, 03:54 PM
Do you still not notice that i've never debated with you the actual technical specs of the various transmissions, etc? In fact, i've mentioned several times that Caddy needs to catch up in this area. Re-read my posts, especially in other treads and you'll see that.

Bull**** Vette,... your whole argument has been fashioned around your contention that all three cars were automatics. My whole argument was based on illuminating the fallacy in your argument. For the last time, the ONLY ride in that comparo fitted with an automatic transmission was the CTS-V. The BMW and the Audi came to the party dressed in Automated Manuals,... or if you like, Sequential Manual Gearboxes! You re-read your posts. Now let's stop this non-sense and move on!

V&Vette
08-03-10, 08:05 PM
Bull**** Vette,... your whole argument has been fashioned around your contention that all three cars were automatics. My whole argument was based on illuminating the fallacy in your argument. For the last time, the ONLY ride in that comparo fitted with an automatic transmission was the CTS-V. The BMW and the Audi came to the party dressed in Automated Manuals,... or if you like, Sequential Manual Gearboxes! You re-read your posts. Now let's stop this non-sense and move on!

LoL, I understand what saying and have for the entire convo. In fact, i've agreed with you that the V needs to step it up in this specific arena (tranny). If the V had something along the lines of a DCT then I could imagine mid 3's, 0-60.
FYI, I've owned pure torque converted cars auto's in the past that would give a DCT/SMG a run in the quarter. Of course these cars were fitted with PT4400 Yank converters which died past 120mph but that's another story...for another time.

ericpd
08-03-10, 10:04 PM
LoL, I understand what saying and have for the entire convo. In fact, i've agreed with you that the V needs to step it up in this specific arena (tranny). If the V had something along the lines of a DCT then I could imagine mid 3's, 0-60.
FYI, I've owned pure torque converted cars auto's in the past that would give a DCT/SMG a run in the quarter. Of course these cars were fitted with PT4400 Yank converters which died past 120mph but that's another story...for another time.

LOL,... For some strange reason, I kinda suspected you did. Can't imagine a guy with a V2 and a Vette would let a singular factor like 'what or who changed gears' smoke and confuse him as to whether the box under discussion itself was a manual or an automatic. I can see my mother or my sister being fooled by that, but not any of us. We cool?!?!? Good!

Actually, I'd say the auto is best for 0-60 timing and the 1/4. Makers don't have to play a lot of retard and de-activation tricks under WOT to save on warranty dollars. Plus high stall TC's can be tricked out to the point where they actually put more torque out than they receive. My uncle's friend had an old 440 Cuda that had a tricked out Torque Flight, and that thing would knock your teeth down your throat every time it changed gears under WOT. Amazing! Now that's old school,... real old school.

Domsz06
08-04-10, 09:40 AM
they really dogged the v because of the auto transmission at autobaugh speeds.... last time I checked we dont' have an autobaughn in the US, LOL. Damn writers...

gnxs
08-04-10, 10:47 AM
One thing that commonly get over looked when bringing up these arguments are the different requirements the engines attached to these transmissions require. If you notice almost all, the Bugatti Veyron excepted, of the cars equipped with DSG, DCT, PDK, and so on aren't producing the amount of torque the V does.

The M3 for example produces about 280Ft.Lbs of torque, and does so at a much higher RPM than the V. The V is producing almost 120 additional Ft.Lbs. of torque at only 1000RPM's, that is a completely different type of load. Generally, "planetary" transmissions handle larger torque loads better than wet clutch automated manuals, with dry clutch "conventional" manuals being the most robust typically.

I am not saying that the 6L90E is perfect, far from it, but it is the best transmission currently available for amount of torque the LSA can produce. There is a reason why Mercedes stil uses the 5 Speed Auto for the V12TT cars, the new 7 and 8 Speed gear boxes can't handle the amount of torque the V12TT produces. I would like to see GM develop, or out source, a "DCT type" transmission, even a wet clutch coupling, that can handle the amount of torque the LSA produces.

Currently the stock 6L90E is rated for about 880Ft.Lbs of torque, which is about right for the LSA, as generally the Max Limit is at least 150% of the torque the most powerful engine offers. Considering we have people putting down ~650rwtq, which should be around 750-800Ft.Lbs at the motor, its a good thing it was over built.

~Matt
Exactly. Saved me a bunch of typing. :thumbsup:

ericpd
08-04-10, 12:38 PM
they really dogged the v because of the auto transmission at autobaugh speeds.... last time I checked we dont' have an autobaughn in the US, LOL. Damn writers...

yeah,... you got a point there. The auto V seems to be geared to live happy cruising at around 80 or so. According to the article, it's auto gear box does a lot of hunting while doing duty on the autobahn. I believe I read something about the tall gears in the rear not being perfectly matched with the final ratio of the box. I think I also read that the rear is bigger in the manual V,... not sure what the ratios are though or how much they differ. But you're right, the auto V is gear for our highways,... not theirs. I would imagine hitting some gas mileage targets were also played a part in designing the auto's gear so tall. If I were cruising at or near 100, I'd be concerned too if the car dropped from 6th to 5th every time I gave it some gas.

I've think I've had my V up to about 110 or so very very briefly,... and it was very obvious that there was still a lot left. But the last thing on my mind (if I weren't so chicken) would have been to drop down to 5th to go after the rest. Maybe dropping down would have been SOP for those low torque, 7 speed, high revving BMW guys,... I dunno!

V&Vette
08-04-10, 01:10 PM
LOL,... For some strange reason, I kinda suspected you did. Can't imagine a guy with a V2 and a Vette would let a singular factor like 'what or who changed gears' smoke and confuse him as to whether the box under discussion itself was a manual or an automatic. I can see my mother or my sister being fooled by that, but not any of us. We cool?!?!? Good!

Actually, I'd say the auto is best for 0-60 timing and the 1/4. Makers don't have to play a lot of retard and de-activation tricks under WOT to save on warranty dollars. Plus high stall TC's can be tricked out to the point where they actually put more torque out than they receive. My uncle's friend had an old 440 Cuda that had a tricked out Torque Flight, and that thing would knock your teeth down your throat every time it changed gears under WOT. Amazing! Now that's old school,... real old school.

Yup, we're good. Owning a V is a fraternity, we're practically brothers for goodness sake. We all bs at each other sometimes but in the end, we're part of a collective unit, trying to see our cars improve.

BTW, the Cuda sounds bad@$$. I remember having the PT4400 Yank on the Maro, 456 gears, tons of suspension work, etc. That car in the 1/4 was just sick, past that though, done.

V&Vette
08-04-10, 01:15 PM
Someone on here mentioned the warranty with the Transmission. Excellent point, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these issues and reasons for the particular tranny in the V is partly due to warranty/cost efficiencies relating to the overall profit and loss statements.:helpless:

Jahan
08-07-10, 01:06 PM
You guys are making things too complicated. Two things matter in a transmission:

1. Who changes the gears
"manual" or "automatic"

2. How the power is transmitted.
direct mechanical connection via 1 or more clutches, or through a fluid coupling via a torque converter.

The problem with traditional automatics is that they transmit power through a non-direct fluid coupling. This causes excessive heat, shift delays, and power loss. They have come a long way, but they cannot and never will be able to match the performance of a good DCT. The only reason recent automatics are becoming more fuel efficient or faster than manuals is that a computer can optimize the shift schedule far better than a human, in some cases this is enough to make up for the inherent losses in a traditional automatic. However, this is NOT because an automatic is a better trans than a manual, it's because the ECU can control shifts better than a human.

While the shifting is automated in a DCT, everything else about them is similar to a manual. Drive a Porsche PDK or Audi DSG . . . they are fantastic transmissions. They shift quickly and crisply and do exactly what the driver wants 99% of the time (I haven't driven BMW's DCT, but their SMG was a joke).

Dual clutch transmissions are superior in nearly every way to any other type, unless you prefer the added "envolvment" of a third pedal (which I do, even though one of my cars has the DSG). It's not fair or reasonable to lump them in with traditional automatics for the purposes of enthusiast discussions.

However, to clam that this test was unfair because 2 were manuals and one is an auto is a bit of a stretch.

TMC CL65
08-07-10, 01:21 PM
I would add a third thing that matters.. reliability. You will notice that the only current stock "production car" running a DCT/DSG/MCT/PDK type transmission with torque figures above 516lbs-ft is the Bugatti Veyron. I would be curious to see how the Porsche PDK takes to higher hp/tq modifications. I think the new MB 5.4L TT-V8 is also going to be running an MCT tranny with 590lbs-ft of torque (660lbs-ft with AMG Performance package). I am sure they are going to thoroughly test the reliability, but no one has reviewed this tranny yet to see if any of the new, more robust internal pieces, are going to interfere with its functionality.

Tom

GMX322V S/C
08-07-10, 03:09 PM
You guys are making things too complicated. Two things matter in a transmission:

1. Who changes the gears
"manual" or "automatic"

2. How the power is transmitted.
direct mechanical connection via 1 or more clutches, or through a fluid coupling via a torque converter.

The problem with traditional automatics is that they transmit power through a non-direct fluid coupling...The has only been true for first gear for many years. Most, if not all, modern torque convertor-equipped planetary gearboxes lock the convertor from 2nd on up.

I used to think that the planetary gearset was less efficient than the constant-mesh helical cut gears in most manuals, but now I'm not so sure. Nowadays I think a lot of the inefficiency is due to having to drive the hydraulic pumps for the shifting mechanism. When the convertor and internal clutches are locked, they're locked. Don't most DCTs user electromechanical servos?

In any event, DCTs are fast shifters--no doubt, but planetarys can be made to shift very fast as well--but at some point, in an inverse relationship with service intervals! Save for the Bugatti's purpose-built and very expensive (to build AND service) DCT, planetaries can also be built to take much more power than conventional constant-mesh manual gearboxes--again, at some point, in an inverse relationship with service intervals.

ericpd
08-10-10, 10:28 AM
Agree with everything you posted,... except item #1. In this day and age of coupling technology, no longer does "Who changes the gears" dictate whether the box is a manual or an automatic. It's a clue,... a good one, but no longer the determining factor.

concorso
08-10-10, 02:10 PM
It still depends on who your are talking to. A performance enthusiast should know the basic differences between the tranmissions. Dont expect the average buyer to know this yet, tho. Try convincing my sister that she drives a manual (DSG) Golf, and she will argue till shes blue in the face that its an auto because she doesnt have to shift. Better yet, ask my good friend what trans his LP560 has, and he will say "automatic".

Saying that you cant compare an automatic to an automated manual is similar to saying you cant compare a dohc to a pushrod.

I cross shopped an M3 with the CTS-V Coupe even tho theyre supposedly in different classes....

ericpd
08-10-10, 04:32 PM
Yeah,... I guess got a point. One that Vette pointed out also. I guess I just assumed that everyone in here were performance enthusiasts, and was a little disappointed upon discovering that that might not be the case. Or until what appeared on the surface to be the case. But Vette was pullin' my leg it appears,... bet he was rolling all over the floor with the knowledge he could push any of my buttons at will. LOL!

I sorta cross shopped the M3 three as well. I say sorta because in reality I was cross shopping the M3 against the C63,... but that didn't last long. In the end, I more shoppped the C63 vs the V. The V is in a different class. Caddy is about to release their 3 series/C-class competitor soon from what I understand. But I do understand though,... pricing similarities makes it easy to jump back-n-forth between classes. Real easy! If you or I started out shopping for an M3 because you felt that's what you budget could handle, but found an uncle who said, "I'm disgusted with the world today, I'm gonna go live on a deserted island,... if you want my brand new one month old 2010 M6, just assume the pay-off. And after doing we math, we discovered that his healthy down payment put the pay-off at or near the same as the full price on a showroom M3, just how long do you think it would take for either of us to jump from a 3 series BMW to a 6 series BMW? Still,... that doesn't mean that C&D or MT to put these two in bed together for a shoot out! Still,... I got your point. Just wished the mags would have done a better job of matching classes, not prices. While knowing what's the best I can buy for 70k is good, I'd also like to know which of the cars in a particular class is best.

V&Vette
08-10-10, 06:10 PM
Speaking about the best car in the class and all, check out the fact that the 2010 E63 is now in the 70's with huge discounts being offered. Another forum member posted a few links about this.

I called Southampton MB and its true actually. Insane deal!

ericpd
08-10-10, 08:10 PM
Wow,... are you serious? A premium badge that originally sold in the 100 to 105 range is now bargain basement at 70! I got a feeling folks like us may be holding off on the 6.3 NA's opting for waiting on the 5.5 TT's. I've heard these same is happening over in the BMW camp,... their sales are way down too. I know BMW hasn't released a 2011 V10,... did MB release a 2011 6.3 or are all the E-Class AMG's 2010 models?

mugatu22
08-11-10, 01:09 AM
Wow,... are you serious? A premium badge that originally sold in the 100 to 105 range is now bargain basement at 70! I got a feeling folks like us may be holding off on the 6.3 NA's opting for waiting on the 5.5 TT's. I've heard these same is happening over in the BMW camp,... their sales are way down too. I know BMW hasn't released a 2011 V10,... did MB release a 2011 6.3 or are all the E-Class AMG's 2010 models?

Very true; the allocation was high from MBZ factory so the dealers had to blow them out. MBZ made a huge mistake going cheap on the '10 interiors too (sorry to beat that subject into the ground again...), w/the standard headliner, standard dash, plastics, etc. The '11 models are going back to alcantara headliner, stitched leather dash, etc. When peeps are paying $100k for a car they seem to want it fully loaded.

BeagleBrains
08-11-10, 09:37 AM
There are media sources that advocate and praise the CTS V.
http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2010/08/06/cadillacs-cts-v-coupe-makes-german-rivals-look-like-taxis/
Thankfully, we are graced by perspectives that are placed to inform and influence the public. :grouphug:

V&Vette
08-11-10, 01:03 PM
Wow,... are you serious? A premium badge that originally sold in the 100 to 105 range is now bargain basement at 70! I got a feeling folks like us may be holding off on the 6.3 NA's opting for waiting on the 5.5 TT's. I've heard these same is happening over in the BMW camp,... their sales are way down too. I know BMW hasn't released a 2011 V10,... did MB release a 2011 6.3 or are all the E-Class AMG's 2010 models?


As serious as a heart-attack. I think you're right, everyone is waiting for the new 5.5 TT's. Also, MB did end up releasing a 2011 MB E-Class AMG (6.3). For 70k though, even with the new engine coming out....what a steal.