: 93 Fleetwood Wont Start - Does Crank



z3d
01-03-10, 12:43 AM
Hello all. I just bought this car and before picking it up I did hear it run. It ran for about 5 mins and simply stalled out. Did not bother restarting it and took it home via tow truck. Since then, I have not been able to get the car to start :banghead:.

It cranks over and chugs as if its about to start but never fully fires. After about three failed start attempts, it then seems to stop trying to start and behaves like it has no spark?

So far, I have replaced the Ignition control module and ignition coil. I also verified that it has gas in the tank and I verified the vats key pellet has a good value 7.5 ohms. I hear the fuel pump prime and all fuses are good.

What am i missing? My battery is low so each attempt to get it started has been with a boost from another car.

Im planning to get a new batt and maybe distributor? Any ideas on what to do short of aimlesly throwing parts at this car??

HUF
01-03-10, 12:47 AM
Your car has on-board diagnostics via climate control. Watch this video to learn how to use it. It is not a Fleetwood, but the location of the buttons is the same. Wright down the stored trouble codes and report here.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/173800-rwd-faq-tech-info.html
Here is another link for you:
http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/cfb-tech.html#diag

sven914
01-03-10, 02:31 AM
There are 4 things needed to make an engine start: Air, Compression, Fuel, and Spark

Your car is not getting one of those 4 necessities. A lack of air is usually caused by a clogged air filter, so check the air filter.

Checking for compression and spark requires special tools that you can get cheaply at the parts store. To check for compression you need a compression gauge, which is put into the combustion through the spark plug hole. The check for spark (correctly) you need a spark tester which attaches to the plug wire and lights up when it's getting voltage from the distributor. Because your engine is TBI, observing fuel flow to engine is as easy as looking down the throttle body while someone cranks the engine.

csbuckn
01-03-10, 02:45 AM
It sounds like your not getting fuel after a while. Maybe the fuel pump gets too hot after running for a while. You should watch the injectors while cranking to see if any fuel is coming out. Long shot is the filter but my money is on the pump.

drmenard
01-03-10, 12:49 PM
The first thing I would do , like said here before, is prove if it is a fuel problem. pulling the air cleaner and looking in the T/B while cranking should let you know if your getting enough gas. I have seen a blocked filter distroy a fuel pump... to a point where the pump would run but not build enough pressure... Then if all is good with the fuel , are you getting a spark? I use a adjustable spark checker...It has a screw that adjusts the gap for different output sparks... But a old spark plug with the gap opened very wide laying on the motor so its grounded will let you know its got a spark...

z3d
01-03-10, 02:22 PM
Thanks all for your help. I just checked the car out and this is what I got.

Codes:
CCM:

01 26
01 43
01 44

I think history code?

01 120
01 121
01 122
01 125
01 126
01 130
01 131
01 133
01 141
01 143
01 144

I watched the throttle body during crank, both injectors had a nice flow of fuel.

I checked for spark with a spark a spark tester and did see spark but it looked weak? not a strong snapping spark.

The car kept cranking and never seem to wanna start (No chug as if trying to fire)

HUF
01-03-10, 03:09 PM
A laundry list of trouble codes is usually a good indication of bad battery/cables/contacts/grounds. I would also make sure the contacts of computer are nice and tight. Do you think the previous owner power-washed the engine bay?

z3d
01-03-10, 03:39 PM
A laundry list of trouble codes is usually a good indication of bad battery/cables/contacts/grounds. I would also make sure the contacts of computer are nice and tight. Do you think the previous owner power-washed the engine bay?

Well, the battery is weak and has been disconnected and reconnected several times and jump started. All connections are good and the car was very dirty/unwashed.

csbuckn
01-03-10, 04:51 PM
code 43 is the same code Im getting also. It means weak signal to the ignition mod/distributor. Maybe a bad ground like HUF said.

z3d
01-03-10, 05:24 PM
code 43 is the same code Im getting also. It means weak signal to the ignition mod/distributor. Maybe a bad ground like HUF said.

Where did you get that code description? This is what i think they mean.

Current Codes in CCM:
01-26 ......... Variable Effort Steering (VES) output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-43 ................................. Key resistor circuit open or shorted to battery
01-44 ......................... Steering wheel sensor circuit open or shorted to ground

History Codes in CCM:
01-20 ................ Retained Accessory Power (RAP) enable circuit shorted to battery
01-21 ......... Retained Accessory Power (RAP) enable circuit open or shorted to ground
01-22 .................. Delayed Interior Light (DIL) enable circuit shorted to battery
01-25 ............................... Courtesy output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-26 ......... Variable Effort Steering (VES) output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-30 .............................. PASS key fault telltale circuit shorted to battery
01-31 ....................... PASS key fault telltale circuit open or shorted to ground
01-33 ................................... Fuel enable circuit open or shorted to ground
01-41 ................ Delay pot circuit open or shorted to battery (Twilight Sentinel)
01-43 ................................. Key resistor circuit open or shorted to battery
01-44 ......................... Steering wheel sensor circuit open or shorted to ground

csbuckn
01-03-10, 08:10 PM
I got the codes from the generic code reader book that came with my code reader. Where did you get yours from?

z3d
01-03-10, 08:26 PM
I got the codes from the generic code reader book that came with my code reader. Where did you get yours from?

Check this link that I got from HUF.

http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/cfb-tech.html#diag

HUF
01-03-10, 08:35 PM
Where did you get that code description? This is what i think they mean.

Current Codes in CCM:
01-26 ......... Variable Effort Steering (VES) output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-43 ................................. Key resistor circuit open or shorted to battery
01-44 ......................... Steering wheel sensor circuit open or shorted to ground

History Codes in CCM:
01-20 ................ Retained Accessory Power (RAP) enable circuit shorted to battery
01-21 ......... Retained Accessory Power (RAP) enable circuit open or shorted to ground
01-22 .................. Delayed Interior Light (DIL) enable circuit shorted to battery
01-25 ............................... Courtesy output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-26 ......... Variable Effort Steering (VES) output circuit open or shorted to ground
01-30 .............................. PASS key fault telltale circuit shorted to battery
01-31 ....................... PASS key fault telltale circuit open or shorted to ground
01-33 ................................... Fuel enable circuit open or shorted to ground
01-41 ................ Delay pot circuit open or shorted to battery (Twilight Sentinel)
01-43 ................................. Key resistor circuit open or shorted to battery
01-44 ......................... Steering wheel sensor circuit open or shorted to ground
Because all codes are CCM-related, I would start with CCM.

z3d
01-03-10, 09:08 PM
Because all codes are CCM-related, I would start with CCM.

I was thinking the same thing. If I get a used one it needs to match my current ignition pellet of 7.5 ohms correct? Is this part one that needs to be purchased new??

thefleetwoodguy
01-03-10, 10:04 PM
you can buy a used one
but it will need its vat code as its stored in the ccm
so there are 15 vats codes, when a car was assembled
the first key used to start it, gets its vats stored for the life of the ccm
so whatever ccm you get, it MUST have the key with it
or the ohms value, then have a new key cut for your car with the ccm's key code

I dont have any 93ccm's , I will keep you in mind
I sold 2 of them for a 93 in the last month
and had another two requests for a 93 ccm,
seems to be the time of year

HUF
01-03-10, 10:36 PM
I was thinking the same thing. If I get a used one it needs to match my current ignition pellet of 7.5 ohms correct? Is this part one that needs to be purchased new??

You can fool the anti-theft system by cutting the wires going to the ignition lock cylinder and inserting a resistor of correct value in the circuit on the car's side. That way the pellet in your key does not matter. You will lose one of anti-theft features though.

drmenard
01-04-10, 01:36 AM
I'll try to post a picture of the one I did on my 95....

thefleetwoodguy
01-04-10, 01:54 AM
54932

heres the vats table, note there is a tolerance
+/- for each code, it may require a few resistors to get to the value
you need, radio shack has the resisitors, and are helpful most of the time

z3d
01-04-10, 07:37 AM
Thanks all. I well see about getting the resistors and try this out after work. :cool2:

z3d
01-04-10, 09:06 PM
OK all, today i worked on my car. i made the resistor slice pack based on the resistance i measured from my key(7.5 Ohms). When i dropped the kick panel to do the work, I found that the wires were already cut in the past and now "hooked" back up factory style but with exposed badly twisted wires :ill::ill:.

I made the cut and spliced in the resistor on the computer side and left the ignition out of the circuit. Attempted to start and no go. Seemed like no spark at all. :bomb:

I looked in the trunk and it looks like the the CCM has been messed with (not firmly mounted and pivots). Its connected but im not sure I can trust it matches the actual key i used to get my VATS code for the splice pack (IGN key)?

Im getting frustrated and thinking I need to change the distributor for my sanity and the CCM as well if i can find one. Any ideas ???:banghead::banghead:

thefleetwoodguy
01-04-10, 09:28 PM
I have a 93 here(minus the ccm)
if you want to save some $ and buy good used
this car ran good but had a rod knock
so I know the dist and components are good .........Jim

HUF
01-04-10, 09:42 PM
OK all, today i worked on my car. i made the resistor slice pack based on the resistance i measured from my key(7.5 Ohms). When i dropped the kick panel to do the work, I found that the wires were already cut in the past and now "hooked" back up factory style but with exposed badly twisted wires :ill::ill:.

I made the cut and spliced in the resistor on the computer side and left the ignition out of the circuit. Attempted to start and no go. Seemed like no spark at all. :bomb:

I looked in the trunk and it looks like the the CCM has been messed with (not firmly mounted and pivots). Its connected but im not sure I can trust it matches the actual key i used to get my VATS code for the splice pack (IGN key)?

Im getting frustrated and thinking I need to change the distributor for my sanity and the CCM as well if i can find one. Any ideas ???:banghead::banghead:
Have you checked your messages? I sent one.

z3d
01-04-10, 09:59 PM
I have a 93 here(minus the ccm)
if you want to save some $ and buy good used
this car ran good but had a rod knock
so I know the dist and components are good .........Jim

Sounds good! please PM me a price + shipping to zip 48033 (Southfield MI)


Have you checked your messages? I sent one.
Yes & thank you, im so new the forum did not allow me to reply. I emailed the contact but have not gotten any reply yet.

HUF
01-04-10, 10:18 PM
Sounds good! please PM me a price + shipping to zip 48033 (Southfield MI)


Yes & thank you, im so new the forum did not allow me to reply. I emailed the contact but have not gotten any reply yet.

Okay.

z3d
01-06-10, 09:40 PM
I have a 93 here(minus the ccm)
if you want to save some $ and buy good used
this car ran good but had a rod knock
so I know the dist and components are good .........Jim
Jim. just wanted to say thanks for all the extra help! I cant wait to get the parts in the mail :D