: Throttle body questions



Cheatin' Chad
07-26-10, 05:36 AM
Hello all,

I have been looking for two weeks now for information on the throttle body for the LC3. I have come up with ONE photograph of it attached to the supercharger and not much else. I was hoping you gentleman could provide me with some information.

GM Part number
What other vehicles/engines its used on
The diameter of the opening
Has anyone bored it out? How far til you break through?
Aftermarket TBs ( Im willing to bet "no" on this)
Photographs

I'm considering purchasing a STS-V and would like to know exactly what this vehicle is capable of before I do so. PD blowers usually see the largest gains on their inlet side and if that cannot be addressed at reasonable cost I am not going to be able to meet the goals I have in mind. If I knew what kind of room I was working with I could fabricate an adaptor to mount another type of TB on the unit. I just dont know how things are in this vehicle.

If you care to know a little about me: I have been racing/modifying vehicles for about 20 years. I owned a small performance shop for about a year founf out turning a hobby into a business wasn't for me and went back to electrical work. I like to consider myself a pretty hardcore tech guy.Currently I am very interested in modifying a northstar.However, if I feel I cannot meet my goals with a Northstar powered vehicle I'll just stick to the LSx engines I'm most familiar with. My goal for the STS-V is to have a comfortable,attractve family vehicle that will run mid 11's. I know this is possible I just don't want to cut too much into the race car budget to get it done.


I do most of my own welding,fabrication,machining,wiring and tuning (I was one of the first people to purchase HPtuners). I have tuned quite a few vehicles over the years. Mostly GM trucks,Fbodies and Corvettes. I currently own a 2000 Camaro that is being built for standing Mile and 1/4mile racing.

Thank you very much for any help you can provide!

Chad

550HP STSV
07-26-10, 08:29 AM
Here is some info:

Throttle Valve Assm, 4.4L
GM List Price $294
Ident #: 12567376
OEM #s: 2172294,12567376

Fits these cars:

# Model Year Description
1 CADXLR 04-06 Throttle Vlve Assm
2 CADXLR 07-09 Throttle Vlve Assm, 4.4L
3 CADSRX 04-06 Throttle Vlve Assm, 4.6L
4 CADSTS 05-06 Throttle Vlve Assm, 4.6L
5 CADSTS 06-09 Throttle Vlve Assm, 4.4L

The rest of the info, pictures, etc im sure will be provided by coach or russell or PGA. In return, I ask that you share your gains and mods with us all. Please note that the current V2 version of the CTS-V has saw HUGE gains using a ls7 ported throttlebody located here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadillacforums.com%2Fforums%2 Fcadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009%2F201222-ported-ls7-throttle-body-kicks-ss-2.html&ei=cH9NTKa4MMOqlAeqx5D4DQ&usg=AFQjCNEJYN7nVsn8RZDlt5NiySupUHCnlw&sig2=u5VU9OyCln1Y4EJk_jFq6A

I had always wondered if we could see any similiar gains by changing/porting the throttle body, but never got much further than wondering.

Cheatin' Chad
07-26-10, 07:06 PM
Thanks very much for the information!

The Throttle Body is a place where power is likely being left on the table. I've seen 03/04 Cobras pick up 30+hp by swapping to a larger ford truck throttle body.

I can't say what kind of gains are possible here but it's worth looking into. I'm going to see if my local wrecking yard has one of these at a decent price. If they do I'll do some work on it and see how much it'll open up. If it won't open up enough maybe an adapter can be made and a different GM TB with aftermarket support can be used. The STS-V is using an E67 pcm I believe so that shouldnt impossible.

PGA2B
07-26-10, 09:34 PM
Here is one on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-04-09-Cadillac-srx-sts-xlr-Throttle-control-actuator-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2eaecd78e9QQitemZ20050 1197033QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

Psycho-albanian
07-26-10, 10:44 PM
I'd be down to swap the throttle body for a ls7 throttle body if it made more power:bouncy:

Cheatin' Chad
07-27-10, 12:57 AM
Fantastic! Thanks for the link. I purchased the TB.

When I get the piece I'll take some measurements and see what can be done. I'll have to decide if I wanna destroy this piece to see what the limits are OR bore, then port/polish and see what the gains will be.. I don't have an STS-V to test on so I'll likely wind up just boring it until I break through or sectioning the piece.


BTW: BMR claims the rear end components they manufacture for the 1st gen CTSV will work on the STS-V. GForce claims they can do axles and stubs for the STS as well. The STS-V will be much nicer to its rear end due to the auto trans. Adding parts to prevent wheel hop and strengthening things is always a good idea IMO

Cheatin' Chad
07-27-10, 01:07 AM
That eBay listing shows all of these vehicles as using the same TB:

2009 CADILLAC STS V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2009 CADILLAC XLR V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2008 CADILLAC STS V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2008 CADILLAC XLR V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2007 CADILLAC STS V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2007 CADILLAC XLR V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2006 CADILLAC SRX V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2006 CADILLAC STS V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2006 CADILLAC STS V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2006 CADILLAC XLR V V8 4.4L 4371cc 267cid GAS FI S Engine VIN = D
2006 CADILLAC XLR V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2005 CADILLAC SRX V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2005 CADILLAC STS V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2005 CADILLAC XLR V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2004 CADILLAC SRX V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A
2004 CADILLAC XLR V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = A

PGA2B
07-27-10, 09:20 AM
That is very possible. You can call Luke at Lindsey Cadillac to verify fittment if you need to.

coach123
07-27-10, 01:42 PM
I called Luke at Lindsay today but he didn't have any information for the throttle body. If you go ahead and purchase a throttle body or our cars see if we can interchange them with the 90mm or 102mm throttle bodies for the LSx engines.

PGA2B
07-27-10, 05:01 PM
With the proper adapter plate it we could put anything in there. The issue is going to be the "Drive by wire" and if the LSx has the same harness or if we can hardwire the new TB to our plug.

Cheatin' Chad
07-27-10, 07:46 PM
The STS-V uses the e67 PCM so with some changes to the harness (if that) and tuning drive by wire can be handled.


I am not sure if there is enough room for the larger LSx style TBs. Can anyone give me an idea of how much room is back there? When I get this TB I will see how it mounts and figure out an adapter. Anyone have pics of the blower inlet?

Dr. Design
07-27-10, 09:02 PM
We have a blower assembly off of a car. We will take a picture and try and post it tomorrow if we get a chance.

If I recall, there isn't a lot of space down there... In addition to that, there are other restrictions that could be addressed prior to this...

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Cheatin' Chad
07-28-10, 06:28 AM
We have a blower assembly off of a car. We will take a picture and try and post it tomorrow if we get a chance.

If I recall, there isn't a lot of space down there... In addition to that, there are other restrictions that could be addressed prior to this...

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

The pictures would be much appreciated. What restrictions do you feel should be addressed prior to the throttle body?

bubba-v
07-28-10, 11:54 AM
This is from the Eaton inside board, Do we have these openings on our cars? :
The two oval slots on the output plate are air leakage ports. Their only purpose is to decrease operational noise from the blower. Arnie, from Eaton Corp., explains their function like this, "When you stomp on the gas, the boost shoots up and the air flow goes supersonic. The air then slams back into the output plate and through the leakage slots, which reduces the hammering of the air into the housing causing less noise. The OEM can not have such loud NVH, that’s why we put them in the housing. The 2 small ports are not there to feed air, only to reduce noise." Basically, for the best flow and most efficiency, these ports can be blocked off, making the outlet port (triangle slot) the only port on the outlet plate of the housing. Closing these ports will not increase IAT's; however, it will make the supercharger much louder when in boost. As an example, aftermarket supercharger companies, such as Harrop, Roush and Magnuson do not use these slots in their blowers.

550HP STSV
07-28-10, 12:05 PM
That is some sweet ass info. how the hell do we block off those ports?!

Dr. Design
07-28-10, 12:37 PM
We have spoken with Arnie on several occasions a few years ago when we were doing all of the development work for the LC3 engine. There is certainly more to that conversation than what is shown. The expected HP gains to be had by sealing up those pre-charge ports are about 10HP and a bunch of noise. This would have to be done off the car with the rotor/bearing pack removed from the assembly.

We experimented with this, but did not feel it would be prudent to introduce to the market.

Cadillac at the time wanted to have the NVH levels as low as possible, thinking that the average STS-V owner would not want to hear the supercharger whine, thus the pre-charge slits and the intake mufflers.

The problem still persists, the supercharger hits its limit fairly quickly when adding additional boost. Dont get me wrong, there is power to be gained. But if you are looking for major power, the blower has to go. No porting, fabrication, extrude hone, etc.. will be able to bring that blower back into an operational range when overboosted to make big power. This is why we are working on a new customer blower for this application.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


This is from the Eaton inside board, Do we have these openings on our cars? :
The two oval slots on the output plate are air leakage ports. Their only purpose is to decrease operational noise from the blower. Arnie, from Eaton Corp., explains their function like this, "When you stomp on the gas, the boost shoots up and the air flow goes supersonic. The air then slams back into the output plate and through the leakage slots, which reduces the hammering of the air into the housing causing less noise. The OEM can not have such loud NVH, thats why we put them in the housing. The 2 small ports are not there to feed air, only to reduce noise." Basically, for the best flow and most efficiency, these ports can be blocked off, making the outlet port (triangle slot) the only port on the outlet plate of the housing. Closing these ports will not increase IAT's; however, it will make the supercharger much louder when in boost. As an example, aftermarket supercharger companies, such as Harrop, Roush and Magnuson do not use these slots in their blowers.

bubba-v
07-28-10, 01:11 PM
Thanks for following up with the info on that. You are correct there is alot more to that discussion but I didnt want to overly hijack this thread. I'll add a new post summarizing the Eaton guy's supercharger mod discussions. Thank's for the mentioning the new blower you guys are working on, I know alot of people are anxious to hear the results.

coach123
07-28-10, 01:51 PM
Dr. Design.. We appreciate your feedback on the throttle body. I am curious when you were originally looking at the LC3 engine if you considered using different cams with adding the additional boost to the car. I believe a company called CHRFAB has swapped different cams with the older northstar engines and achieved very good gains from it.

How much additional rwhp/rwtq can be achieved using headers with your kit that utilize just the pulley, blower, meth kit, and intercooler lid work?

Dr. Design
07-28-10, 02:15 PM
Hello,
We did cams a long time ago. The gains were okay, but the biggest headache was keeping the cam actuators from trying to undo what the cams wanted the engine to do. I am sure if there was more of a market for it, we would get back to doing some of that development work. But to truely see the gains of cams, you need to address the blower, short block, then heads in that order. If not you are just masking the problems that are present.

We are familiar with Alan down at CHRF, as they have done a bunch of stuff on older northstars. They dont have anything that will work with the new gen motors or the LC3 application.

As for the additional HP/TQ, we measured around 100WHP/TQ gains on various builds of that same combination. Really depends on the car, but that is on average what we see.

By the way, here are those images as promised.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/IMG_4714.jpg


Let us know if there are any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac





Dr. Design.. We appreciate your feedback on the throttle body. I am curious when you were originally looking at the LC3 engine if you considered using different cams with adding the additional boost to the car. I believe a company called CHRFAB has swapped different cams with the older northstar engines and achieved very good gains from it.

How much additional rwhp/rwtq can be achieved using headers with your kit that utilize just the pulley, blower, meth kit, and intercooler lid work?

bubba-v
07-28-10, 02:25 PM
Awesome, thanks for sharing the pics and the information!

coach123
07-28-10, 02:31 PM
Thank you for the pics and the quick response. A few people including myself have wondered if your methanol injection kit you sell needs to have a corresponding tune with it or do you use it for just cooling purposes? Are there actually hp gains for the kit when tuned for it? Can you confirm that the kit you sell uses only the exisiting windshield washer reservoir or does it utilize a seperate tank?

Can you tell us anything about your turbo/supercharger project? I haven't heard much lately about it and have heard more about the new supercharger kit you are working on. Did the turbo/supercharger project end up being more problems or $$ then the gains were worth. What costs are we potentially looking at with the new supercharger kit?

Lots of questions that I know many of us would like to know about.

Dr. Design
07-28-10, 03:58 PM
Hmmm, those are a lot of questions. :)

The methanol system (when we use it) is to be used to keep the supercharger itself cool. Based on the research we did we determined that the rotors inside the casing would start to thermally expand if held at a given RPM for a period of time. In the event that something like that would happen, the rotors are in there so tight that they would come into contact with the casing, causing the supercharger to seize. Obviously methanol injection has a natural benefit and would require a tune. Or can benefit from a tune. We use the washer reservoir for the methanol mixture.

I cannot really talk about the supercharger program as of now since it is still in development. As you can probably tell, we aren't too concerned about the cost associated with the gains for the new supercharger. We are more interested in providing the solution to the problem of wanting more HP out of the late model northstar and removing the restriction from the system. Once we get the final numbers, we will then look into production costs, materials, etc... Right now it's a bunch of billet parts...

As for the turbo project. That customer car left here a few weeks ago. We wish we had more time to work on it, but the customer had to get back. The car made great power, about another 100WHP over when it was last in here for a stage 2.5 system. The customer loves it and was way more power than what he thought he was going to get. Scared him pretty good, but he has respect for the car and what is can do.



Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac





Thank you for the pics and the quick response. A few people including myself have wondered if your methanol injection kit you sell needs to have a corresponding tune with it or do you use it for just cooling purposes? Are there actually hp gains for the kit when tuned for it? Can you confirm that the kit you sell uses only the exisiting windshield washer reservoir or does it utilize a seperate tank?

Can you tell us anything about your turbo/supercharger project? I haven't heard much lately about it and have heard more about the new supercharger kit you are working on. Did the turbo/supercharger project end up being more problems or $$ then the gains were worth. What costs are we potentially looking at with the new supercharger kit?

Lots of questions that I know many of us would like to know about.

Cheatin' Chad
07-28-10, 07:28 PM
This is from the Eaton inside board, Do we have these openings on our cars? :
The two oval slots on the output plate are air leakage ports. Their only purpose is to decrease operational noise from the blower. Arnie, from Eaton Corp., explains their function like this, "When you stomp on the gas, the boost shoots up and the air flow goes supersonic. The air then slams back into the output plate and through the leakage slots, which reduces the hammering of the air into the housing causing less noise. The OEM can not have such loud NVH, that’s why we put them in the housing. The 2 small ports are not there to feed air, only to reduce noise." Basically, for the best flow and most efficiency, these ports can be blocked off, making the outlet port (triangle slot) the only port on the outlet plate of the housing. Closing these ports will not increase IAT's; however, it will make the supercharger much louder when in boost. As an example, aftermarket supercharger companies, such as Harrop, Roush and Magnuson do not use these slots in their blowers.

I uploaded a pic you can clearly see them. I believe I grabbed this pic from this board awhile ago. Someone that had their blower ported. So credit to the gentleman this originates from.

You'd have to weld them shut.

Dr.Design that you very much for the pic and quick response.

coach123
07-28-10, 09:05 PM
That is my blower. I had the blower inlet/outlet ported, intercooler lid ported, manifolds cleaned up, and a few other things done to the blower itself. I was told that the benefit to closing up the noise suppression ports were not worth the extra noise. It is hard to weld anything to the cast housing and the JB weld stuff tends to break off and end up in your engine (not good and not worth the risk).

coach123
07-28-10, 09:10 PM
That is my blower. I had the blower inlet/outlet ported, intercooler lid ported, manifolds cleaned up, and a few other things done to the blower itself. I was told that the benefit to closing up the noise suppression ports were not worth the extra noise. It is hard to weld anything to the cast housing and the JB weld stuff tends to break off and end up in your engine (not good and not worth the risk).

bubba-v
07-28-10, 09:28 PM
these photos are great! good warnings about the jb weld, dont do it.
What kind of noise are we talking about personally hearing the supercharger is a good thing. If its louder with a horsepower increase that sounds like a win win!

Cheatin' Chad
07-28-10, 09:58 PM
That is my blower. I had the blower inlet/outlet ported, intercooler lid ported, manifolds cleaned up, and a few other things done to the blower itself. I was told that the benefit to closing up the noise suppression ports were not worth the extra noise. It is hard to weld anything to the cast housing and the JB weld stuff tends to break off and end up in your engine (not good and not worth the risk).


Stegmeier (sp?) has been welding .125 al plates to the bottom of eaton blowers for the Cobras for a while to reduce plenum volume or something. There are pice of this on his site. It's not that hard at all to weld to the cast housing. You would want to weld some .125 plate over those instead of trying to fill them with weld though. He has pics of this on his FORUM but I can't seem to find the link to his forum at this time. I
'll update this when I do

EDIT: Found a pic from a mustang forum

Dr.Design: You think the 2.0l eaton blower itself is the limiting factor?
At what power level do you think the blower itself is the problem?
What are "Big numbers" to you?

PGA2B
07-28-10, 10:34 PM
http://dynobob.websitetoolbox.com/

You might even see a post from someone you know.....:shhh:

bubba-v
07-28-10, 11:20 PM
these photos are great! good warnings about the jb weld, dont do it.
What kind of noise are we talking about personally hearing the supercharger is a good thing. If its louder with a horsepower increase that sounds like a win win!

Cheatin' Chad
07-28-10, 11:45 PM
http://dynobob.websitetoolbox.com/

You might even see a post from someone you know.....:shhh:

Thank you:)

Here's the thread I was talking about

http://dynobob.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=4587868


The comments made in this thread below are incorrect in the fact that they do not appply to all welding.It's obviously an issue as it was done here. Cast AL can and is welded on a regular basis. Proper filler rod and material being welded too are neccessary for acceptable performance. I dont know if this "torque plate" works. I'm stating that welding to the cast blower housing is possible and it will work fine. Billet tabs are welded to 4bolt LS heads to use the additional fasteners the LSx blocks are capable of supporting. Cast Al heads are commonly welded to fill and reshape ports,etc.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/svt-forums/587449-psa-to-all-looking-to-get-ported-must-read.html

this thread has interestingly jumped off topic :)

Has anyone installed a ported TB on the LC3 engine? Do you guys know if the XLR V guys have?

coach123
07-29-10, 09:40 AM
I don't know of anyone who has done a full ported throttle body installation on either the STS-V or XLR-V. Unfortunately, these two cars represent a very small market and the xlr-v's have less traffic on the their forum then we do. It is sad to say that we realistically only have a dozen or so people that are even willing to do slight modifications to the car (i.e. CAI and tune):banghead:. I guess its the type of individuals that the car attracts and the fact that people are scared to work on the northstar engine platform.

I came from the 1st gen CTS-V side of things and I was around before the performance mods started to get increasing popular. It was the fact that it had the corvette engine that it attracted the performance enthusiasts. Two types of people, those that always want more and those that are happy with what they have.

I hope you decide to pursue the experiment and it yields good gains as a good number of enthusiasts will want to do the same.

Cheatin' Chad
07-29-10, 09:28 PM
I don't know of anyone who has done a full ported throttle body installation on either the STS-V or XLR-V. Unfortunately, these two cars represent a very small market and the xlr-v's have less traffic on the their forum then we do. It is sad to say that we realistically only have a dozen or so people that are even willing to do slight modifications to the car (i.e. CAI and tune):banghead:. I guess its the type of individuals that the car attracts and the fact that people are scared to work on the northstar engine platform.

I came from the 1st gen CTS-V side of things and I was around before the performance mods started to get increasing popular. It was the fact that it had the corvette engine that it attracted the performance enthusiasts. Two types of people, those that always want more and those that are happy with what they have.

I hope you decide to pursue the experiment and it yields good gains as a good number of enthusiasts will want to do the same.

You having a ported blower and a CAI would benefit most from a bored an ported TB. What MAF is the STS-V using? 85mm unit w/integrated IAT sensor?

I've read some of the threads you were in about the exhaust issues as well. Getting some better flow on the exhaust side would help a good deal too. I am willing to bet the TB is a good restriction for someone like you right now. Do you have an aftermarket torque converter? Who tuned your car?

The reason I am interested in the STS-V is exactly because hardly anyone is modding them. I'm tired of the "recipe" hot-rod. I wanna do somethign different again. When I built the 2004 Silverado SS and got it to run low 11's @5500lbs with 22" tires. I was cuttin 1.60 60' times with nitto street tires. If I recall Parish was running tens and cutting 1.66 with his set up. I was the only one doing that type of thing. Parish was running a turbo and spray on a stroker on a reg cab.The only Silverado SS that was quicker was running a blower and spray. It was alot of fun. The discovery process. Having to figure things out on my own.

That's why I'm building my camaro for standing mile competition.I'm going to do somethign different than the vipers,porsches,evos,etc. Drag racing is locked down for F-Bodies w/an LSx. The LSx world is either doing what has already been done or bleeding edge pushing for low 7's and faster. I don't have the funds or time for that.

bubba-v
07-29-10, 09:49 PM
I've seen alot of posts about improving things on the exhaust side. In the end none showed any serious gains.

PGA2B
07-29-10, 09:56 PM
I am FINALLY doing my exhaust Saturday morning. I am doing a 2.5" Magnaflow X pipe, Magnaflow 2.5" Mufflers and 4" Tips. I will post pics Saturday once it is done.

Cheatin' Chad
07-30-10, 02:35 AM
I've seen alot of posts about improving things on the exhaust side. In the end none showed any serious gains.

People have made changes between the exhaust port and cat back system? What headers or manifolds did they use?

While everything is important as a vehicle is a system.Inlet restrictions are usually the biggest deal on a PD blower engine.

Lower exhaust backpressure will reduce a restriction and drop boost. This is a good thing as additional flow is what makes power. How much I do not know. I would tap into an exhaust manifold ahead of the cat and see what kind of pressures where really there before I decided to fabricate or have someone else fabricate headers.

As far as the camshafts for the LC3 go someone would need to develop a limiter in order to get some aggressive cams in there. Something like this: http://www.byunspeed.com/product_info.php?products_id=11722

The cam phasing used in the L92 and L99 are causing grief when used with performance orientented camshafts.

Adjustable camshaft timing gears with a limiter would allow the power to be moved around to where it would work best.

MAST motorsport has developed a line of camshafts that retain the single cam VVT and have seen wonderful gains under the curve with them. Camshafts that can accomplish this could be made for the LC3 as well. Someone just has to want to spend the time and money to do it.

The VVT could be completely disabled but I would rather see it stay working as disabling would likely pick you up a fair amount in the upper rpm range and cut out quite a bit down low. Although, that might not be a bad thing considering the rear ends are like a glass jaw and the car is heavy. Lose enough TQ down low and it could be frustrating driving it around town. Wouldn't know without some testing though.

OK :) I jumped off topic there. I got an email stating the TB I purchased has been shipped via USPS. I'd like to get at least one more. The cheaper the better. I'd prefer to section a cheap used unit and port this new unit.

Anyone know of a good place online I can order used parts? I'd like another TB and a set of exhaust manifolds for the STS-V.

I am only going to purchase the STS-V if i KNOW I can accomplish mid 11sec
1/4mile at full weight. I need to keep gathering info in order to figure that out.

PGA2B
07-30-10, 08:39 AM
D3 has a header that is made to order but HELLA expensive.

As for another TB Try lkq.com

We are 13.2 bone stock. Mid to Low 12's should be within reach but mid 11's or lower I am not sure if that is possible without a VERY deep pocket.

Psycho-albanian
07-30-10, 07:10 PM
I'm dying to know if you can slap on a ls7 throttle body. How would you go about taking it off, from the bottom of the car or would you just have to reach back there and just do it old fashion way.:hmm:

Dr. Design
07-30-10, 07:15 PM
Blower must be removed....


I'm dying to know if you can slap on a ls7 throttle body. How would you go about taking it off, from the bottom of the car or would you just have to reach back there and just do it old fashion way.:hmm:

Cheatin' Chad
07-30-10, 07:23 PM
D3 has a header that is made to order but HELLA expensive.

As for another TB Try lkq.com

We are 13.2 bone stock. Mid to Low 12's should be within reach but mid 11's or lower I am not sure if that is possible without a VERY deep pocket.


Has anyone run an aggressive torque converter? I messaged yank about adapting one that would probably knock off a .3-.5 when coupled with a DR like a Nitto. More if you were willing to run an aggressive DR like a Mickey Thompson or Hoosier. I also have a transmission shop that I used to work with on custom converters and transmissions if you were willing to run around a 4200 stall speed with a 2.0 STR it'd probably drop .5-.7 with a tire.

I had a daily driver with a 3500 stall speed and 2.0 STR for two years and it was a joy to drive.

There is a lot more to going fast than making HP.

Psycho-albanian
07-30-10, 07:35 PM
I knew it would be tough to pull that throttle body off.

Psycho-albanian
07-30-10, 07:38 PM
D3 would a ls7 throttle body fit a sts-v or would it be better just having someone port and polish it.

coach123
07-30-10, 09:25 PM
You having a ported blower and a CAI would benefit most from a bored an ported TB. What MAF is the STS-V using? 85mm unit w/integrated IAT sensor?

I've read some of the threads you were in about the exhaust issues as well. Getting some better flow on the exhaust side would help a good deal too. I am willing to bet the TB is a good restriction for someone like you right now. Do you have an aftermarket torque converter? Who tuned your car?

The reason I am interested in the STS-V is exactly because hardly anyone is modding them. I'm tired of the "recipe" hot-rod. I wanna do somethign different again. When I built the 2004 Silverado SS and got it to run low 11's @5500lbs with 22" tires. I was cuttin 1.60 60' times with nitto street tires. If I recall Parish was running tens and cutting 1.66 with his set up. I was the only one doing that type of thing. Parish was running a turbo and spray on a stroker on a reg cab.The only Silverado SS that was quicker was running a blower and spray. It was alot of fun. The discovery process. Having to figure things out on my own.

That's why I'm building my camaro for standing mile competition.I'm going to do somethign different than the vipers,porsches,evos,etc. Drag racing is locked down for F-Bodies w/an LSx. The LSx world is either doing what has already been done or bleeding edge pushing for low 7's and faster. I don't have the funds or time for that.

I believe our cars have the same MAF sensor as the 2006-2010 corvette's. As far as benefiting from a ported throttle body I think you are correct. Bob Steigimeier even asked if there were larger throttle bodies available. He was going to port match the blower to the larger throttle body if that was the case.

Right now I have the stock torque converter, tranny, exhaust manifolds, and cats. Both Vengeance Racing and Wait4Me did a joint venture and tuned my car after the upgrades. I live in the Atlanta area so Vengeance basically sent Wait4Me all the dyno data and created both an EFIlive tune as well as a SCT tune for my handheld.

I'm a little perplexed that the 03-04 terminator mustangs are getting over 500rwhp with a very similar setup and we are having issues getting over 430-450rwhp on a mustang dyno. I wouldn't think we would be loosing 50rwhp due to an automatic transmission. I'm sure there are a few other differences between the motors but none that really jump out at me besides the 0.2L displacement advantage for the ford motor.

I hope your experimentation leads to more performance gains and I'll be looking forward to seeing what you determine.

Cheatin' Chad
07-30-10, 09:36 PM
I'm tracking down pin outs for the throttle bodies. I'll post the info up when I get everything I need.

Cheatin' Chad
07-31-10, 03:46 PM
I think we are both thinking along the same lines Coach. The 03/04 Cobra Mod motors are not inherently better than the N* as far as I can tell. We should be able to make similar power to them. Any engine in a Mustang will do well because there is a robust aftermarket for anything Mustang. Vengeance Racing is well respected in the LSx community I'm confident anything they did was on or above par. The 6l80e is going to show much more loss than a t56 will but I think more than 450rwhp is possible without getting crazy.

Can you post a pic of the MAF for me?

Do you have any info on the exhaust manifolds? are these units only used on the STS-V? short of headers which may be cost prohibitive they may be able to be modified for an increase in performance. If someone here could clue me into that I could pick up a set of those as well. I'd really like to get a set of these.

Also, I'm currently looking for more throttle bodies. I'd like to get two more units, without electronics is fine. Cheap and used preferable. If I am able to make meaningful changes to the stock TB I'd be willing to send the bored/ported TB to someone w/an LC3 to see what real world results would come from it.

I'm trying to find what components are holding back power production on these engines.If I can't I may get a V and drop in a 400+cid LS2 or go straight to a CTS-V2. I really like the idea of the STS-V w/a N* right now.

If you're interested in actually going fast instead of just putting down numbers you should seriously consider a performance converter.

coach123
08-02-10, 10:10 AM
Not sure if you have seen the specs on the STSV but here is a breakdown:

LC3 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS
Type: 4.4L DOHC 32 valve 90()() V-8
RPO: LC3
Manufactured: Performance Build Center, Wixom, Mich.
Displacement: 4371 cc (267 ci) Bore x Stroke: 91 mm x 84 mm
Compression Ratio: 9.0:1
Valve Configuration: Dual overhead cam (4 valves per cylinder)
Valve Lifters: Roller follower with hydraulic lash adjusters
Valve Head Diameter: Intake: 36 mm
Exhaust: 29 mm
Firing Order: 1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8
Engine As Shipped Weight: 229.7 kg (506.4 lbs.)
Engine Control Module: Delphi E67 ECM, 40 MHz control unit, 2 megabytes external flash memory and 128 kilobytes external SRAM
Additional Features: Piston spray cooling Friction washers at front of crankshaft Platinum tip spark plugs
Fuel System: Sequential Fuel Injection Returnless system
Injector flow rate: 40 g/s Premium required, 91 minimum octane
Horsepower: 440 (328 kW)@ 6400 rpm (estimate)
Torque (lb-ft): 430 (583 Nm) @ 3600 rpm (estimate) 90 percent of peak torque available between 2200 and 6000 rpm
Fuel Shutoff: 6700 rpm
Emissions Control: BIN8/EURO 4 compliant Close-coupled catalytic converters EGR and AIR not required
Oil: Synthetic 5W-30 9 qts. with filter
Block: Upper - sand-cast 319 T7 aluminum, Lower - die-cast aluminum
Bore spacing: 102 mm
Cylinder Head: 319 T7 semi permanent mold cast aluminum alloy with polished exhaust ports
Supercharger / Intake: GM patented integral design. GM specific helical Roots rotor set, cast aluminum case 2.0L (122 ci) displacement 2.1:1 pulley ratio, Four laminova style intercoolers Modulated bypass
Crankshaft: Forged steel with rolled fillets
Camshafts: Cast nodular iron
Cam Phasers:
Intake: Initial timing 133 degrees ATDC with 40 degrees advance authority
Exhaust: Initial timing 117 degrees BTDC with 50 degrees retard authority
Valve Lift: Intake: 10.5mm (.413 inch)
Exhaust: 10.0mm (.394 inch)
Duration @ .050"
Intake: 202 degrees
Exhaust: 214 degrees
Pistons: Cast aluminum, polymer coated, anodized top land 5.4mm, full floating 24mm pin
Connecting Rods: Powder Metal with heat treatment
Length: 151 mm
Exhaust Manifold: Cast nodular iron Accessory Drive Three belts
Rear: Alternator
Middle: AC, PS and water pump
Front: SC

As far as the exhaust manifolds go they look just like the regular 2005-2009 Cadillac STS exhaust manifolds. I believe you can use the STS exhaust manifolds as a jig for the STS-V. The manifolds have the catalytic converters built into them.

I will try and get a pic of the MAF sensor when I get some time this week.

Cheatin' Chad
08-03-10, 01:15 AM
Well, I found out that the electronics are there to use a throttle body from the CTS-V or aftermarket equivalents. LMR sells a 102 with integrated N2O plate.. I do not know if the will fit though. Worse comes to worse TB could be replaced with an inlet tube and TB moved to the front of the engine bay or side,wherever you'd like actually. It would be like the GT500 TB set ups...

I haven't received the TB I ordered.The seller requested a delivery confirmation signature and I'm working nights this month.I am sleeping when the mail runs... Hopefully I will get to the Post office this morning and pick it up.

Thanks Coach. I did have that info. I did a few weeks of searching before I started posting here.
I have been looking for exhaust manifolds on eBay w/no luck. I think thee is a wrecking yard here in town that lets you pick your own. when I get off nights I am going to head over there and see.

Cheatin' Chad
08-03-10, 08:58 PM
I received the TB I purchased from eBay today. It's brand new and in it's original box. Just a quick glance will tell you it can't be bored or ported very much.The Oring groove is about a few mm away from the current opening. Maybe 8-10hp gained for a fair amount of work ...
However, an adaptor could be made like I stated in my previous post. I think running dual TBs such as this : http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=460927

or a large single would produce very real gains.

I'm going to continue researching this.

Again if anyone has an extra set of exhaust manifolds they'd like to seel or knows where I could get some I'd appreciate it.

staffcurtis
10-12-10, 10:23 PM
How's this project going with the throttle body? Is it any easier (or possible) to swap out the supercharger with a different model, or swap an LSX in it's place?

I know you are fond of the northstar motor, but I'm getting an STS-V soon, and would like to make the car as fast as possible...as cheap as possible!

jedhead
10-13-10, 02:14 AM
Fast and cheap don't go together with these LC3 engines.

Bob

PGA2B
10-13-10, 07:52 AM
Fast and cheap don't go together with these LC3 engines.

Bob

And an LSx swap is not cheap either. You will have CAN bus issues as well to fight.

CMNTMXR57
10-14-10, 10:54 AM
Judging by the pics of the TB on the blower posted by D3, there is no LSx ETC TB that will fit into the recess on this blower. It is truly tucked in there.

You'd have to create an adaptor plate, cap the coolant bypass lines, run a tube, and relocate the TB itself, then figure out how to craft the plumbing from the intake inlet lines into it. Then figure out the electronic harness variances.

If I were to relocate it, I'd just move it up into the firewall area, then create a new "Y" pipe fo funnel both intake plenum runners into it and then run another tube down into the blower. But that probably would require a lot of man hours in fabrication and cost for minimal gain as has been mentioned throughout this thread.

On a side note, I seem to remember the Lightning guys would cap there vents and pick up an additional 10 - 15 rwhp.

PGA2B
10-14-10, 12:42 PM
On a side note, I seem to remember the Lightning guys would cap there vents and pick up an additional 10 - 15 rwhp.

What vents are you refering to?

Dr. Design
10-14-10, 12:55 PM
Please note that if you close the pre-charge vents on the supercharger outlet you will experience more NVH and supercharger whine, FYI... The realistic gains are about 10-15HP gain.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


What vents are you refering to?

PGA2B
10-14-10, 01:46 PM
That is what I thought but wanted to be sure.

CMNTMXR57
10-14-10, 02:15 PM
Yea, sorry, I've always called them "vents". If that's the wrong terminology, I apologize.

Cheatin' Chad
11-18-10, 07:21 PM
Still working on this but it's on the backburner. I have been working on a C5 Corvette Daily Driver/Drag Racer (runs 10s,gets 26mpg and could drive from NY to LA just like a stock Corvette) and dealing with work.It's busy time of year for Wind Turbines here so I've been busy. I'll post some pictures of what I've found concerning the TB in a month or so. Jan and Feb should allow some more free time.Still looking for exhaust Manifolds...

1madstsv
11-19-10, 10:56 AM
I also would like to run 11s but not brake the bank. Ran 12.6 with less then 400rwhp bad 60ft so we will see what springs holds for it. My c5 runs 11.72 @ 120.98 1.87 with street tires and 405rwhp/363tq. So the v with 450whp and 400+tq and lo 60 ft like 1.65 ish should get it in the 11s. My cre cab long bed durmax runs 12.8-12.95 with 448whp/789tq at 7800lbs 1.75 60ft. But for the track a tq converter is a must. The g8s see good gains at the track with stall converters keep up the good work