: Just got a 95 seized for next to free



Thawcko
03-22-10, 08:54 PM
Just picked up a 95 with Northstar almost free, gave him what junk yard would have $100 Bucks... So going to pull the Motor.. I don't know if it was piston that locked up, have a small snake cam and looked down each plug hole and see no wall scorching or piston damage... The story I was told is That he had the head gasket repaired, Drove it for a month or so on a daily basis, started to see like copper color in the oil when he changed the oil, then started to hear a ticking noise, that got louder and then would quite down, then one day just shut of on him and would not crank....He got frustrated and did not want to put any more money into it and just wanted it gone... I put a bar or the harmonic balance nut and no way it turns... What other things beside piston would seize up? Bearings? I guess I will soon find out, when I pull the motor... But any hints would be great....

Thawcko
03-22-10, 09:15 PM
Also am thinking since head gasket was just done, I would like to at all costs not remove the heads if possible I would think? Or is it ok to remove the head bolts Now that it has been inserted, It is not Timeserts It is a longer more heavy thread Insert, he has one extra in the console... Also if all else fails It has great rims and new tires on the car, I could sell them and get more then what I paid for the car... This car is in great shape, looks like never hit,Great paint, white and is a Florida Car so no rust... This is just a project for me. Don't need the car and not looking to make money on it, If I fix it may drive and let visitors use it for transportation...

Ranger
03-22-10, 09:35 PM
Sounds like the inserts were "Norms" (better than Timeserts).

If the oil had a copper color and is seized, I'm guessing it had an oil pressure problem and the bearings are gone. You are gonna have to drop the drivetrain to check it out though. Standby and see if anyone else has any other opinions. One thing is for sure. You DO have yourself a project.

tateos
03-24-10, 01:33 PM
Yeah - sounds like a fun project - I am not being sarcastic. You've got no money at risk - you can tear it apart, figure out what you've got , take your time to repair or replace the engine, and have a nice spare car when you're done.

Yeah - sounds like Norm's inserts - feel free to pull the heads - you will do no damage assuming the inserts were installed properly.

Please keep us updated - how about some pictures - this one should be interesting.

zonie77
03-25-10, 06:46 PM
If they drove it to the point it was putting coolant in the oil it would've been eating up the bearings. You'll have to pull it and open it to be sure.

Thawcko
03-26-10, 08:57 PM
Well got it pulled today, tomorrow will start to open up the motor... Will a 91 non Northstar fit in this in any way? Reason I ask this is someone stopped by saw me pulling the motor and asked me if I wanted a 91 The car has 65,000 miles on it, but the body rear got smacked... I am assuming it wont fit but figured I would ask.... Will take pics along the way.....

Thawcko
03-26-10, 09:01 PM
Oh and also I do think that he ran it with it overheating for a long time, opened the trunk and there is about 10 Jugs of water, they are empty now but assuming that he was using those before the heads got done... also if low oil pressure was a problem (not that I know about) but if so what should I be looking for? Should I get a new oil pump? if I do end up repairing it???? Thanks...

tateos
03-26-10, 09:51 PM
Well got it pulled today, tomorrow will start to open up the motor... Will a 91 non Northstar fit in this in any way? Reason I ask this is someone stopped by saw me pulling the motor and asked me if I wanted a 91 The car has 65,000 miles on it, but the body rear got smacked... I am assuming it wont fit but figured I would ask.... Will take pics along the way.....

I guess anything is possible - depends on how hard you want to work at it. Probably wouldn't be easy...or worth it; I had a hard enough time R and R ing the Northstar that came in my car - would not want to tackle a retrofit, but hey, that's just me - some guys eat that stuff up!

Thawcko
03-27-10, 04:30 PM
If it don't just drop in with minor mods, I am not into that.. Well so far got the heads off, and all the other stuff like the alternator and that junk, got it somewhat separated from the Trany...Does not look like piston seize I can wiggle the pistons the amount the rings allow... But think I am going to have to pull the oil pan.. can not separate the Fly wheel from the clutch.. Can not turn the motor to get at the bolts.. and cant pull strait out, oil pan hits the cradle with the clutch attached... So taking a break for a few hours... hot out today... Mid to upper 80's ... I will post some pics today.... Thanks for any help along the way...

Thawcko
03-28-10, 04:24 PM
Well Found the problem.... Not sure what they are called is the split ring between the conecting rod and the crank, Well any way one of em cooked... turned all blue and was cooked onto the connecting rod... So will have to replace those split rings... The cam looks fine... and as soon as I disconnected that connector rod that was cooked on crank turns free... Any help on what that ring is called???? Here are some pics

Ranger
03-28-10, 05:06 PM
Ouch! Those are bearings. I suspect you'll need a new crank as well.

Thawcko
03-28-10, 07:26 PM
Here is the pic again with area in red box..... Those are the collars still on the crank all toasted... I will remove them and take a pic... Good collar in blue well one good other off

Thawcko
03-28-10, 08:41 PM
Pic with Connector bearing removed Crank in red fused together bearing in blue... What ya think? Ok to just replace bearings??? Hate to spend the cash on a new crank....

Ranger
03-28-10, 09:24 PM
That crank journal appears scored. Hard to tell from here, BUT for that bearing to get that hot, it was oil starved and almost HAD to have damaged the crank journal. You MIGHT be better off buying a junkyard engine and insert or stud it

samert
03-28-10, 09:58 PM
Pic with Connector bearing removed Crank in red fused together bearing in blue... What ya think? Ok to just replace bearings??? Hate to spend the cash on a new crank....

You would be wasting your $$$ if you just replaced the rod bearings. That crankshaft is ruined and it would just seize up again in short order. Plus the entire engine oil lubrication system has been contaminated from the bearings that burned up. To do it right the engine need to be pulled and completely disassembled, cleaned, inspected and a new crankshaft kit installed.

Ranger
03-28-10, 10:13 PM
Plus you have to wonder what caused that journal to oil starve in the first place.

stoveguyy
03-28-10, 10:19 PM
what model caddy is it? you said it was in good shape

Thawcko
03-28-10, 10:54 PM
The motor is pulled and fully dissembled.. That pick is the bottom end on a motor-stand upside down..The pistons are out heads off oil pan off ... Where do I get a crank? And How much? Not going to spend much on the car.. Don't need the car... Just figured it would be something to do.... I figured it may have got that heat from the guy who owned it running it for a long time with bad heads... Got contaminated oil... why would it only heat in one spot on the crank and all the rest look new??? Thanks for input... Any one have a used Crank????

Ranger
03-28-10, 11:11 PM
why would it only heat in one spot on the crank and all the rest look new?
THAT is the million dollar question that must be answered before it is put back together. I would seriously look for a junkyard engine.

Thawcko
03-28-10, 11:57 PM
Will probably just put this one in the Junk yard if it comes down to getting another Motor... The cost of that outweighs the need for the car...Was probably going to donate the car to a needy family or something along that line... couldn't see paying insurance or Registrations for a 3rd car that I would never use... Do you think that this could happen from coolant in the oil??? Who knows how bad it was or how long it went on.... Funny everything else in this motor looks great... Pistons rings all look great... and Shavings that are still on the trany from the head job, all shinny not black or dull... Maybe someone could use the block... If I can't get this back up cheap and you live in South Florida and need parts....

Thawcko
03-29-10, 12:08 AM
what model caddy is it? you said it was in good shape


1995 Cadillac Eldorado V8-4.6L VIN 9


Florida car so no rust at all..... Will take a pic of it tomorrow..

STSS
03-29-10, 11:01 AM
I have a good used crank.... probably $150-$200... anyone know what it costs to ship a crank?

Submariner409
03-29-10, 12:16 PM
Take a look at crank or engine prices in www.car-part.com. A crank is heavy and needs shipping protection. UPS ain't gonna be cheap.

Thawcko
03-29-10, 04:03 PM
I have a good used crank.... probably $150-$200... anyone know what it costs to ship a crank?

If you can find out what it costs let me know I am in Port St. Lucie Fl. 34987

Thanks.....

zonie77
03-29-10, 07:08 PM
I suspect he had coolant in the oil and that ruined the bearing.

Thawcko
03-30-10, 03:40 PM
I suspect he had coolant in the oil and that ruined the bearing.


That is what I am thinking, Like I said I don't know how bad the heads got and how long, but for sure they drove it that way, having all those jugs in the trunk... Should I get a new oil pump to be safe???? What else would have effect on oil pressure? The oil Pump looks fine, I cleaned the pressure relief in it and made sure it moves freely... So I guess It will come down to getting a crank.. One thing, does anyone repair cranks? Like I said I am in no rush, money saved far exceeds speed of this project..

Beaudreau
03-30-10, 04:36 PM
Just from looking at your crank pictures I can't see any obvious signs of having water mixed with oil! We both know that you did not clean it up so well that the water signs are gone! You drained the oil; what did it look like?

So, I got to looking at your pictures closer and what I think I see is red/copper hi-temp silicone squeezed out from a round hole, not a gasket surface!

I am not familiar with a N* at all, but that looks like a lot of silicone to me! If that is what I see; I would suspect clogged oil passages caused starvation to those bearings!

From what I have read here, the cranks can't be ground under size, nor should you repair if it even if it could be done, is not a cost effective measure! You should take the crank to a machine shop, they won't charge you for looking at it. It could be bearing material on the journal that would allow it to polish out within spec, you never know unless you check!

Shipping a crank should not be prohibitive, I suspect that it weighs less than 75 lbs and can even be sent USPS. I think that I have even seen 97EldoCoupe post what I thought was a very good price for a crank.

So, tell me what that orange stuff is and where it came from!

Thawcko
03-30-10, 05:51 PM
If your talking about the orange just above the Journal... Well that is an orange chain you can see on the floor Chain I used to lift motor to put it on stand.. threw the cylinder piston is removed... The oil was fine as I had said the heads where repaired before I got the car, oil had been changed after that and car was driven with heads fixed and new oil.... Supposedly car ran great after head repair, but not for long... Also I will take a look at all the oil passages to make sure they are clean.... Also AutoZone has Cranks for $259 with core... So thats not that bad I guess... Want me to move that chain and take a new pic to make sure that is the orange you see???


Here is a new pic chain is on top of block (Bottom , Block upside down)

Ranger
03-30-10, 08:30 PM
Don't forget, you need a complete new set of bearings, both rod and mains. DO NOT reuse the old ones. :tisk:

Thawcko
03-30-10, 11:03 PM
The Crank kit does come with some bearings right? Not sure what ones but was told comes with bearings, did not really understand the guy on the phone... But I caught it comes with bearings... I will make sure I get what ever bearings it does not have... Thanks for pointing that out, I probably would have just replaced the rod bearings....

Thawcko
03-30-10, 11:29 PM
This is what it says on there web site Autozone $251.99 Core Charge $20.00 Kit includes crankshaft with matching main and rod bearings; casting # 3525774, 211, 669, 3544669 and apparently the Crank comes from CRANKSHAFT REBUILDERS INC.
1200 Albright Road
Sanford, Florida 32771


Does this sound like a good buy??? No shipping charges is what I am liking...

Beaudreau
03-31-10, 02:54 AM
Yeah, that was the chain I was asking about. Should have known that you would not have missed it if it had been silicone! Thanks for the picture.

Personally, I think that is a great price for a crank kit! It's too bad that you don't know the actual history/story though! I'm still not convinced that it was coolant in the oil that caused the failure!

stoveguyy
03-31-10, 04:14 PM
nothing wrong with replacing a crank. just a rare repair on a northstar. i read a story about a guy with an acura NSX who spun a rod bearing and chewed up his crank journal. he had the crank turned and right away spun another bearing. than he got a new crank and several titanium rods and did some more damage. those nsx motors are pretty highly tuned.

Thawcko
03-31-10, 10:24 PM
Yeah, that was the chain I was asking about. Should have known that you would not have missed it if it had been silicone! Thanks for the picture.

Personally, I think that is a great price for a crank kit! It's too bad that you don't know the actual history/story though! I'm still not convinced that it was coolant in the oil that caused the failure!


I checked all the oil passages and all are clean in the bottom end, the oil pump, say that was removed, does it matter what way the gears got put back? I read you should mark them so they go back same way they came out... How can I assure this, If the heads got done, the timing may have had to be set, and if the timing cover was removed who knows if they took the oil pump out? Also is the oil pump mounted metal to metal? no gasket or O ring? What other things would make it have low oil Pressure?? Maybe the Harmonic Balance was not torqued correctly? There are different torques for that year depending what size bolt you have... If not to torque it may be possible the oil pump was slipping???? does that make any sense? Although the oil pump is not dependent on the torque is it? Just throwing things at the wall and see what sticks... Any thing you guys can come up with that would give bad oil pressure or lack of oil to that journal shout it out....

Beaudreau
04-01-10, 10:20 AM
Sure wish I could answer your oil pump questions, but you have shown me more in your pictures than I have seen of the inside of a N*. My experience is mostly with with SAAB 16 valve 4 cylinders and the push rod domestics, but I can give you some general info until someone that knows answers.

I have never seen a crank mounted oil pump that did not use a gasket and I think all have been the oil style formed gasket, but you would know because there would a groove for it to lay in. If by chance there is no such gasket I feel sure that a flange style of sealer would be used instead of there being a traditional gasket. This type of sealer allows the two surfaces to mate with zero clearance and drys anaerobically into a hard almost shellac that really just seals the pores between the two surfaces.

About the oil pump, I think that most that I have seen require the gears going in, in a certain way and as a general rule you should always put any wear surfaces exactly back how they came out, but I don't feel that would be critical in this situation.

From what I have read here the oil pump is not keyed and depends on the harmonic balancer being properly torqued to drive it, not enough and it would slip as you said.

Some general things that I have seen from experience: the rod journals always go before the crank journals, the rods furthest from the oil pump usually go first, engines with hydraulic lifters will normally lose pressure up top and the lifters will not stay pumped up.

I know this happens all the time, but I still can't believe that people still try to drive with oil lights on and an engine that is making all kinds of noise.

Last comment, even the rod journals that did not seize show blue coloration
from friction.

stoveguyy
04-01-10, 11:24 AM
i timeserted my block and about 1yr later my oil pressure relief valve stuck open so i had no oil pressure. lots of dash lights. no oil pressure, stop motor now and so on. not a good message to see. i overfilled crankcase and got PRV to seat. got lucky i guess. i saw some pics of a timesert job where the top of the block was covered in chips from drilling the block. that got me thinking. maybe i had some metal chips in oil pan? but you would think oil pickup screen would catch most if not all of those chips.

Thawcko
04-01-10, 03:40 PM
Oh in this motor they got shavings in the pan, the screen had them all stuck to it... Was not clogged most on the edges There where wire ties in the oil-pan also, When I did my insert job on the last car, I had rags in the Timing area and a vac going as i drilled to limit the shavings... Whoever did this one did not do any of those things... As far as the oil pump there was no gasket or sealer of any kind on it... So i will need someone to chime in that has removed one... I looked in alldata guide and it does not reference a gasket at all...

Beaudreau
04-02-10, 05:41 AM
I wish someone would chime in, but I am curious there wasn't even a groove for a gasket in the housing?

If not, they have the flange sealer for a reason! It's just is not cost effective to make metal surfaces so smooth or guarantee that they mate perfectly without something!

Ranger
04-02-10, 11:30 AM
Zonie, Tateos, Ewill or Jake could probably answer the question.

tateos
04-02-10, 05:46 PM
No gasket or seal I am aware of. The harmonic balancer bolt is tightened to a nominal torque (37 ft pounds maybe) and then 120 degrees. This is done after the balancer has been bottomed onto the oil pump drive.

Thawcko
04-05-10, 09:50 PM
Well the crank and bearings are coming in tomorrow, But need to get two connector rods.. The two that where attached on those fried bearings, I just dont feel comfortable putting them back, they took some heat and after all this would suck for that to be a problem... havnt had time to order em but hope to get em before the weekend, so I can try to put this back together and back in the car...

Thawcko
04-05-10, 11:14 PM
Where can I get connector rods????

jimsbox
04-06-10, 01:48 AM
Hey,

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/frameset.cfm

Connecting rod $150.71

If I were you I would give Jake at northstarperformance.com a call, his phone number is on the web site, he builds Northstars and I am buying one from him but I would not be surprised if he has some donor Northstar carcasses laying around that he might sell you a couple of used good rods from.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Jim

Thawcko
04-06-10, 03:39 PM
Thanks jimsbox, did what ya said and contacted Jake, and he had what I need... Thanks for the heads up....