: head removal



Pete315
03-03-10, 11:02 PM
In process of pulling rear head with engine in car for the head gasket job (figure I'll start with the hard side first). I know it has 10 head bolts but where are the other 3 smaller bolts that have to get removed? the shop manual says you access these from plugs on side of head. For the guys that have removed head while engine is in car, what is the easiest way to get at those 3 bolts?

Krashed989
03-04-10, 03:24 AM
The three 10mm bolts are around the timing chain. You can see the holes for them in this pic:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1402.jpg

The plugs on the side of the head are to access the chain guide bolts.

Pete315
03-04-10, 10:11 AM
thanks for the great pictures and quick response. I'm sure I'll be back with other questions.

97EldoCoupe
03-05-10, 01:34 PM
If you plan to do the in-car HG job, oddly enough someone has tried it with studs- and it does work. It's tricky though.

But very important - tape up the block - the pic above shows some chips in the oil drain-back passages. That could lead to engine failure quickly.

Pete315
03-05-10, 01:59 PM
To be honest, that's what I'm looking at. When I removed the front cradle bolts and removed the front motor mount, the block really tilts forward. How many inches does stud stick out the block? When I remove head, I could see how much clearance I have? I have noticed though the bottom of the engine is a little wet with oil, not soaked. Where do these Northstar's leak oil the most? What size is the harmonic balancer bolt? is it a 24mm? if so, I want to buy a 6 point socket so I won't strip the head of the bolt. I would love to install the studs. I'm up for the challenge! Luckily I'm in no rush to complete job. My HVAC plastic housing has some piece pieces missing from the heat back there. I might look for a good one and replace it. If I remove that housing, I probably will even have more room(any idea who might have an intact HVAC housing). Let me know Jake. Thanks.

stoveguyy
03-05-10, 05:33 PM
what is your plan? timeserts or norms? accessing the timing chains/tensioners is a pain with the motor in car but it is possible.

97EldoCoupe
03-05-10, 06:38 PM
The studs, on a 93-99 car stand up about 4.06 inches above the deck surface. Take the height of your cylinder head (around what, 4"?) and you will need about 8" total clearance at the lowest point of the block. One of my customers laid the head gasket on top of an upside-down head, put the studs through, started the nuts on the back-side and put the whole set-up into place. This requires the head to be 2" off the block surface. Carefully this can be done. Pete, I like your idea about tilting the engine forward. Not a bad plan at all.

Pete315
03-05-10, 08:04 PM
I am removing the harmonic balancer and taking the timing cover off so holding the tensioners will be easy. when you drop the front cradle, there is plenty of room to remove the balancer. I was going to use Norms however it looks like I may go the stud route if it's feasible.
Jake, got a question for you- after the holes are drilled and tapped, can the studs be screwed into the block with the heads and head gaskets in place. if so, I could have the studs placed into the head holes with the nuts in place holding the end of the stud just above the bottom surface of the head. The dowels can hold the head in place while I remove the nuts and screw down each stud into the block. Would this procedure work? What tool do you use to screw down the stud?

97EldoCoupe
03-05-10, 08:40 PM
Pete - this would work. I'm going to have to make an installation tool for you. It would be tricky because all studs would have to be screwed in at the same time.

If you're not in a terrible rush, could you please hold off for a short time on your repair? Maybe a day or two?

Pete315
03-06-10, 12:17 AM
I have weeks if needed. no rush at all.

97EldoCoupe
03-06-10, 09:51 AM
Let me get to work on an installation tool that will assist in driving the studs in place with the engine in the car. Pete you're going to have to be my test guy here. With 2" of clearance still needed it might be tricky but it has been done. I've got a 94 ETC in the shop right now that's having the engine removed- eyekandyboats.inc's old ride (still a real beauty) - I can have a bit of a look to see what I can help you with. You sir are receiving a small discount on your stud kit for being the first to document using studs in-the-car. I hope you'll post some info on the job as you're going through it. Thank you in advance!

Pete315
03-06-10, 11:54 AM
best part is I have been recording entire job (of course there is editing or CD would be 30 hours long) with my new flip camera. I've recorded where every sensor goes, what wrenches/sockets to use, the locations of the bolts and the # of bolts to remove parts. I figure with 100,000 members on this site, if I sell the CD for lets say $12, I should clear 1 MILLION DOLLARS. Maybe even an Academy Award.

ps-not sure what you mean about the 2" clearance but I'm sure you will explain. thanks.

97EldoCoupe
03-06-10, 12:57 PM
LOL good luck with the mil..... The academy award might be feasible! :thumbsup:

2" clearance - the height the head must be raised over the deck surface in order to position the head/stud assembly above the block for reinstallation..

Pete315
03-11-10, 05:41 PM
Job is coming along. I work on it an hour or two a day. Surprising, no real headaches yet. Just about to pull the harmonic balancer, then the heads. I believe at least the rear head has been off car already. The 2 rear heater pipes brackets were not secured to the pipes. The heater pipe bracket on the passenger side of right head was broken off(might need a new bracket). I noticed the lower bolt on the brace that goes from tranny to right head drivers side was only half way in(it is in a tight spot but someone was lazy). Finally, someone drew a line on both camshaft gears on the right head. No marks on the left head. I wonder if this car had a timesert job already! I removed 2 headbolts from the left head to see how tight they were. Man were they tight. I'm hoping to find some not as tight. According to the FSM, I don't have to remove the power steering pump to remove the heads. Is that correct?

tateos
03-11-10, 08:43 PM
I believe the PS pump can stay, but you may want to remove it just to get it out of your way. Yeah - the bolts that are still good REALLY snap when they come loose, and you can very easily tell once you get to the bad ones.

spin
03-12-10, 12:58 PM
Jake,

How would he check to make sure the stud shoulder was below the deck of the block if he installs the studs with the head as a unit? I would hate to see him go through all this work only not to have the gasket seal because the stud wasn't fully seated. I suppose he could run the studs in seperatly before the install to make sure they go all the way down, but that's no guaranty they would be seated the next time.

Pete,

Jakes studs are definately the way to go! I don't want it to sound like I don't want you to use them, I just want them to work right. If Jake says it will work, I would trust him. I used the studs on my car when I did the head gaskets and I'm a believer in the studs and Jakes work.

Pete315
03-12-10, 04:38 PM
Spin, any advise or wisdom is greatly appreciated. I'm guessing the studs just can't be tightened down until they bottom out? I really would love to read the instructions on the installation of the studs. Jake, maybe you could send me the instructions and your tips on pulling the engine out the top. Since the heads will be off soon, looks like it is not so much more work to pull engine out top if the studs can't be installed with the engine rocked forward.
If I want to remove power steering pump to make more room, do I have to pull the pulley off? looks like the bolts that secure pump to block are hidden behind the pump.

stoveguyy
03-13-10, 11:23 AM
just 1 bolt on pump. tucked down low between pump and head. takes about 30sec to remove it.

Pete315
03-13-10, 04:31 PM
thanks. could not believe pump held on with one bolt when I read it.

tateos
03-15-10, 04:30 PM
thanks. could not believe pump held on with one bolt when I read it.

Yep - disconnecting those lines and the one bolt and get it out of the heck out of your way

jimsbox
07-02-10, 05:04 AM
I am doing a Stud job on a engine on an engine stand. Can I use an impact wrench to remove the head bolts without damaging the block or heads?

stoveguyy
07-02-10, 11:35 AM
jimsbox, are you thinking using an impact gun will lessen the chances of block thread damage? i have heard of folks who say they had no aluminum stuck to the headbolts and assumed the block threads were ok. did they than thread new headbolts into the stock block? i wonder if a stud kit, like ARP has would work ok in this setup? since the clamping is done on top of the head with a nut now?

Submariner409
07-02-10, 12:15 PM
ARP does not make a stud kit for the Northstar. The studs and installation kit come from www.northstarperformance.com.

I would be leery of using an impact wrench to break free the Northstar head bolts - they use a thread sealer/locker compound so things will be tight if the bolt hole threads are not compromised. Even GM does not recommend simply replacing head bolts with new treated ones during top overhaul - they recommend inserts.

In the order of things, least desirable to best, it's Timeserts, Norm's Inserts, and Jake's studs.

jimsbox
07-02-10, 04:39 PM
Submariner,
I am going through this junkyard engine and am going to be installing Jakes stud kit. I am not particularly worried about damaging the factory threads in the block as they will be drilled out and retapped. I was more concerned about snapping one of the stretch bolts. If you still feel it may not be wise then I will go with the 1/2" breaker bar.

Thanks

Submariner409
07-02-10, 05:47 PM
Lol !!! I'm an iron block man, primarily. I seriously doubt that popping out the bolts with an impact would hurt anything - just that PPPPPP (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.) :rolleyes:

stoveguyy
07-03-10, 11:21 PM
the studs for a VW 4cyl inline motor will work on a stock unaltered block. maybe a new block? you can timesert the block and use these ARP studs. just a FYI

clutterking
12-01-12, 10:06 AM
I apologize for reviving this old thread but I think it's better than starting a new one. Were you able to successfully use studs on your engine while leaving it in your car? If I decide to do this project it'll be a few months from now when it gets a little warmer, I'm just trying to decide if this is something I might be able to do myself or if I should give up on the Caddy. Thanks for the help.

vincentm
12-01-12, 10:11 AM
The Northstar has to be removed for studs, there's no way to get to the rear with the engine in the car

Ranger
12-01-12, 12:32 PM
You will NEVER get the rear head over the studs with the engine in the car.

bigtone
12-01-12, 02:53 PM
I apologize for reviving this old thread but I think it's better than starting a new one. Were you able to successfully use studs on your engine while leaving it in your car? If I decide to do this project it'll be a few months from now when it gets a little warmer, I'm just trying to decide if this is something I might be able to do myself or if I should give up on the Caddy. Thanks for the help.

If you have decided to do it with the engine in the car, why not just use the Norm's inserts? I used them once and timeserts once, both with the engine in the car. There actually is plenty of room to drill and install inserts. I have never heard of a problem after installing Norm's, their track record is impeccable. I stick to my opinion that studs are overkill for a 15 year old car with 100k miles that will be used on the street for daily transportation.

walliss34
12-05-12, 04:11 PM
I agree Bigtone, I am installing Norms serts on 99 Seville with 90k on it. I already did my 99 Deville with Norms and they worked great. I hope to just clean up the heads real good and put them back on with new gaskets, Norms inserts and head bolts. I think it is going to be about 600 bucks for the parts. Not bad if all goes as planned. 600 buck car with another 600 in engine and 600 in brakes and water pump and other misc. things,,,less than $2000 to get a nice ride that was 45k new? I love these old caddies!

bigtone
12-05-12, 07:06 PM
We really like Caddies in my house. We have 3 Devilles and one newer DTS. My son has an 01 Deville, we did the headgaskets on it earlier this year with Norms. I used to have a 98 Deville, I did them with Timeserts about 4 years ago. From what I heard, the new owner still has no problems with it. I thought the timeserts were ok, and I really liked the rig they give you to drill, but the Norms are just so much beefier. I had a close call last summer where I thought the h/g was going in my 01 Deville, but luckily it turned out to be just the radiator, even though the block test showed positive. Lol

devill.dude
12-10-12, 08:27 AM
I believe the PS pump can stay, but you may want to remove it just to get it out of your way. Yeah - the bolts that are still good REALLY snap when they come loose, and you can very easily tell once you get to the bad ones.
All of my studs snapped when removed but I drilled and studded anyways. Was never an option not to!
I went with CarrollsCustomCadillacs stud kit. He shipped the very next day! USPS Priority.


jimsbox, are you thinking using an impact gun will lessen the chances of block thread damage? i have heard of folks who say they had no aluminum stuck to the headbolts and assumed the block threads were ok. did they than thread new headbolts into the stock block? i wonder if a stud kit, like ARP has would work ok in this setup? since the clamping is done on top of the head with a nut now?
I too had no alum on my threads, but almost all of the bolts had coolant residue and corrosion formation at the top of the threads. Some so bad that I had to use pliers to pull them up through the head! I studded every hole anyways.

Spin, any advise or wisdom is greatly appreciated. I'm guessing the studs just can't be tightened down until they bottom out? I really would love to read the instructions on the installation of the studs. Jake, maybe you could send me the instructions and your tips on pulling the engine out the top. Since the heads will be off soon, looks like it is not so much more work to pull engine out top if the studs can't be installed with the engine rocked forward.
If I want to remove power steering pump to make more room, do I have to pull the pulley off? looks like the bolts that secure pump to block are hidden behind the pump.
I pulled the whole subframe. I think it was easier than to try and pull the engine out the top. I've done many engine pulls, but the Northstar was the first one. I'm very glad I dropped it rather than pulled it.
The studs don't get tightened down. They go in at a certain depth and that's it. The torque of the top nut is what will hold everything in place.
As far as the power steering pump...There is one 1/2" bolt resting on the backside against the head(difficult to see). Remove that one bolt and the PS pump will come out in one piece. Those bolts behind the pulley will only remove the PS pump from the block bracket.

stoveguyy
12-31-12, 12:23 PM
my neighbor has 97 deville w/102k miles and bad headgaskets. is asking 1k or best offer. i can see it from my house. covered in snow. sure hope it has coolant in block? might just be water after overheating a few times.