: So.... Cam went in this week... And I need a little help.



Jon
06-25-10, 12:40 AM
222/226 .597”/.598” 115LSA +3 advance
Comp EPS/EPS lobes

Dyno'ed 360rwhp/348tq before the cam... And after.... 365/346. Both on dynojets. Now, I knew not to expect miracles... But this is pretty sad. The tuner says the car is having problems getting air and wants me to do a CAI. I don't mind spending the $ but I want to make sure it'll help. I've seen the threads where CAI doesn't do anything so I've never bothered with it.

They did a wideband tune on it. The tuner has not seen the car in person. He was working off logs sent from the shop.

Also having a high idling problem. When I come to a stop, the RPMs will sit at 1100 and then drop to about 800. When I'm driving, it's higher than normal and when I let off the gas, the car does not slow down. It's like I'm on cruise control. I can downshift from 4th to 3rd, and it'll sit in 3rd at 3000rpms without slowing down at all.

It's actually quite troubling in traffic since the car will not slow down without using the brakes, and in some cases accelerates. In 2nd at 25km/h the car will slowly accelerate up to 30. When I push the clutch it the RPMs slowly drop to 1500rpm. When driving at 50km/h and up, if I put the car in neutral and release the clutch the RPMs climb to 3000.

It's at the point now where I will not drive the car because I have to drag my brakes everywhere to avoid driving into the car in front of me.

Any pointers?

MauiV
06-25-10, 01:54 AM
Dyno tune it

heavymetals
06-25-10, 02:43 AM
Your tune is not happening.

Get your stock tune reloaded and I bet your better off.

Zo6PwRd
06-25-10, 03:15 AM
+1 dyno tunes are a must for cammed cars IMO, driveability can be hard to tune especially going off logs. My tuner tune dmine on the dyno, took it for a test drive, threw it back on the dyno, and drove it again.....now it idles at 950 all the time, no bucking....surging or anything. I picked up 35rwhp from my cam but its bigger then yours.

And grab a K&N CAI off ebay for 260 shipped. I gained 10rwhp from mine. Ask sojersey05V, he had the same mods....kooks long tubes 1 7/8 and i put down 365rwhp with my K&N CAI......without the CAI on his car and just the long tubes he put down 355rwhp. Same dyno, same tuner. The tuner also has just a cone filter on the end of his stock tube and picked up 8rwhp.


with your cam BTW, your gonna make all your power way up top. itll prolly pull to 6800 easy and still be climbing.

thebigjimsho
06-25-10, 07:04 AM
Mod hell. Hope you get it fixed up correctly, Jon...

darkman
06-25-10, 08:05 AM
222/226 .597”/.598” 115LSA +3 advance
Comp EPS/EPS lobes

Dyno'ed 360rwhp/348tq before the cam... And after.... 365/346. Both on dynojets. Now, I knew not to expect miracles... But this is pretty sad. The tuner says the car is having problems getting air and wants me to do a CAI. I don't mind spending the $ but I want to make sure it'll help. I've seen the threads where CAI doesn't do anything so I've never bothered with it.

They did a wideband tune on it. The tuner has not seen the car in person. He was working off logs sent from the shop.

Also having a high idling problem. When I come to a stop, the RPMs will sit at 1100 and then drop to about 800. When I'm driving, it's higher than normal and when I let off the gas, the car does not slow down. It's like I'm on cruise control. I can downshift from 4th to 3rd, and it'll sit in 3rd at 3000rpms without slowing down at all.

It's actually quite troubling in traffic since the car will not slow down without using the brakes, and in some cases accelerates. In 2nd at 25km/h the car will slowly accelerate up to 30. When I push the clutch it the RPMs slowly drop to 1500rpm. When driving at 50km/h and up, if I put the car in neutral and release the clutch the RPMs climb to 3000.

It's at the point now where I will not drive the car because I have to drag my brakes everywhere to avoid driving into the car in front of me.

Any pointers?

I have a similar cam and have done dyno testing with PatrickG doing the tuning. Based on that experience, my educated guess is:

1. Your non-WOT tune needs work. Properly done you should not even notice the cam in terms of behavior other than a mild shimmer at idle, and the fact that it will rev well past 6.5k rpm.

2. The air limitation is not the stock intake, which will flow more than the stock 78mm throttle body can handle. The tube that connects your 85mm MAF to your 78mm throttle body is ugly but will outflow either the MAF or the TB.

3. If the horesepower curve goes flat from 5.5k up to redline the limitation is the 78mm throttle body.

4. Even with the 78mm throttle boy you should get at least 380 hp (20 gain) and a little over 390 is possible. A 90mm TB (& intake) will give you a 15hp pop.

Jon
06-25-10, 11:00 AM
Thanks guys. I was under the impression I was getting a dyno tune, but that somehow changed.

And this is why my tuner thinks it needs an intake.

"When the car goes WOT the map reading is 98kpa-but by the end of the pull that reading falls to 93kpa-which means at WOT-your car is pulling vacuum."

I also have a ported TB in there from a LS1 C5. Could that be messing things up?

Twitch
06-25-10, 11:35 AM
I'd go with what evryone is saying about the top end. But your idle problems are all in the tune. If you tuner knows what he's doing he should be able to take care of that. But they need to do a street log first. Who knows, they might have just done a WOT tune and called it a day. Hope it didn't cost you too much.

Tony

PISNUOFF
06-25-10, 11:39 AM
That drop in MAP is not abnormal. Even with a larger intake you will still have that. Mine drops off and I have a Lingenfelter CAI with a 4" aluminum tube.

The ported TB will have everything to do with the hanging throttle if it wasn't ported properly and may take a ton of work to tuned it out from an experienced tuner. It is allowing a different amount of air to enter the motor when the butterfly is closed because they ported too far into it. Did you have that on there prior to installing the cam?

You still need a proper dyno tune, from a different tuner.

Jon
06-25-10, 12:19 PM
I'd go with what evryone is saying about the top end. But your idle problems are all in the tune. If you tuner knows what he's doing he should be able to take care of that. But they need to do a street log first. Who knows, they might have just done a WOT tune and called it a day. Hope it didn't cost you too much.

Tony

They started with street logs I believe.



That drop in MAP is not abnormal. Even with a larger intake you will still have that. Mine drops off and I have a Lingenfelter CAI with a 4" aluminum tube.

The ported TB will have everything to do with the hanging throttle if it wasn't ported properly and may take a ton of work to tuned it out from an experienced tuner. It is allowing a different amount of air to enter the motor when the butterfly is closed because they ported too far into it. Did you have that on there prior to installing the cam?

You still need a proper dyno tune, from a different tuner.


I did not have the ported TB on prior to the cam... The tuner is very experienced when it comes to Vettes, and is willing to work with me to get everything corrected. I think I'll just get the CAI and then have him tune it on the rollers.

SoCA04V
06-25-10, 01:22 PM
I have the same cam as you, and I only dynoed 366/355 with a K&N and Muffler delete. I was really unimpressed with my numbers, but the car's drivability is spot on and it pulls pretty decent. I just added high flow cats, but haven't re-dynoed to see if it helped.

trukk
06-25-10, 04:42 PM
Jon,

I don't recall if you have headers or not. If not, that is gonna be part of your issue as well. It may breath better, but if it can't expell, you won't see the gains you are looking for.


You might think it's a joke, but that squeeze tube is the #1 restriction in the intake tract, followed by the TB (which you've already taken care of), then the filter housing, followed by the actual intake, then the MAF.

Swap out the squeeze tube, and bet you see a pretty big jump. It's not a huge difference on a bolt on car, but makes a pretty big change with a cam'd car.

I'd also consider swapping out the filter with a CAI, if you already have the headers. I make 412 on a *very* stingy dyno, only going up to 6200 (I readline at 6700, and it was still pulling HARD and climbing on my pulls).

Also, get a real dyno tune.

-Chris

SoCA04V
06-25-10, 04:59 PM
I can't speak for the OP, but I had my cam spec'd specifically to run stock manifolds. I wonder if there would be a negative effect by now running headers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jon
06-25-10, 06:01 PM
Jon,

I don't recall if you have headers or not. If not, that is gonna be part of your issue as well. It may breath better, but if it can't expell, you won't see the gains you are looking for.


You might think it's a joke, but that squeeze tube is the #1 restriction in the intake tract, followed by the TB (which you've already taken care of), then the filter housing, followed by the actual intake, then the MAF.

Swap out the squeeze tube, and bet you see a pretty big jump. It's not a huge difference on a bolt on car, but makes a pretty big change with a cam'd car.

I'd also consider swapping out the filter with a CAI, if you already have the headers. I make 412 on a *very* stingy dyno, only going up to 6200 (I readline at 6700, and it was still pulling HARD and climbing on my pulls).

Also, get a real dyno tune.

-Chris

Hi Chris

I have the B&B long tubes with high flow cats. So I talked to the tuner again. I'm going to get the K&N CAI and install it. Once I do that, I'll bring the car to him. We will work out the driveability issues, do a road tune, then finish up tuning on the dyno. Hope all goes well....

maxspeed96ct
06-25-10, 06:07 PM
+1 for a dyno tune, mail orders suck. When you have a cam they are even worse.

Also I think the stock intake on our car flows very well. I do have a K&N but its mostly for sound and appearance.

G/luck bro

darkman
06-25-10, 06:12 PM
You might think it's a joke, but that squeeze tube is the #1 restriction in the intake tract, followed by the TB (which you've already taken care of), then the filter housing, followed by the actual intake, then the MAF.

Swap out the squeeze tube, and bet you see a pretty big jump. It's not a huge difference on a bolt on car, but makes a pretty big change with a cam'd car.

On this point Chris, my experience is different than yours. I spent several hours one day on a Mustang dyno in Victoria, Texas with Patrick G doing the tuning "on the fly" while trying different intake configurations. At the end of the day we could not obtain any gain using different tubes (an FIPK tubing and a straight 4") in place of that "squeeze tube." We ultimately concluded that the primary restriction had to be the throttle body. Later I was able to pickup 15 hp with a 90mm TB. I have not retested yet to see if with the 90mm TB the squeeze tube is now a problem.

Michael

rand49er
06-25-10, 10:40 PM
Jon, I know you don't want to hear this, but I've got three words for you:

Get a Maggie.



See? I told you. :stirpot:



EDIT: If you come to the Dream Cruise again this year, we'll have to "go for a ride."

Jon
06-26-10, 05:35 PM
Jon, I know you don't want to hear this, but I've got three words for you:

Get a Maggie.



See? I told you. :stirpot:



EDIT: If you come to the Dream Cruise again this year, we'll have to "go for a ride."

I was gonna do the Procharger for the longest time but decided against it for 2 reasons.

1. Heat soak as I track the car.
2. I want the car to appear stock in case crap happens. Insurance company does not allow mods.

darkman
06-26-10, 05:57 PM
I want the car to appear stock in case shit happens. Insurance company does not allow mods.

Is that why you have a "stealthy" exhaust?

Jon
06-26-10, 06:25 PM
Is that why you have a "stealthy" exhaust?

The exhaust I can easily pull off myself or if the car is fubared they'll never know...

rand49er
06-26-10, 08:50 PM
What will the insurance company say?

Jon
06-26-10, 11:33 PM
What will the insurance company say?

They'll tell you they do not insure modified vehicles and that is their policy.