: Malfunction Indicator Light with P0741 and P1860



2001_Seville_SLS
06-19-10, 03:11 PM
I was able to fix this problem last spring, and another forum user just asked about it, so I am posting the problem and a solution in case someone else can take advantage of the alternate fix that avoids removing the transaxle. The problem was on a 2001 Seville SLS with a 4T80-E automatic transaxle. The malfunction indicator light was on and P0741 and P1860 codes were indicated on the drivers’ information screen in the dashboard. (Press and hold two of the driver info buttons at the same time to view the codes on the Seville.)

The trouble codes were:
P0741 indicating a problem with the torque converter clutch solenoid valve.
P1860 indicating a problem with the TCC circuit.

Last summer the Cadillac dealer proposed a new transmission so I took it to a trusted transmission shop instead. The transmission shop verified the transmission was operating properly and suggested the problem was electrical. They said to ignore the light and keep driving. The decision tree in the factory service manual lead to the PCM, so in another attempt to fix the pesky light I had a Tech II repair shop replace and program a new PCM which did not fix the problem. They insisted that the problem was with the mechanical components of the transmission. Considering the difference in opinion by the repair shops and after spending the money on a replacement PCM, I got used to the light ... until the car failed emissions due to the P0741 code.

I thought about the benefit of having the MIL light available when I really need it so I decided to look into diagnosing the problem myself. After a thorough reading of the service manual and testing the wiring for shorts or opens, I checked the resistance across the terminals of the torque converter clutch pulse width modulated (TCC PWM) solenoid valve. There should be 10-15 ohms, but was no resistance which indicates a bad solenoid valve. (If the decision tree in the service manual told us to check this, it would have saved the cost of a PCM.) The quote from the transmission shop for replacing the valve came in around $1500 because they said the transmission had to come out to replace it. The transmission shop suggested obtaining a repair waiver because the cost of repair outweighed the cost of obtaining a waiver and the problem does not harm the transmission. The service manual confirmed that the transmission should be removed to replace the valve. The Tech II repair shop disagreed with the bad solenoid diagnosis and proposed that they run a diagnostic check on their computer. I didn't bother because I already knew what the problem was.

Inspired by someone who said the transaxle can be removed without taking out the motor, needing the MIL light fixed, and considering the savings in gas mileage that I would get when the TCC PWM did its thing, I decided to replace the valve myself. But I decided first to try to replace the solenoid without removing the transaxle and it worked. So when someone else has this problem here is the procedure. I hope someone is able to make use of it.

PROBLEM:

MIL light on with both codes P0741 and P1860.

TROUBLESHOOT:

Step One: Road test the TCC PMW solenoid valve operation: Operate the car in drive (D) at a constant speed of 50 mph. Leaving your foot on the gas, observe the tach while tapping the brake lightly with your other foot. The tach should go up briefly and then down. The rise is is a result of the TCC disengagment which allows transmission slip. The drop is because your car slowed down when you taped the brakes. You can also see the tach drop when the TCC engages after the test.

Step Two: Test the TCC PWM solenoid valve on the transmission side of the AT inline 20-way connector with an ohmmeter. There should be 10-15 ohm of resistance. The two terminals are U and T, which are the two pins to the right on the upper row when viewing the connector with the alignment tab to the right. If there is zero or infinite ohms resistance the solenoid is most likely bad. The wiring between the connector and the solenoid could also be shorted or open. (In my case there was zero ohms.)

Step Three: If the solenoid and wiring on the transmission side are good, look at the wiring on the engine side of the connector. When viewing the connector with the alignment tab to the left the connectors are the two left holes on the upper row. There should be no voltage with the ignition off and voltage with the ignition on and the car not running. Disconnect the C2 connector at the PCM and check for shorts from the upper left or T terminal and other wires or to ground to verify the wiring is OK.

Step Four: If the wiring and solenoid are good, then look into the PCM.

FIX:

To replace the TCC PWM solenoid with the transmission in the car. Verify that there is enough room to get your fingers between the transaxle side cover and the car body, because after moving the side cover, you will need to get at least one finger in there to press in the hairpin.

Remove the parts required to get at the side cover and everything between the side cover and car body. You will need good access to the upper rear corner of the side cover. Remove the upper engine mount in the left front wheel well. The lower bracket can stay in place if the frame studs are removed from inside the engine compartment. Loosen the side cover and catch just over a quart of transmission oil that comes out. Move the side cover open as far as possible. It cannot be removed. The TCC PWM solenoid is located at the upper rear corner and is attached with a hairpin that is just behind it. You should be able to feel the end of the hairpin with one finger. It will move up and down easily. You can see the end of the hairpin with the aid of a mirror on a stick.

Pull out the hairpin with a pick or bent needle nose plier. If you use a pick it will fall to the bottom of the side cover where you must retrieve it. Inspect the solenoid. Mine had a hairline crack in the solenoid plastic because it was old and brittle. It was probably due to expansion and contraction due to heat. I verified the operation of the TCC clutch with a drive test so the turbine shaft seals must be working.

Now for the fun part. Replace the solenoid. Wrap a piece of tie wire once around the end of the hairpin. The hairpin should slide out of the loop easily. Then run the end of the tie wire thru the hole between the end of the hairpin and the tie wire so that the hairpin is held in place. Pulling the end of the tie wire out of the hole will allow the tie wire to release from the hairpin later. With the hairpin dangling from the tie wire you can get the end of the hairpin started in the hairpin slot and get a finger on the end of the hairpin, then pull the end of the tie wire out of the hairpin and the tie wire will come loose. Use a gentle push on the end of the hairpin to install it and confirm the installation with a mirror.

Reassemble the car and add just over a quart of new transmission fluid.

mdmbaby
07-07-10, 07:29 PM
This is great information and much appreciated. Can you please provide a photo or drawing of the hairpin and tie wire that you describe? I'm not sure what you mean by the 'hole', pulling the tie wire and then releasing it from the hairpin. Here is a drawing with a retaining clip which is what you might be referring to as a 'hairpin':
http://portalgarden.com/solenoid.jpg

Thanks again for the post and information.

2001_Seville_SLS
07-08-10, 10:07 PM
Here are the photos that you requested. I used a piece of white electrical wire to simulate the hair pin, retaining clip, or as it is called in the solenoid installation instruction sheet 'spring-clip'. You will need to bend the wire a little different to get the spring-clip into position. I bent them for clarity of the photos. I used 16 gauge tie wire, but any wire that is bendable and stiff enough to hold its shape will work.

I have been wondering if anyone else will use the method. It is a lot easier than pulling the transaxle.

mdmbaby
07-10-10, 12:12 AM
Thanks for the photos.

I found a place that will do a full service on the transmission and replace the solenoid and neutral switch, filter and fluid for $800. He said that on a '99 Deville, you have to drop the transmission which means taking out the front end bracket, etc. More work than I'm willing to do and for that price, it's only about $700 more than the parts alone.

Domino1968
07-11-10, 02:36 AM
Great tip 2001 Seville SLS!!! Your method sounds very do-able. I have a few questions about your procedure:
1. How much clearance did you have after cracking open the transaxle case?
*I am assuming not to much if you are saying just enough to get one finger in, i hope it might be more like two fingers.
2. About how long did it take you to complete the whole job?
3. Also, how long did it take you to put the pin back in?

2001_Seville_SLS
07-12-10, 01:57 AM
The clearance you will have is the clearance between the side cover and the sheet metal at the inner fender. I used a bent o-ring pick to remove the clip and it fell to the bottom where I could retrieve it. A PITA. Use the wire or a long bent needle nose to control the pin when you remove it. I can remember touching the pin with a from each hand.

I did the whole job on a Saturday. I spent a lot of time trying to get the spring-clip back in before regrouping, taking a break, and out-thinking the clip. Your time will be spent removing the side cover and the things in the way of the removing side cover.

It took less than a minute to install the clip using the wire. After having fought it for an hour or two before regrouping, it was too easy.

2001_Seville_SLS
07-14-10, 11:58 AM
1. The clearance you see between the side cover and the inner wheel fender is the clearance you will have.

2. I did the whole job on a Saturday. It took me longer because I spent a significant amount of time trying to get the spring-clip back in before I took a break, regrouped and came up with the wire method. It think it will take about four hours to do the job again.

3. It took less than a minute to install the spring-clip using the wire.

2001_Seville_SLS
07-14-10, 12:40 PM
Here is some additional information to add to the following sections in post one.

PROBLEM:

Do not use this procedure if you have P0741 but P1860 is not present. P1860 tests the electrical circuit. P0741 tests an expected response in the hydralic circuit that may or may not be caused by a bad TCC PWM Solenoid. If P1860 is not present then the electric circuit which includes the TCC solenoid is almost certainly ok.

When P0741 is the primary cause the vehicle may be experiencing additional symptoms such as surge or chuggle. This is a different problem that is described in the GM service bulletin, Subject: Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On, Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0741, Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Excessive Slip, Transaxle Chuggle, Slip/Surge (Inspect/Replace Internal Transaxle Components) #04-07-30-034 - (08/06/2004)

See the thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/149834-information-p0741-p1860-1998-a.html


TROUBLESHOOT:

Step 3.1 Verify that the TCC switch at the brake pedal is operating correctly. It switches a B+ power signal form IGN 1 fuse to both the TCC and Cruise Control. Test the switch by verifying that pressing the brake pedal will release the cruise control. A loose switch can bounce around and cause the TCC Solenoid to engage and and disengage randomly.

Step 3.2 Test the circuit from the switch to the PCM by checking voltage at PCM C2, terminal 80. With the ignition ON but not running there should be B+ voltage that turns off when the brake pedal is pressed. The B+ signal must be present to allow the TCC Solenoid to engage.

mitchjagger
07-14-10, 06:55 PM
Did you have to remove the transmission fluid cooler lines or the coolant reservoir?

ibm4mad
07-15-10, 12:27 AM
I have not done this procedure yet (still debating it) but one tool that may be of assistance is an extra-extra long pair of needle nose pliers. They are somewhat inconvenient to come by because not every auto part store / hardware store will have them but I got a pair with long "tongs' --- gosh, the actual metal "needle noses" were almost a foot long. Makes it easy and great to grip things down long distances. Great to have around the shop for when you drop bolts in tough or hot places.

Marco
08-13-10, 06:13 PM
Is this method feasible on the 00-05 Deville? IOW, is it the same amount of room(or lack of it) in which to work?

Anyone here done it w/o dropping the engine?




2000 base deville

Master Loafer
08-27-10, 04:48 PM
Did you have to remove the transmission fluid cooler lines or the coolant reservoir?


I am having this same problem now. I posted a little over a month ago about having transmission fluid in my radiator and when I replaced it and was having the engine flushed, they found they needed to flush transmission also. I verified this by seeing the milky tranny fluid. They flushed everything and even removed transmission pan to clear the filters/strainers, whatever you call them... :) ... When my boss (a former Ford certified mechanic) hooked up his diagnostic thing and found these 2 codes about 2 weeks after I had the above work done. One of them said (Pending) ???? Don't remember which code. I will get him to run it again Sunday night at work and let you peeps know. I do know now that my overdrive is gone. I used to run 2000 RPM at 70MPH... now its 2000 RPM at around 50MPH which makes my drive to work boring. I work 38 miles away (ONE WAY)...

SliceOfLife
09-11-10, 08:44 PM
1. The clearance you see between the side cover and the inner wheel fender is the clearance you will have.

2. I did the whole job on a Saturday. It took me longer because I spent a significant amount of time trying to get the spring-clip back in before I took a break, regrouped and came up with the wire method. It think it will take about four hours to do the job again.

3. It took less than a minute to install the spring-clip using the wire.

What about the side cover gasket? Does the side cover come off enought to replace the gasket if necessary? Was it necessary to replace the gasket when you did it?

2001_Seville_SLS
09-13-10, 09:26 PM
Slice of Life,
I used the original side cover gasket and torqued the bolts to specs in three phases. There were no leaks. It is possible to change the gasket if required, but I would just take care not to damage the old one if I did it again.


Mitchjagger,
I removed the fluid reservoir, but don't remember messing with any transmission fluid lines.


Marco,
I didn't drop the engine. There has been at least one other guy who has performed the procedure. If my memory is right, I think it was on a Deville.

Master Loafer
10-18-10, 02:30 PM
I just typed you a 500 word PM and it wouldn't let me send it....LOL.... Anyways, if you could contact me via email, I have a question about my 2001 Deville. It is giving out the same codes. email is :simsters@sbcglobal.net
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I have a question about the road testing part. Thanks !
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If I don't hear from you, I will post a thread with my story and maybe you peeps can help me out there. I am off this week and need to fix my car.
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Thanks for any and all help !

gadgetman1966
11-10-10, 11:59 AM
My fathers car 2000 Deville, has the P1860 code and the P0741 code. It has been like that for 3 years. Of course Caddy and and place he took it said new tranny.
It does surge and chuggle but very very seldom.
I checked the resistance for the TCC solenoid and it is 0.
I want to test the TCC engagement but have no RPM gauge (digital dash) is there another way to test the TCC.
I definately need to check this especially when it surges and chuggles.



How do I perform the TCC test if I have no rpm gauge?

gadgetman1966
11-15-10, 01:56 AM
Could you be more specific as to what needs to be removed to get at the side cover. 2000 Deville Northstar

gadgetman1966
11-15-10, 03:33 PM
My fathers car 2000 Deville, has the P1860 code and the P0741 code. It has been like that for 3 years. Of course Caddy and and place he took it said new tranny.
It does surge and chuggle but very very seldom.
I checked the resistance for the TCC solenoid and it is 0.
I want to test the TCC engagement but have no RPM gauge (digital dash) is there another way to test the TCC.
I definately need to check this especially when it surges and chuggles.



How do I perform the TCC test if I have no rpm gauge?

Da found it, press the info button and tach is displayed.

TCC is not engaging.
RPM does nothing on the Test.

tiny580
01-09-11, 11:01 PM
Great Forum!

I thought i would reply and let you know that this worked for me with one exception. I could not get the clip back in and i dropped the motor/trans cradle down to gain access. There are accually only 6 more bolts and you need 2 floor jacks 2 jack stands and a helper to put the steering column back together. Be careful not to turn the steering wheel while the motor is down or you will ruin the clock spring. Be careful of the Rear O2 sensor wire, rear brake lines, and the main brake lines to the ABS pump.

My TCC PMW was burnt on the end. defently junk. Got my new one at my local tranny shop. They had it in stock. (fits many GM trans and is a common issue)

2000SevilleSTS
03-17-11, 11:39 PM
Dear 2001_Seville_SLS,

You have provided a solution to one heck of a problem I inherited recently. I am in New Jersey and my 2000 Seville STS with 108,000 miles just failed inspection (light came on as my wife was in the inspection line, who would have believed it!). Code DTC P1860 (no others) caused the failure, all else ok. I was able to get my hands on a GENTEC analyzer and saw the writing on the wall as the freeze frame information listed the circumstances of the failure. One line made me read and weep, "TCC Duty Cycle Short To Volts -YES." I can be in denial and keep checking the wiring but the sad fact is that the electrical spirit of my PWM Solenoid has gone to the automotive heavens. I have read your posts in detail and believe I have nothing to lose by trying your procedure. I am on the road for a few weeks so I will not be able to get back about my results until next month. Either way, you will have a post by the end of April (end of inspection sticker). Thanks for taking the time to provide so much feed back with such details. I was studying the coolant overflow/recovery tank and thought that it would definitely have to be removed. Worst case scenario, the engine will have to be dropped anyway, I have nothing to lose.

I am a little irritated by so many dealer customers not being to get definitive diagnostics. General Motors has detailed diagnostic routines which should nail this problem within one hour of testing. I only needed five minutes with the GENTEC scanner. The DTE Freeze frames had all of the information glaring in front of me. When the GENTEC scanner showed me a "Short to volts- YES", the PCM is working and providing voltage in order to get a short. The next line states "TCC Duty Cycle Open/Short to GND - NO" and this shows that their are no ground faults and the circuit is not open. Any experienced tech can go through the motions of double checking a harness at this point, but the same harness has just gone through 108,000 miles and ten years of wear and tear without shorting out or opening up, the writing is on the wall, bite the bullet and go after the PWM Solenoid. That is what I intend to do.

SliceOfLife
03-25-11, 02:04 PM
Slice of Life,
I used the original side cover gasket and torqued the bolts to specs in three phases. There were no leaks. It is possible to change the gasket if required, but I would just take care not to damage the old one if I did it again.


Mitchjagger,
I removed the fluid reservoir, but don't remember messing with any transmission fluid lines.


Marco,
I didn't drop the engine. There has been at least one other guy who has performed the procedure. If my memory is right, I think it was on a Deville.

I've been reading up on this issue and intend to try your technique as soon as it warms up outside. According to my, admittedly poor, notes, I got the 1860 on 22DEC09. Since I did not cite the 741 on that date, I'm pretty certain it didn't show up until a short time after the 1860. Since I haven't had any transmission performance issues, I'm confident that the 741 is most likely a side-effect of the 1860.

I have a couple of questions, though. Is the TCC solenoid the only thing that comes out? At what point in the extraction process do you disconnect the electrical connector? Did you service the O-rings at all, or does the new part come with new ones? If you can only get a finger from each hand in there, how did you pull hard enough to overcome the O-rings? I am imagining that the solenoid is pulled out toward the rear of the car, but that the rearward side of the transmission housing is in the way, so that it must be pulled out rearward and then taken away toward the driver's side fender in order to clear the housing. But there's only a finger's width of space between the housing and the side cover in which to finish removing the solenoid. It would seem there would be considerable risk of dropping the solenoid inside the housing. But since you didn't mention any such issues, I figure I must be imagining this incorrectly. Could you clarify my conception of this part of the process?

dgb100946
06-27-11, 10:05 PM
This procedure is golden. Do it carefully and exactly as described, and it works like a charm. We did it on a 2000 deville. Our only issue was a leak in the gasket upon reassembly between bottom front two bolts, and we replaced the gasket. Still a small drip. Any suggestions?

starfox86
08-21-11, 09:21 PM
Going to try this way over the weekend at my shop. Usually we pull the motor down to do this solenoid. I will let you know how it turns out.

Bob Laross
09-05-11, 09:52 AM
Man, am I glad that this thread is still avail. Im performing this right now on my 2000 sls, taking a break from the "hairpin" lol. Going to get wire to try the "wire trick"

Domino1968
09-06-11, 09:23 PM
LOL...I feel, I mean, I "felt" your pain! For me, that seemed like the hardest part of the whole repair was putting that damn pin back in. Good luck and keep at it!

bigtone
09-09-11, 06:55 PM
I just did this job today on my 01 Deville. You guys are not kidding about that clip. The other cross was the one motor mount bracket bolt. If they only made it 1/4" shorter. I shortened it before I reassembled, made it much easier. Other than a slight coolant leak from the back "quick connect" connector, it's running fine now. hats off to the original poster that described this method.

rwilly
09-27-11, 07:05 AM
I hope iI am Replying right.I have 01 Seville STS.I got the same codes as you described P0741 and P1860.I have test drove this car several times and evey time
the tach moves just like you described.Even in city driving at 40 mph i can feel like a small lockup with the tach lowering.It is not a harsh shift if thats want you to call it
You can barely feel it.I am still getting great gas mileage around 18.5 to 19.5 in the city.It downshifts properly and shifts smoothly.you can barely feel it.The car has 114,000 mles on it but you cant tell it by the way it runs.Quick as hell with no slippage or anything.My question to you is it possible that the brake switch could possibly cause this ERROR code.i Plan on doing it soon replacing the TCC soloneid.But every where I read it brings up the brake switch.Was just wondering if the switch could have anything to do with it since it does seem to tie into the electrical system with this.I know it sounds stupid but would it be good advise to replace it also or just a waste of money and time.By the way Thanks a Million for all the advise on this problem. Just a small note Seems like Cadillac should have did a recall on this soloneid since there seems to be quite a few people getting stuck with it and the cost.

jdpilot
02-07-12, 12:11 PM
8621086211

Hi,

Just wanted to say thanks for the post. I just completed the job and it went just as described... Yes the clip was a bear but doable. Didn't even bother to do the dianostics... went right for the solenoid. It was burnt at the electrical connector... got the solenoid from NAPA for $50.00. Here is a couple of pictures of the bad solenoid. Had to remove the CV Axle and the motor/trans mount to get to remove the mount bracket stud. Also used a pair of Hemostat sisors to get the clip in place. Again this thread was very helpful...... Many Thanks

glover
02-07-12, 09:30 PM
Just curious to see if anyone has had this problem re-occur after replacing just the solenoid. The solenoid burns up due to an internal leak in the tcc apply circuit snd causes excessive slippage. As some of you may have noticed the goldish looking material in the bottom of the side pan; thats actually the tcc material coming off the plate

SliceOfLife
02-08-12, 07:23 PM
8621086211

Hi,

Just wanted to say thanks for the post. I just completed the job and it went just as described... Yes the clip was a bear but doable. Didn't even bother to do the dianostics... went right for the solenoid. It was burnt at the electrical connector... got the solenoid from NAPA for $50.00. Here is a couple of pictures of the bad solenoid. Had to remove the CV Axle and the motor/trans mount to get to remove the mount bracket stud. Also used a pair of Hemostat sisors to get the clip in place. Again this thread was very helpful...... Many Thanks

Tell me more! I'll be trying this in a couple of weeks. I'm going to assume for the time being the difference between your deville and my seville is the reason you had to remove the drive shaft. But, I have the replacement solenoid, and its kind of big. Was it a problem getting the old one out and the new one in? Did you reuse the old gasket, and, if so, did you clean it, with...something? I assume you've had no leaks there. Did you do anything special to prep it for reassembly? I have a pair of hemostats, too, that I thought might be perfect for the job, so it's good to hear you used them successfully. So, did you not utilize the wire loop setup pioneered by the OP?

Is there no locking mechanism on the electrical connector? From what I've seen it just plugs on/off. Did you use the hemostats to unplug and plug this electical connector, too? How did you determine how much trans fluid to add back? I'm very interested in anything more you could say about your experience.

Al17/11
04-22-12, 06:25 PM
Does anyone know what the GM part # is for the TCC PWM solenoid?

eaglevision993
11-23-12, 07:49 PM
Hi,
as of today I am also stuck with the p1860 and p0741 codes and I assume it is the solenoid.
Already ordered one at rockauto and plan to do the job next week.

It is a 2000 Seville STS with 55k miles.

As I am in Germany I have to do the repair myself anyway because only dealerships know their ways around the N* overhere and I after our new 3000$ windshield I assume the TCC solenoid will be in the same ballpark at the Cadillac dealer.

Well, I hope the outlined way of replacing the TCC works as fine for me as for you guys,...Just to make sure it is the solenoid I will check the resistance tomorrow. But chances are it is the TCC anyway.

Any new tricks are well appreciated.... I still have the weekend waiting for the parts...

Best regards
Benjamin

----------

AC Delco parts no. is 24227792 btw.

SliceOfLife
11-24-12, 08:17 AM
I tackled the job unsuccessfully. There was one cover bolt I couldn't get to without removing the drive shaft, which I wasn't prepared to do at the time--especially since there was some doubt in my mind that that would be enough. I'm inclined to go along with the guy who said he had to drop the engine a bit to get at it. Good luck.

eaglevision993
11-24-12, 11:27 AM
The video on youtube says to remove the left side motor mounts to tilt the engine.
It is a tight fit, but I have small hands so I ´ll give it a try.

eaglevision993
11-25-12, 10:36 AM
Ok Update:

I removed the old TCC solenoid today. The new one is in the mail tomorrow so I started the project.

The removal was quite straight forward and I did some videoclips which I will upload on youtube when I am done and edited them.

Removing the 2 bolts of the master cylinder and setting it aside facilitates the view of the solenoid and it also gives you more clearance between the frame and the side cover. About half an inch more and you really want that have inch I tell you....
When I removed the hairpin clip I used a pincet and a small pick up magnet you would use for bolts to retrieve. So the hairpin has no chance to fall inside the tranny.

The old TCC solenoid connector was almost burned off and crumbled when I removed the harness connector so the solenoid seems to be the obvious cause here.

Hopefully the hairpin goes in as easy as it went out but I guess it will keep me busi some time tomorrow.
Otherwise this repair is not as hard as it seems but good tools and small hands help alot.

eaglevision993
11-25-12, 01:14 PM
I decided to upload the video as part 1 and part 2.
So part 1 covers the disassembly and part 2 reassembly.

Part 1 is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moVNToSluKw&feature=youtu.be

eaglevision993
11-26-12, 03:11 PM
Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px3yKygwOa0&feature=BFa&list=ULPx3yKygwOa0

OTTO
02-09-13, 06:48 PM
Taking this on this here weekend. Got the old one out, it was crispy, new one in.
Cover 90% on. Bolt/stud at back that motor mount bracket goes to is being a bitch.
I'll tackle it tomorrow. Local trans shop wanted $2000.00 to do the repair.....HA!
Thanks for all who posted

OTTO
02-10-13, 04:08 PM
Test drive=successful=no more check engine light.
Two clips left over.
Where do these go?
103692
I also lost a clip for the air cleaner. It went PING and flew off to parts unknown.

Submariner409
02-10-13, 04:18 PM
Fuel rail to fuel line safety clips.

www.gmpartsgiant.com (http://www.gmpartsgiant.com). Your car, model, year, system, subsystem. Opens a text page. More INFO tab opens parts diagram keyed to text. You'll want to find that air filter adapter retainer clip. It's lying down on the lower air deflector. 13 pull-center plastic rivets. Break one and spares on the Help! racks at large parts stores or at a Fastenal outlet. (You're not the first and you'll know better next time :lildevil: )

OTTO
02-10-13, 05:20 PM
Fuel rail to fuel line safety clips.

Safety is highly over-rated.......back out to the garage.

OTTO
02-10-13, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the info. Amazing how loose the fuel lines were on the rails.
Clips attached correctly I hope.
103704

OTTO
02-10-13, 06:06 PM
Looked again for the air filter clip, no joy.
I will get the clip soon and get 3 more pull-center rivets.

----------

New Genuine GM 25043286 Air Cleaner Intake Clip Retainer
$7.99 shipped on ebay and on its way.

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New Genuine GM 25043286 Air Cleaner Intake Clip Retainer
$7.99 shipped on ebay and on its way.

RippyPartsDept
02-10-13, 06:52 PM
i think ive got some of those air box clips in our NOS drawer
get in touch if you need some OTTO

OTTO
02-10-13, 07:38 PM
Thanks, Chris. Already placed the order, I'll let you know if they're wrong but, looked like NOS parts in the bag.

RippyPartsDept
02-10-13, 08:12 PM
cool

OTTO
02-13-13, 04:42 PM
I failed the emissions test!
Learned about drive cycle (http://www.obdii.com/drivecycle.html) the hard way.
I'll drive her some more, be sure to do all the stuff listed and go back again.

Is there a way to tell if the components that were not ready are ready before I go back?
*Evaporative Control System
*Heated Oxygen Sensor
*Oxygen Sensor

Submariner409
02-13-13, 04:49 PM
Some of the emissions sensors need several successful (no fault/no excess emissions) start-run cycles to set the necessary ready flags in the OBD-II system. Either perform the complete drive cycle or drive the car normally for a week of commuting, with its starts and stops.

Any way to tell ??? some aftermarket scanners will show a "ready" message when all is right, and so will a ScanGauge-II - www.scangauge.com

RippyPartsDept
02-13-13, 04:54 PM
some obd tools will tell you the readiness
like this one apparently
http://www.amazon.com/Autel-MaxiScan-MS300-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B001LHVOVK/
it seems to be one of the less expensive ones that will tell the readiness

OTTO
02-13-13, 08:25 PM
The Caddy is my weekend car. I have a service truck supplied and gassed by the company I work for that I bring home.
I'll do the Drive Cycle for a few weekends then go to Autozone and see if their scanner can tell me I'm ready.
I was wondering if there's a way to run or read the codes without using a scanner to see if the flags are gone and the sensors are ready.

As always, thanks for the help. :yup:

Submariner409
02-14-13, 09:43 AM
Our system won't tell you emissions systems status - but if there are no Current P codes then the system should be ready for test - BUT several emissions codes (some P codes) need several "clean" start-run cycles to set the ready flags, and I don't know how many successful start-runs it takes to get rid of the H designation for emissions.

Did you look at the ScanGauge ?? It's a handy piece of engine monitoring and diagnostic tool .............

RippyPartsDept
02-14-13, 10:07 AM
i forgot about the ScanGuage II ... it does readiness as well, right?

OTTO
02-14-13, 06:13 PM
I don't really do enough automotive work to justify the purchase of a scanner. Also we're saving for a down payment on a new house so funds are tight.

Submariner409
02-15-13, 12:17 PM
i forgot about the ScanGuage II ... it does readiness as well, right?

Chris, Yep, it has 5 buttons on the face - when in the "4 gauge readout" mode you can use one button to scroll to the scan/codes/ready/not ready screen - on the fly.

The unit is not simply a scanner - it constantly monitors 12 engine, transmission, and car functions and you can set it to readout any 4 at one time. I set mine to: Intake Air Temp, Coolant Temp, Ignition Advance and MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure = vacuum = load). It is also a comprehensive trip/fuel/cost calculator.

If you are a button pusher you can program in an additional 4 or 6 gauges, depending on what your OBD or CAN system monitors.

RippyPartsDept
02-15-13, 01:40 PM
does it have a cable so you can mount it anywhere?
i would assume yes, right?

Submariner409
02-15-13, 06:46 PM
Yep, it comes with a 6 foot cable - OBD connector on one end, ethernet click-in connector on the other.......... and the new SG-II models can be daisy-chained together for a constant 8 gauge digital readout. Stick-on Velcro strips also supplied.

OTTO
02-16-13, 06:10 AM
There's an auto shop nearby that will scan the Caddy let me know if she is emission test ready (no charge).
So I'm off to Rockford & back this morning with stops here & there to complete the drive cycle.
Just for the fun of it, I'm going to try this cheap scanner out. Comes with software and will link to my laptop via bluetooth.
Super Mini ELM327 v1.5 OBD2 OBDII Bluetooth Adapter Auto Scanner Android (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Mini-ELM327-v1-5-OBD2-OBDII-Bluetooth-Adapter-Auto-Scanner-Android-/281059595464?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr&hash=item41707514c8)
$12.40 with free shipping, what's the worst that could happen?

----------

I'll let you know how the test goes and how the scanner works.

Probably should start a new thread and not add more to this old one.

RippyPartsDept
02-16-13, 08:53 AM
as long as you're not planning on using the ELM with an apple device
it work with torque app (which is android only)
and it also has a cd to install software on a laptop, palm, or windows phone
but torque is probably the best

OTTO
02-16-13, 12:09 PM
Yaaaay! I passed the emissions test! I feel so much better now, I can once again look down on the Prius-driving people with a smugness thet thought belonged only to them.
The ELM will be bluetooth connected to my Panasonic Toughbook CF-30.
No wimpy tablet or smartphone for me.

RippyPartsDept
02-16-13, 12:23 PM
ok cool

OTTO
02-16-13, 02:45 PM
103932
The beginning of the trouble....
End of trouble was solved by the bottle opener and a 12 pack of Stella Artois

OTTO
02-16-13, 02:47 PM
I donated $20 to the site this morning.
Do I get a supporter label?

Submariner409
02-16-13, 03:14 PM
I donated $20 to the site this morning.
Do I get a supporter label?

Donations is donations. Go into your settings and/or profile and find the paid subscriptions tab. That will open your existing subscription level and expiration date. Then scroll down to what level/time period you want to pay for.

OTTO
02-16-13, 08:23 PM
No sweat. I paid $20 for advice that saved me $2000
I call that a bargain

pjc0715
07-10-13, 09:01 PM
Guys,

I am in a bad way here with my 2002 Deville. With only 85k miles on it, I thought I got a good deal on it for $4200. It's been nothing but trouble. So far I've had replaced front rotors, wheel bearings, inner and outer front driver side tie rod ends, a window regulator, both valve cover gaskets. It still needs an oil pan gasket and I have P1189, P0741 and P1860. On the advice of a friend who does most of my work for me on the cheap, I had decided to cut my losses and try to sell it before I totally lose my butt. But I wanted to take a crack at this procedure myself to aid in selling the car. Who wants to buy a $3500 car with a check engine light that will cost $2k to fix, not to mention the oil pan gasket being another $2k. Welp, with the help of my handy-but-not-a-mechanic-uncle and his plethora of tools, we took a crack at it today. It's been a nightmare. We have spent nearly all day just wrestling with the bolts for the motor mounts and side panel of transmission. Finally, 8 hours and two trips to the store for more tools, we got it cracked open. I can see the solenoid, sure enough the connector piece is cracked off .. looks melted. I get in there with a mirror and for the life of me I cannot see the pin. I'm thinking maybe it's already out and down in the bottom. I'm looking and feeling around from the bottom and can't see anything. My uncle looks, my 14 year old son looks, I look again and we cannot see the hairpin anywhere. Determined not to turn back now, I think maybe it came out and is down in there so let me go ahead and pull out the solenoid. So I am tugging at it and it spins but wont budge. So I see the little notches that look like they might be for a flathead screwdriver, to pry it out. And I do that. And the freaking thing breaks! So now part of the solenoid is still stuck inside the receptacle for it. I'm looking at it with the mirror and stuck in there as well, i see what appears to be a couple of strips of metal. Yep, it's the hairpin, and it's stuck in there good. I manage to get in there with some needle nose pliers and yank it out. It's mangled all to hell, I don't know how it was in there but apparently it was indeed there though none of us could see it, and my yanking out the solenoid with it still in place caused it to break in there. I don't think I can get the rest of the solenoid out (or can I???) and my hairpin is bent up. So right now my car is in pieces in my uncle's driveway which is 1.5 hours from my house, with half of the broken solenoid still in its receptacle and I don't know what the heck to do.

Please someone take pity on me and give me some advice. At this point my non-mechanic mind is thinking that the solenoid didn't work anyway, so just try to put everything back together and pray that it will continue to run like it has, with the codes still tripped but a running vehicle that I can maybe try to sell for a couple thousand bucks. Or am I to the point of having to tow this thing to the dealer, them wanting $2-3k to fix my mess, which won't be worth it, so the car will be a total loss. I bought this car in March and on top of the $4200 I paid (from a dealer), I'm already about a $1k into it in repairs. So if it costs me $2500-3k to get this fixed just to sell it, I'm now in ~$8k and can hope to get maybe $3500 private party sale so net loss of ~$4500. Or junk it now and net loss of ~$5500. Or maybe I can put it back together with a broken solenoid but a car that will run and sell it for ~$2k and net loss of ~$3500. Alot of if's and round numbers, but I think my math is pretty close.

I know I'm kind of rambling here but these are the thoughts going through my head after now having been at this for nearly 11 hours out in the N. Carolina heat. Please, someone take pity on me and either give me some hope or the bad news, but any expert advice would be most appreciated!!!!

Thanks
Phil

glover
07-10-13, 11:03 PM
As far as leavn it in im not sure depends on if it opened up a hydraulic channel in the valve body which would cause a major pressure loss n whatever it controlled. I would probably keep workn at it with a small pick gently to see if u can work it outta there. You will have to get a new retainer though. Good luck man

speelerr
09-01-13, 09:19 AM
Hello all, Thanks for all the advice.
I finished the installation of the new TCC solenoid. The hairpin was the hardest part.
Unfortunately, the side transmission filter came loose and fell down in the side cover. Has this happened to anyone or just really bad luck. I think I will finish putting everything back together and just hope for the best. Thanks again to everyone.

----------

Hello all,
I got the p0741 p1860 combo on my 2002 Deville with 175K miles. Thanks to all the great advice from everyone, I decided to try to fix it my self. In about 3 hours I had the TCC solenoid removed. The hardest part was finding and removing the locking pin. Even harder than that was getting the pin installed again. But after about 1 hour it finally was installed correctly. By the way, the old solenoid was broken at the electrical connector so I was happy to see that.

Now for the very bad news. At some point while I was trying to install the pin, I heard something drop in the side cover and some more tranny fluid started pouring out. I realized right away that the main filter had come loose and fell down in the side cover. I can move it with my fingers but I can't push it back up to install it. I can't believe that this filter is not secured with a bolt or pin. I stopped at this point to think everything over.
So do I just put everything back together and hope for the best? The last time I changed the fluid and bottom screen filters was at 100K and everything looked good. I refilled with Dex VI. My plan was to drop the bottom pan and change the fluid/screens after I replaced the TCC solenoid so I will see how dirty the bottom is. Back to my big problem. Is it possible that the bottom filters and magnets catch most of the debris and that the side filter is just a backup/good luck filter. I can't believe that the side filter can clog up much if it is not serviceable.
Well, I am just reaching for anything that I can. I can't afford to pay someone the drop the tranny now, which is why I did my own solenoid R&R in the first place. I am so disappointed how this has turned out. I will finish putting everything back together tomorrow. Up until now, the tranny has been flawless with beautiful shifts. So now I don't know how long the tranny will last with out the side filter installed. I don't think lowering the sub-frame myself is really an option. Any comments or ideas would really be appreciated.
Thanks again to everyone for your help.

sunsetcoast
09-28-13, 01:53 PM
Any update?

charleswrivers
10-17-13, 09:52 PM
On a similar vein, I had posted in another section of the forums but I've been rather successful thus far... I see the solenoid, I have enough clearance to pull the old on since the new one can just slip in the gap... I have electrical connector disconnected but... I cannot find the clip. I don't see it around the solenoid like in the exploded diagram earlier in this thread. I don't see it *anywhere*. The solenoid is securely fastened... somehow in there. I haven't seen it anywhere looking w/my inspection mirror. Any help would be most appreciated. I just want to slap the new one in, put her back together and put all this (fun) behind me. I've done the shocks, struts and a coil cassette on the car and this has been harder and more time consuming then all of them combined.

speelerr
10-18-13, 11:43 AM
Hello. I spent a lot of time looking for the clip. Turns out that you just cannot see it. I was never able to put my mirror in a position to see it. I started to pull on the solenoid like crazy and luckily I didn't break anything. This is not a job to do if you are frustrated or tired. I finally found one picture on the internet that showed a side view of a 4T80E tranny with the cover off. In the picture, the clip is partially covered by the electrical wires. The exploded diagrams are ok, but can't replace a real picture. Turns out the clip is about 1/4" forward (towards the front of the car) of where I thought is was going to be. So it's in a perfect spot where I just could not see it. There is also a bolt right above the clip that obstructs the view. Now that I had a picture to look at, I was able to use my finger to find the clip. Once again, I was never able to see the clip when it was installed. The only time I was able to feel the clip was if I put my finger next to the electrical connector of the solenoid and then rub my finger towards the front of the car. It feels just like the curved end of a paper clip. It will also feel loose so you can swing it up or down a little bit, but it will not spin around or fall off so you don't have to worry about that. Then you remove the clip using something like a dentist's pick or small hook type tool. You might have to decided what works for you. Once again, finding the clip took me a long time and then I remember that removing it was easy. It most likely will fall to the bottom of the side cover. Do not panic like I did and do not start banging on the cover. This is how I knocked the main filter loose (that's another story). The good news is that I must have dropped the clip like 10 times trying to install it and it always fell all the way to the bottom of the cover (never got hung up inside the tranny). Since the cover is aluminum, maybe you can use a magnet to slide the steel clip to the opening of the bottom of the cover. I think it's just the coating of tranny oil that is sticky and not letting the clip fall out on it's own. But banging the cover is NOT the thing to do. Back to the solenoid, now that the clip is removed the solenoid will slide out towards the firewall. Slide in the new solenoid until it feels firmly in place, but make sure not to push on the electrical connector sticking out of the solenoid.

Here's a tip that I came up with: At some point while I was looking for the clip and I was desperate to gain some extra working room, I decided to file down part of the side cover. I noticed the side cover has 3 or 4 fins that run up and down the side. These fins hit the body frame when you open the cover. So I grabbed a long flat course hand file and started filing. I did put two bolts back in the side cover and snugged it back up to make sure that I didn't get any metal filings into the tranny. Clean things up before opening the cover again. If I recall correctly I only filed the fin furthest back to the firewall and then the next one in front of that one. You don't have to file the whole fin down. I kept a jack under the engine (with the left engine mount removed) so I lowered the engine as much as possible. You'll notice that a small part of the two back fins are really the limiting factor. I think I was able to gain another 1/4" of room to work which felt like a mile.

Now it's time to install the clip. You have to decide for yourself, but I had to start fresh the next day to be good and calm. You will not be able to see anything and at best you can only have one finger on the clip, so being frustrated is not going to cut it. This is coming from someone who hates to stop a job in the middle. Anyway, sounds like everyone had a slightly different way of holding the clip and getting into position for installation. What worked for me was using a tie-wrap for a garbage bag. This is a strip of thin plastic with a wire running down the center. The trick is getting a good hold of the clip but then being able to let it go after it's installed. It took me many attempts simply by trial and error. I really can't begin trying to explain how to it. You are basically trying to feel that you got the open end of the clip started in the slot, then you press it in with your finger or a tool. I can't remember what I used to push it in, but I don't believe it was my finger. I just couldn't get enough force on it with my finger. Remember that you can try to practice outside of the car using the old solenoid and see what method is working for you. Once you get the clip in, remember to connect the electrical connector (you might be so excited that you forget).

Good luck to you.

153937

charleswrivers
10-18-13, 08:37 PM
I did quit for the night. The picture is awesome and should give me the push I need to get this job done this weekend. Thank you so much! It isn't what I had expected from the diagrams I'd seen earlier at all... But still in a logical spot. I felt the bolt and saw it with the mirror, but missed the pin.

pjc0715
10-26-13, 07:31 PM
Update for me, I wasn't able to get the broken piece out. I put everything back together and drove it back home the next day, it got home without a problem. It's been sitting ever since, until today. I got a new retainer clip from the Caddy dealership and cracked it open again today. I was hoping pressure would push the broken piece out, and it may have partially, but something is still in there and so far I've been unable to get it out. It was getting late so decided to start fresh tomorrow. Here's another picture I found that I hope will help others (and me when I go to put the clip back in).

156161

pjc0715
10-28-13, 06:51 PM
Finally fixed the bastard. I couldn't get the wire trick to work but finally was able to get the clip in place with two index fingers on either side. Everything seems to be running right and no codes on the dash.

Scarabeo500GT
12-25-13, 12:19 AM
Deleted post to just move on to the update...

Update: I think I got the clip in using another new method. Once I put my car back together I can test everything and see how it turned out! Stay tuned...

Update 2: The TCC Solenoid is Fixed, Check Engine light is off and the Seville has now passed smog! The Repair took me a good week and was Very hard with the limited tools I had but it can be Done and YES that Clip was a bear and it took almost all the skin off my Fingers to get it back in but in the end it was worth it. Money saved on another repair thanks to you guys so THANKS a Million! :) Now off to try the 2" pipe cap deal to plug the hole in the Air intake line so I have a way to check Tranny fluid without that box in the way, then on to the brake job...

charleswrivers
04-14-14, 08:06 PM
Ugh... 3 or 4 months of trouble free operation... then... BAM... 1860. You have *got* to be kidding me.

derone
07-05-14, 10:18 PM
Well add another one to the list...I just completed the TCC solenoid replacement w/complications. The filter came loose as soon as the cover was moved away from the body of the transaxle. Good thing is, I found the cradle can be lowered enough on that side to completely remove the cover and put the filter back in place. I bought a filter kit during the job, but it had the wrong filter in it. The 'neck' on it was at the end of it instead of about 1/3 of the way down on it. Go figure..., even the Helms factory manual has the wrong picture of it. It took two days, but if I had to do it again, I'd lower the cradle right away, and probably could do it in half the time. I should have broke out the air tools too. There's alot of heavy bolts in this job. I did use the baggie tie to get the retainer pin in, but looking back at it, I should've gone straight for the cradle once the sheet metal filter came loose. Anyway, initial testing shows this $40 procedure did rectify the problem. The old solenoid connector broke away from its body like the pics already posted. Many thanks to the folks here for another cure to the Seville blues.

codewize
07-27-14, 10:15 PM
Just started getting these codes on my 02 Deville. The past few weeks I've noticed what felt like some bucking while under sight load on the hi-way. Codes just started today.

I seem to be good on the road test part (Step 1). Tach goes up and down as you say it should. I'll have my mechanic check the wring the next time it's in the shop. Thankfully the car just got inspected last week after a fight with secondary air injection problems.

I'll keep you posted

UPDATE: My mechanic opted to not look at this and advised me to go to a transmission shop. One of which we both know and trust. Just out of curiosity, whats the time involved in using this method as apposed to pulling the drivetrain?

codewize
08-06-14, 08:58 AM
Dealer quoted me $890, transmission shop quoted $1000. Both said there's no way do to the job without pulling the drivetrain. The transmission guy said hes tried and broken 2 steering racks in the process.

Submariner409
08-06-14, 09:15 AM
Kicker is, you may also in the torque converter/transmission output shaft seal replacement business.

P 1860 alone says it's the control solenoid, do-able with the microsurgery procedure....... BUT the P 0741 also says the TCC itself is faulty/leaking, so out comes the converter.

When my solenoid went, the car did the same intermittent highway speed bucking feel, as the TCC went in and out, then the solenoid finally failed - BUT I never had the P 0741 code - never. Only P 1860 - and that was simple to clear on the fly, using the ScanGauge-II. The TCC failure cost me about 1 mpg. Clear the code, out goes the light, and it resets on the second start-run event after reset, over 43 mph.

codewize
08-22-14, 08:56 AM
That's pretty impressive. The axle seal on the driver side does leak. Is that what you're talking about? The last time I encountered that it wasn't pretty. The entire final drive assembly had come apart causing a complete rebuild.

Interesting thing about that incident is there were no symptoms other than the leak


Kicker is, you may also in the torque converter/transmission output shaft seal replacement business.

P 1860 alone says it's the control solenoid, do-able with the microsurgery procedure....... BUT the P 0741 also says the TCC itself is faulty/leaking, so out comes the converter.

When my solenoid went, the car did the same intermittent highway speed bucking feel, as the TCC went in and out, then the solenoid finally failed - BUT I never had the P 0741 code - never. Only P 1860 - and that was simple to clear on the fly, using the ScanGauge-II. The TCC failure cost me about 1 mpg. Clear the code, out goes the light, and it resets on the second start-run event after reset, over 43 mph.

Submariner409
08-22-14, 10:44 AM
Not the axle seal - the TCC input shaft seal. The TCC solenoid ports transmission fluid pressure to the converter input shaft ports - that pressure sets the viscous clutch in the converter. P 0741 says the solenoid (monitored by P 1860) is working but the clutch itself is not. If/when the solenoid electrical connector stub (336) breaks off, then you get the P 1860 code and maybe P 0741.

The DTC test sequence for TCC operation is: Solenoid first; if good, then it waits for the 43 mph road load TCC set. If good, no codes. If the solenoid is faulty, P 1860 sets and the system does not "look" for TCC engagement. If the solenoid is good, it then "looks" for TCC lockup - if no go, P 0741 sets.

codewize
08-22-14, 11:21 AM
Thanks Sub, you're a star. So there's a seal on the input shaft which if leaks causes pressure loss etc etc. I imagine that's not a huge repair at this point once you're into that far. LOL

derone
09-05-14, 08:47 PM
The transmission guy said hes tried and broken 2 steering racks in the process.

The steering rack is mounted to the cradle. You must disconnect the rack from the steering shaft joint, by removing one cinch bolt when the cradle comes down either on one side or both.