: Cts-V in bad weather?



Jagxf
01-04-10, 01:31 AM
Hey hows it going, my lease is going to be up in 5 months on my xf and was looking into getting a cts-v this time, it's cheaper and better but you guys who own it already know that. What i am wondering is how does the car drive on wet roads,snow?

I know corvettes cant be driven more then 2 mph without sliding and hydroplaning, always wanted to get one but driving on wet roads makes me cringe on a corvette lol. Thanks appreciate it.

sikohsix
01-04-10, 02:03 AM
Only speaking in my experience here: had it out after the snowstorms last week, a bit of slush on the ground. He slid around like a pig on a sled:helpless:. But that was on the stock Michelins. My 10 yr old daughter loved it. Not me. I don't feel like going in for a g-note and better to have him shod in winter rubber, so I've garaged it. Read thru some threads here. Some of the V guys seem to have success w/ dedicated winter tires. Good luck on coppin' a V.

Jagxf
01-04-10, 02:10 AM
More worried about wet roads from the rain not snow to be honest, don't really want to get a car that is a headache when it rained nearly the whole summer here in nyc.

sikohsix
01-04-10, 02:38 AM
Well I'm NYC as well. The time or two I've had the V out in the rain was OK. But taking these city corners on the wet asphalt at anything over 20mph is a no no. Tail wags out like a shake dancer. Straight line braking, no hard takeoffs and easy on the throttle. Much like you'd treat a corvette in similar road conditions. Theres nothing like taking off from a stoplight up at 1500-2000rpm and having those back wheels spinning and the V going sideways. Been there.

Jagxf
01-04-10, 02:42 AM
Yeah which is why i wish american car companies realized that should make AWD cars, because a customer like me for example wont buy a car if it drives like crap on wet roads. Wish the cts-v was awd or a vette for that matter, i know some people don't like it but look at the GTR for example. Anyway thanks appreciate it.

neuronbob
01-04-10, 06:01 AM
I daily drive my V. In wet conditions during the summer I had no problems--the stock Michelin PS2s are awesome in the rain. The only issue is that you can't take off at full throttle in the rain or Stabilitrak will activate. If you drive the car like a normal Cadi in the rain, you will be just fine. It's all about modulating that throttle.

Snow is a bit of a challenge because of the wide rear wheels but with winter tires, and some common sense (e.g. not driving when you just got 18 inches--no low-ground clearance car can do well in that), you will be fine as well.

Sure AWD would help, but with RWD it's all in your choice of rubber and how you choose to drive.

commander112
01-04-10, 06:30 AM
This in no way should be an American car discussion. The Vette or V will work just fine in rain or in snow for that matter if properly driven. The Vette and V both come shod in summer rubber and are work great on that rubber until about 40 degrees. Below that and you should consider winter rubber. There is a reason for only putting sticky summer rubber on cars like these, with all-season tires the cars don't particularily handle well in any season. So a choice needs to be made. As for AWD, the V comes in weighing 4300 pounds and adding another 300 pounds for all wheel drive would really make this car handle like a pig. There is a reason the M5 is not AWD. If you really want AWD in a CTS the choice is available but not with 556 hp. There is a very nice 320 hp car available in AWD. The AWD car is not now nor will it ever be the best handling CTS out there even if you added the 556 hp motor. Life is filled with compromises and this in just one of them.

garfin
01-04-10, 07:14 AM
A friend of mine works in Ottawa and lives in Mississauga, which is just west of Toronto. It's about a 4.5 hr. drive each way. He does the round trip pretty well every weekend in his C6 - with dedicated snow tires. He's had the C6 now for a couple of years and before that, his DD was a '98 Pontiac Trans Am which saw similar duty. He has had no issues doing this in the winter with either car.
I suspect that anyone living in a climate where learning to drive a RWD in the winter was your only choice, way back when, is probably somewhat less uncomfortable driving the V in the winter.
As others have said, it shouldn't be a problem with the right tires and good judgement.
I'm hoping my V will arrive closer to spring, but I will be looking to install winterr tires on it for next winter.

Best regards,

Elie

Jagxf
01-04-10, 07:55 AM
See the problem is i have spoke to corvette owners, read a bunch of corvette forums and most corvette drivers are scared to drive their vette in the rain because they keep hydroplaning or losing control even while driving normally. Maybe it's not true but i remember driving a c5 vette in the rain, if you did not go extremely gently on the gas you would start fishtailing. Just want a safe car for bad weather, probably not a good idea to go with a RWD. Really too bad though the cts-v is a great car. Thanks again.

jvp
01-04-10, 08:32 AM
What i am wondering is how does the car drive on wet roads,snow?

I know corvettes cant be driven more then 2 mph without sliding and hydroplaning, always wanted to get one but driving on wet roads makes me cringe on a corvette lol. Thanks appreciate it.

Personally, I think you're asking a leading question. You've already made up your mind and are looking for confirmation.

Firstly, the V drives just fine in the wet. I've driven mine through absolute downpours and have had no problem at all. Either at highway speeds, accelerating away from lights, going around turns, etc. The PS2s have more-than-acceptable grip on wet roads. They channel water just fine.

Snow is another story. For snow, it's highly suggested one gets dedicated snow tires. The PS2s don't do so hot in the snow or ice, as they're summer performance tires.

Now, for Corvettes. I'm not sure where you got your impression that they "cant [sic] be driven more then 2 mph without sliding and hydroplaning" but they can. I've owned an example from each generation since the C4, and they've all driven just fine in the wet. Again, like the V, at highway speeds, around town, away from lights, around turns, whatever.

Like any high-torque car, one must approach either the Corvettes or the V with care when driving in inclement weather. Treating the accelerator like an on-and-off switch will result in bad things.

Get it?

jas

garfin
01-04-10, 08:50 AM
FWIW, as an example of the safety margin that a good tire can provide in the wet, when I track my Camaro SS, I run it on street tires, albeit very good ones - Goodyear F1 GS-D3.
Since I'm too lazy (or old) to change 8 tires during a track day, I've had to deal with some very interesting track days in the wet! It's a great learning experience!
In any event, I really enjoy those days as I can run circles around the guys who show up with R compounds on their cars. Whenever I've lapped in wet conditions, a lot of people come up and ask what tires am I running, that I'm not sliding all over the track. Wet weather traction is a huge priority for me, since the SS has been my daily (3 season) driver for 10 years.
BTW, from the research on the PS2, that tire seems to have an extremely high wet weather rating as well... and I see that Goodyear makes the F1 GS-D3 in front and back sizes for the V2.

Best regards,

Elie

Jagxf
01-04-10, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the info appreciate it, also jvp what do you consider taking a cts-v to a limit that it loses control on wet weather. I mean can you hit the gas on a wet road without having trouble, and i don't mean floor it i mean some what aggressive driving. Either way though i will test drive a cts-v i mean the car from what i heard is an amazing bargain and i have to see for myself. I have a feeling after test driving it i will buy it lol.

jvp
01-04-10, 09:14 AM
also jvp what do you consider taking a cts-v to a limit that it loses control on wet weather. I mean can you hit the gas on a wet road without having trouble, and i don't mean floor it i mean some what aggressive driving.

There are interesting things to keep in mind when driving a car like the V. For one, at idle, it has over 400ft-lbs of torque. That's more torque than most cars have at peak. So, knowing that, one must approach driving it in any condition appropriately.

Treating the accelerator like a binary switch, even on dry roads, is going to land you in a ditch. Learning how to roll on the throttle smoothly is the key to driving the car quickly and without unneeded excitement.

The same thing applies to driving it in the wet. Yes, you can "hit the gas" on a wet road, if you roll onto it vs. slamming your foot down into the cutpile.

As far as "aggressive driving", that phrase means different things to different people. What I call aggressive you may call scary. What you call aggressive I may call stupid. I don't know what your driving background is, so I don't know what you mean by "aggressive driving".

jas

undertaker
01-04-10, 09:23 AM
amazing........I've done track days in the rain in my C5 vettes and gone around GT3's at watkins glen in the rain........

I've done 165 (not a typo, not an exageration) on wet (no standing water) roads with my C5 vettes. I'm not buying snow tires so I don't bother with the cold weather (not to mention the salt, I don't mind wet but no salt) wet roadways.

Heck when my suburban was in the shop I daily drove a 800 rwhp vette to and from work in sub freezing temps (luckily no notable snow falls). I'm just use to RWD cars, always have driven them and most of them have too much power, I wouldn't want to drive a CTSV in the snow with stock rubber, but I wouldn't be afraid to drive it in the rain. Its all dependant on tires. For the most part any summer tire will be horrible on cold pavement, just like any low tread tire will be bad in standing water. Just know what rubber is on your car. I've been caught 40 miles from home in a driving rain with road race slicks on the car......just stay out of standing water and you're fine.

Jagxf
01-04-10, 09:41 AM
Why would flooring the car on dry pavement land you in a ditch, not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean if you floor the car at a light you would lose control, even on a dry road lol.

jvp
01-04-10, 09:48 AM
Why would flooring the car on dry pavement land you in a ditch, not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean if you floor the car at a light you would lose control, even on a dry road

Do you have any idea what it's like to drive a RWD car with 550ft-lbs of low-RPM peak torque? Or a RWD car with 500ft-lbs? Or 400? If you pull away from a light and floor the accelerator in first gear, even in the dry, you're going to spin the rear tires. And, assuming you've disabled the Stabilitrak (so that you can do something so stupid), you're going to find yourself pointing in the wrong direction.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it appear as though you're not actually "up" on driving high performance vehicles. Were you to take a test drive in the V, I'd strongly suggest you take it easy. The same goes for if you buy one. The accelerator pedal is a loaded big-bore rifle with a half-pound trigger weight. Just a little tug and BOOM. That's not a bad thing, mind you. You just need to be careful with it, is all.

jas

garfin
01-04-10, 09:50 AM
Treating the accelerator like a binary switch, even on dry roads, is going to land you in a ditch. Learning how to roll on the throttle smoothly is the key to driving the car quickly and without unneeded excitement.

The same thing applies to driving it in the wet. Yes, you can "hit the gas" on a wet road, if you roll onto it vs. slamming your foot down into the cutpile.

jas

"Smoothly" is definitely the key word here... as in no sudden or abrupt inputs... and that applies equally to the accelerator, brakes and steering.
One thought might be to enroll in a performance driving course. Not only will you learn how "to be smooth", but you will also learn the limits of the car and your own limits as well. This is extremely important in a car with the capabilities of the V - I would like to think that it makes an awful lot more sense to explore these relatively lofty limits on a track/closed course than on public roads.
Then transferring your experience and knowledge gained from the track to the more mundane day-to-day driving comes naturally... and you will become a better, more capable and safer driver.

Best regards,

Elie

Jagxf
01-04-10, 09:51 AM
I drive a supercharged xf which is a fast car, sure not as fast as a cts-v but it's still fast enough and it is RWD and i can floor it in the rain with winter mode and still not spin out. Also i drove my friends C5 vette 100's of times.

jvp
01-04-10, 10:07 AM
I drive a supercharged xf which is a fast car, sure not as fast as a cts-v but it's still fast enough and it is RWD and i can floor it in the rain with winter mode and still not spin out. Also i drove my friends C5 vette 100's of times.

Well, in "winter mode" you're driving with the traction control on. If you do that with the V's Stabilitrak enabled, you won't spin out either. Note what I wrote.

And your XF isn't a fast car. It's an overweight, underpowered porker. With a 0-60 time in the mid 5-second range, it's barely equivalent to a C5, let alone anything faster.

Garfin has the right suggestion (which was where I was trying to lead you). HPDEs are the right thing to do. I don't know you, but based purely on what you're saying and how you're responding, I get the feeling you don't have enough high performance driving experience. A race track is a very safe place for that (though with a V, other challenges arise). Public roads, however, are not.

jas

commander112
01-04-10, 12:57 PM
Just to let you know that this past weekend I was out on a dry road which had dry salt powder residue on it and I was going about 50 mph and just for shits and giggles I jumped on the car in fourth gear (manual trans). As soon as the supercharger spooled up the rear end broke free and the stabilitrak had to come on to settle everything down. The moral of the story is: The car has ton of power and the electronics to settle it down but if you decide to act like a fool you can find yourself in over your head real fast.
One more thing, the 320 hp CTS4 is still a great car that will do everything you are asking with great grip in the snow or wet but it sounds like you want a beast and want it to be docile. Part of keeping the beast down is setting it up right and keeping your foot out of it.

Tony407
01-04-10, 01:00 PM
I daily drive my V. In wet conditions during the summer I had no problems--the stock Michelin PS2s are awesome in the rain. The only issue is that you can't take off at full throttle in the rain or Stabilitrak will activate. If you drive the car like a normal Cadi in the rain, you will be just fine. It's all about modulating that throttle.


I've had similar experiences here in Portland where it rains a LOT.

Also had a Supercharged XF for a while which was comparable in the rain to the V with the exception of the extra horsepower which as you can imagine makes it that much easier to spin the rears. I also think the traction and stability controls in the XF were a little more responsive and quicker to release the controls back to the driver once they finished intervening.

This is a high HP RWD sedan and as such should be treated with much respect in the rain. It's common sense. Of course it's not gonna handle as well as an Audi. But it does very well and is pretty predictable in my opinion and when driven with common sense she does just fine.

I can't comment on the snow. I myself would never ever drive in snowy conditions on the PS2s. That's CRAZY!!! :alchi: LOL I can imagine it would be a lot better with some dedicated snow tires but even then I'd be pretty skeptical. Like others, my V stays in the garage when the white stuff comes down. That's what my 4x4 F150 is for.

Tony

GMX322V S/C
01-04-10, 08:05 PM
...with all-season tires the cars don't particularily handle well in any season...Heh--yup, why I call them "no-season" tires...

nsaness
01-04-10, 09:29 PM
whoa, whoa, the 510 hp Jag is no slouch. It is a great car. That being said, my 2007 and my 2010 can do "donuts" with the traction control On! :) Jaguar's traction control is more intrusive/powerful. I love my V.

Jagxf
01-04-10, 10:28 PM
What the hell are you talking about the XF isn't a fast car, where do you get your info from have you even driven one. The XF is one of the fastest sedans on the road faster then the m5, are you kidding me? So driving a c5 corvette 100's of times means i don't have experience driving a high performance car also, come on seriously pointless argument. Thanks for the help anyway.

sharpermd
01-04-10, 11:11 PM
Just to add (hopefully) some constructive info...I've had my V2for just over a month here in Chicago. The stock P2 tires were, well, mildly terrifying below 35 or 40 degrees. I'm sure they are excellent tires, just not designed to operate at these temperatures.
Following advise on this site, I bought some Pirelli Sotozero winter tires. BIG difference! These allow me to feel very secure driving in the low temps, some snow (haven't tried them out in anything very deep), while still allowing me to have a little fun every once and a while.
My 2 cents...

Jagxf
01-05-10, 01:04 AM
But wont the performance of the cts in the summer be worse on winter tires? Thanks.

commander112
01-05-10, 06:50 AM
What the hell are you talking about the XF isn't a fast car, where do you get your info from have you even driven one. The XF is one of the fastest sedans on the road faster then the m5, are you kidding me? So driving a c5 corvette 100's of times means i don't have experience driving a high performance car also, come on seriously pointless argument. Thanks for the help anyway.

It appears there is some confusion about the car you drive. Do you drive the XF (300hp) or the XFR (510hp)? Vastly different cars. The R can hang in this discussion while the XF is not in the same league. Jagxf it appears you actually have an XFR but keep referring to your car as a simple XF. Furthermore, it has been said in the press and right here in this thread that the CTS-V's traction control and stability systems in standard mode give you a little bit more to play with and allow you a bit more slip and slide before stepping in to settle things down. Of course, competition mode allows more and for those that want to let it all hand out the CTS-V will allow you to turn off the electronics and let it all hang out.

jvp
01-05-10, 07:23 AM
It appears there is some confusion about the car you drive. Do you drive the XF (300hp) or the XFR (510hp)?

:yeah:

If you're driving the R, you have my apologies. By the sound of your post, it's the "regular" XF.

jas

commander112
01-05-10, 08:14 AM
:yeah:

If you're driving the R, you have my apologies. By the sound of your post, it's the "regular" XF.

jas

He does say it is supercharged. S/C=R by new math standards!

jvp
01-05-10, 08:21 AM
He does say it is supercharged. S/C=R by new math standards!

:-) Based on his "lease running out" statement, I ASSumed it was a 2008 XF with the 4.0L supercharged motor, not the 2009 5.0L R.

jas

Jagxf
01-05-10, 09:20 AM
Sorry for the confusion but yes i drive an XFR, have a one year lease which expires soon.

cbloveday
01-05-10, 09:35 AM
If you really wanna have fun, hold down the traction control button a few seconds until the evic states "stabilitrak off".

neuronbob
01-05-10, 11:43 AM
But wont the performance of the cts in the summer be worse on winter tires? Thanks.

Yes, and in fact it can be dangerous to use winter tires on a regular basis in hot weather. This is because the softer tread that allows good traction in cold weather is likelier to rupture when used constantly in hot weather.

The whole idea behind using winter tires is to use them in cold weather only. You swap them out for the summer. Many of us, me included, have two sets of wheels for this purpose, one with PS2s and one with SottoZeros.

sharpermd
01-05-10, 09:32 PM
Exactly as written above. It is relatively cheap ($100) to have a local tire store hold my summer P2's for the season. I'll just take them back and have them switched out in the spring (don't know what THAT will cost, but it's worth it!):bouncy: