: Customer Paranoia with temp guage - need input from other members-



97EldoCoupe
06-02-10, 02:55 PM
It's been a long weekend with travelling and all.

Just finished two HG jobs for one customer. Wonderful guy- great customer.

Problem #1 - I had serious problems removing the air from the cooling systems on both vehicles. I can usually get it all just by making sure the purge line is clear and have the vehicle running - get it up to temp. The air works its way out on its own, pretty quick. Well both of these cars- it was insane. I could swear the t-stats were not opening. The temp wanted to creep up on both. Finally got it purged, about an hour with each car. BOTH CARS HAD FAILSAFE THERMOSTATS as the owner installed.

Problem #2 - I cannot seem to convince the owner that it is normal for the temp guage indicator to move to the first mark from the right of center (1 o'clock). Some Caddys never move from 12:00, some always kick up to 1:00 when the fans come on full speed and drop back to 12:00. I guess some are dampened considerably more than others. He is worried still about the temp, even though they are not moving past 1:00.

I prefer sticking to AC-Delco thermostats. GM knows what they're doing, Motorad among others sometimes haven't a clue.

Where can I find an article that states that it is normal for the guage to hit the 1:00 mark?

After yesterday, having the customer wait around while I fill the system and try to purge the air from it, I decided I have to do something different - immediately. If anyone knows of a good vacuum fill tool, let me know.

All help will be appreciated-

ryannel2003
06-02-10, 04:17 PM
Two years ago my car had a headgasket job done. Replaced all the gaskets, seals, thermostat, etc. My car has always, always moved around when driving in traffic. It usually goes to one or two ticks over and once the car gets moving and air gets to the motor it will go right back to normal. At first, I was freaked out because I had driven about 10 Seville's and none of them had ever done this. I guess mine isn't as damped as the other cars out there. Only time my car ever went to 1 o'clock was when going up a mountain.

97EldoCoupe
06-02-10, 04:54 PM
My 98 STS routinely goes to 1:00 and then cools back down, in traffic- My Eldo too- Dad's DTS, hardly ever-

the recluse
06-02-10, 05:00 PM
Whenever I install new t-stats I always drill a 1/16 to 3/32 inch hole in the t-stats outer ring. It allows air to blow by and purge even before you get to running temps... HTH

97EldoCoupe
06-02-10, 06:41 PM
I blame the t-stats. Everyone I've spoken to about those failsafe t-stats have horror stories to tell me- either getting stuck open or closed. Recluse - not a bad idea.

Ranger
06-02-10, 09:43 PM
I can't remember the last time I changed a thermostat.

Submariner409
06-03-10, 09:20 AM
"Fail-safe" thermostats aren't. The Northstar 'stat begins at 188 and is fully open by 206. (Right out of the GM shop manual) Fans run all the time any A/C function is called for. Without A/C fans go to SLOW at about 224 and FAST at 236 (or transmission temp of 302).

A stock GM thermostat is all the engines need.

Copy and print this gauge and hang it on the shop wall.................

ponyboyt
06-03-10, 09:41 AM
Easy answer.

If GM wanted the car to stay at 190-200, then the fans would come on full at 201, not at:

QUOTE: Without A/C fans go to SLOW at about 224 and FAST at 236 (or transmission temp of 302).

That being said, i know its ok if the needle breaks away from half. By looking at the picture referenced above, i can tell you my car runs at 199 99% of the time. If i know its ok to run higher, why does it bother ME when it does go higher??

Yesterday sitting at McDonalds in the drive-through the temp went to past the 225 mark. Im guessing 230. It held there, obviously the cooling system id doing its job. Am i paranoid? Hell yes. The fact that it went back to dead center after i drove over 15km/h tells me that something might not be right. I mean come on... those fans move fast. 15km/h isnt all that fast.

BUT! I know my car has issues. The resevoir has a tiny crack in the bottom. It only leaks under pressure, and we all know higher temp = more pressure. That being said, if you know your car is in good shape, then you should know it will take care of itself, and you have nothing to worry about. The red mark is there for a reason, and its way over to the right. Isnt that the worry spot?

97EldoCoupe
06-03-10, 11:23 AM
Submariner - permission to create a new page on my site using the image of the temp guage you posted above?

I will admit myself that after doing the engine work in my '97 Eldo I got nervous when it moved past 12:00 - but it never moved past 1:00, and always came down as soon as I got back on the highway doing 50+MPH (probably even lower speeds) - I've seen so many Caddys since my first experience with HG issues that I don't really think twice about it anymore when the temp hits 1:00.

I want my customers to be assured that when their car leaves my shop, it's ready for a 1500 mile drive if they want. If for some reason the car should ever overheat afterward or leak or anything of the sort it will not be HG related after I'm through with it. I don't replace all of the parts in the cooling system. I replace what I deem necessary- any hoses, seals, water pump, rad if need be, heater core if leaking, etc. I don't believe in having the customer spend more than necessary, but when it leaves my shop it will leave in the condition that I'd be comfortable making a 1500 mile drive with it.

Submariner409
06-03-10, 02:11 PM
JimD was the first CF member to take the gauge, some cardboard to cover the radiator, and (I think) an IR thermometer to get the numbers. He then posted that maybe 3 years ago. I then bought a ScanGauge, set it to show coolant temps, did about the same drill, and modified his numbers a bit.

Before going public, I would ask JimD - it's his idea.

97EldoCoupe
06-03-10, 06:23 PM
OK - I have the guage and the digital read-out on my Eldo so I can compare as well -

I will ask JimD before going ahead with that-

Thanks Sub (Jim) - :)

chp350
06-03-10, 08:36 PM
Jake. I have had two of my eleven cadillacs with the north* read past the 12 postion but the digtal read out was 199 -205.. I always assumed some needle guages read like some gas gauges, not always on the money..Have the customer tell you what the temp read out is instead of the needle postion..jmo

98eldo32v
06-03-10, 11:57 PM
Not that I support every additive ever made, but I know this stuff works.

For the "temp sensitive" people :

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

Submariner409
06-04-10, 09:57 AM
Redline "Water Wetter" will not lower engine temperature below design thermostat limits. If the cooling system on a Northstar is operating as designed, water wetters will have no effect on temperature indication or on temperature swings in response to fan operation without A/C operation.

Water wetters have good use in racing environments with their extremely high coolant flow rates (and most of those water pumps are flow restricted to increase heat transfer), but they have no practical use in a daily driver.

98eldo32v
06-04-10, 02:46 PM
Well it sure worked real good in my car and most of all it kept the entire cooling system spotless.

I had nothing special in my cooling system but my stock water pump, upgraded all aluminum 2 row radiator, stock thermostat. Before the water wetter, the fans would come on idling in south fla traffic. I decided to try that stuff and my car actually ran a bit cooler in traffic and not as much fan operation. The bonus was how clean the cooling system stayed.

That was in a 347 stroker in a mustang that I was constantly pushing to the limit.

Just a suggestion.

98eldo32v
06-04-10, 02:57 PM
It didn't lower the temperature below thermostatically set limits, but it does all this other great stuff......


Water Wetter®

Unique agent for cooling systems that doubles the wetting ability of water

Rust and corrosion protection allows for use of straight water in racing or reduced antifreeze levels in warm climates

Improves heat transfer and reduces cylinder head temperature

May allow more spark advance for increase power and efficiency

Use one bottle for most passenger cars and light trucks, treats 3 to 5 gallons or 13.2 to 15.9 liters. Vehicles with larger cooling systems should use two bottles. Small cooling systems should use 1oz (3 to 4 capfuls) per quart
Compatible with new or used antifreeze (including DEX-COOLTM and long-life versions) to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems
Satisfies ASTM D2570 and ASTM D1384 corrosion tests for glycol-based antifreezes


ABOUT RED LINE WATER WETTER® COOLANT ADDITIVES

Reduces or eliminates bubbles or vapor barrier that form on hot metal surfaces to reduce coolant temperatures by up to 20°

Superior heat transfer properties compared to glycol-based antifreeze

Compatible with new or used antifreeze (including DEX-COOL and long-life versions) to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems

Improves heat transfer and reduces cylinder head temperature

Designed for use with all modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze cooling systems

Cleans and lubricates water pump seals

Reduces cavitation and complexes with hard water to reduce scaling

Does not lower cooling system below the thermostatically-controlled temperature

STSS
06-04-10, 03:49 PM
For the purposes of a N* powered Cadillac, Water Wetter is nothing more than snake oil which helps speed up the flow of cash from your pocket... what it does for a full on strip car doesn't really matter to a bunch of N* junkies.... which this forum caters to.

A lot of things that are "good" for a race car, like running cooler, are not optimum for a daily driver. If the engineers wanted the N* to run cooler, they would have designed it to, there's nothing making them run it at the temp they do.

Ranger
06-04-10, 04:01 PM
I've heard it can also cure male pattern baldness and erectile dysfunction.


If the engineers wanted the N* to run cooler, they would have designed it to
:thumbsup: I'll never understand why everyone seems to want to redesign everything that highly educated and paid engineers designed.

98eldo32v
06-04-10, 05:14 PM
I've heard it can also cure male pattern baldness and erectile dysfunction.


:thumbsup: I'll never understand why everyone seems to want to redesign everything that highly educated and paid engineers designed.

Interesting statement.

Why redesign something that highly educated and paid engineers designed, unfortunately flawed.

Which is why most of us come to these forums looking for "solutions" to their highly paid mistakes in engineering or cost cutting ways which only hurts the consumer in the end.

I guess if Jake at Northstarperformance didn't decide to redesign how the head was to be fastened to this motor I suppose there would be more of them in the junkyard unfortunately.:eek:

Ranger
06-04-10, 09:22 PM
I must be missing something. Exactly what is wrong with the cooling system? What would you change and why? I'm not an engineer, but I am not aware of any problems with it.

97EldoCoupe
06-05-10, 07:46 AM
Thanks 98eldo! :highfive:

Seriously the Northstar cooling system does work very well (so long as the HG's are intact and sealing) - There's a certain temp range where an engine is most efficient and the Northstars are designed to run in that temp range. Too hot and you'll have thermal expansion in the pistons causing more friction, and oil will stop doing its job. I really do think the water pump could spin a few more rpms at idle- the fans may not even cycle on/off as much in traffic then- but our engines were designed to run at cruise speeds, not just idling. Drive as hard as you want and the cooling system can keep up with the demand.

98eldo32v
06-05-10, 08:10 AM
There maybe nothing wrong with the cooling system, but there is obviously some concern about the temperature gauge readings from the cooling system.

After a repair like headgaskets and all the symptoms that are assoiciated with it, one would probably like to see the needle not "creep" towards the "warning track".

It's not like the studs or other repair systems haven't proven themselves per se', but a person would probably feel a lot more at ease if the needle didn't swing over so far at times.

I suggested the redline watter wetter as a possible additive that may help the system do it's job a little better...

I guess it's mind over matter..........

Submariner409
06-05-10, 09:40 AM
The bottom line is that modern coolants (DEX-COOL or the newer green low-silicate types) have an additive package that is more than sufficient to protect the engine system if the coolant is maintained and changed in accordance with service recommendations.

"Water wetters" and various other cooling system aftermarket additives may prove beneficial in a racing environment, but they are absolutely unnecessary in a daily driver. The Northstar cooling system - and any other engine's cooling system nowadays - is more than capable of maintaining engine design temperatures if the system is in proper operating condition. It is perfectly normal for temperature, pressure, and vacuum gauges to move in response to changing engine conditions. It is perfectly normal for a Northstar temperature "gauge" to move toward the 12:45 notch in hot weather/heavy traffic. It is NOT normal for a Northstar (or any other) to overheat, and "water wetter" will NOT prevent overheating: only proper cooling system and engine systems maintenance will.

The notes in the Redline web page, below the "About Red Line Water........." read exactly like the product description of any decent coolant, except that the last line completely negates the first four, and the last line specifically infers that the temperature gauge will therefore move in response to design system temperature changes.

This entire thread deals with questionable thermostats and compromised Northstar cooling system/head gaskets: no amount of water wetter, pixie dust, or magic potion will stop the inevitable loss of coolant and subsequent overheating under those conditions.

98eldo32v
06-05-10, 11:52 AM
Why would you want a product that "lowers" the temperature of the operating system?

I think the whole point being missed here is that the product "helps" transfer the heat better than the anti-freeze alone.

If the operating system is "designed" to function at a particular temperature, we all know (or should at least by now) these engines are dependent on temperature for power production, idle quality, fuel mixture and overall function of that particular setup. Now, if you can transfer the heat better, therefore it should be "dissipated" or lost better. Therefore remaining "cooler" or more "stable" than the "constant" temp flucuations.

I TOTALLY agree, this ISN'T going to keep your car from overheating. Nothing short of a FULLY FUNCTIONING CAR operating correctly is going to avoid overheating. Yet, if it were overheating, isn't there a problem anyway that needs to be addressed?

I thought this thread started out about some people's concerns about the temp gauge rising a bit too much?

If this happens to transfer the heat a bit better to "aid" the cooling system in doing it's job. Why not try it? If the heat is being transferred better, therefore it's being "lost" faster, IN THEORY the gauge should not move as much.

Isn't what this thread was concerned about in the first place? How far the temp gauge was moving and the concerns over it?

tateos
06-05-10, 12:08 PM
Sub - you used the word "infer" when I think you meant to say "imply". I always thought "infer" meant to deduce or reason, and that "imply" meant to suggest. I know you to be a man of above average intelligence, so I checked it out, and was enlightened by what I found on Dictionary.com - I thought you might be interested also:

Infer has been used to mean “to hint or suggest” since the 16th century by speakers and writers of unquestioned ability and eminence:

"The next speaker criticized the proposal, inferring that it was made solely to embarrass the government."

Despite its long history, many 20th-century usage guides condemn the use, maintaining that the proper word for the intended sense is imply and that to use infer is to lose a valuable distinction between the two words. Although the claimed distinction has probably existed chiefly in the pronouncements of usage guides, and although the use of infer to mean “to suggest” usually produces no ambiguity, the distinction too has a long history and is widely observed by many speakers and writers.

Submariner409
06-05-10, 01:01 PM
Better statement: From the product description, if I infer that water wetter will not reduce the cooling system below thermostatically controlled temperatures, then I imply that gauge motion is normal. :lildevil:


............besides, none of us cain't read no English if it's wrote wrotten.

Ranger
06-07-10, 11:39 PM
Why would you want a product that "lowers" the temperature of the operating system?

I think the whole point being missed here is that the product "helps" transfer the heat better than the anti-freeze alone.

If the operating system is "designed" to function at a particular temperature, we all know (or should at least by now) these engines are dependent on temperature for power production, idle quality, fuel mixture and overall function of that particular setup. Now, if you can transfer the heat better, therefore it should be "dissipated" or lost better. Therefore remaining "cooler" or more "stable" than the "constant" temp flucuations.

I TOTALLY agree, this ISN'T going to keep your car from overheating. Nothing short of a FULLY FUNCTIONING CAR operating correctly is going to avoid overheating. Yet, if it were overheating, isn't there a problem anyway that needs to be addressed?

I thought this thread started out about some people's concerns about the temp gauge rising a bit too much?

If this happens to transfer the heat a bit better to "aid" the cooling system in doing it's job. Why not try it? If the heat is being transferred better, therefore it's being "lost" faster, IN THEORY the gauge should not move as much.

Isn't what this thread was concerned about in the first place? How far the temp gauge was moving and the concerns over it?
Sorry, I've been away for the weekend. I think that is the point I was trying to make. Why do you think they need to run cooler? They where designed to run at the temperature they do and seem to do so efficiently. I fail to see the need to lower the temperature. It seems like a common misconception is that cooler is better.


I thought this thread started out about some people's concerns about the temp gauge rising a bit too much?
I think that is part of the problem and GM recognized it. If you had a REAL temp gauge in the car, you would see all sorts of temperature swings. It's normal, but the average Joe does not know that and when they see it they panic. That is why GM dampened the hell out of these gauges. When you get one that is a tad more accurate, people panic.

turboguy52
06-08-10, 12:11 AM
:mad2:I just sent one of the nastyest letter to CADDY you've ever heard. I've had 2 CADDY N* engines which run like H**L but are junk I've been broke down one too many times> IT's time we stood up to the GIANT GM!!
IF I can get enough people behind me we can get a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT and get help with these junk engines. PLEASE join me and we can do this!!!
Just thank of how many times you have been broken down or your wife, which by the way my wife has M.S. Maybe we can get our good mechanic buddies to join in and be witnesses for us and get double pay. Maybe I'm talking crazy but I'm an ASST' mgr in a major auto parts store, and I know they should have not got away with this serious situation!!!! LET me know one way or other, but I'm very bull headed. THANKS TO ALL...
juno56@comcast.net PLEASE HELP ME GET THIS POSTED TO WHEREVER THIS NEEDS TO BE TO BE THE MOST EFECTIVE!!!!

STSS
06-08-10, 09:47 AM
LOL... good luck with that.....

turboguy52
06-09-10, 01:24 AM
why is it that we cant get enough people to make a difference I need help i've called my congressman, cadalic, and news chanels PLEASE someone or all help You'll be glad you did. YOU know what kind of problems these HG have caused and CADDY just SNUBED their nose at it. I bet it's as bad if not worse than TOYOTA THey aer Lawers on this form so lets make some noise PLEASE

STSS
06-09-10, 10:06 AM
Caddy repaired the N*s that blew the HGs when they were still under warranty.... they have no legal obligation to fix them on a 10-15 year old car. There is a limited warranty period for a reason.

The Toyota deal was a safety issue... how many people died when their HGs blew?

paulikorg
06-23-10, 02:27 PM
Yeah how about that infamous..."STP" For decades it was purchased and dumpted into crankcases by pros and weekend mechanics alike.(it did absolutely nothing to improve performance)
Like someone said in an earlier post..."IT'S MIND OVER MATTER"
"ONE MANS CEILING IS ANOTHER MANS FLOOR"......lol

edb150
06-25-10, 11:11 PM
reminds me of my Dads favorite phrase " A fool and his money are soon parted":thepan:

tateos
06-26-10, 01:23 PM
I bought and used some STP back in the old days - put it in old, worn engines - it thickened the oil - probably did help reduce oil leakage and consumption and seal the rings better and thereby maybe boost power a little . It only cost $1 per pint can, so it was no big deal. I think I was even using the Walmart brand version of STP Oil Treatment in my wife's '92 Topaz in the later years of it's life, before we sold it in 2003. I feel worse about the Slick 50 and similar products I bought and used a couple times. Hell, I use syn oil in my newer cars now - it probably does nothing either, and it costs a lot more than $1 per oil change more than dino.

Destroyer
06-27-10, 09:27 PM
:mad2:I just sent one of the nastyest letter to CADDY you've ever heard. I've had 2 CADDY N* engines which run like H**L but are junk I've been broke down one too many times> IT's time we stood up to the GIANT GM!!
IF I can get enough people behind me we can get a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT and get help with these junk engines. PLEASE join me and we can do this!!!
Just thank of how many times you have been broken down or your wife, which by the way my wife has M.S. Maybe we can get our good mechanic buddies to join in and be witnesses for us and get double pay. Maybe I'm talking crazy but I'm an ASST' mgr in a major auto parts store, and I know they should have not got away with this serious situation!!!! LET me know one way or other, but I'm very bull headed. THANKS TO ALL...
juno56@comcast.net PLEASE HELP ME GET THIS POSTED TO WHEREVER THIS NEEDS TO BE TO BE THE MOST EFECTIVE!!!!LMAO! This whole thing will fall on deaf ears. See, everyone here thinks the N* is the greatest thing since fried rice and think the HG problem is normal. Besides, a class action law suit on an older car like that would be laughed out of any courtroom. For what it's worth, I agree, the N* is a POS and it is a huge reason that cars powered by them are virtually worthless.

Billy2012
07-03-10, 12:42 PM
One couldnt bring a lawsuit against GM anyway.

When they filed bankruptcy and became the "New" GM (AKA Government Motors) it protects them.

You would have to sue the old bankrupt GM.


I am going to try water wetter in my Seville... I cant stand the temp swinging back and forth from 12 to 1... It scares me to think about what will happen when we get back to 102 -105 temps here again.

I just dont see how slowing down to 45 mph 85 degree day a/c on fans running would cause the temp to start climbing up....
This causes me to have to constantly look at my temp and I cant even think about anything else... I am too busy saying please dont go higher please please please.... then it starts to go back and I feel like I dodged a bullet.

I just want it to stay at 12 unless Its 100 outside and I am sitting in traffic a/c on full and then I would be ok with a small couple of ticks..... but the next line wheewwww this is killing me.

Submariner409
07-03-10, 01:19 PM
Water wetter will NOT lower your coolant temperature beyond system design and thermostat settings.

The wide open setting for the thermostat in your car is 206 degrees. That is a needles' width to the right of 12:00.

It is perfectly normal for an engine to pass off excess heat in the minute or so after high speed slowdown, especially during high ambient temperatures.
Remember that all those pistons, rods, crank, valves, cams, lifters, chains, etc are cooled by OIL, not coolant. You slow down and that heat transfers into the head and block metal and the coolant carries it away rapidly. Normal.