: Service writer claims GM will not warranty a blown engine?



DCTS-V
06-21-10, 10:55 PM
I picked up my car today from the dealer for a warranty repair. The service writer told me " You like to drive this car hard" with a smile. "the car has you recorded going 125mph when the check engine light came on." Apperantly when the check engine light comes on the computer takes a snap shot of all the sensors and exactly what was going on at the time of occurance. He then told me if I was going that fast and my engine had blown up that GM will not warranty it. Can anyone confirm this? :eek:

Mika
06-21-10, 11:06 PM
He is correct about the freeze frame data. It picks up as much info as possible to help diagnose the problem, speed being one of those bits of information. As far as GM not warrantying a blown engine, that's news to me. Where does it say that GM can deny a claim based on speed? It's a gray area to me.



Mika

Patrick Smith
06-21-10, 11:06 PM
Uh, why only 125? Or were you slowing down?

Razorecko
06-21-10, 11:25 PM
i wonder if a Jesse/W4me tune would block that out ?

thebigjimsho
06-21-10, 11:30 PM
Thank him nicely and then inquire why they didn't limit your 556hp sedan to 80mph...

DCTS-V
06-21-10, 11:59 PM
Uh, why only 125? Or were you slowing down?

Track Day in Fontana.

DCTS-V
06-22-10, 12:03 AM
He is correct about the freeze frame data. It picks up as much info as possible to help diagnose the problem, speed being one of those bits of information. As far as GM not warrantying a blown engine, that's news to me. Where does it say that GM can deny a claim based on speed? It's a gray area to me.



Mika

I did not open up the warranty book yet, but I will call the dealer tomorrow and ask more questions.

DCTS-V
06-22-10, 12:05 AM
Uh, why only 125? Or were you slowing down?

125 is when the check engine light turned on. If I was going 135 and the check engine light had come on that's what it would have recorded.

tedcmiller
06-22-10, 12:23 AM
The engine in my 2004 CTS-V gave up the ghost (connecting rod through the engine block), but I was doing the speed limit (about 60 MPH) when it happened. No questions were asked, and the engine was replaced under warranty.

cbloveday
06-22-10, 01:04 AM
Gm is very clear on their warranty. I believe the process of a snap shot is outlined in corp bulletin #09-06-04-026:

Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines - (May 18, 2009)


Subject: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines


Models: 2006-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X)

2006-2009 HUMMER H2, H3

Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only



Attention: This bulletin applies to V8 gas powered engines ONLY. For all other gas powered engine applications, refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033D. For diesel powered engines, refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-006C.



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General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.

When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy to cancel any remaining warranty coverage to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That’s because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different than those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.

Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty. It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.

In May 2009, the PQC will begin piloting a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued. Beginning on May 18, 2009, the PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.

If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be cancelled and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified.

•Plug in the Tech 2.
•Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle.
•Select "Powertrain".
•Select "Engine".
•*Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM".
•*Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
•*If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.




•Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2 screen showing the engine calibration verification information as shown above.
•E-mail the snapshot picture to ****. In the subject line of the email include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, inlcude the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC.
•Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.
•You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.
If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC (1-800-222-2222 English or 1-800-222-2222 French) to obtain the CVN information.
__________________



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#08-06-04-033: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L, 3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L 6.2L 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L Gas - (May 30, 2008)


Subject: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L, 3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L Gas Powered Engines Only


Models: 2006-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2006-2009 HUMMER H2, H3

Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models




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Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):


Go to TIS2WEB
Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
Enter VIN
Select "Get Cal ID"
Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
Select "Next"
Select "Complete History"
Print
Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2
Plug in the Tech 2
Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
Select "Powertrain"
Select "Engine"
*Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
*Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
*If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.
* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case -- a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to and for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

wait4me
06-22-10, 03:00 AM
You can easily clear out a freeze frame log.

But, if you dont, i would suppose they could see you doing some hard driving when it turns on the code if you dont clear it out or pull the battery before you bring it in. Pulling the negitive off the battery for a few minutes would clear all that data out.

Vrocks
06-22-10, 10:50 AM
Doesn't make sense to me...

They advertise it as the worlds fastest production sedan, they brag about the top speed, 0-60 and 1/4mi times. Yet, if you're caught driving it fast (as they seem to suggest it should be driven, and can handle being driven like that), and something breaks, they won't conver it?

CIWS
06-22-10, 11:03 AM
I don't see them denying the warranty based on speed as long as that speed doesn't exceed the factory set limits of the vehicle. Now if you blow an engine and you're at a track, and they discover this, they could deny the warranty. So if you blow an engine at the track don't call 1-800 Cadillac roadside service. :)
If you break something on the car in the powertrain and have a tune in the computer when they have it for service, there's a chance they could discover it and once again could deny the warranty no matter what speed you were driving.

The Tony Show
06-22-10, 11:05 AM
I've never once heard of GM denying a warranty claim because of speed captured in a freeze frame. Racing, aftermarket tunes, aftermarket parts yes, but speed? No. Your service writer has an active imagination.

Ketzer
06-22-10, 11:07 AM
Its the same as everything else in the modern world. Deny first. Then try to make you waste your money and time until you give up. They can get very far not doing anything while you waste resources and time you don't have.
It is not about fair, or right, or image, or service. It is about the bottom dollar.

BUT, if you've modded your powertrain AT ALL... you are accepting the risk that something may go wrong and you will eat it.

Jeff-

Razorecko
06-22-10, 11:12 AM
I lemon'd my old jeep srt8 because the transfer case went out and they ( chrysler/jeep ) refused to fix/admit it. I got a new jeep, I broke it in properly and than did a couple high speed runs. A couple hundred miles later I was getting a driveline shudder ( same initial symptom of the one I lemon'd ) I told my dealership. The dealership uploaded all my info to Chrysler, I proceeded to get "scolded" by them for abusing my vehicle ( I took it up to 145mph ). I told them that maybe they shouldn't have named their vehicles " Street Racing Technology " and maybe should have put a speed limiter on it. I than proceeded to sell my jeep and get my V. They basically told me if something goes wrong they will deny it because they have it on record that I "abused" my vehicle. DC was horrriiiible on warranty/service. GM is so far 1000x better.

SleepTight
06-22-10, 11:24 AM
This bulletin is clearly talking about engine and transmission "calibrations" i.e., tunes, not the speed of the car when the engine fails. Is there anybody here who was not already aware that an engine tune can potentially void their warranty?

TMC CL65
06-22-10, 11:51 AM
I am wondering if GM/Cadillac posted speed limit signs at their CTS-V Challenge.... or at any of their sponsored track days. Itseems like this may just be a case of a service advisor/manager just running their uninformed mouth stating their opinion, rather than fact.

Tom

MReiland
06-22-10, 01:07 PM
I am wondering if GM/Cadillac posted speed limit signs at their CTS-V Challenge.... or at any of their sponsored track days. Itseems like this may just be a case of a service advisor/manager just running their uninformed mouth stating their opinion, rather than fact.

Tom
:yeah:

baabootoo
06-22-10, 01:19 PM
"The sky is falling....The sky is falling........" Hey, if they deny it, you always have insurance that will cover it; hopefully.

tedcmiller
06-22-10, 02:10 PM
I think Ketser is correct. Warranty work has never been denied on any vehicle that did not exceed the advertised top speed. However, denying coverage is a normal course of events - these days especially and also in the past. The ones who have to pay are hoping you will give up before they do. After all it doesn't cost them anything to say no. When the probability of them having to pay your expenses plus the cost of the warranty exceeds a certain threshold (they have people on the payroll who look at these things constantly), then they will come around.

First they will offer considerably less than is due. If that doesn't work, they will offer only what is due. If you want more than is due (pain, suffering, etc.) things will get very difficult in a hurry. The same principals apply to collecting insurance. After all, what is a warranty but a form of insurance?

nradcad
06-22-10, 02:32 PM
"The sky is falling....The sky is falling........" Hey, if they deny it, you always have insurance that will cover it; hopefully.

really?

Submariner409
06-22-10, 03:34 PM
............even back in '65 if you were caught with incorrect jets in the Holley on your 327ci/350hp Chevelle, you paid the price of holing a piston.

Drive the car "stock" as delivered, no problems; mess with the engine - in any way - and you throw the warranty out the window.

A service writer who denied a malfunction based solely on vehicle speed within advertised specifications is patently wrong.

cdog533
06-22-10, 03:44 PM
That's not exactly true. You can modify anything, and the warranty is good, so long as your mods don't cause the issue. And you can prove it...

As I recall, GM has to PROVE that your modifications caused the issue in order to nullify your warranty under Moss-Magnusson. A new exhaust won't nullify a warranty for a broken rod, as they are unrelated.

From another source: "Under the Magnusson-Moss Act, a dealership or manufacturer cannot deny warranty coverage solely because the consumer has installed aftermarket parts. This does not give tuners an excuse though, to throw anything they want on the car. If the manufacturer or dealership determines the mechanical problem is fully or even partially due to an aftermarket part, they have the legal right to deny coverage or repair under the warranty. What this all means is that, although you can modify your vehicle with aftermarket parts, you should make sure you being smart about your modifications."

And as for speed, they can FORGET about nullifying it. Their warranty is not linked to local laws regarding motor vehicle codes. So long as you don't operate the car incorrectly, you are fine. If you took it overseas, you might drive it at 155 for a hour solid, and it damn well better do that, as it is within parameters of the car.

In fact, so long as you show normal care and judgement during any driving, you are OK. If the black box shows you held it at redline in neutral for 90 minutes, you might be in trouble. I am not sure about racing, is that exempted?

These warranty acts are really slanted toward the consumer, so don't be afraid of GM. But things like tunes, supercharger pulleys, etc. will almost CERTAINLY be linked by GM to any major meltdown, the part's fault or not.

CIWS
06-22-10, 03:50 PM
As I recall, GM has to PROVE that your modifications caused the issue in order to nullify your warranty under Moss-Magnusson. A new exhaust won't nullify a warranty for a broken rod, as they are unrelated.

And as for speed, they can FORGET about nullifying it. Their warranty is not linked to local laws regarding motor vehicle codes. So long as you don't operate the car incorrectly, you are fine. If you took it overseas, you might drive it at 155 for a hour solid, and it damn well better do that, as it is within parameters of the car.

In fact, so long as you show normal care and judgement, you are OK. If the black box shows you held it at redline in neutral for 90 minutes, you might be in trouble....

These warranty acts are really slanted toward the consumer, so don't be afraid of GM...

Any proof would have to be produced in a hearing or court after you have filed a lawsuit because they denied the warranty. So you the owner could get to sit with a broken vehicle for months or years waiting for that case to make it to court and be heard, and then you still might lose. If a dealership denies to repair the car under warranty it becomes your burden to get them into a situation (court) to prove it, not theirs.

DiamondWhtV
06-22-10, 03:54 PM
....Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM.....

That says it all right there. If you modify the vehicle (either tune or mods) then the warranty may not cover the failure. If the vehicle was used for racing won't be covered either. I don't think that verbiage has changed since the 1975 Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Nothing new

DCTS-V
06-26-10, 11:58 PM
"The sky is falling....The sky is falling........" Hey, if they deny it, you always have insurance that will cover it; hopefully.

Not sure how insurance would cover a blown engine, unless you maybe put that in your policy. They might deny it also if you have mods.

CVP33
06-27-10, 12:37 AM
Hmmmm. Service writer is full of crap. However, if they get the ASM involved you may have a really memorable experience. This brings back bad memories.

baabootoo
07-05-10, 01:51 AM
I am wondering if GM/Cadillac posted speed limit signs at their CTS-V Challenge.... or at any of their sponsored track days. Itseems like this may just be a case of a service advisor/manager just running their uninformed mouth stating their opinion, rather than fact.

Tom

This never happens, does it???????? :)