: Bone Stock Dyno Test at Borla, 440RWHP/427RWTQ with 900 miles on the clock...



GM-4-LIFE
02-20-10, 11:08 AM
After about 50 miles or so of 85-100+ MPH speeds on the 101 fwy from Sherman Oaks, CA to Oxnard, CA, I got to Borla Performance to drop off my car and when I got there, they strapped my 2010 CTS-V on their dyno to get a baseline dyno number. With 900 miles on the odometer, my V put down 440RWHP and 427 RWTQ.

Being that my car is an auto, I calculated a 20% drivetrain loss which is about right as far as factory rated power. If the car was a bit cooler, I am sure the numbers would have been a bit higher as it may have already had a good amount of heatsoak present.

The conditions at Borla are pretty much perfect. Right at sea level as they are located about a mile away from the California coastline. It was about 60-63 degrees outside which was nice and cool, but the weird thing is that they don't run an intake fan in front of the car during dyno runs which I am used to seeing at dyno facilities, so I was thinking the numbers are pretty good considering it was just sitting on the dyno without any air blowing towards the front.

What do you guys think?

SG

Gary Wells
02-20-10, 11:46 AM
I am also used to seeing the fan / fans blowing on the front of the car during and in between dyno runs but now that you brought it up, how beneficial are the fan / fans on between a single run to the normal 3 run base line runs. I'm thinking that the fan is most beneficial for heat soak which would not be a problem for a single dyno blast, and maybe not 2 very quick runs in quick succession, but on 3 runs at average no cool down time intervals might do the most good.
What type of dyno was used, I assume only 91 octane crap Kali fuel, and was that the best of 2, 3, or a single run / pull?

cbloveday
02-20-10, 01:27 PM
Make sure you recreate the dyno baseline conditions for the Borla setup dyno.

Jpjr
02-20-10, 01:44 PM
Yeah the fans are useful for tuning when doing multiple pulls but one or two seems ok.

Blown cars respond very well to any mod that opens up airflow and reduces backpressure, so hopefully we should see some good gains with the Borla.

Actually, the only mod I plan on doing to my V is a borla cat-back exhaust. After tens of thousands spent on modding cars over the years, there is something mildly addictive about a stock daily driver that drives how it was meant to drive and is warranty friendly. But I am really looking forward to the T-304 stainless...

GM-4-LIFE
02-20-10, 04:34 PM
Gary Wells,

91 Chevron and Borla's dyno is a Dynojet 248 inground unit. Best pull was the first one. After that, it heatsoaked so much and started losing more and more power.

cbloveday,

It's difficult to re-create the same dyno conditions unless all weather conditions are identical. It would have been nice to dyno before bone stock, swap the exhaust and then re-dyno within the same hour. That would be been the best scenario. We will see how the car does with the new exhaust. I am sure the weather conditions will be about the same as our 10 day weather forecast shows it to be pretty consistent all week long.

After looking closely at the stock exhaust system, the Borla engineers were recommending doing a full bolt-on section after the first set of cats and getting rid of the rear cats for the easiest exhaust swap and the best power gains. I don't know if they are going to do that, but I will know when I speak with them later on this week!

Do anyone of you know if my dyno numbers are inline with other bone stock CTS-Vs that were tested? That was one question that I really curious about.

Thanks!

SG

cbloveday
02-20-10, 04:43 PM
SG, yes those numbers are in line. I've seen 440-500. Depends on dyno and whether car is heat soaked and the car. What I am interested in is if you got your temps, close to where the baseline was and then dyno to get an idea of what the borla gain is rwhp. subscribed....

My concern is you dyno the car when it has been cool sitting around and you ell us the borla gets you 25-30 rwhp or something like that when 10-20 might be less heat soak from when the baseline dyno was done.

Gary Wells
02-20-10, 04:53 PM
Bone stock “Kali only” RWHP & RWTQ #’s & Owners:

RWHP RWTQ Trans Locale Owner Date

429 430 auto Kali Gary Wells 09-26-09 Dynojet
440 427 auto Kali CTS-V TWIN 02-19-10 Dynojet248
442 442 auto Kali KAT McRAT 07-20-09 Dynojet
457 459 auto Flor Low ET 10-07-09 Dynojetpack
498 515 auto Kali Gary Wells 10-16-09 Dynapack
502 490 stick Tex TrevorD 12-25-09 Dynojet248
436 432 auto ???? Tagzo 12-17-09 Dynojet

Sorry about the formatting
Italics are non-Kali dyno runs
Anymore contributors for bone stock dyno run info, I've forgotten the location of most psots

Jpjr
02-26-10, 05:58 AM
Any update on the exhaust?

Jutskin
02-26-10, 08:16 AM
Congrats on the results, incredible for a luxury sedan.

With LS2's in vettes with strictly exhaust changes (not headers) horsepower gains were minimal. 5 to 10 hp. Stock exhaust moved enough air (cfm) to keep up with supply. I believe the corvette forum would agree...do a search there. The extra noise is not what I want but for enough incremental HP I will buy my wife ear plugs.
Then again unblown LS2's dont make 556bhp. Would like to get some before and after results with the same dyno operator under the same conditions. That would be way cool.

Vrocks
02-26-10, 09:03 AM
I think your numbers are good. When I had my V dyoned it idled for a while before the first pull, and the temp went up to 210. We let it sit until it was around 160 for the second run (it has a 160 Tstat but a stock tune so the fans don't kick on early - only highway running cools it down).

The difference in power was substantial (car had the 9" pulley, stock tune). 467whp on the 1st pull and 501whp on the second run. Torque was up big time on the second run as well @ 530.

musclesbmf
02-26-10, 09:32 AM
What people seem to forget is dyno's are just tuning tools. Every dyno is calibrated different and there are different conditions as mentioned above. Just use that as a base, and as you modify, keep track of the numbers. To get a true idea of HP, go to the track and get your MPH at the 1/4 mile.

Mark

Razorecko
02-26-10, 10:33 AM
also force injected cars are enormously impacted by free'd up airflow. ALOT more than na blocks.

GM-4-LIFE
02-26-10, 12:15 PM
Just got a call from Chris at Borla. They need to keep my car until next Friday. Their tube bender is down for repairs and it set them back 2 additional days.

What Borla is having a tough time with is that there are two rear cats AFTER the main flange up front. They feel that Cadillac owners won't want to alter their factory exhaust or mess with the emission standards by removing the rear cats in order to get a more aggressive exhaust note and for additional HP/TQ gains.

I would have no problem getting rid of the rear cats in favor of a true cat-back exhaust that would give my V more power and a better deeper V8 tone. Additionally, I would love to get rid of the flat pipe on the left side of the exhaust and all the factory piping in place of nice smooth Borla bends.

This is primarily why Corsa only has an axle back system. Nobody is exactly sure what to do about the rear cats. There aren't any 02 sensors before or after the rear cats, so the car won't throw any codes. They are just there ensure an ultra low emission vehicle designation. The front cats should be enough to do the job though.

What do you guys think? Borla said no matter what they decide on going with as their CTS-V system, they will build me a custom exhaust however I want. I just wanted to take an unofficial poll as to how many of you are like me and would get rid of the rear cats. They can always be welded back in place is how I feel.

SG

Gary Wells
02-26-10, 12:58 PM
SG:
Might want to check about the rear cats as I have seen posted that their function is to let the computer know if the primary cats fired off in time. Otherwise on a header system with both front & rear cats and the sensor being too far away from the primary cats, the tuners have to tune out that sensor so to avoid a ses. This is primarily what I have seen posted, not saying that it is true or not, but I believe that it is.,

Jpjr
02-26-10, 01:17 PM
I personally want an exhaust that will pass CA emissions without me having to worry at all. If they can accomplish this without the rear cats then I say great. But I think if they were unsure they would need to smog a car first to confirm before they market that it will pass.

I guess what I am saying is that I want an exhaust that will pass emissions. There are a lot of mid-pipes out there that use hi-flow cats that still work but give you more flow and a better exhaust note, if that is an option for them.

GM-4-LIFE
02-26-10, 01:46 PM
SG:
Might want to check about the rear cats as I have seen posted that their function is to let the computer know if the primary cats fired off in time. Otherwise on a header system with both front & rear cats and the sensor being too far away from the primary cats, the tuners have to tune out that sensor so to avoid a ses. This is primarily what I have seen posted, not saying that it is true or not, but I believe that it is.,

Gary,

I closely inspected the full exhaust system and if what you are saying is true, how would the computer be able to communicate what the rear cats are doing without any 02 sensors in front or behind the rear cats? If there were 02 sensors anywhere near the front or rear of the rear cats, I would say sure. The computer can't wirelessly detect any changes in emissions.

SG

Gary Wells
02-26-10, 03:20 PM
Gary,

I closely inspected the full exhaust system and if what you are saying is true, how would the computer be able to communicate what the rear cats are doing without any 02 sensors in front or behind the rear cats? If there were 02 sensors anywhere near the front or rear of the rear cats, I would say sure. The computer can't wirelessly detect any changes in emissions.

SG

SG:
Oops, my bad. I confused apples and oranges.

GM-4-LIFE
02-26-10, 03:28 PM
SG:
Oops, my bad. I confused apples and oranges.

No biggie!

I know the subject is kind of touchy because of emission standards and all, but Borla can easily slap an off-road use label on the product and call it a day. We can get rid of the rear cats, get the power and sound we want while realistically staying emission compliant as long as the front cats are still in place. The front cats are bigger and do most of the work anyways.

SG

Q8 6.2
02-26-10, 04:56 PM
i think Borla can make two systems for the V a sport and touring.. the sport would be the full catback and the touring is the over the axle...

GM-4-LIFE
02-26-10, 05:57 PM
i think Borla can make two systems for the V a sport and touring.. the sport would be the full catback and the touring is the over the axle...

That is a great idea! I will forward your comments to my contact at Borla. It would make sense to do it the way you outlined.

SG

Gary Wells
02-26-10, 07:00 PM
No biggie!

I know the subject is kind of touchy because of emission standards and all, but Borla can easily slap an off-road use label on the product and call it a day. We can get rid of the rear cats, get the power and sound we want while realistically staying emission compliant as long as the front cats are still in place. The front cats are bigger and do most of the work anyways.

SG

OK, sorry, oops, my bad, I was at work and did that in a hurry. Our computers are bird dogged at work, stroke by stroke, and saved for future reference. From what I remember of all or most of the posts threads talking about this subject:
One tuner a while back said that you can run headers without a tune. The balance of or the majority of the remaining tuners on here have stated that you almost always have to do a tune to keep the SES light from coming on. 1 or several of the tuners have stated that a sensor somewhere, maybe behind the primary cats is too far away to pick up the signal of the cats firing off in a pre-set time limit and therefore the light will come on. One of the tuners or HP shops on the right coast a while back moved the sensor(s) closer to the cats to eliminate the light coming on. There have been several posts / threads where customers have been told they do not need a tune for headers only to have to head to a tuner in a few days.
So now coming back to me, it has / had no bearing on the rear cats.
Is this more plausible? James at D3, Mark (PSRmark), Jesse Bubb (wait4me) , Vette Doctors, IPSBrandon, might be able to chime in and relate their knowledge / experience. HTH
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused, or still be causing.

GMX322V S/C
02-26-10, 07:13 PM
The front cats are "close-coupled"--their job is to light up quickly to minimize cold-start emissions. The rear cats are actually the primary cats. I've heard my car with and without the primary cats going into Corsa Touring mufflers. Without the cats, it sounded similar to a Kooks system (2 cats) with the Tourings --too loud, IMO, for this car (D3 posted a video for me in this forum). With the cats, it sounds just right, again, IMO.

GM-4-LIFE
02-26-10, 07:27 PM
So I guess the question is whether or not the SES light will come on when you remove the rear cats without a tune. I planned on getting my car dyno tuned after the Borla exhaust anyway by a local Vette tuner. I am sure the car will really wake up with a quality tune and the Borla exhaust if I can run the car without the rear cats.

SG

GMX322V S/C
02-26-10, 07:32 PM
I believe the sensors are located before and after the close-coupled cats. I had assumed that the harness extensions that come with the AR and Kooks setups simply extended them so they could be before and after the 2 cats they supply with their systems. The rear set probably needs to be tuned out when there are no cats at all...

Cub Cadet
02-26-10, 07:42 PM
I would love to just get rid of the converters and have nice mandrel bent piping. I don't have emissions checks here, so i can run without that junk.

GMX322V S/C
02-26-10, 07:47 PM
^^^^
Sounds like a catless header system would be your cup o' tea. Kooks and AR both offer them...

Cub Cadet
02-26-10, 08:49 PM
I really didn't want to do long tubes... I just want get the converters removed from the car. I did not want to cut them out and weld pipe in place... thought maybe somebody would have created some piping now that goes between stock manifolds and inlet to the exhaust to remove converters.

GMX322V S/C
02-26-10, 09:27 PM
Wait4Me's exhaust eliminates the primary cats and can be cut to bolt on to the stock mufflers. Not sure about the close-coupled cats though.

clubho
02-26-10, 09:37 PM
So I guess the question is whether or not the SES light will come on when you remove the rear cats without a tune. I planned on getting my car dyno tuned after the Borla exhaust anyway by a local Vette tuner. I am sure the car will really wake up with a quality tune and the Borla exhaust if I can run the car without the rear cats.

SG

in the back you will notice there is an x-pipe. I had my exhaust cut off right behind the stock x-pipe and ran new 3" pipe out the back. I love it but then again I have had exhaust on every car I've ever owned going back to my first ever 1978 Buick Regal 5.0 v6. yes i know pos but come on I was 18. Plus my other cars and motorcycles are loud so maybe at 35 I am already deaf. it will give you a sweet little backfire on decompression breaking at 2,000 rpm every time but if you are like me and shift around 6,000 you'll never hear it :). Plus if you not on it and have client in the car you can't really tell but when you get on it hard it finally sounds like it should. I tried the corsa...weak...i tried some other brand...and tried some racing stock flowmasters as I have thouse on my '67 442...they all basically sound just like stock. If you want something real go my route...if you really want something wild go with the WFM (wait for me) system. 3" all the way back.

Tony407
02-26-10, 11:04 PM
I personally want an exhaust that will pass CA emissions without me having to worry at all. If they can accomplish this without the rear cats then I say great. But I think if they were unsure they would need to smog a car first to confirm before they market that it will pass.

I guess what I am saying is that I want an exhaust that will pass emissions. There are a lot of mid-pipes out there that use hi-flow cats that still work but give you more flow and a better exhaust note, if that is an option for them.

I agree completely. They smog test here in Oregon too. I would love to get rid of the rear cats, but only if my car will pass inspection.

Tony

Razorecko
02-26-10, 11:09 PM
Hey GMX i noticed you blacked out your grill, what paint did you have it done in ? ie, flat/oem black

GMX322V S/C
02-27-10, 12:12 AM
^^^
The mesh is a matte black, same as the door window surrounds, while the grille surrounds and emblem are semi-gloss, same as the side-view mirror bases/windshield wipers.

BTW, back when you revealed your black chromed wheels, I also had a quote from CalChrome, but I just couldn't make it work in my head like you did. Now that I'm blacked out it works better for me, so I'm going to have the wheels done in a couple of weeks. Although CalChrome's in my back yard, D3 turned me on to the Goodrich PermaStar Chrome process; I liked what I saw, so I'm gonna give them a shot.

Razorecko
04-02-10, 09:53 PM
So whats going on with the borla exhaust ?

GM-4-LIFE
04-03-10, 12:56 AM
So whats going on with the borla exhaust ?

It is in the works as we speak. It should be out within the next 4-6 weeks. Borla recently made some tweaks to the exhaust to cut down the interior resonance. The system I have on my V is perfect.

You guys will be highly impressed and will love the sound.

Shawn

Jpjr
04-03-10, 12:40 PM
It is in the works as we speak. It should be out within the next 4-6 weeks. Borla recently made some tweaks to the exhaust to cut down the interior resonance. The system I have on my V is perfect.

You guys will be highly impressed and will love the sound.

Shawn

I know I sound like a broken record, but will someone be sniff testing the kit to see if it will pass?

Razorecko
04-03-10, 04:13 PM
It is in the works as we speak. It should be out within the next 4-6 weeks. Borla recently made some tweaks to the exhaust to cut down the interior resonance. The system I have on my V is perfect.

You guys will be highly impressed and will love the sound.

Shawn

So these twekas to cut down the resonance, they applied these tweaks to the prototype you're running right now ? I can't wait for this sucker to come out :D

dvandentop
04-11-10, 11:56 PM
hear any more from borla on this?

GM-4-LIFE
04-12-10, 12:15 AM
Jpjr,

I will see if I can get down to a smog test station to see if the exhaust without the rear cats will pass CA smog.

Razorecko,

YES, that is correct! Borla made some nice tweaks on the V exhaust so the interior resonance is VERY minimal. Actually, it isn't really resonance, but more the actual exhaust note that you WANT to hear inside the car. It sounds awesome! Borla actually changed out the mufflers that were on the car for oval shape mufflers instead of the smaller cans they intended on initially using.

Borla is still on schedule to release this cat-back exhaust within the next 4-6 weeks or so. Borla is working on a lot of other projects, but the CTS-V exhaust is in line for production.

I will post up a new thread when Borla has them ready to ship along with the special forum member pricing.

Thanks!

Shawn

Razorecko
04-12-10, 09:43 AM
woohoo, we got to hear another youtube video of your V with the new "updated" mufflers !

GM-4-LIFE
04-12-10, 01:24 PM
woohoo, we got to hear another youtube video of your V with the new "updated" mufflers !

I will see if I can get a new youtube video posted up as soon as our weather clears up.

Mike 09 V
04-12-10, 05:36 PM
Just a little reality check here: GM wouldn't have spent the money putting a second set of cats on the car if it wasn't necessary for emissions. Here in Maricopa county, we have to smog check the cars, and the test stations plug sniffers into the pipes. They even take a smear of the soot in the pipes to look for lead and make you change your pipes and cats if they get a positive result before you can get a plate. Just sayin'.

GM-4-LIFE
04-12-10, 08:32 PM
Just a little reality check here: GM wouldn't have spent the money putting a second set of cats on the car if it wasn't necessary for emissions. Here in Maricopa county, we have to smog check the cars, and the test stations plug sniffers into the pipes. They even take a smear of the soot in the pipes to look for lead and make you change your pipes and cats if they get a positive result before you can get a plate. Just sayin'.

Wow, that is some gestapo type crap. Here in Cali, they don't do anything near that for inspections. They just put a sniffer in one pipe and test it on a dyno at 25 MPH. Easy. You would think Cali would have the strictest emissions testing in the nation, but it is pretty easy to pass smog here.

I am sure the front cats do all the work as the front cats have 02 sensors before and after the front cats. The rears do not have any 02 sensors before or after the cats, so it seems pointless. My car doesn't smell whether the car is cold or warm. I don't think there is a real point for the rear cats. I think GM wanted the car to meet Ultra Low Emission Standards. I can tell you that the car picked up some good power without the rear cats. All you really need are the front cats.

I just installed the D3 intake today and I will have the car dyno tuned soon to get as much power as I can without going to deep in mods.

Jpjr
04-13-10, 09:56 AM
Just a little reality check here: GM wouldn't have spent the money putting a second set of cats on the car if it wasn't necessary for emissions. Here in Maricopa county, we have to smog check the cars, and the test stations plug sniffers into the pipes. They even take a smear of the soot in the pipes to look for lead and make you change your pipes and cats if they get a positive result before you can get a plate. Just sayin'.

It might have been an afterthought. The ZR1 has basically the same motor, passes emissions, and has an exhaust that screams. So it can be done, it just comes down to engineering.