: Why do so many people do it the hard way.



codewize
01-13-10, 12:49 AM
Lately so many people have been doing different repair job that would normally require engine removal without removing the engine.

Dropping the cradle on these N* cars is an hours job or so and saves countless headaches. Not to mention is provide numerous opportunities while the drive train is on the ground.

It's interesting because even back in the day I thought nothing of yanking the engine out of my camaro over the weekend for nothing more than a good cleaning and a gasket here and there just because it was easier than busting my hands all up.

I realize these are far more complex than a camaro but it's really not that big of a deal.

ponyboyt
01-13-10, 01:08 AM
might depend on the case. So far every one ive done we have dropped the cradle. My newest project is a 99 STS thats getting an engine rebuild. Maybe im looking at it the wrong way but.... this car is so nice, everything works so well.. i dont want to mess with anything. I only want the engine out. The engine is getting sent away to get done * cause i want it done right, this one isnt an experiment. Since it will be gone at least a few days, i want to be able to move the car back outside the shop as soon as the engine is out.

Makes sense to me, but like i said, maybe im lookin at it wrong.

YueIBM
01-13-10, 01:47 AM
I pulled my front camshaft by cutting a piece of the radiator support to clear the valve cover instead of dropping the cradle because my garage is fairly small and my driveway's on a slope.

Also, the subframe bolts look pretty big and hard to get off after 226,000 miles in Michigan. The Seville STS is a low enough car that I couldn't see much without jacking up the car and that was further discouragement from dropping the subframe. Brake lines also looked rusty and I didn't want to disturb them.

If I had the hoist and a bigger garage, I think I'd try dropping the cradle.

Good question! -Yue

Krashed989
01-13-10, 06:03 AM
... Brake lines also looked rusty and I didn't want to disturb them...

So you're waiting for them to rupture (putting you, anyone in the car and anyone on the road around you in danger) before you change them?... I've had a brake line rupture which caused me to rear end someone. It's not fun. The line didn't even look very rusty. Don't forget that brake fluid is hygroscopic (ie. it absorbs water). That means that your lines can be rusting on the inside as well, especially if you haven't had the brake fluid flushed out in a while.

I think it's better to be safe than sorry on that kind of thing...

When you change them, make sure they/you spray paint the new one(s), that way they last a lot longer.

bigtone
01-13-10, 08:56 AM
Lately so many people have been doing different repair job that would normally require engine removal without removing the engine.

Dropping the cradle on these N* cars is an hours job or so and saves countless headaches. Not to mention is provide numerous opportunities while the drive train is on the ground.

It's interesting because even back in the day I thought nothing of yanking the engine out of my camaro over the weekend for nothing more than a good cleaning and a gasket here and there just because it was easier than busting my hands all up.

I realize these are far more complex than a camaro but it's really not that big of a deal.

Everybody's situation is different. I have an attached 2 car garage but with 2 motorcycles, bike lift and other assorted items I did not believe I had the room to lift the front and slide the cradle out from under the car, while still keeping the doors closed here in a PA winter. I pulled many engines in my Challengers and Cuda's I used to own out the top, can't compare that to a FWD Caddy. Besides, like I mentioned before, it really wasn't that hard to do the HG with the engine in the car

YueIBM
01-13-10, 10:08 AM
So you're waiting for them to rupture (putting you, anyone in the car and anyone on the road around you in danger) before you change them?... I've had a brake line rupture which caused me to rear end someone. It's not fun. The line didn't even look very rusty. Don't forget that brake fluid is hygroscopic (ie. it absorbs water). That means that your lines can be rusting on the inside as well, especially if you haven't had the brake fluid flushed out in a while.

I think it's better to be safe than sorry on that kind of thing...

When you change them, make sure they/you spray paint the new one(s), that way they last a lot longer.

That's a pretty good point. I'll try sanding it down to see how bad they are after figuring out why the valve keepers fell off. I never thought about painting them!

Sevillian273
01-13-10, 11:58 AM
So, just curious... How does one pull the cradle in their garage? How do you get the car that high to clear the engine without a lift? How much do you need? 2-3 feet off the ground?

tateos
01-13-10, 12:41 PM
So, just curious... How does one pull the cradle in their garage? How do you get the car that high to clear the engine without a lift? How much do you need? 2-3 feet off the ground?

You leave the cradle near ground level, and use an engine hoist to lift the body high enough to roll the cradle out form under the body - yeah, it's around 2-3 feet.

It was a lot more than an hour's work for me, but maybe I'm slow.

STSS
01-13-10, 12:45 PM
I did it in my garage with a standard 2 ton cherry picker. I had the bottom of the front bumper at my forehead (about 6 ft) in order to clear the cradle. You can do it without lifting it as high if you remove the springs/suspension from the cradle before you pull it, but I had plenty of clearance to lift the body.

ponyboyt
01-13-10, 01:11 PM
have done 7 out the bottom now. First one i did on my own took a week lol... now we have a bigger shop and some backyard tools. Last 2 we did in under an hour. Im hoping the next one (doing my 97 AGAIN!) will still take under an hour. After that.... pulling the 99 out the top... should be fun :O

zonie77
01-13-10, 04:24 PM
I pulled my front camshaft by cutting a piece of the radiator support to clear the valve cover instead of dropping the cradle because my garage is fairly small and my driveway's on a slope.

Also, the subframe bolts look pretty big and hard to get off after 226,000 miles in Michigan. The Seville STS is a low enough car that I couldn't see much without jacking up the car and that was further discouragement from dropping the subframe. Brake lines also looked rusty and I didn't want to disturb them.

If I had the hoist and a bigger garage, I think I'd try dropping the cradle.

Good question! -Yue

You should not have to remove the brake lines. ABS module and calipers stay with the body.

cl1986
01-13-10, 06:05 PM
well for starters, these guys dropping the craddle in an hour is just bogus

Hell it took me almost an hour just to get the wheels off, battery out and all the fluids drained

If your just unbolting it, fuilds running all over the place, nuts and bolts all a mess, maybe two people could drop one in an hour if you had done it before

ponyboyt
01-13-10, 06:13 PM
98 deville in 40 minutes mang.

Its amazing what you can do when you are scrapping the rest of the car.

ejguillot
01-13-10, 06:45 PM
You should not have to remove the brake lines. ABS module and calipers stay with the body.

Not in my experience with the 2000 Seville (YueIBM's 99 would be the same way). The brake lines to the rear are between the cradle and the tie rod + right axle, it's not doable.

Sevillian273
01-13-10, 08:41 PM
I'd have to agree with cl.... I think just getting set up would take an hour! Especially if you plan to put said cradle back into a vehicle.

codewize
01-13-10, 10:32 PM
I'm sure it's more than an hour for a regular guy like ourselves but I think a mechanic whose done it before can probably do it inside 90 minutes easily.

You leave the cradle near ground level, and use an engine hoist to lift the body high enough to roll the cradle out form under the body - yeah, it's around 2-3 feet.

It was a lot more than an hour's work for me, but maybe I'm slow.

zonie77
01-14-10, 09:36 PM
Not in my experience with the 2000 Seville (YueIBM's 99 would be the same way). The brake lines to the rear are between the cradle and the tie rod + right axle, it's not doable.


I have not done a 2000...yet, so you are probably right. 97 is the newest.

stoveguyy
01-15-10, 06:06 PM
lift the body with a cherry picker. are the back tires on the ground? when the front bumper is 5-6ft off the ground, where is the back bumper? seems to me a seville would pivot the rear body on the bumper and the back tires would be in the air?

cl1986
01-15-10, 06:39 PM
lift the body with a cherry picker. are the back tires on the ground? when the front bumper is 5-6ft off the ground, where is the back bumper? seems to me a seville would pivot the rear body on the bumper and the back tires would be in the air?

umm....the front bumper only needs to be about 2 feet higher than normal, maybe 2.5'

you lower the car onto the cradle (without wheels) then lift back up (maybe 3' if you include the 6-8" you dropped it in the first place)

Sevillian273
01-16-10, 12:19 AM
:postpics:

cl1986
01-16-10, 12:16 PM
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m92/JodeanSS/94%20eldorado/100_0906-1.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m92/JodeanSS/94%20eldorado/100_0904.jpg

97EldoCoupe
01-17-10, 11:29 AM
Any Caddy tech can have the cradle dropped in an hour, give or take.

I've scrapped a few beat up cars to salvage the drivetrains. Used the forklift to raise the body. Very simple. Cut the brake lines, unbolt the steering, suspension, cut the rad hoses, cut the exhaust, remove the 6 subframe bolts, it's really quite easy. It's another story altogether if you plan to re-install. With the Ontario/Michigan/NY cars, rust plays a big factor. Rusted brake lines cannot be re-used. Rusty bolts snap. Some sub-frame mounts rust to $hit. Snapped bolts, rusty bolt-heads, rusty brake lines, all of this plays a huge factor in time.

Why do I pull the engines out the top?

1. 2.5 hours out the top. At this point most the engine has no intake or acessories bolted on, one cam cover is removed. It's ready to remove the heads.
2. A/C does not have to be touched - no evacuation necessary, or recharging later.
3. I don't have to bleed the brakes later
4. I don't need to mess with the steering
5. I don't have to mess with suspension.
6. Most local cars have rust nightmares. The less brake lines I have to mess with, the better off I am.
7. The car drives exactly the way it did before, no re-alignment necessary.
8. I have 100% access to do the rear main seal and the case/oil pan seals without any added work.
9. 4-5 hours to re-install from the engine on a stand/cart to a running car.

Now I'm spending more time with the removal/reinstallation - but also, anyone who drops the cradle still has to remove accessories, ignition coils, intake, manifold, brackets, etc. I've already got all of that done by the time the engine is out.

My way is not for everyone. If all you need to do is the HG's (and not the bottom end re-seal procedure) and your car is not a bucket of rust, definitely. Lower the cradle. But this is what I do:

$2,200 gets the engine pulled out the top. It gets torn down, block / head surfaces are cleaned and inspected, drilled and tapped for the studs, the bottom end is re-sealed with new crankshaft end seals (main seals), the engine is flipped back up, studs are installed, heads are installed, all timing components / cover are washed down and inspected, re-oiled, re-installed, timing is re-set, engine is re-assembled with the water pump crossover & new seals, and re-installed in the car. All brackets and accessories / intake/ coils, etc. are all bolted back up, everything is double or tripple checked for proper torque, fluids are added, oil system is primed, and the hood and RF wheel are re-installed as well as all of the splash sheilds. The engine is given about a 1/2 hour or so test time, a visual leak inspection and then it's set to go. There's about 10 hours that goes into the engine once it's out on the stand. A very thorough cleaning of the insides is key - especially with the baked on oil grime that maybe one in five engines has.

I do the bottom end re-seal on every engine. It HAS to be done- unless your car is one of the lucky few that has already had it done under warranty recently, or miraculously doesn't leak.

stoveguyy
01-18-10, 06:11 PM
97EC, you leave the a/c lines attached to the compressor? you must be damn good to get the bracket on the compressor rear off so quick. i have done a few compressors and i still hate that. and you leave the radiator in?

STSS
01-19-10, 10:50 AM
I may have had to lift my car a little higher than most.... I had limited room in front of the car, so the legs of the hoist were sticking under the cradle and I had to keep the cradle up high enough to clear the legs... I still dont think 2-3 feet would clear it even with the cradle on the ground, but I needed 5-6. With the front end that high in the air, the tailpipes were just starting to be pushed into the bumper, but the car was no where near pivoting on the bumper.... I couldnt imagine the damage that would do. I will have to find the pics I took.

tateos
01-19-10, 02:59 PM
I removed my struts from the knuckles, so my body did not have to be raised all that high

97EldoCoupe
01-23-10, 10:34 AM
I do leave the compressor lines attatched to the compressor. I also do pull the radiator without pulling the condenser. This is a pain on the 98-03 Sevilles but it works if you're very careful and patient.

The car I have in the shop right now is a rusty one. All four exhaust bolt heads had to get the plasma cutter treatment...

The A/C compressor isn't too bad but I do like the way they upgraded the accessory mounting in '98. 3 less brackets to mess with. When they eliminated the liquid cooled alternator in '01 I believe it was they also eliminated another bolt from the alternator (to the head).

cl1986
01-23-10, 02:20 PM
I removed my struts from the knuckles, so my body did not have to be raised all that high

the struts only stick a couple inches above the engine when swung out, that doesnt really help much.....maybe 2 or 3 inches, definetly not 5' off the ground, not sure what he was doing that he had to go that high

RodneyPierce
01-24-10, 12:00 AM
97EC, send me a PM with your messenger info in it, or clear some of yours so i can PM you. haha

tateos
01-25-10, 01:22 PM
the struts only stick a couple inches above the engine when swung out, that doesnt really help much.....maybe 2 or 3 inches, definetly not 5' off the ground, not sure what he was doing that he had to go that high

Yeah - I took mine off, mostly to get them out of my way, and to help avoid their added weight from yanking on the drive shafts enough to pull the inner CV joints apart; I did wire the knuckles to the cradle, but had an inner CV joint implode another time, and wanted to take no chances.

32vmonte
01-26-10, 12:14 AM
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo331/9895monte/IMG_0137.jpg

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo331/9895monte/IMG_0139.jpg

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo331/9895monte/IMG_0140.jpg



I did the actual pulling of the motor in right at an hour. Everything was disconnected before we started the days before. I went outside opened the garage pulled the hoist out and the impact and dropped the four bolts and that was it rolled it on a motorcycle jack. It took me a good two days of leisurely work to find and disconnect everything first tho.