My dealer got an '04 last Spring that quickly sold to a guy around the corner from me.

2 months ago they got a '05. last month they got another '05.
They are both sitting there on the lot.

Is the market already saturated for a car of this type?
You know, a performance sedan that only comes with a manual, when most of the others offer a auto.
How are they selling in your area?

Seems like the initial fizzle has worn a bit, as expected of many new models. There seem to be deals around at well under MSRP in many regions. Part of the issue is the general poor state of the market, where many models have manufacturer finance, lease, and rebate incentives that make for a better relative value proposition. IMHO the V has served it's purpose in proving that americans can build a performance sedan competitive with germany... but it will take years to create the type of cult following and image of the BMW M models. The V at discount is a fantastic deal, even if some early buyers (wrongly) thought demand would remain ahead of supply. And yes, an auto tranny may have moved a few more, but GMPD went after image first and foremost.

Seems like the initial fizzle has worn a bit, as expected of many new models. There seem to be deals around at well under MSRP in many regions. Part of the issue is the general poor state of the market, where many models have manufacturer finance, lease, and rebate incentives that make for a better relative value proposition. IMHO the V has served it's purpose in proving that americans can build a performance sedan competitive with germany... but it will take years to create the type of cult following and image of the BMW M models. The V at discount is a fantastic deal, even if some early buyers (wrongly) thought demand would remain ahead of supply. And yes, an auto tranny may have moved a few more, but GMPD went after image first and foremost.While I agree the V is a great car, and a great value, GM on a whole has been heavily discounting cars for the last 4 years now. At some point I think GM needs to realize that maybe across the board their prices are higher than consumers want to pay. What has more value, (1) a car marked at $50K with $5K in "discounts" or (2) a car marked at $45K with no discounts sold at list. Law of advertising and branding is that if you give the consumer the impression you're having difficulty selling your product, then consumers don't feel confident buying your product.

-Adam

i have to disagree with that. after receiving a business degree and spending 12 years working in retail, i know that people want a deal. if you priced the v at 60k and offered 10-15k in rebates, more people would look than if you price it at 45-50, guarrenteed. people want to feel like they got a deal or worked something out. they also want to feel like they have a 60k car even if it's only really a 45k car. if you tried to sell all your cars at list now you'd never sell one. go to walmart or a grocery store and tell them to get rid of all sales and 'bonus cards' that offer more discounts and just sell it for the cheaper price. they'd laugh you out the door. it's not what the consumer gets, it's what they think they're getting that counts.

i forgot, there is a v in my area that has been sitting on the showroom for about 4 months now. they don't even advertise it in the paper anymore. i'd say demand has really fallen off and now isn't the time of year to try to sell a rear-wheel drive sports car in the northeast.

i forgot, there is a v in my area that has been sitting on the showroom for about 4 months now. they don't even advertise it in the paper anymore. i'd say demand has really fallen off and now isn't the time of year to try to sell a rear-wheel drive sports car in the northeast.
My dealer has 5 V's sitting in the lot for a while now. I guess it's the fact that I live in So Cal and manuals don't tend to sell very well due to traffic.

i have to disagree with that. after receiving a business degree and spending 12 years working in retail, i know that people want a deal. if you priced the v at 60k and offered 10-15k in rebates, more people would look than if you price it at 45-50, guarrenteed. people want to feel like they got a deal or worked something out. they also want to feel like they have a 60k car even if it's only really a 45k car. if you tried to sell all your cars at list now you'd never sell one. go to walmart or a grocery store and tell them to get rid of all sales and 'bonus cards' that offer more discounts and just sell it for the cheaper price. they'd laugh you out the door. it's not what the consumer gets, it's what they think they're getting that counts.
For short term sales you can always cash in brand equity to turn a quick profit, but if you preserve and do not dillute the brand then long term sales stay strong. Look at BMW for instance. While Bimmers can and do get discounted, people really feel they accomplish something by getting a BMW $1000 off list. Why is that? Because BMW has a strong brand and to get a Bimmer for under list is viewed as an accomplishment because of that. GM has been discounting for so long that the perception is that if you get a GM product for only $1,000 off list then you got screwed. That is the consumer on average feels the product is artifically priced high and is not worth the value. BMW has the perception of the price they offer is a value and thus the same discount is viewed more favorably.

FWIW I to have a business background, and have run a couple of company's. My experience is that companies that are run year to year can do serious long term damage in the goal of short term sales. It's a balancing act really, you have to perserve the brand, and move as much product as you can. The trick to being succesful is allways building one less item than you can sell. GM hasn't been able to operate like that for a long time.

-Adam

My dealer has 5 V's sitting in the lot for a while now. I guess it's the fact that I live in So Cal and manuals don't tend to sell very well due to traffic.
Yea as much as I love manuals I would love to see a V with an SMG type tranny. Maybe there is hope the new 6L65E automatic will see the light of day in a V. FWIW I much prefer a real clutch to a torque converter by I have my doubts GM will offer a real sequental tranny anytime soon rather a "manu-matic" Auto.

-Adam

The reason the market is as strong anymore is because there is no advertising on the V. I have yet to see a V ad on tv or in a mag, all the intitial hype was by fans of cadillac who knew about the V well before the release. The depreation after just a few months of ownership is rediculas around here. I have already seen 1 V's tradeing into the local cadillac and 2 to a local MB dealer for under 38k. One of them at the mercedes store was a 04 with 3000 miles one it, for 35k. I do not know what they sold them for but that is what they have taken them in for. I think that if there is more people that know about the V, it will be in higher demand and the value will stay decent.

The reason the market is as strong anymore is because there is no advertising on the V. I have yet to see a V ad on tv or in a mag, all the intitial hype was by fans of cadillac who knew about the V well before the release. The depreation after just a few months of ownership is rediculas around here. I have already seen 1 V's tradeing into the local cadillac and 2 to a local MB dealer for under 38k. One of them at the mercedes store was a 04 with 3000 miles one it, for 35k. I do not know what they sold them for but that is what they have taken them in for. I think that if there is more people that know about the V, it will be in higher demand and the value will stay decent.
Well yes and no. Advertising doesn't neccesarily sell cars. Publicity and Buzz do. Advertising is a tool for protecting market share, Buzz and Publicity is a tool for growing market share. GM IMOHO hasn't done much to promote the "market" which is how you generate buzz around your product.

Actually let me put it another way. The CTS-V is targeting the "$50K German performance car market". Buyers of that market are typically looking for a "$50K German performance car". As such GM has to sell a product in a market missing one of the defining characteristics of that market. They have two choices, (1) try to get the buyers of the "$50K German performance car market" to rethink the market as the "$50K sport sedan performance car market" (i.e. expand the market) or (2) Define their own market. Maybe "$50K american muscle performance car market". Either way they have to control the market with Buzz and publicity. Buy mearly advertising their car as a strong value in an existing market they are "chasing" market rather than defining it and thus at best they can only make the all the shares of the pie in an existing market smaller. Either way I don't see GM being a major player in this market if it's in the control of the Germans. So a much better strategy is to Define a market and place a product in that new market. The easiest way to control a market is to define it, create it and lead it. for example:

What was the market for Inline Skates before Roller Blades? Nada
What was the market for delivery-only pizza stores before "Little Ceasers"? Nada

At any rate so back to advertising, advertising preserves market share once buzz dies down. It does little to grow it. Why? because a Market's size is set by the the demand for the market, not demand for a specific product in that market. If the Market size stays the same the only way to grow is to steal share from your competitors in that market. Does advertising do that? Not really, does having a CTS-V dominate a comparison test by an objective third party? Yup. Advertising is really just a tool to keep up brand awareness and to tell people what your brand is.

-Adam

Shinkaze,

I think you are correct especially on your GM statements in particular.
A buyer wants value, but that does not necessarily mean the lowest
purchase price.
It can't be good for Cadillac to have dealers selling Escalades for $12k off.

In the last 4-5 years GM has had a dozen or more price increases each year.
And incentive and rebate increases each year.

The MSRP is not a true reflection of the market, because no buyer is willing to pay that.

A $28K Impala can be bought for $22K. A $32K Silverado pickup can be bought for $24K!!!

The dealers say they need the high MSRP to get people out of their upside down trades. I say price the cars correctly and the resale as a percentage will remain higher.

Price the $28K Impala at $24.9K and the $32K pickup at 27.5K and people will beat a path to their door ,and if they need to throw incentives at them there is still room.

Maybe GM needs to take a page out of the Chyrysler 300 pricing handbook.

And i still can't figure out why the SRX was priced at 38.7K, but that is another subject.

As an added advantage to pricing the cars realisticly, you can offer higher residuals on lease agreements and thus get consumers into more expensive cars. This is one reason that BMWs sell as well as they do. Buddy of mine has a 545i sport ($65K MSRP) and he's paying $700/month with $0 down. This is primarily because of the super-high residual on the car.

FWIW sometimes you can be even more succesful by pricing a car above the competition. Look at Mercedes. After WWII they decided they wanted to "create" the luxury car market (define a market, lead a market and you dominate the market). So they looked at Cadillac, doubled the price, and offered their cars with minimal discounts. Well, up until that point Cadillac was the premier luxury car line, but in the buyer's mind, Mercedes' strategy underminded their perception of Cadillac. How can Cadillac be "the" prestige brand if the Merc is twice as much? Is it a "value" car? Well Prestigious cars really aren't sold on value. Overnight Merc's strategy underminded Cadillac's perception of being "the" prestige brand.

The V will have large depreciation by German Car standards. My hunch is buying one is a sunk cost. And seeing that there are serious issues with this car like wheel hop , diff. problems, etc. , the depreciation will tend to increase. I love the car but the fact is that American cars do not hold their value and the V will be worse than average due to the Premium price tag.

The V will have large depreciation by German Car standards. My hunch is buying one is a sunk cost. And seeing that there are serious issues with this car like wheel hop , diff. problems, etc. , the depreciation will tend to increase. I love the car but the fact is that American cars do not hold their value and the V will be worse than average due to the Premium price tag.Well my opinion on that is its a problem of Brand perception. Consumers percieve the GM Brand to be over priced, and or one that doesn't hold it's value. What's needed is for GM to change their perception of it's brand. Not an easy task, but one I think they're trying to acomplish with cars like the CTS-V, STS and XLR.

baf ctsv

It will have greater depreciation, but the CTS is basically a excellent platform
with good body rigidity that will make it feel solid for many miles to come.

This is in contrast to the vehicles that GM foisted on us several years ago.

Does anybody remember the first FWD Seville/Deville back in the late '80s that GM put the harsh supension on and the 16" Goodyear Gatorbacks?
Talk about a vehicle that was a flexible flyer after 10,000 miles.

The Sigma platform is a good one and that will help with the ownership experience.

baf ctsv

It will have greater depreciation, but the CTS is basically a excellent platform
with good body rigidity that will make it feel solid for many miles to come.

This is in contrast to the vehicles that GM foisted on us several years ago.

Does anybody remember the first FWD Seville/Deville back in the late '80s that GM put the harsh supension on and the 16" Goodyear Gatorbacks?
Talk about a vehicle that was a flexible flyer after 10,000 miles.

The Sigma platform is a good one and that will help with the ownership experience.
Motor Trend once described the Body of the C4 corvette as not really being one car so much as many parts flying in very close formation :D

meh. it's so much damn fun to drive, it gets looks, it thrashes Porsches....who cares if my 2 month old car is worth 20K now...i'm going to pay it off early, and beat the hell out of her for years to come :D
that's worth the money to me :)

I have an opportunity to buy a bl/bl car with 8800 miles for $40,500 from a caddy dealer. I thought that was a fair price. I saw a car with 1000 miles sell for $43,000 on ebay recently and a no reserve car with 5500 miles and $1200 in extras sell for $42,700.

trade in at $35k :eek:

I'm resigned to the bad depreciation but I'm OK with that. Nonetheless, it truly is SAD that these cars - and the C5 vette for that matter - no do get better respect in the aftermarket.

there is a silver '04 at a dealership, brand new. Been there bout 4 + months now. About three months ao I stopped by a few times and clearly indicated I was interested. At one point they offerred me a $1,000 CDN of MSRP as a "courtesy". I never heard from them again, a clearly qualified buyer. (they still have it as of last weekend.

You would think they would call ME every few weeks and say, "...lets make a deal"

After attending the Drive Summit at El Toro in California, I placed a $2K deposit on an 05 V for MSRP at a local So Cal dealer with the intention of picking up the car this Fall as we would be traveling all Summer in an RV.
I have kept up with the V problems posted on this board especially the axle tramp, differential failures, etc.
I believe that these problems and the middle of the road results from car mags, not meeting acceleration times pumped by Cadillac, poor color choices, not having options available early on, lack of auto trans, etc. have had a negative effect on demand and therefore selling price. The supply may be managed, but still, as mentioned by others, prices are falling.
At a dealership in the Sierras, who I have dealt with in the past, they had a black V on the lot when we passed there in June. We went by again a few days ago and it was still there. I talked to the sales guy and I am sure they would sell that car (an 04) at a large discount from MSRP. Now I am rethinking the purchase with the local dealer. At this point there is no way I would pay MSRP for the 05. Going to watch the market, check out the STS and open my thinking to that and maybe to other brands. May still end up with the V.
If the V had hit the market with only minor glitches, and ace magazine reviews, the market would be strong. IMHO Cadillac’s foray into the performance field is not off to the quickest start. Stay tuned

I'm an engineer for GM Powertrain with the Allison 1000 Series automatic trans in Baltimore. We are consulting the new programs for 6 speed automatics (i.e. 6L65E). I'll ask around to see if there's any torque ratings available yet. That should tell us if it's even possible.

I've had my Platinum V for about a month and love it. I'm trying to sell my 350Z currently. They look great beside each other in the driveway.

I live in CT. I just bought my V last friday after talking to dealers all over CT and a few in NY.......I actually visited 5 dealers in CT, and 3 in NY. And there were a few more dealers in CT that had Vs in stock who I never went to talk to.

Among the dealers I visited, there was a total of 15 CTS-Vs, 8-'04s and 7-'05s. All were either platinum or black and everyone had a sunroof. EVERY dealer was willing to discount substantially. I wound up buying an '04 with 13 miles for a VERY aggressive price.

The long of the short of it is.....Vs are not selling up to expectations.

The hilarious thing is that the VERY FIRST thing to come out of a dealers mouth is, "well, this is a limited production vehicle and they are very hard to get ahold of........blah blah blah". Then I just loved to tell them that I have looked at more Vs in a 100mile radius than I can count on both hands. Save it genius.

Well, 3 months ago he would've been right. Eh, I'm still glad I got mine when I did. It's been a fun summer. :want:

All I have to say is...Galves.

Go look at any car in that price range and see what it is worth when you drive it off the lot. I was thinking of getting a Navigator, I checked Galves and the $62k MSRP (they discounted it 11k before I even asked) was a whopping $37k once it was titled. So $15k off sticker on any American car is not so bad. Keep in mind that in Galves what they will do in most cases, not sure about this one, is take the base CTS model and 'add on' packages. If they do have a seperate listing for the CTS-V already I would be surprised, but I am sure miscreant could find out since I don't have a copy handy.

Trade-in on Galves is always going to be the rock bottom price, that is auction price, and anyone who expects any car to have good resale at a dealer is a little bent. At a GM dealer they will certainly give you more for it (maybe a couple grand) since they know they will get more on a flip or trade for the car.

The bottom line is this is the ONLY performance sports sedan made by Detroit right now. Noone really knows it exists. If you think the CTS model line is a failure you must not live in in NJ, I see them every 2 feet here. A lot of people with 50-60k to spend do not like a 'rough' car with a bumpy cam and a nice loud roar. They like the Jags and Benzes, etc. They are completely different animals, but I am sure the V series will be a very defining line for Cadillac. If they do it right they will compete heavily with Benz (AMG) and BMW (M series), if they do it wrong they will scrap it and we will all be very unhappy with our depreciation. But the engines and the body styles are popular, taking it to the V level should not be a big leap for Cadillac.

For those of you who think GM is overpriced, try buying an AMG Benz. They don't come with Xenon (for over $80,000) or DVD/navigation or the nicer amenities, stock. If you want the upgraded wood grain expect to pay TEN GRAND for it, as well as the premium colors. I have no idea how you can look at a car with navigation, xenon, and 400 under the hood for $51,000 and think that there is any car out there that can touch it apples-to-apples. The closest competitor is the Jaguar and that is another almost $10k on top of it (again, stripped with no features). Shinzake hit the nail on the head, Cadillac's biggest challenge is reinventing themselves as a younger brand, targeting people who crave speed and luxury, and getting them to think of GM as a 'hip' car manufacturer.

To end my tirade, if you think that MB and BMW launch new models without problems look at the M5 boards, that car had vicious wheel hop when it came out and some say it still does. Except when your M5 is messed up you realize you just paid $70,000+ for the car, the interior is just as stingy as the V, and there's very little you can do to complain to BMW about it. And forget about the cost of aftermarket fab for it.

Looks like I started a good thread with some great discussion.
My question about whether it was still selling well was based on what I see locally.
I live in Charleston, SC. The Tri County area consists of a population of over
600,000 people. We have 2 Cadillac stores owned by the same family.
The 2 '05 "V"s are in the Mount Pleasant store which has some of the highest demographics in the state.
The economy and growth is so incredibly strong here that there is a 3% building permit cap. A 1500 sqft house is 225K-350K.
And yet these cars sit at the Cadillac dealership unsold.

I am willing to bet that we will see the V included in incentives within 2 months.

Look what incentives did to GTO sales. Major increases. $3500 was just announced yesterday on the GTO.

I'm out on Long Island NY, and my dealer a couple weeks ago had a Black on Black CTS-V on there showroom marked up $5,000 over sticker. Went by there earlier this week and did not see it there. So I guess there's still a market here. Another Caddy dealer by me also marks up the price on the V $5,000, not to mention that the XLR gets a $15,000 mark up at both also. This being the reason why if I were gonna get a V, I would leave NY to do it.I have to agree that the V is a great deal for the price. I think the V may not be selling as well by all the reported rear diff problems. $50,000 for a V is a great deal but still is alot of money, so people may be scared to plunk down 50Gs and have to deal with the innevitable rear diff/wheel hop issues. Doesn't take long for bad news to travel. Also anyone trading in a vehicle at a dealer will always, always take a bath on the car. Your always better trying to sell it on your own but some people do not have the patience to deal with it.

All I have to say is...Galves.

Go look at any car in that price range and see what it is worth when you drive it off the lot. I was thinking of getting a Navigator, I checked Galves and the $62k MSRP (they discounted it 11k before I even asked) was a whopping $37k once it was titled. So $15k off sticker on any American car is not so bad. Keep in mind that in Galves what they will do in most cases, not sure about this one, is take the base CTS model and 'add on' packages. If they do have a seperate listing for the CTS-V already I would be surprised, but I am sure miscreant could find out since I don't have a copy handy.

Trade-in on Galves is always going to be the rock bottom price, that is auction price, and anyone who expects any car to have good resale at a dealer is a little bent. At a GM dealer they will certainly give you more for it (maybe a couple grand) since they know they will get more on a flip or trade for the car.

The bottom line is this is the ONLY performance sports sedan made by Detroit right now. Noone really knows it exists. If you think the CTS model line is a failure you must not live in in NJ, I see them every 2 feet here. A lot of people with 50-60k to spend do not like a 'rough' car with a bumpy cam and a nice loud roar. They like the Jags and Benzes, etc. They are completely different animals, but I am sure the V series will be a very defining line for Cadillac. If they do it right they will compete heavily with Benz (AMG) and BMW (M series), if they do it wrong they will scrap it and we will all be very unhappy with our depreciation. But the engines and the body styles are popular, taking it to the V level should not be a big leap for Cadillac.

For those of you who think GM is overpriced, try buying an AMG Benz. They don't come with Xenon (for over $80,000) or DVD/navigation or the nicer amenities, stock. If you want the upgraded wood grain expect to pay TEN GRAND for it, as well as the premium colors. I have no idea how you can look at a car with navigation, xenon, and 400 under the hood for $51,000 and think that there is any car out there that can touch it apples-to-apples. The closest competitor is the Jaguar and that is another almost $10k on top of it (again, stripped with no features). Shinzake hit the nail on the head, Cadillac's biggest challenge is reinventing themselves as a younger brand, targeting people who crave speed and luxury, and getting them to think of GM as a 'hip' car manufacturer.
Well to my point above (and BTW I do agree with you that the CTS-V is the best VALUE in the segment), the challenge is this segment is considered a German car segment so of course an american product is going to have a tough fight to fight. To that end I think GM is doing a great job of beating the Germans at their own game. (conversly on the super high end I think the E55, CL65/55, SL65/55, etc the Germans are beating the Americans at their own game ...ugh). At any rate, While I applaud GM for offering very high Value in the market, Value really isn't a consideration for the buyer in this segment. Rather it's:

Performance
Prestige
Luxury
Service

The next iteration of the CTS-V needs to do better than mearly equal the M3 It needs to dominate the M3 around the track. Prestige is going to be harder since Cadillac has to "reinvent itself"... which I feel they're trying to do with their new line up. Luxury is IMOHO the best of any American manufacturer. But sit in a CLK500, look at the interior and we have a ways to go yet. (note: I do like the CTS-V interior better than the C55 AMG). The Current M3 Interior is more upscale than the CTS-V (IMOHO) However, I thinkthe CTS-V interior is more modern. That is sit in a new Honda accord, then sit in a 1980's Jag. The 1980's jag has a much more upscale interior, but given the choice you would want to have the Honda Accord interior as it's more modern. I think the same issue is true with the E46 M3 vs. the CTS-V. As far as "luxury" goes, again I think GM has a home run. As You said, feature for feature the CTS-V has it all compared to the "S", "M" and "AMG", but again that goes back to value. In that regard I think the features could be more thought out and in their own execution be a bit nicer, but now I'm just picking hairs.

To sum it up the biggest fault GM has to overcome with the CTS-V is not the CTS-V's fault. Rather it's the Cadillac brand's fault. Cadillac has catered to the older luxury crowd for some time now (which has been succesful for them) but it gives the "old" image to their product. The CTS-V is a "young" car so in that regard it's not very true to the current image of Cadillac, rather it's true to the image they want to persue. It may take some time for that image to become perception of the market, and during this in-between phase I think it will work against the resell of the CTS-V.
To end my tirade, if you think that MB and BMW launch new models without problems look at the M5 boards, that car had vicious wheel hop when it came out and some say it still does. Except when your M5 is messed up you realize you just paid $70,000+ for the car, the interior is just as stingy as the V, and there's very little you can do to complain to BMW about it. And forget about the cost of aftermarket fab for it.
I have about 20K miles on an e39 M5. Great car, no real problems, but it was a 2001 not a 2000 model. I think every car has some issues it's first year, even if its a line extension of an existing product.

-Adam

Long and short of the matter - I bought my "V" because I didn't want to be driving what everyone else was. I wanted luxury and a lot of toys, but I also wanted room and a lot of performance; a 4 door muscle car. After looking at several other choices, I realized that I was going to have to pay $80K+ to get what I wanted. When I heard and read about the "V", it became a no-brainer .... seeing it in person and driving it sold me right then and there.

Is it perfect? Of course not. One could spend unlimited dollars and never find the "perfect" car. There are things about any car, be it a Corvette, Mercedes, BMW, that one could have issues with. Some have described the V's interior as "ugly." Compared to what? The interior co-ordinates perfectly with the sharp-edged look of the rest of the car. I personally do not like a lot of wood, etc - I have that in my De Ville, which is a totally other animal. Another complaint is wheel hop - for God's sake, the car is a 400 HP sedan - without spinning the wheels even I can take the car 0-60 in 5 seconds flat without wheel hop. My '98 Trans-Am couldn't do that, and it is considered to be a muscle car! I've owned muscle cars all of my life and I have tried to avoid wheel spin. In my opinion wheel spin is strictly for showing off or drag racing the car at the strip, and if you want to do that, there are plenty of after market fixes. Those who do it should not complain about differential problems, going through $300+ tires in 4-5,000 miles, and drive-line clunks.

My real world is street driving, and for $50K the "V" is what I've been looking for for years - luxury,room, toys, acceleration, and (let's not forget) fantastic handling. And I don't want to see another one around every corner or have to pay $80K - $90K to get it.

After attending the Drive Summit at El Toro in California, I placed a $2K deposit on an 05 V for MSRP at a local So Cal dealer with the intention of picking up the car this Fall
...Now I am rethinking the purchase with the local dealer. At this point there is no way I would pay MSRP for the 05. Going to watch the market, check out the STS and open my thinking to that and maybe to other brands. May still end up with the V.
I am attending the Drive Summit in El Toro next weekend. How did you like it and how much seat time did you get in the V? :confused:

I feel similiar after readoing about the severe depreciation, failure of Cadillac to address the problems of wheel hop, alarm missing, dead battery, and disappointing dealer experiences. I am still looking favorably at the V but considering other options including keeping my 02 M5 which is coming off lease and warranty in a few months.

Cadillac has a long way to go to catch BMW which is why there is such a BIG price difference. On another note, BMW is offering huge discount to their dealer letting them make the deal with the customer rather than customer direct rebates. (i.e. $4,500 on the Z4)

Shin,

All the AMG line is doing is tuning motors with more and more HP and/or supercharging them to get ridiculous hp/tq numbers. It isn't exactly beating the US at their own game because we HAVE basically no cars on that level, with the possible exception of the Viper. But the V with $10k in work would have more hp than anything other than the V12 AMGs and would out-handle and out-perform them handily.

The STS-V and XLR-V will be very interesting to see. I hope that Cadillac doesn't compromise and comes out with very aggressive cars that still keep the sleeper-type road noise but have either a cure for the wheel-hop or a nice SMG transmission to keep up with the other auto/SMG Germans.

Shin,

All the AMG line is doing is tuning motors with more and more HP and/or supercharging them to get ridiculous hp/tq numbers. It isn't exactly beating the US at their own game because we HAVE basically no cars on that level, with the possible exception of the Viper. But the V with $10k in work would have more hp than anything other than the V12 AMGs and would out-handle and out-perform them handily.

The STS-V and XLR-V will be very interesting to see. I hope that Cadillac doesn't compromise and comes out with very aggressive cars that still keep the sleeper-type road noise but have either a cure for the wheel-hop or a nice SMG transmission to keep up with the other auto/SMG Germans.

We've got the Mustang Cobra, Jaguar S-Type-R, and Ford GT. Only the latter uses a lysholm (twin-screw) supercharger, the other two use an inefficient roots design.. Once both the Cobra and S-Type R switch over to the twin screw things will get very interesting. I hope Cadillac/GM do the same with their line of Eaton supercharged cars.

Everybody I talk to who would buy a V does a lot of research before buying their cars and all of them have asked me about the wheel hop issue. These guys are not the type of people who mod their cars and buy new ones every 18-24 months. The fact that you cannot safely get the power to the ground makes them shy away from making the purchase, but I like the fact that not everybody has them and I know they need to sell for Cadillac to keep producing these type of cars. I really think the ball is in thier court and once they fix little problems like that they will get more buyers. When magazines give you mediocre reviews the general masses go with them.

This is a great thread and I would hope Cadillac marketing is looking at it. The real truth here is that all of us that bought the V, for what ever reasons, and got a great but not perfect car because there is no such thing!. The irritating thing to me is that car companies put out products that are destin to fail in the hands of some of the future owners. The bean counters did their analysis on the prospective CTS-V buyers and most likely found that many would treat their $50k Caddy with respect. So perhaps this is why the diff is crap , and the rear end is a pogo stick. These are two simple issue to detect and the car was still released because GM is in the business of making money in the short term ( American companies are like this ).
However the Germans are not stopping either. The new C55 will outperform the V and it is $55k with much less depreciation. And look out for the next M3 with 400hp! And these cars do not have wheel hop !! GM needs to get the bugs ironed out cause this a battle of the best kind for us the consumer!!

Another justification for the V price tag is the price tag of the Z06.. If you think of a V as a four door Z06 with navigation, the price isn't bad at all!! We also have better brakes.. well umm more expensive brakes! If the price was set lower than the Z06, I'm sure it'd piss someone off.

Shin,

All the AMG line is doing is tuning motors with more and more HP and/or supercharging them to get ridiculous hp/tq numbers. It isn't exactly beating the US at their own game because we HAVE basically no cars on that level, with the possible exception of the Viper. But the V with $10k in work would have more hp than anything other than the V12 AMGs and would out-handle and out-perform them handily.
I agree the Americans really lack a price competitor to the "55" and "65" AMG lines. Maybe I should have expanded on this a little, what I meant by this is "mind ownership". A succesful brand "owns" a word in the mind so you think of that company's product when you hear the word. For instance:

Tissue = Kleenex
Inline Skates = Roller Blades
Safety = Volvo
Soda = Coca Cola

If Volvo started making cars that were more sports car than Safety cars it wouldn't be succesful as the consumers mind doesn't equate performance with Volvo. Likewise the longest time this was the case:

Prestige = Mercedes
Muscle = American V8

Now that Merceds is making cars that have more muscle than American cars (regardless of price), and getting tons of press on the subject, it decreases the American ability to own the word (and sell on) "power". Folks buy a Mustang SVT Cobra because of it's powerful motor, consumers would be more impressed if it "owned" power (the Mustang SVT's ownership of the word power is diluted by a 4-Door Merc that can beat it at the Qtr mile regardless of price). Now Germans are taking ownership of the word "power" in the consumer's mind. I think Mercedes looked at BMW's success with the M-Line and said they're selling on "three `P's" - Power, Performance and Prestige. Mercedes in trying to go up against the BMW M-Line has increased the Power and performance side of their product offering as they already define the word "prestige" in the Consumer's mind. (note: by expanding their line up to "power and performance" they dilute their ownerhips of "prestige")

The negative affect for the CTS-V, is that consumers looking for "power performance and prestige" are now thinking "Germany" and not "Cadillac", regardless of price, the Halo car drive publicity and dealer traffic. And that goes back to what I meant above that if Cadillac wants to compete in this segment they have to get consumers to think "Cadillac" when they hear Power, Performance and Prestige. The CTS-V is a great car for that, they just don't "own" those words yet so they don't see the traffic of consumers yet.


The STS-V and XLR-V will be very interesting to see. I hope that Cadillac doesn't compromise and comes out with very aggressive cars that still keep the sleeper-type road noise but have either a cure for the wheel-hop or a nice SMG transmission to keep up with the other auto/SMG Germans.
Well I feel the best way to beat the Germans is to invent a new Market. Trying to follow market share in the German performance car market puts Cadillac at a huge disadvantage by simply not even being German. Look at Jaguar they're suffering even more as "power performance and prestige" used to be the foundation of their company product line, but by letting BMW beat them in every category, Jaguar has done huge amounts of harm to their brand. Mercedes has dilluted their brand by moving waaaay down market (think A class) and is giving up the word "prestige". Lexus is swooping in trying to take that word from them with cars that compete only in luxury and not in performance. Conversly Infiniti is trying to take the market from BMW, since BMW has tried to move upscale and compete more against Mercedes, opening up the lower end of the performance luxury market which Infiniti has done a steller job with on the G35 and soon to be release M45.

Typically if you want to increase market share you narrow focus, decreasing focus as Mercedes has done decreases market share as you dilute the brand.

-Adam

The status of the Benz is still king. I traded in a CLK55 for the V and just as you reading this might think " REALLY? ", this is exactly the reaction that I got from my friends. The Caddy was a huge step down. Even I was a bit surprised by the reaction. What a great commercial for the V.
The Power wars were started by GM in the early 1990's with the Northstar V8. I remember those Dennis Franz commercials where he played a cop and gave tickets to the MB. owner for driving an underpowered car. So what happened? Well the formula was front drive and the HP max was hit with the STS. It has taken 10 years to get back to rear drive and the German cars are ahead of the game. However GM really dropped the ball on the CTS interior. Ergonomically it is the best I have ever driven but not even close to the Luxury of the Germans. The old STS had a better interior. The CTS is just too spartan even for an entry level car. Now the new STS is out and it looks great but seems to me that few will pay $60k plus for a Caddy. It will be interesting to see the next CTS-V . STS-V , 300C SRT8, GTO, etc from the American companies. Now I am just waiting for the response from the Japanese companies, are you out there???

The status of the Benz is still king. I traded in a CLK55 for the V and just as you reading this might think " REALLY? ", this is exactly the reaction that I got from my friends. The Caddy was a huge step down. Even I was a bit surprised by the reaction. What a great commercial for the V. I love the CLK55, but for me the value is a bit off since you can buy an E55 for the same money. the interior of the new CLK55 is first class in it's category though and I actually even like that interior more than the CL55!
The Power wars were started by GM in the early 1990's with the Northstar V8. I remember those Dennis Franz commercials where he played a cop and gave tickets to the MB. owner for driving an underpowered car. So what happened? Well the formula was front drive and the HP max was hit with the STS. It has taken 10 years to get back to rear drive and the German cars are ahead of the game.
GM IMOHO made a mistake with those ads. They were trying to create a new market category (good thing) by selling power on a FWD platform (bad thing). Mercedes might have had weak motors but they were built on RWD platforms giving them better overal performance. GM was selling the market on performance without owning it.
However GM really dropped the ball on the CTS interior. Ergonomically it is the best I have ever driven but not even close to the Luxury of the Germans. The old STS had a better interior. The CTS is just too spartan even for an entry level car. Now the new STS is out and it looks great but seems to me that few will pay $60k plus for a Caddy. It will be interesting to see the next CTS-V . STS-V , 300C SRT8, GTO, etc from the American companies. Mercedes really hit a home run with the 300C, and are really catching Ford and GM off guard.Now I am just waiting for the response from the Japanese companies, are you out there???
To be succesful Lexus doesn't have to. Lexus customers are looking for Luxury moreso than performance so it's not a big deal that they're behind there. Infiniti is (or was) adrift in anonymity with no real deffinition before the G35. They then decided to target BMW and have done a great job with the G35 and upcoming M45. The M45 will sport a 345hp motor and a $10K savings over a BMW 5-series. I doubt that M45 shoppers will cross-shop a CTS-V though since the M45 is more upscale and larger. Infiniti is going to make a G35 GTR though that will blow away the current CTS-V in 2007 (450+ HP AWD) but by then, we hope the CTS-V will ahve even more performance.

[QUOTE=Johnny_D]I am attending the Drive Summit in El Toro next weekend. How did you like it and how much seat time did you get in the V? :confused:

Got 1 lap of about a 1.5 mile loop. Cadillac guy shotgun. You roll up to a stop sign and start. Didn't know about the hop thing then so didn't push the start. The drive was great fun.Great acceleration and handling. Caught up to an XLR which started 10 or 15 seconds ahead. My prior post mentioned the questions I have had since. Make sure you go to the V line first as that got the longest line, although the new STS will have a long wait too.

As for the 300C, I really am not impressed with the interior. And I did not like the seats at all.

As for the V, I think the dash is fine, but the door panels is where I'm a bit underwhelmed.

As for the 300C, I really am not impressed with the interior. And I did not like the seats at all.

As for the V, I think the dash is fine, but the door panels is where I'm a bit underwhelmed.
At $20,000 more I would hope it has a better interior! :D

I think we can agree that the 300C raised the bar for $30K American cars (the styling doesn't apeal to me personally but I really respect what it is).

So what niche could Cadillac carve out with the V-series? That is what I am wondering.

Everyone talks about competitors to the V from BMW et al but people seem to forget that the V will evolve right along with them. The M3, while some see it as a competitor, is really not at 6-700 less pounds and 2 doors. If the GTO was lighter and had a 'luxury package' option it would be a competitor for the M3. Right now there isn't much out there that goes up against the M3 in terms of apples to apples. The V is sort of stuck between the M3 and the M5.

I don't think the future C55 will outperform the V in terms of overall track capabilities because the AMG Benzes - as far as I am aware - are not noted for their great prowess on road courses. AMG does upgrade the suspension from what I know but the cars are just not built like an M3 or V. And don't forget, if the car is $5-6k more that's the cost of enough upgrades to the V to make it far outperform the C55. So your comparison is not entirely accurate.

Find me any car that outhandles/performs the V with the same or higher stance (M3 and others are much lower) and costs within $10k with all the SAME options (how the interior is decorated is not what I mean, I am talking about actual options) and I will call you a liar. There isn't anything out there.

I have no idea what niche Cadillac can carve out there, other than the 'refined US muscle car' image, by putting down raw loud power in a luxury shell. For those who find the Benzes and BMWs boring, I think the V-series will attract a crowd, a lot of those on these boards have expressed pleasure at being able to buy an 'American car' again. Get some more Vs out there and push the press and I think a lot more people will flock to em. The V is a GREAT looking car, none of us can dispute that. Minor growing pains aside I think Cadillac has a winner here, they just have to keep it together and keep improving on the line.

Side Note: I think being able to work on the Vs with fairly cheap readily available parts will be a huge bonus also. Keeping the Vette motors in the V and making sure that LS1/2/6/7/etc tuners can update parts to fit each of their cars will be a huge advantage. Kids love to 'tune' their rides, as do muscle car heads and I am sure it will bring in some converts who can't really customize their 100k Benzes for fear of breaking something and being out a huge amount of cash.

So what niche could Cadillac carve out with the V-series? That is what I am wondering.
So is the press. As long as the car is seen as going up against $50K german cars that's what they're going to compare it with. GM neds to define and market a new segment if it wants to control and lead it.
Everyone talks about competitors to the V from BMW et al but people seem to forget that the V will evolve right along with them. The M3, while some see it as a competitor, is really not at 6-700 less pounds and 2 doors. If the GTO was lighter and had a 'luxury package' option it would be a competitor for the M3. Right now there isn't much out there that goes up against the M3 in terms of apples to apples. The V is sort of stuck between the M3 and the M5.Gm tries to market the V as an affordable M5, but I think thats a failure. Consumers are going to cross shop it with the C55, S4 and M3. It's an effort on GM's part trying to compare their car to a more expensive one and sell it on value.... (My opinion is) that's a good way of messing up the brand. Selling a car at a higher segment for half the costs implies it's a "poor man's M5", and someone buying a $50K car doesn't consider themselves a "value" shopper, rather a Luxury shopper buying prestige, power and performance.

You can sell a car on two ways value or benefit. (value= look what a great deal this is! benefit (not feature) = Driving this will get you "X")

FWIW I think BMW is guilty of this too. They're trying to market the 645 against the Mercedes CL500, but the reality is it cost the same and has similar dimensions to the CLK55. How can BMW market an "ultimate driving machine" when the Merc AMG runs rings around it.

We may disagree on this but I do feel the CTS-V competes against the M3, S4 and C55. Doors aside they all have a similar goal (power performance and luxury). An M3, while lacking the doors, is still very practical. And the press lumps these cars together all the time. I feel that the shoppers of this market do too for the same reason.

I don't think the future C55 will outperform the V in terms of overall track capabilities because the AMG Benzes - as far as I am aware - are not noted for their great prowess on road courses. AMG does upgrade the suspension from what I know but the cars are just not built like an M3 or V. And don't forget, if the car is $5-6k more that's the cost of enough upgrades to the V to make it far outperform the C55. So your comparison is not entirely accurate.
That's a marketing problem for the V. If you want performance you get the M3, if you want more luxury you get the C55. The CTS-V is hitting the middle of the market there.
Find me any car that outhandles/performs the V with the same or higher stance (M3 and others are much lower) and costs within $10k with all the SAME options (how the interior is decorated is not what I mean, I am talking about actual options) and I will call you a liar. There isn't anything out there.
I won't say it outperforms the CTS-V, but the S4 does have very similar stats and I see them compared all the time.
I have no idea what niche Cadillac can carve out there, other than the 'refined US muscle car' image, by putting down raw loud power in a luxury shell. For those who find the Benzes and BMWs boring, I think the V-series will attract a crowd, a lot of those on these boards have expressed pleasure at being able to buy an 'American car' again. Get some more Vs out there and push the press and I think a lot more people will flock to em. The V is a GREAT looking car, none of us can dispute that. Minor growing pains aside I think Cadillac has a winner here, they just have to keep it together and keep improving on the line.
Honestly I think the best thing that can happen to the V is the 300C SRT8 (425hp Hemi) (http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Chrysler.spy?artid=27527).

The best thing to happen to Coke was Pepsi, the best thing to happen to Mustang was the Camaro. A competitor in a new market niche you already own generates, buzz, interest and gets people talking about your product. When the Camaro left the scene, Mustang soaked up some sales for sure, but the Pony car market as a whole took a dive. GM's biggest fault with the Camaro was failure to promote the market (which increases the size of the market and how many units you can move). What's better, a growing market or growing market share? GM concentrated very hard on growing the Camaro's market share with more power and performance than the Mustang but the "Pony Car" Market as a whole has been in a steady decline since the early 80's.

Some point to advertising as a failure of the Camaro, but advertising doesn't sell cars, buzz does. Think about the B&B exhaust, did you buy it because you saw a banner ad, or did you buy it because folks onthe board were talking about it? People will buy on recomendation before they buy on a sales pitch.

Side Note: I think being able to work on the Vs with fairly cheap readily available parts will be a huge bonus also. Keeping the Vette motors in the V and making sure that LS1/2/6/7/etc tuners can update parts to fit each of their cars will be a huge advantage. Kids love to 'tune' their rides, as do muscle car heads and I am sure it will bring in some converts who can't really customize their 100k Benzes for fear of breaking something and being out a huge amount of cash.
That is an atraction, a Dinan intake costs $2K for an M5 and gives 10 RWHP, a CTS-V intake costs $199 and gives 10 or more RWHP.

If you look at the 300C, it's priced against the Pontiac Bonneville. Rather than chase the Market Chrysler decided to redefine the characterisitics of that market. It was a huge risk, but then again risk and opportunity are the same thing.

GM was cautious with the V, but I think they did a great job. I can't say it's really a failure on their part, but I think the V would have been more succesful if they had either focused the car more on the Luxury (and blown away the C55 as a benchmark) or focused on the performance (and blown away the M3). Mind you I'm talking succes in terms of units sold, I personally find the CTS-V to be a huge success by my own metrics, I'm just addressing the sales.

Lest you forget in the current market environment, GM was not going to get anything out the door requiring large investment. So more performance? No, they did the BEST with what they had in mostly sunk investment. More luxury? No, they did the BEST with what they had in the current CTS. Asking for anything more, and there would be no 1st V. And we are already approaching another leveling of performance, just how much better can GM make a car perform as we approach 500+ hp in the market?

You may look at it as a failure of sorts for GM to attack this segment, but this is their choice of how to earn worldwide respect... well, at least to get americans to take notice, then perhaps the world. It would have been interesting if the E39 M5 was still for sale, as I believe there would be some cross-shoping (I was an E39 M5 owner). But that is OLD news, since the new M5 goes much further upmarket for more bucks. However, if a higher-performance V comes out, you don't think some americans will cross shop at all? No, not the majority, but a significant minority.

Although university may teach wonderful things about market segmentation and so on, taking a stodgy old name and trying to reinvent it will take more than a degree. Trying to provide value is really GM's only choice when it comes to high-performance cars... they are SO far away on issues of prestige, service, and quality of materials.... BUT are now exceptional on performance, and near equivalent on reliability of many models.

Heh, just IMHO.

Lest you forget in the current market environment, GM was not going to get anything out the door requiring large investment. So more performance? No, they did the BEST with what they had in mostly sunk investment. More luxury? No, they did the BEST with what they had in the current CTS. Asking for anything more, and there would be no 1st V. And we are already approaching another leveling of performance, just how much better can GM make a car perform as we approach 500+ hp in the market?
Make no mistake I love the V and personly think it's a smashing success.... However I'm only a casual shopper inthe German Performance Car market so I'm probably not their target customer (or maybe I should be).

I understand and agree that GM had to make do with what was available and to that end I think they made a great car, but then I'm biased as I've owned 4 American V8 cars. The people I know with M3s and S4s said they're not that interested in the CTS-V, so that tells me that the CTS-V isn't making a big impact on the segment because it isn't doing one thing phenominally better than any other car in the segment.
You may look at it as a failure of sorts for GM to attack this segment, but this is their choice of how to earn worldwide respect... well, at least to get americans to take notice, then perhaps the world. It would have been interesting if the E39 M5 was still for sale, as I believe there would be some cross-shoping (I was an E39 M5 owner). But that is OLD news, since the new M5 goes much further upmarket for more bucks.[quote]
Well I too had an e39 M5 in my Garage for about a year but with the E60 on it's way out the potential for "old model" depreciation was too massive and it went on to greener pastures. That said it was a great car. (It appears the e39 M5 market took a $15K hit across the board going by Autotrader when the the new 5 hit the market).

The new 5 isn't moving too far upmarket, from what I've read it will be within $10K of the e39. the new 545 Sport appears to be upping the performance to fill the gap from my driving experience appears to offer 80% of the performance of the e39 M5.

[quote] However, if a higher-performance V comes out, you don't think some americans will cross shop at all? No, not the majority, but a significant minority.

Personally I'm biased toward performance as are most BMW M3 shoppers so more performance will give it a better stance against the Bravarians I believe. The issue then becomes brand confusion as Cadillac means more "Luxury" in the minds of most consumers, so a move of the CTS-V toward the C55 and luxuruy might make an even greater dent in the market (but conversly would make me less interested in it).

Although university may teach wonderful things about market segmentation and so on, taking a stodgy old name and trying to reinvent it will take more than a degree. Trying to provide value is really GM's only choice when it comes to high-performance cars... they are SO far away on issues of prestige, service, and quality of materials.... BUT are now exceptional on performance, and near equivalent on reliability of many models.

Heh, just IMHO.
Well I agree it's going to take time to reinvent Cadillac, but I think they're on the right track and am happy to see them add some deffinition to their intended brand image with cars like the CTS-V and STS.

-Adam,

My friend said it best last night. Until they make an auto/smg they will lose a large piece of the market.

GM would have sold 1/10th the Corvettes if they didn't have an automatic option. Look at BMW they offer the SMG for 2k, and every AMG Benz has automatic-only with no manual option. People who buy these cars tend to be older or at least more mature and are less interested in drag racing and powershifting than they are cruising and having the power on tap. The M5 has an auto option no? I am not familiar with the car, but I would guess it has at least an SMG option.

My friend said it best last night. Until they make an auto/smg they will lose a large piece of the market.

GM would have sold 1/10th the Corvettes if they didn't have an automatic option. Look at BMW they offer the SMG for 2k, and every AMG Benz has automatic-only with no manual option. People who buy these cars tend to be older or at least more mature and are less interested in drag racing and powershifting than they are cruising and having the power on tap. The M5 has an auto option no? I am not familiar with the car, but I would guess it has at least an SMG option.The old M5 was Manual only. The new one is SMG only in the states (and I think there is manual option for Europe....might have it backwards). Yea I agree with you, most 2002+ M3's I've seen are SMG. Keep in mind though that SMG is not an automatic being shifted manual like in the Benz, it's a real Clutch operated manual, so a lot of manual tranny afficianados consider it an upgrade to a manual rather than a replacement for an auto. Actually if you drive a BMW SMG expecting an Automatic, you're in for a rude awakening, it's not very smooth.

GM IMOHO needs to offer a 6-speed manual and a 6-Speed Automatic, I'm sure that would help move units for sure.

Agreed on the need for an automatic, although the STS-V will most certainly have that option. To be competitive, it will need to be a 5 or 6 spd auto (I believe GM actually manufacturs the 5spd to Merc, no?).

Not sure on the need for SMG. Yes, it's cool... yes, it can get you around a racetrack a few tenths quicker. But... it is more expensive, and tends to be crap in traffic (my experience, keep in mind). It would certainly help with image, however the majority of buyers may actually be happier with a paddle-driven auto. I actually think most SMG buyers are more excited about the concept than the implementation.

And yes, as Adam says, the E39 M5 was manual only. I think the diehards would prefer if the new M5 was available in manual with SMG as an option. Perhaps as power levels continue to rise, SMG gives the manufacturer ALOT more control over abuse of the car (bad downshifts, downshifts into the wrong gear, sidestepping the clutch, and so on). Shame, as a well driven manual through the curves is amazing.

6 speed auto will be available in '06 on several GM vehicles.
It will have the torque rating to handle the LS2 and higher torque motors.
6th gear will be .67 vs. .75 on the 5 speed.

On another note, Investors Business Daily called the CTS-V a "miss".
I do not subscribe to the mag so I couldn't read the article.

I don't pretend to have any skill at shifting the car, so SMG is perfect for me. Paddles if I want to be Colin McRae, and automatic mode if I want to put my arm around whatever inhabits the passenger seat. I agree it's not smooth like an automatic but I am willing to sacrifice that for the F1-quick shifts. When I drove an M3 SMG it was set at the 'smoothest' shift mode and it was not bad at all. A significant pause between gears but not rough by any means.

SMG is the way to go in almost any sports car in my opinion. Give the manual option sure, but I'll take an SMG any day of the week.

I started this thread 9/02 by saying that my dealer had 2 "V"s, one of which
had been there for over 2 months, the other about a month.
As of today they are now down to 1 "V". :)
The newer one got bought. The older one that has some test drive miles is still there.
Are they sttill moving where you guys are?

My dealer has 5 V's sitting in the lot for a while now. I guess it's the fact that I live in So Cal and manuals don't tend to sell very well due to traffic.

Where is this dealer?

There is a dealer near me in suburban New York which has had a 2004 V on the lot for ?6 months. This is the dealer where I got my V. They are willing to make a good price!!