Okay, so the discussion went like this:

Some prefer all show with no go, I prefer all go with no show.

That's funny...that you prefer all go with no show considering you drive a Honda

Yes, I do drive a Honda...... if you looked closely, it's a Prelude. Not a Civic or Accord. If you had any idea what exactly a Prelude is, you'd recant that statement.

I do of course know what a Prelude is, I had one in 1985 (when you were 8). But are you saying that the Prelude is some kind of high end Honda???
I thought an Acura was the high end Honda

This is getting way off topic, but I'll explain...... in 1993, The Prelude went high end. It should have been an Acura, but they kept it in the Honda lineup for panache I guess. Anyway, you know the variable valve timing on the 3.6 CTS? Honda was the first to mass produce an engine with 2 sets of cam lobes on for each valve (one at low speed short duration/lift, one at high engine speed for long duration/high lift). They called it VTEC, which stands for Variable Timing and Electronic lift Control. It debuted in the supercar Acura NSX in 1990, and the Prelude was the first mass produced car to get it in 1993. Obviously, mine is a 2000, so here's the deal..... At 4500 RPM, my engine becomes a monster. From 4500 to red line at 7500, it does not loose an ounce of power (technically it does, but you don't know it).

Honda tends to be at the forefront of cutting edge technology for mass production. Far ahead of GM, as this case makes it obvious. Preludes from 93-96 had 190 hp, and 97-99s had between 195 and 200 (mine is 200). For a 4 cylinder. Keep this in mind, it merits repeating...... 200 hp in a stock from the factory 4 cylinder engine.

That's more hp than the Allante had

In a $20,000 car.

I have always believed that Honda produces some of the world's best small engines. It's the rest of the package that they need to work on (their insistance on FWD being a major sticking point with me).

I agree that a 4-cylinder pushing 200hp is impressive, but at the end of the day it is still 'only' 200hp. Even a 'high end' Honda is just a Honda (even if it wears an Acura badge). They could pull that horse out of a two cylinder engine for all I care and it isn't going to change that fact.


As for the Allante, by 1989 it had 200hp. That's four years before the Prelude received as much and over ten years before your car. By 1993 the Allante had the 275hp Northstar. The Prelude is still awaiting it's upgrade.

You want to talk high end, we'll talk high end...... the car I have had in mind other than the CTS is the Acura TL...... With 270 hp out of a 3.2 liter engine. The only reason I am entertaining a CTS over a TL is my GM mastercard has over 1500 on it.

I love the TL. It's about as top notch as it gets for 33k. In fact, the car feels like a 50k car. I love the CTS as well.

My point is Acura isn't "just" a Honda. And for the record, Honda isn't as plain Jane as you may assume either. You say I'm still waiting for an update on my Prelude? That's the Accord V6 six speed coupe, my friend. 240 hp, double wishbone suspension, 17" wheels, and a 6 speed trans. I've seen these blow Mustang GT's away. Stock.

Cadillac, while very impressive, is still lagging a little when it comes to their high end designs. I give them alot of credit for catching up, but that's all they've really done is catch up. Case in point - the new Acura RL will have a 300 hp V6 and a full time awd system that can not only vary the traction output to each wheel independently in bad weather, but adjust the torque output at each wheel for beyond supurb performance in dry weather. The preliminary reports say it gives Audi's Quattro system a real run for it's money. Sure the new STS has an AWD option, but does it have active torque transfer? I think not.

So, my question to you, my fellow forum-dwellers: Do we consider Honda 'high end'?

No, seriously. I know it's hard not to laugh, but please give your honest opinion...
:lildevil:

You want to talk high end, we'll talk high end...... the car I have had in mind other than the CTS is the Acura TL...... With 270 hp out of a 3.2 liter engine. The only reason I am entertaining a CTS over a TL is my GM mastercard has over 1500 on it.

I love the TL. It's about as top notch as it gets for 33k. In fact, the car feels like a 50k car. I love the CTS as well.

We already did this comparison, remember? It was pretty unanimous that the CTS was the better car:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17215
The TL feels like a $50k car? Please. For that price you can get a CTS-V, an M3, a Corvette, or half a dozen other cars that ‘feel’ nothing like the TL… $33k is a good price, don’t push it.

My point is Acura isn't "just" a Honda. And for the record, Honda isn't as plain Jane as you may assume either. You say I'm still waiting for an update on my Prelude? That's the Accord V6 six speed coupe, my friend. 240 hp, double wishbone suspension, 17" wheels, and a 6 speed trans. I've seen these blow Mustang GT's away. Stock.

The comparison put forth by you was your Prelude versus the Allante. I pointed out the flaw in your reasoning. But if you want to go into current versions of the cars, remember that the XLR is the Allante’s spiritual descendent. Do you really want to go there?

As for Mustang GT’s…
See the recent posts in the ‘Kills’ section. Those don’t impress me .

Cadillac, while very impressive, is still lagging a little when it comes to their high end designs. I give them alot of credit for catching up, but that's all they've really done is catch up.

Go read any comparison done in the last year that includes a Cadillac. Go read our ‘Versus’ forum. Cadillac is near or at the top of every category it competes in.

Case in point - the new Acura RL will have a 300 hp V6 and a full time awd system that can not only vary the traction output to each wheel independently in bad weather, but adjust the torque output at each wheel for beyond supurb performance in dry weather. The preliminary reports say it gives Audi's Quattro system a real run for it's money. Sure the new STS has an AWD option, but does it have active torque transfer? I think not.

‘Active torque transfer’ as Honda is calling it, is nothing new and has been around for years. Honda mainly has used it thus far to try and eliminate the vicious torque steer in their FWD cars. Most manufacturers use a version of torque transfer. Does Cadillac have a torque transfer system? Of course. They have that and more:

“STS is available in both rear-wheel drive and all-wheel drive. The all-wheel-drive system runs with a 40/60 front/rear torque split, until it is necessary to divert power to a specific wheel in the event of wheel spin. The system transfers torque through three open differentials, front, center and rear. In addition to modulating torque to the wheels, the system manages engine torque. The system's transfer case incorporates the center open differential distributing the 40/60 split.

STS also comes with StabiliTrak, an active handling system with independent controls to all four corners of the vehicle to help it remain under the driver's control on wet, snowy and icy surfaces, in tight turns and in evasive maneuvers. The system can correct a potential slide or loss of control before the driver is even aware of it. StabiliTrak is enhanced with GM's Magnetic Ride Control, which the automaker calls the world's fastest reacting suspension control system.”

Let’s see Honda match that.

damn. gothicaleigh done her homework. i think she shut him up. honda has never and will never be a high end car

gothicaleigh, I think you need to get out more.

Take your car out for a run when you start to read post about people comparing Hondas to Caddys lol

We already did this comparison, remember? It was pretty unanimous that the CTS was the better car:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17215
The TL feels like a $50k car? Please. For that price you can get a CTS-V, an M3, a Corvette, or half a dozen other cars that ‘feel’ nothing like the TL… $33k is a good price, don’t push it.



The comparison put forth by you was your Prelude versus the Allante. I pointed out the flaw in your reasoning. But if you want to go into current versions of the cars, remember that the XLR is the Allante’s spiritual descendent. Do you really want to go there?

As for Mustang GT’s…
See the recent posts in the ‘Kills’ section. Those don’t impress me .



Go read any comparison done in the last year that includes a Cadillac. Go read our ‘Versus’ forum. Cadillac is near or at the top of every category it competes in.



‘Active torque transfer’ as Honda is calling it, is nothing new and has been around for years. Honda mainly has used it thus far to try and eliminate the vicious torque steer in their FWD cars. Most manufacturers use a version of torque transfer. Does Cadillac have a torque transfer system? Of course. They have that and more:

“STS is available in both rear-wheel drive and all-wheel drive. The all-wheel-drive system runs with a 40/60 front/rear torque split, until it is necessary to divert power to a specific wheel in the event of wheel spin. The system transfers torque through three open differentials, front, center and rear. In addition to modulating torque to the wheels, the system manages engine torque. The system's transfer case incorporates the center open differential distributing the 40/60 split.

STS also comes with StabiliTrak, an active handling system with independent controls to all four corners of the vehicle to help it remain under the driver's control on wet, snowy and icy surfaces, in tight turns and in evasive maneuvers. The system can correct a potential slide or loss of control before the driver is even aware of it. StabiliTrak is enhanced with GM's Magnetic Ride Control, which the automaker calls the world's fastest reacting suspension control system.”

Let’s see Honda match that.

It's obvious you need to do some homework on SH-ATTS (Super Handling - Active Torque Transfer)...... it can send up to 95% tq to any one wheel at any given time. Or any two wheels. Or any 3 wheels. And ATTS was up untill now only used on the 97-01 Prelude SH, not on any other Honda model. It's not electronic, it's hydraulic. But the system in the RL is a combination hydroelectronic system. In normal driving operations, the system is 25/75 front to rear.

When I say the TL feels like a 50k car, I mean quality, fit and finish, solidity of the interior, and refinement of the switchgear and controls inside. Unless you are either blind or too biased to even compare fairly, you have to admit while the CTS is much better than any GM vehicle in those repsects, it still has a ways to get to Acura, Audi, and BMW levels.

When I compared the Prelude to the Allante, it was only to show that 200 hp out of a 4 cylinder is an incredible achievement, considering the Allante had only 140 out of a V8 untill the Northstar came about. I could have mentioned any car, but that was the first one in my head. It was not meant to compare specifically. Honestly, GM's 3800, STILL has only 200 hp. In 2004. While Honda is getting 240 and 270 (and soon 300) out of theirs. The 3.6 is 255 hp, yes, but is it available on all bread and butter GM vehicles? No, just Cadillac. When the 3.6 is available on a 23,000 Grand Prix, only then can you say GM can compete head to head in their technology.

This is kind of silly here.

I love my Caddy sls and my wife loves her Honda 2 Door EX , V6 240HP, which has every option the Caddy has including heated seats. Her 2004 will stay right on my 95 and we love both of the cars. If ya drive it like ya stole it, Both are fine. I love my SLS and she loves her Honda. Her advantage is 26k, NEW , out the door. My advantage is 6K used... :coolgleam

I do consider Acuras to be a "top of the line" Honda. But thats all it really is. It is not as luxurious as a Caddy, even when you consider all of the technology the TL has. In the same respect, I hold a Lexus in the same regard, but they are only top of the line among Toyota because it's not logical to compare an IS 30 to a Deville.

I voted for preludes and accord for the hell of it. :)

I love how people take what I say and turn it in to what they want to hear.

Like you guys just have to win :rant2: :madtalkin

And this all started with someone turning a CTS into a cartoon.

:hmm:

Hey man, chill out. I bet your car is fast, because its half as light as their cars even though it has half the cylinders. Hell i drive a beast, i ain't racing anybody anytime soon.

I consider Honda having an upper hand on craftsmanship and reliability. Luxury toys wise it has nothing Cadillac doesn't have.

The only negative side is that Hondas are "hip" and not very classy like Cadillacs are. I like very much how most Hondas look, but Cadillac's elegance cannot be rivaled by that brand.

If all cars were built like Hondas, most mechanics would be on welfare, that's a fact.

I consider Honda having an upper hand on craftsmanship and reliability. Luxury toys wise it has nothing Cadillac doesn't have.

The only negative side is that Hondas are "hip" and not very classy like Cadillacs are. I like very much how most Hondas look, but Cadillac's elegance cannot be rivaled by that brand.

If all cars were built like Hondas, most mechanics would be on welfare, that's a fact.

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004055bfull.gif

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004037cfull.gif

^

well put.

when honda comes out with a V-8 with a 4000 lb. body, and rolls low 14's while not feeling a damn thing, then ill consider them "high end". until then, ill agree that they are quality affordable cars, but not super-luxury performance machines. (exclude s2000, one sweet f****** honda!)

I agree that Acuras are top of the line Hondas, but they aren't luxary cars. They just feel like you're riding in an Accord with heated leather seats. Same Honda suspension and same handling. Even the design is almost the same (visualy). Basically, if im going to buy a Japanese "luxary" car, then its going to be a Lexus LS430. Not an acura. Even though the RSX looks cool, its still a Honda. A $90,000 honda....

I will say though, that Hondas as a whole over the past decades are some of the most reliable cars. The JP Power Reports are 2004 and im sure that Cadillac has caught up in reliability ratings because of the whole Sigma revamp of thier lineup. But Hondas are definately built sturdy and designed to be low-maintanence cars. And thats a good thing, its one of the main reasons people are drawn to Hondas.

But me, I just don't see me in a Honda or Acura or any Jap car any time soon. CADILLAC!

There is a limit on how much hp you can get out of a N/A 4 banger, and I think 240-260 will be that limit, that will be later on down the road with better tech development. On the other hand ive seen a N/A V8 with 900+ hp. 4 cylinder engines will never match the torque or hp of a V8, and if you want to talk about them having 1100hp with turbos, then youll have to think about V8's having 3000hp with a supercharger(topfuel drag cars).

Maybe a good way to put it is, "Acuras have luxury, but they aren't luxury cars."

Sorry I missed this thread. I can tell you a lot about Honda/Acura, because that's all I've driven for the past 13.5 years.

NO "Honda" can compare with ANYTHING Cadillac has to offer.

The Acura TL compares favorably with the standard CTS. If I had a choice, I'd take the TL any day.

The RL is very comfortable, quiet, and luxurious enough. But if I had to take a 1000-mile trip I'd rather be in a Seville. The RL is also very BLAND. Not much power at all. If you want power and performance, don't give the RL a second look. Supposedly they're about to re-design it, but the competition will be the BMW 5-series and the Mercedes E-class. That's not a true flagship, IMO. Honda doesn't always try to do better. They try to do almost as good, but at a lower cost. They're into efficiency and reliability.

What you're supposedly getting with Acura is the Honda reliability. But now they're mostly made in the States anyway. Look at the serial numbers--if they start with a "J" they're Japanese, if they start with an "A" they likely came out of Marysville, OH. Japanese-made Hondas are (in my experience) MUCH more reliable than their American counterparts. I chose to spend $10,000 more for the RL in 1997 for this reason. I chose the 2000 Prelude over the Accord for the same reason. I was right.

No. Honda doesn't make "high-end" cars with the Honda badge - they use the Acura badge for their "high-end" cars. An Acura RL is a very luxurious car. The Acura RL, Infiniti Q45 and Lexus LS430 are all intended to be luxuriously appointed vehicles. They have nice leather, they're comfortable, they're roomy, they're quiet, and they've got power (well, the new RL has power)..

Acuras are luxury cars.

Just just don't float or have cushy couch seats like Cadillacs :D .

I used to say (joking) that my Acura Legends were "Japanese Jaguars."

After about a year with the RL I started calling it a Japanese Buick. The one area that this car excelled in was QUIET. There was a LOT of sound deadening material, and the only time you heard tire noise was in the rain when water would splash up in the wheel wells.

You NEVER heard the motor.

with the new RL they will squeeze out 300hp out of a v6, now thats pretty impressive.

Yes it is. Now you all might be jealous that in my young 17 years of age i have access to an S2000, which i may say is one of the fastest cars i've ever driven.The 240hp v-tec four banger is a force to be reckoned with. None of your cars will keep up with it. Well at least not most. With a redline of 9000 and sounds like a vette at 7000, i may say it is one kick ass car.

I smoke them all day

I'm sure you do.

Let's see what threads I stumpled upon in other Cadillac groups on this forums

"Oil Leaking"- Cadillac SRX.
"Dash Paint Pealing??"-Cadillac SRX. I decided to keep the spelling original.
"Gm Recalls Cadillac SRX" - Cadillac SRX. Braking issues.
"Wet Feet & Lousy Radio" - Cadillac SRX.
"Paints Problems"- Cadillac CTS.
"Any Major Problems On The CTS" - Cadillac CTS.
"Cadillac Still Denying Rear Differential Problems" - Cadillac CTS.
"Transmission Problem?" - Cadillac CTS.
And somebody started a thread about a piece of glass falling out if his or her XLR between the door and C-pillar when the convertible roof retracts.

These are brand new cars, so poor maintenance doesn't fly.

We keep calling Cadillac a luxury car. But let's ask ourselves.... what is luxury? To some, it is another toy, another gizmo that you can play with and get bored after two or three tries. To others it is not spending time in the shop, thus not doing what you planned to do, wasting time, cancelling appointments, because the problem just appeared, it is not coming to the shop again and again over the problem that never duplicates itself when mechanic looks at it. It is ability to plan both your time and money on things and people and activities that make you enjoy lif, when the car darkens the shop threshold only for preventative maintenance.


You're right, Gothicaleigh, this is an absurd comparison.

Let's see what threads I stumpled upon in other Cadillac groups on this forums

"Oil Leaking"- Cadillac SRX.
"Dash Paint Pealing??"-Cadillac SRX. I decided to keep the spelling original.
"Gm Recalls Cadillac SRX" - Cadillac SRX. Braking issues.
"Wet Feet & Lousy Radio" - Cadillac SRX.
"Paints Problems"- Cadillac CTS.
"Any Major Problems On The CTS" - Cadillac CTS.
"Cadillac Still Denying Rear Differential Problems" - Cadillac CTS.
"Transmission Problem?" - Cadillac CTS.
And somebody started a thread about a piece of glass falling out if his or her XLR between the door and C-pillar when the convertible roof retracts.

These are brand new cars, so poor maintenance doesn't fly.

We keep calling Cadillac a luxury car. But let's ask ourselves.... what is luxury? To some, it is another toy, another gizmo that you can play with and get bored after two or three tries. To others it is not spending time in the shop, thus not doing what you planned to do, wasting time, cancelling appointments, because the problem just appeared, it is not coming to the shop again and again over the problem that never duplicates itself when mechanic looks at it. It is ability to plan both your time and money on things and people and activities that make you enjoy lif, when the car darkens the shop threshold only for preventative maintenance.


You're right, Gothicaleigh, this is an absurd comparison.

Before you get all high and mighty, my old pal Lev, EVERY car company has some problems, ESPECIALLY HONDA and ACURA. I hate to be the one to break it to you. :suspense: There are many people here who have not had trouble until the 150,000 mile marker hits, do a search in the early posts and see what I mean. Too bad you had some sort of trouble with yours, but if you're not willing to share what went wrong, (probably minor issues) don't try to mock the entire brand name that has come a long way in the past decade alone. Cadillac answers ONLY to LEXUS as proven by Goth, and numerous newspaper articles I've read. Why in the he** can't people get that into their heads?! The proof is in black and white. I guess people aren't ready to hear Cadillac will be number one very soon. The snoobs out there are not ready to hear their NEW Benz, BMW, Audi, Acura,Toyota is actually inferior to Cadillac this year, and the gap to Lexus is closing fast. Every one of those problems you mentioned can be cleared up under warrenty, the same cannot be said for Honda when they tried to hide a serious safety issue. Read on:

http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/ACURA.htm

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040414-040300-7874r.htm

http://autonet.ca/AutonetStories/Stories.cfm?StoryID=10103

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=44905

http://www.texas-injury-lawyers.com/dangerousproducts/Automobiles/hondarecalls.htm

http://earthrenewal.org/are_honda_automobiles_safe_and_r.htm

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-13114.html


To me a luxury car is something that is not disposable after 10 years of usage, and not boring and powerless. The Toyota Camry has been called the best, most practical car out there, but you won't see me driving that boring thing unless I want to be like everybody else, and have no class.

Before you get all high and mighty, my old pal Lev, EVERY car company has some problems, ESPECIALLY HONDA and ACURA. I hate to be the one to break it to you. :suspense: There are many people here who have not had trouble until the 150,000 mile marker hits, do a search in the early posts and see what I mean. Too bad you had some sort of trouble with yours, but if you're not willing to share what went wrong, (probably minor issues) don't try to mock the entire brand name that has come a long way in the past decade alone. Cadillac answers ONLY to LEXUS as proven by Goth, and numerous newspaper articles I've read. Why in the he** can't people get that into their heads?! The proof is in black and white. I guess people aren't ready to hear Cadillac will be number one very soon. The snoobs out there are not ready to hear their NEW Benz, BMW, Audi, Acura,Toyota is actually inferior to Cadillac this year, and the gap to Lexus is closing fast. Every one of those problems you mentioned can be cleared up under warrenty, the same cannot be said for Honda when they tried to hide a serious safety issue. Read on:

http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/ACURA.htm

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040414-040300-7874r.htm

http://autonet.ca/AutonetStories/Stories.cfm?StoryID=10103

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=44905

http://www.texas-injury-lawyers.com/dangerousproducts/Automobiles/hondarecalls.htm

http://earthrenewal.org/are_honda_automobiles_safe_and_r.htm

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-13114.html


To me a luxury car is something that is not disposable after 10 years of usage, and not boring and powerless. The Toyota Camry has been called the best, most practical car out there, but you won't see me driving that boring thing unless I want to be like everybody else, and have no class.

You posted what is about the extent of what you would find for Honda/Acura issues...... now, do some research about GM. I didn't - you know why? I'd be here all friggin week posting different links.

But the thing is, you rarely..... RARELY see any GM vehicle (including Cadillac) with over 150k miles still in very good shape. Now, the new cars coming from them (ie CTS) may be different, and I hope they are. But it's nothing to see an Acura with over 200k and still worth 5-7 grand. I haven't even seen a Cadillac with that many miles. And I don't mean after an engine and transmission rebuild. I mean on a car that's got everything it came with from the factory except for routine maintainance (brakes, tires, belts, oil)

Erm...
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/Blazer%20RF%20corner%20shot.jpg
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/Engine%20compartment.JPG
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/Interior%20facing%20driver.JPG
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/Full%20on%20side%20shot%20blazer.jpg
Oh and ya, add 7k to this
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/ODO%20reading.JPG
Yea thats the original motor. :rolleyes: Lets see a honda do that.

I always wonder why the common arguement from the Honda side is the whole 100 hp per litre .....everyone always says WOW thats amazing ....

Fact is they have very little torque , very very little ......HP is just a selling point , means nothing .....The honda( like fast said) doesnt wake up till midway thru the rev band . Honda thru winding the engine up to wickedly high RPM makes there power , a lesson learn from there early motorcycles and there First F1 effort in the late 60s .The technology is nice to see but ANY and i mean ANY manufacturer can build a 100 hp per litre 4cyl (all motor/no forced induction) but they dont , the engines are a pain to learn to launch off the line for the typical driver ....Most of the time the makers try to make a more blaced engine , giving up HP to bring torque up ...Also Sacrificeing insane redlines for longevity (How many 300,000 mile b18s have you seen)

No one is ever amazed the RX8 can make over 250hp off 1.3 litres with again very little torque...why ? if we only count hp per litre this blows the honda away ....

When honda makes a S2000 with 250 hp and 250 lb feet from 2.5 litres or less then i will have more respect(er lots with one of my own in the garage) ....But right now only the little S2000 and NSX are desireable in my book based on how balanced they are once rolling .....Dont get me wrong honda's are great cars(and awesome motorcycles) but in the end they are equal to everyone .

Then again my opion doesnt matter because i thinka few diesels and the modern pushrod chevys are high tech (ls1/ls6/up coming vvt pushrod 6.0)

Not to mention I also love rotarys even tho they have no torque....

So can a honda guy tell me when and in what they will put a diesel engine in for me to buy in the US ?

You posted what is about the extent of what you would find for Honda/Acura issues...... now, do some research about GM. I didn't - you know why? I'd be here all friggin week posting different links.

But the thing is, you rarely..... RARELY see any GM vehicle (including Cadillac) with over 150k miles still in very good shape. Now, the new cars coming from them (ie CTS) may be different, and I hope they are. But it's nothing to see an Acura with over 200k and still worth 5-7 grand. I haven't even seen a Cadillac with that many miles. And I don't mean after an engine and transmission rebuild. I mean on a car that's got everything it came with from the factory except for routine maintainance (brakes, tires, belts, oil)

"The extent," I don't think so. Go to Google and enter "Honda Recalls"=137,000 posts There is more than enough Honda problems to shake a stick at.

"Honda Safety Recalls"=75,600

""Honda Serious Recalls"=11,900

Sure Cadillac will have a lot but they also have a longer history on the road, and I'm betting there are more of them made than Honda. Any owner with 150,000 miles is not going to expect much in the name of resale value anyway. If you don't think Hondas depreciate you'd better check out my thread on depreciation and see what people had to say. Hondas hold their value at FIRST, for a few years, then rapidly depreciate. The opposite is true for Caddies. Don't believe me, check your classifieds in the paper and tell me I'm wrong.

I cannot count the number of 1970's, 1960's beaters still on the road. We buy them up here for harsh winter driving. Up here, cars that are that old don't get fixed, not worth it. They are thrown aside and we acquire another. I'm talking about cars that have no fenders left from salt corrosion and WELL OVER 150,000 miles on them. We keep them running throughout winter with little to no maintenance. My Dad who owned a Gulf service station up until he passed away in 1980, had a 1968 Chev Belvadere (sp?) and the owner STLL drives it around!!! I grew up with that car. His tow truck in the late 1970's was a Ford half ton from 1955, and it never needed repairs! When we got rid of the Gulf, we didn't know what to do with the damn thing, it was always loyal and trustworthy. Not many cars are built to outlast the owner, but that Chev did. Our 1980 Pontiac Phoenix coupe V6 has 250,000 kms or 150,000 + MILES on it and the valve covers have never been off it. It is still on the original tranny with all but a servo spring changed along with fluid for maintenance.

The point is that most people would probably not keep a car past the 150,000 mile mark, but I rather have to fix a GM car than pay more for expensive import parts that are going to last just as long anyway. Another aspect to consider is parts availability. I've heard that most car manufacturers are only required to stock parts for a discontinues model for around 8 years. Well, after 24 + years on the road, we can still get new parts from GM for the Phoenix! Can you still get parts for a 1971 Corolla or Civic?? I'm proud to drive a Cadillac, anyone that says otherwise is just jealous and has no respect for history of a legend.

My Prelude has the "sport-shift" transmission. It's been a MAJOR problem for Honda. They extended my warranty to 100,000 miles and 7 years. Fortunately for Honda, there aren't but about 60,000 Preludes out there, and probably 35,000 were manual transmissions.

I'm not surprised at the reactions from most of you...... as you are all pretty much "Detroit or bust" consumers anyway. And that's fine. Your opinion.

I'm on honda-acura.net as well, and the opinions there are, well, different. Different strokes for different folks.

I have, however, been messing with cars for 20 years (I was 13 when I rebuilt a 305 for an 83 Riviera). ALL kinds. From Hondas to Cadillacs to BMWs to Jaguars to Fords to Fiats. And one thing I have come to admire, which is what steered me to buy Honda, is that their cars are solid, refined, put together tighter than a Catholic school girl, and just don't break down. The fit and finish of Japanese and German cars is so well put together that at 100k, there is still not a shake, rattle, or squeak. No gaps in the dash, body pannels, or switchgear. Everything works as intended for as long as you own the car. Now you can't tell me that's the case with American cars. Sagging headliners, cracked and faded dashboards, flimsy door pannels, terribly wide gaps in the body pannels (inconsistant I may add), and shakes and rattles in cars that the equivalent import would just start to be broken in. My point is that GM knows how to build them, but they don't. For a multitude of reasons that would take countless sepparate threads to talk about. I read a book titled "The End Of Detroit", written about 2 years ago, and the opinions I've had for years were pretty much parallel with the scope of the book. I do admit, GM has made huge strides ever since Bob Lutz came aboard, and I admire what they've been doing. If they prove all these new vehicles can last 200k without major repairs (CTS, STS, G6, LaCrosse, Cobalt, and future new vehicles), smooth and silent engine operation, and the interior stays together for that duration, they will succeed. Only time will tell.

The fit and finish of Japanese and German cars is so well put together that at 100k, there is still not a shake, rattle, or squeak. No gaps in the dash, body pannels, or switchgear. Everything works as intended for as long as you own the car. Only time will tell.

Apparently you are incorrect about "time telling" how these cars hold together. That is simply not the case with regard to Benz. Are you a rational person??

Since you dragged Benz into this logical (until now) discussion, click on the "ML class" and read the horror. These are legit owners, and the official MB consumer warnings site, not to mention the nightmare prices MB charges for a simple Cat converter, etc:

http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/mlclass.php

You were saying....about Cadillac quality: Cadillac BEAT TOYOTA my friend:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7285&sid=175&n=156

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7086

The car connection is one of the most trusted and respected automotive sources for info on all types of cars......are you a rational person????

Well im not detroit or bust , ive owned 3 nissans 1 infiniti and one honda

The honda out of the 3 by far was the worst , a 95 Civic HX , had the cheapest interior i have ever seen , and interior fit and finish was terrible ...Made the base model stripper sentra i traded in on it look good . At the time i wanted it for the killer gas mileage and to get rid of a sentra that i had messed up modifying that couldnt pass emmisions . It had to be bought back because it had gas tank leakage issues.

I realize why the japanese car is popular , we didnt build them like that for years and we paid dearly for it . The other reason japan is so big is people hold there car int he same reagrd as a dishwasher (a means to get something done) Granted my 94 deville has its share of squeaks and rattles shes had a hard life and these cars have more bushings and seals to go bad ..yes the fit and finish could be beatter and it bugs me at times . But japanese cars have cracked dashboards (2 of mine did), faded paint(damn near every one of them) , smoke and have saggin headliners , just because they have a diffrent badge on them doesnt mean they dont age either , thats just pure BS . You lulled into thinking that way because you see so many old domestic cars out there but your not seeing as many old japanese cars. Even door gaps get illregular after 100k on a japanese car (lets see you roll that same marble across a 93 altima now )

Now if you want to talk about a REAL japanese car lets talk G20s , by the time 1996 rolled around that car was rated more reliable than corolla and civic . and i personally knew how great these cars were . It had 57k on it at the time it was destroyed and didnt leak a drop ,ever have a rattle and never had a single mechanical failure . Granted it made 140hp and around 130 lb feet out of 2 litres that engine was built far beatter than anything honda has done esp when compareing the bottom ends and piston rings . But the sr20 was built to have a turbo on it from the beginning so it was built tough ..

But for true reliability that honda can never touch they need to look at the 22re toyota found in the pickup , that is japanese reliabity , that is what is pictured in the dictionary under "relibility" and the only engine i could put all my faith into if i had to own one vehicle the rest of my life . Even how the camsafts are held in is very overbuilt

When i bought the cadillac i wanted safety ,security and a well made american car that i could be proud of . When i get my next car (a c4 vette) i want a pedigree , prestige and a rewarding driving experence from a car you have to learn to drive hard .

Japan(outside some of the sportscars) doesnt offer me a package like either , they offer me something on the order of a VCR , disposeable and it shows , not many people stand in awe if someone brought a mid 60s toyta crown to a car show , but bring any mid 60s domestic and people notice ...

thats why you cant call a honda high end , no body will care about those cars 20 years down the road (i see more people restoreing beetles and benzes than i do cvcc's)

to say its a high end brand becuse the engine can produce 100 hp per litre is a cop out , there good cars but there not that good ...

Apparently you are incorrect about "time telling" how these cars hold together. That is simply not the case with regard to Benz. Are you a rational person??

Since you dragged Benz into this logical (until now) discussion, click on the "ML class" and read the horror. These are legit owners, and the official MB consumer warnings site, not to mention the nightmare prices MB charges for a simple Cat converter, etc:

http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/mlclass.php

And you don't think hundreds of web rings like this exist for GM, Ford, and Chrysler? Who's rational here?



You were saying....about Cadillac quality: Cadillac BEAT TOYOTA my friend:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7285&sid=175&n=156

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7086

The car connection is one of the most trusted and respected automotive sources for info on all types of cars......are you a rational person????

Funny..... I read Lexus not only beat Cadillac, but everyone. Again, who's the rational one here? (PS - compare apples to apples, K? THNX.)

[QUOTE=fastball]And you don't think hundreds of web rings like this exist for GM, Ford, and Chrysler? Who's rational here?[QUOTE]

Well I guess that I've proven to you that your beloved Hondas DO IN FACT BREAK DOWN although you refuse to admit so. I have already admitted that there must be many web sites showing Cadillac flaws, what's your point??





[QUOTE=fastball]Funny..... I read Lexus not only beat Cadillac, but everyone. Again, who's the rational one here? (PS - compare apples to apples, K? THNX.)[QUOTE/]

First you try to divert attention from Acura/Honda by dragging Mercedes into the mix, NOW you try to divert attention from the FACT that Cadillac BEAT Toyota, Honda/Acura and Mercedes. I have already acknowleged the fact that Lexus beat Cadillac, whereas YOU seem to have a very difficult time acknowledging the fact that Cadillac is better than Honda/Acura, and the original purpose of this thread I might add.

I am rational enough to be able to use logic when overwhelming evidence is before me, and can admit to any shortcommings that may not favor my own personal opinion. Can you?

Cadillac BEAT Toyota,

Well why don't we just compare Ferrari to Cadillac? :rolleyes2

Look, this is going to get us nowhere. I see things one way, and you see them the other. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. What I can tell you is in my experiences with cars from the last 20 years, Japanese and German products have been consistantly better overall vehicles than any from GM.

Erm, why dont' you take a look at my post again. That vehicle has never broken down or had any major engine issues. thats why GM is better than Japanese cars. And how many 1994 german or japanese cars look as good as my blazer? Yea thats what I thought.

Japanese and German products have been consistantly better overall vehicles than any from GM.

"have been" are the key words in your statement. Things change, and for the better I might add.

Well why don't we just compare Ferrari to Cadillac?











:helpless:

Erm, why dont' you take a look at my post again. That vehicle has never broken down or had any major engine issues. thats why GM is better than Japanese cars. And how many 1994 german or japanese cars look as good as my blazer? Yea thats what I thought.

We're wasting our time. He most likely didn't even bother to read a few of the angry Benz owner's comments and horror stories. If he did, any logical, rational human being could admit things have changed and JD Power is NOT a source one can easliy dismiss. Quality among automakers can change, I don't know what is so difficult to understand about that simple fact. :rolleyes2

And how many 1994 german or japanese cars look as good as my blazer? Yea thats what I thought.
:histeric: priceless!!!!

I drove a Acura for the first time for about a month while my Caddy was getting some work done to it. The Acura is a nice car if you like boring exteriors and luxurious One-Piece plastic interiors. The High-Reving VTEC gives you that "Go-Kart" feeling, without the pull after 70mph. Cup-Holders were the worst i've ever seen in any car. Also, while we're on the topic of absurd comparisons, my Seadoo gets 152HP/L on pump gas, Honda eat your heart out!!

I think the title of this discussion says it all:

"Cadillac Vs. Honda : Yes, another absurd comparison."

Cadillac vs Honda? Ahahahahahah. :rolleyes2

Cadillac vs Honda? Ahahahahahah. :rolleyes2


What he said.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think it was a mistake for Honda to VTEC their luxury cars. Torque is what a luxury car owner expects to feel. My '90 and '97 Legends felt pretty good when you stepped on them. Can't say that for the RL or the TL's that I "borrowed."

I think VTEC is fine for a 4-cyl. car that isn't going to do much without it.

I think it was a mistake for Honda to VTEC their luxury cars. Torque is what a luxury car owner expects to feel. My '90 and '97 Legends felt pretty good when you stepped on them. Can't say that for the RL or the TL's that I "borrowed."

I think VTEC is fine for a 4-cyl. car that isn't going to do much without it.

Perhaps a V8 VTEC might help? Isn't that what's in the Pilot. I wonder how well Honda would do if they tried to dressup a Pilot to compete with Escalade or Navagators? Could they compete?

sidenote: Last year I test drove a base Civic LX with the 115 hp engine= completely gutless. Then the same day I drove the Civic SI coupe (in Canada it gets the 127 hp engine, and the SIR is 160 hp Acura engine from the RSX) anyway, the VTEC was much, much faster, and revved much quicker, despite them only having a 12 hp difference! So there must be something to those VTECs, and I'll bet a V8 VTEC would be nice.

What the hell do you need a VTEC V8 for???? You have a reardrive northstar v8 with variable valve timing. Take one for a rip and see if you care about VTEC anymore....

at 148k miles and 15 years old, i would be very impressed to find any honda that looks and drives like my caddy. also i believe the base price on the 1990 sedan was $27k ive had nothing but the best of luck with this car. ive replaced an alternator and a starter both at 145k. in my mind this car screams reliable.

ill never say that my car is fast, in fact ill say its slow. its not built for speed. it was made to be pampered, driven nicely, and look gorgeous in the process. whether im driving at 7 or 70 im floating down the road. cadillacs are impervious to rough roads. after working for 9 hours, or sitting in a movie theater for 2 hours (i hate theater seats) theres nothing i could look forward to more than plopping down on my ever so soft leather seat and cruise home.

a kid at work has a 93 prelude, red. its a GIRLS CAR!!! he added an MSD ignition, coffee exhaust and a wing that matches no car and will have a negative performance effect if any at all. he wanted to race my caddy cuz i told him it was a v8 with about 180hp. his reasoning, "just to see how many horses he was pushing"....i declined to race, and my response.

i dont care how fast youre going, im driving outta here in a caddy. i win.

comparing these cars is pointless. if you wanna put thousands and thousands of dollars into a 140hp engine and make it sound like a yellowjacket thats fine. as for me, ill only be found cruising in the highest level of comfort cars can offer. cadillac

i feel better now :D

nicely done chuckdobbins :coolgleam
yeah, caddies are "impervious to rough roads". i was driving down a street and they were rebuilding the road and it was very beat up and rough, along side me was a honda accord (not too new) and we both hit bumps, now i was just floating along like nothing was there, but he :helpless: was bouncing all around his car like a ping-pong ball :histeric: . now those moments make you a proud cadillac owner :coolgleam

when honda (or any other japanese company) comes out with a 4000lb car that has a thick steel unibody and a steel chasis that won't snap under the torque of a powerful v8 engine, then i'll say it's luxury. oh and it has to have a very soft supension too. lexus doesn't count because when they started they took apart an S class merc and looked at how it's made and did a japanese remake, hence the lexus ls430 = merc s430.

The best Honda / Acura hands down was the 95 Legend Coupe... I think it was a nice blend of Luxury & Sport.... And for a car that is 10 years old, I haven't had any major problems with it... I love my Acura as much as I love me 03 DTS. I do think that the 95 Acura Legend Coupe was before it time. I remember when the new 2000 Devilles came out,,,, I thought that the corning lamp in the front bumper on the Devilles look just like the ones that came on my 95 Legend (see pic)..

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/518184_20_full.jpg

I've got a honda that can beat all your caddys.

Is it a car? :p

Is it a car? :p
Yahuh

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/marilyns777/rob/MVC_005F.JPG

I don't consider Honda to be "high-end". For that matter,neither do the Japanese.
I spent 2 wks in Japan on vacation/meet family this past April.The streets are clogged with Toyotas,followed by Nissan.Mazda,Subaru,Honda etc.were in the minority.Most Hondas I saw were 1st generation Odyssey minivans.
Acura is unknown in Japan.What are sold as Acuras in North America
are "badge-engineered" Hondas with inflated sticker prices.
Anyone for a Honda Quint Integra ?(Honest !!)

s2000s aren't very impressive. A 9000 rpm redline means nothing, except that you can get towards the end of the wall-clock sized tach you bought at autozone. I don't see it beating a CTS-V either, although it may or may not get by a 96 STS or ETC

The S2000 is a very quick little roadster that was designed to be used at the track. I agree that it posts Cadillac besting numbers in that area. The V comes close though and that is a good sized 4 door sedan. It's not as hard to get a small roadster/oversized go-kart to do post good numbers as it is a nearly 4000lb. luxury sedan.

When and if Cadillac makes a small roadster (maybe off of the Kappa platform or a small Sigma?), I have no doubt it will run rings around the S2000 and do so with style. Until then, there isn't a very good way to compare apples to apples, but with how close the much larger V comes to the S2000's performance my bet will be on Caddy.
Maybe we can return to this comparison when the XLR-V comes out... at least they are both roadsters (although the XLR also is a much larger car).

Motor Trend numbers:

Honda S2000
0-60: 5.8 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.2 @ 99.9 mph
60-0 Braking: 118 ft.
Slalom: 68.6 mph

Compare the Slalom and braking numbers. If Cadillac can post Porsche-like numbers with a 4 door sedan, imagine what they could do with a small roadster:
Cadillac CTS-V
0-60: 5.1 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 105.3 mph
60-0 Braking: 115 ft.
Slalom: 65.0 mph

Wait, maybe we don't need a V version of the XLR to compete. These are pretty close for a roadster nearly twice the S2000's size:
Cadillac XLR
0-60: 6.0 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.2 @ 101.4 mph
60-0 Braking: 114 ft.
Slalom: 64.0 mph

Cadillac STS (an even larger 4 door sedan):
0-60: 6.0 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.2 @ 97.5 mph
60-0 Braking: 113 ft.
Slalom: 64.4 mph

...and just to show how good this new Sigma platform is, look at how trackable even the SUV version is:
Cadillac SRX
0-60: 6.4 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.6 @ 96.3 mph
60-0 Braking: 122 ft.
Slalom: 60.3 mph

Sure, not much will touch the S2000's supercar-like slalom numbers, but that owes heavily to it's very light weight. Still not a bad car if you don't worry about things like everyday living or adaptability. The CTS-V is an everyday driver that you can track. The S2000 is a track car that they let on the streets for the weekend. ;) :p





To show how the above numbers add up in application, here are their Nurburgring times:

Honda S2000 (2000) - 8:39
Honda S2000 (2004) - 8:30
Cadillac CTS-V - 8:19

If you're not familar with Nürburgring, the north loop is about 15 miles in length and has more than 170 turns. Elevation through the track changes by more than 700' and parts of the road are inclinded at 11 degrees – this lap is widely regarded as the true measure of a car’s performance.

Well, its silly to compare Honda to Cadillac anyways. They're in completely different categories; Luxary Cars and Economy Cars.

Honda's are, as most good Jap Cars (Toyota, Nissan, etc.) are, reliable. That's the draw to a Honda. As a whole, they're so maintainance free, its crazy. Very well engineered automobiles, for what they are. American vehicles still have a ways to go (even though they are catching up)

gothicaleigh, to give an example of my point, while the CTS may have better stats than the honda, you won't see a Honda S2000 with Rear Differential Whine, lame interior (not much to expect from a Honda, lots to expect from a CADILLAC CTS, which turned out to have one of the more disappointing interiors (i.e. loaded with plastic)), and ride vibrations (quite upsetting in a Cadillac) to just name a few.

Also, realize that the CTS is the cheapest Caddy, while the S2000 is the most expensive Honda. Whether this makes much of a difference, I don't know. But i felt i needed to point it out.

While I think the new CTS is a step in the right direction for Cadillac, I'd still rather give my $30,000 to the BMW dealer for a Certified Pre-Owned 5 Series. And that's another thing too - why did Cadillac have to copy the alphanumeric naming system that BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus had? They should have just called it Catera version 2 :p

Those cars have more than twice the motor of the honda though, thats what your forgetting.

I've got a honda that can beat all your caddys.

Looks like the CTS-V would beat your S2000 to crap. And can carry passengers and cargo and driven in the winter...

you can't drive a V in the winter, don't give me that bullcrap, at least not in new england. Posi don't mean much when your only five inches off teh ground if that.

I think ben is pretty accurate though.

Those cars have more than twice the motor of the honda though, thats what your forgetting.

The honda is at least a full 1000lbs lighter than the all those cars. Small convertables are NOT good winter vehicles. With some Blizzaks the car is fine for driving in the city.

I live in Canada, we get LOTS of winter...

Yea, well... I live in New England, and we get a whole lot of everyones crap.

Honda's are, as most good Jap Cars (Toyota, Nissan, etc.) are, reliable. That's the draw to a Honda. As a whole, they're so maintainance free, its crazy. Very well engineered automobiles, for what they are. American vehicles still have a ways to go (even though they are catching up)


I see that this myth prevails despite all the evidence Goth, RB, and myself have shown. I hear what you are saying about interiors, with that in mind, even my Dad's 1979 Nova is rattle and squeek free! I can also point to web sites that have many upset Toyota Corolla owners who have complained of rotten egg smell, as well as rattles and squeeks, etc.

I estimate another 10 years before people start getting out of the myth that the current Jap cars are somehow superior. I've posted MORE than enough evidence on this thread to dispell any Japanese auto superiority IMO. With the exception of Lexus, but that gap will close.

I see that this myth prevails despite all the evidence Goth, RB, and myself have shown. I hear what you are saying about interiors

My CTS is an early 2002 build and I have over 50k miles on it. Not a squeek so far. I also find the interior to be of better quality than my previous Eldorado and ETC. Those both developed rattles (although neither were as bad as my brother's Civic :halo: ). The materials in the CTS look harder than they are due to the crease design. Most are soft to the touch though. The center console and armrest are the only two areas that I would say are made of 'cheap plastic'. The rest isn't any worse than what has been used in Caddys in the past... and the rubbery dash and firm door pulls are definately of better quality than most.

My CTS is an early 2002 build and I have over 50k miles on it. Not a squeek so far. I also find the interior to be of better quality than my previous Eldorado and ETC. Those both developed rattles (although neither were as bad as my brother's Civic :halo: ). The materials in the CTS look harder than they are due to the crease design. Most are soft to the touch though. The center console and armrest are the only two areas that I would say are made of 'cheap plastic'. The rest isn't any worse than what has been used in Caddys in the past... and the rubbery dash and firm door pulls are definately of better quality than most.

I sat in a brand new orange (I don't keep up on the names of colors too much) CTS this weekend and I was VERY impressed. I do like the look of wood mind you, but impressive. I found nothing cheap in that CTS, and I bet in 10 years with minimal care your interior will look as mint as my 1991 interior with only 30,000 miles! It still appears and smells factory fresh!!! If people have wrecked and worn interiors perhaps they should consider what they are doing to them? The dog or family cat running around in it? Children spilling drinks like sticky pop, etc. Like I said, with minimal care...

I should have added that the 1991 Grand Marquis I sold to my Dad is still rattle free with 235,000 kms on it, as well as a rattle free Cadillac Fleetwood fwd, and no complaints here.

I estimate another 10 years before people start getting out of the myth that the current Jap cars are somehow superior. I've posted MORE than enough evidence on this thread to dispell any Japanese auto superiority IMO. With the exception of Lexus, but that gap will close.

Notice how i said AMERICAN cars; i too think that GM makes superior automobiles, but as a whole, Japan (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.) makes better cars than America (Ford, especially Chrysler, some GM). Besides being more reliable (as a whole, mind you) Jap cars tend to have better styling (i.e. Honda S2000, Mazda everthing :p , Nissan) vs their American counterparts(i.e. Chevy Cavalier, Pontiac everything, and most Fords) just look bland.

To be frank about it, if American cars were as reliable as Jap cars, Mechanics would be on welfare. ;)

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!! !!!!! :rolleyes2

To be frank about it, if American cars were as reliable as Jap cars, Mechanics would be on welfare. ;)


I agree with you as far as the lower end cars, but when you look at middle to higher end autos, it seems the japanese are no better than the americans or the europeans, they all have problems!! The more gizmos that go into a car, the higher likelyhood something will fail, and in the modern marketplace ALL manufacturers buy parts from the same place (Bosch, Delphi, Brembo, etc.) I bought a American made quad with VDO gauges on it! I agree that GM makes better vehicles overall than the other two (except electrical systems, GM is the worst), fact is when a import breaks down, its a "mechanical object that needs fixing from time to time" where as the domestic is a "inferior build" when it breaks, its just bad misconception.

since we cant compare a Caddy to the s2000 (which to my understanding stands for shit2000 or 2000lb shit :hmm: ), well take another american car company :), namely Ford.
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Ford/2004_ford_shelby_cobra_concept_manu_03.jpg

i think the pictures says it all, but here are the specs:
6.4L v10 that pumps out 605bhp :eek:

u can figure it out from there :D

since we cant compare a Caddy to the s2000 (which to my understanding stands for shit2000 or 2000lb shit :hmm: ), well take another american car company :), namely Ford.

i think the pictures says it all, but here are the specs:
6.4L v10 that pumps out 605bhp :eek:

u can figure it out from there :D

Of course we can figure it out from there. Its a FORD, as in Fix Or Repair Daily, Found On Road Dead, or whatever acronym you want to use. Fords will never be up to GM's level. Period. As long as they keep their mediocre styling (on the models that normal people buy, not the $150,000 GT), and their overall non-reliable Engines, Transmissions, Rollovers :p , and whatever else they will be Fords. Remember Pimpin Whity, Friends don't let friends drive Ford.

etcCanuck, you are right about the majority of problems being in lower end models (i.e. Chevy Cavalier, Pontiac Sunfire, Cadillac CTS :p ) but the Jap high end models (i.e. Lexus LS 430) are exceptionally better than Cadillac models(Deville especially and also Seville) when it comes to reliability.

Just to add fuel to the fire, the Consumer Reports "Cars of 2004" had only one Domestic car (Ford Focus SVT) and Kelley Blue Book's "Top Value Holders or 2004" listed NO Domestic Cars. It's not a "myth" as some of you are calling it. It's TRUE. TRUE. TRUE. I know you don't want to accept it, but overall Imports are just better. Period. in everything :p .

Hey, whitey, we'll have a little race, and i think i'll give you a head start :)

.
It's TRUE. TRUE. TRUE. I know you don't want to accept it, but overall Imports are just better. Period. in everything :p .

Consumer Reports gave the CTS (V) a bad review despite it selling in record numbers, and the other quality surveys all praised it. Someone once said "they should stick to reviewing toasters," which about summs it up. Also, from what I've heard, CR has advertizements for autos, etc. in their magazine. So, do you thing they are going to give a good review to an automaker that didn't support them??? Kinda like politics huh??? :shhh:

In the end, I guess you are right, what does JD Powers know anyway? I mean all those annoying people do is poll owners of certain autos and report fact. :hmm: :lildevil:

Funny thing about all this is I never compared a Honda directly to a Cadillac...... Acura, but not Honda.

I love how you Detroit junkies love to take stuff out of context to make it convenient for your arguements, especially when I initially praised the CTS for being the first true European and Japanese fighter from GM.

Almost makes me embarrased to actually be looking at them, knowing my future fellow Cadillac owners are territorially biased beyond reason.

Having owned Hondas for years and actually considering a CTS shows true open mindedness...... something some of you need to work on.

The reason I joined this forum in the first place was to find out all I could about the CTS from experienced CTS owners. But you know what I found? People who own Cadillacs other than CTS seem to be rude. People who own a CTS are pretty nice. I've been on Honda and Acura forums for years, and I'd assimilate typical CTS owners to any Acura or Honda owner, while the rest of Cadillac owners seem to have a chip on their shoulder, as if "how dare that person who's driven an import for so long have an interrest in a Cadillac".

hahah Hondas arent even close to being high end.

Funny thing about all this is I never compared a Honda directly to a Cadillac...... Acura, but not Honda.

I love how you Detroit junkies love to take stuff out of context to make it convenient for your arguements, especially when I initially praised the CTS for being the first true European and Japanese fighter from GM.

Almost makes me embarrased to actually be looking at them, knowing my future fellow Cadillac owners are territorially biased beyond reason.

Having owned Hondas for years and actually considering a CTS shows true open mindedness...... something you all need to work on.

If you bothered to read any of my posts from last year, when I was offered $22,000 for my car, I came within 500 dollars of buying a Honda Civic!! Boy, am I glad I declined.

I have also commented on how the only German car I would buy is a BMW because Benz is not looking good for the '03-'04 model year concerning electronics, etc.

Don't be shy around here, you can call me out by name if you have to. :devil:

p.s. you should be thrilled that Canadians are fully supporting the AMERICAN economy by purchasing more than 50 percent of all U.S. auto exports. Something to think about, eh?

Don't be shy around here, you can call me out by name if you have to. :devil:


I'm not calling anyone out specifically, I don't even know anyone specifically here. I do, however, get the feeling there are two distinct, vastly different genres of Cadillac owners:

CTS, and all others.

I'm not calling anyone out specifically, I don't even know anyone specifically here. I do, however, get the feeling there are two distinct, vastly different genres of Cadillac owners:

CTS, and all others.

Well, at least you know me. LOL! Sorry if I seemed harsh in the past. I guess I was trying to get my points across and I'm a bit of a brute sometimes. :want:

There are just so many different types of Cadillacs I confess I hardly ever get to the Seville, CTS, Escalade forums very often, but it's fun to learn about them.

Hey, whitey, we'll have a little race, and i think i'll give you a head start :)
if u're implying that u'll be in a s2000 and me in that new cobra then yeah.
but if u want me to degrade myself to even think about racing your about to roll over Blazer in my Cadillac then u dont know what u're saying.

and why is Ford bad? look at the whole line of Mustangs, Cobras and GT 40s they made. and the 06 Mustang Cobra is going to kick some serious butt. u guys dont know what u're talking about. "imports are just better" yeah, of coarse they are, better to drive then lawn mowers that is (i'm not refering to any European cars like Jaguar, Mercedes, Aston Martin, etc....). but yeah an Acura coupe has better crash test ratings (u know how they test that), but what they fail to test is my caddy slamming through the side of that Acura, i wana see the results of that crash test.

BTW, Ralph, Natasha is looking sexy today :thumbsup:

BTW, Ralph, Natasha is looking sexy today :thumbsup:

Thanks! You had better not be implying there are days she doesn't look good! Because THAT'S just impossible. ;)

I still believe that the new Cadillacs will get the reputation back for quality over imports but time will prove all I guess. My Dentist friend has a 2002 S2000, and it realy is silly how it has to be revved to get ANY kind of decent power. But, they are light, so it doubles as a little coffin if you have an accident, so in that way, I guess they are practical cars. :hmm:

I still believe that the new Cadillacs will get the reputation back for quality over imports but time will prove all I guess.

....Or the japanese and euro imports will continue their decline in quality and people be saying how their Korean or Taiwanese car is FAR better build quality than the japanese.... :)

....Or the japanese and euro imports will continue their decline in quality and people be saying how their Korean or Taiwanese car is FAR better build quality than the japanese.... :)
i can imagine:
now -- <asian accent> "my Honda S2000 is way better then your POS Porche GT2......ahahahaha!!!"
future -- <korean accent> "my Hyundai Elantra is way better then your Honda Accord, it is more reliable and weighs 4 times less so it requires a .5L v2......hahahaha!!!!!"

P.S. i hope i'm not around when this happens :hide:

....Or the japanese and euro imports will continue their decline in quality and people be saying how their Korean or Taiwanese car is FAR better build quality than the japanese.... :)

Actually those are good points! Anything from Taiwan is good quality, its China's quality that seems to leave a lot to be desired. However, China's economy is beginning to boom and there is a huge untapped market there for quality American Luxury cars, etc. I even posted in the rumour section about China's economy sparking the development of the Cadillac Sixteen. (from Carconnection.com) Apparently China has many new millionairres because of this growth and they are beginning to demand luxury products.

The Japs have slipped in quality as evidenced by the current ratings, but the perception of quality persists.

i can imagine:
now -- <asian accent> "my Honda S2000 is way better then your POS Porche GT2......ahahahaha!!!"
future -- <korean accent> "my Hyundai Elantra is way better then your Honda Accord, it is more reliable and weighs 4 times less so it requires a .5L v2......hahahaha!!!!!"

P.S. i hope i'm not around when this happens :hide:

I read somewhere (maybe Car connection) that Hyundai tied and/or beat Toyota in quality/fit and finish! It's happening my friend! :shhh: 7 years ago Hyundai was junk, remember the Pony? :histeric:

Today I took a look at the Kia "Arnage" ? Anyway, its the larger Kia that looks like a Jag S-type with all the wood in it. I couldn't believe how beautiful it looked, round, tapered headlights, etc. but then I remembered that Kia is near the bottom of JD Power along with Land Rover and VW. :shhh:

Thats how the Japanese started, The first Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla were pieces of $hit at best, the only thing they had going was the LOW price tag.

[QUOTE=Pimpin_Whity]if u're implying that u'll be in a s2000 and me in that new cobra then yeah.
but if u want me to degrade myself to even think about racing your about to roll over Blazer in my Cadillac then u dont know what u're saying.
QUOTE]
:confused:

Thats how the Japanese started, The first Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla were pieces of $hit at best, the only thing they had going was the LOW price tag.

And the American car companies were exactly the opposite; you went from the Ford SHelby Mustang to the ....hmmm....lets randomly pick one....how 'bout the '82 mustang. They went from beauties to beasts (and i mean UGLY by beasts :p )

Hell, the cars would probably still be ugly today if it wasn't for Mazda introducing the *risky style* of the Miata way back in '89. SO not only were Jap cars more reliable than American cars, but they started to look better too.

And what did the American manufacturers do? Not a damn thing! They severly underestimated how strong the Jap cars would become and just kept making ugly, unreliable cars (i.e. Cadillac Cimarron anyone???) By the time GM realized what was coming, it was too late. Honda and Toyota became the best sellings cars in America, and its all GM's fault for being lazy and underestimating the competition.

Sure, GM will probably get up to a decent level of reliability and styling in about 10 years, but they're going to have to stay on the track they're on now. And even now, the cars are somewhat OVERstyled. (i.e. Chevy SSR, Cadillac CTS, new Corvette, etc.) The CTS was way too much of a change, and even though we've gotten used to it, its still a boxy sedan with curves. The "styling" isn't too refined, as you would see on a BMW, Mercedes, even ACURA! The overall exterior of the CTS looks like an afterthought, with its JUMBO headlights/fog lights, ugly, unrefined grill (EXCEPT ON THE CTS-V, which looks okay), and CHEAP INTERIOR!

To be quite honest, if they just made the CTS look like the CTS-V, it would be a great sedan. They could still have the V with the LS6 V8, and just keep the CTS with V6 and a nice looking exterior.

Anyways, i should probably stop ranting now.... :p

And the American car companies were exactly the opposite; you went from the Ford SHelby Mustang to the ....hmmm....lets randomly pick one....how 'bout the '82 mustang. They went from beauties to beasts (and i mean UGLY by beasts :p )

Hell, the cars would probably still be ugly today if it wasn't for Mazda introducing the *risky style* of the Miata way back in '89. SO not only were Jap cars more reliable than American cars, but they started to look better too.

Which 80's Jap car was actually nice?? Miata? Ugly. Honda? Ugly. Toyota? Ugly. You can say american 80s car were ugly, but the jap cars were even worse. As for current styling, I dont love the new style CTS, but on the other hand at least when it drives by it looks different. BMW started making unique style vehicles a few years ago, Mercedes hasnt changed in years, and Acura is the flagship for BORING!!!! And if you're looking for a cheap interior, try looking in one of those acuras. If you want to see REALLY ugly styling cues, look at the massive tail-lights on a Acura MDX, or the entire Honda Element (WTF were they thinking?) Or look at Lexus, they have a good build quality but the exterior looks like a $20,000 car. (Aside from the SC). The Japanese have produced VERY few cars that I would call beautiful, they have never been styling leaders by any means.

or the entire Honda Element (WTF were they thinking?)

What the hell were they thinking??!! Even if that thing had a Vtec V12, I would still laugh at it. The box I put my dress shoes in is more attractive, but that doesn't mean I want to drive it either. :D

The 1970's Jap cars were JUNK imo! If you lived in a small town, you could never get parts for them, and how many of them do you still see on the road today??? Everyday I see 70's cars and trucks (remember Mercury trucks, Fargos, etc.) on the road so no one can tell me about long term quality. (which is the area the Japanese have lost ground in recently)

That kind of silence is spooky. I like hearing the growl of my V8. :)

Acura knows that it competes in a higher-volume lower-end segment of the luxury market, giving existing Honda owners a place to move up. But they do not and will not compete aggressively in the 60k-80k area with MB, Infiniti, Lexus, VW, and Audi.

I guess you could call Acura a "practical luxury" brand. That said, the new TL has some pretty ritzy features.

-Jesda

To be quite honest, if they just made the CTS look like the CTS-V, it would be a great sedan. They could still have the V with the LS6 V8, and just keep the CTS with V6 and a nice looking exterior.


You do realize that the CTS-V has the exact same body as a CTS but with a body kit don't you? I agree it looks a bit more menacing, but the overall designs are literally identical. The front bumper cover and slight flair in the sideskirts are the only major differences at all in body design.

Your opinion that the CTS grill is too large but the V one is just right is confusing too seeing as the two parts are exactly the same size.

You know whats funny, these two car companies are completely uncomparable. :deadhorse

These people had good luck with their 1991 Fleetwood fwd:

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-207F-57CA980-39A81A27-prod3


I wish I could find some more reviews.

Uh OH, an Acura complaint of no torque, bad seats, and horrendus turning radius, what is the world coming to? :lildevil:

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-39B1-36C03D02-3A498E7B-prod5

You know whats funny, these two car companies are completely uncomparable. :deadhorse

Good Summary!!! :blasted:

anybody seen the commercial with the hondas and there owners?


http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/antihonda.php

that's a really sad commercial, execpt for the michal jackson part :histeric:

while as sad as it is, that was the piont i wanted to make when i opened the thread today.
when i see a more beautiful and reliable toyta solara instead of a cadillac edorado in a mafia car shase getting hit by 4000lb cars and shot up whith maching guns and drivng away then i'll go "tade mine in, for like.......10 of those".

there are examples of bold styling of japanese companies on the street today, the late 90's caddy real license plate holders on the lexus, the porche 911-ness of the 350z, the s class merc-ness of the lexus ls, the "ugly" 80's 5.0 stang styling on a truy ugly 90's supra.........i can go on forever about innovative japanese styling, but because of time and space issues i choose not to.

I think those new Solara convertibles are very nice looking, especially with the white leather and dash to match with silver accents for stereo, etc.

I think those new Solara convertibles are very nice looking, especially with the white leather and dash to match with silver accents for stereo, etc.

better looking then your caddy?

just went to toyota.com and looked at the new solara and it looks like a deformed lexus cs (like the lexus isn't deformed enough). and they actually offer stock rice parts, i can imagine them selling stock civics with wings and body kits :histeric:

better looking then your caddy?

For a classy luxury car, no way man, I'll keep mine. However, for an upscale (from a Civic :lildevil: ) coupe that is of a decent mid-size, the Solara looks pretty good. I like the rounded curved corners. It seems like every car including Cadillacs are getting boxy again, and not that there's anything wrong with that, but I guess I like curves, and not just on cars either. :yup: :yawn:

You would have to see one in person I suppose. They are bigger than you would magine. Aren't they a 2 door Camry basically? Still fairly powerless like most Toyotas, but nice looking.

i've seen alot of them on the highway, mostly in the rear-view mirror :D
but if i was buyig a car for my daughter (who is 12 and wants one to drag around on a string) then yeah, it's cool (she can even put a life sized barbie in there).

for my daughter (who is 12

You must have slept with your elementary teacher. Go Pimp. :thumbsup: ;)


I would never buy one, but it does seem to look a LITTLE like a Mustang. Maybe that's the only reason I can stand the sight of them for more than a few seconds. :D

Wow, this isn't a message board it's a circle jerk. The CTS is a decent car, but it's nothing I'd go around puffing my chest about. I remember a kid brought a CTS-V to one of our meets. He spun (not intentionally) in the mall parking lot and almost killed a few people, impressive. :rolleyes2 One of my friends has a CTS 5spd, it's an alright car but it's no BMW. Another time I was driving along in my car with 3 other people in it and some tools (4 in their car) in a Northstar Seville (I know it's a Northstar because one guy felt the need to hang out his window and yell it repeatedly) convinced me to run them. My car was ~170hp and 2900lbs (sans people) then, and he could at best pull 3/4 of a car on me from a ~20mph roll (and I beat him once). Damn fast huh? All the previous caddies are huge ass floating boats and the new ones are like downgraded bimmers. I realize this is a caddy board, but you all are awful pompus for driving such mediocore cars.

P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I signed up because I was thinking of buying an older Seville STS, b/c they are hella cheap, big, and decent highway cars. I just couldn't help myself when I read this thread.

I realize this is a caddy board, but you all are awful pompus for driving such mediocore cars.

No, actually the term "pompus" belongs to BMW and Benz drivers. The Cadillac people I know on this Forum are the best I've ever met. You won't find people on the Benz forum willing to help others as on this Forum. I suggest you observe a little more BEFORE making insulting judgements like this.

If a CTS-V is "mediocore" what the hell do you call your Subaru?! And what does any of what you said have to do with Honda? And to think I "welcomed you" before I saw your trolling. :tisk: You obviously do not plan to buy an STS like you mentioned on your introductory, so why pretend?

i was hoping this thread just wouldnt come back. and ive tried so hard not to continue to post into it. but this guy has left me no choice.

idk about you (or your subaru) but i appreciate cadillacs for what they are an AIM to be. the only lac with the intent of being "fast" was the cts-v. ALL of the rest are affordable (i use the term loosely) luxury cars. what is the craze of having such a fast car anyways. i argue with people all the time about this. the fact that your subaru will hit 60mph 4 seconds faster than my cadillac doesnt mean a thing to me. on the highway, the speed limit is generally in the 65 range. traffic can move at around 80 at times. hey guess what!? my car can travel at 80 too!!! IMAGINE THAT. i didnt buy a cadillac with the idea of racing anybody. i bought it for the reliability and comfort factors.

unless the legal limit increases x2 and you plan on driving your subaru at 140mph CONSTANTLY day in and day out and exceed 200k miles while riding in extreme comfort...i dont see any advantage.

until you do, ill continue to float around in my cadillac.

No, actually the term "pompus" belongs to BMW and Benz drivers.

Just because they are also, doesn't mean you are less.

The Cadillac people I know on this Forum are the best I've ever met. You won't find people on the Benz forum willing to help others as on this Forum. I suggest you observe a little more BEFORE making insulting judgements like this.

I was searching for Seville mods for 40-50min before I posted anything.

If a CTS-V is "mediocore" what the hell do you call your Subaru?!

It's a great car for what it was designed to do. It rails on back roads, dirt roads, and snow. It's been dead reliable and tons of fun. I'd say it hit it's design target right on. Caddy on the other hand is a midpack luxury brand and really fails to distinguish it's self.

And to think I "welcomed you" before I saw your trolling. :tisk: You obviously do not plan to buy an STS like you mentioned on your introductory, so why pretend?

What makes you think that?

i was hoping this thread just wouldnt come back. and ive tried so hard not to continue to post into it. but this guy has left me no choice.

Did I hold a gun to your head? You had a choice.

idk about you (or your subaru) but i appreciate cadillacs for what they are an AIM to be.

What they are an AIM to be? I assume you mean what they aim to be? They aim to make up the ground they lost to the German brands and are now losing to the Japanese brands. Caddys are absolutely getting better but they are still outclassed by their competitors.

ALL of the rest are affordable (i use the term loosely) luxury cars. what is the craze of having such a fast car anyways. i argue with people all the time about this. the fact that your subaru will hit 60mph 4 seconds faster than my cadillac doesnt mean a thing to me. on the highway, the speed limit is generally in the 65 range. traffic can move at around 80 at times. hey guess what!? my car can travel at 80 too!!! IMAGINE THAT. i didnt buy a cadillac with the idea of racing anybody. i bought it for the reliability and comfort factors.

unless the legal limit increases x2 and you plan on driving your subaru at 140mph CONSTANTLY day in and day out and exceed 200k miles while riding in extreme comfort...i dont see any advantage.

I guess it depends on your priorities. If all you want is a car to cruise the highway the caddy works great (which is why I was considering buying one). Some people like myself live where the road turns though and there the caddy save the CTS-V is not really in it's element. My Subaru would most likely destroy every caddy but the CTS-V (which I'll beat too with some more money) in most every performance measure save high speed acceleration. There is your advantage.

Maybe you dont' know this, but caddies hold up a lot better than subarus in accidents. I remember a friend hitting a subaru in his dads burb. THe kid was being an ass, and the suburbans bumper almost broke the drivers back. Damage on the burb. A dent on the front bumper. You do the math.

Looks like I have to deal with a "fighter" who thinks he is better educated than everyone else and probably got kicked off the Suburu Forums.

I'll sum up everything nicely for you. Nice and simple for your mind that is stressed so you bring it here and dump it on us:

You don't know me and yet you dare call me pompus! Shame! :tisk: Some peoples children. :helpless: You sound very jealous or bitter for some reason, but you should not try to insult people here and burn your bridges so fast. You have insulted by calling our cars mediocure at best, and Cadilac owners as pompous. What if you buy a Cadillac, what then? Would you take it back, or too proud. (I'm betting the latter) And don't kid me about wanting to buy a real car (Cadillac) because no one has ever come on this Forum flaming the brand and expecting to fool anybody. :helpless:

WOW!! You searched a whole 40-50 minutes!!?? Pin a rose on your nose. That's quite an accomplishment. :cookoo: Yet you know everything about Cadillacs and everything about the personalities of the members of the forum are all pompus for driving a nice luxury car and not a Honda wannabe. Go back to driving your little shoebox that looks like every other car on the road today. You got a good job, why don't you buy some class, anything but an award winning Cadillac because you wouldn't appreciate it anyway. :helpless:

As for Cadillacs being "outclassed by their competitors" that is purely your opinion. (and an uneducated one at that!) I, on the other hand have provided much proof throughout this thread if you bothered to read the whole thing, regarding Cadillacs and posting links to other makes being MUCH more troublesome than any Cadillac. As well as quality surveys and reports. Toyota has lost a lot of ground and actually fall behind GM in long-term reliability. The Mercedes problems have been on-going in the last few years and their serious safety and electronic nightmares have become famous. The Japanese have lost ground overall and some owners like yourself must feel threatened by this and lash out at others for no reason! Even my MB dealer had to admit to me they are not what they used to be. If that isn't enough, there is JD Power whic currently places Cadillac in the number 2spot ONLY AFTER LEXUS. But you should know all this because you spent 40 minutes reading everything. :helpless:

I don't think I may waste my time with you again. You are just here looking for a fight when I am usually the most easy going person in the world to get along with, but wait, I'm pompus and my car is mediocure at best. :helpless: So you wouldn't know that. As if I would EVER have the nerve to go to the Suburu Forum and call their cars mediocure and insult them! I wouldn't be that reckless and stupid. That is something only a pompus, self-centered person who is jealous would do! :rolleyes2

In case you missed it, read this and see if ANY Cadillac problems are as bad. If you desire, I'll post some nice, deadly Japanese recalls and safety defects for you. Good Day Sir! (polite too)

http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/mlclass.php

Maybe you dont' know this, but caddies hold up a lot better than subarus in accidents. I remember a friend hitting a subaru in his dads burb. THe kid was being an ass, and the suburbans bumper almost broke the drivers back. Damage on the burb. A dent on the front bumper. You do the math.

Save your breath, he just wants confrontation and to feel superior with his Honda wannabe. Insults and name calling don't cut it with me. He has no plans to buy a Cadillac based on them being "outclassed" and "mediocure at best."

Some pompus people like myself see right through that crap. :shhh:

Easy boy. I understand. He can like what he wants, and when his car falls apart at 150k because he probably abuses it, then you can laugh at him.

awd ownz u... so you own a subaru eh??? my dick is bigger than your whole f****** car! hell, if you want to come on a cadillac forum and spew bullshit and start flaming, good then. i like to think of your type as MEDIOCRE: yes ownz u, that encapsulates you. tell you what, why dont i take a nice STS and run right into your car, and then lets race. you will then see who has the better car. better yet, why dont you just run your 2.5 rs into an alluminum trash can...i can imagine the damage then. i would bet a ricer wing that your car would be busted up pretty good.

2001 subaru impreza 2.5 rs
Transmission: Manual
0-60:
7.8

1/4 Mile:
16.1

1/4 Speed:
85

wow! what a fast and furious car DUDE!

guess what? my 4.9 will kill this thing...in a strait line and a line leading to the side of your car. wanna make a bet who's car will outlast the other? ill keep the nice ricer wing in handy DUDE.

2001 subaru impreza 2.5 rs
Transmission: Manual
0-60:
7.8

1/4 Mile:
16.1

1/4 Speed:
85

wow! what a fast and furious car DUDE!

guess what? my 4.9 will kill this thing...in a strait line and a line leading to the side of your car. wanna make a bet who's car will outlast the other? ill keep the nice ricer wing in handy DUDE.

I think the CTS would easily take him with 255 hp and 252 lbs ft of torque. He talks big, but I think he should post some kills in that section if he has such a world beater.

p.s. those Suburu's are so ugly and have NO CLASS. :shhh:

CADILLAC OWNZ U :histeric:

why dont you just run your 2.5 rs into an alluminum trash can...i can imagine the damage then.

Now now lets not ruin any trash cans, I am talking about the car of course.

As for ripin on the CTS, you may have AWD but I bet it may just out manuver you. Wow I think I could run a 16.1 second quarter mile ;). I will forgive you, but you do need to apologize.

then you can laugh at him.

But I'm already laughing at him. I wonder what he will flame next? The possibilities are endless. :suspense:

I like the new picture Ralph is she in a parking garage?


This guy gives a bad name to Subaru. Lance Armstrong should go and beat the crap out of him.

I like the new picture Ralph is she in a parking garage?


This guy gives a bad name to Subaru. Lance Armstrong should go and beat the crap out of him.

Nope, the set of "Species." Glass reinforced holding "cell." Please tell me you've seen that flick!!! pm me!

Forget about him apologizing, it's not in his vocabulary. Pee Wee Herman could do Lance's Job.

bwahahahahaa ...

A 2.5 RS smoking me ?????

thats rich , best one i heard all morning , being a long time subaru fan ive driven every version of the impreza and entire subaru line made since 1996 i know what your car is capable of ......

if you want to play with the big boys save your checks baggin grocerys at foodway and come back with a wrx ...that is if you know how to drive .....Ive eaten a few of those off the line(with my old G20 and my present cadillac) because there not lauching them right , or stalling them on the line ..

Now , the only way your gonna school me is in the corners , and thats a big maybe ...just last week i ran some ***** in a WRX thru my favorite section of twisties , HOW??? becuase he couldnt drive worth a damn .....as soon as the road strightend out he finnaly got by me , hes lucky i still have a 108 mph limiter .....

edit : as far as the subaru being a "unsafe" car , thats totally false , these are some of the safest cars out on the road , just take a look at the roof structure sometime ....there also very easy to work on