: Santa Monica tragedy



shaggygrosser
07-17-03, 10:16 AM
Did you all see this story?:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/07/16/farmers.market.crash/index.html

Should there be an age restriction or stricter driving requirements when handing out licenses? Something is nagging at me that this whole thing could have been avoided.


There was a situation here in Kansas around '96 where someone's grandmother that had Alzheimers took the family car out for a ride... down the wrong way of interstate-70.

MMNineInchNails
07-17-03, 12:25 PM
The old people are striking back!!!! LOOK OUT! They're looking to take over the whole world.

shaggygrosser
07-17-03, 12:40 PM
well, they've already got the monopoly on Depends. They could very well be on their way to world domination.

Seriously though, there's a 3 year old that's dead because an 86 year old man mixed up the brake & accelerator. Worst of all, one of the witnesses said that he wasn't just speeding, he was ACCELERATING. :disappoin

MMNineInchNails
07-17-03, 12:42 PM
Good ol' old people not having anything better to do. Dude if I were that lonely, I'd do it too. He probably has no family so he gets all his fun off by running over people. and he can almost get away with it too cause he's some old dude that doesn't know what the **** he's doing.





haha jk about doing it myself.

bs4sho
07-17-03, 12:43 PM
DAMN :shocked2:

Mad'lac
07-17-03, 01:49 PM
I say anyone over 65 should have to retake the driver's test. If you think we should ban old folks from driving then you should add anyone under 21 to this list.

Elvis
07-17-03, 02:22 PM
Watch the video of the old man. I really feel sorry for this guy. He doesn't look like he's "out of it" and he really looks about 70, not 86. His family is just as responsible for this as he is. They probably should've taken the keys away at some point.

If you look at accidents per total miles driven, teenagers are a lot safer behind the wheel than people realize. Yeah, they do a lot of stupid stuff, but just think about how much time they put in and how much cruising they do. The number of accidents is relatively low when you think about it.

A lot of senior citizens drive less than 50 miles a week and look at how many scrapes and bumps they get into.

Mad'lac
07-17-03, 02:40 PM
you are talking about accidents per MILES. Now try accident in age groups. You'll see that teenagers are by far the worst group out there. And they have more fatalities in that age group.

AirJigga25
07-17-03, 03:02 PM
That guy should go to jail...I don't care how old he is or if it is an accident, he killed 8 people.

elwesso
07-17-03, 03:15 PM
I think it is more the families respsonsibility..... If your loved one can handle driving, then they shouldnt do it... Sure it will help their ego, but its better to have a lessened ego and be alive than none at all!!!

The thing is, old people think they are as good as they were 30 years ago, when their reaction time, hearing, and sight has diminished..... Hopefully I will be responsible enough to realize that its time for me to call it quits!!!!

AKPsiMC03
07-17-03, 03:39 PM
That guy should go to jail...I don't care how old he is or if it is an accident, he killed 8 people.

agreed. My mom told me the day that she is too unsafe to drive i have ot take her car from her.

But If you think there are alot of old people now. wait a few years, the baby-boomers are just starting to retire now... soon they will be all over the road at 2:00 PM with nothing better to do.

When i get that old i hope somone in my family has the balls to take my car away. I dont wanna be a hazzard on the road.

shaggygrosser
07-17-03, 03:45 PM
Hopefully I can afford a chauffeur by the time I get to that age.

shaggygrosser
07-17-03, 03:49 PM
Teens can get pretty road-stupid. Shoot, I remember when I was in high school... Luckily my passengers & I always came out alive & kickin'

Elvis
07-17-03, 04:39 PM
That's why I said "per miles driven" in my post. If you looked at "hours behind the wheel" it would also show some pretty favorable numbers for teenagers.

My own belief is that nobody under 21 should be allowed behind the wheel after dark, but hey, I'm a f-ing Nazi when it comes to law and order. I'd make exceptions for work permits and that kind of thing.

Maybe it should be a "one strike" law--clean record? you drive. Mess up? Wait 'til you're 21 to get your freedom back.

Drivers over age 75 should be tested every 2 years.
---------------------------------------
But instead, what do we spend billions enforcing? Seat belt and child restraint laws. And at the same time, EVERY WEEK this summer a kid in this country will die of heat exhaustion after being left in a damn day care van all day long because SOMEBODY forgot to check before they locked it up.

Sorry, just venting.

MMNineInchNails
07-17-03, 05:17 PM
Ok, the thing with teenagers. I'm one so I can tell you what's going on. They don't know how to drive in a good menuverable way, basically most of them suck ass. I have a few friends that are good drivers, but most teens don't know shit about how to drive, and they try to drive fast. Doesn't work. More teens should go to a professional car driving school. one that teaches them how to countersteer and that kinda stuff. Most crashes are from not knowing what they're doing. say they're loosing the back end, they're going to slam on their brakes and make it worse. I myself am not a safe driver, but I do know how to drive to get myself out of a bad situation. I'm not safe because I like to speed. Good thing I bought a caddy now though, cause it's definatly for cruisin.

AirJigga25
07-17-03, 05:21 PM
That's why I said "per miles driven" in my post. If you looked at "hours behind the wheel" it would also show some pretty favorable numbers for teenagers.

My own belief is that nobody under 21 should be allowed behind the wheel after dark, but hey, I'm a f-ing Nazi when it comes to law and order. I'd make exceptions for work permits and that kind of thing.

Maybe it should be a "one strike" law--clean record? you drive. Mess up? Wait 'til you're 21 to get your freedom back.

Drivers over age 75 should be tested every 2 years.
---------------------------------------
But instead, what do we spend billions enforcing? Seat belt and child restraint laws. And at the same time, EVERY WEEK this summer a kid in this country will die of heat exhaustion after being left in a damn day care van all day long because SOMEBODY forgot to check before they locked it up.

Sorry, just venting.

I agree that drivers over 75 should be tested every 2 years.

I also agree that young drivers suck. I'm 22, when I was 16 I got in 4 minor accidents, and they were all on snow or ice. Wait, maybe not minor, I flipped my 88 taurus because I was on ice and didn't know how to pump my breaks. I was a bad driver then. However, from ages 17-almost 23 ...I haven't gotten in 1 accident. So I don't agree on the 21 thing.

New Hampshire used to have a law where if you got a ticket, you lost you license for 90 days if you were under 20. They got rid of it though...

Katshot
07-18-03, 03:10 PM
The problem is that most families are relying on the Government to take the keys from their unsafe family members. They don't want to be the "Bad-Guy". If the Government, through the DMVs doesn't step up and get pro-active on this subject, it is DEFINATELY going to get worse.

steelerfan
07-18-03, 03:46 PM
Sounds great to say it is family responcibility to take car away. Have you ever tried it? Unless you go to court and get them ruled unsound you don't really have the power to do this. It's there decision. I'm sorry but this is one time that it does take a law to force older drivers to take retests.

HotRodSaint
07-18-03, 07:36 PM
I seem to recall that California tried to pass a law governing older drivers. But the cowardly Democrats who run that state, backed down after the AARP (a special interest group for retired people) put their weight against the effort. I guess 8 dead people is better than 8 out of work Democrats. A$$hole$. They should be the ones going to jail.

Liberals just worry about making the cars safer and never about making safer drivers (cars don't vote). Watch, some liberal moron will blame it all on the auto maker because they didn't make their bumpers safe enough for pedestrians. :mad:

ljklaiber
07-18-03, 08:24 PM
Well!
I admit to being a resident old guy here...(63), but when I get SUV headlights 6 foot off my bumper at 7AM in the morning , it is usually a 'Yuppie' drinkin coffee, whatever, that dont give a s..t! I usually run 5 to 10 over the speed limit...too slow I guess...lol

JerseyGirl
07-18-03, 08:38 PM
I say anyone over 65 should have to retake the driver's test. If you think we should ban old folks from driving then you should add anyone under 21 to this list.

I agree!
That guy had the classic signs of Alzheimers all the way. I took care of my hubbys ma for 2 years & it is completely mind altering. She could not remember where she was...but could remember where she was back in 1933. The disease is terrible & that old man just had "the LOOK". Terrible...

elwesso
07-18-03, 10:50 PM
My grandma has it now, and it is bad enough now that she cant even form sentances that make sense.... She looks "normal" per se, but its just like a shell walking around..... Nothing really inside.... Its a terrible thing......

kcnewell
07-18-03, 11:26 PM
I don't think the answer is to just across the board start testing all people over a certain age. Most of them are safe drivers and know their limitations for the most part I.M.H.O. I do think that they ( DMV ) Should flag drivers of ANY age who are having a lot of little issues and problems that start showing up on their driving records and bring them in for a road test to see what the problem is. The 16 to 24 year old male driver is statisticly the worst driver on the road! I also think that some of the yuppified morons whos parents are reaching the age where they might start having problems should GROW A BACKBONE and start to ( For once in their lives ) Take a little PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for these types of family problems and stop looking to the government to take care of them and do it for them. In a country that is up to its a$$ in stupid laws already we don't need further intrusion of government into our day to day lives!

In short: We don't need a new law passed, We need to take care of it at home! ( Where it should be handled )

elwesso
07-18-03, 11:51 PM
I agree completely...

HotRodSaint
07-19-03, 08:21 AM
In short: We don't need a new law passed, We need to take care of it at home! ( Where it should be handled )

That would assume that everyone over 65 has family members that are still living, live near them or care about them. That's one false assumption.

I see no reason why people over 65 shouldn't be given a behind the wheel test yearly. Since the government issues the drivers license, then it is the governments responsibility as to who they issue a license too. If it takes an extra law to make the DMV more effective, then so be it.

Driving is a priviledge and we make it much too easy to get, and keep, a drivers license. There are some pretty stupid people who shouldn't be allowed to hold a knife, let alone drive a car.

Elvis
07-19-03, 11:57 AM
I'm eleven years away from my first AARP mailout. <sigh>

As far as taking the keys away from grandma and grandpa, just yank the coil wire. We did it to two of my grandparents and it worked fine. If they're sharp enough to fix it themselves, they're probably sharp enough to drive.

And I don't agree with counting on the government to take sole responsibility for taking the keys away, either. This country is engaging in an orgy of abandonment of personal responsibility. We expect the government to raise our kids and take care of our elderly. Nobody seems to realize that it ain't free. Which leads me to a prediction...

Things will get crazy in this case. When the lawsuits start filing you're probably going to see a lot of people and entities getting sued. This old man's estate isn't going to begin to cover the damages. You'll see his children getting sued for not taking away the keys. The City will be sued as well, it'll probably be something about not barricading the road sufficiently. The State of California will be sued for not taking this man off the road. Buick might even get sued.

elwesso
07-19-03, 03:06 PM
I agree...... No one wants to take any responsibility for their actions..... If they screw up, they would rather blame it on someone else and sue them....... How stupid is that???

kcnewell
07-19-03, 03:51 PM
.

I see no reason why people over 65 shouldn't be given a behind the wheel test yearly.
.


I see many reasons not to hand over your personal freedoms to some pencil pusher in a government office...I think there are a lot of weak people that just want somebody else to handle everything for them. I see these people whittling away at our constitutional rights every day in the name of personal safety or some impossible dream of the government being able to handle their lives for them. Without any regard to the mess that they're leaving for some future generation to clean up.
Every time something happens, No matter how out of the ordinary or unusual it may be....Some A-Hole wants to pass another redundant law so he can prevent it from happening again. This was a freak accident and the odds of anythig like this happening again are astronomical. We don't need to make life more difficult for everybody that happens to be over a certain age just because one (count'em....1 ) poor old guy happend to do a horrible thing. We need to be aware of the deep intrusion of thee federal government into our daily lives and not play into their hands every time something happens by allowing them to pass more bullsh*t laws to further reduce our personal freedom!


Think about it...

ljklaiber
07-19-03, 04:23 PM
Thanks KC and others for tellin it right. We have enough government to make a buzzard puke. I will surely know when I can't handle a rainy road or my favorite cadillac in a responsible manner. If I get alzheimers ,
my family will give me a steering wheel and I will drive my favorite chair.

the Sandman
07-19-03, 04:31 PM
I see many reasons not to hand over your personal freedoms to some pencil pusher in a government office...I think there are a lot of weak people that just want somebody else to handle everything for them. I see these people whittling away at our constitutional rights every day in the name of personal safety or some impossible dream of the government being able to handle their lives for them. Without any regard to the mess that they're leaving for some future generation to clean up.
Every time something happens, No matter how out of the ordinary or unusual it may be....Some A-Hole wants to pass another redundant law so he can prevent it from happening again. This was a freak accident and the odds of anythig like this happening again are astronomical. We don't need to make life more difficult for everybody that happens to be over a certain age just because one (count'em....1 ) poor old guy happend to do a horrible thing. We need to be aware of the deep intrusion of thee federal government into our daily lives and not play into their hands every time something happens by allowing them to pass more bullsh*t laws to further reduce our personal freedom!

Think about it...Yes, but driving is not a Constitutional right or a "personal freedom". It's a privilege regulated by the Government. Why? Because it's very dangerous! A vehicle is a multi-ton missile and humans (*fallible* humans) are the guidance system. In the interest of public safety, steps must be taken to insure that the vehicles, roads, and drivers are as safe as possible.

In Florida, many accidents are caused by elderly drivers. Sure, most are not nearly as destructive as the Santa Monica incident, but still bad things happen. In one fatal multi-car collision on US 19 (8 lanes, consistently rated one of the most dangerous roads in the country), the elderly driver just pulled out of a side street into traffic. He later said he could never judge when it was safe to go so he counted cars passing in the right lane and pulled out after the 7th one...it had always worked before :banghead2. Determining how to evaluate these elderly drivers, and for that matter any impaired drivers, is a difficult but necessary function of the Government IMO. The driver in the Santa Monica incident killed and injured babies not to mention children and adults. Imagine if one of your loved ones was killed...No, the time to act is before tragedy strikes - isn't that why DUI, once not a very big deal, is now a *huge* deal?

Think about it...the Constitutional rights - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - it's the victims who need the protection, not the drivers...

HotRodSaint
07-19-03, 11:16 PM
I see many reasons not to hand over your personal freedoms to some pencil pusher in a government office...I think there are a lot of weak people that just want somebody else to handle everything for them. I see these people whittling away at our constitutional rights every day in the name of personal safety or some impossible dream of the government being able to handle their lives for them. Without any regard to the mess that they're leaving for some future generation to clean up.
Every time something happens, No matter how out of the ordinary or unusual it may be....Some A-Hole wants to pass another redundant law so he can prevent it from happening again. This was a freak accident and the odds of anythig like this happening again are astronomical. We don't need to make life more difficult for everybody that happens to be over a certain age just because one (count'em....1 ) poor old guy happend to do a horrible thing. We need to be aware of the deep intrusion of thee federal government into our daily lives and not play into their hands every time something happens by allowing them to pass more bullsh*t laws to further reduce our personal freedom!


Think about it...

Driving is not a consitutional right. It has never been one. It has always been a priviledge. And it should remain so.

The states (not the feds) already govern who may and who may not get a license. Whats so hard to understand about that?

Yes, this freak accident got wide coverage because of the number of people run over. But how many times do you hear about single car fatalities caused by elderly? Does that mean they don't happen?

Redundant laws? Huh? Is there already a law governing older drivers?

Yeah, those sneaky communists just want to keep old people from hurting themselves and others. They should have the freedom to go out and harm people, this is American damn-it!

Whatever...your too funny.

HotRodSaint
07-19-03, 11:19 PM
Think about it...

Dude, pitbulls act on instinct not thought! He just saw an easy target and tried to take a bite. Just pat him on the head, give him a snausage and he'll be ok.

elwesso
07-19-03, 11:21 PM
mmmmmm, snausage.......

Maybe some beggin strips...... I almost took a bite of one of those, thinking it was bacon... Then it had the traditional "dog treat smell".....

HotRodSaint
07-19-03, 11:23 PM
mmmmmm, snausage.......

Maybe some beggin strips...... I almost took a bite of one of those, thinking it was bacon... Then it had the traditional "dog treat smell".....

:histeric: I gave a jerkey strip to my friend in High School. I told him it was beef jerkey. He ate it and asked for another. :histeric:

kcnewell
07-20-03, 09:30 AM
Read the post again ( This time with your eyes opened ) I never said that driving was a constitutional right...I said that we don't need more laws..and I mentioned in passing that too many WEAK people are willing to give up their freedom ( Constitutional and otherwise ) in order to have an unrealistic feeling of personal safety. Freedom isn't cheap and it takes effort. The problem is that most people in this country are so intellectually deadened by the pig slop they see and hear in the media and the indoctrination that passes for public education for the last thirty years or so that they are IGNORANT enough to think that the government can cure every little problem with a law. We've got a victim mentality going here in this country ( Everybody is a victim of something ) We all sit here on our collective a$$es and want someone else to handle the difficult stuff for us....That's a cop out I.M.H.O. This is not a big deal ( what happened in Santa Monica ) It's a terrible accident....The big deal is how we will ALL be affected by the laws shoved down our throats by the hysteria whipped up by the media and an all to willing and sadly uneducated public!


Redundant laws: There are already laws governing ALL drivers Young and old.

How many times have you seen a single car accident caused by a young male driver?

How many times have you seen a non english speaking person driving worse than any old person could possibly drive because they can't read the signs? ( I mentioned no race here intentionally )

Laugh if you want to....But this country is slowly devolving into a minor police state. The govrnment is gradually taking more and more freedom away from us in the name of personal safety and so called security. You'd better enjoy your freedom now because you're gradually allowing it to be taken from you and you're not even concerned about it!

the Sandman
07-20-03, 09:51 AM
I see many reasons not to hand over your personal freedoms to some pencil pusher in a government office...I think there are a lot of weak people that just want somebody else to handle everything for them. I see these people whittling away at our constitutional rights every day in the name of personal safety...be aware of the deep intrusion of thee federal government into our daily lives and not play into their hands every time something happens by allowing them to pass more bullsh*t laws to further reduce our personal freedom![/eyes wide open] Maybe I misunderstood you but I think you can see where I got the idea. Conceptually, I do agree with you to some extent - I do not like Government intrusion into our daily lives. But by that I mean unnecessary Government intrusion. In the case of regulation of impaired drivers, I believe that Government can and should take reasonable steps to insure public safety by preventing those without the necessary faculties from driving on public roadways. Of course, what's reasonable is debatable. I mean, you're not saying that blind people should be allowed to drive, right? The blind have the same rights as everyone else though. It's not a question of rights or freedoms - it's a question of public safety - those who are not able to bear the responsibility safely must be prevented from doing harm to the public, who would otherwise be unable to protect themselves from this danger.[/eyes]

kcnewell
07-20-03, 10:17 AM
The thing that worries me is that we are being spoon fed our ideas on these matters by a powerful media that dosen't always have the best interest of this country in mind. Of course blind people shouldn't drive...But if you let the government stick their foot in the door eventually you'll have a housguest that you never wanted.A perfect case in point is the commercial drivers license. The government wanted to get " Bad big rig drivers " off the road, So they made some noise about safety and drugs and made a BIG DEAL out of a few traffic accidents and got the public all worked up about it. ( With the help of the willing media ) So They got drug testing ( A good thing ) And then they went on and got the C.D.L. ( commercial drivers licence ) which lets the feds set the standards for testing of commercial drivers. ( Sounds good, Doesn't it? ) The down side is That they made the test so hard that a lot of really good truck drivers couldn't pass it. They've got a lot more terrible truck drivers out there now because they can pass a test but they have no common sense when it comes to getting an 80,000 pound truck down the road. The trucking industry is starving for drivers but some of the good ole boys that used to make great truck drivers just can't seem to get passed the testing. BUT! The government saved us from all the " Bad Big Rig Drivers " So we should all feel better now....Every time you let the government have to much say in things they make them worse!

HotRodSaint
07-20-03, 10:36 AM
Read the post again ( This time with your eyes opened ) I never said that driving was a constitutional right...I said that we don't need more laws..and I mentioned in passing that too many WEAK people are willing to give up their freedom ( Constitutional and otherwise ) in order to have an unrealistic feeling of personal safety. Freedom isn't cheap and it takes effort. The problem is that most people in this country are so intellectually deadened by the pig slop they see and hear in the media and the indoctrination that passes for public education for the last thirty years or so that they are IGNORANT enough to think that the government can cure every little problem with a law. We've got a victim mentality going here in this country ( Everybody is a victim of something ) We all sit here on our collective a$$es and want someone else to handle the difficult stuff for us....That's a cop out I.M.H.O. This is not a big deal ( what happened in Santa Monica ) It's a terrible accident....The big deal is how we will ALL be affected by the laws shoved down our throats by the hysteria whipped up by the media and an all to willing and sadly uneducated public!


Redundant laws: There are already laws governing ALL drivers Young and old.

How many times have you seen a single car accident caused by a young male driver?

How many times have you seen a non english speaking person driving worse than any old person could possibly drive because they can't read the signs? ( I mentioned no race here intentionally )

Laugh if you want to....But this country is slowly devolving into a minor police state. The govrnment is gradually taking more and more freedom away from us in the name of personal safety and so called security. You'd better enjoy your freedom now because you're gradually allowing it to be taken from you and you're not even concerned about it!

Ok, my eyes are now open and I see the black helicopters circling overhead. :farting:

The issue I have is that the DMV isn't effective in controlling who gets (and keeps) a license. If you can read line 4 and parrellel park, you get a license.

My reform of the DMV would include young drivers too. Someone posted here that they had 3 accidents before the age of 21. After the first accident he should have been placed on a restricted license for 2 years. If you get more than 1 point in 2 years you're restricted.

We can test peoples reaction times via a simple computer program. It wouldn't be anything more read line 4, now watch this screen and press the right pedal when you see a red light, etc... If they are border line, we take them out and see if the can parellel park.

I would extend my reform to the highway patrol. Since the '70's and the 'speed kills' rhetoric began, they spend 90% of their effort seeking speeders. Sure it's easy for them to sit on the side of the road and trap you. But what about impeding the flow of traffic? Thats against the law. But I've seen highway patrol cars pass on the right, rather than pull a rolling road block over and ticket them.

I don't want more laws. I want all of the existing laws enforced. And I want the exisitng DMV laws improved. Because right now, my freedom of happiness is being taken away by not enforcing existing laws.

Is that really advocating a police state? Or is it advocating responsible government?

HotRodSaint
07-20-03, 10:38 AM
The thing that worries me is that we are being spoon fed our ideas on these matters by a powerful media that dosen't always have the best interest of this country in mind.

There are still a few of us who can think. Not many, but a few.

the Sandman
07-20-03, 10:40 AM
The thing that worries me is that we are being spoon fed our ideas on these matters by a powerful media that dosen't always have the best interest of this country in mind. Of course blind people shouldn't drive...But if you let the government stick their foot in the door eventually you'll have a housguest that you never wanted.A perfect case in point is the commercial drivers license. The government wanted to get " Bad big rig drivers " off the road, So they made some noise about safety and drugs and made a BIG DEAL out of a few traffic accidents and got the public all worked up about it. ( With the help of the willing media ) So They got drug testing ( A good thing ) And then they went on and got the C.D.L. ( commercial drivers licence ) which lets the feds set the standards for testing of commercial drivers. ( Sounds good, Doesn't it? ) The down side is That they made the test so hard that a lot of really good truck drivers couldn't pass it. They've got a lot more terrible truck drivers out there now because they can pass a test but they have no common sense when it comes to getting an 80,000 pound truck down the road. The trucking industry is starving for drivers but some of the good ole boys that used to make great truck drivers just can't seem to get passed the testing. BUT! The government saved us from all the " Bad Big Rig Drivers " So we should all feel better now....Every time you let the government have to much say in things they make them worse!Oh, I don't blame you for being worried. Government intrusion is a real problem - more so wherever the Democrats hold sway. It's a question of balancing "personal freedom" and "public interest". And sometimes the balancing looks more like juggling.... There's no denying that the politicians and government officials have their own agendas and very often go too far (and often in the wrong direction). Your trucker analogy is a good example. I'm no expert in the subject, but I always thought *most* semi drivers were pretty good (when not sleep deprived) but that many of the rigs they drive were in need of attention - overloaded, bad brakes, bad tires, etc..

I think we need legislation to keep impaired public officials out of power! :histeric:

Nevada seems to agree with you KC. We are actually having a constructive dialogue here.:shocked2: