: E85 flex-fuel conversion for STS-V?



clark
06-16-10, 08:36 PM
Anyone know what it would take to convert the V to E85, preferably set up "flex fuel" style where you could switch between gasoline & e85 at any time? I would be very proud to buy fuel made in America's heartland instead of the Middle East! Plus, the higher octane and lower burn temp could allow a more aggressive tune and a smaller pulley for a big power boost.

550HP STSV
06-16-10, 09:01 PM
all you would need is a newly designed engine.

BlownV
06-17-10, 11:16 AM
Incorrect.

All you need is the make sure your fuel lines and pump are compatible with the E85 (SS works but is not necessary) and increase your fuel injector size to compensate for the higher flow rate required to run E85. You will of course need to retune as well.

On forced induction E85 can yield an enourmous amount of power compared to 91 or 93 octane gasoline. It especially provides more TQ due to the lower cylinder temps.

CIWS
06-17-10, 02:28 PM
Anyone know what it would take to convert the V to E85, preferably set up "flex fuel" style where you could switch between gasoline & e85 at any time? I would be very proud to buy fuel made in America's heartland instead of the Middle East! Plus, the higher octane and lower burn temp could allow a more aggressive tune and a smaller pulley for a big power boost.

Most of our imported oil comes from North America (Canada), the #2 slot goes back and forth between Mexico and Saudi Arabia.

Looks like the # 4 slot will now be the Gulf of Mexico . . .

PGA2B
06-17-10, 03:25 PM
http://raceone85.com/

coach123
06-17-10, 04:05 PM
I would easily convert my car to E85 if I had stations around me that actually sold the stuff. Just remember that your mpg will go down dramatically if converted.

PGA2B
06-17-10, 05:23 PM
5%-20% loss in MPGs

clark
06-17-10, 08:31 PM
MPG does drop, but the fuel is cheaper, so MP$ is about the same. In IL e85 is about $.90 less than 93 octane. But even if the MP$ is a little worse, I'll happily pay it for domestic fuel and added power. Any tuners tried this yet?

EChas3
06-17-10, 10:55 PM
Why take food and waste it in a car? If it were worthwhile, it wouldn't require our tax dollars to make it look like a good deal.

Besides, it's a lousy fuel; hard on equipment, costly to make & transport.

CIWS
06-18-10, 08:23 AM
Why take food and waste it in a car? If it were worthwhile, it wouldn't require our tax dollars to make it look like a good deal.

Besides, it's a lousy fuel; hard on equipment, costly to make & transport.

Not that I'm an E85 fan, but to answer your initial question ? To get our asses off enough fossil fuel so that we are not dependent upon it from foreign sources. But that will come from multiple solutions, not just one.

ewill3rd
06-18-10, 09:01 AM
Long story short, it would be very expensive to do it right and thruthfully illegal (from a technical standpoint) to try to convert it to E85. There are NO EPA APPROVED conversion kits for any car.
Not to mention a complete waste of time.

If you want to prevent foreign oil manufacturers from getting your money, buy a bicycle. :lol:

Sorry to be blunt.

CIWS
06-18-10, 10:47 AM
Long story short, it would be very expensive to do it right and thruthfully illegal (from a technical standpoint) to try to convert it to E85. There are NO EPA APPROVED conversion kits for any car.


Thanks for the info ewill :thumbsup:

BlownV
06-18-10, 01:49 PM
Incorrect again. To be blunt here I think it is a good idea to do some more digging before questions get answered that can provide people false information.

http://domesticfuel.com/2008/05/21/first-e85-conversion-kit-approved-by-epa/

I do agree that E85 can be hard on equipment if the proper materials are not used and it could probably use some refinement. Unfortunately, without the proper infrastructure in the country to support E85 this level of engineering will never occur since the profit just won't be there.

As far as costly to make a transport...again the cost to make is a function of the infrastructure and quantity. As long as gasoline is around in bulk then this will always be true. However, with an end of fossil fuels you will be amazed by how cheap in comparison the E85 option would turn into.

IMO the conversion is not expensive either. Cheaper than our quote for the snakebite upgrade. I ran E85 in my last vehicle without having to do anything extra because I had already upgraded my injectors, fuel lines and pump to performance components. If your looking for the performance side of the fuel, not the clean emissions part, then E85 is an amazing alternative...why do you think the LeMans cars are switching over and the corvette race team kicked so much ass a couple years ago.

BlownV
06-18-10, 01:52 PM
http://www.rsportscars.com/chevrolet/2008-chevrolet-racing-corvette-c6r-e85/

ewill3rd
06-18-10, 02:48 PM
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420f10010.htm


E85 & Conventional Vehicles
Consumers should never use E85 in a conventional, gasoline-only vehicle. This can lead to a range of problems, including not being able to start the engine, damage to engine components, illumination of the check engine light, and emissions increases.

It is technically possible to convert a conventional gasoline vehicle to run on E85; however, such conversions would likely be illegal unless they are certified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). To date, EPA has not certified any E85 conversions. In addition, converting a conventional vehicle to E85 may violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For more information on the vehicle conversion process, please visit EPA's Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf (22 pp, 152K)


Of course that is only from the EPA's website, so I guess it is outdated.
They are EPA approved for ONE SPECIFIC YEAR AND MODEL OF CAR.

The process for certifying a modification like this basically requires conversion and submission to EPA for testing just as the manufacturer has to do when a car is new. .

E85 is a joke, a bad one, the only thing E85 has been successful in accomplishing to date is starting more idiotic arguments and causing food prices to skyrocket.
Both of those things I could live without.

As for your second link, I don't see any license plates on that car for street use, and there is a big difference between building a car that will run on E85 and certifying one for EPA emissions standards.

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
If the OP had a 2006 Dodge Charger 5.7 Hemi, this would be fantastic news!

550HP STSV
06-21-10, 10:12 AM
E85 is worthless. I will now close the thread. Thanks

Bigdawg58
06-21-10, 10:50 AM
E85 is worthless. I will now close the thread. Thanks

I second that!:stirpot:

Bigdawg58
06-21-10, 10:52 AM
Incorrect again. To be blunt here I think it is a good idea to do some more digging before questions get answered that can provide people false information.

http://domesticfuel.com/2008/05/21/first-e85-conversion-kit-approved-by-epa/

I do agree that E85 can be hard on equipment if the proper materials are not used and it could probably use some refinement. Unfortunately, without the proper infrastructure in the country to support E85 this level of engineering will never occur since the profit just won't be there.

As far as costly to make a transport...again the cost to make is a function of the infrastructure and quantity. As long as gasoline is around in bulk then this will always be true. However, with an end of fossil fuels you will be amazed by how cheap in comparison the E85 option would turn into.

IMO the conversion is not expensive either. Cheaper than our quote for the snakebite upgrade. I ran E85 in my last vehicle without having to do anything extra because I had already upgraded my injectors, fuel lines and pump to performance components. If your looking for the performance side of the fuel, not the clean emissions part, then E85 is an amazing alternative...why do you think the LeMans cars are switching over and the corvette race team kicked so much ass a couple years ago.

Are you a corn farmer by chance?:rolleyes:

clark
06-22-10, 09:44 AM
I'm really saddened to see the apathy and ignorance about our dependence on foreign oil. It's the main reason we're at war in Iraq. And is sucks billions of dollars out of this country.

Ethanol poses a significant opportunity to lessen that dependence, and put Americans to work, and improve the environment. Then, as an added bonus for us horsepower junkies, it offers substantial boost increases because of it's higher octane and lower burn temp. For anyone who wants the facts about ethanol, check out http://growthenergy.org/ethanol-issues-policy/myths-about-ethanol/.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, though, because much of the rest of the American public seems to feel the same way. If there were more American demand for ethanol and flex-fueled cars, the automakers would respond quickly, since it's easy for them to tweak the design of new cars to be flex-fueled. Too bad it's much tougher to convert existing cars.

So back to my original post; are there any tuners interested in converting my STS-V?

ewill3rd
06-22-10, 10:01 AM
Putting our dependence on domestic agriculture actually is disasterous for the environment. It uses a tremendous amount of land and natural resources.

The opinion that we are in Iraq for oil is so seriously misguided that I don't even know where to begin, so I won't. That will lead to an argument that just can't take place on this forum so there isn't much point.

E85 is an interesting technological advance that may help us in the long run, disposing of something that works just fine to adopt something that our infrastructure is not ready to handle is reckless. Carmakers are working feverishly to adopt new technology but throwing away something that works for something that attacks other areas of our economy is just... well.... dumb.
We have plenty of oil resources right here at home that we could be utilizing to help control costs while the bugs are worked out of alternative technologies until they become affordable and turn into logical solutions. It seems evident to the people I know where the bottleneck is to utilize the resources we have right under our noses. That's all I will say about that also.

I am aware of the propoganda on that website, and one fact that you cannot escape is that it requires more energy to create ethanol based fuels than you get out of it.

Honestly I don't have a problem with Ethanol if it is used in a vehicle that was designed to run on it.
I'd say probably 90% of the people I know with flex fuel vehicles don't even know their cars can run on it, and they wouldn't know where to buy E85 if they had a map, which also means they aren't even using it.

Understanding this stuff is my job, that's what I do.
I weigh the FACTS and I explain to people the REALITY of the situation.
What it boils down to is that you want to make your car run on a fuel that it was never designed to run on, and sure, it CAN PROBABLY be done if you want to spend the money.
The final word is, that unless it is EPA tested and approved, it is technically illegal.
It will take money, and the results you get will leave you with an untested solution that will devalue your car, even if it does knock half a second off your track times, or whatever performance gain you hope to achieve.

UnsafeAtAnySpd
06-22-10, 12:44 PM
e85 is about 105 octane. It's race fuel you can buy at the pump pretty much. You're going to need about 40% more fuel, so as long as your pump, lines and injectors can handle the extra flow, you should be good with a tune to compensate. Turbo I4 cars convert all the time.

As for the politics behind e85, I think it's lame and there's already way too many farm subsidies in this country as it is.

We should all just drive nuclear powered cars. :D
...or at least electric cars of which the electricity is supplied by nuclear power.

CIWS
06-22-10, 03:53 PM
We should all just drive nuclear powered cars. :D
...or at least electric cars of which the electricity is supplied by nuclear power.

http://www.outatime.it/public/40-mr_fusion.jpg

bobs-sts-v
06-22-10, 06:15 PM
That only looks good on the back of a DeLorean - not goin' on my V!!

Bob

CIWS
06-23-10, 09:05 AM
That only looks good on the back of a DeLorean - not goin' on my V!!

Bob


If it could make my car gas free and fly I'd wear that thing on my head while driving. :D

ewill3rd
06-23-10, 09:55 AM
Everyone seems to have a complete misconception about octane ratings.
Higher octane doesn't mean the fuel is better, it actually means the fuel is worse.
It is used in high compression engines to deter pre-ignition. In other words, the MORE volatile lower octane fuel will ignite under just the pressure whereas the higher octane fuel will not. Things like superchargers and turbochargers or engineered high compression engines as are used on things like motorcycles, need this supression factor. This is what, over time, has equated high octane with high performance.
Using high octane fuel in a car that was engineered for a lower octane will in fact REDUCE its performance and DECREASE its efficiency.

E85 may have potential in a high performance engine but converting a car designed to run on low octane conventional fuel in the hopes of getting more performance is counter productive. E85 may me less expensive but it also takes more fuel to do the same work. (in a conventional engine)

LITTLEELVISDAN
06-23-10, 10:29 AM
Um. E85 yields less hp. My Escalade can run on it but I never do. It is cheaper but doesn't yield near the performance as 93 octane.

LITTLEELVISDAN
06-23-10, 10:35 AM
Basically I'm agreeing ewill3rd. I'm not comparing octane, I'm comparing the same 6.2 motor using gas or E58.

deedubb
06-23-10, 10:49 AM
Been running E85 on my Maggie'd CTS-V for a year now or so. Made an extra 60RWHP using it and have had no problems what-so-ever. I've read more pros and cons than I can keep track of, I guess it's something you have to figure out for yourself. Everyone seems to have an opinion on it that is either way left field or really right field but it works for me and gave me what I needed (more power, cooler IAT's and a perma-grin). Perhaps that is why they've been using it some racing applications for years now.

LITTLEELVISDAN
06-23-10, 03:21 PM
You are telling us racing alcohol is E85 exactly? I can take my E85 escalade, drive up to Road Atlanta, pull up to the racing alcohol pump and fill up? And that's the same as going to a gas station that sells E85?

deedubb
06-23-10, 06:11 PM
Im not sure if you are asking me or not, but I use whatever they sell at the regular gas stations. Around here it's like $2/gallon

550HP STSV
06-23-10, 09:47 PM
uhhh... so what happens if you run out of gas and theres no E85 station around, deedubb?

ewill3rd
06-23-10, 10:29 PM
One of the major factors in E85 use is exactly that.
If it is not readily available the vehicle must be able to compensate.
This requires wide band O2 sensors and complicated control software.
While I am sure deedubb has done his homework, from a technical standpoint his car is in violation of federal law and likely uses specialized parts.
From a service technician's perspective it would be a nightmare. I would assume he has custom components installed. So when one breaks, what do you order parts for? (I would worry more about that than where to buy gas)

You are right dubb, most people are stuck on one end of the spectrum or the other.
I choose to stick to the "do it right" end, and leave the fabrication and component testing to someone with deeper pockets and corporate resources.
As a professional I always recommend that people stick with tried and tested components for more reasons than one.

I am not saying that this modification cannot be done, I am not saying it shouldn't be. I am saying that you should consider what you want and buy exactly that.
Don't buy a '68 Volkswagon bus and try to turn it into a Lamborghini.
Gathering a hodge podge of components from this place and that place and trying to make something work that in the end will be difficult to service (in the event of component failure) and STILL illegal (mind you we do emissions testing here) is just such a waste.

Also dubb, are you saying that you gained 60 HP by simply changing from pump gas to E85? (with all the mods already in place)

LITTLEELVISDAN
06-24-10, 12:37 AM
Ok. I called my bro. He races a blown 502 alcohol motor on his drag boat. E85 is a blend of alcohol and gas, just a higher % than our standard 10% methanol gas. I think 15% eth to 85% gas. Drag engines run 100% methanol.

Gallon for gallon alcohol takes twice as much to make the same power. Hence larger injectors and fuel supply are needed for alcohol. For example, if a gas engine takes 1 gal to make 100hp then a 100% methanol engine would require 2 gallons to make the same power. The gain is drag engines don't have radiators or water cooled. They don't generate that much heat.

So my E85 escalade will have less performance running E85 unless the computer adjusts and delivers more volume because I will be putting in 5% less gas. E85 is a greener burning fuel not a power additive. E85 users are more green thinking, not power and fuel mongers, so I highly doubt the computer adds even more fuel to compensate.

Ewill3rd correct me if I am wrong but E85 cars are basically set up for the corrosive methanol and tuned to tolerate the different %'s.

deedubb
06-24-10, 02:46 AM
Yeah, if I run out of E85, i'm shit outta luck. Now there are some dual flash PCM's you can get now to quickly flip a switch and run on say 91 octane and utilize dual tunes when needed. My car is not a daily so I purely drive for pleasure and don't worry about running out of E85. I gained my 60rwhp by adding the external fuel pump (no increase in HP), the actual E85, remapping the injector cycle as part of a custom tune which included increased timing without any knock. I think we got 7 more degrees of timing out of it. I already had the blower, intake etc before the E85 switch. I do use more fuel and my MPG has taken a BIG hit but again, I don't care about fuel consumption or pricing as it is my leisure car. So for my situation, it works great. Others obviously would have to assess their situations individually. I currently have more "go-fast" parts waiting to be installed (Over Driven crank pulley) but this will require larger injectors as I am very near full duty cycle and don't want to risk starvation. I have the parts on hand, just have been lazy to get them installed.

LITTLEELVISDAN
06-24-10, 04:26 AM
Deedubb. I'm not throwing rocksmyour direction. If a car like yours or a race engine are mapped for the increase there is nothing wrong in my opinion. Use E85 or pure race fuel. I'm all for it. I'm more addressing the sts-v guys wanting to change to E85 thinking there are huge gains to be had out of it. Sts-v wanting to be green will loose HP, those looking for more hp and cooling would better served with Nos

ewill3rd
06-24-10, 08:22 AM
Dan,

Yes, there are another group of parts for flex vehicles including the wide band O2's to detect the range of ethanol mix in the fuel as the engines run.
The original systems used an inline fuel composition sensor to determine alcohol/ethanol content. Modern systems are much more complicated and can calculate the ethanol content based on normal engine sensor readings and the software is much more complex.

Dubb, you kind of proved the point I was trying to make.
When you start modifying a car like that it works fine if you have the luxury of being within a fuel tank ride of home and you have spare parts on hand.
I'd say if you did most of those mods on pump gas you would have gained just as much, but I know there would be limitations on compression, boost pressures, and timing advance with a lower octane fuel that isn't pump ready save for E85.
My issue is taking a daily driver and doing that many modifications, driving it for 5 years and then having a component failure such as an injector or auxiliary pump.
Is the company that made the ones you bought still in business? Are the parts readily available or are you stuck in the Arizona desert for 2 weeks waiting for someone to find something that "will work" only to find half way home that it won't?

These types of modifications affect reliability in the long term.

I am sorry to be such a pest about this. I just try to avoid people destroying their cars because of misinformation they read on the internet.
Having been through a lot of stupid mistakes as I have matured in this business I like to offer my perspective when I see something that I think needs to be said.

deedubb
06-24-10, 11:42 AM
No offense taken :) I know E85 isn't for everyone and I'm not trying to push it on anyone, just giving my experience and real world feedback with on a V platform. I know every modification is another step from reliability and I was fully aware of that before I had anything done to the car. It's not under warranty and is all fixed on my dime anyway. That said, I still don't anticipate the car failing due to an E85 conversion. Parts remain readily available as they are all very common parts. As I said above I only added the walbro inline fuel pump (very common) and the tune. The bigger injectors I have are very common although not yet installed. So I don't really have to have spare parts on hand, not anymore than the average person with a modded V, E85 or not. And there is no way I would have made 60rwhp on pump gas just by adding an external fuel pump and a tune. I couldn't have advanced timing that much on regular gas without knock.

ewill3rd
06-24-10, 10:33 PM
Just to reiterate, I am giving hypotheticals.
I am sure that is understood. My main point I think has been made and you just reiterated it.
Most modifications of this nature increase maintenance costs, and reduce reliability. I like to see cars last for a long time and stay the way they were when they were built.
I'm not against mods, per se. I do expect people to realize that when you change something you really can affect it's reliability.

I have said before if you can imagine a large balancing scale with performance on one end and reliability on the other... as one goes up, the other will go down.

BlownV
07-08-10, 12:51 PM
Being overseas and off the forums for almost a month, I am just now getting to read this thread of non-experience-related opinions and it is depressing to say the least. I like how only one other person in this thread has stated that he has personal experience in running E85 and stated the FACT that he gained 60 hp by doing so. Thank you deedubb for providing real information and I respect that you are not trying to convince anyone...just providing data. Every other person that has knocked it down or made puns about corn farming has not given any personal experience to justify it...rather that they BELIEVE or CONCLUDE this or that based on their interpretations, expectations and personal priorities. I do not care about the politics of this topic and I am not trying to tie E85 to the war in Iraq or justify it as a means of helping our economy at home here. I am looking at it from a performance modification standpoint...simply.

I'll just toss out the following which are PROVEN FACTS...the Koenigsegg CCXR (which I regard as one of the most amazing performance vehicles in production) makes 806bhp on 93 octane and 1018 bhp on E85...according to Koenigsegg. Do you really think that a 25% gain in power output is BS?

I have run E85 on my old vehicle, a 99 GSX making 723awhp on VP C16. Personally I made as much power running E85 as I did running 91 octane plus meth/water injection...gaining ~80awhp from the E85.

Yes, E85 is not as clean burning as 91 or 93 octane pump gas. In fact most flex-fuel vehicles recommend that you run a tank of gas through every few tanks of E85 to help clean the fuel system.

Yes, except for few exceptions converting a non-flex fuel vehicle to run on E85 is illegal in regard to the EPA. That doesn't mean this will not change.

Personally I do not think that is what this thread is about though. There are a lot of things that people do to their vehicles that are illegal but I don't see anyone making the arguement that NO ONE should tint their windows because its illegal. Second, you can easilly get through emissions by just running gasoline during testing. I view it as the same thing as putting a test pipe on instead of cats when you go to the track.

As far as mods to accomodate the E85, if you are considering spending $1500+ to port/upgrade your blower and only make another 50rwhp then I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on. The only mods to accomodate the E85 are in the fuel system itself: pump, injectors, lines (assuming you are already doing aftermarket mods that require a tune anyway). For my old vehicle I already had to upgrade all of these components just to make more power anyway so there was NO ADDITIONAL work involved. Just fill the tank with E85 and tune accordingly.

Please also note that all of the components that I replaced in that fuel system lasted the entire time I owned the vehicle while many of the OEM parts failed and were replaced. Please tell me what is unreliable or a nightmare for the technician to replace as far as a walbro or bosch fuel pump, stainless lines and larger injectors???? All of these are performance parts...are you telling me that the performance automotive industry is going to collapse in the next few years and stainless fuel lines will become impossible to find?

Sorry to bring up a dead topic but I am pained to see that people are probably reading this forum from other groups of automotive enthusiasts and laughing at us. I talked to my carpool neighbor this morning who owns a corvette stingray with an ls3, among other cars, and is a member of ls1tech.com and many other forums and he simply smiled and said "let em pay more for race gas then and burn out their cats with the lead since they obviously wouldn't pull the cats off due to the EPA." My college roommate from Texas ran E85 exclusively on his GSX and gained over 100wtq over pump gas by running it. Jump on any other forced induction forum and read up about their PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with E85.

ewill3rd
07-09-10, 09:42 AM
I don't have any personal experience with it because I know how goofy an idea it is :lol:

Seriously though, the point I tried to make and that the person with experience pointed out is that this is not a drop in power mod.
You can't just pull up to the pump and pour in E85 and get more horsepower, in fact you would get less if you did that.
He got more horsepower by altering a lot of control software and making some physical modifications.

If he is on a trip through the Arizona desert (or New Mexico for you law haters) and your car breaks down and someone has to get parts to fix it, THAT would be the parts availability issue I am talking about. If you break down and can get to a GM dealer they might have what you need in stock for a factory car. If you can't, then you are waiting for someone to figure out where you got what you installed (unless you have a list in the glove box) and locate an equivalent or fabricate something on the spot, like chewing gum and mechanics wire.

Lots of people don't have an issue with violating Federal Law, like the Federal Government for example. If you choose to that's fine.
In my line of work I don't encourage people to do that.
That is pretty much all I said.

Honestly, I don't care if people laugh at me for citing facts and trying to give people advice based on experience and a lot of training.
I've been laughed at before and I'll be laughed at again, but my advice is sound.

Do it, don't do it, not up to me. I am just trying to present the facts as I know them and the decision making is up to the individual.

BlownV
07-09-10, 02:05 PM
Of course its goofy...thats why the performance motorsports and racing community is so deeply involved in improving/perfecting it...wait that makes no sense.:cookoo:

I guess our opinions of modifications differ then...to me the thread was about if you could convert our cars to run E85. The answer is yes they can, with very minimal modification. The cost would be about that of the GMPP exhaust system. Pump, injectors (maybe depending on where ours max out at), lines (maybe depending on current material) and tune. With no other modifications you WOULD GAIN HP. I HAVE DONE IT MYSELF. DO YOU NEED DYNO SHEETS? The gains in TQ are even more than HP thanks to the lower cylinder temps. Not saying you are going to make 30rwhp or more without more mods but if people on this forum are willing to pay $1000 for an exhaust that gains maybe 15rwhp then I think the majority would not rule it out. The more things you bolt on after that, the more power you can extract from the E85...isn't that the best type of modification? One that grows with you instead of limiting you?

Now as far as parts...if the pump blows then replace it...I am talking about putting a relatively standard bosch inline pump in place like the 044...its OEM equipment on vehicles with the P/N stamped on the body. If the injectors fail then replace them, they are standard OEM bosch or delphi injectors. If your line breaks well hey! your in luck! You probably have SS lines now and it will be easier to replace them then the stock hard lines. And if you are at a shop that doesn't know how to replace injectors, a fuel pump or fuel lines then you have bigger issues and toss on the deliverance music. Worst case, they replace everything with stock components and you switch to your 91 octane tune and be on your merry way.

Personally IDC about Federal Law when I am on the track.

I have knocked many a thing before I tried it...then I lived and learned.

BlownV
07-09-10, 02:19 PM
Dynos and other personal experience after 2 mins of looking around on the net.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evom-newbie-faqs-forum/407582-e85-vs-race-gas-vs-93-octane.html

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2351459

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_0904_e85_vs_conventional_gasoline/index.html

ewill3rd
07-09-10, 02:28 PM
I'm not knocking anything.
Since you seem to have issues discerning what I am trying to communicate I'll attempt to be a bit more blunt.

It isn't a simple operation.
It requires spending a substantial amount of money.
It is technically illegal
Using higher octane fuel in a low compression engine is LESS efficient, and while I am no engineer I don't see how using something that is harder to ignite without making other changes is going to get you more power but there are things about it I might admit I don't have a complete understanding of.
When you modify things you have to "fix" it with modified parts which may be hard to come by in some situations

I learn every day, but learning how to violate the law and make a car less reliable isn't really a lesson I need.
I did plenty of that kind of learning when I was younger and had more time and money than sense.

Finally, I can see that no amount of fact will persuade you otherwise so I'll just bow out of this one at this point.
I appreciate your perspective, I just disagree with your points.
Best of luck with whatever you do.

LITTLEELVISDAN
07-10-10, 02:19 PM
Sorry to bring up a dead topic but I am pained to see that people are probably reading this forum from other groups of automotive enthusiasts and laughing at us. I talked to my carpool neighbor this morning who owns a corvette stingray with an ls3, among other cars, and is a member of ls1tech.com and many other forums and he simply smiled and said "let em pay more for race gas then and burn out their cats with the lead since they obviously wouldn't pull the cats off due to the EPA." My college roommate from Texas ran E85 exclusively on his GSX and gained over 100wtq over pump gas by running it. Jump on any other forced induction forum and read up about their PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with E85.

Your friends need to read the rest of our threads were we discuss exactly that. Engineering headers WITHOUT CATS. I have read just about every thread here and have never seen anyone talking about running race fuel in their STS-V. Just because they have LS3's or Vettes don't make them any smarter in the world of cars. Sorry to burst their bubble but (ahem!! Personal experience talking here!!!) Vette dealerships and technicians prior to the LS9 ZR1 didn't know how and wouldn't work my STS-V. I was told on 3 different occasions by 3 different dealerships / lead techs. to take it to a Caddy dealer because they had no one trained or able to even start on it.

My point being just like on ANY forum there are smart people and there are not so smart people, including the Vette forum. So throwing rocks our direction, well we all know the glass house clichet.... So just because someone is from a Vette forum doesn't give them a almighty power to "smile and wink wink nod nod" those STS-V guys are peons if you know what I mean.....

No one here said it was impossible to convert to E85, and no one said you wouldn't see gains. What we did say was to see gains you have to provide fuel / parts.... Just like your bleoved German car I can't spell.. Yes they make more power on E85. But what you didn't say was they didn't compare a 1 to 1 situation to get those numbers.. Neither did you in your car's comparison. They made more by adding E85 and more of it by volume so its not really a gas saving option with the same 10 gal tank. Your car example you went from C16 to E85 PLUS you added Water/meth injection. My point being all things being equal and the same 1 gal of gas yeilds more HP than 1 gal of E85.. UNLESS you change out the fuel system and provide MORE volume of E85. Which the German car and my lade have already done. They can ramp up the flow or ramp it down depending on what fuel you use.

sorry for that rant but if you were going to reply in FACTS and start out your post with facts then why interject moronish comments of "friends from a Vette forum" to incite hostility?????? Your post would have served better to leave that part out.


Spelling and typing are not so good today.. I had very little time to post and proof. sorry, no flaming allowed on spelling or grammer.... :-)

BlownV
07-10-10, 08:51 PM
I'm not knocking anything.

We obviously have different definitions of 'knocking' then since the statement 'you know how goofy of an idea it is' falls into that definition IMO.


Since you seem to have issues discerning what I am trying to communicate I'll attempt to be a bit more blunt.

I would prefer everyone to be more blunt as it makes discussions move much faster, however, as you will see I do not believe the issue is discerning your arguement.


It isn't a simple operation.

Maybe to you. To me it is not rocket science, and I have some validity in that statement as I am an aerospace engineer by profession and design missiles for the US military. This is no-where near as difficult as pulling heads, rebuilding a bottom end, adapting a turbo setup or pulling our blowers to have them ported.


It requires spending a substantial amount of money.

Agreed, as does everything with our cars. Compared to an exhaust for our vehicles though the cost is on-par, if not cheaper, than any other mod in reference to HP/$.


It is technically illegal

Also agreed and never argued this point concerning our specific vehicles. Some of us that take our cars to the track, however, are willing to make changes just for those days to gain power.


Using higher octane fuel in a low compression engine is LESS efficient, and while I am no engineer I don't see how using something that is harder to ignite without making other changes is going to get you more power but there are things about it I might admit I don't have a complete understanding of.

True if our engines did not have a blower on them that already requires the timing to be retarded compared to if our engines were N/A. But we run boost, different rules apply and latent heat of vaporization / specific heat / relative octane all have tremendous effects on total performance.



When you modify things you have to "fix" it with modified parts which may be hard to come by in some situations.

This is true in some situations, there is no denying that. If we were strapping on an aeromotive FPR, TIAL wastegate, etc...I would say this applies here but everything I talking about is OEM equipment on other vehicles and even more easy to come by at shops like NAPA, Checkers, Autozone, Advanced, etc because people also use them for aftermarket applications.


I learn every day, but learning how to violate the law and make a car less reliable isn't really a lesson I need.

If there was a change in reliability that I had ever heard about happening I would agree with this. Personally, out of the hundred of people that I personally know, have built cars for (yes I worked as a mechanic at several performance shops in Florida) and have read about on other forums I have never heard of a story of E85 mods decreasing reliability in a case where the installer wasn't the one at fault.


I appreciate your perspective, I just disagree with your points.

And I am sure we will continue to disagree on this but that is the beauty of forums such as this. Its the debates that keep us all sharp and continuing to learn the most IMO.


Your friends need to read the rest of our threads were we discuss exactly that. Engineering headers WITHOUT CATS. I have read just about every thread here and have never seen anyone talking about running race fuel in their STS-V.

Lol, you seem to have missed the point of his statement then since it had nothing to do with cats or race gas. Which BTW, I have run race fuel in my STS-V already...nice to see it not pull any timing even in the AZ heat. The point of his statement btw was that the opinion on here seems to be to go about everything in the most difficult manner possible and think that our cars are something far from normal and unique from any other performance vehicle, so much so that people ignore the lessons learned by others with similar cars. The fact is the mods for E85 are going to be necessary anyway if you try to boost the output of our motors much more than 15-20%. At that point where you already have the pump, injectors and lines to compensate for added airflow/hp, just put some E85 in the tank and make an additional 20% more HP at a fraction of the cost of race gas.



Just because they have LS3's or Vettes don't make them any smarter in the world of cars.

Never said THEY are, but this gentleman also knows his stuff. Having a 7 sec C5 vette as well as his stingray which he built from the ground up himself I think we can have some faith. Of course I built my 9 sec car from the ground up too and no one believe me :hmm:


Sorry to burst their bubble but (ahem!! Personal experience talking here!!!) Vette dealerships and technicians prior to the LS9 ZR1 didn't know how and wouldn't work my STS-V. I was told on 3 different occasions by 3 different dealerships / lead techs. to take it to a Caddy dealer because they had no one trained or able to even start on it.

Dealerships are completely retarded when it comes to anything they don't see on a daily basis. You will get no argument from me on that one. Before I worked at those performance shops in Florida I spent a year at a Volvo dealership as a mechanic and the lack of common sense was astounding.


My point being just like on ANY forum there are smart people and there are not so smart people, including the Vette forum. So throwing rocks our direction, well we all know the glass house clichet.... So just because someone is from a Vette forum doesn't give them a almighty power to "smile and wink wink nod nod" those STS-V guys are peons if you know what I mean.....

Agreed, but he has also read this entire thread and see some of the comments like my personal favorite 'get a new engine.' And he will be the first to tell you that there are people on the forums that he belongs to that know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about cars. That exists everywhere. I was not trying to insinuate that because he was from a vette forum that that alone made him better/smarter/whatever you think I was implying.



No one here said it was impossible to convert to E85, and no one said you wouldn't see gains.

Actually the statement that you wouldn't see gains was made.


What we did say was to see gains you have to provide fuel / parts.... Just like your bleoved German car I can't spell.. Yes they make more power on E85. But what you didn't say was they didn't compare a 1 to 1 situation to get those numbers.. Neither did you in your car's comparison. They made more by adding E85 and more of it by volume so its not really a gas saving option with the same 10 gal tank.

Never once did I claim it to be more economic in reference to fuel consumption I specifically spoke of HP/$. And if you can't spell the german car would you like me to pull the numbers on the ZR1? What I did was compare HP to HP which is 1 to 1 IMO.



Your car example you went from C16 to E85 PLUS you added Water/meth injection. My point being all things being equal and the same 1 gal of gas yeilds more HP than 1 gal of E85.. UNLESS you change out the fuel system and provide MORE volume of E85.

Incorrect, you get HIGHER MPG one 1 gal of gasoline vs 1 gal of E85, not more HP (on a forced induction engine such as ours). I added water/meth injection for reference. The comparison is C16 vs Pump (91 or 93) vs E85. FACT is that you make more power/dollar on E85 than either of the other two.


sorry for that rant but if you were going to reply in FACTS and start out your post with facts then why interject moronish comments of "friends from a Vette forum" to incite hostility?????? Your post would have served better to leave that part out.

Perhaps it would have. Perhaps I should have supplied some background on the gentleman who I spoke with. I guess I was under the wrong impression that individuals on this forum would have more respect for the forum which is really a big brother to us. My apologies.

LITTLEELVISDAN
07-11-10, 12:25 AM
Thanks blownV. I do like a good spirited conversation. Don't get me wrong. I love that German car. I just can't spell it.

on the respect for other forums thing. I have great equal respect for all forums from German to American to Japanese. There are a lot of really smart people on all of them. Most importantly I don't look down at any of them. Even the ricer ones that get a bad name, to each his own.

ewill3rd
07-11-10, 11:33 AM
It's all good, I just don't have much more to say.
:D
I think both sides of the major points have been made and individuals can decide for themselves.