: Dad buys 15 year old a Camaro SS...



Jon
02-17-10, 11:23 PM
YouTube- 2010 Camaro SS Birthday Surprise


My wife and I ordered this 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS as a surprise birthday gift for our fifteen year old son. This was a complete surprise and he had absolutely no idea that the car was his, enjoy the video. On another note, I appreciate everyone's concern for his well-being, however I think it is more responsible for a parent to teach a teenager how to drive than to pretend that theyre not going to drive fast. The car is not the danger; an inexperienced driver is usually what causes injury or death, regardless of their age.

He seemed like a good kid and his family looked like they could afford it. Looked like he got all teary eyed and gave his parents a nice big hug. I'm happy for him. He's got a year before he can actually get a license so that's plenty of time to learn a stick in a parking lot.

Not all teens are retarded and wrap their cars around poles. I'm 24 now and still have a clean driving record. 0 accidents, 0 tickets.

Destroyer
02-18-10, 12:07 AM
I plan on doing this for my son, except he would get a smaller engined car so it wouldn't be as cool but I know first hand how teens like the teen I was drove like and I know that type of teen should not have something this fast. I've seen friends parents buy car like this for their kids, well slower cars actually cause we are talking 20+ years ago so I'm talking 89 Mustang GT and I've seen my friend die because of the parents decision to buy that car. I myself had fast cars at that age and by all admission should be dead and almost got into catastrophic accidents many times but didn't due to nothing but luck. How would the parents that bought this kid that SS feel if their son got into an deadly accident while street racing with this car? Like shit, that's what.

I know first hand that driving a car like this brings on a certain amount of pressure from others that want to race or constantly being challenged to prove that it's faster than some other guys car or whatever. Cool thought but not cool to actually buy a car like this for a teen. In my youth I would never suspect that I would think this way one day but as a father, I do. :cookoo:

Rolex
02-18-10, 12:16 AM
16 year old males are the most expensive drivers to insure because statistically they crash vehicles more then ANY other age or gender driver. You may be the exception to the rule, but I sure wasn't. I was wild when I was 16 and willing to take reckless chances at every turn. A 400hp, 40k car, stick shift, paired with the need to show off for the girls and rowdy friends.....what could possibly go wrong?

I'm happy for the kid too. I bet he's a good kid and deserves it. It's a big responsibility and I hope he takes care of the car and stays safe. :)

thebigjimsho
02-18-10, 12:50 AM
I know a friend of the family who has a son who had an EVO IX. Good kid, really humble, mild mannered, loves cars and is an enthusiast. He lost control of it last fall and hit a tree in the neighborhood. His friend was ejected from the car and killed.

He has to go to court, he's lost his license and he's trying to get into college but this accident has an affect. The kid is extremely remorseful and has been devastated by it all.

True, not all kids will wreck their cars. But they're NOT experienced. Why risk it? I got most of my dumbassery out in a Chevy Citation and then a Corsica. I got my SHO when I was 20 and had 4+ years of driving under my belt. And even then, if I was an average driver, I'd be getting my arse in trouble...

77CDV
02-18-10, 01:43 AM
To quote an oft-used Far Side caption: Trouble brewing.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-18-10, 01:49 AM
Lucky kid, hopefully he takes good care of it and doesn't become a statistic.

I remember being 17 and having that Roadmaster, FONDLY. I was so proud of my land-yacht, especially considering the corvette-sourced engine under it's hood. I can vividly remember getting rubber every day as I would leave the high school parking lot. It was SO cool to me to have that big, powerful car when everybody else thought their little Honda or Pontiac was the coolest thing ever, and I wasn't afraid to bury the throttle from a dead stop and often embarrass other drivers. But when it came to speeding though, I was pretty cautious, as I was still young and very afraid of getting pulled over for doing more than 10 over the limit.

I didn't get my first speeding ticket until I was 20, and that was for doing 17mph over the speed limit in the Mercedes, and that car, ironically, was the slowest car of mine, in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-18-10, 01:49 AM
Lucky kid, hopefully he takes good care of it and doesn't become a statistic.

I remember being 17 and having that Roadmaster, FONDLY. I was so proud of my land-yacht, especially considering the corvette-sourced engine under it's hood. I can vividly remember getting rubber every day as I would leave the high school parking lot. It was SO cool to me to have that big, powerful car when everybody else thought their little Honda or Pontiac was the coolest thing ever, and I wasn't afraid to bury the throttle from a dead stop and often embarrass other drivers. But when it came to speeding though, I was pretty cautious, as I was still young and very afraid of getting pulled over for doing more than 10 over the limit.

I didn't get my first speeding ticket until I was 20, and that was for doing 17mph over the speed limit in the Mercedes, and that car, ironically, was the slowest car of mine, in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

DopeStar 156
02-18-10, 02:08 AM
My 15th birthday my dad took me to get a job......

ga_etc
02-18-10, 02:47 AM
I understand why the parents got the kid the car, but it still makes no sense to throw him the keys to a 426 HP muscle car. And that is coming from someone at the age of 23. I love having the grunt of a powerful V8 under my right foot, but at 16 it's just dangerous. The kid is an inexperienced driver to start with and it won't take much for that car to get away from him. It wouldn't take much for that car to get away from an experienced driver either, for that matter. My great uncle has one of the cars and it's an automatic SS. We went for a ride in it and he let me drive. Even in the auto with the T/C on it takes surprisingly little to turn the tires loose.

Congrats to the kid. I just hope he is careful with it.

V-Eight
02-18-10, 04:30 AM
Lucky kid, wish that was me lol

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
02-18-10, 04:37 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is ridiculous? I've had to pay for EVERYTHING myself since the day I got a job when I was 16. I've been buying my own cars, clothes and shoes for the past 4 years. I pay for my insurance, repairs, my gas and I still manage to have enough left to treat myself to several nights out a week. I have only had to ask my parents for a little emergency cash once. Its not that we don't have the money, my parents are very well off, but I was raised with the knowledge that you get nothing for free.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm being a whiny prick, but if the parent's give the kids everything they want all their life how are they gonna make it in the real world? I am glad my parents raised me the way they did because I appreciate my own posessions much more than other people I know that have had stuff handed to them all their life.

V-Eight
02-18-10, 04:42 AM
but I was raised with the knowledge that you get nothing for free.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm being a whiny prick, but if the parent's give the kids everything they want all their life how are they gonna make it in the real world? I am glad my parents raised me the way they did because I appreciate my own posessions much more than other people I know that have had stuff handed to them all their life.

Me too and I completely agree.

Krashed989
02-18-10, 05:14 AM
Pshhh... I got my caddy when I was 14.... but I had to fix it and save it from the junkyard for it to be mine... I still own it... Any attempts to save up for a new car has been smashed by having to buy more parts for this car... It's alright, but it needs to retire.

I wish I got something like that.... It's ok though because I have a new job and I may actually be able to afford stuff again and possibly a new (used) car.

C&C
02-18-10, 06:51 AM
Okay, I'm 59 (and a little bit jealous).

This confirms that having money does not equate to having 'brains'. Not quite the worse car you can buy for a 'first timer', but pretty darn close to the top of the list (of cars not to get).

Also, the birthday boy sure had a reserved reaction (even at my present, nearing 60 years of age) I believe I would be jumping up and down, saying, wow, no way, this is great.

thebigjimsho
02-18-10, 10:27 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is ridiculous? I've had to pay for EVERYTHING myself since the day I got a job when I was 16. I've been buying my own cars, clothes and shoes for the past 4 years. I pay for my insurance, repairs, my gas and I still manage to have enough left to treat myself to several nights out a week. I have only had to ask my parents for a little emergency cash once. Its not that we don't have the money, my parents are very well off, but I was raised with the knowledge that you get nothing for free.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm being a whiny prick, but if the parent's give the kids everything they want all their life how are they gonna make it in the real world? I am glad my parents raised me the way they did because I appreciate my own posessions much more than other people I know that have had stuff handed to them all their life.
Too bad your parents didn't include reading comprehension. A number of us think it's ridiculous...

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
02-18-10, 10:35 AM
The danger is that while the kid *seems* sensible in front of his parents, what will he be like with a load of his friends egging him on and some hot girl he wants to show off in front of? He's lucky to have *any* car as a gift.

I understand that those with money want their kids to have everything, but I'm pretty sure that causes problems re learning the value of things and hard work.

I didn't get my first car until I was 24 as I had no money in high school and college cost money so until I had been in a job for a year after leaving college and could get a loan for a sued car, I had to take the bus...

I'm happy for the kid, I just hope he realises how lucky he actually is and that he doesn't hurt himself (or more to the point anyone else) with it.

That's a lot of power through the rear wheels for a new driver, and in my experience Camaros have always been tail happy...

thebigjimsho
02-18-10, 10:57 AM
The danger is that while the kid *seems* sensible in front of his parents, what will he be like with a load of his friends egging him on and some hot girl he wants to show off in front of? He's lucky to have *any* car as a gift.

I understand that those with money want their kids to have everything, but I'm pretty sure that causes problems re learning the value of things and hard work.

I didn't get my first car until I was 24 as I had no money in high school and college cost money so until I had been in a job for a year after leaving college and could get a loan for a sued car, I had to take the bus...

I'm happy for the kid, I just hope he realises how lucky he actually is and that he doesn't hurt himself (or more to the point anyone else) with it.

That's a lot of power through the rear wheels for a new driver, and in my experience Camaros have always been tail happy...
He's not lucky. Nothing about giving a 15 year old kid a car like that is beneficial.

Kick94sts
02-18-10, 12:07 PM
I would literally chit my pants if I got any type of camaro when I was 15 y/o lol. I got my dads ex farm truck when I turned 16. a 1989 chevy regular cab long box. 210hp 350 cu.in. V8 and I thought I was on top of the world :lol: I then bought a 1981 monte carlo with my cash I'd been saving since I was 14. I decided to ditch that one and used the money to buy an 85 monte carlo with a bigger motor :lol: Then the next year I worked almost everyday in the summer 9hr days and used some of my other saved cash and bought my Seville.

Jon
02-18-10, 01:09 PM
Ive been driving since I turned 16 and have not gotten myself into any trouble. 0 tickets 0 accidents. And I have had very capable cars. Not all of us are crazy and immature

LS1Mike
02-18-10, 01:16 PM
Cool Car, Cooler parents. I worked for all my stuff. My first car was an 86 Renault Alliance...Hot!

The Camaro idea? Stupid probably, but I was stupid with a Renault, at least this Camaro has good brakes and handles pretty decent.
16 year old kids are going to be stupid in anything. Period. Plenty of teens die in cars with a 1/4 of the horse power.
I guess maybe the Camaro just makes it easier.

I don't care that the kid got is a gift, more power to him and his family that they can afford to do that.
I had a buddy in High School named Eric, he had a brand new 91 Corvette, then a 92 Formula and then a 93 Z-28.
His parents bought him everyone. He was a good kid, never got into trouble with it and I think I have may have been the only
one to put the 93 in triple digits one night on a beer run, Yeah I did some stupid shit when I was a 18, find me someone who hasen't.

orconn
02-18-10, 01:21 PM
When my son turned sixteen we lived in an area of Los Angeles that had very high auto insurance rates. Thre premium for a 16 year old male would hav been $6000.00 in addition to the $4000.00 my wife and I were paiyng for our two business class daily drivers (this was 15 years ago so who knows what it would be today!). So we decided he could get an additional years experince driving on his learner's permit. Of the 15 or so young males that we knew that started driving that year at least twelve of them had accidents, with several totalling the new cars they were given and one kid was involved in a fatal accident. While learning to become a good driver in a major metropolitan area involves more risks than doing the same in a less demanding traffic environment, I think the boys youth and lack of judgement had more to do with the disastrous first year of driving than the city's heavy traffic.

He got his full lisence when he turned 17 (insurance cost dropped considerably after just one year of elgibility) but we did not give him his own car, but gave him use of one of the family cars a ten year old 1985 Thunderbird with 34,000 miles on it that we had inherited when my Mother gave up driving. He used this car to get back and for to school and to the stables each afternoon to train on his show jumper.

Tradition, in our family, dictated that children not be given cars, but rather that they had to make the money to buy their own cars ....... as my father said "The good news is you get to pick any car you can afford!" This held true for my son also, he worked the Summer after his freshman year in college and banked enough money to pay the lease on a new Honda Accord to take back to school. My first car, which I bought myself when I was 21, in 1964, was a 1958 Jaguar XK 150 drophead (thanks Dad for the privilege of buying my own car!).

While I know that parents want to give their kids the best they can afford, I don't think giving them new cars teaches the young person the responsibility the driving and car ownership entails. When all is said and done driving is a privilege which comes with a lot responsibility and potential economic liabilities that need to be understood. To be given a car, and especially a new car, gives the young person the idea that this privilege is a right and is easy to come by just by attaining a certain birthday. Regardless of the parents financial ability to give a child a car, I think it is far better if the child learns some of the true cost by earning the money for his own car. Even if this means the aprent will have to endure the inconvenience of having to drive the kid a little longer to get to his many activities (despite the limited time that two income families have for these chores).

orconn
02-18-10, 01:30 PM
Ive been driving since I turned 16 and have not gotten myself into any trouble. 0 tickets 0 accidents. And I have had very capable cars. Not all of us are crazy and immature

I agree that there are many young folks who are up to the responsibilty and judgenment of driving, even driving fast cars, unfortunately the facts tell us most are not up to the task. I laud you for being a member of the former group, but as you have this level of maturity I am sure you recognise that most of your piers fall into the second category. The fact that many in the second group are involved in serious accidents during their first years of driving is born out by the statistics and the cost of insuring the young driver. Unfortunately the mature youngster has to pay right along with the irresponsible young drivers.

jedhead
02-18-10, 01:38 PM
I wanted to buy a 1972 Hemi Cuda for my first car back in 1975. I had the money, but the bank account was a joint account with my father. When my dad found out what I wanted to buy, after my clumsy attempt at keeping secret the Hemi part of the Cuda, he told me that he was going to save my life by not letting me get the car. If did buy it and kept to today, I would have a valuable car. However, I believe that my dad did save my life.
I would not have purchased a SS Camaro for my kid at 16. I would purchased one for my 22 year old kid for college graduation though. I promised my kids a car for college graduation and I have one graduating this year. I wanted to emphasize college over high school.

Bob

gdwriter
02-18-10, 01:49 PM
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I'm happy for the kid, getting his dream car. Who among us wouldn't want that? Clearly, his family can afford it, and I think his parents wanted to do something really cool for him. He seems like a good kid (hard to make such a judgment based on a 9-minute video).

On the other hand, I think putting a teenager behind the wheel of 425-HP is just asking for trouble. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even at 43, I'd have trouble resisting the urge to open that baby up often. I still get a visceral thrill from goosing the Northstar. No, had I been those parents, I would have bought the V6. Still looks cool, still has plenty of power, but not as much potential for disaster. And if the kid gets a ticket, I would take the Camaro away for at least a month. Maybe longer.

Like JD, I've been working and paying my own way since I was 16. I still remember making payments of ~$60 a month on the $1,250 loan for my '74 Toyota Celica back in 1983-84. And I paid the loan off six months early. I paid for my own gas, my own insurance and most of my maintenance and repairs.

In college, my parents paid for room and board, and I paid tuition. Fortunately, I had an academic scholarship (it pays to be smart), and it was generous enough that I had several hundred dollars left over after tuition and books for living expenses. I still worked during college, but only a few hours a week, so I could still have the full college experience.

I feel sorry for today's college students who are saddled with huge student loans. One of my friends, who followed his undergrad degree with pharmacy school, has student loan payments equivalent to my mortgage; at least pharmacists make good money.

At the time, I sometimes resented the "you want it, pay for it yourself" attitude of my parents, and I really resented it when they were much more generous with my little sister than they were with me and my older sister. But it did instill in me a work ethic and personal responsibility; I make enough money now to enjoy the things I want, but I still budget and monitor my spending.

My older sister, on the other hand, had gone too far to the opposite of my parents, being way too indulgent of my eldest niece, who has milked it for all its worth. I resent her seeing her mother as her personal ATM, and after years of this, I think my sister has finally shut it down.

gary88
02-18-10, 01:55 PM
I knew a guy who over the course of high school had a brand new 645Ci for his first car right when they came out, three different M3s, a Mercedes CLS, and a Porsche 911 C4S. He never crashed or got a ticket, he was a huge douche though :alchi:

Hopefully this kid really appreciates what he's been given and uses that year to learn the ins and outs of the car along with how it behaves on his permit before getting his license.

HAZZARDJOHN
02-18-10, 02:23 PM
When I was 15 I was Jealous of all the kids who’s parents bought them cars. I worked my ass off to buy my first car (actually it was a pickup and 88 ranger) but unlike most of my friends who were given a hand me down car. I took very good care of my pickup while they were trashing their vehicles cause I knew that that vehicle represented about two years of hard work and if I destroyed it, it was all for naught.

That being said, I do agree that 99% of first year drivers should not have a car like this, but I am giving his parents the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had a parents like mine, My Dad is a great guy, but somehow he maintained the ability to leave me in fear of him if I came home being in real trouble. And my Mom, I would never want to disappoint her. Not sure how they pulled that off, but because of these two things, I never got in any real trouble and I had a lot more freedom at that age than most of my friends. I think it comes down to being raised with respect. Trust me, the crowd I hung out with were no angels and I had plenty of chances to screw up, but I always managed to stay out of it. Maybe that is the situation here.

~HJ

gdwriter
02-18-10, 02:35 PM
Though I'm not a parent, here's how I think I would handle things:


For the first few months after getting his license, the kid gets use of one of the family cars to prove he can be responsible with it (that's what my parents did with my first '64 Impala, which was pretty much my car at the time). He'd be expected to fill the tank every so often. Washing it occasionally would be nice, too.
After working a summer job and saving most of the money, I'd help him buy a car of his choice (within reason). Nothing too expensive, too fancy or too fast; something reliable to get him through high school and college. But not a crappy penalty box like a Neon, either.
Upon graduating from college, I'd buy him a new or nearly new car of his choice (again, within reason). And if I couldn't quite afford that, I'd at least make the payments for the first six months or a year.

Kind of a happy medium between being too indulgent and too cheap.

Albertan
02-18-10, 03:41 PM
A common theme here seems to be that it is better to work and buy your own car. The person will treat it better.
With my 3 kids, I only allowed them to drive one of our cars until out of high school. I took the oldest out car shopping in 2001. She chose a 1992 Corisca for $2000. I co signed the loan for it. I also did all maintenance and I paid for some gas. When she had her first accident, (rear ended a Chev Blazer trailer hitch) I repaired it and she paid me the $300 I spent for parts at Pick and Pull.
Then I put the insurance in her name. She drove it until she finished university.
Then she bought a 2002 Cavalier.
I managed to get my brother in law's mother's car for my son. A 1985 K car with no options, not even a passenger side rear view mirror. He drove it for a couple of years then bought my 2000 Old Alero. He slid on ice and totaled it off running into a couple of parked trucks. So he drove the K car again. K car was dying so I bought him a 97 Cavalier that he still drives.
Youngest daughter inherited the 92 Corsica until she got a 98 Sunfire that I now have for sale. She now drives a 95 BMW 318IS that I rebuilt last year.
All three are good kids and still had minor accidents, just the inexperience factor.

thebigjimsho
02-18-10, 04:20 PM
Ive been driving since I turned 16 and have not gotten myself into any trouble. 0 tickets 0 accidents. And I have had very capable cars. Not all of us are crazy and immature
And I had zero accidents until a year ago. But even though I was head and shoulders above most drivers of the same age, I wasn't ahead of less talented, more experienced drivers. Did you go to college when you were 6? Did you eat steak as an infant? Don't get so full of yourself, Jon. Talent NEVER trumps experience. Talent + Experience = WIN.

thebigjimsho
02-18-10, 04:27 PM
This is America so people can do whatever they want. However, I get pissed that dumbass parents who just want to be seen as cool give little kids the ability to kill themselves, and others, in seconds.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-18-10, 07:42 PM
I hated how all the spoiled kids (the preps) at my high school had their cars bought by their parents. I loved the fact that I paid for 80% of my Roadmaster (I paid them back for the $300 they loaned me), and still had a car cooler to me than their junk.

itschrome
02-18-10, 07:54 PM
all i know it that's a whole Lotta car for some one his age. I recall being 16 having a 97hp dodge k car and still some how managing to go 100mph........ best wishes to his family in hoping he can control that right foot of his..

orconn
02-18-10, 08:45 PM
I lived in New Jersey when I came of age to drive ... even back in the dark ages you had to be 17 to get your learner's permit (really ticked the New Jersey kids off 'cause across the river in Pensylvania they could get their learner's permits at 15 1/2 and their full lisences at 16). Well as I have said elsewhere, my Dad's rule was "we do not buy our kids cars, but they can drive one of ours till they can afford to buy there own without a co-signer." But part of the deal was you didn't get to pick which car you got to drive. My family had three cars at the time I turned 17, my dad's '56 Cad, my mother's '57 Olds 98 4 door Holiday (with J-2 pack) and the 1956 Mercedes 300D sedan. I was allocated the Mercedes, today it is considered a classic but in the Summer of 1960 it was considered very unfashionable and slow. Now the Mercedes weighed about 5000 lbs. and had a 3 litre engine that maybe produced 120 HP. This was the car that became the "Adenauer" Mercedes (named after the Chancellor of Germany in the 1950's who was seen in the news reels being driven in one). Needless to say I wasn't tempted to drag race in this car. And because it looked rather imposing in a "head of state" sort of way when it was cleaned up, I became very proficient at cleaning and detailing the old crock. In return for use of the Merc I was supposed to wash and maintain my parents other cars. I'd say now it was a very fair deal given that they paid for my gas and insurance. I got to use the other cars on special ocassions, although I drove to my Summer job, of working construction on apartments my folks were building, in the big black Mercedes! Actually the girls I went out with seemed to like the old dear, I rarely went very fast because the roads in South Jersey, at the time, weren't long enough to get the Mercedes up to 60 mph (the max speed limit in NJ at the time, even on the NJ Turnpike, was 55mph). In retrospect I think my Dad had method in his madness, keeping me out of trouble till I got some experience driving!

Jon
02-18-10, 11:47 PM
And I had zero accidents until a year ago. But even though I was head and shoulders above most drivers of the same age, I wasn't ahead of less talented, more experienced drivers. Did you go to college when you were 6? Did you eat steak as an infant? Don't get so full of yourself, Jon. Talent NEVER trumps experience. Talent + Experience = WIN.
Not being full of myself. I'm giving an example that not all teenagers are retarded. People here seem to think that teenager + fast car = instant death. In many cases yes, in some cases no.

In regards to "Did you go to college when you were 6? Did you eat steak as an infant?" no, but I also didn't drive until I was 16, so what's your point? Is it likely that an inexperienced driver with a fast car to wreck it? Sure. Is it possible that it will not happen? Absolutely. That's my point.

Brett
02-19-10, 12:44 PM
The lesson I learned from similar gifts when I was a kid was that hard work paid off. Not every kid gets spoiled by this type of stuff, in fact I would say most don't. There will come a time when the kid will have to pay for his own cars and he'll have first hand knowledge of what money can buy.

concorso
02-19-10, 12:49 PM
Not being full of myself. I'm giving an example that not all teenagers are retarded. People here seem to think that teenager + fast car = instant death. In many cases yes, in some cases no.

In regards to "Did you go to college when you were 6? Did you eat steak as an infant?" no, but I also didn't drive until I was 16, so what's your point? Is it likely that an inexperienced driver with a fast car to wreck it? Sure. Is it possible that it will not happen? Absolutely. That's my point.Ludicrous argument, imo. You shouldn't put a 400 hp sports car in the hand of a 16 yr old based on the possibility that he might not have a crash. There's always a chance a serial rapist wouldn't jump your wife if left in a room unprotected...but is it a legitimate risk?

The lack of any speeding tickets or crashes is not evidence that you're a good driver, either. I know at least 2 people who've never gotten a ticket or had an accident, yet they're 2 of the most dangerous drivers Ive ever seen.
On top of this, Lewis Hamilton has had an accident. Does that imply that hes a bad driver? The fact that you haven't had an accident or a ticket, is almost as much circumstantial as it is anything else.

Brett
02-19-10, 12:58 PM
You dont put a 400 hp sports car in the hand of a 16 yr old based on the possibility that he might not have a crash..


You dont not put a 400 hp sports car in the hand of a 16 yr old based on the possibility that he might have a crash. Same logic


The cars I had in my teens; Ford Mustang LX 5.0, Pontiac Formula 350, and a Buick GN all made it through the experience in pristine condition. A friend of mine with a chevy cavalier wrapped it around a tree. He couldn't drive for shit.

concorso
02-19-10, 01:03 PM
You dont not put a 400 hp sports car in the hand of a 16 yr old based on the possibility that he might have a crash. Same logic
Same logic, yes, but an entirely different end result. Theres a good reason why insurance is higher for 16 yr old males than any other demo. It is because there's a much greater chance of that group driving wreckless.

A few personal examples of young people driving properly is not a indicator of average.

Brett
02-19-10, 01:04 PM
Same logic, yes, but an entirely different end result. Theres a good reason why insurance is higher for 16 yr old males than any other demo. It is because there's a much greater chance of that group driving wreckless.

Insurance premiums are higher for all 16 year old drivers not just 16 year old drivers of Camaro SS's.

CIWS
02-19-10, 03:58 PM
Ive been driving since I turned 16 and have not gotten myself into any trouble. 0 tickets 0 accidents. And I have had very capable cars. Not all of us are crazy and immature

There are always exceptions to the rules. Jon you sound like the exception, but the rule is pretty much a Rolex stated. A 16 or 17 year old behind the wheel of a muscle car is going to run it, hell the adults do (I did). The main difference is usually one has years of driving experience and one does not. Let's hope the parents don't have a reason to regret the decision. :)

In my case I either had someone upstairs watching over me or was just plain lucky.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 04:27 PM
Not being full of myself. I'm giving an example that not all teenagers are retarded. People here seem to think that teenager + fast car = instant death. In many cases yes, in some cases no.

In regards to "Did you go to college when you were 6? Did you eat steak as an infant?" no, but I also didn't drive until I was 16, so what's your point? Is it likely that an inexperienced driver with a fast car to wreck it? Sure. Is it possible that it will not happen? Absolutely. That's my point.
My point is we all grow up learning to do things gradually. Giving a new driver a car with such high capabilities without the experience is ridiculous. Doesn't matter if he loves cars and has played Gran Turismo for 10 years or some depressed sloth who doesn't give 2 craps about cars or life. Neither has the experience that you or I have after years of observing the road. I am 100 times the driver I was at 16, even if 16yo me would disagree.

Unless you have learned nothing since you've started driving, how can you not agree with my point?

Giving this 15yo a Camaro SS is unbelievably stupid and that's the bottom line. Doesn't matter if this kid never has an accident or has 10 before his 18th birthday...

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 04:53 PM
I'm in the "bad idea" camp on this one. I did so many stupid things in my beat up old 83hp Mazda 626 that would have resulted in fiery death if I'd been in a 400hp car.

Drifting in wet parking lots? Yep.
Burnouts? You betcha.
Hitting the gas a little too hard coming out of a corner and getting a little wheelspin and oversteer? Oh yeah.

Fortunately, I was driving a predictable and underpowered car (that I bought from my parents for $500 with nearly 200k on the clock). Having that car not only taught me how to drive and what not to do, but the old age and recurring need for repairs taught me how to work on cars and the value of parts.

Jon, everyone here knows that there's plenty of kids out there that get hot cars and don't do something incredibly stupid, but the fact of the matter is that more DO than don't. Inexperience, excitement, peer pressure and tons of horsepower are not a good mix.

V-Eight
02-19-10, 05:06 PM
Oversteer? Wasn't the 626 FWD?

Stingroo
02-19-10, 05:08 PM
I'm in the "bad idea" camp on this one. I did so many stupid things in my beat up old 83hp Mazda 626 that would have resulted in fiery death if I'd been in a 400hp car.

Drifting in wet parking lots? Yep.
Burnouts? You betcha.
Hitting the gas a little too hard coming out of a corner and getting a little wheelspin and oversteer? Oh yeah.

Fortunately, I was driving a predictable and underpowered car (that I bought from my parents for $500 with nearly 200k on the clock). Having that car not only taught me how to drive and what not to do, but the old age and recurring need for repairs taught me how to work on cars and the value of parts.

Jon, everyone here knows that there's plenty of kids out there that get hot cars and don't do something incredibly stupid, but the fact of the matter is that more DO than don't. Inexperience, excitement, peer pressure and tons of horsepower are not a good mix.


[/debate]

orconn
02-19-10, 05:12 PM
[
Jon, everyone here knows that there's plenty of kids out there that get hot cars and don't do something incredibly stupid, but the fact of the matter is that more DO than don't. Inexperience, excitement, peer pressure and tons of horsepower are not a good mix.[/QUOTE]

I emphatically agree with the above summation!

Brett
02-19-10, 05:14 PM
Jon, everyone here knows that there's plenty of kids out there that get hot cars and don't do something incredibly stupid, but the fact of the matter is that more DO than don't..

I think the same could be said about any car though, teenagers just drive stupidly. I dont think the car in and of itself is the problem. I see civics and accords loaded with teenagers darting in and out of traffic and speeding down side streets more than any other car.

Im not saying that you are saying this but it seems like the basic tone here is that if you give a kid a fast car someone will die.


Cars dont kill people, people kill people :cool2:

V-Eight
02-19-10, 05:38 PM
I think the same could be said about any car though, teenagers just drive stupidly. I dont think the car in and of itself is the problem. I see civics and accords loaded with teenagers darting in and out of traffic and speeding down side streets more than any other car.



But that's exactly the issue, if they're doing stupid shit with a 150hp car, imagine the trouble they could get into in a car with 400.

Brett
02-19-10, 05:47 PM
So the next time some dumbass 16 year old in a civic is screaming down the highway at 90mph darting in and out of traffic with his girlfriend yelling at him to slow down, he should just say "Dont worry baby, it's not like we're in a Camaro SS"

Listen, no doubt a 400hp car CAN be more dangerous than a 150hp car but that does not mean it IS more dangerous. It only becomes more dangerous when it is used dangerously. Im just not buying the line of thinking that says:

16yr + 400hp = crash
16yr + 150hp =safe

Both cars are dangerous for a 16 year old or really anyone to be driving.

Brett
02-19-10, 05:52 PM
I guess my question becomes, should 16 year olds be driving at all? It seems most here think that a car that goes 150+ is too fast. So then that begs the question, how fast is too fast? 120, 100, 80, 60, 40? All of those speeds can kill you.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 06:15 PM
Oversteer? Wasn't the 626 FWD?

Yes indeed, but wet roads over over-exuberant corner exits can still make for a little tail sliding. :D

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 06:17 PM
Im just not buying the line of thinking that says:

16yr + 400hp = crash
16yr + 150hp =safe

Both cars are dangerous for a 16 year old or really anyone to be driving.

And no one is saying that's true either. What we're saying is:

16yr old + 150hp = Average likelihood of crash
16yr old + 400hp = High likelihood of crash

Brett
02-19-10, 06:25 PM
And no in saying that's true either. What we're saying is:

16yr old + 150hp = Average likelihood of crash
16yr old + 400hp = High likelihood of crash

I guess that goes to the crux of my disagreement, going off what you said you could replace "16yr old" with basically any age and the statement would still be true(perhaps replacing "high" with "higher"). I know its more dangerous, i just dont think its some statistics bomb whereas a 16 year old gets in an SS and is almost guaranteed to crash.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 06:25 PM
Cars dont kill people, people kill people :cool2:
So there is no such thing as temptation?

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 06:26 PM
I guess that goes to the crux of my disagreement, going off what you said you could replace "16yr old" with basically any age and the statement would still be true(perhaps replacing "high" with "higher"). I know its more dangerous, i just dont think its some statistics bomb whereas a 16 year old gets in an SS and is almost guaranteed to crash.
Has any of us said that? I know I haven't.

Brett
02-19-10, 06:33 PM
Has any of us said that? I know I haven't.

you said it was "unbelievably stupid". If something has reached a level of stupidity that makes someone in fact not believe what they just saw then I think it's reasonable to assume that the someone is essentially predicting disaster. I just don't think that disaster is as imminent as it's being made out to be.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 06:42 PM
you said it was "unbelievably stupid". If something has reached a level of stupidity that makes someone in fact not believe what they just saw then I think it's reasonable to assume that the someone is essentially predicting disaster. I just don't think that disaster is as imminent as it's being made out to be.
Whether it's 1% or 10% or 50%, giving the temptation to be able to ludicrously fast to someone just getting their license is incredibly stupid...

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 06:48 PM
How about this analogy:


Someone's daughter is 16 and is allowed to start dating. She's a smart girl and has been raised right.

She likes a boy who is a virgin, is always polite and thoughtful and really likes someone's daughter. Someone trusts their daughter.

She likes a boy who has plenty of experience. He's nailed a lot of girls. He does like someone's daughter and is nice and polite. But the other girls know he's a sweet talker and can be very tempting. The kid's a stud. Someone trusts their daughter.


Of course, the daughter can be trustworthy. And she can get into just as much trouble with the 1st kid as the second. She can do things her own way and not give the 2nd boy anything.


But let's stop ignoring human nature, OK???

Brett
02-19-10, 07:01 PM
some insurance stats would be nice. Let's say 16 year olds wreck Civics at 3 times the rate that 30 year olds wreck civics. The question then becomes do 16 year olds wreck Camaro SS's at 3 times the rate of 30 year olds. If they do, then the reality is that the danger is a constant and it's the driver not the car. If instead 16 year olds are wrecking Camaro SS's at higher than 3 times the rate of 30 year olds then its the car and your point would be proven.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 07:03 PM
I'm glad you're not my father. Jeesh...

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 07:04 PM
I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that someone inexperienced at controlling a piece of machinery is more apt to mishandle it and cause a disaster. This is true whether we're talking 16 or 60, and whether we're talking automobiles or a circular saw.

Toss in the fact that teenagers feel indestructible and are subject to peer pressure, and the risk multiplies exponentially. Anyone saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of arguing, or blind to reality.

Brett
02-19-10, 07:06 PM
I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that someone inexperienced at controlling a piece of machinery is more apt to mishandle it and cause a disaster. This is true whether we're talking 16 or 60, and whether we're talking automobiles or a circular saw.

Toss in the fact that teenagers feel indestructible and are subject to peer pressure, and the risk multiplies exponentially. Anyone saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of arguing, or blind to reality.

No doubt teens cause way more accidents than adults

Brett
02-19-10, 07:07 PM
I'm glad you're not my father. Jeesh...

ummmm, okay. Sorry to be so boring I guess

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 07:10 PM
No doubt teens cause way more accidents than adults

...and would you also agree that it's far easier for anyone, of any age or driving skill, to lose control of a high HP car in the blink of an eye?

Brett
02-19-10, 07:14 PM
...and would you also agree that it's far easier for anyone, of any age or driving skill, to lose control of a high HP car in the blink of an eye?

well thats one of my points. If we are saying it's ubelievably stupid for a teen to have a HP car I suspect statistically it is also stupid for an adult to have a HP car....the latter choice is one of the reasons that this sites exists at all and the former apparently is too stupid to even contemplate.

Jon
02-19-10, 07:22 PM
Take a look at how many exotic / sports cars get wrecked out there on a daily basis. You honestly think they're all driven by 16-17 year olds? How many teens actually have cars like that? The reality is that most of the "nicer" vehicles are owned by adults, and they still get smashed.

I'd be willing to bet that 80% of "responsible" adults out there would wreck a Camaro SS. It doesn't matter how old you are. Any person who hasn't been taught to respect the power of a vehicle can write it off in minutes. Teach a kid the power of a car and how to handle it and they'll at least have a fighting chance.

You trying to tell me someone that's driven a Geo Metro for 10 years isn't likely to wreck a Camaro SS 10 minutes after they get it? Don't be stupid.

Brett
02-19-10, 07:22 PM
Its not like I have an ax to grind here. I can agree to disagree. :)

Nutz
02-19-10, 07:26 PM
I must be an exception to the rule here too. I bought a rusty burnt orange 70 Roadrunner at 16-1/2 years old. I drove that thing like the Dukes of Hazzard cause it was exactly when that series was showing. Well over 400 h.p., never scratched it or for that matter every car thereafter.

Ready to hear where I bought it?... Off my 18 year old brother for 600 bucks that wanted to sell it for a Harley...:bonkers:
My mom and dad were furious at him for selling it to me. I still keep a pic of it in my wallet for memories when I see old friends from school.


I was wrenchin on buddy's cars way before I bought it though, and driving at late 14 and often when I was 15. I have mixed feelings about the kid in the video. He doesn't seem like a true car guy by his lack of knowledge which is a negative thing to me. But he was very calm and showed self control at the point of receiving the Camaro which I see as a positive. Ultimately I think his safety will hinge on who he hangs with and whether he gets a girlfriend to help him think responsibly.

Jon
02-19-10, 07:28 PM
Unless you have learned nothing since you've started driving, how can you not agree with my point?


If you start at 16 with a V8 RWD car and are responsible, you will learn more than you can with a 4 cylinder POS.

Let's say you learn to drive a big honking minivan... You'd have no problem driving a small compact. Try it the other way around.

Let's say you learn to drive in a manual, you'd have no problem driving an automatic. Try that the other way around.

If you start off in a 4 banger POS, even when you're 40 years old you will not know how to properly handle a V8 RWD beast. Might as well learn it early.

Brett
02-19-10, 07:31 PM
I He doesn't seem like a true car guy by his lack of knowledge which is a negative thing to me..

agreed. I think it was mentioned somewhere in here that the dad was perhaps trying to be a "cool parent". In my experience it's usually a dad living vicariously through his son. It's no doubt something the dad dreamed about when he was 16 and this was his way of living his dream. That doesnt mean the kid wont LOVE it though.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 08:06 PM
No doubt teens cause way more accidents than adults



...and would you also agree that it's far easier for anyone, of any age or driving skill, to lose control of a high HP car in the blink of an eye?


well thats one of my points. If we are saying it's ubelievably stupid for a teen to have a HP car I suspect statistically it is also stupid for an adult to have a HP car

So will you concede the point that if all people are more likely to wreck a high HP car, and teens are more likely to wreck ANY car, that the combination of the two would make a wreck more likely?

It's not rocket science here.

-Teens driving any car= Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Person of any age driving a high HP cars = Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Teen + high HP car = WELL above average likelihood of a wreck

Brett
02-19-10, 08:15 PM
So will you concede the point that if all people are more likely to wreck a high HP car, and teens are more likely to wreck ANY car, that the combination of the two would make a wreck more likely?

It's not rocket science here.

-Teens driving any car= Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Person of any age driving a high HP cars = Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Teen + high HP car = WELL above average likelihood of a wreck

I always love how you get condescending...rocket science...ummmm duh....yep I are an idiot. I layed out the math several posts ago but I can do it again if you want???

In that post I pointed out that a teen driving a HP car would be the most likely to crash. The question though is the likelihood increased over a normal car or not in relation to an adult driving a HP car. i.e.

-teen is 3x more likely to crash a normal car AND is 3x more likely to crash a HP car. As I said in that case the car has nothing to do with it.

-If however a teen is 3x more likely to crash a regular car AND is 5x more likely to crash a HP then it's the car and you guys are correct.

At that point Jim stated he was glad I wasnt his father and since we have no figures to back this stuff up I agreed to disagree.

Without the stats I cant prove my point but the math is sound.

Destroyer
02-19-10, 08:31 PM
You may be the exception to the rule, but I sure wasn't. I was wild when I was 16 and willing to take reckless chances at every turn. A 400hp, 40k car, stick shift, paired with the need to show off for the girls and rowdy friends.....what could possibly go wrong? At 16 I had my first car, a heavily modified '78 Monte Carlo with a 383 Chevy. My parents being immigrants really didn't know what I had bought. They did question why it was so "loud" :). It was a 12 second car. I'd race on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic. I was out of control and I was very lucky.

More recently and local to me, look what happened to Hulk Hogan's kid Nick. He was in his very modded TT Supra, went out of control and killed his friend. It is a big risk buying a kid a car like this and an unnecessary one at that.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 09:25 PM
I always love how you get condescending...rocket science...

It's a sign of my frustration that people are ignoring logic here.


I layed out the math several posts ago but I can do it again if you want???

If you want to make it mathematical, that's great. We both agree that teens are more likely to crash a car, and also that the likelihood of a crash is greater when the HP is higher, regardless of age.

You used the figure of 3x more likely to describe the added risk of a teen driver crashing. If you select a random number to represent the average chance of crashing a car- let's use 50- then assign a numerical value to each risk factors at play here- let's say 10- the equation comes out exponentially higher for a teen in a high powered car.

(Average risk of crashing = 50)

(Average risk of crashing 50 + High performance car 10) = 60

(Average risk of crashing 50 + High performance car 10) x Teen Driver 3 = 180

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 09:33 PM
So will you concede the point that if all people are more likely to wreck a high HP car, and teens are more likely to wreck ANY car, that the combination of the two would make a wreck more likely?

It's not rocket science here.

-Teens driving any car= Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Person of any age driving a high HP cars = Higher than average likelihood of wreck
-Teen + high HP car = WELL above average likelihood of a wreck
I really am amazed at how hard this is to understand.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 09:40 PM
If you start at 16 with a V8 RWD car and are responsible, you will learn more than you can with a 4 cylinder POS.

Let's say you learn to drive a big honking minivan... You'd have no problem driving a small compact. Try it the other way around.

Let's say you learn to drive in a manual, you'd have no problem driving an automatic. Try that the other way around.

If you start off in a 4 banger POS, even when you're 40 years old you will not know how to properly handle a V8 RWD beast. Might as well learn it early.
Responsibility does NOT equal experience. You don't get in and drive a big honking minivan well without ever having turned a key before. You don't know how to drive a manual without actually meshing the clutch and gas together a few hundred times. Can you just jump in and properly handle a Camaro SS without having turned a key before?

Whether it takes 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or 2 decades to be able to properly handle a Camaro SS, you're ignoring that not a single person on this earth can jump into something and be at maximum capability instantaneously. This isn't the Matrix as you like to believe...

Brett
02-19-10, 09:43 PM
You used the figure of 3x more likely to describe the added risk of a teen driver crashing. If you select a random number to represent the average chance of crashing a car- let's use 50- then assign a numerical value to each risk factor at play here- let's say 10- the equation comes out exponentially higher for a teen in a high powered car.

(Average risk of crashing 50)

(Average risk of crashing 50 + High performance car 10) = 60

(Average risk of crashing 50 + High performance car 10) x Teen Driver x 3 = 180

You are assigning the risk for a teen driver to crash twice. Once when you add 10 and the second time when you multiply by three. Be that as it may I dont think you get what I am trying to say. My point is this, Ill use wrecks out of 100.

-Regular car Adult----5
-Regular car Kid----15

-HP car Adult----20
-HP car kid----60

Yes the kid will wreck the car more as Ive stated, but my point is the relation is the same, 3 to 1. Now if the "HP car kid" number was 80 then that would be a deviation and make the ratio 4 to 1. In that case we could prove that the risk factor does in fact increase exponentially.

thebigjimsho
02-19-10, 09:47 PM
1. That's my statistic. 1 great kid who has his life turned upside down and has no license and is fighting to get into colleges as he thinks about his friend who is dead in an accident in which he was behind the wheel of an Evo IX. Wet leaves. Inexperience. That is all.

Brett
02-19-10, 09:49 PM
I really am amazed at how hard this is to understand.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 11:06 PM
You are assigning the risk for a teen driver to crash twice. Once when you add 10 and the second time when you multiply by three. Be that as it may I dont think you get what I am trying to say.

I get what you're trying to say, but it's flawed. If we accept the fact that the risk factor rises when a high powered car is in the equation, it must be factored in before multiplying by the additional risk due to youth. Anyone who has ever autocrossed will tell you that your mistakes get magnified as the power output rises. Missing a turn in point or power oversteering on corner exit at 20mph in a Miata only pushes you 6 feet out of line and is easy to correct, whereas doing it in a Z06 at 30mph moves you 20 feet out of line and can very quickly lead to a spinout. 14 feet out of line and 10mph is the difference between just sliding onto the shoulder or stuffing the car into a tree (or oncoming traffic).

Put simply, there are now two variables in play that raise the risk factor- youth AND the muscle car. Examples such as adults with muscle cars or kids with normal cars only contain one risk factor each. Logic dictates that a machine that is more difficult to use is more likely to be misused in the hands of an inexperienced operator. That's not even taking into account the psychological factors like peer pressure and feeling invincible.

Jon
02-19-10, 11:11 PM
Responsibility does NOT equal experience. You don't get in and drive a big honking minivan well without ever having turned a key before. You don't know how to drive a manual without actually meshing the clutch and gas together a few hundred times. Can you just jump in and properly handle a Camaro SS without having turned a key before?

Whether it takes 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or 2 decades to be able to properly handle a Camaro SS, you're ignoring that not a single person on this earth can jump into something and be at maximum capability instantaneously. This isn't the Matrix as you like to believe...
"You don't get in and drive a big honking minivan well without ever having turned a key before."

I ABSOLUTELY DID. Started it up in a nice big parking lot and learned to drive in that. Why the hell could you not learn to drive in Camaro? What, are you assuming this kid's going to get the keys and let out on the road by himself?

"You don't know how to drive a manual without actually meshing the clutch and gas together a few hundred times."

So learn in the Camaro in a big parking lot. I learned in my V.

"you're ignoring that not a single person on this earth can jump into something and be at maximum capability instantaneously."

No, that's your failure to comprehend what I'm saying. I never said you could jump into a Camaro SS and master it. You can sure as hell learn on that though.

Your whole logic about inexperience is based on the assumption that this kid is irresponsible and will go nuts and wreck the car. If you want to talk about inexperience he can wreck his first car whether it be a Pinto or a Camaro. The key is being responsible.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 11:18 PM
There are exceptions to every rule, Jon. I'm sure you're a great driver, and you learned on a van and CTS-V. We're not discussing absolutes here- we're talking percentages and probabilities.

The probability of getting AIDS is much higher if you're having sex with prostitutes instead of having sex only with your spouse. That doesn't mean that there's plenty of people who have banged a hooker and not caught AIDS, nor does it mean that people haven't caught AIDS from their spouse. it simply means that the hooker is the highest probability example possible, because you're combining multiple risk factors into a scenario.

Jon
02-19-10, 11:21 PM
There are exceptions to every rule

I absolutely agree with that and I'm not suggesting we hand out Camaros to every 15 year old out there. My whole point from the beginning is that it is absolutely possible for a kid to learn to drive in a performance vehicle.

I'm sure his parents know him a lot better than we do so for us to jump to conclusions is just ridiculous.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 11:28 PM
I didn't really see anyone jump to conclusions. Speaking only for myself, I simply feel that it's a roll of the dice that the parents shouldn't be making. I don't want to get AIDS, so I wouldn't touch a hooker with a borrowed dick. I also don't want my Son to get mangled or dead in a car crash, so I'm not buying him a muscle car for his first vehicle. Neither one of those results is guaranteed to happen if I roll the dice, but I'm certainly upping the risk by doing so.

Life is about evaluating the risk/reward ratio in every scenario. In both examples I've given, the risks far outweigh the rewards.

Brett
02-19-10, 11:30 PM
If we accept the fact that the risk factor rises when a high powered car is in the equation, it must be factored in before multiplying by the additional risk due to youth..

In your model yes, but the reality is both of our risk models are based off of anecdotal data. Somewhere in a computer the true numbers actually exist. Whether youth magnifies stupidity to an exponential amount past the stupidity of a regular driver is data that exists, we just dont know it. Which is why I said earlier we can agree to disagree.

The exhausting thing here is we basically agree on everything here, when measured in percentages; teens crash more than adults, HP cars crash more than non-HP cars, teen drivers in HP cars crash more than anybody. I just don't agree that teen HP drivers crash in a percentage fashion that is out of line with the established baseline percentages of other groups.

I would have no problem buying my son a fast car, but I only have a daughter....not sure what I would buy her...2020 SRX maybe?

Brett
02-19-10, 11:33 PM
My whole point from the beginning is that it is absolutely possible for a kid to learn to drive in a performance vehicle..

and thats where I started with this. Though it was never specifically said the tone of this thread was kid + HP = Crash, I dont agree with that.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 11:35 PM
teens crash more than adults, HP cars crash more than non-HP cars, teen drivers in HP cars crash more than anybody

So.........we agree. Teen drivers in high performance cars crash more than anybody, therefore by putting your teenager in a high performance car, you are voluntarily placing them in a precarious situation and are increasing their risk of harming themselves and others.

Irresponsible. Parents who do this type of thing are doing it out of a selfish desire to earn cool points with their kids, or to live vicariously through them and get them the muscle car that their own parents were smart enough NOT to let them have.

Brett
02-19-10, 11:43 PM
therefore by putting your teenager in a high performance car, you are voluntarily placing them in a precarious situation and are increasing their risk of harming themselves and others.

do we know at what rate HP cars are crashed by teens vs non-HP cars? Is it double, triple, 1%, 5% more? We dont know, which is something I have been stressing, we are both making all these numbers up. If a HP car is 5% more likely to be wrecked I would not call that precarious, perhaps more dangerous, less safe, risky, riskier.

The Tony Show
02-19-10, 11:54 PM
In order to obtain the data you want, we'd need to know not only how many teens are involved in crashes and what kind of car they were in, but also the registration data that tells us what kind of car is driven by all the teens in the same area the first two data points come from. That would be hard for a civilian to gather and be accurate.

It's stands to reason that this data has been analyzed in detail by Insurance companies, which is why while the insurance for teens with a normal car is higher than an adult's, it is outrageously higher (by order of magnitude) for teens with sports cars compared to adults with sports cars.

Brett
02-19-10, 11:57 PM
but is outrageously higher (by order of magnitude) for teens with sports cars compared to adults with sports cars.

that is the question I have. No doubt it would be higher but is it actually skewed in that way?

orconn
02-20-10, 12:10 AM
What about putting kids in huge, powerful SUVs to supposedly protect them in case of a crash? I have certainly seen a lot of that, particularly with girls.

The Tony Show
02-20-10, 12:10 AM
One of the guys I work with just added his kid to his insurance. He had an STS, but traded it for a new Corvette, and his insurance increased $2,000 a year. When he called the insurance company to find out what the hell the deal was, they told him that it was going up $300 per year for him, but $1,700 for the kid,

To put that in perspective, the initial hit to his insurance was only about a grand a year for the kid, meaning that the insurance company has data that leads them to charge almost double for a 17 year old in a Corvette versus a 17 year old in an STS.

thebigjimsho
02-20-10, 12:32 AM
Your whole logic about inexperience is based on the assumption that this kid is irresponsible and will go nuts and wreck the car. If you want to talk about inexperience he can wreck his first car whether it be a Pinto or a Camaro. The key is being responsible.
You don't get it. You don't read, do you. Look at my past posts. There is NO assumption. The kid I know seems to be very responsible. Yet his friend is dead. STOP ignoring that post. GET IT?


POWERFUL CARS TEMPT YOU TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE.

thebigjimsho
02-20-10, 12:34 AM
My whole point from the beginning is that it is absolutely possible for a kid to learn to drive in a performance vehicle.

I'm sure his parents know him a lot better than we do so for us to jump to conclusions is just ridiculous.
I NEVER said it wasn't possible. NEVER. I said it's possible for any reasonable kid to get caught up and misuse the power. Power corrupts. To assume a 15yo kid will never let it is what's ridiculous.

Jon
02-20-10, 12:36 AM
You don't get it. You don't read, do you. Look at my past posts. There is NO assumption. The kid I know seems to be very responsible. Yet his friend is dead. STOP ignoring that post. GET IT?


POWERFUL CARS TEMPT YOU TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE.
So because one guy you know had that happen it automatically means the rest are like that. Ok.

The Tony Show
02-20-10, 01:30 AM
Oh dear lord, Jon. He never said "every" kid is like that- he just pointed to a real world example that backs up his point.

No one here is talking in absolutes.

bjv
02-20-10, 01:43 AM
When I was 16 my dad bought me a 427 Corvette, and I survived!

The Tony Show
02-20-10, 10:44 AM
http://www.polkout.com/picardfacepalm.jpg

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
02-20-10, 11:06 AM
The percentages don't matter.

It's very simple:

Inexperienced drivers are more likely to have accidents - hence higher insurance premiums. They have a mathematical model and a load of statistics to back up their model. Inexperienced drivers are statistically more likely to have an accident.

High power cars get you into trouble way quicker than a low power car. If you floor it in a 90hp FWD Civic coming out of a bend in the wet not a lot happens. If you do the same in a high torque RWD car you're going to swap ends. A higher HP car is more likely to be involved in an accident, hence insurance on a higher HP car costs more. Again the insurance statistics show you are more likely to have an accident in one.

Now, combine the lack of experience at driving (period) with the high power car, throw in male teen hormones and it should be obvious to anyone that we have discovered the formula for the highest chance of an accident. It doesn't mean this kid will have an accident, but his odds of doing so are higher than an older, experienced driver in the same car.

You can play russian Roulette with a gun with 5 bullets and one empty chamber and you are more likely to blow your head off than playing the same game with 1 bullet and 5 empty chambers. It's all about odds. The more you stack the odds (in this case age, inexperience, high power) the greater the chance of an accident.

No-one is saying he *will* have an accident, but he is *more likely* to have one in that car than the Civic.

Hopefully he will beat the odds. But I do think it's a bit irresponsible of his parents to buy him that type of car when he lacks experience and being a teen male, probably self control. It's all good and well to say in America you can do whatever you want, but how would you feel if someone you know was killed by this kid who was trying to show off to friends and lost control of that beat coming out of a bend? Freedom is great, the less laws and rules the better, but the only way that is going to work is if people can apply some common sense. And this isn't it.

Stingroo
02-20-10, 11:47 AM
^ Thank you, sir.

:lock:?

concorso
02-20-10, 01:51 PM
The percentages don't matter.

It's very simple:

Inexperienced drivers are more likely to have accidents - hence higher insurance premiums. They have a mathematical model and a load of statistics to back up their model. Inexperienced drivers are statistically more likely to have an accident.

High power cars get you into trouble way quicker than a low power car. If you floor it in a 90hp FWD Civic coming out of a bend in the wet not a lot happens. If you do the same in a high torque RWD car you're going to swap ends. A higher HP car is more likely to be involved in an accident, hence insurance on a higher HP car costs more. Again the insurance statistics show you are more likely to have an accident in one.

Now, combine the lack of experience at driving (period) with the high power car, throw in male teen hormones and it should be obvious to anyone that we have discovered the formula for the highest chance of an accident. It doesn't mean this kid will have an accident, but his odds of doing so are higher than an older, experienced driver in the same car.

You can play russian Roulette with a gun with 5 bullets and one empty chamber and you are more likely to blow your head off than playing the same game with 1 bullet and 5 empty chambers. It's all about odds. The more you stack the odds (in this case age, inexperience, high power) the greater the chance of an accident.

No-one is saying he *will* have an accident, but he is *more likely* to have one in that car than the Civic.

Hopefully he will beat the odds. But I do think it's a bit irresponsible of his parents to buy him that type of car when he lacks experience and being a teen male, probably self control. It's all good and well to say in America you can do whatever you want, but how would you feel if someone you know was killed by this kid who was trying to show off to friends and lost control of that beat coming out of a bend? Freedom is great, the less laws and rules the better, but the only way that is going to work is if people can apply some common sense. And this isn't it.Great discussion, and great post!

I find it oddly amusing that its illegal to drink under the age of 21, but perfectly fine to drive a 400 hp sports car at 16.

V-Eight
02-20-10, 02:31 PM
Great discussion, and great post!

I find it oddly amusing that its illegal to drink under the age of 21, but perfectly fine to drive a 400 hp sports car at 16.

We get to drink at 18 up here :alchi: , but that is certainly a good point.

The Tony Show
02-20-10, 03:28 PM
Great post concorso, but we've been saying it for 4 pages and it still doesn't seem to sink in.

itschrome
02-20-10, 03:55 PM
I'd like to jump in for one moment and say as a passive observer I am more shocked at how many times the same arguments can be repeated and reworded than i am about some people giving their 16yr a 400hp camaro. I am truly surprised and in awe here guys... thats all.. carry on.

Jon
02-22-10, 04:40 PM
Oh dear lord, Jon. He never said "every" kid is like that- he just pointed to a real world example that backs up his point.

No one here is talking in absolutes.
So what the hell is his point? If he and you acknowledge that not every kid is going to be retarded, what the fvck is the point of even posting all that crap in this thread? This post was about that particular kid and the Camaro.

nickc50310
02-22-10, 05:19 PM
16 year old males are the most expensive drivers to insure because statistically they crash vehicles more then ANY other age or gender driver. You may be the exception to the rule, but I sure wasn't. I was wild when I was 16 and willing to take reckless chances at every turn. A 400hp, 40k car, stick shift, paired with the need to show off for the girls and rowdy friends.....what could possibly go wrong?

I'm happy for the kid too. I bet he's a good kid and deserves it. It's a big responsibility and I hope he takes care of the car and stays safe. :)


I agree with this. Im just glad I made it out without anything bad happening.

Prime example:
http://www.theiowachannel.com/news/4280351/detail.html

billc83
02-22-10, 08:05 PM
Lucky kid. I really hope he doesn't get in an accident.

My insurance wouldn't even COVER me for anything they specified as a "sports car."

Mustang? Not till you're 25, kid.
Even a wimpy V-6? It's still a Mustang, and that's a sports car. Have a good day.

Hence my gravitation to luxury cars.

Night Wolf
02-23-10, 07:01 PM
I do stupid things in an old 135hp 5spd BMW, I consider myself better then the average driver to handle/control a vehicle in critical situations.

When I was 16 I had my '93 Coupe DeVille, 200hp and auto. I did stupid things in it, but from what I could see, was (a very good bit) more responsible then others my age. Part of it was just me being myself, part of it may have been because it was not a car designed for performance. I pushed the Caddy to it's limits. A more capable car means pushing the limits further.

If I had the same old 135hp BMW when I was 16, I'm quite sure I would have gotten (more) speeding tickets, done (more) stupid things and possibly wrecked it.

If I had a 400hp Camaro SS right now, I'd do stupid things in it and push it to the limit, around turns and top speed. If I had a 400hp Camaro SS when I was 16 I would probably do the same, but without the experience I've gained over the years to know how to control a vehicle.

Part of that is the reason why I don't own a crotch rocket, or want a high powered car. It's not that I couldn't control it or would wreck it, it's that I know myself, and how I push all my vehicles to the limits, and a high powered car would be a constant tease.

Atleast on public roads. It took a while, but I finally realized that powerful engines aren't everything in cars, I now enjoy the entire driving experience as a whole. My old 4cyl BMW already accelerates plenty fast enough in traffic, to pass others and to merge on the interstate. It'll make use of 90% of it's 150-mph speedometer.

So with my old 135hp BMW accelerating plenty fast enough in any public situation I've run into, and capable of going nearly twice the highest posted speed limit of any roads I travel on (70mph), I see another question at hand:

What is the purpose of a 400hp Camaro SS that is only driven on public roads?

orconn
02-23-10, 08:56 PM
I have also had thoughts about the purpose and reason behind the ownership of cars whose horsepower and performance make them capable of speeds that are way over the legal limits by a margin of two or threes what is permitted on public roads any where in the world except the German Autobahn. I've come to the opinion that the desire for ownership of these cars is similar to women's desire for more and more expensive jewelry. It is motivated by the competitive pride in out doing one's neighbor. The guy who will never be in a position to use even a mid percentage of Mercedes AMG's performance, not to mention a Lamborghini's, but is willing to put up with the trade offs that these performance levels require, is when all is said and done motivated by the pride of ownership and the one upmanship that it provides. However, I don't doubt that there will always be a market for these ego expanding trinkets whether it be cars, jewels or houses.

1964CoupeDeville
02-24-10, 04:22 AM
He should have bought his own first car like me, it's a learning experience. My beautiful golden caddy has brought me many memories and windows into the past.

concorso
02-24-10, 10:38 PM
He should have bought his own first car like me, it's a learning experience. My beautiful golden caddy has brought me many memories and windows into the past....Not nearly as many as his Camaro will provide for him.

V-Eight
02-24-10, 10:41 PM
He should have bought his own first car like me, it's a learning experience. My beautiful golden caddy has brought me many memories and windows into the past.

Really? Then why were you complaining and saying you were going to sell it when some chroming took longer than expected?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-24-10, 10:46 PM
What a ***** magnet. My god that kids gonna get a lot of ass.

Kick94sts
02-24-10, 10:58 PM
What a ***** magnet. My god that kids gonna get a lot of ass.

:histeric: agreed!!!

V-Eight
02-24-10, 11:06 PM
I'm not following...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-24-10, 11:10 PM
What girl his age wouldn't strip their panties for that Camaro? Shit, now I wish I had that Camaro!

V-Eight
02-24-10, 11:38 PM
Ohhh, thought you were talking about something else. I got ya lol.

Destroyer
02-24-10, 11:57 PM
What girl his age wouldn't strip their panties for that Camaro? A self respecting one? I know, they are few and far in between. Still, if you need a car to get girls.......................:banghead:

eyekandyboats.inc
02-25-10, 12:44 AM
baby, i got big back seats!.
buddies camaro, you cant even do reverse cowgirl in the front seats

1964CoupeDeville
02-25-10, 04:20 AM
...Not nearly as many as his Camaro will provide for him.

I've already got 1 good time in the car with the ladies since I got it back. I think I'm ahead of him. Remember, to the ignorant my car is a "pimpmobile"

itschrome
02-25-10, 04:43 AM
I think I'm ahead of him. Remember, to the ignorant my car is a "pimpmobile"

well to be fair, it is.. haha

1964CoupeDeville
02-25-10, 05:04 AM
well to be fair, it is.. haha

Naw, its still part of the tail fin era.

ben.gators
02-28-10, 06:36 AM
Good point Chud, this boy is going to have a very enjoyable time on rear seats of Camaro:))
I guess as was said here before, the family just wanted to do something very different from their neighbors, to be unique! But this uniqueness can spoil their sun and put his life in danger!

When I was 16, I can remember that I had sinked in responsibilities and problems of life! and even having a junk car for myself was a dream! I purchased my own car by my own money couple of years later....

notld67
02-28-10, 12:35 PM
I remember back in High School a kid I kinda knew his parents bought him a brand new 2000 WS6 t/a for his Bday, he wrecked it within 3 months. Then they bought him another one.

MrSinatra
03-06-10, 02:43 AM
What's the reason behind buying a car for a kid with that much horsepower? I make due with my 150 horses.

ben.gators
03-28-10, 06:16 AM
Wandering around in Ebay, I saw this Camaro SS2, which is totaled at 599 miles!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REPAIRABLE-REBUILDABLE-SALVAGE-LOT-DRIVES-6-SPEED-EZ_W0QQitemZ250604732597QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars _Trucks?hash=item3a5934c0b5

For some reason it reminds me this topic......