: Anyone get instructions for the W4M 9.5 Pulley and Heat Exchanger Installs?



Easy2speed
03-24-10, 03:34 PM
I did not get any instructions with the pulley or heat exchanger. I was curious to know what all needs to be removed to do each of them. Are you guys taking out the radiator and fans to do the pulley? Are you taking off the bumper to do the heat exchanger?

qictrk
03-24-10, 05:16 PM
There are no instructions. If you get stuck, give Jesse a call. For the 9.5 pulley, I am assumeing you have already changed the harmonic balancer. If it is true, then you only need to pull up the fans(4 bolts), air intake, and any thing else that is in the way. You don't need to pull the radiator. Be carefull of the A/C lines. BTW, the bottom two bolts on the fan assembly are a real bitch to get to.
The heat exchanger fits in the nose of the front end. You only need to take off the bottom cover. You will also need to buy a piece of hose and clamps for hook up. Jesse always says its easy. Thats because he is a A1 tech and can probably do it in his sleep. But for people like me, who only have limited experience, its work getting it all figured out. Best of luck, Cecil..........:D

CTSV4now
03-24-10, 05:52 PM
I've never purchased aftermarket parts that didn't come with instructions. Those items really should come with instructions. Case in point, when I call around to get install prices on the heat exchanger, I get a range between 1 hour and 5 hours. Jessie says in another post that its a 10 minute job.

These are not fly by night shops either, they do tons of work on LS cars. Install instructions would let them give better quotes.

Easy2speed
03-24-10, 06:25 PM
I've never purchased aftermarket parts that didn't come with instructions. Those items really should come with instructions. Case in point, when I call around to get install prices on the heat exchanger, I get a range between 1 hour and 5 hours. Jessie says in another post that its a 10 minute job.

These are not fly by night shops either, they do tons of work on LS cars. Install instructions would let them give better quotes.

I agree 100%. When I called Jesse asking for instructions, he acted like I was a dumbass for not automatically knowing how to install them. The local shops around here didn't want to do the install because the seller didn't have instructions. That is a clue to them that the parts may not be the greatest/best fitment and may not have good tech support - no matter if it is true or not. When I told them the heat exchanger has no brackets or mounting points, they all just looked at me like "why would you buy these parts for your $70k car?" I sent Jesse an email this morning and still have yet to get a response. When I sent him an email asking to purchase the parts, he responded within 5 minutes.

shortybighead
03-24-10, 09:54 PM
I could understand you wanting instructions..I am sure he will get them to you. I watched him install mine...it wasn't ten minutes but it wasn't 5 hours. Those shops are just trying to rape you. If they are reputable shops, who have performed these simple mods, there shouldn't be an issue. There's no secret to the install if they know what they are doing. Its not like the harmonic balancer and pulley come off and go on any differently then any other shops' parts. Night and day difference with the mods...enjoy.
PS. Hope your doing a mild cam as well!

Tony407
03-24-10, 10:40 PM
This is why I will probably not purchase anything from him that I am not already 100% confident that I can install myself - whether this comes from getting instructions from my fellow forum members or other sources. I certainly think highly of his products but for someone like me that relies on instructions to install mods, his business model leaves a lot to be desired. Your results may vary.

Isn't there a video somewhere of the heat exchanger install? Heck, there might even be one for the pulley too.

Tony

cbloveday
03-24-10, 10:46 PM
I could understand you wanting instructions..I am sure he will get them to you. I watched him install mine...it wasn't ten minutes but it wasn't 5 hours. Those shops are just trying to rape you. If they are reputable shops, who have performed these simple mods, there shouldn't be an issue. There's no secret to the install if they know what they are doing. Its not like the harmonic balancer and pulley come off and go on any differently then any other shops' parts. Night and day difference with the mods...enjoy.
PS. Hope your doing a mild cam as well!

Agreed, If the places really wanted to help you and knew what they were doing, they would contact Jesse and talk their languge and the let you know what they would do and charge. I have known of shops that fabricated brackets for their clients who bought the exchanger. It is not necessary but that tells you a little about the knowledge of the shop. I think there is more going on here. You have consulted the wrong shops IMO.

I would expect a more professional answer from those installers. I love my exchanger and do not have brackets and it has not moved at all in 2,000 miles. It did not take 5 hours at all to install. It would be considerably longer if brackets and mounts were fabricated and installed.

Sounds like one guy badmouthing another to me. I would be suspect. :annoyed:

I am sure Jesse will get back to you and write something up. Be patient, he is in demand and does travel from time to time.

Easy2speed
03-25-10, 05:46 PM
I am sure Jesse will get back to you and write something up. Be patient, he is in demand and does travel from time to time.

Still haven't heard anything from him. Oh well, I'll just take it to a big shop in Atlanta or Birmingham to get it done.

demorgan59
03-25-10, 06:46 PM
He's busy working on my car. Leave him alone!:histeric:Seriously, sometimes you can get him right away and sometimes it takes a day. Just keep trying and he will help you out.

cbloveday
03-25-10, 09:53 PM
What is he doing to your car? Are you having the blower ported? If so, I'm jealous! :crybaby:

thebigjimsho
03-25-10, 10:52 PM
What is he doing to your car? Are you having the blower ported? If so, I'm jealous! :crybaby:
I guess everything is relative... :nono:

Vrocks
03-25-10, 11:04 PM
My 9" pulley and harmonic balancer came with installation instructions. The instructions were for that part only i.e. not how to remove the fans, etc.

Ketzer
03-26-10, 10:36 AM
Seems like this comes up every other week. Most cases seem to be guys who are in over their heads and need some hand holding (a category I would fall into) and raise nine kinds of hell because Jesse isn't on standby for install questions. All kinds of comments about poor business and improper sales tactics bs. Then Jesse posts a perfectly reasonable explanation, helps the person in need, and we all go back to talking about scratched obsidian...

I think the guy does a hell of a job considering the clientele. He cannot be making much of a profit, period. The headaches with this crowd far outweigh whatever he nets. If you are going to constantly whine and bi-ch, price this stuff from Hennessey or Lingenfelter and go see them...

Some folks don't have ANY business modding their cars themselves. Some folks don't have reasonable expectations. Some folks have more money than sense. Please, don't be one of these people.

Jeff-

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 11:23 AM
Seems like this comes up every other week. Most cases seem to be guys who are in over their heads and need some hand holding (a category I would fall into) and raise nine kinds of hell because Jesse isn't on standby for install questions. All kinds of comments about poor business and improper sales tactics bs. Then Jesse posts a perfectly reasonable explanation, helps the person in need, and we all go back to talking about scratched obsidian...

I think the guy does a hell of a job considering the clientele. He cannot be making much of a profit, period. The headaches with this crowd far outweigh whatever he nets. If you are going to constantly whine and bi-ch, price this stuff from Hennessey or Lingenfelter and go see them...

Some folks don't have ANY business modding their cars themselves. Some folks don't have reasonable expectations. Some folks have more money than sense. Please, don't be one of these people.

Jeff-
And you've ignored the people who don't, or can't, work on their own cars and the shops doing the work want instructions.

I've never swapped a heat exchanger. I'd like instructions.

v4meinsandiego
03-26-10, 12:47 PM
I ordered the same kit and its fairly basic eventhough I did not install it myself. Most mechanics who do any aftermarket work on any cars should be able to handle this job quickly within 1 day. I had a local shop do it for me and then I plugged in my handheld tune and WOW. This is the best upgrade money can buy.

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 01:00 PM
I ordered the same kit and its fairly basic eventhough I did not install it myself. Most mechanics who do any aftermarket work on any cars should be able to handle this job quickly within 1 day. I had a local shop do it for me and then I plugged in my handheld tune and WOW. This is the best upgrade money can buy.
Yeah, but if it's a 10 minute job, why pay a shop a day's work?

Vrocks
03-26-10, 01:54 PM
And you've ignored the people who don't, or can't, work on their own cars and the shops doing the work want instructions.

I've never swapped a heat exchanger. I'd like instructions.
The heat exchanger is easy to install - compared to the pulley. It uses the factory hoses and can be installed from under the car. The underside of the front bumper has connectors that need to be released - then you can wedge the new one in. Once it's in and the hoses are hooked up you'll need to add fluid. The factory heat exchanger has a mechanism to let air out of the system as you fill it. If you don't open it the system won't fill completey, and the SC won't run as efficiently. Also, it's not a swap because the new one works in conjunction with the existing one.

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 02:14 PM
Conjunction Junction. Shows you how much I know...

Ketzer
03-26-10, 02:28 PM
And you've ignored the people who don't, or can't, work on their own cars and the shops doing the work want instructions.

I've never swapped a heat exchanger. I'd like instructions.

I thought you stayed at a Holliday Inn Express last holiday? :hide:


Jeff-

Tony407
03-26-10, 02:37 PM
Seems like this comes up every other week. Most cases seem to be guys who are in over their heads and need some hand holding (a category I would fall into) and raise nine kinds of hell because Jesse isn't on standby for install questions. All kinds of comments about poor business and improper sales tactics bs. Then Jesse posts a perfectly reasonable explanation, helps the person in need, and we all go back to talking about scratched obsidian...

I think the guy does a hell of a job considering the clientele. He cannot be making much of a profit, period. The headaches with this crowd far outweigh whatever he nets. If you are going to constantly whine and bi-ch, price this stuff from Hennessey or Lingenfelter and go see them...

Some folks don't have ANY business modding their cars themselves. Some folks don't have reasonable expectations. Some folks have more money than sense. Please, don't be one of these people.

Jeff-

I would not want to try installing a pulley or heat exchanger without instructions. Over my head? Maybe. But I put in a Kenne Bell supercharger in my '06 Mustang, but it came with instructions.

I think we should be clear. If you want Wait4Me modifications, just keep in mind that they do NOT come with instructions. This works for some people, but not for others. It's just a choice we should make carefully.

Tony

GMX322V S/C
03-26-10, 02:58 PM
Or...find a shop that you feel comfortable with enough to simply tell them to take as long as they need--just do it right. This is all I've ever told D3 as we sailed into uncharted waters. A competent shop should be able to figure out any of these systems. If they've never done something before, of course it may take longer if they're being diligent and careful.

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 03:15 PM
I thought you stayed at a Holliday Inn Express last holiday? :hide:


Jeff-
I did 2 weeks ago. But I think the brilliance has worn off. And I got up late so I missed out on the cinnamon buns...

demorgan59
03-26-10, 03:55 PM
What is he doing to your car? Are you having the blower ported? If so, I'm jealous! :crybaby:

Same as your car, except catted X pipe, modded air box, ported blower with stock upper pulley and 9 1/2" crank pulley. Should be good for 600 RWHP at 11 psi (SWAG).

cbloveday
03-26-10, 04:41 PM
Same as your car, except catted X pipe, modded air box, ported blower with stock upper pulley and 9 1/2" crank pulley. Should be good for 600 RWHP at 11 psi (SWAG).

All that fun without the fumes eh? :highfive:

Love it! Enjoy. :thumbsup:

Tell Jes, I want my blower ported Dammit!!!! :rant2:

Edit: I thought about all this and now I'm really mad.
I want a call from him tonight to schedule the blower porting and a nitrous setup.:cursin:

demorgan59
03-26-10, 05:09 PM
Don't forget the forged pistons!

demorgan59
03-26-10, 05:10 PM
We need to figure out how to stuff 305's (at least) on this thing.

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 05:11 PM
All that fun without the fumes eh? :highfive:

Love it! Enjoy. :thumbsup:

Tell Jes, I want my blower ported Dammit!!!! :rant2:

Edit: I thought about all this and now I'm really mad.
I want a call from him tonight to schedule the blower porting and a nitrous setup.:cursin:
Now, I can see porting the blower to reduce boost which could be nice for the track. Otherwise, you need to calm down. What is the point of adding mods in which the power is virtually unuseable? It gets old...

gnxs
03-26-10, 05:34 PM
We need to figure out how to stuff 305's (at least) on this thing.
On the right rim, a Nitto Invo 325/30/19 might be the ticket (for a non-DR). Love to see somebody try and fit one.

cbloveday
03-26-10, 06:12 PM
Now, I can see porting the blower to reduce boost which could be nice for the track. Otherwise, you need to calm down. What is the point of adding mods in which the power is virtually unuseable? It gets old...

Jim, just joking big guy. No plan on nitrous.

v4meinsandiego
03-26-10, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=thebigjimsho;2193088]Yeah, but if it's a 10 minute job, why pay a shop a day's work?[/QUOTE

The job runs about 4-5 hours depending on the shop. This is going to a bigger Crank Pulley, swapping the idler, and putting in the heat exchanger along with putting in a 160 stat. I paid about $500 to install all of it and was happy to pay it because the job came out without any hiccups.

Easy2speed
03-26-10, 07:38 PM
^ Yea, I don't mind paying what the install is worth. I just wish I had known that it didn't come with instructions. I never knew that an aftermarket part would come without instructions.

demorgan59
03-26-10, 07:46 PM
Jim, just joking big guy. No plan on nitrous.

You can never have too much money, be too good looking or have too much horsepower.:) But yeah, nitrous is a bit much I'll agree with that.

demorgan59
03-26-10, 07:50 PM
Now, I can see porting the blower to reduce boost which could be nice for the track. Otherwise, you need to calm down. What is the point of adding mods in which the power is virtually unuseable? It gets old...


That is my goal - to get close to 600 wheel and keep the boost down to reduce heat build up. Hope it works out.

Gary Wells
03-26-10, 08:48 PM
As far as the supercharger snout polish, user name Uriel advised in his post that he felt that the snout polish noticeably lessened his throttle response time from the "push foot mode" to the "giddy up and go mode".
No nitrous for this guy, but I ordered my "alky-Control" alky-methanol kit from Julio Wed. I don't know that it will make it on the 1st round of mods, or even if there will be a 2nd round of mods, but you guys all know how that goes. It has sure done wonders on my '87 turbo Buick, that's for sure. Great stuff. HTH

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 10:12 PM
The job runs about 4-5 hours depending on the shop. This is going to a bigger Crank Pulley, swapping the idler, and putting in the heat exchanger along with putting in a 160 stat. I paid about $500 to install all of it and was happy to pay it because the job came out without any hiccups.
I forgot about the pulley. I meant just the heat exchanger...

thebigjimsho
03-26-10, 10:13 PM
Jim, just joking big guy. No plan on nitrous.
:suspect:

DrumStix
05-18-10, 01:06 AM
I agree 100%. When I called Jesse asking for instructions, he acted like I was a dumbass for not automatically knowing how to install them. The local shops around here didn't want to do the install because the seller didn't have instructions. That is a clue to them that the parts may not be the greatest/best fitment and may not have good tech support - no matter if it is true or not. When I told them the heat exchanger has no brackets or mounting points, they all just looked at me like "why would you buy these parts for your $70k car?" I sent Jesse an email this morning and still have yet to get a response. When I sent him an email asking to purchase the parts, he responded within 5 minutes.

Hack job shit, eh? No instructions, no brackets for a $70K car. And yes, he acts like everyone is a dumbass. Maybe he's looking in the mirror while talking on the phone. ;)

wait4me
05-18-10, 09:28 AM
You guys 0 people have any issues with the heat exchanger EVER moving. Im sure the forums would be full of people complaining about it here once it is in if that where the case. I have made over 200 of them and personally installed over half of that. They fit perfect with no brackets needed...

AS for instructions. I tell everyone, it is just like changing a harmonic balancer. IF you look up instructions on how to change the balancer, that is all they have to do. It is one bolt holding it on.. How complicated can it be for a shop to figure that out.

I have TONS of videos that i dump on youtube all the time that walks you guys thru the installs.

I dont include instructions because 96% of people dont read them anyways, and call me no matter what asking the same EXACT questions. So why bother with instructions when they can just call me and i walk them thru it.... I HAVE NEVER TURNED DOWN A SHOP ASKING QUESTIONS ON HOW TO INSTALL PARTS OR TECHNICAL QUESTIONS ON THESE CARS.

In fact, 98% of all the parts you guys get put on your cars, the shops all call me with questions and or help with the install. Even when you guys dont buy the parts thru me and they dont either.. It dont bother me to do it for them and help, as long as your cars turn out the way you want im happy...

Weather the shops tell you that is the case is up to them, which i would doubt, but they all know who they are. ;)

I like helping out others. That is the only reason why im even here....

Q8 6.2
05-18-10, 12:55 PM
dont get me started on w4me.. they are your typical low quality give me all your money and ill try to come up with a million excuses thats its your fault.

no class W4ME shame on you.. i want my thousand dollar refund you are an AH its been 3 months already i dont want anything to do with you

cbloveday
05-18-10, 03:30 PM
Wow,

Not sure where that came from. In Jesse's defense, I have had the heat x changer for about 4,000 miles and it hasn't budged a mm. I even centered it myself, with the thread put up here by vseries.
I am certainly not a installer by any stretch of the imagination.


Everything you want to know is available on this forum via search or asking for help.I think the wait4me bashing is un called for.

If any one needs help installing the heat exchanger, pm me and I can help. A simple request and you'd be running cooler by now without the shop charge.

The other option would be to search the threads by vseries. He even supplied photos.

Good luck!

DrumStix
05-18-10, 03:51 PM
Wow,

Not sure where that came from. In Jesse's defense, I have had the heat x changer for about 4,000 miles and it hasn't budged a mm. I even centered it myself, with the thread put up here by vseries.
I am certainly not a installer by any stretch of the imagination.


Everything you want to know is available on this forum via search or asking for help.I think the wait4me bashing is un called for.

If any one needs help installing the heat exchanger, pm me and I can help. A simple request and you'd be running cooler by now without the shop charge.

The other option would be to search the threads by vseries. He even supplied photos.

Good luck!

That's fine. It's not what I call the appropriate level engineering. It's not what I deem a high level of service after the sale. Keep doing business as you choose. Good luck.

cbloveday
05-18-10, 03:59 PM
That's fine. It's not what I call the appropriate level engineering. It's not what I deem a high level of service after the sale. Keep doing business as you choose. Good luck.


This may help. I used it to center mine. Once you remove the bottom skid plate, not very involved, you will see. When you refill the fluid, you will need to remove the bleeder cap so all the air is out. Many installers do not do this and results in inefficiency. The bleeder is located at the top of the oem exchanger on the right if you are facing the front of the car. Shine a flashlight through the grill and it is easily visable. To get to it, I removed the plastic shroud just above the front clip. Under neath you will find several plastic screw clips that pop up and out. then remove the 2 bolts holding the front clip. I also removed the plastic shroud around the hood latch and got my arm in there. It cap screws off using a 3/8 wratchet head. Try it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/196435-does-w4m-heat-exchanger-replace-stock.html

DrumStix
05-18-10, 07:41 PM
I don't need help understanding how to install this and I used to own a late model shop in CA designing parts and working on all kinds of cars before selling and moving from tax hell.

Maybe this will help drag my point across.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/200411-car-drops-w4me-cooler-upgrade-onto.html

johncurrancampbell
05-18-10, 10:46 PM
:farting::farting::farting:
Wow,

Not sure where that came from. In Jesse's defense, I have had the heat x changer for about 4,000 miles and it hasn't budged a mm. I even centered it myself, with the thread put up here by vseries.
I am certainly not a installer by any stretch of the imagination.


Everything you want to know is available on this forum via search or asking for help.I think the wait4me bashing is un called for.

If any one needs help installing the heat exchanger, pm me and I can help. A simple request and you'd be running cooler by now without the shop charge.

The other option would be to search the threads by vseries. He even supplied photos.

Good luck!

cbloveday
05-18-10, 11:05 PM
I don't need help understanding how to install this and I used to own a late model shop in CA designing parts and working on all kinds of cars before selling and moving from tax hell.

Maybe this will help drag my point across.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/200411-car-drops-w4me-cooler-upgrade-onto.html


Point received and will fabricate a mount of some kind this weekend.


Hennessey Installation guide shows their mounting method.
Looks like I may have to take off the front clip and weld a bracket to the exchanger and then install.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-54734705425182/CTSV-heat-exchanger.pdf

DrumStix
05-18-10, 11:25 PM
C'mon guys, don't you want to hack off your mufflers and wire tie your heat exchanger?

He says he invented this LSA supercharger coupling that Lingenfelter sells for $23 cheaper but W4M says he sells at cost. :hmm: Seems kinda impossible unless Lingenfelter likes losing money. I think the transaction may be in the other direction.

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=L960130709&Category_Code=

His tune and he doesn't even kick the fans on any earlier than stock. Nice, 10% fan at 207 degrees, not hitting 100% until the coolant is at 235 degrees? Err, this car has a heat exchanger type supercharger. A good tune will start the fans on at roughly engine coolant temperature range. With a 160 t-stat, starting the fans at 170 is not a bad idea. Even with a stock t-stat fans should participate in cooling at the 190-195 range to keep heat soak out of the engine. We are not trying to run as hot as possible to save fuel like the factory optimization tune.
Bottom line is the stock heat exchanger is a lot more effective with the fans coming on at 170-180 and graduating up not to mention all of the timing that is pulled once the car gets over 215 degrees.

DrumStix
05-18-10, 11:29 PM
Point received and will fabricate a mount of some kind this weekend.


Hennessey Installation guide shows their mounting method.
Looks like I may have to take off the front clip and weld a bracket to the exchanger and then install.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-54734705425182/CTSV-heat-exchanger.pdf

Belt and suspenders when I'm running 125 through the quarter! Ever see a radiator hose come off a race car at 150, wash the slicks down and send the car into the wall? I'd mount that beast correctly.

Q8 6.2
05-19-10, 02:03 AM
ttt for my local time zone

shabab watch out form this company dizoly PM4info.

wait4me
05-19-10, 08:57 AM
C'mon guys, don't you want to hack off your mufflers and wire tie your heat exchanger?

He says he invented this LSA supercharger coupling that Lingenfelter sells for $23 cheaper but W4M says he sells at cost. :hmm: Seems kinda impossible unless Lingenfelter likes losing money. I think the transaction may be in the other direction.

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=L960130709&Category_Code=

His tune and he doesn't even kick the fans on any earlier than stock. Nice, 10% fan at 207 degrees, not hitting 100% until the coolant is at 235 degrees? Err, this car has a heat exchanger type supercharger. A good tune will start the fans on at roughly engine coolant temperature range. With a 160 t-stat, starting the fans at 170 is not a bad idea. Even with a stock t-stat fans should participate in cooling at the 190-195 range to keep heat soak out of the engine. We are not trying to run as hot as possible to save fuel like the factory optimization tune.
Bottom line is the stock heat exchanger is a lot more effective with the fans coming on at 170-180 and graduating up not to mention all of the timing that is pulled once the car gets over 215 degrees.

Show me the post where i said i "INVENTED" those issolators. I said i got some made, that was over a year ago and now there are other sources for them so we dont have to go that route anymore, just like most other parts we where getting made for the Vs are now being bought and sold thru other venders.
In regards to your post, i only buy 4 at a time on the issolators thru our supplier, lingenfelter probably buys 25+ so they are getting them cheaper than i am. I dont buy large bulk of stuff like others do. If there is another source for cheaper, by all means, ill stop stocking them and direct everyone to them for those. that dont bother me one bit...

As for the stuff about fan settings, I DO CHANGE THEM. I set them up for the thermostat the vehicle is running. The fan settings you are quoting are stock settings. However, without doing a full flash with a custom operating system, the system fans to be customizable under 192 degrees F. as the table boundries for that stop at that point. A custom operating system can not be flashed in with SCT handhelds and the computer would need to be sent to me for that modification, which i do for 0 charge for any customer that needs it done.

cbloveday
05-19-10, 01:15 PM
I have consulted with Lingenfelter and Wait4me on several occasions. Both speak highly of each other.

DrumStix
05-19-10, 05:30 PM
I have consulted with Lingenfelter and Wait4me on several occasions. Both speak highly of each other.

I know they do. All good.

W4M,
If I "Got some made" to me personally, 99% of the time it means I am running the manufacturing show with a sourced vendor to produce a part I spec'd. No biggie. Meantime I'm going to the store and get some milk n bread made. :duck:

You may change the fan setting now. I hope you are and I'm merely pushing for more open disclosure for the betterment of the the e-crowd here so no one has stuff go flying under the hood too often. Tuners exchange ideas, unless we assume to know it all.