: Aside from Cadillacs?



orconn
07-28-10, 12:56 PM
Aside from Cadillacs, in all their guises, is their another carmaker that has consistantly produced cars that you just had to have?

In thinking about what I have owned and what I wish I had owned, the products of certain carmakers keep recurring on the list. This isn't to say the some brands haven't had one or two attractive models. BMW 2002s and '80s 6 series coupes come to mind. But I am really thinking have consistantly produced one after another of truly desirable cars.

Two makers immediately spring to my mind. Jaguar and Alfa Romeo. While Jaguar definitely petered out in the 1970's, their post WW II models were really something unique. Starting with the XK120 and the Mark VII sedans in the late forties and early fifties and continuing on with the E-type and Mark II 3.8 & 4.2 litre sedans in the sixties and finally the original and absolutely brilliant XJ6 sedan. All exceptioanlly beautiful cars that set performance standards for others to follow. That isn't to say these cars didn't have there faults, but when it came to setting new standards for beautiful design, excellent handling (for their day) and exciting performance the Jaguar cars produced under the Sir William Lyons supervision were outstanding.

Unfortunately in the 1970's, after Sir William retired from the scene and Leyland took control, and on to the present Jaguars became just a rehash of former designs which lost some of the purity of design to regulatory requirements and over embellishment. Unfortunately this decline, which may be scene as other car makers catching up with and superceding Jaguar's strong points, while Jag languished.

The other company that, in my mind, has consistantly produced great cars that combined great performance and style would be Alfa Romeo. From the Giulias and Duettos of the '60s to the Milanos and 164's of the 80's and 90's, on to the 155's and 159's and Breras of the new millenium. All have shown beautiful design, exciting performace and super smooth feel and operation, in my experience only equalled by Cadillacand Jaguar, and to a lessser degree BMW.

What makes a car desirable is always subjective, but the above two makers always sem to come up with sometning to keep me coming back. The new crop of XK's from Jaguar and the 8C's from Alfa can get me thinking about a bew car when most of what is offered today leaves me yawning and reaching for a yachting magazine!

Florian
07-28-10, 01:29 PM
aston martin.
triumph

F

EcSTSatic
07-28-10, 01:41 PM
aston martin.
triumph

F

There's a gorgeous British Racing Green TR6 in my neighborhood I would love to have! :drool:

CIWS
07-28-10, 01:49 PM
What was my 1980 TR7


http://www.ciws.info/tr7.jpg

Bro-Ham
07-28-10, 02:12 PM
rolls-royce.

Jesda
07-28-10, 04:01 PM
Jaguar, but I've never had the daring/patience/means/insanity. I've drooled over them since forever.

The Mazda Miata has been a favorite of mine since I was a child. I remember I was at a Mazda dealer in the early 90s; my parents were shopping for a minivan. My metal jacket button was tapping the sheet metal of a 1990 Miata and the salesman asked me to back away. Somehow, I haven't yet gotten around to owning one. Great cars, all of them.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-28-10, 05:45 PM
Hmmm.... aside from Cadillac....

I really like Buick, and I think from the '50s to the current day, there's a model produced in almost every year that I'd buy. When most other automakers hit rock bottom in the mid '80s, after everything had lost their power, speed and style, Buick stuck it out with the Grand National, a car that was faster than contemporary Corvettes. Buick to me has always been a slightly sportier (aside from the recent 5-6 years), less gaudy, cheaper Cadillac.

Same with Lincoln too. In the early '80s, when they didn't have any power out of their V8's, they atleast looked great and were able to be fun to still cruise around in. When those awful Continentals hit in '88, they still made the cool Town Car and sporty, fun Mark VII LSC. I always really liked Lincoln, but not as much as Cadillac.

Mercedes Benz as well. There's a Mercedes from most eras (aside from the dark days of the early '00s) that I'd be happy to buy.

Oh, and of course, Chevrolet. Their model selection is so wide, it's hard NOT to find a car you like from any certain year.

Cadillac_Fan
07-28-10, 05:52 PM
I know it's a Ford, yet I've long fancied the 1984 Lincoln Continental. (I think this model was even available with the famed Ford Turbo Diesel.)

What intrigued me most was the interior/instrumentation. Very advanced and modern-esque. Plus, the "Continental" script on the passenger side of the dashboard was backlit illuminated in green at night, which was too cool... but not as cool as the electroluminescent crests on the sail panels of the early '90s Fleetwood Sixty Specials!

Bro-Ham
07-28-10, 06:10 PM
I know it's a Ford, yet I've long fancied the 1984 Lincoln Continental. (I think this model was even available with the famed Ford Turbo Diesel.)

What intrigued me most was the interior/instrumentation. Very advanced and modern-esque. Plus, the "Continental" script on the passenger side of the dashboard was backlit illuminated in green at night, which was too cool... but not as cool as the electroluminescent crests on the sail panels of the early '90s Fleetwood Sixty Specials!

Ford diesel in a Lincoln? They used a BMW diesel in the Mark VII in 85 or 86 - someone should check the years to be sure. I don't believe the diesel was available in the Mark VII when it was introduced in '84.

Cadillac_Fan
07-28-10, 06:18 PM
Bro-Ham, this is all I found after a cursory search:

http://forum.love-fords.org/showthread.php?265-1984-Lincoln-Continental-Turbo-Diesel

Bro-Ham
07-28-10, 06:45 PM
the diesel was in the original brochures from Lincoln, I would bet maybe 6 were sold. :)

77CDV
07-28-10, 06:53 PM
RR and Bentley. Elegant, well-tailored designs that just ooze class.

ryannel2003
07-28-10, 07:02 PM
I love Porsche. I've drooled over 911's since I can't tell you when. I love how Porsche has kept the overall design philosophy the same ever since the first generation 911 and how every generation keeps getting better and better. I also like Honda's for there overall simplicity and reliability (most specifically the 90's Honda models like Prelude, Civic, and Accord) and how they are so well built they outlast many cars still on the road today while still offering more fun than any run-of-the-mill Toyota.

Lupin
07-28-10, 07:04 PM
Aside from Cadillacs? Other cadillacs.

Stingroo
07-28-10, 07:14 PM
Chevrolet for me, and that's seriously the only brand I can think of that fits the criteria.

From Corvettes, Chevelles, wagons, Monte Carlo Aerocoupes, Impalas, Camaros, etc. etc.

There are so many cars I LOVE from Chevrolet. I think I'll have at least one in my garage until the day I die. :)

V-Eight
07-28-10, 07:50 PM
^ Agreed.

Destroyer
07-28-10, 07:56 PM
I'd like to get one of the mega hp newer Mercedes AMG cars. I also have a desire to own a BMW just because it's one of the few brands that I have never owned. The newest 7 series appeals to me.

93DevilleUSMC
07-28-10, 08:28 PM
For me, I agree with Chad; I love Buicks. There are decades worth of body styles and models to choose from. Good examples include Riviera, Skylark, Regal, Y job concept, Lucerne, Enclave.

Pontiac has quite a few models that were great performers for their time, but were still easily afforded. It didn't matter whether it was a Le Mans, a GTO, a Gran Prix, a G8, or, most legendary of all of them, a Firebird Trans Am.

GMC: Yeah, I know, they are rebadged Chevrolets, but they stay around because they fill in the pickup segment the same slot that Buick has always filled for cars: affordable vehicles that stay a noticeable cut above GM's volume brand, yet manage to stay just below Cadillacs in luxury. See the Sierra, Colorado, and Yukon.

Chevrolet: If any brand is the All-American brand, Chevrolet has got to be it. No one has made longer-lasting trucks, or, in my opinion, more handsome ones. When the last Toyota Tundra is being hauled to the scrapyard, an old Silverado HD is probably going to be towing it. Models I love: Silverado, C/K series, Colorado, Tahoe.

They've also made some wonderful performance cars, some of which are still legendary, and will always be so. There is the Corvette, America's genuine rival to Europe's supercar giants for 1/3 or less of their price. There is the Camaro, which can be had as a stylish semi-economical personal car, or a genuine track monster. There was the Chevelle SS454, LS6, which represented the height of the muscle car era.

Dodge: I have a soft spot for Dodges. Dad used to run a small roofing business, and the truck he used more than anything else was a Ram 2500 or 3500 with a Cummins turbodeisel. He sold one of the first ones he had, and spoke to the owner years later. The new owner had squeezed 800,000 miles out of the truck before it died, and even then, that was the truck falling apart: the engine was still useable! Dodge also has a legendary performance history, whether you're talking about 440 Six Pak-
and 426 Hemi-equipped Chargers, Coronets, and Challengers, or modern Chargers and Challengers. There is also the Viper, the rawest, most pure supercar ever built in America.

Jeep: GaryD is going to kill me, but I love the Wrangler. It has stayed true to it's warrior heritage since day one, and I think Jeep will always keep it that way. If I have to go through some nasty terrain, I want a Wrangler 4x4. I'll also take a Grand Cherokee.

hueterm
07-28-10, 11:43 PM
There are a lot of Cadillacs that appeal to me, most of them, in fact -- more than I can detail here.

I think that in terms of quantity of vehicles per make, Buick would probably be second, with the number of Riviera models that I love. And then Mercedes third, primarily w/the SEC/CL/S coupes.

Then probably Lincoln for the Marks, then Oldsmobile for the Toronados and Pontiac for the Grand Prixs and Bonnevilles are tied. BMW would probably bring up the rear with the old 2001 generation 7 series and the 8 and old 6 series.

C&C
07-29-10, 04:56 AM
Affordable: Chevrolet
Unobtainable: Ferrari

Jesda
07-29-10, 05:56 AM
Oh, and I'm a classic Nissan fan. I categorize anything before Renault as "classic Nissan".

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-29-10, 07:28 AM
So you're digging on my brother's '96 Sentra, with it's classic Nissan style and hugely powerful 1.6L twin cam 16v four cylinder?

EcSTSatic
07-29-10, 08:15 AM
How can anything be considered "classic" Nissan. They were Datsun first. I loved my old 280Z but all of the Datsuns were rust buckets! I think that is why they changed their name. Like Kentucky Fried Chicken going to KFC to disguise the "fried" connection.

Jesda
07-29-10, 09:40 AM
So you're digging on my brother's '96 Sentra, with it's classic Nissan style and hugely powerful 1.6L twin cam 16v four cylinder?

The only Sentra that matters:
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/412/201/1027600010_large.jpg
The B13 Sentra SE-R. Ridiculously good fun for stupid cheap.


How can anything be considered "classic" Nissan. They were Datsun first. I loved my old 280Z but all of the Datsuns were rust buckets! I think that is why they changed their name. Like Kentucky Fried Chicken going to KFC to disguise the "fried" connection.

I loved the old Zs, but they were determined to disintegrate into a pile of brownish-orange dust. With a car company as recent as Prince/Datsun/Nissan, the line that distinguishes modern from classic is more recent.

My Nissan era had the:

G50 Q45
http://zfclubsport.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/1995_q45.jpg

Z32 300ZXTT
http://www.niot.net/niot_570/nissan_fairlady_300zx_iot.net%20(2).jpg

S13 240SX Convertible
http://www.leitchmotorsports.com/CWhite/images/chadvert1.JPG

And Maxima
http://ugwonalimotors.com/Nissan%20Maxima%20Tan%201994%20frt%20&%20side.JPG


After Renault's much-needed but excessive cost cutting programs, their cars were never the same. The trucks arguably got better though.

They've been pushing bolder French-influenced designs (notice the Megane rear end on the new Leaf), hoping that no one will notice the dip in quality. I've definitely noticed. Except for the Titan and 370Z, I trust a modern day Nissan no more than a Dodge.

gdwriter
07-29-10, 03:55 PM
Jeep: GaryD is going to kill me, but I love the Wrangler. It has stayed true to it's warrior heritage since day one, and I think Jeep will always keep it that way. If I have to go through some nasty terrain, I want a Wrangler 4x4. I'll also take a Grand Cherokee.Nah, I won't kill you. Or even beat you up. I actually respect the Wrangler for it's unmatched capabilities as a 4X4 and for staying so true to the original. However, I would find one to be a nightmare as a daily driver, noisy and uncomfortable and not particularly nimble or responsive on the winding roads I enjoy.

As I like extended road trips, I would probably feel beat up from the rough ride and my ears ringing from the wind noise after several hours in an open Jeep at highway speeds. Rick obviously thinks that's fun; I think it's torture. But he thinks my FWD, automatic Seville is boring, and I think it's great fun to drive as well as an exceptional high-speed touring car.

As for makes other than Cadillac, Chevrolet is a given since I own one and I'll have Betty until the day I die. And there are Corvettes of different generations that I'd like to own: a '65 small block, a '70 and a C6.

I'll add Buick to the list because if I could buy a second classic car, it would be a first-generation Riviera, preferably a '65 Gran Sport with a dual-quad Nailhead.

And if I didn't have to worry about the cost of maintenance and repairs, I'd include BMW. My friends' Z3 that I spent a weekend with is probably the most fun-to-drive car I've driven in nearly 30 years of driving. And I've always liked the 1998-2005 E46 3-Series. The current generation has grown on me.

Destroyer
07-29-10, 05:45 PM
However, I would find one to be a nightmare as a daily driver, noisy and uncomfortable and not particularly nimble or responsive on the winding roads I enjoy.

As I like extended road trips, I would probably feel beat up from the rough ride and my ears ringing from the wind noise after several hours in an open Jeep at highway speeds. Rick obviously thinks that's fun Oh geez. You just opened up a can of worms. :histeric:

hueterm
07-29-10, 05:57 PM
Oh geez. You just opened up a can of worms. :histeric:

If you could get one of those long wheel base last generation 2-door models for anywhere close to cheap, I might consider it as a 7th car to drive the dog around town in, or in case of the apocalypse and we have to escape into the woods. I could leave it outside, uncovered, and not have to widen my driveway. Nor have to deal w/the dog crate.

I might even drive it to and from work, since my drive is 90 seconds. However, I couldn't enjoyably drive it any distance.

Something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-JEEP-WRANGLER-SUV-UNLIMITED-WARRANTY-/120601836346?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c146dfb3a#v4-38

Jesda
07-29-10, 06:28 PM
Wranglers are reasonably easy to drive on the highway. And if the top gets noisy, just open it. Its a convertible after all.

gdwriter
07-29-10, 06:41 PM
Oh geez. You just opened up a can of worms. :histeric:I know. :lildevil:

The gauntlet has been thrown down. We'll see if Rick rises to the challenge, although the more he writes, the less I read. :yawn:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-29-10, 08:00 PM
A friend of mine had a '98 Wrangler Sport back when we were 16-18. Around town, it was OK to drive around in, especially in summer, because it was cool to drive around in a convertible, especially on hot summer nights. But there was no room inside, it rode rough, it was exceptionally noisy on the highway, and it was SLOOW (2.5L I-4 + 5 speed manual). With the stock tires, it wouldn't exceed 80, and with his 32" off road tires, it wouldn't hit more than 70. I guess if that's your thing, then cool, but it's not my cup of tea.

Back then, between taking his Jeep to his cabin 100 miles away and having him pay for gas, or driving my Roadmaster up there and me paying for all my gas, I'd rather drive my car.

Destroyer
07-29-10, 09:58 PM
Well, unlike some of you old farts (lol), I actually would not mind owning a Jeep. I picked a classic convertible instead because I have a thing for those but a Jeep was in contention when I was looking for a "beach car". Around here the Jeep is a "me too" car whereas I haven't seen another '67 Cutlass vert in many years (save for one at a used car lot). The Jeep is definately more youth oriented and not practical for most of us 35+ year olds with families but it is a fun ride and a ride I would consider more as a toy than a daily car.

Jesda
07-29-10, 11:02 PM
Its fun to tool around town in. Parking is easy and the dog enjoys it.

93DevilleUSMC
07-29-10, 11:03 PM
Nah, I won't kill you. Or even beat you up. I actually respect the Wrangler for it's unmatched capabilities as a 4X4 and for staying so true to the original. However, I would find one to be a nightmare as a daily driver, noisy and uncomfortable and not particularly nimble or responsive on the winding roads I enjoy.

As I like extended road trips, I would probably feel beat up from the rough ride and my ears ringing from the wind noise after several hours in an open Jeep at highway speeds. Rick obviously thinks that's fun; I think it's torture. But he thinks my FWD, automatic Seville is boring, and I think it's great fun to drive as well as an exceptional high-speed touring car.

As for makes other than Cadillac, Chevrolet is a given since I own one and I'll have Betty until the day I die. And there are Corvettes of different generations that I'd like to own: a '65 small block, a '70 and a C6.

I'll add Buick to the list because if I could buy a second classic car, it would be a first-generation Riviera, preferably a '65 Gran Sport with a dual-quad Nailhead.

And if I didn't have to worry about the cost of maintenance and repairs, I'd include BMW. My friends' Z3 that I spent a weekend with is probably the most fun-to-drive car I've driven in nearly 30 years of driving. And I've always liked the 1998-2005 E46 3-Series. The current generation has grown on me.

I think it comes down to what each vehicle is made for. If I want to go in the mud and on the rocks, I'm taking a 4x4 Wrangler, hands down. If I'm taking a long road trip, or even just daily driving, I'll take any "boring" FWD Northstar Cadillac any day. I don't know about you, man, but 300HP isn't boring to me.

gdwriter
07-30-10, 12:06 AM
I think it comes down to what each vehicle is made for. If I want to go in the mud and on the rocks, I'm taking a 4x4 Wrangler, hands down. If I'm taking a long road trip, or even just daily driving, I'll take any "boring" FWD Northstar Cadillac any day. I don't know about you, man, but 300HP isn't boring to me.Exactly. I have zero interest in going into mud and rocks. My idea of roughing it is a Motel 6.

My Seville has 275 hp, and I enjoy every single one of them. Since a regular dose of WOT is recommended for the Northstar, I follow that advice. There is something extremely exhilarating about feeling the push back in your seat from the thrust of a high-performance engine doing what it was designed to do.

I would definitely enjoy a convertible, whether it were a '64 Cadillac or a Miata. But definitely not a Jeep. At least not for me.

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 08:23 AM
BMW, Lincoln, MB, Isuzu, Jeep, Oldsmobile... I'm drawn to their vehicles.

93DevilleUSMC
07-30-10, 08:41 AM
Exactly. I have zero interest in going into mud and rocks. My idea of roughing it is a Motel 6.

My Seville has 275 hp, and I enjoy every single one of them. Since a regular dose of WOT is recommended for the Northstar, I follow that advice. There is something extremely exhilarating about feeling the push back in your seat from the thrust of a high-performance engine doing what it was designed to do.

I would definitely enjoy a convertible, whether it were a '64 Cadillac or a Miata. But definitely not a Jeep. At least not for me.

LOL you would hate my idea of good training, then. If I haven't gotten greasy or dirty, I haven't been working or playing hard enough. But you are right, the Northstar may be one of the most outright fun engines ever put in a Cadillac. I have never driven a Northstar Cadillac and not had a grin on my face at one point or the other. It didn't matter if it was a DTS or an ETC.

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 10:05 AM
I know. :lildevil:

The gauntlet has been thrown down. We'll see if Rick rises to the challenge, although the more he writes, the less I read. :yawn:

Perhaps if we ever attend the same meet, you can take my Jeep on an extended (on/off?) road test and see for yourself just how horrible of a vehicle it is to drive :)

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 10:24 AM
Exactly. I have zero interest in going into mud and rocks. My idea of roughing it is a Motel 6.

My Seville has 275 hp, and I enjoy every single one of them. Since a regular dose of WOT is recommended for the Northstar, I follow that advice. There is something extremely exhilarating about feeling the push back in your seat from the thrust of a high-performance engine doing what it was designed to do.

I would definitely enjoy a convertible, whether it were a '64 Cadillac or a Miata. But definitely not a Jeep. At least not for me.

I agree, it's just too bad Cadillac didn't make a proper RWD performance car with manual transmission to take advantage of the Northstar in the 90's.

I like to be "involved" with my performance vehicles. If it is on road or off, it dosen't matter. I want to see/hear/feel what the vehicle is doing.

To me, a performance engine in a FWD fullsize four-door with an automatic just looses so much of what is there to experience.

I never said I wouldn't want one as a daily driver, or a dedicated highway car. My Town Car was great as what it did - what it was made to do. But what it was made to do was no longer what I wanted in a vehicle, so I sold it.

In an on-road performance car, to me, there is so much more to experience then throwing a shifter in drive and turning the steering wheel. I want a real clutch and manual transmission, I don't want to be isolated from the road, I want to be connected.... and I like to take it a step further with the wind in my hair.

As for power, I had to ask my how how much do I really need? I've gotten near-$400 speeding tickets in both BMW's - 170hp I6 and 130hp I4, each will easily hit triple digits on the interstate and keep going, each can merge in traffic quicker than most daily drivers and keep up with traffic. For me it wasn't all about power, but maximizing the entire driving experience.

Part of the entire driving experience is turning. Something I used to not even think twice about. A well handling car with enough power to not feel "slow" (which is also a realitive term) to me is alot more fun then a high powered muscle car that dosen't handle well, or a powerful sedan with an automatic.

I just got tired of the "isolated" luxobarges, I like vehicles that are involving, but must of all, fun, be it on road or off. The Jeep is a vehicle that excels off-road, but is also, for me, a fine daily driver and does very well on road. The BMW maximizes any attributes a "fun" road car should have, to me.

Are either vehicle ideal for a family to pack up and visit the grand parents in or to enjoy a totally quiet and isolated highway drive in? No, but that's not what I bought them for anyway.

When I had my Town Car, which had tinted windows and A/C, I just didn't like being confined to within my car, so I'd open all 4 windows on highway trips because I liked the air blowing. That took away alot of what the car had to offer - quiet. But it is what I liked.

For what it's worth, my Jeep with the hard doors and factory sail-cloth soft top has less wind noise then the BMW with the top up. Most the time the tops are down tho.

It is alot more fun to drive a slow car fast, then to drive a fast car slow :)

Jesda
07-30-10, 10:48 AM
2004 CTS-Vs are down to $18k now.

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 11:19 AM
Financing stinks. So does being in debt on a depreciating asset. When the Jeep gets paid off, that "payment" is going to be added to my mortgage each month.

gdwriter
07-30-10, 04:59 PM
Gee, another long-ass dissertation from Rick. :yawn: Quelle surprise. And as usual, full of crap.


I agree, it's just too bad Cadillac didn't make a proper RWD performance car with manual transmission to take advantage of the Northstar in the 90's.I would prefer RWD, but I much prefer the styling inside and out of my Seville to the 05+ STS. I'm perfectly happy with my car's handling abilities, so it's an acceptable trade-off. I'm sure I'll really enjoy my RWD CTS in the future, but I've very happy with what I have right now.


I like to be "involved" with my performance vehicles. If it is on road or off, it dosen't matter. I want to see/hear/feel what the vehicle is doing.

To me, a performance engine in a FWD fullsize four-door with an automatic just looses so much of what is there to experience.Get a freakin' clue. We are not talking about an '82 DeVille with a 4100. Nor a '79 or '93 DeVille like you once owned (although I managed to find my '91 DeVille plenty entertaining). From 1992 on, the Seville, and especially the STS, were Cadillac's sport sedans. These are not rolling living rooms.

I am plenty involved in the driving experience when I want to be, and I don't need a bloody clutch pedal to see/hear/feel what my car is doing. I enjoy a stick on occasion, and in some cars like LS1Mike's Trans Am, a Miata, or my friend's Z3 I consider it mandatory. I simply don't want one as a daily driver.

I took the back road route to work this morning, which has some nice sweeping curves, along with a 1.5-mile stretch where you make six sharp turns, most of them ~90. There was a car that had come charging up behind me right before this stretch, so I took the curves faster than usual, brake hard going in, accelerate halfway though and power out with the Northstar doing what it does so well. And guess what? When I plant my right foot, it downshifts and pulls hard.

It was a lot of fun even involving to use your word and the Seville handled it with aplomb. I'll wager that with your Jeep's high center of gravity, you couldn't take those turns anywhere near as fast as I did without tipping over. And if I kept my foot down, I would easily blow you away on the straights. Now that's fun.


Part of the entire driving experience is turning. Something I used to not even think twice about. A well handling car with enough power to not feel "slow" (which is also a realitive term) to me is alot more fun then a high powered muscle car that dosen't handle well, or a powerful sedan with an automatic.Maybe you're assuming an '01 Seville has pinkie-twirling power steering with no feel like I suspect your '79 DeVille had. Newsflash: it doesn't. One reason I can take turns at speed and love some of the cloverleaf freeway on ramps we have around here is because I can feel what the front wheels are doing and make a smooth, precise turn. Hell, even Betty's power steering gives good feel, and I have fun taking her around turns, and I can even feel the difference RWD makes in when you can start accelerating out of a turn.


I just got tired of the "isolated" luxobarges, I like vehicles that are involving, but must of all, fun, be it on road or off.Here again, you show your ignorance. Despite its size, my Seville is hardly an isolated luxobarge. The ride is very comfortable, but it's reasonably firm and not at all floaty. And surprise, surprise, when the weather's nice, I enjoy driving with all the windows down, even at highway speeds. Did it going home one night last week, and it was quite refreshing.

I've made it very clear my Seville can be very involving and fun to drive. I've pointed it out before with examples and you still don't get it. Or refuse to see it. I at least acknowledge that your Jeep is fun for you; for me and the kind of driving I like to do, it would not be. I used to car pool on occasion with a friend who had a Wrangler. Rush hour traffic on Phoenix freeways, even in nice weather, was not particularly pleasant. I don't need to drive one to know that the high center of gravity that makes it so capable off road would limit it on my favorite winding back roads.

And my Seville does something your Jeep can't. When I've had an exhausting day at work, or I have an hour-and-a-half drive home from the airport after a long, tiring trip, I can effortlessly eat up the miles in complete comfort. In an open Jeep, I'd be miserable and arrive home even more exhausted. Maybe you wouldn't, but I would.

And for crying out loud, it's spelled "though," not "tho." This is not texting. It's three freakin' letters. Use them. :rant2:

gdwriter
07-30-10, 05:00 PM
Damn, my retort is longer than Rick's post that I'm retorting to. :rolleyes:

Oh, well, there was plenty to retort to.

orconn
07-30-10, 05:13 PM
I agree the 4th and 5th geneation Sevilles handle well, but I really wounldn't classify them as sports sedans. They are nicely tuned personal luxury cars well suited to American driving conditions, but if I really had to go from L.A. to Palmdale using the Angeles Crest Highway (for many years Road and Track's "twisties" road test road) in a hurry I would take my old Alfa 164 any day!

gdwriter
07-30-10, 05:21 PM
I think I could enjoy the Angeles Crest Highway in just about any car. Well maybe not a Mark IV. Since I don't have a fleet of cars at my disposal (and my fleet would include a sports car), I want something that's well balanced: effortless or entertaining depending on my mood and the situation, powerful, but still good on gas, comfortable, but still capable on winding roads. And it has to be good looking. So for me, the Seville fits the bill perfectly.

Whether it's seen as a true sport sedan — either by the motoring press or drivers — Cadillac certainly marketed the STS as a luxury sport sedan.

gary88
07-30-10, 05:29 PM
Have to disagree with you on the Seville steering GaryD, it's somewhat overboosted and light IMO which decreases road feel and straight-line stability.

gdwriter
07-30-10, 06:03 PM
BMW still has the market cornered on steering feel; I will say that. Maybe I'm just used to mine.

I haven't had any issue with straight-line stability. That car tracks like a freight train on the highway, one of the reasons I enjoy it so much on road trips. Didn't your Seville have some issues with the tires and shimmy? Mine had a slight shimmy at 70 MPH when I first got it, but as soon as I replaced the cheap-ass tires with Yokohamas, the problem went away.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-30-10, 06:45 PM
The 98-04 Seville is pretty sporty. Not like a 3 Series, but a great combination of luxury/sport. I thought you liked these Sevilles Rick, weren't you looking at buying one a few years back?

ryannel2003
07-30-10, 09:43 PM
My Seville had cheap tires and worn struts and still handles the corners with aplomb. For a 4,000lb, FWD vehicle the car handles damn good. It's no BMW, but the Seville is one of the best driving Cadillac's I have personally ever driven... and I've driven at least every model of Cadillac (with exception of Cimarron) of the 25 years.

The Seville STS was a great vehicle, and it still is. I love mine so much, I might just replace it with a low mileage '03 STS in a few years.

hueterm
07-30-10, 09:54 PM
Driving my ETC right after driving one of my wagons is still such a rush. There are much better handling cars than my ETC, but it meets my needs.

csbuckn
07-30-10, 10:49 PM
I wouldnt mind a lifted 4 door wrangler. But BMW has always been in my mind as interesting, always seemed like a drivers car.

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 11:08 PM
The 98-04 Seville is pretty sporty. Not like a 3 Series, but a great combination of luxury/sport. I thought you liked these Sevilles Rick, weren't you looking at buying one a few years back?

Oh I still very much like the '98-'03 Seville, and the '92-'97 Seville, and the '92+ Eldo. They are among my favorite Cadillac's.

Unlike Gary with his black or white statements on my view on the cars, or my Jeep, I am stating that the FWD Seville just dosen't offer what I am looking for in a "fun" car. You can put as much power as you want in it and as many fancy suspension gizmos as you see fit, it is still a large FWD luxury car, and worst of all, only avalible with an automatic.

If I wanted a quiet, comforable techy daily driver, I would buy one. If I wanted a smooth and quiet ride for highway trips, I'd buy one. In fact they are still a car I am considering in the future.

But to me, a FWD Seville has about the same thrill to me as a 7-seires, which atleast is driving the correct wheels and could be had with a manual, tho not in this country (later years). Then again, do you really buy a 7-series for the thrill of the drive?

But Cadillac didn't market the Seville STS towards the 7-series, it was towards the 5-series, a solid "sport sedan" But they made two big mistakes, the engine is powering the wrong set of wheels, but more importantly, the serious lack of fun that putting a shifter into "drive" entails.

To put it another way, the same way Gary feels about my Jeep being a horrible vehicle on his fun twisty roads is the same way I feel about an automatic luxury car on fun twisty roads.

I'll go as far as to say *I* would personally take my Jeep over a Seville if I wanted to have fun on twisty roads. Would it accelerate faster and handle better? Hell no. But to me being as open to the enviornment around me as I can and shifting my own gears makes all the difference.

Example, my Town Car with the Ride Control Package (and after I completely went thru and rebuilt/upgraded the suspension) handled very well for such a car.... it handled like no Town Car should It would take turns at 2-3x the caution speed signs and I pushed it hard. Could it hold it's own for it's category of cars? Yes.

But it was also in that process that I realized how boring and uninvolving it was. With the windows up, it was quiet, with the windows down, I could hear the V8 slightly. I'd look at the digital speedo and see 85 or triple digits, yet it didn't mean much, I would try to make it more fun by pressing O/D off or shifting down to 2nd, but even then, it shifts when the computer wants, not when I want.

Then I took my 120hp 3300lbs 4cyl Isuzu Amigo w/ 2" lift and 32" all-terrains out on the same road. Running flat out the Isuzu was struggling to reach 70, The handling was considerably not as good as the Lincoln and I was taking turns slower.... but still, with that 5spd manual transmission, it was so much fun to keep the (low rpm, torqey truck) engine in it's powerband to maximize all avalible power, to downshift going into turns, get on the throttle leaving shifts and upshifting etc....

Is this a comparison using two vehicles that are horrible when it comes to handling? You bet. But it explains my point about how I feel. No matter how much power or improvements to the suspension I could throw at the Town Car, it would still offer the same experience to me, likewise the little Isuzu truck simply thrilled me to take it to the limits and just have fun. Best of all? I was having fun in the Isuzu all while having hardly any chance of getting a speeding ticket.

I've taken the Jeep on the same roads, and I get the same thrill. Tires squeeling, pushing it hard.... if grandma in a Camry could keep up with me, I don't care, I'm having a blast.

*edit* A video of what I mean, pushing the Jeep on the road, on my favorite local driving road. It was fun.

tGWL3_uDcNw

hueterm
07-30-10, 11:32 PM
I mean, to each his own, and I'm glad you like and are as passionate about your vehicles as you are.....but you live in Georgia.....don't you get hot and dirty anytime you go anywhere in a Jeep w/o roof, doors, or windows?

I realize, I'm about 180 degrees the other way, but I'll start something and let it cool off in the driveway before I go anywhere.....

Night Wolf
07-30-10, 11:52 PM
Gee, another long-ass dissertation from Rick. :yawn: Quelle surprise. And as usual, full of opinion.

Fixed it for ya :)


Get a freakin' clue. We are not talking about an '82 DeVille with a 4100. Nor a '79 or '93 DeVille like you once owned (although I managed to find my '91 DeVille plenty entertaining). From 1992 on, the Seville, and especially the STS, were Cadillac's sport sedans. These are not rolling living rooms.

I am plenty involved in the driving experience when I want to be, and I don't need a bloody clutch pedal to see/hear/feel what my car is doing. I enjoy a stick on occasion, and in some cars — like LS1Mike's Trans Am, a Miata, or my friend's Z3 — I consider it mandatory. I simply don't want one as a daily driver.

For some people, a Toyota Camry offers them a perfect "luxury experience", Does it for you? Or do you set the bar higher and enjoy Cadillac's premium models?

Likewise, your automatic Seville may be plenty involved for you, but for others they are not.

Unless in rare (on/off road performance) occassions, without a bloody clutch, a vehicle is not involving. That dosen't mean it's bad, when I was in the market for my Town Car I specifically wanted a car that isolated the outside world from me when I shut the door, and that was a perfect car for such a task.


I took the back road route to work this morning, which has some nice sweeping curves, along with a 1.5-mile stretch where you make six sharp turns, most of them ~90. There was a car that had come charging up behind me right before this stretch, so I took the curves faster than usual, brake hard going in, accelerate halfway though and power out with the Northstar doing what it does so well. And guess what? When I plant my right foot, it downshifts and pulls hard.

It's good to know that your automatic transmission works properly.


It was a lot of fun — even involving to use your word — and the Seville handled it with aplomb. I'll wager that with your Jeep's high center of gravity, you couldn't take those turns anywhere near as fast as I did without tipping over.


Damn, what gave it away? The Indy500-tuned solid front axle? The lift kit? the mud-terrain tires?

To me, speed dosen't mean fun. I am not saying you car is bad at handling, nor am I saying my Jeep is good at handling.


And if I kept my foot down, I would easily blow you away on the straights. Now that's fun.


And if we were on rutted dirt roads I would easily blow you away on the straights. Now that's fun. Seriously, are you going as far as comparing the on-road handling and acceleration of a "sport sedan" to a modified off-road vehicle? :suspect:


Maybe you're assuming an '01 Seville has pinkie-twirling power steering with no feel like I suspect your '79 DeVille had. Newsflash: it doesn't. One reason I can take turns at speed and love some of the cloverleaf freeway on ramps we have around here is because I can feel what the front wheels are doing and make a smooth, precise turn. Hell, even Betty's power steering gives good feel, and I have fun taking her around turns, and I can even feel the difference RWD makes in when you can start accelerating out of a turn.

When did my '79 DeVille come into this? There is more to steering then how easy or hard it is to turn the steering wheel. I can feel what the front wheels are doing in my Jeep, that dosen't make it handle any better or less then what it does.


Here again, you show your ignorance. Despite its size, my Seville is hardly an isolated luxobarge. The ride is very comfortable, but it's reasonably firm and not at all floaty.

Uh dude? Read my post again. I did not say, nor imply your Seville was an isolated luxobarge. In fact I said "I got tired of...." Which would imply I did not enjoy the vehicles I owned anymore. Don't worry, not everything I type is about you or your cars.


And surprise, surprise, when the weather's nice, I enjoy driving with all the windows down, even at highway speeds. Did it going home one night last week, and it was quite refreshing

Damn, and without never ending ear bleeding and exhaustion?


I've made it very clear my Seville can be very involving and fun to drive. I've pointed it out before — with examples — and you still don't get it. Or refuse to see it. I at least acknowledge that your Jeep is fun for you; for me and the kind of driving I like to do, it would not be. I used to car pool on occasion with a friend who had a Wrangler. Rush hour traffic on Phoenix freeways, even in nice weather, was not particularly pleasant. I don't need to drive one to know that the high center of gravity that makes it so capable off road would limit it on my favorite winding back roads.


You sound like I am trying to push you into a Jeep, that's not the case. You also don't have to continue to tell me that your Seville can in fact be very involving for you to drive - I get it from your continued, lengthy reports back to me on how fast you can take turns and how your automatic downshifts.

I do acknowledge that your car is very involving for you. You seem to be inable to acknowledge the reasoning why such a car is not very involving to me.


And my Seville does something your Jeep can't.

My dad can beat up your dad!, My bike is cooler then yours!.... oh, you were being serious...

Do you really want to compile a list of what each vehicle can do that the other can't? Really? Without going into detail, I'll simply say that some of the most beautiful places in the world around us are not accessible by paved road.


When I've had an exhausting day at work, or I have an hour-and-a-half drive home from the airport after a long, tiring trip, I can effortlessly eat up the miles in complete comfort. In an open Jeep, I'd be miserable and arrive home even more exhausted. Maybe you wouldn't, but I would.


Again, that is you and your opinion. I have yet to feel worn out or uncomfortable from driving my Jeep any time or distance. Including 12hr legs to/from New York and Key West.

I look at the given situation (exhausting day at work) in the opposite way. As I walk out to my doorless Jeep in the parking lot, any stress from the day seems to disappear and as I drive back home in my fun, open vehicle, I go into "relax" mode.


And for crying out loud, it's spelled "though," not "tho." This is not texting. It's three freakin' letters. Use them.


4realz dogg

http://franz.keferboeck.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/word.jpg

gary88
07-31-10, 12:03 AM
tGWL3_uDcNw

Good music choice :thumbsup:

orconn
07-31-10, 12:04 AM
While I disagree that a fun car can only have a stick shift and be rear wheel drive, I would say that when it comes to small displacement and lighter weight cars a stick shift is the only way to have fun. Around town and on fairly tight twisties it is not the amount of horsepower or length of the wheel base or the number of driver aids that make a car fun, but rather the agility of the car to perform to a higher degree of it's ability in conditions that don't allow for the car's muscle and sophistication to be taken to its' full advantage.

An example of this was when, back in the mid-sixties I was tooling up the Angeles Crest Highway in my 225 hp 2800 lb Jaguar XK150, one evening when a car behind was flashing to get by. It was a new, at the time, Lotus Elan roadster, a car that had maybe 90 hp and weighed perhaps 2100 lbs. As soon as the road permitted I pull to the right to give the Lotus room to pass. And then I tried to stay with him as we climbed our sinuous way up to Red Box. To make a story short I couldn't catch him. On the longer straightways I could cathup with him. but as soon we went into the switch backs no way could I keep up with the much more agile Lotus Elan.

This is what I mean by light agile cars being more fun to drive in towns and tight twisty roads. The Miata is a great example of a fun car to drive around town, as is an Alfa Romeo spider, or an earlier smaller, lighter VW GTI. Non of these cars would be worth a damn with an automatic transmission. And non of them can compare with large big engined touring machines when you have many miles to cover and the roads are straight or the turns well banked. Incidentally, that is one of the reasons American and various European cars evolved diferently.

Back in the 1960's and '70's if someone told you they would rather travel in or drive a Mercedes 280S sedan overr a Cadillac from New York to L.A. .... they were either highly delusional, on Mercedes P.R. payroll, or had no experience with American driving. Such great drivers as Sterling Moss and Phil Hill preferred automatic transmissions in their road cars (read GT cars in Europe and luxury American sedans in the U.S.). The preference for stick shift on big heavy sports sedans and GT cars is more an affectation of those that have not really experienced those cars in their true element .... especially with all the shifting aids currently available in high performance cars today.

Night Wolf
07-31-10, 08:59 AM
I mean, to each his own, and I'm glad you like and are as passionate about your vehicles as you are.....but you live in Georgia.....don't you get hot and dirty anytime you go anywhere in a Jeep w/o roof, doors, or windows?

I realize, I'm about 180 degrees the other way, but I'll start something and let it cool off in the driveway before I go anywhere.....

I've really gotten used to the heat as I've been out of NY (and in FL/GA) since '05. Going into work today it was 103 with a heat index of 115 (and high humidity)

A Jeep is a vehicle that either fits your lifestyle or it dosen't. It fits mine, well.

I work aircraft maintenace in a hanger and often work outside. In the warmer months the hanger doors are open, so with the exception of shade and covered from rain, the outside becomes inside. The hangers are heated in the winter, but the only A/C is in the break room and offices. So I do not work in an A/C enviornment. When I leave work in the Summer, my shirt is full of sweat.

So when I get into my Jeep, I don't need A/C (unless sitting in traffic, which I'll run with no doors etc...) as there is plenty of air movement around me to stay cool.

As for getting dirty when driving, what do you mean? Do you get dirty by driving with your windows down?

For the Summer, my Jeep stays in this configuration:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Jeep/6-27-10%20summer%20pics/SummerJeep010.jpg

The duster cover ("bed" cover) keeps everything behind the front seats dry. The safari top (from windsheild to rear of Jeep) keeps me dry, and most of all, the sun from beating down on me, and the inside of the Jeep all day. If I am planning on a long road trip, I'll take the safari top off.

When it rains, I usually just tumble the drivers seat forward, that keeps the seat dry from rain as well as water run off from the top, which just pours into the tub and then exits via the removed drainplugs on the floorboards.

With me in the Jeep are also a pair of full soft doors and the wind jammer (part that goes behind the seats w/ rear window):

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Jeep/6-27-10%20summer%20pics/SummerJeep005.jpg

That configuration makes my Jeep rather enclosed, stay dry, and it'll heat or cool the cabin to beyond comfortable levels either way.

I can mix and match too, if it's raining hard and I am in town/city driving, I'll just throw the doors on and leave the wind jammer off, and no water comes in. If I am on the interstate and it is raining hard (as in down pour) I will put the wind jammer up (prevents water from spraying the inside of windsheild) but leave the doors off. If I maintain 55+mph, I stay dry in rainstorms that people put their hazzards on and pull off the road.

It's definitly not for everyone. If you like the outdoors and enjoy being exposed to your enviornment, then there is a good chance you'll like it. Otherwise, probably not.

Personally, for me, all the above and more makes the Jeep an incredibly "fun" and "involving" vehicle to me, no matter how slow or bad at handling it is compared to other vehicles.

I sold the hardtop, I also have full steel doors w/ roll up windows and the factory soft top w/ tinted windows, I'll put those on for the "Winter" here, but otherwise I enjoy the way it is now.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-31-10, 09:20 AM
Interesting. Jeep definitely makes vehicles for enthusiasts. I doubt anybody has ever bought a Wrangler "just because". They're usually sought out because that's exactly what the buyer wants, and there's really nothing else like it on the market.

I tell ya, I was over at the local Maserati/Bentley dealer the other night, and what do I see parked up front, so everyone driving by on the highway could see it? One of the cleanest, unmodified Grand Wagoneers I've ever seen in my life. It was gorgeous. That, to me, is the coolest Jeep ever made because it's got the 4x4 capabilities Jeeps are known for, with the luxury of a Cadillac, with the size, status and space most other SUV's didn't have back then, and it's a gorgeous throwback design, dating back to 1963. This is without a doubt, one of my all time favorite SUV's. Too bad they were underpowered and always got awful mileage.

http://www.twincitiesluxuryauto.com/detail-1989-jeep-wagoneer-grand-used-5832014.html

Jesda
07-31-10, 09:54 AM
Its too bad the Land Rover Defender isnt sold here.

csbuckn
07-31-10, 12:08 PM
So Nightwolf, have you ever worried about the short wheel base and tipping? Any close calls that you could blame on the design of the wrangler? Thats another reason I like the four door wrangler. Just asking cause one will probably be in my near future, I just love all the options and assesories. Plus the "no doors, no top" thing is nice.

hueterm
07-31-10, 12:37 PM
I just assumed that with no windows/roof, that you'd get hit w/a lot of dust while you're driving.

I guess it's what you're used to -- it's hotter than hell here, and from what you said even hotter there.....I would *u** out the first time I drove it.

Stingroo
07-31-10, 12:40 PM
You would what? lol

hueterm
07-31-10, 12:42 PM
:kittyball:

Night Wolf
07-31-10, 01:34 PM
So Nightwolf, have you ever worried about the short wheel base and tipping? Any close calls that you could blame on the design of the wrangler? Thats another reason I like the four door wrangler. Just asking cause one will probably be in my near future, I just love all the options and assesories. Plus the "no doors, no top" thing is nice.

The wheelbase dosen't have much to do with tipping on road or off, off-road a Jeep is far more likey to tip side to side then it will front to back.

Despite what it may appear, it actually takes ALOT to tip a Jeep, I'm talking about some serious of-camber (sideways sloped) terrain, obsticals and alot of use of the throttle. This is all off-road.

On road? I don't feel it is tippy at all. Not as stable as the BMW or a normal car, but not much worse then an SUV.

Sometimes I drive mine rather aggressive on the road, including taking turns pretty quick. The Jeep feels stable and predictible. It has factory front and rear sway bars and the aftermarket shocks on mine are on the firm side, so body roll is surprisingly not bad. I can push it harder then what most would expect from a Jeep. I'm not saying it is made for handling, I'm just saying that they don't have the "hit a curb and roll" properties that some make them out to have.


I just assumed that with no windows/roof, that you'd get hit w/a lot of dust while you're driving.

I guess it's what you're used to -- it's hotter than hell here, and from what you said even hotter there.....I would *u** out the first time I drove it.

I suppose if you were in an extremley dusty enviornment, yeah. But normal day to day road driving? No. When off-road if there is alot of dirt/dust and it is very dry so everhything is getting stirred up from the other vehicles, yeah there is dust all over, and it covers the inside of the Jeep too. It's no biggie tho, within miniutes I can have the dash wiped down and the rest hosed out.

The heat, IMO is the worst when the sun is beating on you, and you are not moving. By having the safari top on the Jeep, I am covered and in shade, without it, it gets very hot and I get sunburned, yes. Also when moving even 25+mph there is enough air movement to keep you cool enough inside the Jeep. Ever go boating?

hueterm
07-31-10, 01:41 PM
Not if I can help it ;-)

The extent of my outdoor activities are barbecuing, skeet/trap shooting, golf, and taking the dog for a trail hike.

I didn't catch that you kept the roof on it -- that would make it better than a convertible.

gdwriter
07-31-10, 03:27 PM
Damn, looks like my reply got hosed during Sal's conversion. Oh, well. Whenever Rick blathers on about that frackin' Jeep, all I hear is this (http://www.gdwriter.com/teacher.wav).

And while Rick accuses me of being black and white about cars, then he goes and does the same damn thing:


Unless in rare (on/off road performance) occassions, without a bloody clutch, a vehicle is not involving.I recognize my car isn't your cup of tea. But the know-it-all tone of your posts implies that I don't know what driver involvement or a good handling car is because I don't think your stupid Jeep is as great as you think it is.

Sheesh, are you as much an insufferable bore on the Jeep forum as you are here?

Kev
07-31-10, 04:02 PM
The gauntlet has been thrown down.... Gary starts it off with a challenge! . ... 27 words to start ....


I agree ..... and Rick comes back with a 524 word response!


Gee, another long-ass dissertation from Rick..... OH! Gary trumps Rick with a 690 word rebuttal!


Fixed it for ya :) ... a 550 word effort from Rick, a slight increase from his first .......


Damn, looks like my reply got hosed during Sal's conversion. Oh, well.
Rick ... you ... insufferable bore ...OH!! What an upset! Gary is stumped by technical difficulties!!! only 107 words ..... Oh, that's a shame. He was gaining so nicely too!!

..Awe .... :nono:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-31-10, 04:14 PM
This is fun.


Aaaaaaaand we're off!

gdwriter
07-31-10, 05:29 PM
:histeric: :histeric: :histeric:

I love the play-by-play word count!

No need for me to say any more. I've made my point. :hammer: I actually felt hypocritical for my 690-word post since I think Rick is a long-winded bore.

He can go bouncing down the road shifting gears with the wind in his hair (something I can't enjoy no matter how open the car) while I zip up and down the lovely back roads around here enjoying the speed, comfort and handling ability of my big, boring automatic FWD sedan. :cool:

Night Wolf
07-31-10, 11:31 PM
U also like to mention and continue 2 bring up, or make a comment about Jeeps, my Jeep, or my preference in vehicles much more often then I do, yet my Jeep is such a bore to u - sounds hypocritical along with ur 690-word count reply.

Night Wolf
07-31-10, 11:59 PM
:histeric: :histeric: :histeric:

I love the play-by-play word count!

No need for me to say any more. I've made my point. :hammer: I actually felt hypocritical for my 690-word post since I think Rick is a long-winded bore.

He can go bouncing down the road shifting gears with the wind in his hair (something I can't enjoy no matter how open the car) while I zip up and down the lovely back roads around here enjoying the speed, comfort and handling ability of my big, boring automatic FWD sedan. :cool:

U contradict urself:


And the weather is now perfect for top-down motoring.


from here:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forums-lounge-member-introductions/142719-weekend-wheels-bmw-z3-roadster.html

Which you seemed to really enjoy:


After driving top with the top down 99% of the time

There was much praise about it too such as:


Driving enjoyment is tops with me. The Z3 was a blast; I loved the engine/gearbox combination as well as its handling.

Which BTW:


while I zip up and down the lovely back roads around here enjoying the speed, comfort and handling ability of my big, boring automatic FWD sedan.

Why pick my off-road vehicle to compare on your lovely back roads? Ur big, boring automatic FWD sedan would be looking at the back of my e30 on your favorite driving roads

:yup::yup::yup::yup::yup::yup::yup::yup::yup:


No need for me to say any more. I've made my point.

But you also make the point to make the last post in these little debates that you start....

Anyway, it was kool to go back and see what I was saying about the e30 then, and compare it to now. Damn, if there was one thing in the automotive world I made the right choice in, it was getting that car.

gdwriter
08-01-10, 12:14 AM
http://www.campussqueeze.com/userfiles/Douchebag(1).jpg

#1: You drive a yellow Jeep and go on and on about how great it is and how everybody else's car sucks in comparison.

gdwriter
08-01-10, 12:17 AM
Ur big, boring automatic FWD sedan would be looking at the back of my e30 on your favorite driving roads.Not while it's sitting up on blocks in your driveway, and maybe not even if after you put it back together again, if you ever get around to doing that.

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 12:41 AM
LOL, Gary now your stretching to increase your poast count. I called you out on your own contridictions, multiple times and all you can come up with is posting a picture that in turn is calling me a douchebag?

Another post ticked in where you bring up my Jeep. For something so boring and stupid, that you despise so much you sure seem to devote many posts to mentioning it. I don't bring up automatic transmissions, Impalas and old Impalas with automatic transmissions every chance I get.

Well, I suppose when you have to go as far as making broad, made up statements about my opinions on others' vehicles. You must have missed my reply where I said I like your generation Seville and it is still a car I would consider in the future. Oh yes, you must pride yourself in teaching selective reading :suspect:.

c'mon Gary, did I upset you by calling you out? You seemed to have lost your smooth proper replies a bit there, I sense frustration.

Maybe you just really miss the open air fun of that Z3 roadster? That would cheer ya up!

As for the e30, do you plan on coming to the Southeast anytime soon? She'll be completed by the next major Cadillac meet :) You pick the fun twisty road buddy :burn:

PS. I thought you made your point and you were not going to say any more.... three posts of yours ago...

gdwriter
08-01-10, 01:12 AM
I very much enjoyed my friends' Z3. And yes, I drove it mostly with the top down because the weather was great. I have very little hair left, so I don't get that lovely sensation of the wind in my hair.

I'm not contradicting myself. As much as I enjoyed that convertible Z3, it's not a practical daily driver for me. Would I take it for a weekend again? You bet.

Broad, made up statements about others' cars? Please. Just go back and read your own long-ass threads, you putz. And if I were in the Southeast, why would I waste my time on you, your e30 or your ****ing Jeep?

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 01:50 AM
I very much enjoyed my friends' Z3. And yes, I drove it mostly with the top down because the weather was great. I have very little hair left, so I don't get that lovely sensation of the wind in my hair.

I'm not contradicting myself. As much as I enjoyed that convertible Z3, it's not a practical daily driver for me. Would I take it for a weekend again? You bet.

Broad, made up statements about others' cars? Please. Just go back and read your own long-ass threads, you putz. And if I were in the Southeast, why would I waste my time on you, your e30 or your ****ing Jeep?

Why do you waste so much time in typing up replies to me, my e30 and my ****ing Jeep?

I must say, first it was putting down my specific vehicles, but now you are starting to personally call me names - it's just an interweb car forum, don't let it get to you.

Try to shorten up your posts too, they are longer then mine and it's such a bore to read so much negative that you type up.

gdwriter
08-01-10, 01:57 AM
Why do you waste so much time in typing up replies to me, my e30 and my ****ing Jeep?They don't take that long.

And I think you're full of it. Somebody has to point it out. Might as well be me. :nyanya:

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 02:07 AM
They don't take that long.

And I think you're full of it. Somebody has to point it out. Might as well be me. :nyanya:

i can picture u jammin out to this in ur old impala

GGXzlRoNtHU

Jesda
08-01-10, 02:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwj0gLriTnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwj0gLriTnk

gdwriter
08-01-10, 02:24 AM
i can picture u jammin out to this in ur old impalaI've got better things to do with 3:48. Like back my Impala out of the garage and back in a dozen or so times.

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 02:29 AM
I've got better things to do with 3:48. Like back my Impala out of the garage and back in a dozen or so times.



http://www.sogoodblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/easy-mac-cups-bacon.jpg

Mark0101
08-01-10, 02:33 AM
Night Wolf, Don't stoop down to his level by making personal attacks. Let it go...

gdwriter
08-01-10, 02:33 AM
Keep it up, douchebag. :want: It's not name calling if it's true. And your last post just proves it.

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 02:48 AM
No need for me to say any more. I've made my point.

That was back in post #68. What happened?

So much hostility, where is the love?

WpYeekQkAdc

Gary likes to dish it out but dosen't seem to be able to take it back.

Just before this post I decided to click on the Rick Roll thread... surprise surprise Gary strikes yet again, mentioning his favorite vehicle evar, for someone that dosen't like something so much, it sure seems to be on his mind alot...

gdwriter
08-01-10, 03:00 AM
You threw out a bunch of crap that should not go unchallenged. Otherwise, I would have been happy to let it end there.

I can take as good as I get. But you crossed a line at post #80.

77CDV
08-01-10, 03:01 AM
Both you boys play nice or everyone's graham crackers will get taken away! :rollingpin:

gdwriter
08-01-10, 03:03 AM
You can have the graham crackers. Just don't take my wine. :alchi:

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 03:06 AM
Oh really? But you making personal attacks well before post #80 is ok? Or where you feel the need to drag your opinion about me and my possesions into nearly every reply you manage to make, that is perfectly fine?

You said it yourself:


And I think you're full of it. Somebody has to point it out. Might as well be me.

What about the reverse?

You take what I say and turn it around to make it what you want to believe I say. Maybe you should be the one to go back and read the posts over.

You take my personal opinion, which I clearly state, that it is my opinion, and think that I am talking about facts, or telling you what your opinion should be.

77CDV
08-01-10, 03:06 AM
Rick, Gary, really, both of you chill. Please? :sadeyes:

gdwriter
08-01-10, 03:11 AM
Sure. I'm getting bored anyway. :yawn:

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 03:16 AM
It was fun :) e30 is calling...

Jesda
08-01-10, 03:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTxZEp8VNE

gdwriter
08-01-10, 02:20 PM
Lest anybody think I'm overly sensitive, Rick changed the picture on post #80. Which I appreciate. And his new picture is actually funny.

Kev
08-01-10, 02:28 PM
EP0sHfgkbSg

77CDV
08-01-10, 05:23 PM
Poor Rick Astley! Thanks to some webnerds with too much time on their hands, he'll forevermore be remembered as an internet joke punchline.

Jesda
08-01-10, 06:00 PM
Better than being forgotten!

Kev
08-01-10, 06:06 PM
No doubt! He has more notoriety now than he would have with his musical body of work alone.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-01-10, 06:13 PM
EP0sHfgkbSg

"This is not Barack Obama" LOL

Skiller.
08-01-10, 06:16 PM
Audi.

Night Wolf
08-01-10, 07:35 PM
Lest anybody think I'm overly sensitive, Rick changed the picture on post #80. Which I appreciate. And his new picture is actually funny.

I figured you would, hence the change. How about you stop antagonizing like you first did in this thread, in the Rick Roll thread and the "It's better to drive a slow car fast...." thread, otherwise the win wagon may have to make a return...

Stingroo
08-01-10, 07:43 PM
Win wagon reporting for duty. ;)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-01-10, 09:07 PM
The win van is parked outside my window.

gdwriter
08-01-10, 09:52 PM
...otherwise the win wagon may have to make a return...Oh, nice. A veiled threat. I didn't know olive branches had thorns.

hueterm
08-01-10, 09:56 PM
What's a win wagon?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-01-10, 10:00 PM
Unless it's some sort of reference to the picture I missed yesterday, I don't see how that's a threat.

hueterm
08-01-10, 10:05 PM
Dup post...

hueterm
08-01-10, 10:06 PM
Win wagon reporting for duty. ;)

You knew that was coming.............. ;-)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
08-01-10, 10:07 PM
What's a win wagon?

1975-76 Buick Electra Estate Wagon.

hueterm
08-01-10, 10:09 PM
W/rally wheels, and the motorized tailgate.

gdwriter
08-01-10, 10:22 PM
Unless it's some sort of reference to the picture I missed yesterday, I don't see how that's a threat.It is.

77CDV
08-01-10, 10:54 PM
Instead of a win wagon, perhaps a ruler would be more apt. :bigroll:

gdwriter
08-01-10, 11:09 PM
Instead of a win wagon, perhaps a ruler would be more apt. :bigroll::histeric: :histeric: :histeric:

77CDV
08-01-10, 11:13 PM
I meant it for both of you, you know. :D

Destroyer
08-01-10, 11:55 PM
I've really gotten used to the heat as I've been out of NY (and in FL/GA) since '05. Going into work today it was 103 with a heat index of 115 (and high humidity)

A Jeep is a vehicle that either fits your lifestyle or it dosen't. It fits mine, well.

I work aircraft maintenace in a hanger and often work outside. In the warmer months the hanger doors are open, so with the exception of shade and covered from rain, the outside becomes inside. The hangers are heated in the winter, but the only A/C is in the break room and offices. So I do not work in an A/C enviornment. When I leave work in the Summer, my shirt is full of sweat.

So when I get into my Jeep, I don't need A/C (unless sitting in traffic, which I'll run with no doors etc...) as there is plenty of air movement around me to stay cool.

As for getting dirty when driving, what do you mean? Do you get dirty by driving with your windows down?

For the Summer, my Jeep stays in this configuration:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Jeep/6-27-10%20summer%20pics/SummerJeep010.jpg

The duster cover ("bed" cover) keeps everything behind the front seats dry. The safari top (from windsheild to rear of Jeep) keeps me dry, and most of all, the sun from beating down on me, and the inside of the Jeep all day. If I am planning on a long road trip, I'll take the safari top off.

When it rains, I usually just tumble the drivers seat forward, that keeps the seat dry from rain as well as water run off from the top, which just pours into the tub and then exits via the removed drainplugs on the floorboards.

With me in the Jeep are also a pair of full soft doors and the wind jammer (part that goes behind the seats w/ rear window):

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Jeep/6-27-10%20summer%20pics/SummerJeep005.jpg

That configuration makes my Jeep rather enclosed, stay dry, and it'll heat or cool the cabin to beyond comfortable levels either way.

I can mix and match too, if it's raining hard and I am in town/city driving, I'll just throw the doors on and leave the wind jammer off, and no water comes in. If I am on the interstate and it is raining hard (as in down pour) I will put the wind jammer up (prevents water from spraying the inside of windsheild) but leave the doors off. If I maintain 55+mph, I stay dry in rainstorms that people put their hazzards on and pull off the road.

It's definitly not for everyone. If you like the outdoors and enjoy being exposed to your enviornment, then there is a good chance you'll like it. Otherwise, probably not.

Personally, for me, all the above and more makes the Jeep an incredibly "fun" and "involving" vehicle to me, no matter how slow or bad at handling it is compared to other vehicles.

I sold the hardtop, I also have full steel doors w/ roll up windows and the factory soft top w/ tinted windows, I'll put those on for the "Winter" here, but otherwise I enjoy the way it is now.I'll be honest. I always thought yellow Jeeps were vehicles for the gays. Yours looks really slick in yellow, love the black wheels and white lettered tires. Nice touch!:thumbsup:

Stingroo
08-02-10, 12:03 AM
You knew that was coming.............. ;-)

Well DUH! :thumbsup:

gdwriter
08-02-10, 12:07 AM
I meant it for both of you, you know. :DI do. I was laughing on my own behalf. :rofl:

Destroyer
08-02-10, 12:24 AM
I do. I was laughing on my own behalf. :rofl:Rick and I have had similar problems in the past. I am on his "ignore" list and he is still on mine (I have tried to remove that but couldn't). That was then and this is now. I now feel there is some merit to his driving impressions that I can relate too but there is another "holier than thou" stance that I cannot. Bottom line is that I feel both of you have an arguable defense but neither can ever win. Why not just call it a draw?

gdwriter
08-02-10, 12:29 AM
I had reached that conclusion already. I thought his photo-chop of me and my car was over the line, and he was at least willing to take it down, which I gave him kudos for. Then he threatened to bring it back if I said anything tacky about him and/or his Jeep again. Which kind of defeated the whole purpose of his original olive branch. So whatever.

BTW, Nick did you get my PM about the wood door panel trim on that STS you're parting out?

Destroyer
08-02-10, 12:35 AM
I thought his photo-chop of me and my car was over the lineI missed that one, lol

Night Wolf
08-02-10, 12:40 AM
I'll be honest. I always thought yellow Jeeps were vehicles for the gays. Yours looks really slick in yellow, love the black wheels and white lettered tires. Nice touch!:thumbsup:

Thanks :)

Night Wolf
08-02-10, 12:45 AM
I had reached that conclusion already. I thought his photo-chop of me and my car was over the line, and he was at least willing to take it down, which I gave him kudos for. Then he threatened to bring it back if I said anything tacky about him and/or his Jeep again. Which kind of defeated the whole purpose of his original olive branch. So whatever.

BTW, Nick did you get my PM about the wood door panel trim on that STS you're parting out?

You did say in this thread that the gauntlet was thrown down and if I would respond...

This is just one of the many threads where you instigate to get a response.

77CDV
08-02-10, 12:54 AM
Rick, he's walking away. Let it go.

gdwriter
08-02-10, 12:55 AM
Knock yourself out, Rick.

Jesda
08-02-10, 02:41 PM
Time for makeup sex.

gdwriter
08-02-10, 03:24 PM
Time for makeup sex.Ewwwww :thumbdown:

hueterm
08-02-10, 03:27 PM
I missed that one, lol

Hello -- so did I -- that needs to make a comeback, even if by email! ;-)

77CDV
08-02-10, 03:30 PM
Quote from Jesda: Time for makeup sex.

There's an unwanted visual.....

sdoom
04-22-11, 02:03 PM
Lexus cars are at least alike the cadillac standard, though they are japanese. I own a SC430 , which is not really a recer-car but a good cruiser and also has a V8 engine with quite good mpg

Stingroo
04-22-11, 02:18 PM
What kind of fuel economy do you see with your SC430?