: Long Hard Starts



thewireman*
06-21-10, 11:04 AM
I did the search first, and tried them all and did not fix the problem. Heres my problem-

My 1999 deville starts after maybe 3 long seconds, and thats too long and worried about my starter going bad. I have replaced Fuel Pressure Regulator, fuel filter, and fuel pump with gas vapor sensor. And I had to replace the coolant sensor because for some reason the old one had the connecter broke off so the wire would keep coming off. So now its connected to the new sensor but sometimes I would read the coolant reading that would show -20 to 140 just jumping up and down. :confused: And as soon I replaced the coolant sensor, it would run it too rich. Really strong black smoke (smells like heavy gas). But would run just fine after a nice drive. Does anybody know what's wrong? Any tips? Thank you guys.

Mike

PS I'll post the code in as soon I can. I know one of them is "coolant sensor voltage too high"

Ranger
06-21-10, 12:19 PM
So now its connected to the new sensor but sometimes I would read the coolant reading that would show -20 to 140 just jumping up and down.
Are you talking about the ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) sensor or the ambient air temperature sensor behind the grill?

thewireman*
06-21-10, 01:07 PM
The ECT

thewireman*
06-21-10, 04:15 PM
Here is the codes that I have now.

P0118 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit High Voltage (Current)
P0125 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Insufficient for Closed Loop Fuel Control (Current)
P1115 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit Intermittent High Voltage (History)
U1040 - Loss of Class 2 Communications with ABS (History)
U1255 - Class 2 Communication Malfunction (Serial Data Line Malfunction) (History)
B1327 - Vehicle system voltage below 9.0 volts (History)
B1328 - Vehicle system voltage is greater than 15.9 volts (History)

I don't understand about this Vehicle system voltage codes, since I have a 200 amp alternator for my small sound system. Hmmm.

thewireman*
06-22-10, 10:47 AM
Anyone?

ponyboyt
06-22-10, 10:58 AM
has the battery been drained, either low or just disconnected? I think the low voltage codes and others can pop up if the battery gets low enough that when you run the starter it will draw it down low enough to throw some codes. I had a cooked battery in my 98, it had no less than 40 codes when the new battery went in. Ive since cleared them and now have 4 codes. A dead or low or disconected battery can do a lot.

As for the ECT sensor, probably have to follow FSM diag procedure. I dont have that installed on this netbook, dang... But if its been replaced, ive heard of inaccurate aftermarket sensors. Either that or a wiring issue. Ive had lots of those.... bad sensor readings cause by a bad or disconnected ground. Had a horrible battery to body ground once that was causing all kinds of problems.

Old Skool Soldier
06-22-10, 05:55 PM
How's the oil level? I beleive these motors won't fire up until they've reached a certain oil pressure..low oil would take more time to build up pressure, thus possibly a factor in your long starts. Also, when was the last time you changed plugs/what plugs are in? I removed my bosch +4's for stock Delco 41-950's and noticed a quicker start.

-OSS

thewireman*
06-22-10, 06:47 PM
has the battery been drained, either low or just disconnected? I think the low voltage codes and others can pop up if the battery gets low enough that when you run the starter it will draw it down low enough to throw some codes. I had a cooked battery in my 98, it had no less than 40 codes when the new battery went in. Ive since cleared them and now have 4 codes. A dead or low or disconected battery can do a lot.

As for the ECT sensor, probably have to follow FSM diag procedure. I dont have that installed on this netbook, dang... But if its been replaced, ive heard of inaccurate aftermarket sensors. Either that or a wiring issue. Ive had lots of those.... bad sensor readings cause by a bad or disconnected ground. Had a horrible battery to body ground once that was causing all kinds of problems.

Pony, I had Advance Auto check my battery, and said it was bad. WOW so maybe that was the problem whole time? If it was bad, why does it still starts the car?

Thank god I still have warranty on the battery, so I will get the new battery tomorrow. Thanks for the help.


How's the oil level? I beleive these motors won't fire up until they've reached a certain oil pressure..low oil would take more time to build up pressure, thus possibly a factor in your long starts. Also, when was the last time you changed plugs/what plugs are in? I removed my bosch +4's for stock Delco 41-950's and noticed a quicker start.

-OSS

I have replaced the AC-Delco wires and plugs about 7 months ago. The oil is good, getting close to be changed. Is it true that oil is oil? I always use 10-30 oil. Thanks for pointing that out. The plugs and wires really makes a big difference.

Submariner409
06-22-10, 07:49 PM
1999 Northstar = 10W-30 oil of whatever type and major brand floats your boat at the time. I'm partial to WIX filters.

thewireman*
06-22-10, 08:12 PM
Great to know Sub. I mainly use AC/Delco and sometimes WIX.

Ranger
06-22-10, 10:24 PM
How's the oil level? I beleive these motors won't fire up until they've reached a certain oil pressure..low oil would take more time to build up pressure, thus possibly a factor in your long starts. Also, when was the last time you changed plugs/what plugs are in? I removed my bosch +4's for stock Delco 41-950's and noticed a quicker start.

-OSS
Only partially true. If the fuel pump relay is inop, then oil pressure has to be built up to override it, but oil level has nothing to do with pressure or how long it takes to build it.

thewireman*
06-23-10, 10:10 PM
Well got new battery, and still having the same long hard starts. The ECT is normal now. Whats next?

Ranger
06-23-10, 10:23 PM
Check the fuel pump relay and check for a leaky injector. Either could cause long hard starts. A leaky injector would also cause a rich fuel condition. Tech Tips section has a tutorial on how to check them.

thewireman*
06-23-10, 11:16 PM
Thanks Ranger-

I reset the codes and now it starts right up...:confused: So I would have to drive around more and see what happens.

How can I really reset everything, memory, history codes, etc and start fresh?

Ranger
06-23-10, 11:29 PM
Might try pulling battery power for :10 minutes or so, but be advised that you'll get some U codes that will have to be cleared.

A leaky injector (if that is your problem) will not set any codes or be affected by pulling power or resetting anything. A leaky injector is like a valve that is sticking open and not closing.

thewireman*
06-23-10, 11:46 PM
I cannot find Tech Tips section. Is it under Cadillac Technical Archive? I'm sorry, I'm not used to this website as much.

When it starts, it does not make it rich anymore. Its more like normal starts now. But like I said, I need to drive it more and see what happens. Once again, Thank you.

Mike

Ranger
06-23-10, 11:51 PM
No, scroll down to Cadillac Forum Jump and click on the down arrow. Then scroll up to it.

thewireman*
06-27-10, 10:53 AM
Got it. Well after more driving around, it still does the long starts. Sometimes the check engine light would come on, then goes away, then comes back, over and over. :confused:

The driving is just fine by the way.

Ranger
06-27-10, 12:32 PM
If the check engine light came on, then there are codes set. Pull and post them along with the DTC definition.

thewireman*
06-27-10, 05:19 PM
P0118 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit High Voltage
P1115 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit Intermittent High Voltage
B1552 - Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error
B2710 - PASSKey Open/Shorted Pellet
B1327 - Vehicle system voltage below 9.0 volts
B1328 - Vehicle system voltage is greater than 15.9 volts
U1040 - Loss of Class 2 Communications with ABS
U1255 - Class 2 Communication Malfunction (Serial Data Line Malfunction)

This is what I have right now. So far, I have new battery, new ECT sensor, fuel pump, fuel filter, FPR, 200 amp alternator...

I have no clue why its doing that. Its driving me crazy! :mad:

Ranger
06-27-10, 10:57 PM
New battery and alternator and you are still getting B1327 - Vehicle system voltage below 9.0 volts? Current or history?

thewireman*
06-27-10, 11:23 PM
Thats correct. And its History. It popped up three times with the new battery.

thewireman*
06-29-10, 07:37 PM
Anybody? :suspense:

Ranger
06-29-10, 11:04 PM
Thats correct. And its History. It popped up three times with the new battery.
Check the cables for corrosion. If they are OK, have the "new battery" tested. I've had new batteries go bad in 6 months and have even had bad ones right of the shelf.

thewireman*
06-30-10, 02:58 PM
Ok ranger. I dropped the car off for electronic check up. See if they can find a problem.

thewireman*
06-30-10, 03:59 PM
Can the starter cause this problem? Just asking.

thewireman*
06-30-10, 06:01 PM
Well, I just picked my car up and heres what they said-

The fuel pressure is at 44psi while running. That sounds right.

The fuel pressure drops immediately when turned off. (Is that mean my FPR is bad?)

No current codes - Battery is great shape, alternator is in a great shape. everything else too.

So it has to be a fuel issue....

Do I have a bad new fuel pump? have a bad new FPR? Thanks guys.

Mike

tateos
06-30-10, 07:26 PM
Sounds to me like the FPR is bad - I think you're on the right track

thewireman*
06-30-10, 08:01 PM
tateos- Thank you. I'm going to get a new one. I should get AC/Delco correct? Thanks.

Mike

Ranger
06-30-10, 10:48 PM
With the fuel pressure dropping off immediately after shut down, I'd suspect the check valve in the pump, but the FPR is easy to check before buying a new one. Just pull the vacuum line at idle and look for fuel leaking from the nipple.

thewireman*
07-01-10, 11:07 AM
Ranger, there is no leaks whatsoever while idling. This is the pump I got in the car- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390197536067&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT
What does the check valve look like? Is it in the fuel pump? Is there any chance that this pump dont have one? Could I get one and install it myself? I don't have a problem taking this tank off again since my buddy has a car lift. :)


I still have my old pump.

Mike

Ranger
07-01-10, 12:18 PM
The check valve is built into the pump somewhere. If this is a new pump, then I'd rule that out.

thewireman*
07-01-10, 12:28 PM
Okay so if there is no leaks out of FPR, but it still can be bad?

Mike

tateos
07-01-10, 03:27 PM
I didn't know there was a check valve in the pump assembly - I thought the FPR was responsible for maintaining pressure in the fuel rail, but I definitely could be wrong.

A good test to see if losing fuel pressure is causing your starting problems would be to turn the key on, but don't turn the key start until after a couple secs, once the fuel pump has pressurized the system - see if that helps.

thewireman*
07-01-10, 06:52 PM
You know what guys? I found the problem, I just wanted to take the FPR out, just to look at it, and of course, found the problem. The o-ring was not seated right, and chewed the o-ring out. So I got a new o-ring, made sure it was seated right, and bam, fixed the problem. I'm kicking myself for not getting this sooner :banghead:, but thats ok.

Mike

Ranger
07-01-10, 10:55 PM
Tateos, I could be wrong, but always was under the impression that there is a check valve to maintain system pressure while shut down.

Glad you figured it out Wireman.

thewireman*
07-02-10, 08:39 PM
Thank you so much guys. I'm so happy now. Runs great, no codes.

tateos
07-06-10, 08:39 PM
Tateos, I could be wrong, but always was under the impression that there is a check valve to maintain system pressure while shut down.

Glad you figured it out Wireman.

Like I said, I could be the one who's wrong, but I always thought the pressure that's maintained is in the fuel rail, between the FPR and the injectors, not between the FR and the fuel pump, although there could be pressure retained there also...just not sure.

Ranger
07-06-10, 10:38 PM
Hmm, good point. No reason to keep it pressurized from the FPR back to the tank (return line), but what about from the pump to the FPR (supply line)? With no check valve in the pump, the supply line would drain back. Unless I am picturing the fuel lines wrong, you can't hold pressure between the FPR and the injectors without having a check valve somewhere prior to the fuel rail. Fuel pump seems to be the most logical place as the idea is not to have to pressurize the entire line from the pump to the injectors at each start (faster starts I suppose). I should dig out the manual and study it, but I'm too lazy to go out into the hot garage. Maybe tomorrow, if I think about it.

Ranger
07-06-10, 11:14 PM
OK, curiosity got the best of me. The FPR is at the beginning of the fuel rail so it would maintain pressure in the entire rail, but that would not accomplish much (to my thinking) if the line from the tank to the FPR was allowed to drain back. I'm sticking with a check valve at the pump, though I could find no mention of it in my brief search.

tateos
07-07-10, 12:43 PM
:-) Sure - what you say makes some sense - maybe there's a check valve of some sort in both locations. I'm almost positive there is constant pressure in the fuel rail after the FPR. I think you're also correct that there is some residual pressure in the fuel line between the pump and the FPR, so I guess there has to be some sort of check valve or one way flow designed in.

In the end, if fuel pressure in the fuel rail is dropping after the engine is turned off, which was what the OP reported a few days ago, then that definitely points to the FPR, or in his case, a faulty FPR o-ring.

Submariner409
07-07-10, 01:37 PM
FWIW, I connected a piece of vacuum hose to the fuel pump outlet nipple on a new module - can't blow back through the pump - check valve/ball ???

It would stand to reason - you would not want to keep the fuel pump itself loaded - too much starting load. A ball check at the outlet would maintain line pressure for some period of time yet allow the pump to initially start under no load (for a tenth of a second.......).

thewireman*
07-07-10, 03:37 PM
Great information guys!

Submariner409
07-07-10, 05:09 PM
............remember that once the fuel pump and engine are running, the fuel pump runs against a 45 psi pressure head all the time which is different from startup into a pressure head.

Gilded_Splinters
08-10-10, 12:58 AM
Hey,

I'm seeing this thread a bit late, but am glad I found it.

I just bought a 95 Seville that has this problem. I'll pull the codes and all for curiosity's sake, but should ask while I'm thinking of it:

Where is the fuel pump relay located?

Ranger
08-10-10, 12:52 PM
Fuse box.