: 09/CTS-V vs ZR-1 vette



CADYSHAK
01-01-10, 11:31 AM
Is anybody familiar with the 2009 ZR-1 vette ?
My dealer has a 09 ZR-1 for sale and will trade my 09 V in against it .
Thanks

dvandentop
01-01-10, 11:52 AM
yeah they are great cars also have more power then the v.

how much are they asking for the 09? Most used 09's have dipped into low 90's price range

jvp
01-01-10, 12:15 PM
Is anybody familiar with the 2009 ZR-1 vette ?
My dealer has a 09 ZR-1 for sale and will trade my 09 V in against it

Much like any other Corvette, the ZR1 isn't really in any way, shape, or form a car you should directly cross-shop with the CTS-V. Two different types of cars for two different types of missions. It's like comparing apples to candy bars. They're both food... but...

CTS-V: four-door sports sedan built to take on the likes of Bimmer, Mercedes, and Audio in that particular market. Luxury car first, sporty sedan second. A very nice interior, comfortable for any length of time, excellent amenities, and whatnot. Yes, it is fast and handles fairly well for a 4200lb sedan, but it is, at the end of the day, a 4200lb sedan.

Corvette: 2-door GT/sports car built to compete with Vipers, Porsches, Ferraris, et al. GT car first, "race" car second. That means it has an acceptably comfortable interior and is fairly docile around town, but it can serve double-duty as a track terror if need be. The ZR1 specifically takes the speed, handling, braking, etc of the Corvette to its highest level thus far. But it has the same interior as the rest of the Corvettes. So that's something to keep in mind.

Comparing parts and pieces: The V's navigation system is eons ahead of the piece of shit installed in the Corvette. The V's available Recaro seats are simply some of the best available in any car in the market. The Corvette's seats are acceptable, but not great. The V's brake rotors are cast iron with aluminum hubs, the ZR1's are carbon ceramic making them infinitely lighter (and way more expensive). The engines are similar but not identical. Both 6.2L with a supercharger, but the internals of the ZR1's engine are toughened up a bit, and the valve assembly lightened a tad so it can spin at a higher RPM than the V's can. To top it all off, the supercharger on the ZR1 is larger than that of the V.

This means more torque and HP in the ZR1, in a car that weighs nearly a half a ton less than the V. Performance of the two cars isn't in any way comparable.

Overall, you have to determine what you want in a vehicle. Do you want a very comfortable, sporty sedan that handles phenomenally well and goes like a bat out of hell, or do you want a 2-seat GT that can stand toe to toe with the best sports cars of the world? Two completely different cars.

jas

sefa01
01-01-10, 12:23 PM
I'll bet the dealer is asking $100k or more for the ZR-1. Why not just keep the V and buy yourself a new Z06 or a gently used one. Then you'll have two great cars. The extra horses (638 to 505) of the ZR-1 to the Z06 isn't really usuable except on the track. And a lot of people actually think the Z06 is a better track car.

BacDoc
01-01-10, 01:18 PM
If I'm in the $100k+ supercar market, the ZR1 is not on my list. World beater but if I'm putting out that kinda money I don't want to be holding a Chevy Cobalt steering wheel in my hands.

CADYSHAK
01-01-10, 02:47 PM
The dealer is asking $139,999 canadian . The car was brought up from the states and has 800 miles on it . So far they will give me $59,000 canadian dollars for my 2009 V , which is loaded - I paid $72,000 dollars .
I've owned a 2007 Z06 and found the suspension too hard on my ass . The ZR-1 has an adjustable suspension for more comfort . I love the look of the ZR-1 over the V and because the vette is way less complicated as far as eletronics go , less chances of breakdowns .
But is it worth the extra price to own ? Don't know !

nsaness
01-01-10, 04:21 PM
I assume if you dumped the Z06, the adjustable suspension will not be enough to make the ZR1 comfy. Test drive the ZR1 and you will know. If you have that kind of money on hand, it is absolutely "worth it". I would drive a Z06 with a seat made of nails and glass. I love speed and handling. Comfort and radios mean very little to me.
Losing money to trade up to the ZR1 is all about illogical desire. I had to sell a kidney and two kids to get my V, but I could not live without one. If you don't have that kind of hunger in your soul, you should save the extra money and be happy driving a wonderful car that can carry more than two people.

thebigjimsho
01-01-10, 06:12 PM
If I'm in the $100k+ supercar market, the ZR1 is not on my list. World beater but if I'm putting out that kinda money I don't want to be holding a Chevy Cobalt steering wheel in my hands.
You buy $100K+ supercars for 1 of 2 reasons. To look posh and to be the fastest. We now know your reasons...

thebigjimsho
01-01-10, 06:15 PM
I'll bet the dealer is asking $100k or more for the ZR-1. Why not just keep the V and buy yourself a new Z06 or a gently used one. Then you'll have two great cars. The extra horses (638 to 505) of the ZR-1 to the Z06 isn't really usuable except on the track. And a lot of people actually think the Z06 is a better track car.
The biggest issue is heat soak. If the ZR1 has it, then I'd go Z06. If not, the C&D comparo a few months back where they invited a prepped Katech Z06 to the party seals it for me...

thebigjimsho
01-01-10, 06:16 PM
Nevermind the fact I cannot afford a ZR1...

thebigjimsho
01-01-10, 06:18 PM
And people, please, the C4 had the ZR-1 option.

The new ones are ZR1...

nynd
01-01-10, 07:12 PM
You must be referring to the one at MVL. There is another one in BC (slightly further away) but $10K cheaper.

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-2009-Chevrolet-Corvette-ZR1-Coupe-2-door-W0QQAdIdZ175710770

I'd say hand on to the V for a while longer and wait till the 2011's hit the market. The 09's will go down more and
there maybe the 011's maybe have something more appealing.

sirjames
01-01-10, 08:18 PM
You will have to decide on who gets to ride along in your new ride. Choose ONE...

sirjames
01-01-10, 08:20 PM
PS. I personally would own a V2 over ANY Vette short of the ZR-1...

sirjames
01-01-10, 08:20 PM
BTW, who's sure they will mfg a 2011 model??

nynd
01-01-10, 08:36 PM
BTW, who's sure they will mfg a 2011 model??

Corvette will never die.. it is GM's vehicle to show the world what they can make. American made on American soil.

Luna.
01-01-10, 08:58 PM
You buy $100K+ supercars for 1 of 2 reasons. To look posh and to be the fastest. We now know your reasons...

:histeric:

Well said

BacDoc
01-01-10, 09:23 PM
You buy $100K+ supercars for 1 of 2 reasons. To look posh and to be the fastest. We now know your reasons...

Even the worlds best drivers report they are white knuckling that ZR1 when pushing the limits. So it's not like you're gonna be the fastest guy by turning the key. There are better choices out there if you are willing to look at used Italian. :) You can be posh and fast.

I'm a huge ZR1 fan, but at the end of the day it's still just a Vette....with the same GM HHR interior.

SlvrBullIT
01-01-10, 10:27 PM
The only way I'd own a ZR-1 is if I could gut the interior an make it a dedicated track car. For slightly more $ I'd get a GTR, but I had to think twice after the whole warranty PIA they have now. Z06 is a better option for track, DD and $ vs ZR1. Moreover, how do you compare V vs ZR1 anyways?

sefa01
01-01-10, 11:42 PM
Corvette will never die.. it is GM's vehicle to show the world what they can make. American made on American soil.

Not going to die. But the C7, according to the current issue of "Autoweek", is being pushed back to at least 2014.

dvandentop
01-02-10, 12:00 AM
not worth the price difference for you imho

jvp
01-02-10, 12:45 AM
Even the worlds best drivers report they are white knuckling that ZR1 when pushing the limits. So it's not like you're gonna be the fastest guy by turning the key. There are better choices out there if you are willing to look at used Italian. :) You can be posh and fast.

Used Italian what? Ferrari F360? MAYBE a F430? You'll be "posh" (though I'd seriously re-check the interior of those Ferraris were I you) but slow. Hell, a well-driven Z51 Corvette coupe will stand toe to toe with a very expensive F430, let alone completely trounce an F360. Z06s will eat them both for lunch, and the ZR1... no comparo.

No, you can't be posh and fast and spend $120K on a "used" Italian car. You can't have both. Pick one or the other.

jas

liqidvenom
01-02-10, 01:19 AM
used italian would leave you with a shiny toy which leaves you with a headache of a dd. you could dd the zr1 the same way you could a v and not have much of an issue. maybe a used 997 would be nice, but then you are still slower then a z06 let alone a zr1.

the faster of a car the more talent you need to drive it. white knuckled or not it lays down some nasty times... http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/index.html

and you can cross shop a v against a zr1. I have no kids, drive around alone 99% of the time and if i have to carry more then 2 people I just take a car from work. so its just performance in a body i like. some days i wonder if i would have been better off with a c6.

jvp
01-02-10, 01:31 AM
I generally agree with most of what you say except your last paragraph.


and you can cross shop a v against a zr1.

You really can't. I've driven Corvettes for over 13 years (C4, C5, C6). The V is the first 4-door sedan I've ever owned, and it is one hell of a car. But it isn't comparable or cross-shopped with a ZR1. Or any Corvette, really. They're literally cut from two different molds and aren't meant to be compared.

The driving feel is completely different. The handling, braking, acceleration, etc are totally different between the two. A lot of that can be attributed to mass and tire contact patch, but not entirely. The V's suspension is far softer than the Corvette's... it has to be because it's a luxury car first and foremost. Like it or not, the V will not corner as flat as a Corvette will. If it did, it wouldn't be nearly as comfortable to drive as it is.

But as I listed previously, the V has its pluses. The interior is significantly better than the Corvette's is (any Corvette). The noise abatement is superb, letting in just the right amount of engine howl, supercharger whine, and exhaust blare while trying to mute the tire noise. The Corvette's noise abatement isn't nearly as good, and the hatchback build of the body acts as a megaphone, directing the tire noise from the rear tires up into the hatch and directly towards the driver's ears. You combine all that with the CTS' significant electronic gizmos (not specific to the V) such as the awesome nav system, the built-in iPod connector, nearly crystal-clear Bluetooth (far nicer than what's in the Vette right now) and you have on hell of a comfortable and utilitarian sedan.

So, again I can't emphasize enough: the two vehicles are both fast, and handle fairly well. But their differences are far greater than their similarities.

jas

homesite
01-02-10, 01:58 AM
Get a used Lambo Murcielago with low miles and call it a day

liqidvenom
01-02-10, 02:42 AM
I generally agree with most of what you say except your last paragraph.



You really can't. I've driven Corvettes for over 13 years (C4, C5, C6). The V is the first 4-door sedan I've ever owned, and it is one hell of a car. But it isn't comparable or cross-shopped with a ZR1. Or any Corvette, really. They're literally cut from two different molds and aren't meant to be compared.

The driving feel is completely different. The handling, braking, acceleration, etc are totally different between the two. A lot of that can be attributed to mass and tire contact patch, but not entirely. The V's suspension is far softer than the Corvette's... it has to be because it's a luxury car first and foremost. Like it or not, the V will not corner as flat as a Corvette will. If it did, it wouldn't be nearly as comfortable to drive as it is.

But as I listed previously, the V has its pluses. The interior is significantly better than the Corvette's is (any Corvette). The noise abatement is superb, letting in just the right amount of engine howl, supercharger whine, and exhaust blare while trying to mute the tire noise. The Corvette's noise abatement isn't nearly as good, and the hatchback build of the body acts as a megaphone, directing the tire noise from the rear tires up into the hatch and directly towards the driver's ears. You combine all that with the CTS' significant electronic gizmos (not specific to the V) such as the awesome nav system, the built-in iPod connector, nearly crystal-clear Bluetooth (far nicer than what's in the Vette right now) and you have on hell of a comfortable and utilitarian sedan.

So, again I can't emphasize enough: the two vehicles are both fast, and handle fairly well. But their differences are far greater than their similarities.

jas

I am 28 yrs old. a car that rides rough or has alot of noise isnt reason enough for my to disqualify it. Actually I think a vette is quiet. If i am looking for a fast car then I will cross shop all the fast cars in my price range that have a look that i like. Do you know what a 370z, 335, m5, cts-v, c6, viper all have in common? They all are fast cars, that all look good to me yet drive differently and offer way different driver toys. Telematic things can be replaced and upgraded easier then performance things.

Stingroo
01-02-10, 02:46 AM
Well I don't know if I'd throw a 370Z in with an M5, CTS-V, Viper or C6 as far as speed-comparison... but yeah.

If it were me: Go for the ZR1. How often do you get to own a six-figure 200+ mph sports car? I'd be all over that like white on rice if you've got no kids.

If you do, take pics! :)

liqidvenom
01-02-10, 02:48 AM
well i tossed the 370z in there because its the cheap end of the line..... but its rather slow compared to the rest. but it is a car that causes you to make a sacrifice for performance.

Stingroo
01-02-10, 02:51 AM
I can honestly say I don't see that many Z's around, so I can't really comment on it, I just know price wise it's lower than the rest, so I assumed the same performance wise. Maybe substitute it with the GTR.

But don't go hitting pedestrians if you do. :lol:

BacDoc
01-02-10, 09:49 AM
Im not arguing the ZR1's abilities. Bang for the buck it's a world beater but at the end of the day it's just a corvette that can only be driven to it's limits with extreme skill accordingly to every review if seen. And if you're in the market for a $100k + daily driver chances are it can't outrun your Veyron.

caddynoob
01-02-10, 05:28 PM
Hi there, another fellow Canadain here.

To be honest $140000 sounds way too high for a ZR1 imported from the US with 800 miles. These 800 miles were probably not driven gentlely. Is that including tax and out the door price? Which province?

To put things into perspective a Canadian 2010 1SD (Equivalent to US3ZR) is only CDN$142980+fees+tax. That's a 2010 model with launch control. A CDN 2010 model will have much better resale down the road as well.

Right now, a brand new 2009 ZR1 is dipping below the $110000 mark in the US. You can get 7500 off MSRP or better. Since the Vette is build in the states, there is no duty when you import one into Canada. The import fee is around $200 and that's it. It appears that no additional modification is required for the ZR1.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safevehicles/importation/usa/vafus/list2/GENERAL_MOTORS___SATURN.htm

There are twenty one 2009 ZR1 left according to

http://www.jeffhardy.com/lookupvette.php (http://www.jeffhardy.com/lookupvette.php)


With today's exchange rate, you are looking at CDN$115000 + GST/PST if you import one yourself. With 13% tax in Ontario. You are looking at around $130000 tax in with Ontario plates on the car. That's a brand new car without the 800 presumably harsh miles on the odometer. Oh, you probably will need to add shipping cost, since you can't really drive one up yourself in this weather.

The ZR1 is a great car, but I just cannot live with the interior. In that price range, I would seriously consider the 997 GT3, the Viper ACR or even the R8 and drive it year round. Whatever you decide at the end, please do shop around for a better price on the ZR1. Hopefully I saved you some money.

liqidvenom
01-02-10, 05:39 PM
Im not arguing the ZR1's abilities. Bang for the buck it's a world beater but at the end of the day it's just a corvette that can only be driven to it's limits with extreme skill accordingly to every review if seen. And if you're in the market for a $100k + daily driver chances are it can't outrun your Veyron.

well a 100k dd isnt to far off from a 70k+ dd that some v2's are pre mods.

I also doubt that anyone on this forum with a normal job is able to push a V2 to its limits.

SlvrBullIT
01-02-10, 06:27 PM
30K, you can get a whole another car!!!

liqidvenom
01-02-10, 07:06 PM
thats not balla talk. lol

caddiedrummer
01-02-10, 07:19 PM
I can never understand this sedan vs sports car choice. Way different cars. I have had C5 and C6 vettes and have driven a Zr-1 (Lutz' Z-long story)

I currently have 3 Vipers including an 09 and an ACR(2010) on order. My 09 has roughly the same performance as the ZR-1.

The Z is a GREAT car with lots of comfort features/gadgets none of my Vipers have. It is not an attention getter unless you are with some serious gearheads. In fact I have been to more than one car show in my Caddy V where folks were all over it and ignoring the $120K Z next to it. Put a Viper next to it and it may as well be invisable.

IMO, Chevy continues to make the same mistake over and over again. Whether it is the Z06 or ZR-1 they don't do enough to distinguish it from a run of the mill Vette. For what the Z costs it should really stand out more.

For my bucks if I am going to throw down $120 plus I will throw in 20 more or so and buy a Ford GT which although now surpassed in the power war, is unique and will hold value.

Hey--where is Short Throw--he owns both.

OldRoadDawg
01-02-10, 07:41 PM
I also doubt that anyone on this forum with a normal job is able to push a V2 to its limits.


Hey--where is Short Throw--he owns both.
Yeah, I've been waitin' for him to check in

UnsafeAtAnySpd
01-02-10, 07:54 PM
The only way I'd own a ZR-1 is if I could gut the interior an make it a dedicated track car. For slightly more $ I'd get a GTR, but I had to think twice after the whole warranty PIA they have now. Z06 is a better option for track, DD and $ vs ZR1. Moreover, how do you compare V vs ZR1 anyways?

I think you might have some warranty issues bringing in a gutted ZR1 as well... :alchi:

thebigjimsho
01-03-10, 01:34 AM
Im not arguing the ZR1's abilities. Bang for the buck it's a world beater but at the end of the day it's just a corvette that can only be driven to it's limits with extreme skill accordingly to every review if seen. And if you're in the market for a $100k + daily driver chances are it can't outrun your Veyron.
You keep saying this but I have not seen any such complaint in what I've read. C&D have driven a number of these and, if anything, it's the Z06 that's the handful.

thebigjimsho
01-03-10, 01:41 AM
Get a used Lambo Murcielago with low miles and call it a day
I'd rather not...



Murcielago

http://videos.caranddriver.com/services/player/bcpid50644027001?bctid=59661506001


Corvette ZR1

http://videos.caranddriver.com/services/player/bcpid50644027001?bctid=59552528001

Short-Throw
01-03-10, 01:59 AM
Hey--where is Short Throw--he owns both.


Yeah, I've been waitin' for him to check in


Darn, so much for laying in the weeds.

Cadyshak, These two cars having absolutely nothing in common. I am confused of what you are basing your comparisons on. The ZR1 is almost twice the price of the V and your main concern is comfort? While the MR suspension in the ZR1 gives a smoother ride than the Z06, it's still nowhere near the V. You can get the MR suspension on a cheaper vette model. Looks are subjective so I understand the yearning to want a ZR1. However, if you want a ZR1 (which really is a cool car) but your main concern is ride quality, I believe you will have buyers remorse after the check clears. If you have specific questions, fire away!

Here are the happy couple at last year's Katech Track Attack!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2451/3615628560_cfa3e072a1_o.jpg

This years event is June 5-6 at Autobahn.

Mike

CADYSHAK
01-03-10, 05:27 AM
Thanks for your help guys.
I obviously know the two cars are "night and day" type of vehicles .Ultimate comfort is not the criteria for looking at the the ZR-1 , looks wise the car is awesome, some creature comforts and a leather stitched interior really is a enough for me . However , as pointed out , this ZR-1 is overpriced compared to whats available .
I may look into the new 2010 C6 "sport package" machine .
Who knows .

MReiland
01-03-10, 07:33 AM
Even the worlds best drivers report they are white knuckling that ZR1 when pushing the limits. So it's not like you're gonna be the fastest guy by turning the key. There are better choices out there if you are willing to look at used Italian. :) You can be posh and fast.

Not sure about Lambo but I have never heard anything but scary stories about the maintenance fees for late model ferrari's paid by the owner at very low mileage intervals to keep it running correctly, numbers in the thousands after only a few thousand miles. I obviously don't own one but I know 2 people that have older ones and the maintenance costs can make BMW look free for the life of the vehicle if you know what I mean.

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/939

I don't see doing that kind of maintenance on the Z-R1 out of pocket for quite a while.

caddynoob
01-03-10, 08:09 AM
Thanks for your help guys.
... However , as pointed out , this ZR-1 is overpriced compared to whats available .
I may look into the new 2010 C6 "sport package" machine .
Who knows .

Life is short and full of unexpected surprises. You really have to go with your heart's desire.

While the ZR-1 you looked at is clearly overpriced. Shop around, there are good deals to be had. They are discounting even 2010 ZR-1 in the US and Canada as well. If you don't care too much for the interior, go with the base 1SC. I am also contemplating the possibility of a 2010 Arctic White 1SC with Comp Grey rims myself.

Keep in mind that the dealers are probably going to:

1. Start with asking a premium and discount to MSRP, or say
2. People are charging a premium for these cars. MSRP is a good deal
3. These come in very limited supplies

Don't listen to any of that, you know better. One way to go about it is to walk in to the dealership and tell them that a friend of mine imported one from the US recently and you are interested in one yourself. You are willing to pay a bit more for a Canadian spec car but not by an unreasonable amount. In addition to the $4000 cash incentive, what else can you do for me. You might be surprised.

The Grand Sport C6 really doesn't offer much more straight life performance compared to the V. It will handle better by virtue of the lighter weight, but I think the V is a much more special car.

Then again, you know what you really want better than anyone else. Happy shopping. :cool2:

caddiedrummer
01-03-10, 09:19 AM
Mike:

Great pic--makes me jealous.

BacDoc
01-03-10, 10:19 AM
You keep saying this but I have not seen any such complaint in what I've read. C&D have driven a number of these and, if anything, it's the Z06 that's the handful.

??? Even the lastest C&D Lighting Lap states that driving the ZR1 is not very easy and even scary at times. Check it out and ever other review out there.

I'm not arguing it's incapable of anything, just the fact that the average joe won't be able to drive it to the limits.


Not sure about Lambo but I have never heard anything but scary stories about the maintenance fees for late model ferrari's paid by the owner at very low mileage intervals to keep it running correctly, numbers in the thousands after only a few thousand miles. I obviously don't own one but I know 2 people that have older ones and the maintenance costs can make BMW look free for the life of the vehicle if you know what I mean.

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/939

I don't see doing that kind of maintenance on the Z-R1 out of pocket for quite a while.

I'm assuming if someone is in the $100k+ DD market, they would be able to take into account such things and I assume a few thousand dollars every 6 months would not be an issue.

Does the ZR1 have that advantage, sure, but then again it's just a Corvette. Like the other guy said most people wouldn't even recognize it, to me it's looks almost like a riced up Vette from JC Whitney, and some parts could be found on a Cobalt. :)

Would I take one if I were given the opportunity? You bet your sweet ass I would. But I have a few cars ahead of it on my list.

caddiedrummer
01-03-10, 11:20 AM
I am not sure who these wimps are that the car mags get to drive these cars. The ZR-1 is not scary to drive based on my 1 experience--and I had it way up on 2 lane back roads. It was easier to control than my Vipers, and I think my Vs rear end would have kicked out at the same speeds.

Despite my complaint that Chevy should do something dramatic--looks wise to set this $120K car apart, I would love to have one. (but with 3 Vipers, one on the way, and my V I would need a good divorce lawyer--I did buy her off with an Escalade, however:D)

Short-Throw
01-03-10, 12:15 PM
??? Even the lastest C&D Lighting Lap states that driving the ZR1 is not very easy and even scary at times. Check it out and ever other review out there.

I'm not arguing it's incapable of anything, just the fact that the average joe won't be able to drive it to the limits.



I am not sure who these wimps are that the car mags get to drive these cars. The ZR-1 is not scary to drive based on my 1 experience--and I had it way up on 2 lane back roads. It was easier to control than my Vipers, and I think my Vs rear end would have kicked out at the same speeds.


Caddie,

You're spot on!

Bac Doc:

The ZR1 is very sure footed and of all the the Corvettes ever produced, requires the least amount of trail-braking to get it around the track. I hit over 170mph at VIR with a GM exec aboard before the car was released to the public 2 years ago and had no problem braking at the 2-marker on the back straight. (There's a video of it somewhere on youtube).

As far as driving the ZR1 to it's limit, most people can't drive any car to it's limit, they just think they can. The police offers we teach continuing driver's education to learn this quickly, in their 4 door cars. I wouldn't put too much stock into a magazine article that limits driver seat time. The ZR1 ran a 7:26 at the ring (Kudos to the ACR for besting that as well), only well balanced cars can offer up such performance.

Getting back to topic, I think CADYSHAK realizes this particular ZR1 dealer is asking way too much of a premium. CADYSHAK likes the car and I'm sure we have all done this at one point, is trying to justify why he should buy it. Heck, none of us need a V to get to work either!


Mike

thebigjimsho
01-03-10, 01:33 PM
ZR1.


Not ZR-1...

Short-Throw
01-03-10, 07:26 PM
??? Even the lastest C&D Lighting Lap states that driving the ZR1 is not very easy and even scary at times. Check it out and ever other review out there.



BacDoc,

Here's a video of the ZR1 being driven at VIR.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-lightning-lap-2009-hot-laps-at-virginia-international-raceway-video/

I can certainly understand your sentiment after hearing the playback. The magazine rags are worth only so much and here's why you shouldn't take to heart everything you hear.

First notice throughout the short video not a single heel-to-toe. In turn one watch him wrestle the shifter into third with his fingers over the knob, instead of pushing with his palm lightly. He's critical of the ZR1's handling in the uphill esses--what the average joe won't recognize is the fact that he 'crabbed' his way over from the right as he entered the esses and by not making a later apex into the first 's', created more work going through the rest of them. This is a common mistake by many of the students we ride with at the NCM HPDe's. Watch the tach, he wasn't very smooth on the throttle as well. Going through Oak Tree he apexed way too early which sent him wide and cost him valuable time going uphill.

It's the small mistakes that when exposed at higher speeds make a driver feel nervous. It's the driver's job to find a car's balance and every car has differences. I'm not saying they are incapable drivers, just drivers with not enough seat time in each respective car. There's a reason owner's themselves always best magazine times whether it's on a road course or drag strip.

The V will beat a base Corvette on track, driver for driver, but most wouldn't be able to negotiate the extra weight.



Mike

liqidvenom
01-03-10, 08:10 PM
I'm assuming if someone is in the $100k+ DD market, they would be able to take into account such things and I assume a few thousand dollars every 6 months would not be an issue.

Does the ZR1 have that advantage, sure, but then again it's just a Corvette. Like the other guy said most people wouldn't even recognize it, to me it's looks almost like a riced up Vette from JC Whitney, and some parts could be found on a Cobalt. :)

Would I take one if I were given the opportunity? You bet your sweet ass I would. But I have a few cars ahead of it on my list.

how is a v any different? its just a hopped up cts just like a zr1 is a hopped up c6. only difference is that more people have heard of a corvette as opposed to a cts. Not many people even know what a cts is let alone be able to pick out the difference b/w a cts and a V.

if you are buying a car to be noticed then you made a mistake buying a V. a amg or m vehicle is way more popular to normal people AND car enthusiast then any performance vehicle from Gm aside from the vette and camaro.

BacDoc
01-03-10, 08:43 PM
BacDoc,

Here's a video of the ZR1 being driven at VIR.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-lightning-lap-2009-hot-laps-at-virginia-international-raceway-video/

I can certainly understand your sentiment after hearing the playback. The magazine rags are worth only so much and here's why you shouldn't take to heart everything you hear.

First notice throughout the short video not a single heel-to-toe. In turn one watch him wrestle the shifter into third with his fingers over the knob, instead of pushing with his palm lightly. He's critical of the ZR1's handling in the uphill esses--what the average joe won't recognize is the fact that he 'crabbed' his way over from the right as he entered the esses and by not making a later apex into the first 's', created more work going through the rest of them. This is a common mistake by many of the students we ride with at the NCM HPDe's. Watch the tach, he wasn't very smooth on the throttle as well. Going through Oak Tree he apexed way too early which sent him wide and cost him valuable time going uphill.

It's the small mistakes that when exposed at higher speeds make a driver feel nervous. It's the driver's job to find a car's balance and every car has differences. I'm not saying they are incapable drivers, just drivers with not enough seat time in each respective car. There's a reason owner's themselves always best magazine times whether it's on a road course or drag strip.

The V will beat a base Corvette on track, driver for driver, but most wouldn't be able to negotiate the extra weight.



Mike

Most people here are running upper 12's while the rags are posting 12.3's.

My point is for $100k+ I'm not buying a Vette. Would I love to own one sure, but for that money I would be willing to consider more than just raw speed. Then again I've never driven one so this is just merely my opinion nothing more.




how is a v any different? its just a hopped up cts just like a zr1 is a hopped up c6. only difference is that more people have heard of a corvette as opposed to a cts. Not many people even know what a cts is let alone be able to pick out the difference b/w a cts and a V.

if you are buying a car to be noticed then you made a mistake buying a V. a amg or m vehicle is way more popular to normal people AND car enthusiast then any performance vehicle from Gm aside from the vette and camaro.

It's different because overall it's stated (by several sources) to be the best American made car ever. Best overall in everything not just raw performance.

When you get into the $120k range (which the V isn't) you're into supercar/exotic prices. At that point, a Corvette (no matter it's performance) is not on my list.

Again, I'm not arguing it's potential just the fact that at that price range, there are a slew of cars I would rather have over a Corvette. And that is just my opinion, it's not right or wrong. But at the end of the day if I want to crush the world it would be in an ACR. :)

vjjack04
01-03-10, 09:23 PM
Is anybody familiar with the 2009 ZR-1 vette ?
My dealer has a 09 ZR-1 for sale and will trade my 09 V in against it .
Thanks

Alot of folks have had comment-I think if you like the 'vette - get it. - if you don't - don't.

...I have a C5 and now a '10 CTS-V...just decide on what you like and do what you can accomidate...

The vette is awesome and the CTS is alway nice....

mugatu22
01-04-10, 01:08 AM
If I'm in the $100k+ supercar market, the ZR1 is not on my list. World beater but if I'm putting out that kinda money I don't want to be holding a Chevy Cobalt steering wheel in my hands.

+1 For that kind of coin, the ZR1 is embarrassingly cheap inside.

CADYSHAK
01-04-10, 02:17 AM
Thanks guys again for your comments and input .
After more thought I have at least this winter to think over
what I want to do .

MReiland
01-04-10, 09:37 AM
I'm assuming if someone is in the $100k+ DD market, they would be able to take into account such things and I assume a few thousand dollars every 6 months would not be an issue.


The main reason I brought up maintenance on a supercar is that the thread headed down the road of for $100-$120k you can buy a 'used' supercar.... If you read any of the Exotic forums I find lots of posters of people that are looking to buy a 'used' supercar are very concerned about the cost of maintenance.

However, people that go out an buy a 'new' supercar seem to care much less about anything since most depriciate much faster than average. Some hold their value or even go up in value but those are fairly rare and extremely expensive from the start.

Many of the previous gen Ferrari's have to have the engine pulled for all kinds of routine service and repair bills for over 10k are not uncommon on the Ferrari forums. That is serious money for anyone in the market for a $100k car. If you had a ZR-1 and they told you it would require that kind of service in 2-3 years most people would be crying bloody murder.

Complain all you want about the ZR1 interior, it gets the job done just fine for thousands, tens of thousands, even a hundred thousand less than some of the cars it competes with on the track. For that kind of money you could go get your own 1 of a kind interior exactly to your liking.

jvp
01-04-10, 09:58 AM
Complain all you want about the ZR1 interior, it gets the job done just fine for thousands, tens of thousands, even a hundred thousand less than some of the cars it competes with on the track. For that kind of money you could go get your own 1 of a kind interior exactly to your liking.

We have amusing discussions like this all the time on the Corvette Forum. Some people complain on and on that the expensive (and yes, $120K is expensive) ZR1 has a "crappy" interior not suitable for a car its price. They simply don't care to realize the car has $200K worth of performance bundled into that $120K price tag.

Overly-simplifying the formula for designing, engineering, and building a high performance car, we can get this: the total price of the vehicle HAS TO equal the sum of the cost of performance and the cost of "comfort". A + B == C. "A" is the performance costs (engine, transmission, suspension, tires, brakes, etc) of the car, while "B" is the comfort costs (interior, trim, noise deadening, etc). We already know "C", which is about $100K. That was the target Waggoner set for Team Corvette after he saw the Z06. "If that's what you can do for $60K, what can you do for $100K?"

A + B == $100K.

Fixed. Really easy to understand. If you raise A, you HAVE TO drop B. If you raise B, you HAVE TO drop A. Otherwise, "C" has no value whatsoever as a target price.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for folks to understand.

The next challenge I typically throw at the interior detractors is: "If you're so sure GM can build a better interior at that cost, go for it. See what you can come up with, and see if it fits into the cost of the vehicle, keeping in mind volume discounts or lack thereof." No one's been able to do it yet.

jas

caddynoob
01-04-10, 10:21 AM
A guy just blew a stock LS7 engine on the track and GM refused to honor the warranty. Just because you seem to have a longer and better warranty doesn't mean that you get it compared to some supercar.

As far as the interior goes. The ZR1 really is one of the worse if not the worst in its class. But there is always Caravaggio Corvette for a full interior. Can cost you around 15k but well worth it IMHO.

MReiland
01-04-10, 10:26 AM
A guy just blew a stock LS7 engine on the track and GM refused to honor the warranty. Just because you seem to have a longer and better warranty doesn't mean that you get it compared to some supercar.

Any chance there is more to this story.... what was the reason for them not honoring the warranty, modifications, a custom tune?

jvp
01-04-10, 10:31 AM
Any chance there is more to this story.... what was the reason for them not honoring the warranty, modifications, a custom tune?

Nope, not in this case. Stock car, stock engine, stock tires, etc. He was HPDE'ing it, but GM never even mentioned that as a cause for denying it. All they said was "There's no evidence of faulty workmanship here". Well... the failed engine IS evidence of said.

These cases are few and far between. Generally, GM's been very, very good at covering HPDE cars as long as mods and tunes aren't found. This one fella just ran into a pig-headed GM rep.

jas

liqidvenom
01-04-10, 10:31 AM
A guy just blew a stock LS7 engine on the track and GM refused to honor the warranty. Just because you seem to have a longer and better warranty doesn't mean that you get it compared to some supercar.

As far as the interior goes. The ZR1 really is one of the worse if not the worst in its class. But there is always Caravaggio Corvette for a full interior. Can cost you around 15k but well worth it IMHO.

buying a sports car based on its interior is like getting a hooker on her ability to dress.

Also damaging a vehicle on the track tends to void most warranties, but im sure there is a reason his warranty was voided and not just the engine damage. do you have a thread to read on it?

I would rather be the fastest in my class, and have an ok interior then have a baller interior and see cars cheaper that are faster. I mean look at a lotus exige or a f430 scud. those have pathetic interiors for its price yet that seems to be fine if the car is quicker.

liqidvenom
01-04-10, 10:34 AM
Nope, not in this case. Stock car, stock engine, stock tires, etc. He was HPDE'ing it, but GM never even mentioned that as a cause for denying it. All they said was "There's no evidence of faulty workmanship here". Well... the failed engine IS evidence of said.

These cases are few and far between. Generally, GM's been very, very good at covering HPDE cars as long as mods and tunes aren't found. This one fella just ran into a pig-headed GM rep.

jas

something sounds fishy with this one, i personally know someone who popped a c6 motor with mods and it was warrantied. I would be shocked to hear that my bone stock still warrantied vehicle is not covered when it fails.

jvp
01-04-10, 10:34 AM
Also damaging a vehicle on the track tends to void most warranties, but im sure there is a reason his warranty was voided and not just the engine damage. do you have a thread to read on it?

There really wasn't, and isn't.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2499268-stock-engine-dropped-valve-gm-wont-warranty.html

jas

MReiland
01-04-10, 10:34 AM
Nope, not in this case. Stock car, stock engine, stock tires, etc. He was HPDE'ing it, but GM never even mentioned that as a cause for denying it. All they said was "There's no evidence of faulty workmanship here". Well... the failed engine IS evidence of said.

These cases are few and far between. Generally, GM's been very, very good at covering HPDE cars as long as mods and tunes aren't found. This one fella just ran into a pig-headed GM rep.

jas

That's interesting, I would like to read more about it also.

BacDoc
01-04-10, 10:50 AM
buying a sports car based on its interior is like getting a hooker on her ability to dress.

Also damaging a vehicle on the track tends to void most warranties, but im sure there is a reason his warranty was voided and not just the engine damage. do you have a thread to read on it?

I would rather be the fastest in my class, and have an ok interior then have a baller interior and see cars cheaper that are faster. I mean look at a lotus exige or a f430 scud. those have pathetic interiors for its price yet that seems to be fine if the car is quicker.

It's not just the interior. It looks like a riced up Corvette with big brakes. And you're not gonna be on a track or all out every day of the week so why not go with something a little more classy like an Aston Martin, Ferrari, GT3,...or rare like a Viper, Ford GT, Lambo, ....?

Z06ified
01-04-10, 11:03 AM
It's not just the interior. It looks like a riced up Corvette with big brakes. And you're not gonna be on a track or all out every day of the week so why not go with something a little more classy like an Aston Martin, Ferrari, GT3,...or rare like a Viper, Ford GT, Lambo, ....?

Why? Because it is one of the fastest production cars in the world. The only car that can touch it is the Viper ACR, and that's more race car than street car. No Porsche, no Ferrari, no Lambo, no Aston can beat it on a track. That is a fact.

You may not like its styling, but the ZR1's performance pedigree is almost untouchable. That in itself makes it highly desireable, even if it was ugly (which it isn't).

BacDoc
01-04-10, 11:12 AM
Why? Because it is one of the fastest production cars in the world. The only car that can touch it is the Viper ACR, and that's more race car than street car. No Porsche, no Ferrari, no Lambo, no Aston can beat it on a track. That is a fact.

You may not like its styling, but the ZR1's performance pedigree is almost untouchable. That in itself makes it highly desireable, even if it was ugly (which it isn't).

I never doubted it's capabilities. Just it's overall appeal for the money.

undertaker
01-04-10, 11:13 AM
Why? Because it is one of the fastest production cars in the world. The only car that can touch it is the Viper ACR, and that's more race car than street car. No Porsche, no Ferrari, no Lambo, no Aston can beat it on a track. That is a fact.

You may not like its styling, but the ZR1's performance pedigree is almost untouchable. That in itself makes it highly desireable, even if it was ugly (which it isn't).


put some R compound rubber on the ZR1 as the ACR comes with and I think it would definetely even out the playing field....having done track days on street and R compound rubber...

BacDoc
01-04-10, 11:17 AM
put some R compound rubber on the ZR1 as the ACR comes with and I think it would definetely even out the playing field....having done track days on street and R compound rubber...

Not even R compound can replace that HHR steering wheel. :P

I have little doubt that would be a combination worthy of a Ring record run. And what's crazy is that ACR has to do it with 7 wings and 31 suspension adjustments.

Z06ified
01-04-10, 11:26 AM
I never doubted it's capabilities. Just it's overall appeal for the money.

Name another car that can match or beat the ZR1 for the money (besides the Viper), or even twice the price, and I would agree with you...

Especially when you consider the $194,000 Porsche GT2 doesn't look all that much different than a base 911 (the appearance differences between a ZR1 and a base Corvette and between a GT2 and a base 911 are similarly subtle).

BacDoc
01-04-10, 11:44 AM
The 911 design hasn't changed in 60 years. Again, it's not about all balls out performance at $120k+ it's about the overall package you could get for that kinda money....IMO there are better choices.


Again, it's just my opinion, it's neither right or wrong.

caddynoob
01-04-10, 11:54 AM
Name another car that can match or beat the ZR1 for the money (besides the Viper), or even twice the price, and I would agree with you...

Especially when you consider the $194,000 Porsche GT2 doesn't look all that much different than a base 911 (the appearance differences between a ZR1 and a base Corvette and between a GT2 and a base 911 are similarly subtle).

Clearly performance is your primary objective but that might not be the case for everyone. I often wonder these questions: how fast is the car, can I drive it that fast, and if so where and how often?

Similar amount of money can easily get you into the Auti R8. I think chicks will dig the R8 much more. Not that I need a nice car to pull chicks, but not everyone buy a sports car to go fast.

JFJr
01-04-10, 12:05 PM
put some R compound rubber on the ZR1 as the ACR comes with and I think it would definetely even out the playing field....having done track days on street and R compound rubber...Was the ZR1's record run at the 'Ring done with its stock PS2 ZP (run-flat) tires?

liqidvenom
01-04-10, 12:32 PM
It's not just the interior. It looks like a riced up Corvette with big brakes. And you're not gonna be on a track or all out every day of the week so why not go with something a little more classy like an Aston Martin, Ferrari, GT3,...or rare like a Viper, Ford GT, Lambo, ....?

Well because I dont have any issues with the interior of the c6 and a aston martin or ferrari isnt much of a daily since they require serious out of warranty costs ever 5-10k miles. i would buy the car to be my dd 90% of the time. 5k miles would come rather quickly. i think the first service on a f430 is like 10-15 THOUSAND dollars. soon i would have bought my car all over again in just simple upkeep.

the ford gt is nice but i see a good handful of vipers often. most of them modded. I also dont have lambo money for the lambos that i want.

liqidvenom
01-04-10, 12:35 PM
Was the ZR1's record run at the 'Ring done with its stock PS2 ZP (run-flat) tires?

yep.


I wouldnt mind a 997 gt2 though. those still cost more used then a new zr1

Z06ified
01-04-10, 12:55 PM
The 911 design hasn't changed in 60 years. Again, it's not about all balls out performance at $120k+ it's about the overall package you could get for that kinda money....IMO there are better choices.


Again, it's just my opinion, it's neither right or wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean by the overall package for that kind of money. Depends what your priorities are. As a top tier performance car, the ZR1 is exceptionally well rounded and liveable, with a huge trunk (for a 2 seater), lots of interior room, a comfy interior with plenty of luxury features such as heated seats, NAV, etc. There are several ultra performance cars with less performance than the ZR1 and costing considerably more, that don't even have carpet, no radio, no NAV, and some don't even have A/C.

Now, does the ZR1 have the best interior for $120k? No. Is it the best looking for $120k? No. Then again, no other car for $120k has the best of all these either.

Jeffrey
01-04-10, 01:54 PM
The V will beat a base Corvette on track, driver for driver, but most wouldn't be able to negotiate the extra weight.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I have an '09 V and an '09 base coupe Vette w/ Z51. Are you certain the V would win?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

jvp
01-04-10, 01:55 PM
I have an '09 V and an '09 base coupe Vette w/ Z51. Are you certain the V would win?

Mike meant base coupe with base suspension. Not the Z51. The Z51 will keep pace with a well-driven CTS-V until the V's brakes and differential overheat.

jas

Jeffrey
01-04-10, 01:59 PM
We have amusing discussions like this all the time on the Corvette Forum. Some people complain on and on that the expensive (and yes, $120K is expensive) ZR1 has a "crappy" interior not suitable for a car its price. They simply don't care to realize the car has $200K worth of performance bundled into that $120K price tag.

Overly-simplifying the formula for designing, engineering, and building a high performance car, we can get this: the total price of the vehicle HAS TO equal the sum of the cost of performance and the cost of "comfort". A + B == C. "A" is the performance costs (engine, transmission, suspension, tires, brakes, etc) of the car, while "B" is the comfort costs (interior, trim, noise deadening, etc). We already know "C", which is about $100K. That was the target Waggoner set for Team Corvette after he saw the Z06. "If that's what you can do for $60K, what can you do for $100K?"

A + B == $100K.

Fixed. Really easy to understand. If you raise A, you HAVE TO drop B. If you raise B, you HAVE TO drop A. Otherwise, "C" has no value whatsoever as a target price.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for folks to understand.

The next challenge I typically throw at the interior detractors is: "If you're so sure GM can build a better interior at that cost, go for it. See what you can come up with, and see if it fits into the cost of the vehicle, keeping in mind volume discounts or lack thereof." No one's been able to do it yet.

jas

Hi jas,

IMO, GM can offer a nice interior in a high performance vehicle for roughly the cost of the new Grand Sport. I offer the V as an example.

OTOH, there are Vette items I wish my V had, such as HUD and oil temp. display.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

jvp
01-04-10, 02:10 PM
IMO, GM can offer a nice interior in a high performance vehicle for roughly the cost of the new Grand Sport. I offer the V as an example.

They really don't compare. The V, as wonderful as it is, is based on a luxury car platform (the CTS). Its first and foremost job is that of a luxury car, not a high performance GT. So, yes, it has a great interior. It HAS to have one. It couldn't be called a luxo car if it didn't.

The Corvette has a different job. It's built as a 2-seater GT, where performance means more than interior luxury. Because of these performance requirements, one of the enemies of the Corvette is mass. The interior of the V is DAMN heavy. The most-excellent Recaro seats, for instance, each weight almost 60lbs before you add on the mounting hardware. That's significant.

A lot of Corvette's R&D money went into keeping the car on a diet while not breaking the bank. Could an up-scale, comfortable, lightweight interior be made for the Corvette? Absolutely. But don't expect to have that and the Corvette's relatively low cost.

It's all about trade-offs. The Corvette's trade-offs are: sacrifice an "up-scale" interior because of mass and cost, so that the car can perform like it does and cost what it does (that, BTW, includes fuel costs).

I've said this multiple times here and on the Corvette Forum: comparing the V to the Corvette is fraught with folly. They're two different cars built for two different reasons. The only thing they really have in common is that they perform at or near the top of their respective markets.

jas

Jeffrey
01-04-10, 04:24 PM
They really don't compare. The V, as wonderful as it is, is based on a luxury car platform (the CTS). Its first and foremost job is that of a luxury car, not a high performance GT. So, yes, it has a great interior. It HAS to have one. It couldn't be called a luxo car if it didn't.

The Corvette has a different job. It's built as a 2-seater GT, where performance means more than interior luxury. Because of these performance requirements, one of the enemies of the Corvette is mass. The interior of the V is DAMN heavy. The most-excellent Recaro seats, for instance, each weight almost 60lbs before you add on the mounting hardware. That's significant.

jas

Hi jas,

IMO, the V has a much better NAV, stereo, and steering wheel. How much heavier are the V's NAV, stereo, and steering wheel compared to the Vettes?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

jvp
01-04-10, 04:35 PM
IMO, the V has a much better NAV, stereo, and steering wheel. How much heavier are the V's NAV, stereo, and steering wheel compared to the Vettes?

Gee.. I smell... bait.

Even if the things you mentioned aren't heavier than the Corvette's, they're more expensive. And at least with the Nav/stereo component, it's a justifiable cost because it's significantly better than the Corvette's is. However, because of cost and integration with HUD, GM decided to use Denso for the Nav system in the Corvette. It's a piece of junk, but until they can get someone else to integrate with the HUD (or they drop that requirement) economically, it'll stay as is.

Keep trying.

jas

wfo
01-04-10, 05:16 PM
Is this Vette going to be a commuter/daily driver? Hope not. IMHO, it might not take it like the V and it shouldn't really. It's a lightweight supercar. i know I might catch heck for saying that. There probably are people driving them daily. The V's more equipped for the daily rigors.

The looks of the Vettes are an absolute killer, a knock out at that. But IMHO, the lightweight seating materials, the brake compound and the overall tightness of car IMHO, will loosen up and creak with daily driving. It did on my 08 Zo6. It was heck to get in and out of, but I do have to admit, I really do miss the musclecar look.

The last thing is...Chevy Deaqlership service levels at this price point would not be commensurate with what you paid.. Certainly not Cadillac level service.

Just my .002

Jeffrey
01-04-10, 05:49 PM
Even if the things you mentioned aren't heavier than the Corvette's, they're more expensive. And at least with the Nav/stereo component, it's a justifiable cost because it's significantly better than the Corvette's is.

Keep trying.

jas

Hi jas,

I think I've followed your argument full circle. When you claimed that GM is not improving the Vette interior due to cost, then I pointed out that GM could produce the much nicer V interior at a relatively comparable price point (relative to the Grand Sport). When you claimed that GM is not improving the Vette interior due to weight concerns, then I asked how much heavier the V's substantially superior NAV, stereo, and steering wheel were compared to the Vette's.

IMO, the V is a better value than a Grand Sport. IOW's, I think you're getting more for your dollar with a V (better interior, engine, paddle shifter, build quality, etc.).

Best regards,
Jeffrey

jvp
01-04-10, 06:00 PM
I think I've followed your argument full circle.

And it's clear you haven't read the entire thread. To wit (read carefully)


A lot of Corvette's R&D money went into keeping the car on a diet while not breaking the bank. Could an up-scale, comfortable, lightweight interior be made for the Corvette? Absolutely. But don't expect to have that and the Corvette's relatively low cost.

It's all about trade-offs. The Corvette's trade-offs are: sacrifice an "up-scale" interior because of mass and cost, so that the car can perform like it does and cost what it does (that, BTW, includes fuel costs).


IMO, the V is a better value than a Grand Sport. IOW's, I think you're getting more for your dollar with a V (better interior, engine, paddle shifter, build quality, etc.).

Good for you. And what you don't get with the V is a car that can last the day of hot'n'heavy track use, like you do with the Grand Sport. the GS has: lower mass, wider tires, lower mass, dry sump oiling, lower mass, better suspension, lower mass, better aerodynamics.. oh.. did I menion lower mass?

Enjoy your cars.

jas

mugatu22
01-05-10, 04:16 AM
And it's clear you haven't read the entire thread. To wit (read carefully)





Good for you. And what you don't get with the V is a car that can last the day of hot'n'heavy track use, like you do with the Grand Sport. the GS has: lower mass, wider tires, lower mass, dry sump oiling, lower mass, better suspension, lower mass, better aerodynamics.. oh.. did I menion lower mass?

Enjoy your cars.

jas


Good lord you're smug and arrogant. I read through this entire thread even if the other gentleman above didn't, and although your points are well taken, reading all of your pompous quips grows incredibly tiresome.

Turn down the dial a few notches, eh?

jvp
01-05-10, 04:41 AM
Good lord you're smug and arrogant. I read through this entire thread even if the other gentleman above didn't, and although your points are well taken, reading all of your pompous quips grows incredibly tiresome.

If you don't like what I'm writing or saying, quit reading? It won't break my heart any. :-)

jas

Z06ified
01-05-10, 04:05 PM
Good for you. And what you don't get with the V is a car that can last the day of hot'n'heavy track use, like you do with the Grand Sport. the GS has: lower mass, wider tires, lower mass, dry sump oiling, lower mass, better suspension, lower mass, better aerodynamics.. oh.. did I menion lower mass?

Enjoy your cars.

jas

I would agree that overall, the GS is a better track car than the V is. However, I disagree with a few of the things you wrote:

The V can certainly last the day of hot n heavy track use. The Monticello Motor Club has a small fleet of them used for exactly that purpose on their track. They may have diff coolers installed, but as far as I know, that is the only 'mod' they have. They seem to be holding up quite well, and they're a year old already.

Dry sump oiling systems are nice, but the reality is many wet sump cars have been running tracks around the world, been driven very hard on tracks, for tens of thousands of track miles without oil related engine problems. A dry sump is a nice piece of engine insurance, but it doesn't mean you don't have a track ready car without it.

The GS has better suspension than the V? How do you figure that? It's the other way around actually. The Corvette and V both have similar front and rear suspension design in terms of they both use double A-arms in the front, and multi-link in the rear. But the V has coil springs all around, versus the GS's transverse leaf springs, and more importantly, the V has the magentic ride control shocks, which are a HUGE advantage (that's why the ZR1 has 'em too ;) ). I'm not knocking the GS - I own an '02 Z06 which has a similar suspension design. I hate to admit it, but the transverse leaf springs do have their limitations, and if you've driven a Corvette near the limit, you know what those limitations are ;) Overall, the GS is a better handling car in terms of its capabilities, but that is mostly a function of 1,000 lbs. less weight, and larger tires. NOT from a better suspension.

Aerodynamics? Maybe a little better with the GS, but not likely to be a factor on the track, only top speed.

jvp
01-05-10, 04:35 PM
The V can certainly last the day of hot n heavy track use.

Have you spent a day beating on your CTS-V on the road course yet? Are you familiar with the limitations of the stock brake rotors as well as the un-cooled differential? When you've punished your V (as much as the tires will let you that is) on a road course, let me know if you still feel the same way. :-)


Dry sump oiling systems are nice, but the reality is many wet sump cars have been running tracks around the world, been driven very hard on tracks, for tens of thousands of track miles without oil related engine problems. A dry sump is a nice piece of engine insurance, but it doesn't mean you don't have a track ready car without it.

True. But the LS line of engines has a very shallow oil pan, which was the reason GM decided to go with a dry sump system on the LS7 to begin with. Hell, even on my C5 I saw the oil pressure very quickly bounce of 0 and back up again during hard cornering. Will that happen to all Corvettes or other cars will LS engines? No. Is the risk there? Absolutely.


The GS has better suspension than the V? How do you figure that?

Flatter cornering due to the stiffer (Z51) suspension. Clearly not as solid as the Z06's is, but it's certainly going to roar through esses on a track without feeling like it's going to roll over. The V doesn't quite deliver that same glued-down feeling on the track.


versus the GS's transverse leaf springs, and more importantly, the V has the magentic ride control shocks, which are a HUGE advantage (that's why the ZR1 has 'em too ;) )

I'll never belittle the RTD system in any vehicle. But to point to it as an aide in track handling is silly. What the RTD does do for a vehicle is expand the chassis operating envelope. It allows the car to do more things fairly well vs. a few things really well. The ZR1's biggest advantage in handling over its brethen is the 4 chunks of rubber touching the road, not the RTD. The RTD helps keep the car comfortable when NOT tracking.


I hate to admit it, but the transverse leaf springs do have their limitations, and if you've driven a Corvette near the limit, you know what those limitations are

Enumerate them. If the first thing you say is "cross-talk" I'll instantly ignore anything you say afterward. There is a lot of misunderstanding of the leafs. They do have one minor disadvantage in that they're not configurable per track like coil springs are. Coils allow you to customize spring rates per wheel, something leafs don't do.

But a spring is a spring is a spring is a spring.


Overall, the GS is a better handling car in terms of its capabilities, but that is mostly a function of 1,000 lbs. less weight, and larger tires. NOT from a better suspension.

I'm glad you think so. I disagree, having spent a lot of years on the race track with various generations of Corvette as well as my CTS-V. When you've done some hot laps in your V, let's discuss this topic again and we'll see if you feel the same way.


Aerodynamics? Maybe a little better with the GS, but not likely to be a factor on the track, only top speed.

Think so? How about fuel use? :-)

jas

Z06ified
01-05-10, 05:17 PM
Have you spent a day beating on your CTS-V on the road course yet? Are you familiar with the limitations of the stock brake rotors as well as the un-cooled differential? When you've punished your V (as much as the tires will let you that is) on a road course, let me know if you still feel the same way. :-)

I absolutely intend to. There are two things preventing me from trying my V on the track right now: 1) it's new and still in the break-in with only 900 miles on the clock, and 2) it's cold and snowy here where I live - no track time until April at the earliest. But I will definitely track my V in the summer, and I will see how it holds up. I expect to see diff temp warnings show up, but that's about it. What are the limitations on the brake rotors?


Hell, even on my C5 I saw the oil pressure very quickly bounce of 0 and back up again during hard cornering. Will that happen to all Corvettes or other cars will LS engines? No. Is the risk there? Absolutely.

Were you running 1 quart over full when you saw that 0 oil pressure?


Flatter cornering due to the stiffer (Z51) suspension.

Flatter cornering and stiffer does not equal better suspension.


Clearly not as solid as the Z06's is, but it's certainly going to roar through esses on a track without feeling like it's going to roll over. The V doesn't quite deliver that same glued-down feeling on the track.

The V happens to corner very flatly, again thanks to the magnetic shocks. More flatly than the Corvette? Hard to tell, because the sensation of roll is more pronounced due to the taller profile and higher seating position of the V.

Of course it's not going to feel as glued down as a GS. It weighs 4,200 lbs. and it has smaller tires!!

But I think its over 71 MPH slalom speed demonstrates the V's handling prowess, and in particular its suspension design, quite well.


I'll never belittle the RTD system in any vehicle. But to point to it as an aide in track handling is silly. What the RTD does do for a vehicle is expand the chassis operating envelope. It allows the car to do more things fairly well vs. a few things really well. The ZR1's biggest advantage in handling over its brethen is the 4 chunks of rubber touching the road, not the RTD. The RTD helps keep the car comfortable when NOT tracking.

Yes, well that is the product of a better suspension design, and is exactly my point. Any moron can make a car handle well on a track with a rock hard suspension that will break your teeth going over bumps.


Enumerate them.

For one, they make the rear suspension in the Corvette twitchy on bumpy corners near the limit. Hit a mid-corner bump at a high rate of speed near the limit, and the rear will immediately hop up in the air and step out, almost like a live axle car would. It rarely involves a major oversteer or disaster, but it is certainly unsettling, especially in the triple digits. And it is NOT a good handling characteristic. I've heard (but not experienced) aftermarket coilovers eliminates this.


If the first thing you say is "cross-talk" I'll instantly ignore anything you say afterward.

You act like I would care if you ignored anything I said afterward. That was an a-hole comment. I can be an a-hole too, but I'm usually a nice guy. You really don't want me to go there, so let's keep things nice and polite, shall we? :thepan:



Think so? How about fuel use? :-)

jas

You can't compare the fuel usage difference between the V and GS and attribute the difference to solely aerodynamics. The two biggest fuel usage differences are the supercharger and the weight. The two combined are good for 4 MPG on the highway, at least. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the supercharger, and I wish GM went with a twin turbo setup instead, which would have been much more efficient on the highway.

jvp
01-05-10, 05:35 PM
What are the limitations on the brake rotors?

The don't deal with the rigor of the heat as well as the track rotors would (if we ever got them). They'll form lots of little grooves on them after they get abused, and it'll feel like they're warped or covered with something. Hard braking after they've cooled will help solve that. Basically, they just don't shed heat quickly enough.


Were you running 1 quart over full when you saw that 0 oil pressure?


Yes and no. It didn't matter. The turn in question is actually 2 (turns 1 and 2 at Summit Point), and it's a reasonably fast, high-G turn that takes a second or two to get through. During that time, even an overfilled tank will slosh.


Flatter cornering and stiffer does not equal better suspension

Nope, but it does mean the car can transition through esses better and under more control.


But I think its over 71 MPH slalom speed demonstrates the V's handling prowess, and in particular its suspension design, quite well.

*cough* Tires *cough*


For one, they make the rear suspension in the Corvette twitchy on bumpy corners near the limit.

That has nothing to do with the rear leaf spring, but rather the spring rate and the fact that coil overs also change the shocks. Fortunately, for those of us that have driven Corvettes for a while, that supposed twitchy reaction isn't really an issue. :-)


I can be an a-hole too

I've no doubt of that. In the least.


You really don't want me to go there, so let's keep things nice and polite, shall we?

Awwww. Diddums just threaten to smack me down on an Internet forum?

How about we just agree to disagree. When you've bitch-slapped your V on the track, let me know how it turns out.

jas

lmcgrew79
01-05-10, 05:52 PM
I thinks this v vs z is not even a valid argument. Its like biscuits vs rolls.. they both are bread and taste good, but they serve different purposes. I'd dont think either are great dailey drivers, they are both performance cars in there own right, one is just competing against 4 super fast doors sedans, the other is competing as a super car. A malibu or something is a good dailey driver. ex. good gas mileage, good pricing, who cares is the doors get banged a lil or salt underneat. Its meant for point a to point b. So then again It just boils down to preference. No way will a car that is 1000 pounds heavier and lacking 80 hp or so out perform without some heavy mods. Again is is twice the price. Who know who cares...Im bored

BacDoc
01-05-10, 09:19 PM
The argument was, for $120k any Corvette is not at the top of my list. Is it worth $120k? I'm sure. Do you need a hobby? Absolutely.

lmcgrew79
01-05-10, 10:41 PM
My hobbies are partly consumed by the cold weather and all this snow....lol

undertaker
01-06-10, 12:24 AM
honestly I'd say keep the V and pick up a nice grandsport and have both worlds, if the grandsport isn't fast enough put a blower on it and its as fast as the ZR1.

as for vettes and oiling.........put some sticky rubber on a C5 or C6 vette and do some track days especially with a built motor and a high volume pump and you'll be surprised........I have quite a few friends I track with, with cars from different shops who have all popped motors after 20-25 track days.....we're all on big brakes and race rubber at this point and we're just starving the damn motors.......and yes we run extra, most of us 15w50 vs. the light weight stuff.......its unfortunately a design flaw.....one guy even took out his LS7 with a factory dry sump, we're all at the point of debating pulling AC compressors for real race dry sumps and pretty much making the cars race cars.......(luckily for me I have 2 vettes and my track car doesn't have plates, a radio, ac, mufflers or any extra unnecessary weight/bs stuff so I don't mind it.) Its a known problem on any tracks with long sustained G turns. Race rubber just amplifies it.

mugatu22
01-06-10, 03:54 AM
If you don't like what I'm writing or saying, quit reading? It won't break my heart any. :-)

jas

The default smug retort.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Z06ified
01-06-10, 10:16 AM
The don't deal with the rigor of the heat as well as the track rotors would (if we ever got them). They'll form lots of little grooves on them after they get abused, and it'll feel like they're warped or covered with something. Hard braking after they've cooled will help solve that. Basically, they just don't shed heat quickly enough.

Big deal. Nearly all factory rotors will do that when abused on the track. If the rotors cracked or severely warped on the track, THAT would be a notable limitation of the brake rotors. What you're talking about is minor, and the way you wrote it, it sounds like it doesn't happen often, and you're almost speculating that it will.

NEXT.


Yes and no. It didn't matter. The turn in question is actually 2 (turns 1 and 2 at Summit Point), and it's a reasonably fast, high-G turn that takes a second or two to get through. During that time, even an overfilled tank will slosh.

So the answer is no, you didn't add a quart over full like you were supposed to. Maybe you should read the manual first. You say it wouldn't matter. Then you are saying that the engineers who designed the LS V-8 and the C5 Corvette are wrong.

I haven't heard of any oil starvation issues on the track with C5 Corvettes for those who did overfill by 1 quart, as the manual states.



*cough* Tires *cough*

Tires? That's it? No suspension is involved with slalom? That would be a neat trick.

Tires have something to do with it, but nowhere near everything. You can see this in the different slalom speeds of similar cars that use the same tires.


That has nothing to do with the rear leaf spring, but rather the spring rate and the fact that coil overs also change the shocks. Fortunately, for those of us that have driven Corvettes for a while, that supposed twitchy reaction isn't really an issue. :-)

Try again, because I'm pulling the B.S. flag on your explanation. And your theory that a spring is a spring is a spring is completely wrong. Torsion bars react differently from leaf springs which react differently from coil springs.

I've driven Corvettes for 16 years - the rear end twitch isn't a problem for me. But that doesn't mean it isn't a crappy handling trait of the Corvette, and a flaw in the suspension design. Look, I love Corvettes, but they are not perfect, and the leaf springs is one of it's flaws. Not a major flaw, but a flaw.



Awwww. Diddums just threaten to smack me down on an Internet forum?

You must be bored.

Not a threat. I'm your huckleberry.... Say "when" ;)

You sound like you're very disappointed in your CTS-V. Why don't you sell it then, and buy a better performance sedan. Good luck finding one.

jvp
01-06-10, 01:15 PM
What you're talking about is minor, and the way you wrote it, it sounds like it doesn't happen often, and you're almost speculating that it will.

If it doesn't happen, you're not using your brakes hard enough. Been there, done that.


So the answer is no, you didn't add a quart over full like you were supposed to.

Yes, I did add a quart. I did read the manual. It DIDN'T MATTER on long, high-G sweepers.


I haven't heard of any oil starvation issues on the track with C5 Corvettes for those who did overfill by 1 quart, as the manual states.

I guess mine was broken. Oh well. Good thing GM kept up with that "add a quart" idea and didn't try to develop a dry-sump system for the LS7s, huh? And when they realized the first attempt at a dry-sump didn't work, they didn't redesign it with a larger tank, huh?


Look, I love Corvettes, but they are not perfect, and the leaf springs is one of it's flaws. Not a major flaw, but a flaw.

It's not a flaw in the ways people think it is. It doesn't contribute to the "twitchy-ness" of the car. Spring rates, shock valving, alignments, tire contact patches, etc will contribute. But the fact the springs are both transverse aren't what causes it.


You sound like you're very disappointed in your CTS-V. Why don't you sell it then, and buy a better performance sedan. Good luck finding one.

The V and I aren't compatible. It's a fabulous car and I love driving it. But I like Corvettes better. So I'm going back to a Z06 with the 2011s are released. I'm not interested in looking for a "better" performance sedan. I know the V is the top dog in that market.

The point of this entire thread was the ridiculousness involved in comparing the Corvettes to the CTS-Vs. They're both wonderful cars, and at or near the top of their respective markets as far as performance is concerned. But they're not really comparable.

jas

Z06ified
01-06-10, 05:09 PM
The point of this entire thread was the ridiculousness involved in comparing the Corvettes to the CTS-Vs. They're both wonderful cars, and at or near the top of their respective markets as far as performance is concerned. But they're not really comparable.
jas

I completely agree with that statement, so let's call it a day :thumbsup:

Why wait for the 2011 Z06? Are they changing something with it for the 2011 model? I haven't been keeping up with my Corvette rumor news since I started my V purchase research.

thebigjimsho
01-06-10, 06:41 PM
I like chicken. I like donuts. I like Marge's House of chicken and donuts...

jvp
01-06-10, 09:39 PM
Why wait for the 2011 Z06? Are they changing something with it for the 2011 model? I haven't been keeping up with my Corvette rumor news since I started my V purchase research.

I just want the newest I can afford, and figure I'll be ready to buy come May/June when the new ones start rolling off the line. I don't know what's changing for the '11s, if anything.

jas

caddynoob
01-07-10, 06:09 PM
If the OP is still interested in the ZR1. This one is $10000 off MSRP.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-corvette-zr1/2502616-new-2009-zr1-10-000-off-msrp.html

Even paying someone to do the leg work for you to import it into Canada. Even after 13% GST+PST in Ontario, it can probably be done in CAD$130,000 or less.

I can't justify it myself with the long Canadian winter. I rather have a CTS-V and a Subaru STi to throw around in the snow. Plus that I can take my business associates out to lunch in the CTS-V, but I can't quite do the same with the ZR1.

But I am sure we all can agree that it is hell of a car.

c4ss
01-08-10, 12:28 AM
I like chicken. I like donuts. I like Marge's House of chicken and donuts...


:food-snacking:

wfo
01-08-10, 04:21 PM
:banghead:

thebigjimsho
01-08-10, 11:08 PM
it's tru.