: Sway bars- worth it?



colbachlaw
02-23-10, 11:19 PM
I love the handling of my 09' V, but sometimes it feels a little soft, even in the sport mode.

Anyone put any aftermarket sway bars on their V?

Any suggestions on swaybars?

Thanks,

Mike C

GM-4-LIFE
02-24-10, 12:21 AM
I was hoping Hotchkis would step up and offer a sway bar kit for the CTS-V.

SG

Titaniumseeker
02-24-10, 12:27 AM
It looks like D3 will be offering a kit (front/rear) but I have not heard of the availbility yet. It is on their website though.

SlvrBullIT
02-24-10, 01:26 AM
Next D3 will offer a Urethane bushing set too!!!!! *nudge* *nudge*

Gary Wells
02-24-10, 05:40 AM
The front sway bar looks like it might be pretty labor intensive & the rear not so much.

Tony407
02-24-10, 06:28 AM
I too have this same question. Anyone from D3 listening?

Tony

jimbo1320
02-24-10, 02:00 PM
I put Hotchkis on my 04 and omg, loved them. The car was just tighter and more responsive. I hope they make them avalible for the newer "V"'s though with magnetic ride not shure how they would react. Install was not bad as I remember. I did have access to a lift.
I might just call Hotchkis and see if they have anything in the works. They gave us forum pricing which was nice of them.

Razorecko
02-24-10, 03:33 PM
I bookmarked an article on my other pc where some top guy mentioned they reworked they sway bars on the coupe because the ones on the sedan weren't ideal and that even they could benefit from the coupe's sway bars....I think upgraded sway bars and some d3 springs and you'll have a serious track beast

Dr. Design
02-24-10, 04:02 PM
Hello,
Gary Wells hit it on the head. The fronts would be a very labor intensive to change out, rears would be a piece of cake. We have been looking at solutions to make install a bit easier with the new front bar. But the front is what is holding up release at this point... We have proto poly bushings on the drawing board, but nothing done yet.

But sways on these cars would be most beneficial if installed!

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Gary Wells
02-24-10, 04:16 PM
After I get some of my upgrades done, I might look into having D3 do a *rear sway bar* upgrade only, and try that for a while. Works great on 99.9% of the turbo *Buicks*, but the Caddy might be a different animal. Couldn't hurt though.

Razorecko
02-24-10, 07:01 PM
Hello,
Gary Wells hit it on the head. The fronts would be a very labor intensive to change out, rears would be a piece of cake. We have been looking at solutions to make install a bit easier with the new front bar. But the front is what is holding up release at this point... We have proto poly bushings on the drawing board, but nothing done yet.

But sways on these cars would be most beneficial if installed!

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

How intensive is it to replace the front bar ?

GMX322V S/C
02-24-10, 07:34 PM
After I get some of my upgrades done, I might look into having D3 do a *rear sway bar* upgrade only, and try that for a while. Works great on 99.9% of the turbo *Buicks*, but the Caddy might be a different animal. Couldn't hurt though.Gary, if you go to wider tires in the rear, a stiffer rear bar may help offset the induced understeer, but without wider tires, she's already pretty tail-happy under power as it is...or are you thinking about doing some showing off? :D

Gary Wells
02-24-10, 08:07 PM
How intensive is it to replace the front bar ?
When I looked at one of these cookie monsters up on the rack at D3 one day, it looked to me like the radiator cap could stay in place, but everything else in sight was coming off the front end of the car.
J/K, Razor, but it looked like a lot was going to come undone to get at the front sway bar. I just don't have that much pocket personality, nor patience, nor emotional stability. I'm sure you do.
James at D3 could probably come close on an estimate.

Razorecko
02-24-10, 08:16 PM
When I looked at one of these cookie monsters up on the rack at D3 one day, it looked to me like the radiator cap could stay in place, but everything else in sight was coming off the front end of the car.
J/K, Razor, but it looked like a lot was going to come undone to get at the front sway bar. I just don't have that much pocket personality, nor patience, nor emotional stability. I'm sure you do.
James at D3 could probably come close on an estimate.

My thought was that this was something that would be ideal to do if you're also doing a crank pulley or a heat exchanger.

Gary Wells
02-24-10, 08:18 PM
Gary, if you go to wider tires in the rear, a stiffer rear bar may help offset the induced understeer, but without wider tires, she's already pretty tail-happy under power as it is...or are you thinking about doing some showing off? :D
I would only go wider tires in the rear if I could get a set of stock rims widened, and that sounds exceptionally pricey. At my age I just wanna look kool, I don't really have to be kool.
Even in a moderate corner, I noticed that the rear could probably utilize a bigger rear sway bar to straighten out some of the lean.

colbachlaw
02-24-10, 08:38 PM
I am having a 9.5 crank pulley put in pretty soon (it has been sitting in my garage for too long).

Anyone want to take a guess at how much more labor it would be to get the front bar on?

I gave up wrenching years ago, so I have yet to even look at the underside of my car.

Thanks,

Mike C

SlvrBullIT
02-25-10, 08:18 AM
The front sway bar is above the engine carriage so it'll be a SOB to replace.

Luna.
02-25-10, 02:54 PM
I was hoping Hotchkis would step up and offer a sway bar kit for the CTS-V.

SG

Yeah, or D3. I'm glad this thread came up, for I have it on my '05 and really like it. I'm one of these guys that want the car as friggin stiff as possible.


Gary, if you go to wider tires in the rear, a stiffer rear bar may help offset the induced understeer, but without wider tires, she's already pretty tail-happy under power as it is...or are you thinking about doing some showing off? :D

Yeah, this is the same idea that we had for the first generation Vs.


I would only go wider tires in the rear if I could get a set of stock rims widened, and that sounds exceptionally pricey. At my age I just wanna look kool, I don't really have to be kool.
Even in a moderate corner, I noticed that the rear could probably utilize a bigger rear sway bar to straighten out some of the lean.

:histeric: Gary, you're cool regardless. :p

Exceptionally pricey though? :hmm: You could probably do it for ~$600. Going from an LSA to an LS9 would be exceptionally pricey, not this. :duck::D

Gary Wells
02-25-10, 06:35 PM
Yeah, or D3. I'm glad this thread came up, for I have it on my '05 and really like it. I'm one of these guys that want the car as friggin stiff as possible.



Yeah, this is the same idea that we had for the first generation Vs.



:histeric: Gary, you're cool regardless. :p

Exceptionally pricey though? :hmm: You could probably do it for ~$600. Going from an LSA to an LS9 would be exceptionally pricey, not this. :duck::D


I am sure that D3 is currently working on retailing and / or marketing front & rear sway bars. Or at least I hope so.
If I have to spend my money anywhere, I would just as soon it be D3 as they specialize solely in work & products for the Cad, and they are already a supporting supplier of this site.
The more that I think about looking into a slightly larger rear bar and leaving the front alone, the more that I think that the idea might be worth pursuing.
As far as looking kool, somebody please kick me in the nutz and roll me in the curb if I ever even consider saying anything like that again.
What was I thinking.
I think that I saw a set of front & rear sway bars in D3 about 3 weeks ago, so I am sure that they are up to something in that regards.

ELES6CTS
09-02-10, 09:58 PM
Anyone from D3 have any updates on the sways?

Dr. Design
09-02-10, 10:36 PM
Its funny that you ask about this. We are doing our final install and fitment next week. Production will shortly have the green light!

Look for details VERY SOON!

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Anyone from D3 have any updates on the sways?

thebigjimsho
09-03-10, 11:30 AM
Guys, sway bars are already in the GM parts bin. The coupe has different sized bars and using those may get you the handling you desire. Now, if you just want bars to say you spent more money and that they're bigger, have at it...

Dr. Design
09-03-10, 01:02 PM
Actually, they are the exact same for the Coupe and the Sedan. We have already verified, and there is NO DIFFERENCE between the two applications. You can quickly research this by looking up the part numbers for each.

But I will post those for your records:
Coupe V 15948223 front
coupe v 25819249 rear
sedan v 15948223 front
sedan v 25819249 rear

Just for sake of argument we double checked the 09-11 models and they are all still the same.

So with that being said, our sway bar upgrade will still be considered a major upgraded that is really needed for the Sedan and the Coupe V. We will have multiple adjustments on the front and rear bars. The best news about all of this is that they will work in conjunction with our rear differential cooler. This is a much needed upgrade. Even when we install coilovers on the v2 with chassis bracing you can feel the big fella lean over when pushed in turns. These massive bars will keep the vehicle flat and allow for better rotation and pivot through the turns.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



Guys, sway bars are already in the GM parts bin. The coupe has different sized bars and using those may get you the handling you desire. Now, if you just want bars to say you spent more money and that they're bigger, have at it...

Gary Wells
09-03-10, 01:10 PM
James:
Will the D3 rear sway bar be of a conventional design?
I.E., will it be basically the same dimensions as the original other than thickness?
Will this mount off of rod ends and links?

Dr. Design
09-03-10, 01:46 PM
We looked at a few different designs initially. But we ultimately decided to go with a conventional bar design with thicker wall material and larger diameter. It will mount off the factory locations and end links. We also determined that the OE end links are very strong and will serve no benefit to being changed out at this time.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



James:
Will the D3 rear sway bar be of a conventional design?
I.E., will it be basically the same dimensions as the original other than thickness?
Will this mount off of rod ends and links?

4gear70
09-03-10, 03:30 PM
We looked at a few different designs initially. But we ultimately decided to go with a conventional bar design with thicker wall material and larger diameter. It will mount off the factory locations and end links. We also determined that the OE end links are very strong and will serve no benefit to being changed out at this time.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Sounds great!! Looking forward to seeing these.

Gary Wells
09-03-10, 03:59 PM
We looked at a few different designs initially. But we ultimately decided to go with a conventional bar design with thicker wall material and larger diameter. It will mount off the factory locations and end links. We also determined that the OE end links are very strong and will serve no benefit to being changed out at this time.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

James:
Thanks for the response. I would like to see this and get a price on it and installation.

thebigjimsho
09-06-10, 04:48 PM
If you want flatter cornering, just hit the sport button. I'm not sure the car needs sway bars. If anything, maybe a smaller front bar to reduce understeer.

RemoWilliams
09-06-10, 07:29 PM
If you want flatter cornering, just hit the sport button. I'm not sure the car needs sway bars. If anything, maybe a smaller front bar to reduce understeer.

???????????????, sorry but none of that made any sense to me. The car leans bad even in sport mode. A smaller front bar would compound the issue.

The larger sways would be great for the turns, but the question is how bad will it affect the ride? I bet it would be nasty for pot holes.

Gary Wells
09-06-10, 07:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that a larger rear sway bar will help flatten the car somewhat in the corners, especially in the sweepers. The front I will leave alone.

Mike 09 V
09-07-10, 11:24 AM
One of the reasons I bought my car was the outstanding handling. After all, Heinricy took it around the Nurburgring faster than any other production sedan in the world. I'm pretty sure it was stock and on OEM tires. So while you might make the car stiffer with new expensive parts, will it be better? I don't think so. Chances are it will be worse. The factory engineers likely tried many variations of sway bars when they designed this car. What will it do to the MRC with the chassis responding differently then what is programmed in the computer? How about the safety in the Stabilitrac? Or anti-lock brakes? Unless you are an automotive engineer, specializing in handling I would stay away from this kind of stuff. .02
Mike

Dr. Design
09-07-10, 04:21 PM
Hello,
Well this is why we test and develop. If it was as easy as just throwing on some larger diameter bars and calling it good more companies would be developing products for this application. Since these suspension products are being developed through a regular tracked V we will be able to measure the performance gains of such products. The drivers feedback will be critical as we develop this program. We understand the importance of making sure everything is integrated and balanced with the MRC system. Initial testing has already proved much better balance through cornering and substantially reduced body roll allowing the vehicle to stay flat through the turns.

Albeit Cadillac has raised the bar compared to the outgoing CTS-V, but it just makes the challenge that much better in trying to increase on the performance of the CTS-V. We wouldn't waste our time developing a product if it didn't perform better than factory...

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Tony407
09-07-10, 04:41 PM
Hello,
Well this is why we test and develop. If it was as easy as just throwing on some larger diameter bars and calling it good more companies would be developing products for this application. Since these suspension products are being developed through a regular tracked V we will be able to measure the performance gains of such products. The drivers feedback will be critical as we develop this program. We understand the importance of making sure everything is integrated and balanced with the MRC system. Initial testing has already proved much better balance through cornering and substantially reduced body roll allowing the vehicle to stay flat through the turns.

Albeit Cadillac has raised the bar compared to the outgoing CTS-V, but it just makes the challenge that much better in trying to increase on the performance of the CTS-V. We wouldn't waste our time developing a product if it didn't perform better than factory...

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Your claims may be valid, but if they mirror my less-than-pleased experience with your lowering springs, I am very skeptical. :thehand:

Tony

Dr. Design
09-07-10, 04:44 PM
Hello Tony,
Unfortunately handling and ride quality can be very subjective. This is not a market where we can get 100% satisfaction, although we do strive for that, it is very difficult to actually get given how people drive their vehicles differently. Also the given loads the vehicle is subjected to can play a large effect on how ones vehicle handles.

The sway bars performance gains are valid and measurable. We will be sure to post results when available.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Your claims may be valid, but if they mirror my less-than-pleased experience with your lowering springs, I am very skeptical. :thehand:

Tony

Tony407
09-07-10, 04:48 PM
One of the reasons I bought my car was the outstanding handling. After all, Heinricy took it around the Nurburgring faster than any other production sedan in the world. I'm pretty sure it was stock and on OEM tires. So while you might make the car stiffer with new expensive parts, will it be better? I don't think so. Chances are it will be worse. The factory engineers likely tried many variations of sway bars when they designed this car. What will it do to the MRC with the chassis responding differently then what is programmed in the computer? How about the safety in the Stabilitrac? Or anti-lock brakes? Unless you are an automotive engineer, specializing in handling I would stay away from this kind of stuff. .02
Mike

You are echoing the EXACT sentiments of those who originally were skeptical of lowering our cars with the D3 springs. At least in my case, (and evidently a few others) your level of caution concerning messing with the MRC was well warranted. Adding lowering springs to my V turned out to be a big mistake. I am wondering if this will be the case with sway bars. At least with the rear bar, it should be an easy DIY install so if you don't like it, it won't cost an arm and a leg to install/uninstall like the springs did.

Tony

Tony407
09-07-10, 05:23 PM
Hello Tony,
Unfortunately handling and ride quality can be very subjective. This is not a market where we can get 100% satisfaction, although we do strive for that, it is very difficult to actually get given how people drive their vehicles differently. Also the given loads the vehicle is subjected to can play a large effect on how ones vehicle handles.

The sway bars performance gains are valid and measurable. We will be sure to post results when available.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

I agree with you that ride quality is mostly subjective, but handling is mostly objective and it can be measured scientifically. In terms of your lowering springs I do not believe you published any sort of objective tests regarding their effectiveness on the track, whether that be in lap times, slalom speeds, etc. If you want to continue doing business with me, you will most certainly have to provide me some sort of adequate evidence that your performance products somehow do what they say they will do. I myself suspect that your lowering springs would have proven to have reduced handling performance had you chosen to do before and after tests. This is based on my experience both on a high-speed track and an autocross course both before and after spring install. Although I do not have the numbers to back it up, my educated guess is that the lowering springs were a step backward in terms of performance, not a step forward as you advertised them.

I look forward to hearing your test results regarding the sway bars. I don't see any reason why I wouldn't be interested in them if you, as mentioned above, can provide evidence that they enhance performance. As far as ride quality, I'll accept full responsibility for that just like I did with your springs.

Tony

thebigjimsho
09-08-10, 05:15 PM
???????????????, sorry but none of that made any sense to me. The car leans bad even in sport mode. A smaller front bar would compound the issue.

The larger sways would be great for the turns, but the question is how bad will it affect the ride? I bet it would be nasty for pot holes.
What is lean bad? I watched a fleet of stock Vs attack a slalom at Monticello with Tour and then Sport mode. Lean was indeed reduced. That was the whole point of the exercise.

People love to think in absolutes, especially when it comes to handling. A smaller front bar has the ability to reduce understeer. Added lean would be miniscule. The ability to rotate would be far more beneficial.

Also, if you just want to go crazy and stiffen the suspension, you should also look into more aggressive rubber. It would be like having a football player all braced up running in untied sneakers. Whatever benefit you get in stiffening suspension pieces could all be lost with an unchanged contact patch.


All you guys can throw all the stiffer bars you want, I'll bet it won't let you pull away from me at the track...

thebigjimsho
09-08-10, 05:19 PM
One of the reasons I bought my car was the outstanding handling. After all, Heinricy took it around the Nurburgring faster than any other production sedan in the world. I'm pretty sure it was stock and on OEM tires. So while you might make the car stiffer with new expensive parts, will it be better? I don't think so. Chances are it will be worse. The factory engineers likely tried many variations of sway bars when they designed this car. What will it do to the MRC with the chassis responding differently then what is programmed in the computer? How about the safety in the Stabilitrac? Or anti-lock brakes? Unless you are an automotive engineer, specializing in handling I would stay away from this kind of stuff. .02
Mike
While I don't think people need to be as cautious as you imply they should be in your post, I largely agree with you.


If anyone wants to get a little more in-depth, talk to AAIIIC over in the V1 forum. He got some great feedback from Andy Pilgrim after Andy got to drive his car at Summit Point...

Tony407
09-08-10, 06:08 PM
All you guys can throw all the stiffer bars you want, I'll bet it won't let you pull away from me at the track...

And this is the question, isn't it? After my experience with lowering springs and the V's MRC I would be very skeptical of unjustified claims of "improved handling" just by the very mention of aftermarket sway bars. For me the proof will be in the pudding. Prove to me that the sway bar(s) will increase lap times or some other parameter of interest and then I will consider it. Until then, I'm with you, Jim.

And like others have said, the V2 may lean or [insert whatever you want here] but it managed to break a world record at the Ring. 'Nuff said.

Tony

blkCTSv
09-11-10, 08:32 PM
Just installed the new "massive" D3 sways (front and rear) on my '10 V along with their new D3 competition springs. All I can say is WOW!!!! I expected a "crazy" stiff ride on the 710 freeway in LA, but rather I felt like I was driving a car that was better balanced and lighter (go figure) and really didn't sacrifice the daily driver ride. The stance is slightly higher in the rear compared to the other D3 springs, but real nice to me. I'll need to get on the track to really give you feedback on handling (next weekend). I have ran all of the SoCal tracks and have good data on the other D3 springs set-up. I'll be at Spring Mountain in Nevada next weekend, then hoping to get back to Big Willow Springs the following week. Can't wait!!!

Tony407
09-13-10, 03:21 AM
Just installed the new "massive" D3 sways (front and rear) on my '10 V along with their new D3 competition springs. All I can say is WOW!!!! I expected a "crazy" stiff ride on the 710 freeway in LA, but rather I felt like I was driving a car that was better balanced and lighter (go figure) and really didn't sacrifice the daily driver ride. The stance is slightly higher in the rear compared to the other D3 springs, but real nice to me. I'll need to get on the track to really give you feedback on handling (next weekend). I have ran all of the SoCal tracks and have good data on the other D3 springs set-up. I'll be at Spring Mountain in Nevada next weekend, then hoping to get back to Big Willow Springs the following week. Can't wait!!!

Great to hear about the sway bars!

What's this about "competition springs"? This is the first I've ever heard about them. What's different about them compared to the ones they've been selling all this time?

Tony

Dr. Design
09-13-10, 05:35 PM
We will be releasing more information about that shortly.

As for the performance of the bars. It is a substantial increase in how the vehicle is allowed to rotate. The car stays MUCH flatter through turns. In theory decreasing the diameter would allow for more rotation of the rear. But the body sway would be almost unbearable and will quickly body roll its way right past the point of diminishing returns. Given the vehicles mass and weight, the larger stiffer bars are the way to go!

When we did our testing with Road & Track Magazine on the CTS platform, the one thing that was REALLY missing was sway bars! The car cornered great, but the car would try to roll over at times. This is a much needed product and has been a long time in the making.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Great to hear about the sway bars!

What's this about "competition springs"? This is the first I've ever heard about them. What's different about them compared to the ones they've been selling all this time?

Tony

1-2-N-V
09-13-10, 05:55 PM
Well i would certainly like to hear about those also. Some real tests would be the order. And some additional WOW comments would be great... Maybe from a past customer D3 who have placed their unbiased comments of the D3 springs in earlier posts and not from a new guy on the block. not saying anything but people are paid to promote if you get me.

Id probably be a guinea pig if i wasn't spending all my friggen' money on my house. Make the wifey happy first then i can play.;)

Ross Racing
09-13-10, 06:25 PM
Very interested in this topic and future testing. Our cars have alot of toys being released for them lately and in the future.

Go D3 and GO Chargers on Monday night football!

thebigjimsho
09-14-10, 10:16 AM
Very interested in this topic and future testing. Our cars have alot of toys being released for them lately and in the future.

Go D3 and GO Chargers on Monday night football!
Well, hopefully you don't go 0 for 2...

thebigjimsho
09-14-10, 10:19 AM
We will be releasing more information about that shortly.

As for the performance of the bars. It is a substantial increase in how the vehicle is allowed to rotate. The car stays MUCH flatter through turns. In theory decreasing the diameter would allow for more rotation of the rear. But the body sway would be almost unbearable and will quickly body roll its way right past the point of diminishing returns. Given the vehicles mass and weight, the larger stiffer bars are the way to go!

When we did our testing with Road & Track Magazine on the CTS platform, the one thing that was REALLY missing was sway bars! The car cornered great, but the car would try to roll over at times. This is a much needed product and has been a long time in the making.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 CadillacWell, the V certainly isn't dangerous to drive right now and its time at the 'Ring proves that. So why not just offer a larger rear bar and get that neutrality? Or are we going to have to buy 2 bars??