: 2012



haterinc
07-27-10, 10:13 PM
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-camaro-z28.html


Will they please give us some teaser info about some 2012 changes? A mild make over? Some bumped up HP? A forged lower end option with the zr1 blower? A ceramic brake package... Somethin?!!! I mean the M5 is coming and they're slapping the engine from a $65k car in a Camaro? Why? So they can compete with the Buttstangs or their own big ticket Z06 for half the price?

GM needs to get busy for Caddy and not lose momentum in the Super Sedan world, especially with the release of the V coupe.

mannyz
07-28-10, 12:42 AM
I'm pretty upset that everyone and their brother is going to be driving around with an LSA once the z28 comes out. I guess that's the nature of the market. By then I should be out of warranty and Mod happy anyways.

baabootoo
07-28-10, 12:44 AM
Darn, I thought that this thread was about the movie; 2012-2!!!!!

cts-vv
07-28-10, 05:15 AM
wait till CTS-V 3 hits the market in 2013 or 2014 ... it will kick M5 ass ... by the way the New M5 will lose High top end race against the old one ...

mugatu22
07-28-10, 05:38 AM
wait till CTS-V 3 hits the market in 2013 or 2014 ... it will kick M5 ass ... by the way the New M5 will lose High top end race against the old one ...

Apparently you have a crystal ball & can see the future; mind if I use it for futures trading, stocks and World Series betting?

snzuloz
07-28-10, 06:15 AM
Interesting article in GM High Tech Performance, the Z28 doesn't appear to be happening right away, looks like they might change the chassis design first, so maybe no LSA'S anywhere else yet...

CIWS
07-28-10, 08:23 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forums-lounge-member-introductions/206236-looks-like-z28-coming-after-all.html

Caderac
07-28-10, 09:23 AM
I'm pretty upset that everyone and their brother is going to be driving around with an LSA once the z28 comes out. I guess that's the nature of the market. By then I should be out of warranty and Mod happy anyways.
Those are my sentiments. Sort of a loss of the exclusivity the V2 had.
Next they will put a de-tuned version of the LSA in a Buick or Chebby P/U trk.

I'm sure it is short-sighted on my part, but it just seems like a dilution of the unique presence that GM was trying to create with Cadillac and their "V Series".

musclesbmf
07-28-10, 09:50 AM
Are you guys kidding? All the LSX motors are used in many different cars. Next the ZR1 guys will cry that the cadillac has a similar motor, or other corvettes share their motor with the camaro and former GTO and G8.
And as for the M5 motor, it's used in the X5M, M6 and X6M. No exclusivity there either.

Mark

cts-vv
07-28-10, 10:03 AM
mugatu22 yes i have this ball ... do you want to rented for a day or something

V&Vette
07-28-10, 10:19 AM
Apparently you have a crystal ball & can see the future; mind if I use it for futures trading, stocks and World Series betting?


I can help you with the WS betting...Yankees in 5.

Domsz06
07-28-10, 10:45 AM
if they put the lsa into a camaro it will cost more then the vette and be more then the z06 I mean it's gonna be a 60-70k car. Not everyone can afford that. and all that's not counting the dealer mark up. there are not tones of c6z's, so why would there be tons of z28's? also that in a camaro would make it faster then the vettes and z06's, just don't buy it, unless they also put it into the z06, but then it takes away from the zr1. I think it's just a ploy/gm advertizing leak to make people all excited.

CIWS
07-28-10, 11:46 AM
if they put the lsa into a camaro it will cost more then the vette and be more then the z06 I mean it's gonna be a 60-70k car. Not everyone can afford that. and all that's not counting the dealer mark up. there are not tones of c6z's, so why would there be tons of z28's? also that in a camaro would make it faster then the vettes and z06's, just don't buy it, unless they also put it into the z06, but then it takes away from the zr1. I think it's just a ploy/gm advertizing leak to make people all excited.

It's market competitor would be the Shelby Mustang, so one should expect a price point to compete with that (Starts at 49K, nice equiped 55K)

JimmyH
07-28-10, 01:10 PM
No one has confirmed the Z28 will carry the LSA. All it says it 6.2L SC. That could be the LSA, LS9, some derivative, or an entirely new engine. It's rare, but GM has managed to keep secrets before. Or that tag could be a lie. I find it convenient that they taped the engine specs on the dash and left the door open when they know spy photographers circle like vultures.

They havent even confirmed the Z28 will make production. That could be an SS with a body kit for all we know.

CIWS
07-28-10, 01:28 PM
They havent even confirmed the Z28 will make production. That could be an SS with a body kit for all we know.


"In a recent visit with Motor Trend, Karl Stracke, GMs Vice President of Global Vehicle Engineering, let slip that Chevrolet will launch the long-rumored Camaro Z28 for the 2012 model year. The Z28 model was originally scheduled to be in Chevrolet showrooms by now, but was delayed by GMs 2009 bankruptcy."


Now that could be an LS9, but that really wouldn't make sense to keep the unit's cost in the same market as the Shelby. When the Z28 was announced before the bankruptcy, GM said then it would have the LSA motor in it. Since they haven't designed any new motors since then, and most of the development was already done around the LSA, logic would dictate it will still be the LSA. We'll almost certainly know by NAIAS in Jan if it's a 2012 car.

JimmyH
07-28-10, 03:00 PM
I am really surprised they are going forward with it. This does not seem to be the climate for releasing new mega-performance cars. The got away with the ZR-1 since it was developed pre-bankrupcy.

I have a feeling that these supercharged V8 cars are going to have to be extremely limited production in order to survive the coming CAFE standard. If Ford succeeds with their Ecoboost engines, GM is going to be forced to go the same route.

Domsz06
07-28-10, 03:55 PM
It's market competitor would be the Shelby Mustang, so one should expect a price point to compete with that (Starts at 49K, nice equiped 55K)
i don't see them offering a SC car for 55.

that is in vette territory.

V&Vette
07-28-10, 04:09 PM
Exactly right, GM will not underscore their flagship car...the Corvette.

Domsz06
07-28-10, 04:21 PM
Exactly right, GM will not underscore their flagship car...the Corvette.
there is no way they are going to put an LSA in a camaro. Unless the quit making the corvette, and it's been around longer then the camaro.

I think it's just GM getting some free hype and advertising.

CIWS
07-29-10, 07:57 AM
I am really surprised they are going forward with it. This does not seem to be the climate for releasing new mega-performance cars. The got away with the ZR-1 since it was developed pre-bankrupcy.

The Z28 was supposed to have been almost fully developed before the bankruptcy as well, but not enough that they could put it into production. I'm assuming they've decided to go forward and finish since a GM official has now said it's a go.

CIWS
07-29-10, 08:10 AM
i don't see them offering a SC car for 55.

that is in vette territory.


Exactly right, GM will not underscore their flagship car...the Corvette.


A Z28 will not outperform the ZR1, therefore the Corvette is safe at the top and under no threat. The standard Corvette still has a major weight advantage over the CTS-V and any possible Z28 to make up for flywheel HP differences. Obviously GM wasn't worried about bringing a 556 HP S/C'd car to market with the Corvette or the CTS-V, and now specifically the Coupe wouldn't be here.


there is no way they are going to put an LSA in a camaro. Unless the quit making the corvette, and it's been around longer then the camaro.

I think it's just GM getting some free hype and advertising.


If that was their thinking then they wouldn't have spent the time and money developing the Z28. Remember this project was in development and given the green light before the bankruptcy and only stopped because of it. Not because someone suddenly woke up and said this will threaten our Corvette.


All these types of comments are the same ones people were making back in late 07 and early 08 when everyone was still guessing what the 09 CTS-V would have for power, and then it was "they'll never build one with more power than the Z06 because they won't effect their flagship Corvette sales" Lots of folks were thinking they'd fit it with the LS7 to keep it on par HP wise. But as time showed they were wrong.

Domsz06
07-29-10, 08:41 AM
A Z28 will not outperform the ZR1, therefore the Corvette is safe at the top and under no threat. The standard Corvette still has a major weight advantage over the CTS-V and any possible Z28 to make up for flywheel HP differences. Obviously GM wasn't worried about bringing a 556 HP S/C'd car to market with the Corvette or the CTS-V, and now specifically the Coupe wouldn't be here.




If that was their thinking then they wouldn't have spent the time and money developing the Z28. Remember this project was in development and given the green light before the bankruptcy and only stopped because of it. Not because someone suddenly woke up and said this will threaten our Corvette.


All these types of comments are the same ones people were making back in late 07 and early 08 when everyone was still guessing what the 09 CTS-V would have for power, and then it was "they'll never build one with more power than the Z06 because they won't effect their flagship Corvette sales" Lots of folks were thinking they'd fit it with the LS7 to keep it on par HP wise. But as time showed they were wrong.
well a 556 z28 weighs in at 3800 pounds right? or 3750 according to wikipedia. if you use the same weight as a 2010 camaro


vetteweb.com says the vette weighs in at 3208. that's 600 pounds. Isn't the "rule of thumb" 10 hp for 100 pounds? that means the z28 is faster then the vette. I just don't buy it or see them doing it.

Yes the zr1 is the "king" but not everyone can afford it. The corvette is still the flag ship and the fastest set of cars out there even the c6 is faster then the ss, due to the weight since they now have the same engine. Just don't buy GM putting a top camaro that can beat the lowest vette.

The v is not faster to the z06 due to the weight.

Not arguing it was given the green light, arguing that they will put the LSA into it.

Also saying GM seems to be producing a lot of 60k or higher cars, would a camaro really sell at 60k? Also with a factory super charger now they are coming into the vette world, because those guys can afford the 60k, and now they get a supercharger from the factory? So now the vette's stop selling.

Guess we will see, but I still don't buy it. z28 yes, LSA in it, no. I mean that shot was rigged. Remember all the fake shots of the blue devil, the z06, the vette, etc... Has GM ever really put a white card on the dash in plain view? come on.

Umrswimr
07-29-10, 09:11 AM
Honestly, I hope it's true. We coul use some of the mainstream tuners doing development work on the LSA. Right now there's only a handfull of tuners and a lot of conflicting information. Dropping the LSA into a Camaro will encourage the tuner world to develop cool toys for this beast.

snzuloz
07-29-10, 10:48 AM
Wouldn't be the first time that G.M. has made a car faster than the vette, look at the Buick G.N., made there flagship look like it was standing still.:stirpot: Like i said before, apparantly they are looking at another chassis (lighter) to compete with the Mustang before it goes ahead.

CIWS
07-29-10, 01:32 PM
well a 556 z28 weighs in at 3800 pounds right? or 3750 according to wikipedia. if you use the same weight as a 2010 camaro.

vetteweb.com says the vette weighs in at 3208. that's 600 pounds. Isn't the "rule of thumb" 10 hp for 100 pounds? that means the z28 is faster then the vette. I just don't buy it or see them doing it.

What we don't know is how much the car will actually weigh once produced, not someone's guess. Since no official numbers have been released such as BHP, xmission, rear end gearing, etc one really can't say even on paper that a Z28 would be faster than a standard vette. No one knows at this point except possibly the engineers assigned to the project.




Just don't buy GM putting a top camaro that can beat the lowest vette.

Not arguing it was given the green light, arguing that they will put the LSA into it.

Well before the bankruptcy GM said the Z28 would have the LSA, so you may not wish to believe them, but that was their statement. :noidea:


Also saying GM seems to be producing a lot of 60k or higher cars, would a camaro really sell at 60k? Also with a factory super charger now they are coming into the vette world, because those guys can afford the 60k, and now they get a supercharger from the factory? So now the vette's stop selling.

Does a Mustang sell at 60K ? To some, they are willing to pay it. So I'm guessing there will be some buyers out there willing to pay the same for a hopped up Camaro, because again remember the target demographic here is the Shelby Mustang, not the Corvette.
Just because a Z28 might be something faster than a Corvette, do you think current and potential owners will suddenly drop the Vette just because GM produces a Camaro that's something faster for the same money ? That's really kind of a shallow opinion of all Vette owners isn't it. They buy that car simply because of it's HP / speed. What about interior makeup, handling, or exterior styling differences, the name itself ? I could be wrong, but I think a Vette is more of a chick magnet than a Camaro, even a hopped up one. :)



Guess we will see, but I still don't buy it. z28 yes, LSA in it, no. I mean that shot was rigged. Remember all the fake shots of the blue devil, the z06, the vette, etc... Has GM ever really put a white card on the dash in plain view? come on.


They've already said the Z28 will have the LSA engine (although nothing about HP numbers yet) So I don't understand any great secret the "spy photographer" is discovering there. 6.2 ltr S/C'd engine = LSA already a known factor.

haterinc
07-29-10, 03:04 PM
LoL dance puppets dance

JimmyH
07-29-10, 03:08 PM
I am disappointed they havent used the LS7 in more applications. That engine is a star. 7 litres and 7000rpm. NA ftw.

wfo
07-29-10, 03:54 PM
I hope with all these regs and gas dilemma(s) we even get the same HP. A bump in HP would be awesome but highly unlikely.

If they can assure the same robust HP numbers as the current models (556hp), then a body redesign would be great. Working to better differentiate visually the V from the rest of the CTS fleet is a must. Offering up performance options like 20/21" forged wheels, Gm approved lowering kit, etc. Hey even the Camaro gets these things.

Hogg
07-29-10, 03:55 PM
Wouldn't be the first time that G.M. has made a car faster than the vette, look at the Buick G.N., made there flagship look like it was standing still.:stirpot: Like i said before, apparantly they are looking at another chassis (lighter) to compete with the Mustang before it goes ahead.
I agree, there was the G.N. and the G.N.X., the 1989 Turbo Trans Am (rated at 250 hp but dynoed over 300bhp), the 1991-1995 GMC Syclone, and the 3rd Gen Firehawk.
All these cars out accelerated the same year Y-body, some even including the 90-95 ZR 1.

Speaking of exclusivity, or the lack thereof, we must remember that the LSA is also being used as the big brute of all the GM built marine engines. The LSA is being used in marine applications that were formerly filled by the GEN VII 8.1 bigblock.
In marine trim, the LSA is rated at 530hp@5400rpm 545 lb/ft@4000rpm, the actual power rating depends on installed equipement, which does vary greatly in the marine world.

http://www.gm.com/experience/technology/gmpowertrain/engines/specialized/marine/REV_3_2011_6200_LSA_Marine.pdf


Depending on which way GM wants to spin the Z28 program, they could easily use the LSA engine, then add or subtract some power, and call the engine by an RPO other than LSA.
Similar to the 6.2L 400hp@5900rpm/410 lb/ft@4300rpm L99 engine which is used in the automatic Camaro and the 6.2L 426hp@5900rpm/420lb/ft torque@4600rpm LS3 which is used in the manual transmission Camaros.
Essentially the L99 and LS3 are the same engine, save for the L99 having VVT(variable valve timing) and AFM(Active Fuel Management) while the LS3 not.
Cam timing is also slightly different between both engines, with the LS3 having an extra 400rpm of redline at 6600rpm over the L99(6200rpm) due to the extra mass that the AFM imparts in the L99 valvetrain.


LSA block 6.2L $2295
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/12623968_LSA_6_2_Block_p/12623968.htm

LS9 block $3295
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/12621983_LS9_6_2_Block_p/
12621983.htm

LSA engine 6.2L $14,345
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19211708_LSA_6_2_Supercharged_Engine_p/19211708.htm

LS9 6.2L engine $21,345 (GM list is $30,000)
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19201990_LS9_ZR1_Engine_p/19201990.htm

LS7 7.0L engine $19,378
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19211710_LS7_Production_Engine_p/19211710.htm

LS3 6.2L engine $6,401
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19244097_LS3_6_2L_Crate_Engine_p/19244097.htm

LS3 6.2L engine with GM Hot cam for 480hp $6,742
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19213229_LS376_480HP_LS3_Engine_p/19213229.htm

LS3 6.2L engine with cam and carb intake for 515hp $7,395
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19171225_LS376_515HP_LS3_Engine_p/19171225.htm

L92 6.2L engine $6,334
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19201991_L92_6_2L_Engine_p/19201991.htm

GM's GEN IV 6.2 is used in many different applications. Very adaptable.

peace
Hog

Domsz06
07-29-10, 04:10 PM
CIWS,

Guess I missed where they said what engine would be in the z28. Either way I'll believe it when it comes out. Until then guess your right.

CIWS
07-29-10, 05:08 PM
CIWS,

Guess I missed where they said what engine would be in the z28. Either way I'll believe it when it comes out. Until then guess your right.

One of many mentions in articles over the past 2 years or so.

http://jalopnik.com/5299626/are-you-the-now+dead-556-hp-camaro-z28

We won't know which one of us is "right" until some folks get that car for testing (plus can talk about it) and we see what actually gets put out :)

V&Vette
07-29-10, 09:20 PM
A Z28 will not outperform the ZR1, therefore the Corvette is safe at the top and under no threat. The standard Corvette still has a major weight advantage over the CTS-V and any possible Z28 to make up for flywheel HP differences. Obviously GM wasn't worried about bringing a 556 HP S/C'd car to market with the Corvette or the CTS-V, and now specifically the Coupe wouldn't be here.




If that was their thinking then they wouldn't have spent the time and money developing the Z28. Remember this project was in development and given the green light before the bankruptcy and only stopped because of it. Not because someone suddenly woke up and said this will threaten our Corvette.


All these types of comments are the same ones people were making back in late 07 and early 08 when everyone was still guessing what the 09 CTS-V would have for power, and then it was "they'll never build one with more power than the Z06 because they won't effect their flagship Corvette sales" Lots of folks were thinking they'd fit it with the LS7 to keep it on par HP wise. But as time showed they were wrong.

Don't know who's right in this argument. I'll stick with the fact that I think the Z-28 will not underscore the Vette in this instance. Different time periods were discussed in other posts, not the present. The CTS-V being quicker than a base Vette or Z51 (otherwise known as GS now) is apples and oranges compared to a Z-28 doing so. A CTS-V is a 70k car. The Z-28 will not be close to that pricetag. Sorry to say but theirs a big difference in a 50k car besting a Vette or a 70k car. At least with the V, they can say "different class of car". With the Z-28, the same cannot be said. Now who knows but.....maybe at the time where all details of the Z-28 are fully revealed, the new Corvette will either be following shortly thereafter or already have been "leaked" out. If GM takes that approach and reveals details about the C7 then it doesn't matter because the C6 will be considered the outgoing model. Sort of like when the LS1 Camaro came out as well as the C5.

Umrswimr
07-30-10, 08:13 AM
Don't know who's right in this argument. I'll stick with the fact that I think the Z-28 will not underscore the Vette in this instance. Different time periods were discussed in other posts, not the present. The CTS-V being quicker than a base Vette or Z51 (otherwise known as GS now) is apples and oranges compared to a Z-28 doing so. A CTS-V is a 70k car. The Z-28 will not be close to that pricetag. Sorry to say but theirs a big difference in a 50k car besting a Vette or a 70k car. At least with the V, they can say "different class of car". With the Z-28, the same cannot be said. Now who knows but.....maybe at the time where all details of the Z-28 are fully revealed, the new Corvette will either be following shortly thereafter or already have been "leaked" out. If GM takes that approach and reveals details about the C7 then it doesn't matter because the C6 will be considered the outgoing model. Sort of like when the LS1 Camaro came out as well as the C5.
The Camaro and the Vette are indeed a different class of car.

JimmyH
07-30-10, 03:32 PM
Myself, I would be plenty happy with a 420hp SS. Plenty fast for me. I don't know how you can even begin to approach the limits of a 560hp Camaro.

V&Vette
07-30-10, 09:18 PM
Myself, I would be plenty happy with a 420hp SS. Plenty fast for me. I don't know how you can even begin to approach the limits of a 560hp Camaro.

Imagine it being priced at 45k though. I'd buy one, hell, why not at that price.

mugatu22
07-30-10, 09:38 PM
The 420HP would be even better if they made a light version of the Camaro...a "Superleggera" Camaro, if you will. I'd buy one of those. I loved my old Z28 ('95) and it was a tank too. You'd think they may be able to keep the price lower by removing sound deadening material, lighter seats, etc. That would be a fun muscle car.

JimmyH
08-02-10, 04:57 PM
The Camaro6 is going to be built on a smaller, lighter platform. I think pretty much every car on the market right now, the next generation of all of them will be lighter. They have to be if the manufacturers want to comply with 35CAFE.

BeagleBrains
08-03-10, 11:36 AM
The future of performance paired with economy concerns:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2010/1008_corvette_to_get_all_new_small_block/index.html

JimmyH
08-03-10, 01:40 PM
They are testing it against the GT500:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98470

Looney100
08-03-10, 08:54 PM
The Camaro6 is going to be built on a smaller, lighter platform. I think pretty much every car on the market right now, the next generation of all of them will be lighter. They have to be if the manufacturers want to comply with 35CAFE.

According to Motor Trend, both the 2014 CTS and Camaro will be on GM's Alpha Platform.

Vrocks
08-04-10, 09:51 AM
wait till CTS-V 3 hits the market in 2013 or 2014 ... it will kick M5 ass ... by the way the New M5 will lose High top end race against the old one ...

I don't think the new M5 will lose to the old one in any area. It's all specualtion for now but I've heard the new TT V8 is good for 575HP.

Vrocks
08-04-10, 09:58 AM
...Now who knows but.....maybe at the time where all details of the Z-28 are fully revealed, the new Corvette will either be following shortly thereafter or already have been "leaked" out. If GM takes that approach and reveals details about the C7 then it doesn't matter because the C6 will be considered the outgoing model. Sort of like when the LS1 Camaro came out as well as the C5.
Exactly. The next gen small block starts production in 2012 and the Z28 is comming out next year. The LSA will be in the 2nd gen V and Z28 until the alpha platform Camaro and ATS hit the road. Then the ATS-V is supposed to get the 5th gen V8, and I'm sure a version of the Camaro will too.

The ATS is supposed to debut at the Vegas show in November, and I'm hoping for a "concept/preview" of the next gen CTS in Detroit.