: Letter to the Editor of Motor Trend



RWFJR
02-07-10, 01:35 PM
Re: Cage Fight...Round III March 2010 pg 92.

I read your article with some certain disagreement. Having been a proud and very happy CTS V2 owner for the past 10 months, I know and enjoy this car very much. Having never driven a Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, I read this article with some interest. It appears that in the performance category, you rate both cars almost equal. In the other categories you rate the E63 “slightly” higher or “somewhat” better.

Mr. Loh emphasized that “Regular readers know that return on the dollar is a critical component in all our comparison-test verdicts”. Do you really want your readers to believe that slightly higher is worth $25,000.00?

Robert “Bob” W. Fisher, Jr.
St. Petersburg, FL

CTSVeee
02-07-10, 01:46 PM
I read this article too and was quite surprised by the outcome. I see E63's all over the place down here and I don't think anything the car does or has is worth 25k more than what I have parked in my garage. Thus, I let my purchase do my talking.

Nutz
02-07-10, 02:34 PM
Motor Trend is like Playboy or Maxim, best to just keep in the potty just for the pics.

commander112
02-07-10, 02:39 PM
Don't get too excited. ALL of the mags show the newest, most heavily advertised car with the best ratings. I have a friend that is very high up in the marketing department for one of the big three and have been told flat out that if you follow the $$$ you will see how the reviews read. Think about it, you are a writer for one of these magazines and you piss off an advertiser and they take the issue to the publisher it would not be good for the long term outlook on your career.

Nine Ball
02-07-10, 03:10 PM
Acceleration comparison wasn't equal at all. The V trap speed in the quarter-mile was 3 mph faster. 3 mph is an ass-whipping at that speed, easily 3+ car lengths in a roll race. In other words, even with the AMG's fancy 7-speed automatic trans they praise with its ultra-quick shifting, the AMG would still get walked by the low tech 6-speed automatic equipped V on the highway. A 6-spd manual V would really hurt one's feelings from a highway punch.

neuronbob
02-07-10, 04:21 PM
I read the article and thought, "meh". That extra $25g I didn't spend will ensure my kid goes to Stanford rather than ensuring that all my neighbors know I can afford ein Deutsches Auto.

Makes you wonder what they think a value is.

SlvrBullIT
02-07-10, 04:45 PM
25G... that's like for the first year at Stanford...right? lol Good to know at least you are looking out for your kids and not "ihr ego".

wfo
02-07-10, 05:29 PM
$25K might get you rent for housing in and around the Palo Alto area of Standford these days....maybe. Nonetheless, the V rocks an the dollar to dollar value in performance and ownership experience IMHO exceeds that of MT review.

RWFJR
02-07-10, 05:39 PM
Motor Trend is like Playboy or Maxim, best to just keep in the potty just for the pics.

That's just where I read it!!!

RWFJR
02-07-10, 05:41 PM
Don't get too excited. ALL of the mags show the newest, most heavily advertised car with the best ratings. I have a friend that is very high up in the marketing department for one of the big three and have been told flat out that if you follow the $$$ you will see how the reviews read. Think about it, you are a writer for one of these magazines and you piss off an advertiser and they take the issue to the publisher it would not be good for the long term outlook on your career.

10-4 and Roger that!!!

dqw1
02-07-10, 06:54 PM
I noticed when the V was on top, Cadillac ran a lot V advertisements in all the tops mags. I think the V earned it's praise but I also believe the mags have to follow the money. It's a shame that money and euro bias can just about give you a win for a little while.

way2evil1
02-07-10, 08:13 PM
If you have never owned an AMG you cannot comment on the experience, only the price.

thebigjimsho
02-07-10, 11:21 PM
If you have never owned an AMG you cannot comment on the experience, only the price.
And since the price has a factor on the overall experience, I'd say you can...

tswrod
02-08-10, 01:13 AM
Unreal. $25 grr. At $3.00 a gallon, and 20,000 miles a year - even at 15 mpg (which we do better) - equals ---- more than SIX years of free gas! MB is so second best.

Gary Wells
02-08-10, 05:40 AM
If you have never owned an AMG you cannot comment on the experience, only the price.
This is Cadillac country, sure we can, and will.

way2evil1
02-08-10, 06:10 AM
This is Cadillac country, sure we can, and will.
Why so arrogant?

Gary Wells
02-08-10, 07:27 AM
I'm far from arrogant. Actually, but I think what you read on here regarding a dedicated *car* froum regarding another car, especially big $$ offshore, is pretty typical and would not be any different if you were reading about Caddys on the MB World forum. People do fail to realize that in the media world, today's write-up & reviews favor the advertisers that spend the most that have the newest on the block.

RWFJR
02-08-10, 08:42 AM
If you have never owned an AMG you cannot comment on the experience, only the price.

Which is exactly what I did...

Gotham CTS-V
02-08-10, 08:50 AM
Ex-MB/AMG driver here. MB has been hit or miss for me. Certainly better than BMW M though.

I like the V a lot. Maybe if I had money to blow, I would have chosen the E63 over the CTS-V for looks and brand image...but the V is still the faster car and that 3mph trap difference says A LOT. I also like the modding abilities of the V because of the supercharged motor. I was also a huge fan of the 55 Kompressor AMG cars because of this.

E63 is a GREAT car, looks very modern, and seems like its much more of a driver's car than the previous AMG models. However; it's still $25k over the price of the V. That's a substantial difference and I think it's an honor for the V to be compared to such a high price car, nontheless actually tie or beat it in performance.

JFJr
02-08-10, 10:37 AM
I'm far from arrogant. Actually, but I think what you read on here regarding a dedicated *car* froum regarding another car, especially big $$ offshore, is pretty typical and would not be any different if you were reading about Caddys on the MB World forum. People do fail to realize that in the media world, today's write-up & reviews favor the advertisers that spend the most that have the newest on the block.Well said, Gary. I guess some people don't like to be reminded that they wasted their money.

neuronbob
02-08-10, 11:27 AM
E63 is a GREAT car, looks very modern, and seems like its much more of a driver's car than the previous AMG models. However; it's still $25k over the price of the V. That's a substantial difference and I think it's an honor for the V to be compared to such a high price car, nontheless actually tie or beat it in performance.

Well-said. I think the E63 is absolutely droolworthy and a wonderful car. :drool: I don't think anyone is saying that it's not. I just didn't want to pay the price of entry. In fact, I'd love to test-drive one just to have the experience.....then go back to driving my V.

way2evil1
02-08-10, 09:29 PM
Well said, Gary. I guess some people don't like to be reminded that they wasted their money.

Wasted their money? That is pure arrogance.

The MB forum is extremely open minded. Allow me to remind you that you are not driving a Mercedes. You are driving a Cadillac. They are two different cars. Even though the V is faster than the AMG, they are two different cars. The build quality is different, the ride is different, the noise is different. If you feel that someone is wasting their money by purchasing a different car than you, feel free to do so. But be prepared to be argued with. :thepan:

Jpjr
02-08-10, 09:33 PM
Well-said. I think the E63 is absolutely droolworthy and a wonderful car. :drool: I don't think anyone is saying that it's not. I just didn't want to pay the price of entry. In fact, I'd love to test-drive one just to have the experience.....then go back to driving my V.

Yes I keep posting again and again on price. Does anyone here really believe that adding 25k to the Caddy sticker would not result in a total waxing of the Merc?

In the real world, a guy with $60k to spend is test driving a V and an E550. Those are his real choices. Otherwise, they should start waving in Bentleys and Ashtons into the comparos.

All I can say is that Consumer Reports is learning the hard way right now what happens when you don't rate cars objectively. Cough... auto-recommend ratings for Toyota... cough.

Gary Wells
02-08-10, 09:52 PM
OK, let me put my end of this to bed. On many posts on this forum I have previously posted that I have always wanted a BMW or a Merc. Not just any BMW, and not just any Merc. I think that as far as body styles go, I think that the BMW740i, not the 740L, is one of the most beautiful body styles on the road for a sedan. And as far as Merc sedans go, I think that the S55 and / or S500 / S600, whatever the heck body style that is / was, is also one of the most beautiful sedan body styles on the road. After studying forums, reported issues, costs, first year loss, and resale values, I had no choice but to come to my senses. I do not begrudge anyone who owns, buys or wants one. Just wasn't in the cards for me. And I do love my Cad, even with it's imperfections, and heaven knows that it has its share of those. God Bless turbo Buicks and CTS-V's, supercharged ones, of course.

Luna.
02-08-10, 10:36 PM
Re: Cage Fight...Round III March 2010 pg 92.

I read your article with some certain disagreement. Having been a proud and very happy CTS V2 owner for the past 10 months, I know and enjoy this car very much. Having never driven a Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, I read this article with some interest. It appears that in the performance category, you rate both cars almost equal. In the other categories you rate the E63 “slightly” higher or “somewhat” better.

Mr. Loh emphasized that “Regular readers know that return on the dollar is a critical component in all our comparison-test verdicts”. Do you really want your readers to believe that slightly higher is worth $25,000.00?

Robert “Bob” W. Fisher, Jr.
St. Petersburg, FL

Clearly there is a disconnect there that's very strange...

The V is clearly the better buy in terms of bang for your buck

GM-4-LIFE
02-09-10, 05:29 PM
I have been through 4 brand new Mercedes vehicles within a 2 year period of time because my wife wanted them, but after we went through nothing but problems with their quality and high cost to maintain them, we went back to GM vehicles. The problems that we had with Mercedes vehicles made owning an American made GM vehicle a pleasure.

Money isn't the issue, but quality that plagues Mercedes is why I would NEVER go back to the krauts!

For the record, I never left GM. We just had Mercedes vehicles at the same time as the GM vehicles we owned at the time. I learned my lesson and will never do that again!

SG

Jpjr
02-10-10, 09:19 PM
I'm telling you guys, the quality issue is 99% perception. ALL cars have imperfections. It's just that we've been trained to disregard them for German and Japanese cars and highlight them for American cars. The domestics allowed this to happen from years of shoddy production, but today the gap is closed and I would even say in the case of Ford the pendulum has swung completely back to the domestics.

I say this as others have said because I drive a 2010 E550 quite frequently and it has its share of problems just the Caddy.

Unfortunately I think the worst offenders as far as perpetuating these quality issues are the car rags. As I posted before Consumer Reports is taking a credibility BEATING over Toyota right now. All of their cars were "auto-recommended" without any deep dive on quality or reliability. That media bias continues to affect perception but as we are seeing it just builds toward an ensuring quality explosion like we are witnessing at Toyota today. Time to pay the piper.

jimbo1320
02-10-10, 09:53 PM
Soo when the next generation BMW M5 rolls around will we be having this same conversation? Certainly BMW will up the anti just enough to lay down faster 1/4 mile, lap times etc. than the currant "V". And it will cost $25G more than the V, so here we are again.

So what will GM do in 2012 for the "V", humm. With the LSA 6.2 (556hp) going into the Z-28 Comaro next year, exclusivity to the "V" will be lost, Booo. At about $25 grand less to boot.

So are we looking at a 600HP "V". Will the coupe platform be expanded to a drop top? I am for one excited about the possibilities.

Or will GM do what they have done in the past. Get the line on a roll and drop it due to low sales numbers.

dmp
02-10-10, 10:28 PM
Some article I read said that the "AMG was like having two cars (luxury and performance) for the price of two." Outside of price and maintenance costs, etc., the CTS-V generally goes unnoticed in public. If you want to draw attention to yourself, the AMG or a BMW M far more effective. Only car guys (and gals) seem to notice the CTS-V. The CTS-V is really more in line with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" approach. In this case, you can use the big stick to spank most of the other performance sedans...

thebigjimsho
02-10-10, 11:19 PM
Soo when the next generation BMW M5 rolls around will we be having this same conversation? Certainly BMW will up the anti just enough to lay down faster 1/4 mile, lap times etc. than the currant "V". And it will cost $25G more than the V, so here we are again.

So what will GM do in 2012 for the "V", humm. With the LSA 6.2 (556hp) going into the Z-28 Comaro next year, exclusivity to the "V" will be lost, Booo. At about $25 grand less to boot.

So are we looking at a 600HP "V". Will the coupe platform be expanded to a drop top? I am for one excited about the possibilities.

Or will GM do what they have done in the past. Get the line on a roll and drop it due to low sales numbers.
When OldRoadDawg invited me to the Cadillac Driving Lab event when we drove the V2 at Monticello, we got to talk to one of the engineers who says the improvements to the new V would be more in weight reduction and improving handling than trying to squeeze more power.

idoitforv
02-11-10, 12:00 AM
Wasted their money? That is pure arrogance.

The MB forum is extremely open minded. Allow me to remind you that you are not driving a Mercedes. You are driving a Cadillac.

I own a 2010 E-350 and i use to own a 05 CTS-V and will get a V2 when I get back from Afghanistan, I'm on the MB forum and "extremely open minded" is not how I would discribe them: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212/333631-video-e63-amg-vs-cadillac-cts-v.html. In case you could'nt tell my screen name is jinx420hat over there... Real open minded :thumbsup:

UnsafeAtAnySpd
02-11-10, 12:04 AM
When OldRoadDawg invited me to the Cadillac Driving Lab event when we drove the V2 at Monticello, we got to talk to one of the engineers who says the improvements to the new V would be more in weight reduction and improving handling than trying to squeeze more power.

That'd be great! Adding more power aftermarket isn't that hard after all.

thebigjimsho
02-11-10, 12:17 AM
That'd be great! Adding more power aftermarket isn't that hard after all.
However, this was before they closed down the performance division so who knows what they'll do, if anything...

GMX322V S/C
02-11-10, 02:28 AM
...we got to talk to one of the engineers who says the improvements to the new V would be more in weight reduction and improving handling than trying to squeeze more power.Bravo, that's the way to go--but I don't expect it'll be cheap, either to build or repair (which will affect insurance). Hydroforming and other advanced manufacturing techniques can only take you so far; at some point, more components will need to be made from lightweight materials such as aluminum (like the hood), magnesium, and carbon-fiber and they will either be more expensive to produce or more expensive to repair--or both. With the next M5 heading well north of 100K, hopefully GM will be able to maintain the "value gap."

BacDoc
02-11-10, 08:17 AM
Re: Cage Fight...Round III March 2010 pg 92.

I read your article with some certain disagreement. Having been a proud and very happy CTS V2 owner for the past 10 months, I know and enjoy this car very much. Having never driven a Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, I read this article with some interest. It appears that in the performance category, you rate both cars almost equal. In the other categories you rate the E63 “slightly” higher or “somewhat” better.

Mr. Loh emphasized that “Regular readers know that return on the dollar is a critical component in all our comparison-test verdicts”. Do you really want your readers to believe that slightly higher is worth $25,000.00?

Robert “Bob” W. Fisher, Jr.
St. Petersburg, FL

Dear Bob,

Apparently this was the first Motor Trend comparo you've read in a long time. Check out last months C&D comparo where the Golf GTI got slaughtered by the MazdaSpeed3 in every category and yet somehow won. And I encourage you to look at every M3 review/comparo in the past 5-7 years for mind boggling bias.

Yours Truly,
BacDoc

thebigjimsho
02-11-10, 08:24 AM
Dear Bob,

Apparently this was the first Motor Trend comparo you've read in a long time. Check out last months C&D comparo where the Golf GTI got slaughtered by the MazdaSpeed3 in every category and yet somehow won. And I encourage you to look at every M3 review/comparo in the past 5-7 years for mind boggling bias.

Yours Truly,
BacDoc
Come on. If I had to live with a car, I'd rather live with a GTI than a Mazdaspeed 3. I just would. Performance-wise, the 3 was superior, but the VW is a more luxurious, more comfortable ride and is fun to drive without being high strung.

As for the M3 and 3 series, they are EXCEPTIONAL automobiles. And they picked an S4 against a 335i in the last comparo.

Sounds like you have the mind boggling bias...

way2evil1
02-11-10, 08:49 AM
I own a 2010 E-350 and i use to own a 05 CTS-V and will get a V2 when I get back from Afghanistan, I'm on the MB forum and "extremely open minded" is not how I would discribe them: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212/333631-video-e63-amg-vs-cadillac-cts-v.html. In case you could'nt tell my screen name is jinx420hat over there... Real open minded :thumbsup:

Dont judge the board by two noob members. Read this thread
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/334981-e55-amg-vs-modded-09-cts-v.html

BeagleBrains
02-11-10, 12:16 PM
Wasted their money? That is pure arrogance.

The MB forum is extremely open minded. Allow me to remind you that .... driving a Mercedes. .. ... driving a Cadillac. = two different cars. Even though .. build quality is different, the ride is different, ... noise is different. ...purchasing a different car, feel free to do so.
I chose to apply the Mercedes extra price of admission to add a new Corvette to my Garage Fleet. Arrogance - NO! Extremely happy with the choice :cloud9: - YES!

liqidvenom
02-11-10, 01:35 PM
And since the price has a factor on the overall experience, I'd say you can...

thats like me commenting on what its like to own a f430 just because it costs more.

liqidvenom
02-11-10, 02:28 PM
When OldRoadDawg invited me to the Cadillac Driving Lab event when we drove the V2 at Monticello, we got to talk to one of the engineers who says the improvements to the new V would be more in weight reduction and improving handling than trying to squeeze more power.

this would be the best way to make the v better, get it under 4k at least.



Well said, Gary. I guess some people don't like to be reminded that they wasted their money.

not sure how its a waste of money.



Yes I keep posting again and again on price. Does anyone here really believe that adding 25k to the Caddy sticker would not result in a total waxing of the Merc?

In the real world, a guy with $60k to spend is test driving a V and an E550. Those are his real choices. Otherwise, they should start waving in Bentleys and Ashtons into the comparos.

All I can say is that Consumer Reports is learning the hard way right now what happens when you don't rate cars objectively. Cough... auto-recommend ratings for Toyota... cough.

you could add 50k to the price of a cts and most merc owners wont look twice at it. I mean a cts cant out sell imports even here on its own home court. that says alot for what people are buying and why. is it a knock against the cts... no, but it has an up hill battle getting most merc buyers to pass over bmw/audi/jag to buy the cts.

and why would a person cross shop a v with a E550? and entry luxo car with a mid level one? the cts and the v is cross shopped with other entry luxo sedans from germany ( 3/c/a4) and their performance versions. the m5/e63 talk comes up only due to a performance relevance.

thebigjimsho
02-11-10, 05:18 PM
you could add 50k to the price of a cts and most merc owners wont look twice at it. I mean a cts cant out sell imports even here on its own home court. that says alot for what people are buying and why. is it a knock against the cts... no, but it has an up hill battle getting most merc buyers to pass over bmw/audi/jag to buy the cts.

and why would a person cross shop a v with a E550? and entry luxo car with a mid level one? the cts and the v is cross shopped with other entry luxo sedans from germany ( 3/c/a4) and their performance versions. the m5/e63 talk comes up only due to a performance relevance.
I really don't understand why every car has to directly compare with another or else it's a failure. There is just as much reason someone would cross shop a CTS to a 5 Series as a 3 Series. Same for C class and E class. There isn't a whole lot in the way of luxury features that an E63 or M5 or XF-R has over a CTS-V. There just isn't.

way2evil1
02-11-10, 06:27 PM
I really don't understand why every car has to directly compare with another or else it's a failure. There is just as much reason someone would cross shop a CTS to a 5 Series as a 3 Series. Same for C class and E class. There isn't a whole lot in the way of luxury features that an E63 or M5 or XF-R has over a CTS-V. There just isn't.

Features and the quality of those features differ greatly.

thebigjimsho
02-11-10, 10:05 PM
Features and the quality of those features differ greatly.
yeah, yeah, we know. Mercedes are the gods of the universe....

liqidvenom
02-12-10, 12:29 AM
I really don't understand why every car has to directly compare with another or else it's a failure. There is just as much reason someone would cross shop a CTS to a 5 Series as a 3 Series. Same for C class and E class. There isn't a whole lot in the way of luxury features that an E63 or M5 or XF-R has over a CTS-V. There just isn't.

i have no idea what options that a cts-v offers. but since its compared with a m5/e63 i will assume it has the following at least:
1) radar guided cruise control
2) active bladders in the seats
3) lane departure warning systems
4) the ability to warn a driver that they are loosing focus and falling asleep
5) night vision
6) alcantara
7) head lights the turn to light up around a bend
8) rear view camera
9) leather wrapped interior ( such as the dash, etc)
10) performance driving schools included with purchase


now maybe the V has all of those options and many more, but if i recall from what i saw last year a v is optioned out more like a true dance partner with the entry luxo performance vehicle, yet it has the power of a middle level luxo vehicle. i'm sure there are many options a v would offer that those possibly wont also.


look at it like this, if a v had the same performance numbers as a m3, would people still say its a better buy then a m5? or is it claimed to be a better buy then a m5 just due to performance alone? because many people still buy other sports cars even though a z06 walks all over them. point is that there is alot more to owning a vehicle to just being the fastest.

RapidRob
02-12-10, 06:31 PM
Features and the quality of those features differ greatly.

Now the above statement sounds, "arrogant", IMO ... ! Jeeze.:bigroll:

Rob

lmcgrew79
02-12-10, 08:44 PM
I wonder when bmw and mercedes are gonna go with touch screen nav. I cant vouch for bmw, but mercedes sat/nav is horrible.

thebigjimsho
02-12-10, 09:42 PM
I wonder when bmw and mercedes are gonna go with touch screen nav. I cant vouch for bmw, but mercedes sat/nav is horrible.
It's because they spent all their engineering $$ into inflating bags under your ass and waking you up if you drift off. Neither is needed in the V, of course...

BeagleBrains
02-13-10, 01:14 PM
... .options that a cts-v offers. but since its compared with ... .. assume . ... the following at least:
1) radar guided cruise.. 2) active ... seats 3) lane warning ..
4) ability to warn a driver ..
5) night vision 6) alcantara 7) head lights that turn .. 8) rear view camera
9) leather wrapped ( such as .. ., etc)
10) performance driving schools included with purchase
now maybe ..
People enamored with the concept of "Import" don't buy Cadillacs.
OPTIONS seem to be an alternative to Responsible Driver.
AUTO WEEK magazine has an ongoing agenda to push for true Driver Education that actually teaches and practices driving, setting a high standard requirement to actually qualify a skilled operator prior to getting behind the wheel. There is a practical option!

liqidvenom
02-13-10, 03:02 PM
It's because they spent all their engineering $$ into inflating bags under your ass and waking you up if you drift off. Neither is needed in the V, of course...

most people of bmw/merc buying age arent big on touching the screen of their phones let alone of their radios. cadillac has to find ways to generate buzz to get younger and more tech savy buyers.

the next audi/bmw head units will be something to awe at. i no longer work at merc so i dunno what they are going to bring out.


People enamored with the concept of "Import" don't buy Cadillacs.
OPTIONS seem to be an alternative to Responsible Driver.
AUTO WEEK magazine has an ongoing agenda to push for true Driver Education that actually teaches and practices driving, setting a high standard requirement to actually qualify a skilled operator prior to getting behind the wheel. There is a practical option!

abs, traction control, seat belts were all options in one time. same as navi, hard drives, heated seats. same as disc brakes, power steering, power assisted brakes.

all are things which make a persons time in their car safer, more productive and more enjoyable. your excuse does nothing to push cadillac higher in luxo sales. you must not be aware of the sheer difference in total yearly sales bmw has over cadillac in the united states.

cadillac needs a great smaller rwd vehicle, some verts, and some full size luxo vehicles to go toe to toe with the mid level and high level sedans. and bring the cts back in line size and weight wise with its true price competitors.

BeagleBrains
02-14-10, 01:07 PM
"all are things which make a person's time .. .... . safer, more productive and more enjoyable. your excuse does nothing to push cadillac higher in luxo sales. you must not be aware of the sheer difference in total yearly sales bmw has over cadillac in the united states.'
Fully aware, especially noting that the original CTS V was advertised as a BMW competitor (sales and performance) when introduced. :suspense:Cadi recognized their need to build cars of the ilk that would put them in the direct path of a Bimmer buyer's perspective. Cadillac's demographic has changed dramatically entirely for that purpose. GM's statement addressed that these goals were outside of their previous goals.
Productivity does not a safe driver make! I most assuredly agree that Cad ideas on luxury finish are way off the mark. However, when I press the Foot-Feet (gas peddle), my comfort needs are fully slaked and dimished by a higher need. :D Rear View Mirror images of a legendary Bimmer are what is the most beautiful.

BacDoc
02-16-10, 08:17 AM
Come on. If I had to live with a car, I'd rather live with a GTI than a Mazdaspeed 3. I just would. Performance-wise, the 3 was superior, but the VW is a more luxurious, more comfortable ride and is fun to drive without being high strung.

As for the M3 and 3 series, they are EXCEPTIONAL automobiles. And they picked an S4 against a 335i in the last comparo.

Sounds like you have the mind boggling bias...

I just would. Which category does that fall under? Oh yes, bias.

dmp
02-16-10, 09:01 AM
most people of bmw/merc buying age arent big on touching the screen of their phones let alone of their radios. cadillac has to find ways to generate buzz to get younger and more tech savy buyers.


You might be right about Merc owners, but I think you are dead wrong about most of the BMW M owners. I bought my V instead of an M3 or M5 and it seems that most serious M owners get the Technology package and they better damn well like technology since there is an insane number configuration options available for performance. Of course, the M button is really the only one that matters...

liqidvenom
02-16-10, 09:44 AM
You might be right about Merc owners, but I think you are dead wrong about most of the BMW M owners. I bought my V instead of an M3 or M5 and it seems that most serious M owners get the Technology package and they better damn well like technology since there is an insane number configuration options available for performance. Of course, the M button is really the only one that matters...

the tech pack is almost needed on a bmw. it changes the user experience that much. but i have yet found someone who wants to reach all the way up the dash to push the navi screen of the m3.

thebigjimsho
02-16-10, 02:07 PM
I just would. Which category does that fall under? Oh yes, bias.
Way to go, Mr. Iassumetoomuch. No. I just would equates to overall driving enjoyment and overall ownership. It's whether you're jumping in the GTI to pick up dry cleaning or taking it down a quiet back road, I enjoy it more. It may "only" have 80% of the performance, but for what it does and how it goes about it, it's more enjoyable everyday than the higher strung Mazdaspeed 3.

That's not bias, it's called developing an informed opinion. Which is what C&D does in their comparos. You can question them. I suggest you not question me.

BacDoc
02-17-10, 09:55 AM
Way to go, Mr. Iassumetoomuch. No. I just would equates to overall driving enjoyment and overall ownership. It's whether you're jumping in the GTI to pick up dry cleaning or taking it down a quiet back road, I enjoy it more. It may "only" have 80% of the performance, but for what it does and how it goes about it, it's more enjoyable everyday than the higher strung Mazdaspeed 3.

That's not bias, it's called developing an informed opinion. Which is what C&D does in their comparos. You can question them. I suggest you not question me.

Again, it's all subjective as you just stated. And my point is the OP and other readers get worked up over that fact. No one is right or wrong, it's just a subjective opinion. Since you've spent extensive time in both the GTI and MS3 I suspect the GTI is just the better car....for you. ;)


In this comparo the rag gave the V a HUGE price to performance advantage which it deserved and then got nit picked in the other categories to give the Merc a narrow victory which I am more than happy with. Never been in that Merc so the only true way to tell if that comparo was fair in my eyes is to personally drive them both. To get upset over it is just plain childish....or extreme boredom.

liqidvenom
02-17-10, 10:35 AM
the interior of the big dollar mb vehicles are verry nice to live in. hard to compare with a car which is a vehicle class lower, but the cts would have had a hard time beating it there. one first glance maybe it isnt noticable, but spend 2weeks in one and you will see where that money goes.

it isnt always the fastest car which is the better car to own.

JFJr
02-17-10, 11:01 AM
the interior of the big dollar mb vehicles are verry nice to live in. hard to compare with a car which is a vehicle class lower, but the cts would have had a hard time beating it there. one first glance maybe it isnt noticable, but spend 2weeks in one and you will see where that money goes.

it isnt always the fastest car which is the better car to own.No offense, but all of us are entitled to our opinions, and some of us may appreciate that a larger portion of the "V's" budget was spent on the drivetrain, suspension and handling. Futhermore, I spend at lot of time travelling in my "V" and find the interior extremely comfortable and loaded with conveniences, regardless of which vehicle class it might be in.

Jud

liqidvenom
02-17-10, 11:13 AM
not sure why i would take offense, i was just stating why the e63 costs what it does and why people are ok paying that price even though other vehicles out there are faster then it.

The V is a really good car, but it isnt going to win overall battles with vehicles in price brackets way higher. magazine battles, people will spend money on what ever they want because they like something about a vehicle regardless if its a better buy or not.