I was looking in my FSM and after looking at the stamped rockers the 4.9L has, they appear to be almost identical to the Oldsmobile stamped rockers.

Intereresting comment, the Ford 5.0L Roller Rockers are nearly a bolt in to an Olds V8. Just need to fabricate guide plates to keep things from moving sideways.

The staggered arrangement might allow a BB Chevy guideplate to be modified to work.

Anyone with thoughts? Comments?

The intent is twofold.

1. Reduce friction to improve mileage (I get 23 city/highway on a average, 28-30 highway, unless its windy, then all bets are off!).

2. Once I get another set of heads to port and flow bench, I will need the capabilities to go higher lift and not have the high friction of the rocker/rocker fulcrum setup like Olds designed.

Ive read on Fiero forums that it is an easy job.....at least I think so.......this engine and the 5.0 Ford is actually very similar.....but could the 5.0 Chevy/Pontiac engine's be used.

little diffrence between GM 5.0 and 5.7 only the bore and maybe stroke are diffrent (memerory problems again) our 4.x series is very diffrent from the SBC

roller valvetrain would be interesting keep me posted for sure ! i might be going thru the valvetrain soon anyway , got a slow lifter somewhere in there . may as well do the rest while im there ......too bad im not gonna swap the cam with a new one (too damned hard to pull engine)

the 4.x engines use a 1.6:1 ratio. i went to jegs one day and made a few comparisons, and found that the small block ford harland-sharp roller rockers w/1.6:1 ratio come the closest to the caddy 4.x.

Pontiacs used 1.65:1's on Ram Air IV engines, and BBC and BBF 385 Series (aka, 429/460) have 1.7x available. All are available as roller rockers in the aftermarket from Crane and Comp Cams.

Might be a nice alternative to a cam regrind. Pick up 3-4 degrees more duration and a little more lift. With the roller cam already, there is little chance of any potential damage there from the higher valvetrain loads.

Has anyone swapped in a bigger cam on a 4.5 or 4.9? Say .420 to .450 lift? Anyone flow the heads to see if there is any benefit above .400 lift? My expertise has been Pontiac V8's, and Pontiac worked hard at awesome LOW LIFT flow, so a cam larger than .410 lift was rarely beneficial, yet still a "067 cam", 273/289 duration and .406 lift cam made 360 hp and 500 lb ft torque (gross) anyway. Any higher duration than that was considered too much for an automatic and was relegated to stickshift only. That cam isn't too far off from the Cad 4.9 cam. Even the vaunted Ram Air IV cam was only .470 lift, and .516 with 1.65 rockers.

Either way I am hoping to get a set of 4.5 or 4.9 heads with intake to work on flow benching. Anyone have any flow numbers for the Cad 4.x?

Thanks!
Tom

Pontiacs used 1.65:1's on Ram Air IV engines, and BBC and BBF 385 Series (aka, 429/460) have 1.7x available. All are available as roller rockers in the aftermarket from Crane and Comp Cams.

Might be a nice alternative to a cam regrind. Pick up 3-4 degrees more duration and a little more lift. With the roller cam already, there is little chance of any potential damage there from the higher valvetrain loads.

Has anyone swapped in a bigger cam on a 4.5 or 4.9? Say .420 to .450 lift? Anyone flow the heads to see if there is any benefit above .400 lift? My expertise has been Pontiac V8's, and Pontiac worked hard at awesome LOW LIFT flow, so a cam larger than .410 lift was rarely beneficial, yet still a "067 cam", 273/289 duration and .406 lift cam made 360 hp and 500 lb ft torque (gross) anyway. Any higher duration than that was considered too much for an automatic and was relegated to stickshift only. That cam isn't too far off from the Cad 4.9 cam. Even the vaunted Ram Air IV cam was only .470 lift, and .516 with 1.65 rockers.

Either way I am hoping to get a set of 4.5 or 4.9 heads with intake to work on flow benching. Anyone have any flow numbers for the Cad 4.x?

Thanks!
Tom

the 4.9 cam lift is at .396 exhaust and .384 intake @ 1.6:1 ratio.
heads will have to be re-worked. there is only so much tolerance for that kind of change, because you will have to worry about spring bind and such. also, you will most certainly have to have the ECM reprogramed for the change in lift. larger fuel injectors...the list goes on. but not to worry, i am going to do this sort of thing to my 4.9 too...just need the $$$ for the machining.

the 4.9 cam lift is at .396 exhaust and .384 intake @ 1.6:1 ratio.
heads will have to be re-worked. there is only so much tolerance for that kind of change, because you will have to worry about spring bind and such. also, you will most certainly have to have the ECM reprogramed for the change in lift. larger fuel injectors...the list goes on. but not to worry, i am going to do this sort of thing to my 4.9 too...just need the $$$ for the machining.

So I am not the only nutty one out there with a Cadillac?

As for fuel injectors, the Cad 4.9 uses 18lb injectors. I am running Ford 5.0L Mustang injectors on the rear bank with no issues whatsoever (I haven't got around to swapping the front bank...). They are 19lb. flow rate. *(computer is happy, integrator/integrator block learn is close to center, almost exact same as before injector swap, still getting 28-29 highway and 23-25 city/highway mpg). Chevy 350 TPI injectors are 23 lb, and are also a drop in. As long as you keep things mild in cam overlap the 19lb injectors will be solid for up to around 220 hp, else you need larger.

If you intend to run a super or turbo charger, then you need the flow rate you need to support that HP+amount of boost to compensate for the pressure that will "push" the fuel back up the injector. So say you have 10 psi boost and intend on needing 30 lb injectors for your 300 hp or so, then you would need 40 lb injectors. Yes, my thoughts are mild Turbo + head and cam improvements.

Why Turbo? Simple. Camshaft selection is not good, turbos LOVE mild cams, and all you would need is higher lift and improved ports.

Now, the question remains, how much power can the 4T60E handle? Can I upgrade it to the 4T65E? Or beef it up?

Thanks!
Tom

not only the trans but the wimpy valvetrain of the 4.x needs to be heavily upgraded before you starting throwing money in a custom turbo. i'm running 19lb camaro injectors and my boy illumina is running a corvette adjustable fuel reg. that probably spits out more fuel than a 19lb injector would at normal duty. i once saw a modded 4.5 claiming 300hp hooked to a tremec 5sp. where in the world did i see that?! anything is possible with the money.

you can change splines in your tranny to get lower gears. also, you can get various shift kits for the "60" trans.

not only the trans but the wimpy valvetrain of the 4.x needs to be heavily upgraded before you starting throwing money in a custom turbo. i'm running 19lb camaro injectors and my boy illumina is running a corvette adjustable fuel reg. that probably spits out more fuel than a 19lb injector would at normal duty. i once saw a modded 4.5 claiming 300hp hooked to a tremec 5sp. where in the world did i see that?! anything is possible with the money.

What cam specs on the 4.5L and the (gag!) 4.1L?

Are the cams interchangeable? 4.1L's are typically not worth the ground they are buried in, but if you can use them for core parts like heads, cams, etc, they might be good junkyard fodder.

For me, the initial will be getting some heads to "play" with, and then go from there. See what they flow, and what makes a difference. And nothing much before. Ideally I would like to see what it would take to adapt a TPI intake to the Cad V8. Just the upper half and tubes. Mod or somehow adapt a new lower half with pieces of another intake that is close enough. But that is after it is determined what is the weak point.

Were there ANY Aluminum heads made and shipped? Or is that just a dream?

Anyone in SE WI area?

Tom

What cam specs on the 4.5L and the (gag!) 4.1L?

Are the cams interchangeable? 4.1L's are typically not worth the ground they are buried in, but if you can use them for core parts like heads, cams, etc, they might be good junkyard fodder.

For me, the initial will be getting some heads to "play" with, and then go from there. See what they flow, and what makes a difference. And nothing much before. Ideally I would like to see what it would take to adapt a TPI intake to the Cad V8. Just the upper half and tubes. Mod or somehow adapt a new lower half with pieces of another intake that is close enough. But that is after it is determined what is the weak point.

Were there ANY Aluminum heads made and shipped? Or is that just a dream?

Anyone in SE WI area?

Tom

no alum heads made! check out fiero forums. i've seen a tpi intake on the 4.9. the intake bores can be bored out on the intake. an adapter was fabbed. the coolant ports on the 4.1 will not match up with the 4.5 or 4.9. i really odn't think that 4.5s will go on a 4.9. have you seen the asg company? they sell modded 4.9s huge hp and torque. check out the specs on their motors!

also, if you need a 4.9 to "play" with, i've got an extra one sitting in my shop... will sell for the right money! 120k on it, but ran like a sewing maching...until it broke timing chain! easy easy fix tho!

no alum heads made! check out fiero forums. i've seen a tpi intake on the 4.9. the intake bores can be bored out on the intake. an adapter was fabbed. the coolant ports on the 4.1 will not match up with the 4.5 or 4.9. i really odn't think that 4.5s will go on a 4.9. have you seen the asg company? they sell modded 4.9s huge hp and torque. check out the specs on their motors!

also, if you need a 4.9 to "play" with, i've got an extra one sitting in my shop... will sell for the right money! 120k on it, but ran like a sewing maching...until it broke timing chain! easy easy fix tho!


yeah, i've been trying to find the exact specs for the ASG myself, so that i have a clue as to what i want to do to my 4.9 when i start the project, but cannot seem to find any more than basic output numbers for power and such. and i highly doubt that they will freely give them to me if i call them. then maybe...

also, 4.1/4.5 heads are NOT interchangable to the 4.9. whole different parameters there to play with there.

Ive tried numerous times to get in contact with them and have never succeded.

My guess would be for the 4.5L guys, grab a 4.9L cam, might help move the powerband up some. Not necessarily MORE power, but at a higher RPM. Which for a 100+mph blast, can help.

So likely the cams for the 4.1L/4.5L and 4.9L are the same?

Just thinking of a cheap source for a core....

no, a 4.9 is a stroked 4.5. i tell yah, i've got a cheap core! shipping would be a bia though.

unless you are spending enless money on this car, it weighs a lot so you should concentrate on maximizing torque... that's what really drives the car anyway. or usable horsepower. it wouldn't hurt to ssttrreettcchh that powerband out a little!!

cams for the 4.1 are not going to work for any other 4.x because they are not made for roller lifters that you will see in the 4.5/4.9. the lift and other parameters will be similar though. one of the problems for the 4.1 was a soft cam profile for the flat tappet lifters. because of the tendancy to overheat, the cam would take some of that heat and cause the tappets/lobes to wear prematurely.

no, a 4.9 is a stroked 4.5. i tell yah, i've got a cheap core! shipping would be a bia though.

unless you are spending enless money on this car, it weighs a lot so you should concentrate on maximizing torque... that's what really drives the car anyway. or usable horsepower. it wouldn't hurt to ssttrreettcchh that powerband out a little!!


the fiero guys use a ford cam profile for the 5.0. i would think with the increased duration, they will make more power a little higher. the profile for the 4.9 is a 278 intake duration. the ford profile they use is 282. should make mroe power up high.

not only the trans but the wimpy valvetrain of the 4.x needs to be heavily upgraded before you starting throwing money in a custom turbo. i'm running 19lb camaro injectors and my boy illumina is running a corvette adjustable fuel reg. that probably spits out more fuel than a 19lb injector would at normal duty. i once saw a modded 4.5 claiming 300hp hooked to a tremec 5sp. where in the world did i see that?! anything is possible with the money.

you can change splines in your tranny to get lower gears. also, you can get various shift kits for the "60" trans.


yeah, that regulator sprung a leak or something. i keep having an exessive cranking condition. i need to check the pressure on her to see if im right.

My initial thoughts (based on what airflow testing will show on the 4.9L heads) are that leave the duration close to stock, maybe up some, but lift is a huge factor in determining HP. Duration moves the power band up and down.

So, try this. Up the duration to say 285/305 gross (keep it to no higher than 204 to 208 @ 0.050) and then install advanced 4 degrees. Go with as steep lobe profile as you can get away with (rollers allow a lot), and the bring in lobe sep to around 112-113. Remember, area under the curve matters here. Under NO circumstances allow the overlap to exceed 54 degrees (or the computer will be eternally confused and emissions are gone, and the ECM will try to compensate). Rollers also help a lot in keeping overlap down.

Tom

wonder what kind of turbo would work ....i have a t-28 from my sr20det kit laying around .......

What are the 5.0 Mustangs using?????? Vortech seems to be popular and with some custom fabricating I bet the 4.9 could hold it.

i have seen a wab page where a guy did a 4.9 w/turbo in his citation. he used the mitsubishi te40h or whatever from a lebaron gtc or something like that. i have the same turbo laying around too. it should produce 5-7 psi. just enough not to blow the cylinder sleeves out of the 4.9 liter.

yah , i need to look at his page again ...just wondering if the compressor side makes enough volume to build 7psi on 300 cubes @ WOT...any higher than 7psi would make me concerned ...

I would also wonder if a intercooler would be a good idea , these things are so easy to pre ingnite that a hot aircharge may be asking too much

If the trannys in these cars werent so weak id jump on this with boath feet

I gotta do more reasearch on this one ....

yah , i need to look at his page again ...just wondering if the compressor side makes enough volume to build 7psi on 300 cubes @ WOT...any higher than 7psi would make me concerned ...

I would also wonder if a intercooler would be a good idea , these things are so easy to pre ingnite that a hot aircharge may be asking too much

If the trannys in these cars werent so weak id jump on this with boath feet

I gotta do more reasearch on this one ....


the trannys can, just need mucho dinero...i have priced the tranny around town to the tune of 3500$$$! these guys also claim they can put a posi into the tranny too. all said, these guys claim it can handle 450 ponies. sounds good in my book. these guys told me that they redo these for GM FWD cars w/superchargers. they say they now run low 11s with mods to the chargers and motors too.

the trannys can, just need mucho dinero...i have priced the tranny around town to the tune of 3500$$$! these guys also claim they can put a posi into the tranny too. all said, these guys claim it can handle 450 ponies. sounds good in my book. these guys told me that they redo these for GM FWD cars w/superchargers. they say they now run low 11s with mods to the chargers and motors too.


450 HP with and without slicks, that is the question. BIG BIG difference!! As long as you never hook up............

Hence the need for the 4T80E. Same bolt pattern? Swappable for a 4T60E? I have heard rumors that Cadillac was screwing around with a 400 HP Northstar some years back with a supercharger on it.

yah , i need to look at his page again ...just wondering if the compressor side makes enough volume to build 7psi on 300 cubes @ WOT...any higher than 7psi would make me concerned ...

I would also wonder if a intercooler would be a good idea , these things are so easy to pre ingnite that a hot aircharge may be asking too much

If the trannys in these cars werent so weak id jump on this with boath feet

I gotta do more reasearch on this one ....

I would look into the size turbo the GN guys use. Keep it mild, not spinning to 6500+rpm and it might be a nice size. The 301 Turbo V8 turbo was a TBO305, .82 A/R. In reality, it was better suited for a 231 V6. But in mine I was putting 300hp to the ground. 14.21@97.3, 4030lbs, 3.08 gears. Through the anemic 301 heads (stock long block, no boost changes, just a stock 301 with opened up exhuast and recurved ignition) Ask any Mustang GT that raced me, they were not happy campers. Never lost to a GT, tied a 86-87 Vette from 60-130 mph for acceleration, tied a Porche 928 from 55-100 acclereration. Turbos are where is at. Forget superchargers. Not worth the limitations. And all that was on a bad wastegate only limiting me to 7.5 psi boost. I won't get into how it ran when I disconnected the wastegate that one late night....But it did stay together....

I feel that a 4.9L Cad would be a solid performer with a turbo. And a wonderful daily driver. With the awesome low end torque you would have an unbeatable mid range acceleration. The low end would cover any low end turbo lag issues. High end would be brutal. All this with a stock cam. If the 301 Turbo did that good with the lousy heads it had, and a 250 gross duration and .350 lift cam, imagine what the Cad 4.9 could do. I would expect a very Cadillac drivable 300 hp V8, and no less.

Tom

Find Pennock's Fiero Forum. Some of these guys are awesome at building and tweaking the 4.9. We swap them into our Fiero's. The guy with the turbo's screen name is PBJ and he has put together a turbo/4.9 combo that just broke into 11 second times on the 1/4 mile. Also Rockcrawl has been doing swaps for years and has amounted a vast knowledge of the 4.9, he built a 4.9 5speed setup with a custom intake with a corvette throttle body on it and I think he just broke into the 12's in the 1/4 mile. i'll see if I can find pictures..Rockcrawl also reburns the ecm chips, removes passkey, pemoves rev limiter, removers top speed shutoff........

Dragon1/Brian

Here's a link to the turbo 4.9 build that eventually ran just in the 11 seconds

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023354.html

Here's PBJ's turbo motor
http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/PBJ1.jpg

Here's Rockcrawl's built up 4.9, high lift cam roller rockers, corvatte throttle body.......
http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/Rockcrawl1.jpg

Here's my 4.9 Fiero, stock with 4T60E tranny
http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/Mvc-040s_6.jpg

http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/Mvc-043s_3.jpg

Here's my exhaust...2 1/2" stainless pipe from Jegs, high flow cat, Flowmaster 80 muffler out to Caddy STS tips.
http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/Mvc-042s_4.jpg

Here's my Fiero
http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages/Mvc-033s.jpg

Dragon1/Brian...I am Dragon1 on the Fiero forum also.
You guys could ask your 4.9 questions there too....

one day ill have an 88gt with t tops done that way ...one day .....