: 99 STS engine reinstallation question/problems



kobrien8
04-20-10, 11:31 PM
Over the past two weeks I have removed the cradle and had the block studed and lower half sealed. The engine is back in the car and starts, runs rough with 15% throttle, then dies when returned to idle. I keep getting P1010-mass or volume air flow circuit range/performance. The mass air sensor was working fine before I pulled the engine so I am not sure that just replacing the sensor will do the trick, although there isn't really anything upstream that would affect the mass air sensor. Right? Also, will having the gel from the spark plug wire set on the plug electrodes have any negative effects? Thanks!

PS I am new here!

Ranger
04-20-10, 11:36 PM
Where is the MAF sensor on your engine? One the TB or upstream in the duct?

kobrien8
04-20-10, 11:38 PM
It is in the duct I am almost certain. I am going to double check

JimD
04-20-10, 11:40 PM
....I keep getting P1010-mass or volume air flow circuit range/performance.

P1010 is not a valid code. You read it wrong or typed it wrong.

kobrien8
04-20-10, 11:44 PM
Sorry! P0101. That's what I get for doing this via smart phone in the middle of nowhere!

Ranger
04-20-10, 11:52 PM
If it's in the duct, be sure you don't have a leak behind it. Check the clamp at the TB.

kobrien8
04-20-10, 11:52 PM
The MAF is definitely in the duct. Also, if this helps, my freeze frame data for the MAF is 3.072 lb/min

JimD
04-21-10, 12:08 AM
Sorry! P0101. That's what I get for doing this via smart phone in the middle of nowhere!

P0101 - Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Performance

Your MAF is that 2.5" section of rigid intake air plumbing immediately upstream of the throttle body. Triple check the wire harness integrity and security / cleanliness to the 3 pin connector on the firewall surface of the MAF.

Maybe your Smart phone isn't??:)

Someone give me clue why this Seville question was arbitrarily moved to the Northstar section. Please.

kobrien8
04-21-10, 12:38 AM
I wondered that myself about the question being moved but since I am new here I Just figured that I didn't use the right question asking protocol. Everything looks good as far as wiring and connections go. Should I Just spend the $100 and buy a new sensor? Is this what is causing the rough running?

JimD
04-21-10, 01:20 AM
.....Should I Just spend the $100 and buy a new sensor?
That would be your call! If there is any possibility your MAF was exposed to nasty fluids or physical damage during the cradle R & R, MAF replacement "might be" your solution.


Is this what is causing the rough running?
Most likely, at this point.

Sorry to be so wishy-washy, but your model of MAF is a "delicate" part. My background always points me to wiring as the first failure possibilty to eliminate.

kobrien8
04-21-10, 02:15 AM
Thanks for the help! I am also curious as to if the gel in the plug wire pack was applied to the plug electrodes would cause rough running as well? My assistant (buddy) informed me that he put the gel on the electrodes thinking it was to make a better connection. Guess a new maf sensor is in my future!

98eldo32v
04-21-10, 02:19 AM
I'd check the wires again before buying another unit. You'd be surprised how one wire might wiggle out of the connector and "look" like it's making contact and it really isn't. I had a problem with an egr valve code, bought a valve and all only to find out when i went to install it, one of the wires came out of the connector.....

Submariner409
04-21-10, 09:56 AM
Are you saying that someone put dielectric silicone ignition grease on the spark plug tips ??? :eek:

That stuff is for plug and coil boots and the seal rings on electrical connectors: It's an insulator !!!

If this is all about the 1999 as indicated in the thread title, then your MAF is bolted directly to the throttlebody and the IAT in down by the filter box. If it's the 2003 then the MAF is in the flex intake duct and the IAT is incorporated in the MAF.....

Early MAF..................................2000+ MAF..................... correct plug wiring

Ranger
04-21-10, 11:55 AM
Someone give me clue why this Seville question was arbitrarily moved to the Northstar section. Please.
Because it was strictly an engine (Northstar) question and seemed more appropriate here. I can move it back if everyone thinks it belongs in the Seville section.

stoveguyy
04-21-10, 12:15 PM
were plugs original or new? a leaky headgasket will/can foul up plugs. maybe try a new set. your assistant applied gel to the tips? did you see him do it? what else did he do on this job while your back was turned?

kobrien8
04-21-10, 07:48 PM
UPDATE The new plugs and wires are clean and free of any sealant and a new mass air flow sensor is installed. ENgine runs rough and code P0101 Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Range/Performance. Wires look fine. PLug is fine. I am stumped!

JimD
04-21-10, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the help! I am also curious as to if the gel in the plug wire pack was applied to the plug electrodes would cause rough running as well?

Unlikely (if you are referring to the high voltage wire connections). The connectors at both ends of the high voltage wires are a friction fit which virtually guarantees a solid metal-to-metal connection.

JimD
04-21-10, 08:11 PM
UPDATE The new plugs and wires are clean and free of any sealant and a new mass air flow sensor is installed. ENgine runs rough and code P0101 Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Range/Performance. Wires look fine. PLug is fine. I am stumped!

If this was my engine, I would check the two connectors at the PCM (in the airstream directly in front of the air filter). If those connectors are clean and secure, I would plan to check the continuity of the wires that connect the MAF to the PCM.

This is smelling like a wiring problem and you probably don't want to throw any more money at it.....

kobrien8
04-21-10, 08:40 PM
I think I am chasing a small wiring problem. I am also finding a P1599 cruise control management code and randomly the temperature spikes to full hot and the car warns me to shut it off. The ignition is only in the on position and the car isn't even running. Something is up! It was completely fine before engine removal. I will beat this! Thanks for your help so far, about to check the PCM.

JimD
04-21-10, 09:17 PM
I think I am chasing a small wiring problem.
I agree 110%. Stay after it and you will probably find a pinched wire harness with one or more broken wires or more than one connector not properly seated.

kobrien8
04-21-10, 10:00 PM
The only thing that makes me shake my head is the fact that while the engine is running (rough) and I am doing a live scan the MAF is giving live slightly fluctuating readings. I might wind up having it towed to the dealer and dumping it on them, but I would like to work through it myself!

Submariner409
04-21-10, 10:07 PM
If the engine is idling erratically or running rough at low speeds, then it's correct for the Mass Airflow Sensor to give fluctuating readings............as JimD posted you're looking for a wiring or connector problem.

kobrien8
04-21-10, 10:21 PM
So the mass air flow giving the fluctuating reading is what is causing the code P0101? That would mean the MAF is functioning properly and I need to chase the source of the rough running? No misfire codes or anything like that. Is the MAF code the cause of the rough running or is the rough running the cause of the MAF code? After giving it slight throttle to bring it to operating temperature I had smoke smelling like burning oil coming off the cat converter. Probably had nothing to do with anything but figured I would mention it.

Submariner409
04-21-10, 10:37 PM
Smoke smelling like burning oil in the vicinity of the cat is most likely a fuel mixture problem which overheats the cat. Either Fuel Pressure Regulator, injector fault, vacuum leak, throttlebody leak, PCV fault, spark plug/wire/coil/proper plug wire hookup.

If the engine is running raggedly, particularly at idle, then the engine speed varies and so does airflow through the MAF - therefore the fluctuating MAF signal.

Post #13

edb150
04-21-10, 10:54 PM
I would check compression, maybe one of the cams is not timed right. I had one that the cam gear bolt came loose and there was no compression on the rear bank . I had the same code and it was backfiring if i tried to give it any throttle. The answer may be in the question. The problem did not exist before it was taken apart so maybe a problem was created during assembly?

edb150
04-21-10, 10:58 PM
I also had no misfire code but when i veiwed the misfire history on the scanner it was indeed misfiring. it was the intake cam in my case

kobrien8
04-21-10, 11:02 PM
Very good points! I pulled the engine myself but had all the work done by one of the shops on Jake's list. If the engine was out of time wouldn't I be getting a code of some sort? Every time I start the car it roughly idles for a bit and then dies. Sounds like I am looking at a lot of possibilities at this point. Hmmm

edb150
04-21-10, 11:39 PM
Mine had the same code as yours and i thought it was a vac leak or bad cat until i saw the misfires and checked compression. the chain was timed right but the cam bolt was loose so the cam was just sitting there with the gear spinning around. the alignment pin had come out of the came end and dropped into the front of the oil pan. i got lucky and it all worked out. gave me fits for a little while

kobrien8
04-21-10, 11:48 PM
Okay, after doing some research I have come to the realization that the MAF code is the not problem, it is a symptom of a problem! Something is causing the engine to run rough, which is causing a wildly fluctuating volume of air to be passing through the MAF. The MAF code and rough idle/dying are symptoms of the actual problem. I am not getting any misfire codes, and if I give it a little throttle it will run forever, albeit very rough, eventually overheating the Catalytic Converter producing the smoke I have been seeing. In the past when an engine has run like this one is running it has been a vacuum leak of some kind. I think my next step might be to perform a vacuum check. Since the MAF is giving the computer readings, obviously it is functioning correctly and I can rule out a wiring problem for that code. Thanks so much for the help everyone, I am working through this and I can't wait to have it up and running because I am giving the car to my sister who recently graduated from Vet School and wants a nice, professional looking car to drive. Nothing says professional like a black on black Caddy!

kobrien8
04-21-10, 11:55 PM
edb,
I am wondering how I can check the misfire history on my scanner? I can actually tell if there is a misfire without the car producing a code? I have a really nice scan tool (for an amatuer) that I just bought and I am learning how to use it. I did have one random backfire this afternoon when the car died, and a few small "pops" out of the flapper valve on the intake yesterday but nothing today other than the one backfire. Sounds like a compression test may be in my future as well as a vacuum test.

Ranger
04-22-10, 12:08 AM
How do you know that the wires are good? How old are they?

P.S.
ebd150 it was great meeting you and talking with you this evening.

kobrien8
04-22-10, 12:55 AM
The wires to the MAF look to be in good condition and the plug is clean and fits tightly. The fact that the MAF is sending data to the scanner that seems to coincide with how the engine is sucking air leads me to believe that the wiring and sensor are functioning properly. If my logic is flawed please let me know!

edb150
04-22-10, 12:57 AM
mine popped the same way and overheated the converter from all the unburned fuel. i thought i was gonna blow the plennum off it( seen that on a ford 3.8) depends what scanner you have ,as it may not show misfire data. good luck and let us know what you find. Check compression, I know its a pain but it will tell you a lot . PS nice to meet you too RANGER

kobrien8
04-22-10, 01:30 AM
I will be checking the compression tomorrow as soon as I can rent a compression tester. Correct me if I am wrong, but I will only need to test one cylinder on each bank?

Submariner409
04-22-10, 09:39 AM
You need to remove all 8 spark plugs, wires, coils, etc. Pull the IGN fuse from the box. Roll each cylinder 5 times for a compression test - all 8 cylinders. Ideally all 8 cylinders should be within 10 psi of the median average. (most cylinders - say - 150 ? None higher than 160, lower than 140. The closer the better.)

Clean everything, especially the coil contacts and the ICM ground, torque each plug to 13 ft/lb, using a tad of anti-seize on the first 3 threads of each plug. Gap is .050"

Replace the plug wires exactly as shown in the diagram. It's important.

kobrien8
04-22-10, 04:56 PM
So far the compression tested okay and there is spark at every plug. Try a vacuum test? I have until sundown tonight and then I am heading back to Ohio and the dealership will get this mess!

Submariner409
04-22-10, 05:45 PM
Idling manifold vacuum should be on the order of 22" of mercury or MAP 4.0 +/-. The exact figure depends on current barometric pressure........but in any event there should be practically NO significant vacuum change at a smooth idle.

kobrien8
04-22-10, 07:16 PM
At the time the engine died the freeze frame data was 20.9 inches. It varied between 18 and 25 inches.

Submariner409
04-23-10, 08:57 AM
18 to 25" is a significant change. This sounds like a "hunting" idle speed control.

kobrien8
04-23-10, 05:15 PM
Well EDB, unfortunately for me, You were right. The Cadillac dealer just called me and told me that the front bank is out of time and it will be 1200 to fix it as long as nothing else is wrong internally. Very disappointing considering I paid 2000 to have the block studded and sealed by one of the shops on Jake's list. Hopefully they will make it right. Unfortunately I am now 500 miles from the car, which is 200 miles from the shop that did the work. I started to become suspicious after I found that the front gasket on the coolant crossover was incorrectly installed. Only one bolt was through the gasket because the gasket was not in place and you could see between the block and the crossover. My act of charity is quickly becoming an act of cruelty!

edb150
04-24-10, 11:19 PM
Sorry to hear all the bad news. Hopefully Jake will help you resolve the problem with his INNRS member. Im not sure where the car is located but I am in Illinois and will fix it free of charge due to your circumstances and the amount of money you have already spent. Its a bit of work but 1200 seems like a bit much. I charge 2000 to 2200 to do the complete job and that includes removing and replacing the engine which it appears you had to do yourself.I use Norms inserts but would have done the stud kit since it is the same process of installation. Good luck and let me know if I can help .Joe @ MidwestCadillacrepair.com

Ranger
04-24-10, 11:34 PM
Sorry to hear all the bad news. Hopefully Jake will help you resolve the problem with his INNRS member. Im not sure where the car is located but I am in Illinois and will fix it free of charge due to your circumstances and the amount of money you have already spent. Its a bit of work but 1200 seems like a bit much. I charge 2000 to 2200 to do the complete job and that includes removing and replacing the engine which it appears you had to do yourself.I use Norms inserts but would have done the stud kit since it is the same process of installation. Good luck and let me know if I can help
WOW! :worship:

cadillac_al
04-25-10, 09:36 AM
Well this thread is a cryin' shame. One little screw up can cause a lot of headaches. It's probably not my place to criticize anybody, but somebody should accept responsibility and stand behind their work. Nobody is perfect, the world isn't perfect, a mistake can happen and in those hopefully rare occasions, the shop should be glad to make it right and give their customer a fair deal. I don't know why any shop would expect their customers to pay for their (the shop's) mistakes or learning curve. I feel bad for you on this one kobrien.

kobrien8
04-25-10, 06:30 PM
EDB,
Thanks for the generous offer, but luckily the shop that did the work is going to drive down to central Illinois and pick the car up, take it to their shop, get it straightened out, and then take it back down to my sister. They were very helpful and apologetic and I completely understand that mistakes happen. Looking back, its much harder for a shop to do the work on just the engine because without the car they have no way to start it and make sure that everything is in order before they give it back to the customer. It will all work out in the end as I knew it it would, one way or another! Hopefully by mid week it will be up and running. Even though the engine was assembled slightly out of time, I am glad I paid the money for a reputable shop to do a warrantied repair job for situations exactly like this. Thanks again EDB....what would you charge to do just an engine if I pulled one and brought it to you? I LOVE these cars and I have my eye on a few low mileage ones in my area with blown head gaskets that the people are willing to unload for next to nothing!

edb150
04-25-10, 08:46 PM
Give me a call and we can discuss it but probably around 600 labor plus parts to do the inserts or studs and reseal the lower end . i know what you mean about the cheap cars, every time i look on the internet i find some. I went to wisconsin saturday and sunday for a swap meet and brought home 2 cadillacs.

97EldoCoupe
05-18-10, 10:42 PM
kobrien8 - I am so very sorry to hear about all of this. That detailed email you sent me has led me to believe I can no longer trust this shop. I want him to continue to be a customer of mine but I will not refer work to a shop who does not help their customers better than this. Anyone can make a mistake and mis-time an engine, I could do it someday too (170+ engines and never had one mistimed yet) but I hope not-. There is no excuse for the tech to take as long as he did to help you correct the problem.

I am truely sorry. You said you spent $135 on the tow and diagnosis. Give me your address and I will send a cheque for that amount in the mail. I know this does not help out with the aggravation this caused you. I know. But I refer work to these shops for three reasons:

1- To help anyone who wants their Caddy fixed correctly, get it fixed CORRECTLY and efficiently.
2- To increase profits on the whole stud repair system (of course, that's part of running a business)
3- To help these shops out and get them more work

Now if these shops don't realize that I'm trying to help them; and don't repay me by respecting the customers I send their way and helping them out if there's a problem, they don't need my referrals. It's as simple as that. I feel that given the circumstances, that Kevin was trying to do something incredibly nice for his sister, wanted my stud repair system in there, and trusted a shop whom I referred him to via my website, he deserves a bit of compensation in addition to the $135. I am not a millionaire nor will I ever be, but an even $200 will at least cover a couple of nice dinners on the town as you and your sister celebrate her new career as a Veterinarian (I was skimming through this I hope I'm correct).

Please Kevin send me your mailing address. info@northstarperformance.com

Now I want to continue to be accountable for my network shops. This means more thorough, in-depth history on their previous work will be done before they become an INNRS member. People visit my website because they want a bulletproof repair and to find a place that can fix their car right- not to get treated this way or to have their engine incorrectly timed.

My stud kit customers and everyones referrals to me allow me to issue a bit of compensation like this when its due. I thank everyone for their continued support and hope to have edb150 on board in place of my now previous INNRS member in Illinois. He does excellent work and I've spoken with him on the phone- he has the attitude, experience and capabilities that I trust.