: Clutch is slow to rebound during fast shifts?



smbstyle
06-26-10, 11:30 PM
Im pretty new to hydraulic clutches, but I've noticed this since I've had the car... basically, when I'm really getting on it, full throttle from 2nd to 3rd gear when I shift very fast I notice that the clutch is a little slow to come back up, and doesnt come back up as fast as my foot does, and it makes the same sound as the e-brake does when it is released. Is this normal with hydraulic clutches and the cts-v, or do I need to get this looked at?

smbstyle
06-27-10, 12:55 AM
Im pretty new to hydraulic clutches, but I've noticed this since I've had the car... basically, when I'm really getting on it, full throttle from 2nd to 3rd gear when I shift very fast I notice that the clutch is a little slow to come back up, and doesnt come back up as fast as my foot does, and it makes the same sound as the e-brake does when it is released. Is this normal with hydraulic clutches and the cts-v, or do I need to get this looked at?


also, just to give more info to rule out other issues, the clutch has plenty of pressure, it does not stick at all, seems to do it more on the 2-3 shift and not really noticeable on 1-2 and 3-4. just compared to the cable clutch cars I've driven seems a little slower to come back up...

UnsafeAtAnySpd
06-27-10, 01:50 AM
Not to jack your thread, but instead of creating another I thought I would add onto yours...
I'm having clutch pedal issues as well. On turns the pedal will drop to the floor. I have to pull it back up with my toe. It has been recently bled (about 500 miles ago). Thoughts on this? I think that's a sign of crankwalk in DSMs.

darkman
06-27-10, 09:38 AM
The checklist in the service manual for Clutch Pedal Spongy Low Pedal Effort, such that pedal may feel spongy, or requires very little effort to operate, is paraphrased as follows:
1. Air in Hydraulic System- Bleed the system.
2. Contaminated hydraulic fluid- Inspect the clutch hydraulic fluid for contamination of moisture. Inspect reservoir cap for being faulty if moisture is present. Inspect the clutch hydraulic fluid for dirt or debris. Flush and bleed the hydraulic system if the above dirt or debris contamination is found.
3. Master cylinder fluid level low- Inspect for leakage in the master cylinder, hose connections, and clutch actuator. Repair or replace faulty components.
4. Incomplete pedal return-Inspect pedal for full return. Clear obstacles that may interfere with pedal operation. Replace clutch pedal return spring. Adjust clutch pedal position switch.
5. Clutch mounting bolts loose or broken- Remove broken bolts. Replace broken or loose bolts and tighten.
6. Clutch pressure plate not adjusted-Adjust clutch pressure plate.
7. Release bearing worn or damaged-Replace release bearing.
8. Clutch incorrectly installed=Replace clutch assembly.

maxspeed96ct
06-27-10, 10:26 AM
I had the same, issue .

No matter how fast I released my foot the pedal would pop up slow, and stick at the bottom for a sec.

My issue was I had a small leak on the rubber line that goes from the master to the qwk connect.

(My leak was due to me drilling the line)

But wipe down your fluid lines and check for leaks.

G/Luck.

smbstyle
06-27-10, 12:21 PM
See, it doesnt stick at the bottom at all, it just doesnt seem to pop back up as fast as my other cars with cable clutches (03 Cobra for example) and when I speed shift, I mean VERY fast, it makes the sound that the parking brake does when you release it and it returns to the top.

maxspeed96ct
06-27-10, 12:28 PM
See, it doesnt stick at the bottom at all, it just doesnt seem to pop back up as fast as my other cars with cable clutches (03 Cobra for example) and when I speed shift, I mean VERY fast, it makes the sound that the parking brake does when you release it and it returns to the top.

Yes thats kind of what I had. Its tough to explain. If you shift normal you wouldnt notice anything wrong. but if you bang gears/ race it feels like the clutch is just slow to respond.

Check out what I suggested and looks for leaks and etc.

If not you may need a new slave or your clutch pressure plate is just shot.

smbstyle
06-27-10, 12:32 PM
Yes thats kind of what I had. Its tough to explain. If you shift normal you wouldnt notice anything wrong. but if you bang gears/ race it feels like the clutch is just slow to respond.

Check out what I suggested and looks for leaks and etc.

If not you may need a new slave or your clutch pressure plate is just shot.

no leaks found, however i had trouble tracing where the line goes after it dissapears behind the coolant reservoir. I checked the fluid and it is a little bit above the min. line, and there was no fluid found at all from underneath the car to indicate a leak.

any good writeups on how to bleed the clutch, or can someone tell me where the bleeder screw is located?

darkman
06-27-10, 12:53 PM
The symptoms is this thread suggest that the clutch pedal spring or pedal bushings may be a factor.

Paraphrased from the Service Manual.(7-1485)
1. Fill the clutch fluid reservoir.
2. Stroke the clutch pedal from top to down position at least 15 times.
3. With the clutch pedal depressed, open the concentric slave cylinder bleeder valve to release trapped air. The bleeder valve is located on the bell housing.
4. Close the bleeder valve and slowly return the clutch pedal to the up stop.
5. Open the bleeder valve and slowly depress the clutch pedal from the top to fully depressed until the fluid escapes through the bleeder.
6. Close the bleeder valve.
7. Return the clutch pedal to the up position.
8. Depress the clutch pedal. (top to down)
9. Open the bleeder valve and allow air bubbles to escape.
10. Close the bleeder valve.
Keep checking the fluid reservoir and refill between steps.
11. Repeat steps 7-10 until the fluid without bubbles escapes through the bleeder valve.

This can be made much earsier with Motive Power Bleeder.



http://www.jegs.com/p/Motive-Products/Motive-Products-Brake-Power-Bleeders/753543/10002/-1?sendroicid=bbef8492-2d00-41d6-b158-38db0de2603c&sendroiad=4697167931&sendroikwd=Motive+power+bleeder&gclid=COqM7fbPwKICFQLEsgodBX-O6g

smbstyle
06-27-10, 01:00 PM
The symptoms is this thread suggest that the clutch pedal spring or pedal bushings may be a factor.

Paraphrased from the Service Manual.(7-1485)
1. Fill the clutch fluid reservoir.
2. Stroke the clutch pedal from top to down position at least 15 times.
3. With the clutch pedal depressed, open the concentric slave cylinder bleeder valve to release trapped air. The bleeder valve is located on the bell housing.
4. Close the bleeder valve and slowly return the clutch pedal to the up stop.
5. Open the bleeder valve and slowly depress the clutch pedal from the top to fully depressed until the fluid escapes through the bleeder.
6. Close the bleeder valve.
7. Return the clutch pedal to the up position.
8. Depress the clutch pedal. (top to down)
9. Open the bleeder valve and allow air bubbles to escape.
10. Close the bleeder valve.
Keep checking the fluid reservoir and refill between steps.
11. Repeat steps 7-10 until the fluid without bubbles escapes through the bleeder valve.

This can be made much earsier with Motive Power Bleeder.



http://www.jegs.com/p/Motive-Products/Motive-Products-Brake-Power-Bleeders/753543/10002/-1?sendroicid=bbef8492-2d00-41d6-b158-38db0de2603c&sendroiad=4697167931&sendroikwd=Motive+power+bleeder&gclid=COqM7fbPwKICFQLEsgodBX-O6g

awesome, thanks.

any way that I can determine or narrow it down if it is the spring/bushing?

I cant seem to find the bleeder valve? can anyone give me some hints on where it is located? any pics would be helpful.

darkman
06-27-10, 01:18 PM
awesome, thanks.

any way that I can determine or narrow it down if it is the spring/bushing?

I cant seem to find the bleeder valve? can anyone give me some hints on where it is located? any pics would be helpful.

Visual inspection on the spring and bushings - the spring has been known to break and fall off. Just check whether the pedal action is smooth and quiet or not when pushing it in and out with your hand.

I can't help you on the bleeder location much - I always have my dealer do it because it is easy to mess up that bleeder which requires pulling the bell housing to fix.

smbstyle
06-27-10, 01:37 PM
Visual inspection on the spring and bushings - the spring has been known to break and fall off. Just check whether the pedal action is smooth and quiet or not when pushing it in and out with your hand.

I can't help you on the bleeder location much - I always have my dealer do it because it is easy to mess up that bleeder which requires pulling the bell housing to fix.

Yep, it is smooth and quiet. I honestly think I might just be shifting too fast, because there are no leaks whatsoever, plenty of pressure (even hard for me to push the pedal in with my hand), i topped up the fluid and it only took a teaspoon of DOT3 fluid, and the pedal is dead quiet (unless you side-step it, which is basically the sound it makes when it rebounds and returns to the top position).

I'll take a video of it today that way you can see and hear exactly what is happening, and upload it to youtube.

Thanks all for the input!!

smbstyle
06-27-10, 02:11 PM
Here is the noise that I am hearing when I am speed shifting... does this clutch rebound seem normal or is this slow?

YouTube- CTS-V Clutch Rebound


Here is an acceleration video I made, you can kind of hear the sound from the above video during shifts...

YouTube- CTS-V acceleration

darkman
06-27-10, 02:21 PM
How many miles do you have on that clutch?

smbstyle
06-27-10, 02:28 PM
How many miles do you have on that clutch?

as far as i know it is the original clutch, 52k miles on it. I just purchased the car from a Cadillac dealer, one previous owner, some older doctor...

darkman
06-27-10, 02:41 PM
See attached

smbstyle
06-27-10, 02:47 PM
See attached

hm, interesting... but the rebound is the same at high speeds as it is when the car is idling or turned off, as seen in the two videos

maxspeed96ct
06-27-10, 06:11 PM
no leaks found, however i had trouble tracing where the line goes after it dissapears behind the coolant reservoir. I checked the fluid and it is a little bit above the min. line, and there was no fluid found at all from underneath the car to indicate a leak.

any good writeups on how to bleed the clutch, or can someone tell me where the bleeder screw is located?

mine wasnt leaking bad enough to see a drip. But I ran a paper towel down the line and it was soaked...


Btw my pedal made the same type of noise. Its a hydrolic problem. either your slave is shot or you have a leak.
G/luck

smbstyle
06-27-10, 10:08 PM
mine wasnt leaking bad enough to see a drip. But I ran a paper towel down the line and it was soaked...


Btw my pedal made the same type of noise. Its a hydrolic problem. either your slave is shot or you have a leak.
G/luck

i traced it and ran a paper towel along it... bone dry.

guess it's the slave cylinder. how would I know its the slave and not the master cylinder?

smbstyle
06-27-10, 10:16 PM
if it's the slave cylinder, the trans has to be dropped, correct?

if so, I'll throw in a Monster clutch at the same time... gah within 2 weeks already stuff is going bad. not a good sign.

also heard from another member that it could be the pressure plate, which makes sense as well...

ewill3rd
06-28-10, 07:17 AM
The clutch pedal return springs on these break a lot, however, they don't really do anything.
It may be broken but as I said, that is probably the least important factor.
These LS clutches really rely on the slave to push back, which means the pressure plate has to push first.
Usually the pressure plate is the largest factor. Even on the older ones during high rpm shifts sometimes had an issue with the pedal not coming back at all.

I mean I wouldn't condemn it out of the gate, fluid should be your #1 priority but once that is done you are going to have to pull the trans.
It is doubtful you will see anything either once you get it apart. I wouldn't say it should need done because of the mileage, but those things do a lot of hard work and over time sometimes the pressure plate just can't handle it.
There are a few good clutch options out there to consider.

The thud may be happening because a stop fell off, they usually put a rubber bumper on the bracket, it is hard to tell from the video but if the bumper is there it could be a combination of a broken spring and a weakening pressure plate.
Pulling the transmission on those is pretty easy actually.

PISNUOFF
06-28-10, 08:35 AM
Don't forget to get a remote bleeder if you end up pulling the trans.

smbstyle
06-28-10, 12:34 PM
just an update; i took it to the dealer and they did a complete fluid flush and bleeding of the system. the tech said there was no air at all in the system. I've got fresh clear fluid in there now, and am still noticing that sound when it rebounds.

thanks, I will check to see if there is a little rubber stop or not on the bracket.

In the video though, the car is not slow at all to shift as you can see me rowing through the gears quickly, and theres no hesitation or rpm hanging because the clutch isnt returning, i think it is just the noise of that clutch returning that is getting to me...

I'm probably going to wait on the clutch a bit... and do Longtubes, h/f cats, monster clutch/flywheel/pp kit w/ a slave cylinder, remote bleeder and replace the master cylinder and clutch spring as well just to be safe...

smbstyle
06-28-10, 01:37 PM
The clutch pedal return springs on these break a lot, however, they don't really do anything.
It may be broken but as I said, that is probably the least important factor.
These LS clutches really rely on the slave to push back, which means the pressure plate has to push first.
Usually the pressure plate is the largest factor. Even on the older ones during high rpm shifts sometimes had an issue with the pedal not coming back at all.

I mean I wouldn't condemn it out of the gate, fluid should be your #1 priority but once that is done you are going to have to pull the trans.
It is doubtful you will see anything either once you get it apart. I wouldn't say it should need done because of the mileage, but those things do a lot of hard work and over time sometimes the pressure plate just can't handle it.
There are a few good clutch options out there to consider.

The thud may be happening because a stop fell off, they usually put a rubber bumper on the bracket, it is hard to tell from the video but if the bumper is there it could be a combination of a broken spring and a weakening pressure plate.
Pulling the transmission on those is pretty easy actually.

I think you might be onto something...

just for giggles, I got into my friends integra which is manual and tried the same thing, releasing the clutch very fast, and it releases just as fast as minee does, so i'm not thinking it is a pressure issue, i think it is just the noise that is catching me off gaurd.

so i get into the footwell of the V, and look up at the clutch pedal to see what it could be impacting upon return, and notice that there is a silver metal bar that comes across, which is where the clutch pedal returns to and hits. I took a piece of duct tape, folded it over a few times and put it in between the pedal and the bar, and the noise was a lot lot less, to the point where I probably wouldnt notice it when speed shifting... then I looked at the pedal itself and I see a rubber stop looking thing facing the opposite way. Could this be that rubber stop you were talking about? If so, I think someone put it on backwards and that is the reason I'm hearing that loud noise when shifting, and I'll just need to turn it around...

I'd like someone else to confirm this for me before I do. If so, at least I got a clutch fluid flush out of all of this.

In the first pic you can see that metal bar going across horizontally where the clutch pedal will rest upon when it returns.

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/46908/2117237820086116169S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2117237820086116169eeQdBO)


In the second pic you can see that little rubber "u-shaped" stop.

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/21398/2132968110086116169S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2132968110086116169XlpswZ)

PISNUOFF
06-28-10, 02:51 PM
Haha. He should be onto something. He's a master technician for THE Cadillac dealer.

smbstyle
06-28-10, 03:58 PM
Haha. He should be onto something. He's a master technician for THE Cadillac dealer.

haha, yeah it took me a minute to put his location and "Lindsay Cadillac of Alexandria" together...

btw, that little rubber stop is facing in the right direction; it buffers the clutch pedal between the horizontal bracket for when the clutch is all the way to the floor.... so I wonder where the other rubber bumper goes, and if anyone can tell me the part number I'll buy you a beer. I tried calling Lindsay Cadillac and he couldnt find anything in the illustration for a rubber bumper on the bracket...

maxspeed96ct
06-28-10, 08:05 PM
haha, yeah it took me a minute to put his location and "Lindsay Cadillac of Alexandria" together...

btw, that little rubber stop is facing in the right direction; it buffers the clutch pedal between the horizontal bracket for when the clutch is all the way to the floor.... so I wonder where the other rubber bumper goes, and if anyone can tell me the part number I'll buy you a beer. I tried calling Lindsay Cadillac and he couldnt find anything in the illustration for a rubber bumper on the bracket...

It has nothing to do with the mechanical as much as you think I would. On a cable clutch yes.

On a hydroulic clutch no.

Did you try just bleeding it ?

ewill3rd
06-28-10, 08:25 PM
I'd have to get in and look at one, it was just an idea.
It looks from the picture like someone has been up in there, I see a couple of retainers out of position for the harness.
Kind of tired today, bump this tomorrow, I'll have one in the air and I can take a peek.

smbstyle
06-28-10, 08:44 PM
It has nothing to do with the mechanical as much as you think I would. On a cable clutch yes.

On a hydroulic clutch no.

Did you try just bleeding it ?

I know that those rubber bumpers dont have much of a mechanical purpose at all, but that is what I am saying, the SOUND of the metal to metal when it returns when I am speed shifting is what I think is throwing me off.

I had the entire system completely flushed and bled, there was no air in the system and no contaminents or particles...

Im about 99% sure it is just the sound that is making me feel like it it slow to rebound... I'd love to go drive another CTS-V and see how it compares.

smbstyle
06-28-10, 08:49 PM
I'd have to get in and look at one, it was just an idea.
It looks from the picture like someone has been up in there, I see a couple of retainers out of position for the harness.
Kind of tired today, bump this tomorrow, I'll have one in the air and I can take a peek.

Thanks! Keep me updated.

smbstyle
07-03-10, 11:00 PM
Ok, can anyone do me a huge favor and look up where the clutch pedal contacts that horizontal metal piece and see if there is anything rubber on there that buffers the clutch pedal from hitting the metal directly? almost like a rubber bumper or something??? Thanks!!