: do undetectable tunes exist?



jaxctv
01-25-10, 06:42 PM
I know this is a debatable topic, but I'm hoping there is a real answer.

I recently purchased a 2009 CTS-V - love it. I am contemplating an engine/transmission tune as I think it might improve shifting and performance some. I have read that some vendors claim their tunes are undetectable and others have disputed this. I am also interested in not needlessly voiding my warranty for minor tweaks. If one flashes their car back to stock, is it really known by the dealer/GM ?

If the question if too controversial, please feel free to delete. I am not interested in singling out any 1 tuner or another.

Thanks.

IPS Brandon
01-25-10, 06:51 PM
I know this is a debatable topic, but I'm hoping there is a real answer.

I recently purchased a 2009 CTS-V - love it. I am contemplating an engine/transmission tune as I think it might improve shifting and performance some. I have read that some vendors claim their tunes are undetectable and others have disputed this. I am also interested in not needlessly voiding my warranty for minor tweaks. If one flashes their car back to stock, is it really known by the dealer/GM ?

If the question if too controversial, please feel free to delete. I am not interested in singling out any 1 tuner or another.

Thanks.

The short version, is yes flashing the factory ecu leaves a record behind that is detectable by a dealer (specifically not the dealer but by GM). The only reason you should be concerned is if they have reason to investigate. So if you have long tubes, pulleys, intake, ect, glaringly obvious modifications the dealer may be so inclined to inspect the computer, otherwise it is unlikely they will ever think to.

So keeping this short on my end to avoid to much argument, keep your dealer close, and explain how they need to help make you happy as a customer, and you will get good warranty work, with out all of the government motors interference.

Regards
Brandon
http://www.ipsmotorsports.net

cbloveday
01-25-10, 06:58 PM
Agreed. My dealership is aware of my mods. If I blow a piston though, I can't expect them to cover it. I may ask and if they decline, oh well.

I will not be deceptive and expect the dealership to cover something that turns out to be my fault.

Bottom line is, if you flash the car and come in for a drivetrain warranty, they will take a snapshot of the calibrations. However, your dealership may work with you depending on the relationship.

w4me claims that his flash is undetectable. I wouldn't buy it on that basis alone.

Gary Wells
01-25-10, 07:30 PM
So what is your opinion of buying another ECM, removing the factory ECM, tuning the 2nd ECM, and then removing it if you has to go to the dealer. Would it be detectable that there had been an ECM switch even though the factory ECM is back in the car?

V-Eight
01-25-10, 07:33 PM
So what is your opinion of buying another ECM, removing the factory ECM, tuning the 2nd ECM, and then removing it if you has to go to the dealer. Would it be detectable that there had been an ECM switch even though the factory ECM is back in the car?

I think the ECM records the number of times the car has been started.

Prof
01-25-10, 08:13 PM
Not trying to be smart just responding to the question...

Fraud is fraud...

Switch positions...you sell someone a car and give them a 30 day $500 warranty if anything comes up...they flash an ecm and then switch back to the orig. after shredding a piston...

Gentlemen...none of us with a $70k vehicle should be trying to cheat to avoid voiding a warranty. If you mod for increased performance...expect to pay for your fun if something goes wrong. On the other hand if the power windows fail...a good dealer should take care of that, and anything else not impacted by our need for speed.

ewill3rd
01-25-10, 08:15 PM
The reason some people claim that it is "undetectable" is because they don't change the calibration ID number.
We USED to only be able to check the ID number.
GM has an application that allows us to check the CVN, or calibration verification number.
I am told that is a sum total of the bits in the calibration, if the calibration is changed then the bit sum will change and the CVN will not match.

When a major component requires replacement like a supercharger, engine internal component or transmission component on these new design vehicles require replacement we are forced to call PQC (product quality center) and we must take a digital photograph of the screen that shows the cal ID numbers and the CVN for each.
If those numbers do not match any known GM calibration numbers then the warranty for that repair will be summarily denied.

I won't get into the argument of what would be covered or not, gone over that dozens of times.

To answer the original question, no, there is no such thing as an undetectable tune.
Changing the calibration means changing the bits, period.

The ECM doesn't store ignition cycles.
As part of OBD II on some DTCs it will track cycles since the codes were cleared or since codes were set, but that is all.

caddynoob
01-25-10, 08:30 PM
I am not familiar with the specifics of GM design, but I do have a graduate degree in Computer Science. The questions of detectability is an interesting one. In short, the answer is YES, if they really want to, they can probably find out that you have a tune. Let's look at a few different cases.


1. If you have a tune and does NOT flash back to stock tune before go back to the dealer. Well, in this case, it's pretty easy. They can just compare your tuned to a stock tune.

2. If you do flash back to stock tune, assuming that even the checksum/hashing checks out. Then there could be other parameters that's recorded in the ECU. For instance, the number of times it had been flashed. If such parameter is stored in the ECU, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to overwrite that counter without some measures beyond what the average consumers are capable of or comfortable with.

(edit: I would design it so that even the dealer don't have an easy way to access that counter. It is supposed to be accessible if you open up the ECU which will break the physical seal. No way that the OBDII or dealer computer can access that. The dealer will have to send the ECU back to the manufacture before they approve certain seriously warranty claims such as engine replacement)

3. If you have a spare ECU and swap the ECU back. Well, the ECU is not the only black box on your car. This is evident with the privacy statement in the user manual.

Even without taking other black boxes into consideration. Within the ECU alone I can record the number of times that the car had been started. You could change that number by turning the ignition on and off many times but what if it also records the time of each engine start and the duration?

Say you have 10000 miles on your odometer, but ECU says the engine has been running for only 20 hours. You are averaging 500mph!!! Other parameter such as odometer reading each time the car is started are also possible. This will show a huge gap between the ECU swap.

They can also detect ECU swap by comparing the odometer reading with other black boxes in the car to detect inconsistency. If I were the engineer, I would have other black boxes record the serial number of the ECU that's been on the car and the time of each swap. Then I can probably trace the ECU purchase back to you!

A lot of games can be played here. If GM will void a stock engine for going to HPDE (IIRC a C6 Z06), then don't be surprised if they nail you for a tune. Maybe you will be the one that they make an example of.

Having said all this, I got nothing against any particular tuner. I learned a lot about the V via their posts on this forum and youtube videos.:)

Gary Wells
01-25-10, 08:33 PM
Not trying to be smart just responding to the question...

Fraud is fraud...

Switch positions...you sell someone a car and give them a 30 day $500 warranty if anything comes up...they flash an ecm and then switch back to the orig. after shredding a piston...

Gentlemen...none of us with a $70k vehicle should be trying to cheat to avoid voiding a warranty. If you mod for increased performance...expect to pay for your fun if something goes wrong. On the other hand if the power windows fail...a good dealer should take care of that, and anything else not impacted by our need for speed.
Prof & everybody:
FWIW, I have no intentions of cheating GM on anything, performance increase or otherwise. However, this debate has gone on since the car came out and and I have always figured that anything and everything is detectable, but never really been too sure until now.
It is an interesting query, and conjures lots of interest.
And as far as switching positions, I am not GM, I do not make a substantial profit off of anything when I sell it, I almost always lose and I plan on that, and therefore I almost always sell anything discounted to avoid haggling. Consequently, I am not accustomed to offering a 30 day guarantee. Cash and carry. I am a very cautious buyer and I check out everything as much as possible before I lay down the cash, and I suggest everybody else do the same. Just like Kali, "A cooling off period, I don't think so".

liqidvenom
01-25-10, 08:41 PM
The reason some people claim that it is "undetectable" is because they don't change the calibration ID number.
We USED to only be able to check the ID number.
GM has an application that allows us to check the CVN, or calibration verification number.
I am told that is a sum total of the bits in the calibration, if the calibration is changed then the bit sum will change and the CVN will not match.

When a major component requires replacement like a supercharger, engine internal component or transmission component on these new design vehicles require replacement we are forced to call PQC (product quality center) and we must take a digital photograph of the screen that shows the cal ID numbers and the CVN for each.
If those numbers do not match any known GM calibration numbers then the warranty for that repair will be summarily denied.

I won't get into the argument of what would be covered or not, gone over that dozens of times.

To answer the original question, no, there is no such thing as an undetectable tune.
Changing the calibration means changing the bits, period.

The ECM doesn't store ignition cycles.
As part of OBD II on some DTCs it will track cycles since the codes were cleared or since codes were set, but that is all.

I cant speak on Gm but various manf who have ecus made by certain companies have been able to be flashed/tuned at the root code level and then it is unnoticeable by the OEM. just fwiw

caddynoob
01-25-10, 08:50 PM
I cant speak on Gm but various manf who have ecus made by certain companies have been able to be flashed/tuned at the root code level and then it is unnoticeable by the OEM. just fwiw

Not sure which manufacture that you have in mind, but I know that Bosch ECU has been let's say studied quite extensively. Of course the manufacture knows this, too. They also know that people WILL tune their car especially if its a performance model. So, that's where other black boxes comes into play.

The first mod that I will do is to disable OnStar after the 1 year trial. (Edit: Disable OnStar is a matter of privacy, not really related to the ECU modding business)

Gary Wells
01-25-10, 09:02 PM
Not sure which manufacture that you have in mind, but I know that Bosch ECU has been let's say studied quite extensively. Of course the manufacture knows this, too. They also know that people WILL tune their car especially if its a performance model. So, that's where other black boxes comes into play.

The first mod that I will do is to disable OnStar after the 1 year trial. (Edit: Disable OnStar is a matter of privacy, not really related to the ECU modding business)

You don't want that infamous call from them advising that you are exceeding the speed limit a few times over?

caddynoob
01-25-10, 09:27 PM
You don't want that infamous call from them advising that you are exceeding the speed limit a few times over?

LOL, not really because of that. It's as simple as the fact that OnStar has no business knowing where I am and what I do with my car. Not that I have anything to hide, I mean if I get it for free for a year then I will use it. But once I no longer enjoy the benefit of it, then why should I help them collect data about me, of which they can sell for marketing purposes? Another issue is control over my car. I like t control and I don't like being controlled. Give somebody the capability of remotely shutting off my ignition? No way!

If the system becomes so integrated in the future that it cannot be easily disabled, I will just not buy that model. Shouldn't be difficult to disable a system like that though. I mean as long as you take out the antenna, no more communication period.

I apologize for going offtopic, don't mean to hijack the thread.

garfin
01-25-10, 09:56 PM
FWIW, from http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=40324...

info on GM'S crackdown on aftermarket tunes...

the following is the p.i for calibration confirmation from GM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#PIP4386: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations - 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.8 2.9 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.4 3.5 3.6 3.8 3.9 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.6 4.8 5.0 5.3 5.7 6.0 6.2 7.0 7.4 8.1 - (Apr 8, 2008)


Subject: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations


Models: 2005-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

except Pontiac Vibe, Chevy Aveo, and All Saab Models




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:
A dealer may have the need to verify engine calibrations. If a dealer feels an aftermarket power-up calibration has induced engine and/or drive train damage, there is now a way to verify what calibration is currently in the vehicle.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case, or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than those that these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and / or other driveline components where a non GM engine calibration has been verified, are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Recommendation/Instructions:
Instructions for confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN)
Go to TIS2WEB

Select Calibration Information (SPS Info)

Enter VIN

Select "Get Cal ID"

Select ECM Engine Control Module

Hit "next"

Select "Complete History"

Print

Take Printout to Vehicle along with Tech II
Plug in Tech II

Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle

Select Powertrain

Select the engine

Select F0 - Engine Control Module

Select F4/F5 - I/M information System / Module ID information*

Select F1

Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* This step may vary by controller; use the Module ID Information in the Engine Controls.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued.

If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY calibration verification numbers (CVN's) do not match the printout, it is likely that a non GM certified calibration has been installed.

In order to document the case - a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the TECH 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture and a PDF copy of the TIS2WEB printout should be forwarded to jay.dankovich@GM.com for verification along with the VIN and the reason the vehicle is currently in for service. Please copy your GM Area Service Manager (DVM/DSM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 48 hours.

If both the Part numbers and the CVN are different, photograph the part numbers and CVN's on the tech 2 screen as described above, assuring the VIN shows clearly in the photograph of the TECH2 screen, and check to see if the vehicle has the latest released calibration. If the latest released calibration is not installed in the vehicle, the part numbers will not match , and the CVN's won't either. E- mail the original Part Numbers and CVN's found in the vehicle on the TECH 2 to: jay.dankovich@GM.com to check if the calibration and CVN matches a previous release. Recalibrate with the latest released cal and re-check against the part numbers and CVN's that are released.


Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

Best regards,

Elie

neuronbob
01-25-10, 10:01 PM
You know what? I've gone back and forth about the debate for the last year. I'm going to assume that GM will be able to figure out that the control modules have been flashed. I simply do not see the harm in a light tune like Jesse's that makes transmission function more efficient without blowing up said transmission. If there were a big problem with Jesse's tune in specific, we would have seen it with as many Vs as are running them on this forum. I'm therefore not that worried about my tranny being ruined.

If I do this (I still haven't pulled the trigger yet but am really close, I'm such a Chicken Little) I'll at least be honest enough with the servicing dealer to mention it if the tranny is fried, since they'll figure it out anyway. At least a tranny is less expensive ($$$$) than an LSA engine ($$$$$).....so no other engine mods for me.

Vrocks
01-25-10, 10:03 PM
Calibration ID and CVN can be manipulated with certain versions of Efi live (hp tuners never had this ability) - I read that on the efi live forum... Apparently, gm threatened legal action and it was removed from later versions.

Again, I have no way of verifying this because I don't use efi live, and it's just what I read on their forum.

Prof
01-25-10, 10:06 PM
If I do this (I still haven't pulled the trigger yet but am really close, I'm such a Chicken Little) I'll at least be honest enough with the servicing dealer to mention it if the tranny is fried, since they'll figure it out anyway. At least a tranny is less expensive ($$$$) than an LSA engine ($$$$$).....so no other engine mods for me.

Sounds rational to me!

Gary Wells
01-25-10, 10:15 PM
I am not the least worried or concerned about blowing up my tranny or motor with Jesse's tune, or anybody else's. I am right around the corner from having D3 do my car, little more than a tune, too. As money, job market, and the economy gets tighter, I see both GM and the dealers tightening up the reins on modifications regardless of whether the mods took out the motor or rear end.
I have long ago resigned myself to having to pay for anything that goes wrong, in addition to the isolator, which has already gone south & been replaced, and I am praying that I don't get the dreaded front wheel clicking.

dmp
01-25-10, 10:21 PM
I see both sides, but GM's shift program for the auto really leaves **a lot** to be desired. Pretty much you have 'take wife out to dinner' mode and a best operated with foot all the way down 'sport mode.' IIRC from the owner's manual, with the transmission in tour mode, doesn't it go from 1st to 4th without pretty heavy acceleration? Also, with tour, play with putting your foot part of the way down at about 25 or 30 I think, get a downshift and then quickly press it all the way to the floor and get the second, very jerky and seemingly interminably slow, downshift or double downshift. Ugggh. Still far better than the M5's SMG in a non-balls out setting, but really they should give us more shift programs to choose from or offer us a more palatable program.

neuronbob
01-25-10, 10:30 PM
but really they should give us more shift programs to choose from or offer us a more palatable program.

YES! AMEN BROTHA! PREACH! The automatic transmission program is the weak point in the auto V's package. It's not bad, but it definitely could be better. In good weather I'm in Sport mode 95% of the time, which is how I think the Drive mode should be from the factory.

Prof
01-25-10, 10:32 PM
My choice is just moving to the manual mode in the automatic and let it shift at the prescribed shift points...that is strong, but could be much stronger with an appropriate flash...but without, it is a world of difference from the "D" mode in my opinion.

cbloveday
01-25-10, 10:38 PM
Best way to approach this is, if you mod, expect the warranty to be voided.

GM has been very clear on their position.

I was told by my dealership that the snapshot is taken and sent to GM. If the dealership repairs under warranty and then GM later determines the warranty is void, they charge back the dealership. Essentially the dealership will determine how important your business is and if they want to assist.

The only gray area is if the mod caused the problem.

Example: You increase HP and you have a chasis or suspension issue and the dealership claims the additional hp puts undue stress on the car.
There you go. Gray area

This could be argued for tracking or taking the car to the drag strip as well.

Fubar75207
01-26-10, 11:27 AM
I have heard different stories on the exact specifics of the law with regard to this. The version I "like" the best is that the manufacture must prove that the modification caused the part to fail. I am prepared for a worst case scenario but I'd like to think I have a chance.

I would love to read the case law on decisions related to this mater. Is there a lawyer in da house?

MReiland
01-26-10, 12:28 PM
I am not a powertrain engineer so this is certainly just an opinion (As is everything I post here :bouncy:), to warranty for 100,000 miles a powertain with over 550 H.P. would mean that the test mules have many, many (MANY) miles on them with different programs making sure that they can handle it. I am sure along they way they found things that caused damage and wear and programmed them out. A minor modification to the trans program or engine cal may not take anything out right away but it seems very feasable to me that something very minor could reduce the tranny or engine life from 100k to 50k miles very easily in a car with this much power and torque. I personally would like you all to enjoy the car as much as possible but once it gets modified, and possibly broken, changing the ECU or calibrations back to stock and telling the dealer you don't know what happened is pretty dishonest, no other way to put it. If you felt that the tune or cal had no effect on the damage, leave it in when you take it to the dealer.

cbloveday
01-26-10, 12:56 PM
I agree. :sneaky:

Fubar75207
01-26-10, 01:46 PM
here you guys will need this:

http://msnowe.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/soap-box.jpg

MReiland
01-26-10, 02:30 PM
Huh :suspect:

Prof
01-26-10, 02:43 PM
here you guys will need this:

http://msnowe.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/soap-box.jpg



Yeah....I do get accused of being a moral scold sometimes...I guess it is the teacher in me...guilty as charged in my case. :tisk: :o

09V
01-26-10, 07:57 PM
I would have to agree that it is dishonest, but at the same time most people would agree with me that a lot of dealers always try to place blame without any rhyme or reason. So a car being tuned shouldn't have any effect on the Nav system, but we all know that it could potentially become an issue if a problem should arise. This is the unfortunate side of things. I don't think some of the guys on here were trying to get over if they happened to blow their motors up, but they don't want to be treated like a red-headed step child for modding their cars. Not all dealers are equal and that is unfortunate. Hopefully the relationship with the dealers is strong enough to weather legit warranty claims. Just my $.02

PGA2B
01-26-10, 09:25 PM
I have heard different stories on the exact specifics of the law with regard to this. The version I "like" the best is that the manufacture must prove that the modification caused the part to fail.

That in a nutshell is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637) and it is a United States federal law (15 U.S.C. 2301 et seq.). Enacted in 1975. To read more click on this link to the FTC website. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus01.shtm

I have waited and nobody has even mentioned this.

Gary Wells
01-26-10, 09:48 PM
That in a nutshell is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637) and it is a United States federal law (15 U.S.C. 2301 et seq.). Enacted in 1975. To read more click on this link to the FTC website. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus01.shtm

I have waited and nobody has even mentioned this.

Actually, that has been mentioned quite a few times.

Luna.
01-26-10, 11:14 PM
:helpless:

I simply roll my eyes every time I read about someone trying to HIDE what they are doing to their car for fear of warranty denial. Give me a break...

Want to know what I believe to be 10x WORSE than the dealership knowing you modded your car?

LYING TO THEM

This is about the fastest route you'll ever get to being DENIED anything and everything.

I've seen it--FIRST HAND--

The service advisor even said, as he shook his head,"If the guy would have just been honest from minute one, we might have been able to help more. But since he lied, there was nothing we could do."

And it didn't appear they WANTED to help either when they found out he was lying.

Just tell the friggin truth and go from there.

Simply unreal in my mind... :bigroll:

I think a far better strategy is to have the dealership INSTALL as many mods as possible. Yeah, few, if any, can tune, but headers, CAI, superchargers (for V1s), etc. all are potential mods that can be installed by the dealer. This way, they got some skin in the game. And many dealerships won't hesitate at all installing these mods, as they make money on the install.

GOODWILL with your dealership is one of your best assets in situations when a failure occurs.

neuronbob
01-27-10, 12:22 AM
This is the approach I took with my Acuras. I had a good working relationship with my dealer. They installed ALL of my mods on the three Acuras I owned, except for tint. For example, my RL had

--lowering springs (made by Acura, no less, so I had warranty on those!)
--CAI
--catback exhaust
--backup camera

And I never had trouble with warranty with them. Working on building that relationship with my servicing dealer now. They offered to install a CAI and said "that wouldn't be a warranty issue". :thumbsup: to them and I'll consider it if I decide on a CAI.

ewill3rd
01-27-10, 07:52 AM
A few repetetive points here but....

1. GM doesn't take the time or spend the money to have us "ship back" controllers to them to count times reflashed, hours used, or have us compare data to other modules. Frankly the scan tool we use and programming software application we have just don't have this level of control. If the CVN numbers match GM is done and will pay for warranty related repairs, period. If the repair is powertrain oriented they want a digital photo of the CVN numbers on the screen of the scan tool, if they don't match then warranty denied. See below

2. Reprogramming ECM and TCM calibrations is technically a violation of federal law, it isn't so much that GM is looking for an excuse although that certainly should be considered a factor. In order for that car to hit production they have to meet TONS of regulations from EPA and balance that with performance and CAFE standards.
The minute you change the program you are violating the warranty agreement by modifying your car (from a legal standpoint) and if the change results in damage to the car then you as the owner are liable. The car must remain in an "as manufactured" condition for warranty on various systems. While programming can be done, it is illegal. I am not saying it Will result in a failure but from a legal standpoint if you altered it and it breaks....

As I have said before and has been beaten to death on this forum, if the failure is related to a modification then the system is not covered. If you put in a CAI it won't void the warranty on the radio or the brake lights but if your engine ingests water and bends the rods then it wouldn't be covered.

CIWS
01-27-10, 08:31 AM
I have heard different stories on the exact specifics of the law with regard to this. The version I "like" the best is that the manufacture must prove that the modification caused the part to fail. I am prepared for a worst case scenario but I'd like to think I have a chance.

I would love to read the case law on decisions related to this mater. Is there a lawyer in da house?

Well by the letter of the law this is true. However where the rubber meets the road is it is dependent upon you the owner to file a lawsuit and get them in a court to prove something you did to the car caused the failure. What would happen is the dealership would deny the warranty repair based on their belief it was caused by some action of the owner. So that owner is then stuck with a broken car and the choice of filing a lawsuit to get the some action on the situation without paying for it themselves. So the question becomes how much is it going to cost that owner to file that lawsuit and retain the services of a lawyer over the span of years it can be dragged out, and the possibility the court rules against the owner in the end. That owner could certainly go ahead and pay for the repair and then file the suit in hopes of recovering the cost, but again how much money are they going to spend when it's said and done.

You guys have an actual tech here telling you what happens. It isn't just someone's opinion or guess about what they think happens in the shop. It may be very true that someone's tune isn't going to cause a failure, but if you change the car from factory and there is a failure purely because it crapped out and they look and see it's been changed, you lose. It doesn't matter at that point whether it was actually responsible or not. You're holding the murder weapon, so to speak, and it now becomes your burden to prove you're not the killer. They're simply looking at what's before them.

It very simply should be that if you decide to have your car tuned you should also accept the responsibility that a failure could occur and you could end up paying for it. Just save up an extra 5000.00 to cover most repairs and if nothing happens - bonus. Some folks have had great luck with it and some have had rotten luck. When you throw the dice sometimes you win and sometimes you crap out.


If you can get the dealership to install mods, then that's great because then they own it. But how many dealerships do you know tune the cars ?

Fubar75207
01-27-10, 10:57 AM
Dealerships don't decide what gets covered, they benefit greatly if GM covers everything. However GM has a warranty policy and when a dealership calls in a big ticket item (like an LSa motor), GM calls out a rep to inspect the warranty item and what might have caused it. This is where things get sticky for people who mod car.

If you have a good relationship with your dealer then they might try to help you "cover up" the modification. Does that mean they are lying to their boss GM (yes it does)? I have seen this happen first hand. They have a business to run and I respect that. GM is like any other insurance company when it comes to claims. If the money is significant they will investigate a claim.

Again, if it makes you guys feel like a pillar of ethical perfection... then please, continue to cast those moral stones. :worship:

CIWS
01-27-10, 12:05 PM
Dealerships don't decide what gets covered, they benefit greatly if GM covers everything. However GM has a warranty policy and when a dealership calls in a big ticket item (like an LSa motor), GM calls out a rep to inspect the warranty item and what might have caused it. This is where things get sticky for people who mod car.

If you have a good relationship with your dealer then they might try to help you "cover up" the modification. Does that mean they are lying to their boss GM (yes it does)? I have seen this happen first hand. They have a business to run and I respect that. GM is like any other insurance company when it comes to claims. If the money is significant they will investigate a claim.

All true. I used the term dealership because they are the ones who either repair it or tell you the bad news. But they are also the ones who are now required to check the CVN numbers when certain items fail and report those results to GM to either approve or disapprove the repair for warranty coverage. This is a relatively "recent" change in things from the way it's been in the past. But you're going to have to have a really good relationship with your dealership to have them e-mail the GM engineers with false CVN screenshots.

cbloveday
01-27-10, 12:22 PM
I don't believe anyone has that good of a relationship. Honesty is the best policy.

ewill3rd
01-27-10, 01:23 PM
I don't think anyone here is declaring moral superiority, in fact I see several admissions of things that COULD void certain aspects of warranty with the admission that they realize they may be penalized for doing so.
My personal position is wait until it is out of warranty and then do whatever you want. (within the boundaries of the law)

Working at one of the most mod friendly dealers around I can't say I get too excited about it but if GM demands information from me I have to give it to them and ultimately the decision is up to them.

caddynoob
01-27-10, 04:09 PM
A few repetetive points here but....

1. GM doesn't take the time or spend the money to have us "ship back" controllers to them to count times reflashed, hours used, or have us compare data to other modules. Frankly the scan tool we use and programming software application we have just don't have this level of control. If the CVN numbers match GM is done and will pay for warranty related repairs, period. If the repair is powertrain oriented they want a digital photo of the CVN numbers on the screen of the scan tool, if they don't match then warranty denied.



My point exactly. In theory, GM can collect some data that the dealership can't even access or ain't aware of. Just because they are not doing it doesn't mean that it can't be done. If they really crack down on things that is.