: engine swap



86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 05:25 PM
Hello forums!! It has been awhile since I have posted on here but I have been reading and searching and have not really come across a complete thread on this subject, I've read lots of speculation here and other forums but no one to have done it so if I am mistaken and some one knows of someone who has done this please let me know of them.

I have an 86 fleet wood brougham d elegance with the tiny little 307y engine with less horsepower and torque then my friends Honda accord....im sad....However my fiancées brother had a 455 Oldsmobile with a spun rod bearing that he gave me for free so it needs new bearings at least im looking at a master rebuild kit from enginekits.com and not sure if i want to buy a whole kit or piece my own together to make more of what i want. What I have read has told me that the 307 350 and up Oldsmobile engines all share the same engine mount placement and that the engine should drop right into place and bolt to my existing mounts and transmission (200-4r) Can anyone confirm or deny the truth of this?

The 86 as im sure you all know was partially computer controlled and im not going to run emissions because they aren't required where im at in Oregon what kind of computer trouble am I looking at getting myself into(its going to be a carbed setup its a quadra puke on the 455 right now) I also know the 200-4r has a TV cable that needs to be mounted and set up right is their a company that makes a bracket kit for the 455 that makes this sit correctly so i dont burn my 2004r out before I can put a new tranny in the car?

im trying to do this swap on around 2 thousand dollars so im trying to avoid machine work if possible since finding a shop that is reasonably priced around here is ridiculous. Another questsion im having is my fuel gauge will only work intermittently and alot of the times pegs out on full and will back down eventualy but both it and my spedo have alot of bounce and play in them how can I correct these issues?

Last but not least my windsheild wipers dont like to shut off once they are turned on do I just need a new switch in the dash or is their more to it then that? I am humbled by everyones knowledge and help on this website and I thank you all greatly for your input.:rant2::worship::worship::rant2::alchi::high five:

Here is a picture of the car and of under the hood before I start the swap

Here is under the hood
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs354.snc3/29310_120627644646041_100000964175123_103987_29129 16_n.jpg

I need more pics but car body is straight all over little surface rust in trunk lip(under lid) and top of rear quater panel both spots the size of a quater

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs334.snc3/29310_120627997979339_100000964175123_103989_40222 38_n.jpg

A closer look at the drivers side I will get more pics up soon and start a build thread for the engine swap!

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs334.snc3/29310_120628007979338_100000964175123_103990_39353 92_n.jpg

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 05:30 PM
I am also going to be pulling out the air ride compressor and air lines and putting a strut master conversion kit in their in its place so I dont have to deal with the hassle air ride can cause and to give it a little more sporty handling feel my goal in the end is a hotrod Cadillac I could race on the weekends lol. :thumbsup:

outsider
06-23-10, 05:47 PM
I can tell you that the 200r4 tranny will not work for long with that engine. I was told by other posters to not even consider using it with an olds 350 swap!

I can also tell you a little about the wiper problems as my 87 has the same problems...

I've switched out the wiper switch and it helped a little but not much...Someone in another post has said that the true solution is to replace the relay for the wipers, someone else said the whole pump/motor for the wipers. Not sure which is truest, I'd assume it depends on your particular problem and you would have to try a few things until you get the right one?

by the way, nice looking car :)

Stingroo
06-23-10, 05:48 PM
It can work, but you'd best DEFINITELY invest in a high performance rebuild. Lots of Grand Nationals run around with 200-R4's and survive just fine. In fact, my dad had a 10 second one.

It can be done, and I wish you the best of luck. :)

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 06:15 PM
Thanks outsider and sting I was thinking relay too but with the money im spending on the engine im not gonna have a hole lot left for the misc stuff thats wrong like the wipers i will start with relay and go from their. I dont expect the 200-4r too last me that long just around 4 or 5 months(without me beating on it
) is all im hoping to get out of it then im gonna buy a stage 2 200-4r tranny from raptor transmission and do some gear changes in the rear end if not swap out to a bigger rear with posi and run disc brakes. Thanks for the compliment im happy with the condition of the body other then the aforementioned spots its the original paint and still no peeling and it's more glossy then my girls 2000 toyota echo or her 94 jeep :) Plus I have a BIG factory sunroof :-D

csbuckn
06-23-10, 07:26 PM
Whats all in the rebuild kit you're looking at?

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 07:41 PM
https://shop.enginekits.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=237 there is the link to the kit im gonna do the molly rings high volume oil pump i wanna find a double roller chain set and a more radical cam then the stock im trying to get ahold of the website now and see if they would do a more radical cam in the kit. and i wanna run the 9.75 compression pistons.

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 07:57 PM
Just got ahold of the engine kit place and he said they will swap in a more radical cam and add the springs and retainers I need also said he would try and find a double roller for the 455 but he didnt think they made one :/ gonna call auto parts stores around here and see what they tell me about a double roller.....any ideas on what kind of cam specs I would need to be lookin for? I want to retain enough vacuum that I dont have to run an electric pump for my brakes but I want it radical enough you notice the idle difference with good performance gains but still reliable enough to drive myself 2 kids and wife around. Also does anyone know where I can find headers that will fit my car on the 455? or am i gonna have to run shorty block huggers?

Stingroo
06-23-10, 08:17 PM
G-body headers are used for the Broughams I hear, but with the 455, I have nooooo clue.

csbuckn
06-23-10, 08:41 PM
The 200r4 tranny will not hold up against what you want to do, better find a 350 or 400, maybe the 700 w/adapter. You will need a cam with better torque specs rather than hp because your car is so heavy. You wont have to worry about vacuum because its 455 cubes, small blocks have a bigger problem with that. Impala SS suspension parts are a direct bolt in for your car so that will take care of your ride control.

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 10:32 PM
everything I have read an been told about trannys is if I want a stock tranny to last I want to run a 400 but the 200-4r when built is strong enough to run behind what im doing. that the downfall to 200-4r's is weak internal components and that 700-r4's are a weak design in general and would burn out much faster if I have money when the time comes around for the tranny I will do the rear end swap and run a 400 thanks for the info on the impala parts I will definitely look into finding some of those parts. what year impalas are we talking about and how much of the suspension will swap over? are we talkin a Arms and full front assemblies or just the rear ends? Thanks for your help buckn you have helped me on here before I appreciate the info I plan on grandma driving the car untill I can get a better tranny behind it atleast no hot doggin for me :/

Stingroo
06-23-10, 10:48 PM
'94-96 B-body Impalas if you want performance parts.

Parts pretty much from 77-96 will work (especially sway bars, hint hint).

Note though, that if you get a rear end the wagon ones won't work, wrong size. Impala SS or SOME 9C1 Caprices from the 90's will give you posi + disc brakes though, depending on how much you're willing to look and spend.

My knowledge is limited, but I know a bit. I want to modify the wagon gradually like this. :D

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 11:06 PM
what about aftermarket parts for impalas say i install impala suspension can I then buy lowering kit for the impala to drop my lac? and sway bars same thing? all my friends up here auto x and their is a drag strip around me too im much more into dragging but it would be nice to auto x every now and then just to see people faces when an 86 fleetwood stomps on their nissan or ford focus....:)....also is their any place online to buy rear ends our scrap yards are really limited around me

Stingroo
06-23-10, 11:07 PM
Yeah, you could buy aftermarket shocks/springs for the Impala SS and they'll fit your Brougham. :thumbsup:

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 11:21 PM
Am i just a cheap skate or is 1800 dollars way to much for a used rear end assembly that doesnt have Sway bar, brake pads or shoes, brake calipers just seems like when i can buy a used tranny for 400 bux 1800 for a used rear end seems nuts

86fleetwood541
06-23-10, 11:24 PM
BTW thnx sting

Stingroo
06-23-10, 11:44 PM
Anytime. I try and help around here, even though I don't know a whole lot.

And no clue on your price conundrum.

86fleetwood541
07-01-10, 02:19 AM
Alright guys I havent forgot about this thread im gonna be getting to work here pretty soon somtime in early july if everything goes irght im just waiting on the check thats in the mail i was gonna do a olds 455 but the block is too far gone and i need a runner and dont have the money to put machine work into a block BUT....I found a pontiac 400 that has been rebuilt bored .30 over ported polished heads new carb and intake heads rebuilt streetstrip cam broken in and ran 3 hours on engine stand to be sure everything was kosher so thats the engine im going to drop in im still debating on running my 200-4r till it blows or buying a used th400 but we will see when the time comes....as for now ive noticed (since i trained) I have a leak somewhere inside (i have the big sunroof) but the leak is right at the upper lip of the window infront of the headliner feels like its coming through the sealent but I was told by the guy who sold me the car theirs drains in the sunroof i need to blow out with an air compressor...I cant find the holes he was talking about to do this can anyone confirm or deny this?:thepan:

csbuckn
07-01-10, 02:35 AM
You should check on the price of getting the 455 block tanked, fluxed and honed. My shop charges 70 bucks for the block and 140 for the heads. Keeping it Olds will save you some of the little headaches.

gillianwhittaker@xtr
07-01-10, 08:18 AM
It`s almost certain the 2004r will explode but they can be built--then again you don`t want to spend money ? cheap th 400 sounds like the ticket.
If you retain the th200 4r you can get a tv / carb adaptor -can`t remember where just off hand . I think Advanced Adapters in CA.(you will still have the cable etc for the th200 4r after it`s rebuilt :rolleyes:

I am told from a knowledgable olds /cadillac man that the headers least likely to give you grief are cutlass g body bb headers ---only one I have seen are hedman --again not cheap I know I am going for the 425 toro into an 86 fwb
If I can`t get a set easily(not much around here), I may have to make a set of headers to fit

might pay to look at repair of the 455 .If the ponty 400 is so good a deal ,can you buy it, make a buck by selling it and use the $ for the 455 rebuild.?

good luck( go 455 and you will need less luck)

gillianwhittaker@xtr
07-01-10, 08:25 AM
oh and the cam suggested for me is the xe 262h believe it is a compcams profile

86fleetwood541
07-02-10, 12:31 AM
I will definatly look around a little more ive talked to a couple people and they have all said it costed anywhere from 800 to 1400 to have their engine blocks tanked fluxed bored and honed. The 455 I have the guy who gave it to me spun a rod in a derby and didnt know it I am however looking at buying a long block but shucks auto (oreily and csk in other places) want 2 grand for the long block a hundred for the water and oil pump and i dont know if they sell long blocks with high compression pistons roller timing and more radical cams either (plus a $400 core charge on top of everything). I plan on more then likely grenadeing the 200-4r thats in it(when the time comes a couple nuetral drops should do it) but my goal is to granny the car untill I got the 1500 bux layin around to buy a new stage 2 th400 in which case ill swap in the impala ss rear end so ill have the 8.5 inch rear end instead of the 7.5 and disc breaks as well then im hopeing i will be able to drag my car all day(legally of course). my goal is to build a semi show/drag car that i can take to cruises on the weeknights and drag strip on the weekend.

csbuckn
07-02-10, 03:28 AM
You can also look on craigs in the automotive services section and find another shop that may be cheaper. Thats how I found the one I use. They emailed me a price list.

gillianwhittaker@xtr
07-02-10, 07:19 AM
I will definatly look around a little more ive talked to a couple people and they have all said it costed anywhere from 800 to 1400 to have their engine blocks tanked fluxed bored and honed. The 455 I have the guy who gave it to me spun a rod in a derby and didnt know it I am however looking at buying a long block but shucks auto (oreily and csk in other places) want 2 grand for the long block a hundred for the water and oil pump and i dont know if they sell long blocks with high compression pistons roller timing and more radical cams either (plus a $400 core charge on top of everything). I plan on more then likely grenadeing the 200-4r thats in it(when the time comes a couple nuetral drops should do it) but my goal is to granny the car untill I got the 1500 bux layin around to buy a new stage 2 th400 in which case ill swap in the impala ss rear end so ill have the 8.5 inch rear end instead of the 7.5 and disc breaks as well then im hopeing i will be able to drag my car all day(legally of course). my goal is to build a semi show/drag car that i can take to cruises on the weeknights and drag strip on the weekend.
As cs buckn says --look around for prices on engine work --I have a quote at the moment (and he is supposed to be good but expensive ) of $75 to tank the block,$325 to rebore (0.030" ) .This ofcourse is in another country but I have never found auto work cheap here.Other figures align piston to rod $144, check and fit bearings $117, clean and assemble heads $120, reface valve seats $$127 reface valves 3 angle $96 ,
As I say , not very helpful to you other than as "relative costs"
$800 to $1400 sounds high to me
mike