: 70 deville did i blow the engine you decide



70LAC
06-21-10, 04:48 PM
i just drove the car from a paint job to home, so i wake up and the oil light is on in the morning i was going to get my oil changed at jiffy lube. they pull it up to the bay and it runs loud they put on a filter that they think is comparable to original and they put in the thickest oil they carry 10/30. after it changed i start to hear knocking coming out the engine. im freaking out and tell them is that the thickest oil they said they can use a thicker desiel oil thats formulated for desiels. well its not a desiel so i go to autozone and get 20/50 and a can of lucus to see if it will make the knocking go away i also change the plugs. they put in my oill and the lucus and it still knocks when i give it gas and when i floor it it only goes 1o miles an hour. i have spoke to a few mechanics they think the oil pump has gone out. keep in mind soon as the oil light came on i drove it about max 1 mile to change the oil and then around the block after i got the change to test change. now if it is the oil pump do you think my engine is shot or do you guess a new oil pump will fix it? odometer reads 48k miles it ran perfect day before. jiffy lube said oil that came out had flakes and was thick. does it mean its messes up inside. u never know on the old cadillacs if 48k is 48k or 1148k. so i will know more when i tow it to a shop. just wondering what your guess is and see who is right or if anyone has experienced this before because im lost and am sure ill be in the hole a bunch of money. or do you possibly think something else could be wrong.

sven914
06-21-10, 05:38 PM
The oil pump is possible. Metal flakes in the oil would be a sign that the oil pump was going.

The knocking noise is bad though. That means that one or more of your bearings failed because of the low oil pressure. You mechanic needs to drop the pan to check/repair the oil pump, have him also check the bearings on the crankshaft (unfortunately that is also a probable cause of metal flakes in the oil).

codewize
06-21-10, 05:43 PM
I would double check the filter. Just because it screws on doesn't mean it's right. It may be blocking oil flow. The light you're talking about monitors pressure so yes, a failed or failing oil pump could be the culprit.

Secondly, why do you want the thickest oil you can get? All that's going to do is put more strain on the oil pump and make it more difficult to get oil to the places that are suffering.

I think the correct oil is 10W-30 and why in gods name would you bring anything you care about to Jiffy Lube?

sven914
06-21-10, 05:50 PM
^His problem stated before they touched the car, so mechanic's error can be mostly ruled out


I wake up and the oil light is on in the morning I was going to get my oil changed at jiffy lube.

And yes thicker oil does cause more of a strain on the pump, but it can be beneficial in older cars because it helps maintain pressure on the bearings, as the material wears away.

csbuckn
06-21-10, 06:52 PM
My vote is the oil pump and spun bearing.

70LAC
06-21-10, 08:40 PM
I have a link of video of the jiffy lube experience that includes the knocking and filter they used all on video but this site wont let me post links :( it has clues as to what a cadillac expert might find and i cant. Can anyone overide this so i can post the website link

Stingroo
06-21-10, 08:43 PM
PM it to me and I'll post it for you.

70LAC
06-21-10, 08:46 PM
IT WONT EVEN LET ME PM A LINK TO ANYONE IT SAYS
"Due to large amounts of spam, you must meet certain requirements before you can use our Private Messaging system. You must either be a member for a specific amount of time, have a specific amount of messages posted, or a combination of both.

You may, however, send Private Messages to our staff...

The Team

jayoldschool
06-21-10, 08:51 PM
I'm staff, I think. Try PM to me. Upload your vid to photobucket, and give me the link.

sven914
06-21-10, 08:54 PM
^ He got to it first, but you can also post the web address, without linking the URL. One of us can copy the URL and repost the video.

70LAC
06-21-10, 09:13 PM
watch?v=uUPuD1Wtv2c

this is on youtube

Stingroo
06-21-10, 09:25 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUPuD1Wtv2c

sven914
06-21-10, 10:25 PM
For one, the dick used the wrong oil filter. According to FRAM, your car takes a PH25, the PH30 is for the Chevrolet 350.

For two, the engine is screwed. You said it was running loud before they serviced it, so I think you spun a bearing on the drive to the shop. The good news is that the engine isn't completly dead (you could have seized it and then there would be no hope for it), but I think you're looking at a rebuild.

codewize
06-21-10, 10:26 PM
I understand and I know that BUT ...

I don't think I would have made that call here. I say replace the oil pump and see what happens. You may have done only minor damage and a new pump providing proper lubrication may save the bearing in question.

Or at least make the car drivable for a bit more.

EDIT: ooohhh just listened to the video. That's not good.



^His problem stated before they touched the car, so mechanic's error can be mostly ruled out

And yes thicker oil does cause more of a strain on the pump, but it can be beneficial in older cars because it helps maintain pressure on the bearings, as the material wears away.

70LAC
06-21-10, 10:35 PM
so worse case you guys think a rebuild>? no its not seized so does it mean it can be saved? or will a new oil pump possible fix this problem by lubricating the top pistons.? geeze how much does a pump and rebuild cost? i dont want the shop i take it to tomorrow to try to screw me if its just a oil pump and they try to make me do a rebuild or replace the motor.

77CDV
06-21-10, 11:04 PM
Oil pump is likely shot, but that knocking makes me think of very bad things, all of which point to a rebuild. As you just had the car repainted, you may as well redo/replace the engine. Rebuild would be a couple thousand.

greencadillacmatt
06-21-10, 11:22 PM
Being a 1970, it has the 472 engine. If I were you, I'd scour craigslist and try and find a running Cadillac 472. Take it to a trusted mechanic and see how much an engine swap would set you back. Sorry about your bad luck man. Looks like a great car. :(

jayoldschool
06-21-10, 11:39 PM
Take the engine out, replace or grind the crank, install new bearings, and put back together. Cheap and easy. The 70 472 is worth saving! While it's out, throw an MTS cam in it, too... ;)

Oh, BTW, just listened to the vid. That sounds bad. The only hope is for a broken flexplate. But I don't think so.

sven914
06-21-10, 11:46 PM
As codewise said, replacing the oil pump may make the knock go away. Right now it is knocking because there is no oil pressure and putting in thicker oils won't do anything because it's not circulating, so once the bearing has oil, the knock may stop. But, this issue is terminal, and any solution that does not involve replacing the bad bearings will be a temporary fix.

I would get an estimate on the rebuild. Price-wise, it won't be as bad as it would be if they had to completly overhaul the engine. You don't need to pay for new pistons, timing parts, freeze plugs, cam bearings (they're recommended though), new/re-machined cam shaft, or new push-rods as would be part of a regular engine rebuild. You just need them to take the pistons out and replace the oil pump, rings, and crankshaft bearings (they might have to have the crank machined or replaced). If the shop quotes you anything over $500, get a second opinion... It shouldn't be that much.

csbuckn
06-21-10, 11:47 PM
Ouch, that's deep. That's really unfortunate. You got some tough decisions ahead

outsider
06-22-10, 08:49 AM
On the bright side...If you do need to replace the engine, aside from how heavy it is pulling the engines from these cars is pretty easy to do!

And they go in even easier :)

codewize
06-22-10, 09:44 AM
Can that job not be done from the bottom without pulling the engine?

70LAC
06-22-10, 04:27 PM
towed it to the shop today, the mechanic said somtimes thoes cars have a valve near the filter and they can fall out when changing the oil. he looked at it and said it had the valve now he is gonna run a compression check, i feel like a father might when his child is in the hospital... i should know more by the end of the day

70LAC
06-22-10, 06:19 PM
shop said the oil pump is shot and he couldnt even prime it so ill know if the new pump saves the engine and stops the knocking in 3 days when it comes in whats your guess will it?

sven914
06-22-10, 06:34 PM
^Like I said, the knock may stop when the bearing gets some oil, but the damage has already been done. It will just be a temporary fix, and the engine will start to knock again in the near future. But, you can start saving you money and planing for the rebuild, and you will still have the car for the weekends in the mean time.

cadillac_al
06-22-10, 07:42 PM
It won't stop knocking with a new oil pump; guaranteed and I'm taking wagers. There is no way around it; it will need new bearings at the very least but the crank will most likely need to be ground too. This would be the time to change the old worn out timing chain too. It is definitely worth fixing and I hope you get her back on the road.

c.camp450
06-22-10, 07:54 PM
sounds like you spun a bearing dude, either way its not good. cant trust those jiffy lube places, my g/f took her car to one of those places and when she took it home there was oil everywhere, friggan retards forgot to put oil cap back on. luckily it was like 3miles away.

Rolex
06-22-10, 08:18 PM
watch?v=uUPuD1Wtv2c

this is on youtube

Link edited:

uUPuD1Wtv2c

70LAC
06-23-10, 12:25 AM
It won't stop knocking with a new oil pump; guaranteed and I'm taking wagers. There is no way around it; it will need new bearings at the very least but the crank will most likely need to be ground too. This would be the time to change the old worn out timing chain too. It is definitely worth fixing and I hope you get her back on the road.

if its a spun bearing how much does that usualy cost to fix by a shop ? i dont want to be overcharged. and how much is it to ground the crank?

cadillac_al
06-23-10, 05:38 AM
If it were me, I would pull the engine out and remove the crankshaft. I usually buy complete reground crankshafts with bearings for under $200 for most engines. The old 472 might be more if they are getting scarce. If they were scarce and considerably more expensive then I would take it to a good machine shop and have it reground for about the same price. If you have to pay a shop to do it, then they will mark up all the parts close to 100% plus quite a bit of labor. I would guess 10-16 hours at your local shop rate. Then add the cost of an oil pump and timing chain and some gaskets and seals. Bottom line is; it's not that expensive to fix yourself but can get very expensive to have somebody else do it.

I have a sweet running '70 472 but it has been sitting for a few years. When I get ready to use it again I will be putting in new bearings and an oil pump and timing chain just for preventative measures. If you are thinking about buying another engine that has been sitting a while, it should have those same preventive measures so you may not be much further ahead than fixing your engine.

deVille33
06-23-10, 10:12 AM
By all accounts, it sounds like a spun bearing. If you rebuild your oil pump you won't restore your oil pressure, because of the hemorraging at the bearing and crank. The metal in the oil is the result of the bearing spinning in the large rod journal. Replacing/ regrinding the crank and new bearings are in order, but also the rod that the bearing spun in has to be concidered. If your going to check one, you may as well check them all.
What you do from here depends upon your financial situation and attitude regarding rebuilds. The quality of the shop you select and the machine shop they select are factors of what you'll get as an end result. Quality Rules!
If available, you maybe better off getting another engine or getting a crate engine. Getting a rebuilt has advantages, in that you don't have to wait while the shop sorts out the problems and the engine most likely comes with a waranty.
Used engines = Cavet Emptor. If you go this route, open the bottom end and check your bearings and rod clearances. Rebuild your oil pump.

70LAC
06-25-10, 04:40 AM
resuts are in, it was just the oil pump,had pump replaced runs great no knocking and good compression. ill post a video of it soon.im thankfull for all your comments and the fact the engine has low 48k miles and i didnt drive it when the oil light came on saved me an engine. this is a video of car i made today , drove it all day no problems. YouTube- caddy release rick flair 2pac tooshort

codewize
06-25-10, 09:35 AM
:dance7::wes:

I'm cautiously going to say, who's the man.

A knock doesn't always mean damage, it immediately means lack of lubrication. Fortunately for us GM used Clevite bearings, allowing us to get away with such antics.

I'm glad she's fixed.

sven914
06-25-10, 04:29 PM
The optimist in me is happy for you. The pessimist in me keeps the optimist locked in a cage, and says to save you money; problems tend to come back to bite you in the ass.

deVille33
06-26-10, 09:22 AM
Glad you made it out of that situation with a minimum. As sven914 says.