: Upgraded Audio & Weight Distribution



NeedCTS-v
12-11-09, 06:40 PM
Hi folks,

I wanted to get your opinion on something.

After much consideration, I have decided to move forward with a signficant audio upgrade to my V. When the time comes, I will start a build thread.

Obviously, additional weight is the enemy of speed but this is an area where I'm willing to make some trade offs (not many though). The design of the system will geared to be as light weight as possible but the real question I have comes to the distribution of weight.

The vehicle weight from the factory is 4200-4300 lbs (given options and transmission choice). The wieght distribution has been published as 54/46 for the Auto and 53/47 for the 6M. My car is equipped with the 6M.

So for the sake of the discussion, let's assume that my car weighs 4200 lbs on the mark, 57% (2394lbs) is biased towards the front of the car. If I were to split the weight down the middle (2100 lbs) it would leave a difference of 294 lbs that could be applied to the rear of the vehicle before reaching a perfect 50/50 weight distirbution. By the way, I do not plan on putting anywhere near 300lbs of crap in the trunk.

But for the sake of sanity, is it safe to say, that the addition of some weight (100-130 lbs) would not disrupt the overall balance and handling of the car?

Thanks for your input.

Uriel
12-11-09, 08:01 PM
Well, If she is 125# and 5'-9" and 36-24-36 (called a brick house) and sitting in the front passenger seat and smiling at you lustfully, well I think you won't care much about the added weight. Or were you talking about something else?

NeedCTS-v
12-11-09, 08:26 PM
Well, If she is 125# and 5'-9" and 36-24-36 (called a brick house) and sitting in the front passenger seat and smiling at you lustfully, well I think you won't care much about the added weight. Or were you talking about something else?

If she was in the trunk (Texas Style) would the car handle any better/worse. Would the disadvantages of the additional weight outweigh (no pun intended) any advantage of being closer to a 50/50 weight bias?

thebigjimsho
12-11-09, 11:56 PM
Anyone have specs on the Bose drivers? When I saw the stock speakers for sale on ebay I about squidged on the upgrade potential. Looks like 8" midbass drivers in the doors and room for some Esotars in the dash...:bouncy:

Zexnos
12-12-09, 01:03 AM
Anyone have specs on the Bose drivers? When I saw the stock speakers for sale on ebay I about squidged on the upgrade potential. Looks like 8" midbass drivers in the doors and room for some Esotars in the dash...:bouncy:

I would do some research on the Bose system. The Bose speakers can be odd in GM vehicles. Odd as in 1/2 ohm speakers that are a pain in the butt to replace with anything aftermarket.

NeedCTS-v
12-12-09, 03:44 AM
Anyone have specs on the Bose drivers? When I saw the stock speakers for sale on ebay I about squidged on the upgrade potential. Looks like 8" midbass drivers in the doors and room for some Esotars in the dash...:bouncy:

You pretty much need to do a full replacement.

Audison BitOne off the factory amp. mObridge may or may not work but their customer service and call return policy is crap so screw 'em.

The plan is...
Dynaudio Esotec MW182 10" in the doors.
Dynaudio Esotar 2 110 Tweeters in the A pillar
Dynaudio Esotar 2 430 4" mids in the the kicks
A pair of Dynaudio Esotar 2 1200 12" Subs firing IB into the trunk.

I already have an Audison Thesis Sedici amplifier BNIB (it's more of a collectors piece) and I'm unsure of what amplification I'm going to run.

If I need to keep weight to a serious minimum I will go JL HD series class D. If I have some flexibility on weight, I'm thinking Audison (Thesis Duo/Quattro), Genesis, Sinfoni or TRU Billet. More on this later. These higher end amps could easily set me back 6-8K

Again, if anyone has any input on adding weight to the trunk, I'd be greatful!

THX!

thebigjimsho
12-12-09, 04:21 AM
I would do some research on the Bose system. The Bose speakers can be odd in GM vehicles. Odd as in 1/2 ohm speakers that are a pain in the butt to replace with anything aftermarket.
No need. I'd be gutting everything but the actual head unit...

Tony407
12-12-09, 05:25 AM
Well good luck.

I have a 10-inch mounted IB in the trunk...I'm not sure how you're going to get two 12s squeezed in there. I have my JL Audio 750/1 HD amp in the spare tire well...it's a great spot for amps if they don't need much ventilation.

I also ran into some problems with the electrical system. For whatever reason, there's no dedicated 12-volt wire anywhere in the trunk that's tied to the audio system so I can have power only when the stereo is on. Plus, every time you open a door, or the doors lock automatically, or you open the trunk there's a voltage spike and my amp turns on for a brief time and gives my sub a nice thump. I'm not sure what the hell's going on but it's a first for me. And all the audio wires coming in and out of the Bose amp are all 4 or 5 volts and not enough to trigger the amp either. Even my Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 was rendered completely useless.

Obviously you know good equipment and I applaud your choice of the Dyns. I have a 360 set tri-amped in my Mustang and I love them to death.

But I'd do a ton of research first if I were you. Things aren't what they used to be. I gutted the entire Bose system in my 2001 Maxima without a single hitch but I get the distinct impression you'll be in for more than a few surprises in the V. Just an educated guess...

Tony

richeic77
12-12-09, 05:55 AM
I'm subscribing to whatever thread you put together. I've heard the System in this car is very good, but I'm closing in on 2 decades of Car Stereo building so I'm sure I will find issues. Spent a couple years building 3-4 different system for IASCA Sound Q and took the plung into SPL comp. Not that I will do anything SPL like in this car. I want it for road racing. Aperiodic Dampening would be perfect for this system. I'm not sure you can find them anymore and they have to be matched to the speaker to use. I'm drawing a blank on who made them. I want to say SpeakerWorks out of California. They may be closed now so I'm not sure who would make one.

For trunk weight, you can do a test. You have the G-meter in the dash and your own but to measure the vehicle dynamics with. For test purpuses, you should mount down about 100-150 lbs to see what kind of change there is. I figure you are planning to mount the sub firiing into the vehicle thru the seat opening? You should strap the weight down there.

Tony, Is you Amp a voltage sensing turn-on? Or is the typical 3-wire power set-up? If it is, you can put a small Diode inline with the remote turn-on to keep it from powering on in the situations you described. Figure you will spend a Wopping $3 or so on part from Radio shack. And you'll end up with about another 5-9 to share. (Come in multi-packs for the size you need. I'll have to look up the sizing for the job)

richeic77
12-12-09, 06:02 AM
Found the place. SpeakerWorks/USD Audio. The are still open. They still have their AP Mat's.

http://www.usdaudio.com/products/ap.php

I think I'll give them a call sometime to discuss building an enclosure......

thebigjimsho
12-12-09, 11:39 AM
I'm subscribing to whatever thread you put together. I've heard the System in this car is very good, but I'm closing in on 2 decades of Car Stereo building so I'm sure I will find issues. Spent a couple years building 3-4 different system for IASCA Sound Q and took the plung into SPL comp. Not that I will do anything SPL like in this car. I want it for road racing. Aperiodic Dampening would be perfect for this system. I'm not sure you can find them anymore and they have to be matched to the speaker to use. I'm drawing a blank on who made them. I want to say SpeakerWorks out of California. They may be closed now so I'm not sure who would make one.

For trunk weight, you can do a test. You have the G-meter in the dash and your own but to measure the vehicle dynamics with. For test purpuses, you should mount down about 100-150 lbs to see what kind of change there is. I figure you are planning to mount the sub firiing into the vehicle thru the seat opening? You should strap the weight down there.

Tony, Is you Amp a voltage sensing turn-on? Or is the typical 3-wire power set-up? If it is, you can put a small Diode inline with the remote turn-on to keep it from powering on in the situations you described. Figure you will spend a Wopping $3 or so on part from Radio shack. And you'll end up with about another 5-9 to share. (Come in multi-packs for the size you need. I'll have to look up the sizing for the job)
hmm, you worked in car audio? Yeah, the Bose is not nearly good enough. It's much better than in the V1, but still nowhere near audiophile quality.

BUT, it's really setup well and little modification needs to be done to the locations to make a great sounding system. I'm not a competitor, just someone who appreciates a well staged car. So I plan on just replacing the drivers in their locations. And since there will be 8" already up front, I think just replacing the 10" in the rear deck with a better IB sub and sealing the pass-through to the trunk OR mounting a sealed unit where it is mounted to the deck will suffice for me...

thebigjimsho
12-12-09, 11:41 AM
And I will be tracking the V1 once it's rebuilt. For me, this car is too heavy to track to my liking. Who knows, it may still see the track.(And not this straight line stuff some people think is a track. Twisty stuff...)

Tony407
12-12-09, 12:43 PM
Found the place. SpeakerWorks/USD Audio. The are still open. They still have their AP Mat's.

http://www.usdaudio.com/products/ap.php

I think I'll give them a call sometime to discuss building an enclosure......

I've heard really good things about the USD mats. However, you can make your own using plain ol' fiberglass insulation. I can't remember where the write up was, but I did one for my Maxima and it sounded phenomenal. By using the fiberglass you can add or subtract layers to tune the box. It worked out really well.

Tony

vseries
12-12-09, 01:06 PM
2 12''s in the trunk may be a bit much it and will end up rattling a perfect car apart as it takes its toll, I have a 1 JL 12" box in the trunk of my 04 and removed the stock sub to act as a port and the bass is more than enough.

As far as the 50/50 thing its not always perfect it all depends on the driver and how they like the car , I used to have a g35 coupe that was 50/50 and it took alot of fun out of RWD as there is alot less room for correction before the tail comes out passed the front.

NeedCTS-v
12-12-09, 01:28 PM
Tony,

Good feedback and thanks for the warnings.

Headunit/Source. Unfortunately, there is no way to bypass the factory amp short of using a mObridge DA 1000/2000 OEM interface which actually interfaces with the "MOST" data bus and spits out a pure digital signal. Unfortunately, this system is being marketed and sold to German car owners (primarily) and there is very little information as to whether it will work with the Caddy. I've contact mObridge several times as well as Bose and Cadillac. No one knows anything.

What this means. I will need to use the Audison Bit 1 which is an awesome 4 way (8channel) digital processor. It will interface directly with the high-level output wires directly off of the Bose amplifier. Similar to the 360, during the setup the B1 will compensate for any system EQ being done at the amplifier (across the entire system gain/volume range). Lastly, the Audison has a remote control with on/off controls. This will also serve as the amplifier remote switch. You guys should do a search for the Bit One. It's pretty sweet! If I decide to use the Audison Thesis amplifiers, I can create an "addressed" network across the Audison gear and control all of it from the B1s remote. The amplifiers will also take a direct digital feed from the B1.

As for room, I'm thinking that I can figure it out (I actually think I can fit 15s if I wanted). I don't want to do any cutting to the car so I will likely seal off the factory sub location (as part of the IB) and use the main baffle firing into the cabin through the seats. Remember 80% of the car's sub stage will actually be in the front of the car. The Esotec 182s mounted in the doors are 10" subs which will happily play to +/- 30 hz. The Esotar subs in the trunk are there purely to augment that lowest octave. When this thing is done, you should have no idea that there is any subsonic information coming from behind you. The real work here is that I'm going to have to rebuild the door panels to accommodate the door speakers and avoid cutting up the door itself. It's bad enough that I'm going to have to put 50 or so feet of dynamat on each door.

If any one else is thinking about doing this, check out audison.com it's probably the best way to deal with the OEM interface in our cars (if doing a total system).

Here's a couple pics of my last major system (bunch of years ago). I won't be doing anything this extreme this time around. Clean an simple.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/transam_int_covered_2.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/transam_uncovoered_1.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/transam_trunk_1.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/transam_uncovoered_5.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/transam_uncovoered_6.jpg

Full set of pics at http://www.lagmonster.info/transam


Well good luck.

I have a 10-inch mounted IB in the trunk...I'm not sure how you're going to get two 12s squeezed in there. I have my JL Audio 750/1 HD amp in the spare tire well...it's a great spot for amps if they don't need much ventilation.

I also ran into some problems with the electrical system. For whatever reason, there's no dedicated 12-volt wire anywhere in the trunk that's tied to the audio system so I can have power only when the stereo is on. Plus, every time you open a door, or the doors lock automatically, or you open the trunk there's a voltage spike and my amp turns on for a brief time and gives my sub a nice thump. I'm not sure what the hell's going on but it's a first for me. And all the audio wires coming in and out of the Bose amp are all 4 or 5 volts and not enough to trigger the amp either. Even my Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 was rendered completely useless.

Obviously you know good equipment and I applaud your choice of the Dyns. I have a 360 set tri-amped in my Mustang and I love them to death.

But I'd do a ton of research first if I were you. Things aren't what they used to be. I gutted the entire Bose system in my 2001 Maxima without a single hitch but I get the distinct impression you'll be in for more than a few surprises in the V. Just an educated guess...

Tony

NeedCTS-v
12-12-09, 02:28 PM
No need. I'd be gutting everything but the actual head unit...

Bigjim,

Unfortunately there is nothing to grab from the head unit because it is all data/bus. Nothing is usable until you get to the Bose amplifier itself which is polluted with tons of DSP crap (time alignment, volume specific equalization designed to dynamically contour the sound and protect the drivers at higher levels, etc.) not to mention it's all crossed over at different frequencies so you'll be luck to find a single "full range" signal anywhere.

That's what the Audison Bit one does. it grabs all of the Bose garbage and reconstructs a single full range, unprocessed stereo signal and then routes it back out to 8 fully user controllable channels (crossovers, time alignment, parametric equalization/each channel) as well as a "pure" digital out (if you need it).

Also, if you're interested in the Esotar 2 stuff let me know. The list on this stuff is CRAZY! $1600 for the tweeter alone :eek: The subs are $1500 each. I can put you in touch with one of their distributes directly to help take some of the edge off.

richeic77
12-12-09, 03:54 PM
The Head Unit for the NAV is made by Alpine for GM. ou may want to call them and find out more about the HU for the installation. Might be much easier to get a signal output frrom the Deck. Or it could be a pain since it seems to be tied into the car's bus.

Only way I'll know anything myself is when I get back to the states and take a good look at the car myself. I'm a tinkerer by nature so. Already bought the unlocker from wait4me so I'll proably leave it alone or 1 day before panels start coming off. LOL. Then it'll be onto the rest of the car.

What I was think is this: If you can do an Aperiodic or IB set-up firing thru the ski-opening in the back-seat, it'll seal up the trunk, but also be the opening thru which the bass reaches the interior. Win-Win in that set-ip.

I'm definitely going to want to find that article about the homemade Apet-up since I like DIY projects. Sounds like something right up my alley. To keep it real light, I could mold a piece of Fiberglass board or Carbon Fiber with an Aluminum trim ring and mount it in back. VERY minimal weight, but good stifness. Triangulated AL bars could be use for cross-bracing also. Couple that with an Aperiodic small chamber and it'll fit with Min weight, Min space, but maximum effectiveness. Sounds like something I hope I have to time to work on.

Damn. I was hoping this might be the 1st car I'd leave alone for atleast a month.

NeedCTS-v
12-12-09, 04:27 PM
Here's a good link to information on AP enclosures.

http://www.teamaudionutz.com/tutorial/1/AP_Enclosures-The_Aperiodic_Cookbook

Honestly, AP made good sense back in the day but given the right drivers you can do just fine with IB as long as your trunk is good and "dead". The primary benefit from AP these days would be any flattening of the frequency response that it provides.

The Dyn 1200s will work fine without AP, I also have a pair of Image Dynamics IDW15s (one of the best SQ IB drivers ever produced) and I myself would not run AP with those. The exception to these rules IMHO would be speakers like the Morel Ultimo 12s or 10s which are specifically designed for a sealed or ported enclosure. They will respond very well to AP but not IB and an AP enclosure will allow you to get away with a very small enclosure compared to sealed or ported.

Back to the head unit and the importance of the bus. "IF" you can find a way to grab a signal directly from the head unit before the amp and the independent of the bus, you may be able to get a clean audio signal but you will bypass all of the vehicle's features that utilize the audio system (Navigation, blue tooth, OnStar, etc.).

Keep in mind that I don't work for Audison, I only keep mentioning the Bit One because it is the best product for our particular application. If you have a need for a very high end or pure digital audio source just use one of the B1s multiple analog and digital auxilary inputs to bypass the OEM system entirely. It's not like it is a crazy expensive piece, list is $800 and you can find 'em used for $500.




The Head Unit for the NAV is made by Alpine for GM. ou may want to call them and find out more about the HU for the installation. Might be much easier to get a signal output frrom the Deck. Or it could be a pain since it seems to be tied into the car's bus.

Only way I'll know anything myself is when I get back to the states and take a good look at the car myself. I'm a tinkerer by nature so. Already bought the unlocker from wait4me so I'll proably leave it alone or 1 day before panels start coming off. LOL. Then it'll be onto the rest of the car.

What I was think is this: If you can do an Aperiodic or IB set-up firing thru the ski-opening in the back-seat, it'll seal up the trunk, but also be the opening thru which the bass reaches the interior. Win-Win in that set-ip.

I'm definitely going to want to find that article about the homemade Apet-up since I like DIY projects. Sounds like something right up my alley. To keep it real light, I could mold a piece of Fiberglass board or Carbon Fiber with an Aluminum trim ring and mount it in back. VERY minimal weight, but good stifness. Triangulated AL bars could be use for cross-bracing also. Couple that with an Aperiodic small chamber and it'll fit with Min weight, Min space, but maximum effectiveness. Sounds like something I hope I have to time to work on.

Damn. I was hoping this might be the 1st car I'd leave alone for atleast a month.

thebigjimsho
12-12-09, 10:56 PM
I'm familiar with the Bit One and am a big fan of Audison, even though I've never used them. I have a friend who I believe has a contact with Audison. 'll have to talk to him...

NeedCTS-v
12-13-09, 03:33 PM
I'm familiar with the Bit One and am a big fan of Audison, even though I've never used them. I have a friend who I believe has a contact with Audison. 'll have to talk to him...

If you go with the Audison make sure you get the Bit One".1"

It is a slightly newer version which resolves a few bugs found in the initial release. This shouldn't be an issue if you buy directly from Audison (it's the only version they sell now) but if you go with a used unit, make sure you get the latest.

NeedCTS-v
12-18-09, 12:51 AM
Dynaudio Esotar 2s ordered :bouncy:

Should be here before Christmas.

thebigjimsho
12-18-09, 01:04 AM
Dynaudio Esotar 2s ordered :bouncy:

Should be here before Christmas.
Nice!

NeedCTS-v
12-19-09, 01:05 AM
Nice!

Thanks!

Just ordered. Is being custom made anodized black with custom op-amps for the Esotars and should be here by new years. This will run the front stage with two sets of bridged channels to the Esotec 10" subs in the doors.

http://www.trutechnology.com/products/billet/b8s_09.htm :lildevil:

thebigjimsho
12-19-09, 03:47 PM
Thanks!

Just ordered. Is being custom made anodized black with custom op-amps for the Esotars and should be here by new years. This will run the front stage with two sets of bridged channels to the Esotec 10" subs in the doors.

http://www.trutechnology.com/products/billet/b8s_09.htm :lildevil:
You're going to run one of those for your front sound stage? Egads, man. How much for each? And what are you going to do for the center channel?

NeedCTS-v
12-19-09, 07:09 PM
You're going to run one of those for your front sound stage? Egads, man. How much for each? And what are you going to do for the center channel?

Well, there are a couple of elements to this.
1. if I do this properly, I will not need to use a center channel (or any of the dash speakers at all). The sound stage should be just as high and centered as OEM (better actually) but the perception of stage width and depth should extend beyond the cockpit (out to the mirrors and down the hood).

2. If I decide to at a later date I can add a center, but this will close the stage in quite a bit as well as probably change the tonality of the system due to all of the glass reflections.

As for the costs, this equipment is not cheap. I went with the Esotar 2 110 tweeters (list 1800 pair), Esotar 2 430 4" mids (list around 1600 pair), Esotec MW182 9.4" subs for the factory door location (list around $1000) and finally a single Esotar 2 1200 12" sub, I made add another later (list around 1500 each).

The Tru Billet is upgraded to my specs with a custom input board, op-amps (bur brown) and the anodized black is also special so the total retail for something like that is getting close to 4k.

The Try will have 4 channels bridged sending about 300wpc to each of the Dynaudio 9s. The other 4 channels will send approximately 100wpc to each of the mids and tweeters. Keep in mind that Tru amps are underrated so these output estimates are pretty conservative. All told, it should be a pretty dynamic system.

I also have an Audison Thesis Sedici that I will be using for sub duty until I can raise enough money for another Tru Billet and after I figure out if I will need anther sub or not. It should get the job done though (160x2 or 700x1 bridged @ 4ohms almost 1kw bridged at 2ohms). Honestly it's a waste of this particular amp which is very rare and one of the best SQ amplifiers ever made (they're not made anymore).

In any event, I have someone that I work with for this type of higher end stuff and he takes pretty good care of me. If you're interested PM me for details.

thebigjimsho
12-19-09, 07:22 PM
Oh, I'm interested, no doubt. But there is no way I can spend anywhere near that much coin. I'll need to go much simpler and cheaper.

NeedCTS-v
12-29-09, 06:38 PM
Okay. Finally some pics for those of you interested in aftermarket audio.

For those not familiar with Dynaudio...this is decent stuff. :)

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0026.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0027.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0028.jpg

This is not a sub...Try a 3.5" mid range :eek:
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0031.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0029.jpg

For size comparison...
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0032.jpg

The tweeters are actually the same size as the mids.
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0033.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0034.jpg

For mid bass we actually went to the Esotec series and will be using their 9.4" MW182 drive units. These were chosen because they will drop into the factory door locations with no cutting of the panel or metal. With enough deadening of the doors, these should be able to generate clean, dynamic music in the 35-40hz range. We're talking about a lot of up front bass.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0039.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0040.jpg

and here's the sub. I may add another one, but based on what I've been hearing, as well as having 10" subs up front, one should be enough.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0037.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0036.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0038.jpg

I'll be uploading more pics once some of the other gear comes in. The 1st of three TRU Billet amps is supposed to be shipping today. I've since added a Billet 2200 for sub duty as well a Billet 4100 for future expansion (such as staging tweeters, center channel, etc.) This however would require the addition of a second Audison BitOne.

Tony407
12-30-09, 02:20 AM
Completely awesome. I've never had experience with the Esotar line, but I can only assume it's even better than their Esotec, which I absolutely love. I've had a 360 component set (8-inch mid bass, 3-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeters) for at least 10 years and they're going STRONG and I play the crap out of them. They've been installed in 3 different cars of mine. For what it's worth, I have the two 8-inch midbasses in the front doors of my Mustang (not even that well damped) and they're playing all the way down to 20 Hz on my crossover and at times I don't even have to turn my sub on. They actually sound better (not as loud of course) than my sub does on many types of music. They're crazy. I can only imagine what kind of sound you'll have running through your car if you have you way! :eek:

Tony

NeedCTS-v
12-30-09, 10:18 AM
Thanks Tony!

I'm basically going for a very similar setup to your 360 system as well as what you're describing with a strong front sub/midbass setup. The one key difference here would be that I'm going active and with time alignment using the BitOne. I'm not sure if you went passive or active with your Dyns.

Similar to your Dyn setup the listener should never know if the sub is on or off. 1. Because the sub bass is so clean they can't tell it's even there. 2. Because the mid bass is effective enough to pull all of the staging and and presence cues forward to the front of the car.

Tony407
12-30-09, 12:00 PM
Thanks Tony!

I'm basically going for a very similar setup to your 360 system as well as what you're describing with a strong front sub/midbass setup. The one key difference here would be that I'm going active and with time alignment using the BitOne. I'm not sure if you went passive or active with your Dyns.

Similar to your Dyn setup the listener should never know if the sub is on or off. 1. Because the sub bass is so clean they can't tell it's even there. 2. Because the mid bass is effective enough to pull all of the staging and and presence cues forward to the front of the car.

I'm totally active with old school Phoenix Gold amps.

I've tried time alignment over and over again and no matter how much I fiddle around with it I just don't seem to care for it.

I have a Clarion DRZ-9255 head unit that I absolutely love. I can control every aspect of the front soundstage (included that dreaded TA) right from my seat.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
12-30-09, 12:42 PM
The Clarion is a really nice piece!

You're not using the Clarion in the V are you?

Tony407
12-30-09, 03:37 PM
The Clarion is a really nice piece!

You're not using the Clarion in the V are you?

No. I'm not ready for the headache for such an install.

Tony

thebigjimsho
12-30-09, 09:01 PM
Interesting. I have a DRZ-9255 that I bought for my SHO and never installed...between that and my a/d/s/ speakers, I don't know what to do with them...

NeedCTS-v
12-31-09, 01:47 AM
Interesting. I have a DRZ-9255 that I bought for my SHO and never installed...between that and my a/d/s/ speakers, I don't know what to do with them...

The 9255 is an excellent piece of equipment. It is legendary for it's sound quality and tuning capabilities. Depending on condition, it's probably worth somewhere between $550-750 today. It's also a HU that buyers will move on quickly. If your plan is to run a 3 way system it is a very good choice. It would not work as well in the V because of the level of system integration required (NAV, blue tooth, on star etc.). If I had the option of running a separate HU in my car, the 9255 would be on my shortlist.

A/D/S is also a legendary company who unfortunately go purchased to DEI and more recently the A/D/S name sold to a Chinese company who will slap the logo into anything it feels. It's quite sad really. As for what to do with them, I'd say they're worth more installed and enjoyed than turned over. They just don't hold value like they used to.

Tony407
12-31-09, 02:03 AM
Interesting. I have a DRZ-9255 that I bought for my SHO and never installed...between that and my a/d/s/ speakers, I don't know what to do with them...

I'd hang on to the DRZ...it's a classic. If and when Clarion discontinues it (like they did with its predecessor the DRX) it will be worth quite a bit.

What a/d/s speakers do you have? I've been throwing around the idea of getting some speakers for my pickup but haven't made a decision yet. I might be interested in acquiring them from you depending on which ones you have. a/d/s quality seems dependent on when they were made if I remember correctly.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
12-31-09, 02:25 AM
The new A/D/S :crying2:

http://www.adst.cc/english/

:banghead::banghead::banghead:



FAIL!!! http://www.adst.cc/english/product/?id=110


http://www.adst.cc/english/uploads/product/2008-10/20081009224343.jpg

thebigjimsho
01-01-10, 02:51 AM
I'd hang on to the DRZ...it's a classic. If and when Clarion discontinues it (like they did with its predecessor the DRX) it will be worth quite a bit.

What a/d/s speakers do you have? I've been throwing around the idea of getting some speakers for my pickup but haven't made a decision yet. I might be interested in acquiring them from you depending on which ones you have. a/d/s quality seems dependent on when they were made if I remember correctly.

Tony
I have 2 sets of speakers. A set of 325is from around '97, or so and a set of AL5s from the same timeframe.

My Accord coupe had an all a/d/s/ system w/ 336is.2 up front, AL6s in back w/ 2 310rs subs run by 2 4100 amps. Had always been a Clarion and a/d/s/ fan. I also have some vintage Lanzar stuff. Purple heat sinks and all.

NeedCTS-v
01-19-10, 09:42 PM
Sorry for the wait...

It's taken a few weeks for my amps to be built, but perfection takes time :thumbsup:

I also wanted to take a moment to extend a big thank you to Don Amann of Unexpected Creations who has because a friend since this whole idea started. He really knows his stuff and has taken extraordinary care of me on my purchases. If you happen to need any high end audio, I cannot recommend him enough. Tell him Gabriel sent you.

Here are the details:
(1) TRU Technology Super Billet 8, with custom black anodized billet chassis, stage III upgraded capacitors, custom op amps, etc. rated power 8x100 @4ohms doubling power at 2 ohms, bridged 300x4 @4ohms. Dimensions: 31.5 in. x 10.25 in. x 2.25 in.

(1) TRU Technology Billet 2200, with custom black anodized billet chassis, stage III upgraded capacitors, custom op amps, etc. rated power 2x200 @4ohms doubling power at 2 ohms, bridged 600 x1 @4ohms. Dimensions: 17.75" x 10.25" x 2.25"

(1) TRU Technology Billet 4100, with custom black anodized billet chassis, stage III upgraded capacitors, custom op amps, etc. rated power 4x100 @4ohms doubling power at 2 ohms, bridged 300 x2 @4ohms. Dimensions: 17.75" x 10.25" x 2.25"

Yes. That is a rifle case that the large amplifier gets shipped in :)

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0113.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0115.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0120.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0119.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0118.jpg&newest

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/DSC_0117.jpg

Tony407
01-20-10, 02:24 AM
YUM!!!!! :cloud9: :drool:

Tony

deadlyaztec
01-20-10, 12:56 PM
^
Hey, im from austin too!. I am wondering if you can let me know what distributes did you used for the esotar2?

Thanks.

NeedCTS-v
01-20-10, 03:35 PM
^
Hey, im from austin too!. I am wondering if you can let me know what distributes did you used for the esotar2?

Thanks.

Don Amann of Unexpected Creations. He also reps Rainbow & Sinfoni (also very nice stuff).

Tell him Gabriel referred you.

perfect
01-21-10, 05:27 PM
Wow, those Tru Techs are some seriously nice gear!! You don't see those too much anymore

I have a Tru Technology H-1 in my V1 powering a pair of IDMAX's and I used to have a pair of Tru Tech SH-1 (Sledgehammers) powering some 18" subs in a truck a looong time ago

Cool system, please post more pics!!!

NeedCTS-v
01-22-10, 12:35 AM
Wow, those Tru Techs are some seriously nice gear!! You don't see those too much anymore

I have a Tru Technology H-1 in my V1 powering a pair of IDMAX's and I used to have a pair of Tru Tech SH-1 (Sledgehammers) powering some 18" subs in a truck a looong time ago

Cool system, please post more pics!!!

Thanks for the compliment. I'm pretty happy with TRU (I'll let you know how it sounds).

I will be posting an install log for this forum but will warn that this would be a multi-month log project (although I'd prefer to keep it to a month).

NeedCTS-v
02-04-10, 04:39 PM
So, it's officially on...

The car was dropped off Tuesday evening and will in all liklihood be gone for about a month. The after much consideration, installation will be taking place at AudioFX in Georgetown TX which is about 30 minutes from both my office and residence.

I had considered working with a guy named Chris Pate in College Station who is considered one of the best installers/competitors in the country and well as a guy in Atlanta name Calvin Thomas of very similar pedegree. At the end of the day I decided to go with a local shop, because this is a hobby for me and something that I want to be involved with. With the above listed options, the results would have been very good, but I would have been too removed from the project. My hope is to have as much fun with this as I can and learn from my mistakes.

Two weeks ago I brought the car to AudioFX and we took the interior apart and spent a full day with the drivers wired up to a couple of amps and played around with speaker placement to get a better sense of the car's acoustics. I'm happy to report that even using simple cardboard baffle mock-ups, the sound was excellent.

Moving forward, we will tackle the car starting from the trunk and moving forward. Using this approach, we can get everything wired up, amps installed, processing online, etc. Then we will move to the cabin of the car which will get fully dynamated and wires run. After that, we do final placement analysis for the front stage. The plan is still to run the Dynaudio 9s in the doors but we may learn of a few more options once the carpet has been removed.

We will be photographing our progress and I will start a build thread once things are under way.

thebigjimsho
02-04-10, 07:09 PM
Hey Gabriel, would you be able to tell us what the Bose driver specs are size-wise and what we can do with speakers without modifications? I'd like to use Morel or Dynaudio speakers and I do have an ID 10" that I was going to use free air in the V1. I'd love to save dough and use that in the V2.

I think I'm going to try using the Dyns or Morels as midbasses and a tweet without doing a 3-way system.

That's if I ever get started at all... :hide:

NeedCTS-v
02-04-10, 08:07 PM
Jim,

You should be fine with your 10 running IB but it really comes down to what you mean by "no modifications". For my install I've set a goal of no metal cutting and an absolute minimum of carpet cutting. If I do trim carpet at all, it would be at the dead pedal location for the kicks but even still I'm trying to avoid it.

If you ran your 10 IB at the factory deck location, you would basically need to fabricate an adaptor plate which fires the 10 through an approximate 8.5" hole where the factory driver is located. Unless you're trying to thump, this ineficiency shouldn't be a problem. Note: With this configuration you will have rattles on the rear deck. Significant effort to deaden that area as well as decouple the subwoofer itself from the rear deck will be required to minimize vibrations and ultimately audible localization of the sub (6" thick layer of wale blubber would work nicely :D)

The alternative to this would be to IB into the rear seat and simply seal off the rear deck entirely. This was an option for me and would have been the way to go had I opted to use two subs. I didn't to reduce weight and retain trunk space. In any event, firing into the rear seat will be far less efficent than firing through the rear deck, but less rattle prone. Choose your compromise.

With the front midbass location I'm using the Dyn MW182 which is effectively a 9.4" subwoofer without cutting any door medal or modifcation to the interior door card. The 182 is unique in that it doesn't have the big claw type cast basket that the smaller (8") MW172 has. The MW 172 would actually require opening of the door medal as well as potential clearance problems due to its deeper mounting depth. The 182 is a very good fit for oem swap out. You mentioned using the Morel (which is very good) but given fitment considerations, I suspect that the Dyn is a better choice. You could go with something like the Esotar 650 (6.5") as well but it will not reach as low as the larger drivers and would make you more reliant on your sub for the lowest frequencies. As with the rear sub, a healthy dosage of dynamat for deadening of the doors will be essential to get the most out of these drivers. One last note on the doors... The factory grill is only partially open. I'm seriously considering completely venting the grill to ensure that I don't have sound blowing back at the driver or creating cancellations.

The stock dash locations are using a 1-2" mid/tweeter combination. They appear to be identical drivers but they are classified as tweets for the corners and a mid in the center. I suspect that they are identical but may be crossed over differently but it's bose so it's anyone's guess. The drivers themselves have a 3.5-4" square basket and are easily removed. The corner dash speakers are cambered at an angle into the cabin and are not reflecting directly into the glass. There doesn't seem to be any other trickery like waveguides or other dispersion management going on. I will be able to provide pics in a few days. There is enough mounting depth behind the dash speakers to mount a mid or broad band driver like a Hybrid Legatia 3 or Dyn 430 up there but I would avoid any sort of "dome" type midrange (like the DLS or Dyn Esotec) that close to the glass. What this also means is that you should be able to fit a good size tweeter up there (Esotar or for 10X less a Hiquophon large format) with a minimum of modification. For my install, I may run the Esotar tweets in the kicks, and I picked up a par of small format Dyn Esotec MD102s for the factory corner locations as well as a used pair of Hybrid Legatia 3s for the center, in case I need to use them to help raise the percieved stage height.

I have not removed the rear door cards or rear deck speakers so I cannot say much about them. I'm assuming that a 6.5 mid of reasonable depth could fit in the rear doors. The rear deck speakers may be a different story because they are sealed and do no breath into the trunk. As such, they would need a driver optimized to operate in a small enclosed space.

I hope that this helps.


Hey Gabriel, would you be able to tell us what the Bose driver specs are size-wise and what we can do with speakers without modifications? I'd like to use Morel or Dynaudio speakers and I do have an ID 10" that I was going to use free air in the V1. I'd love to save dough and use that in the V2.

I think I'm going to try using the Dyns or Morels as midbasses and a tweet without doing a 3-way system.

That's if I ever get started at all... :hide:

thebigjimsho
02-05-10, 01:01 AM
Good stuff, man! The ID 10 that I have had a custom adapter plate for the V1. How this differs with the V2, I'm not sure. I don't need it to pound that hard so I'm not too worried about efficiency. But while I'm not going to cover the car in deadening, the rear deck will get thoroughly worked as will my doors...

NeedCTS-v
02-13-10, 05:42 PM
So, here's a couple of random pics with the interior stripped out.

1st step will be to dynamat the entire car with the one exception of the roof. The reason I'm not doing the roof is two fold. 1. What's the point?..it's glass anyway. 2. Given all of the squeaking I've had with my roof, I don't want to give my dealer any excuse not to warranty it.

After the dynamat is complete we will being to build the amplifier racks. Once that is done, we will run all of the wire throughout the car and install the amps and processor.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0121.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0128.jpg

Factory midbass
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0127.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0126.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0125.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0123.jpg

Factory Bose Amplifier
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0124.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0133.jpg

Factory rear door speaker location. Speaker is actually mounted to the door card itself, not metal.
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0137.jpg

Factory Center Channel Location being test fitted with a Hybrid Audio Legatia 3 driver.
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0135.jpg

Factory dash corner speaker (passenger side). This driver is dentical for L/R & Center locations.
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0134.jpg

Passenger side kick panel area
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0132.jpg

Driver side kick panel area
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0129.jpg

Tony407
02-13-10, 06:21 PM
It's funny...while I envy you for the awesome outcome you'll eventually have, just looking at the pictures gives me memories of tearing apart other cars I've had, and then my knees and back start hurting... LOL

Thanks for the pics. Great job.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
02-13-10, 06:59 PM
It's funny...while I envy you for the awesome outcome you'll eventually have, just looking at the pictures gives me memories of tearing apart other cars I've had, and then my knees and back start hurting... LOL

Thanks for the pics. Great job.

Tony

Thanks for the compliment and I know what you mean, it's kind of sickening to think about.

Hopefully the tear down part will not last very long. The entire thing is being designed to be returned to stock very easily. It's just while we get the dynamat in things will be painful to look at.

One interesting thing that I learned about our cars is that the carpet kit is actually 4 separate pieces as opposed to a single carpet. I contacted my dealer regarding the cost and I was quoted approximately $190 for each of the front sections. This may prove in the long run an acceptable replacement cost and will ultimately allow trimming of the kick panel and dead pedal areas to allow optimum driver placement.

For those reading along but not familiar with kick panel installations, there are a number psycho-acoustic tricks that can be played with less standard speaker locations. The human brain and ear is design to detect and interpret certain types of information within the audible spectrum in different ways. Within the realm of mid range and mid bass, the ear is not capable of detecting height cues but can detect things like depth and width. The objective here is to mount these drivers as far away and wide from the listener as possible. This also minimizes path length differences which can also be directly translated into the alignment of time arrivals, system phase and ultimately staging.

This is not as a big deal for a sound system that has been optimized for a single seat, but if the objective is to have both seats sound good at the same time, aligning your drivers through mechanical means as opposed to electrical (DSP and time alignment) is critical. Similarly, it is easier to EQ and correct the flaws of having a low mounted driver than it is to EQ and correct peaks and reflections coming off of glass. This is a major consideration in our cars due to the massive ultra-roof. I guess what I'm saying is that more time will be spent aiming the drivers away from glass than it will be spent aiming them at the listener. I can EQ for drivers that are off axis to me, I cannot EQ for drivers that are on axis to glass.

I will continue to post pics and findings as things progress.

richeic77
02-14-10, 09:43 AM
Very cool. I'm glad you are tacking the 1st big install. Gives me a ton of ideas for when I decide to do something other than stock.

I might try and stop in to see the progress on my next trip up to the DFW area. You're going at it the right way. Should sound killer when done.

CTSV_Jim
02-14-10, 11:25 AM
Wow. This is really awesome to watch take place. I spent several years of my life as an installer and I really appreciate the level of prep you are putting into this. I live in the Austin area (Cedar Park) and would love to check out the process in person. PM me if that's OK.

-Jim

NeedCTS-v
02-14-10, 01:51 PM
Very cool. I'm glad you are tacking the 1st big install. Gives me a ton of ideas for when I decide to do something other than stock.

I might try and stop in to see the progress on my next trip up to the DFW area. You're going at it the right way. Should sound killer when done.



Wow. This is really awesome to watch take place. I spent several years of my life as an installer and I really appreciate the level of prep you are putting into this. I live in the Austin area (Cedar Park) and would love to check out the process in person. PM me if that's OK.

-Jim

You guys are welcome to check it out any time. The start to the install is going to be a bit slow (or has been) due to the level of planning and discovery taking place. Once we get the trunk and amps wired up and mid bass installed into the doors, we will begin the very tricky and probably most important aspect of the install "placing and aiming the mids and tweets". This will likely be the best time for you guys to check things out as well as make a significant contribution to the car.

Hearing is very subjective and everyone hears things differently. Things like seating position relative to the speakers as well as all of the various surfaces in the car will have a dramatic effect on the perception of sound. Most competition cars choose a seating position that is ideal for listening but may in fact not be good for driving. Many comp cars actually extend the seat rails back and go for the farthest and lowest seating because this allows for shorter overall path length differences as well as the fact that your vision has an impact on what you hear as well. Keep in mind that the sense of acoustical staging is not actual staging, but a psychological distortion between between your sense of hearing and vision.

I'm not building a competition car, I'm building a driver's car. I have to build the system for my driving position and do my best to identify the optimum compromise between the driving position and listening position. What this also means is that if someone were to sit in my seat, they may not be able to drive the car and they may not be able to hear exactly what I'm hearing. The more people I get to listen to the car during this stage, the better the car will be overall. It's kind of like getting a suit tailored for several people at once. Fortunately, I'm 6'4" and have my seat all the way back for driving. The biggest variable will be seating height.

In a week or two I will ping you guys when it looks like there will be something worth seeing.

I should probably use this as opportunity to throw out a few warnings and disclaimers:

1. This is not a show car. Show cars cost a lot of money and usually weigh a lot. I decided to invest my money in better equipment knowing that I could keep it provided that I didn't destroy the car in the process. What this means is that any money I spend on labor and installation will only retain value for as long as I have this car. Once the car is gone, the investment is lost. The aesthetic goal is clean, simple and professional. You won't see elaborate fiberglass tubs, neon lighting or dancing midgets in this car.

2. This system is being built with compromises. It will sound good but there will be fundamental limitations that cannot be avoided as a result of maintaining the integrity of the car itself.
For example, staging will always be somewhat compromised due to the fact that my midbass drivers are being mounted in the doors and not the kick panels. There are critical frequencies between 60hz and 200hz that the 4" drivers in the kicks will not be able to reproduce which means these frequencies will come from the doors and will in fact be localize-able to the doors. I may be able to minimize this with tuning, but the problem will always be there. The alternative would have been to use a smaller mid-bass driver in the kick panel and vent that driver into the frame of the car. This would have required more fabrication than I'm prepared to do at this time. If it were a competition vehicle, I'd have pulled the fenders off and glassed enclosures around wheel well/fenders.

3. I am not a professional, I'm a hobbyist. You'll be able to learn just as much about what not to do in this thread as you will what to do. I know just enough to be a danger to myself and those around me. :)

Tony407
02-14-10, 04:12 PM
First of all, you totally lost all my respect when you decided not to have dancing midgets. What were you thinking???

I am glad to hear that I am not the only one that tunes their cars specifically for the driver's seat. If I were to sit in the passenger seat the entire sound stage collapses into the front passenger door area. Poor passengers... LOL

In my personal opinion and limited experience, I have found that my midbasses (doors) and midranges (kicks) sound much better when I use an over-so-slightly overlapping (or not) crossover of around 600 Hz. What advantage do you see using something as low as 200? Just personal preference? Next time I drive my Mustang I'll change it over to 200 Hz and see how I like it.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
02-14-10, 04:54 PM
First of all, you totally lost all my respect when you decided not to have dancing midgets. What were you thinking???

Well, if I have any money left over....


I am glad to hear that I am not the only one that tunes their cars specifically for the driver's seat. If I were to sit in the passenger seat the entire sound stage collapses into the front passenger door area. Poor passengers... LOL

Actually, this is a point that I should probably clarify. I am actually trying to do everything I can to establish two seat listening, that's why much of the effort is being put into the physical installation locations. An easier path would be to completely optimize through EQ and time delay for a single seat. At that point, looking at options like mounting the mids and tweeters in the A pillars become more viable, but do create a visual detractor as well as become a one seat experience due to the path length differences between the two seats. DSP can correct these difference for one seat but not both.


In my personal opinion and limited experience, I have found that my midbasses (doors) and midranges (kicks) sound much better when I use an over-so-slightly overlapping (or not) crossover of around 600 Hz. What advantage do you see using something as low as 200? Just personal preference? Next time I drive my Mustang I'll change it over to 200 Hz and see how I like it. Tony

This is probably true and what I wrote could have been mis-leading. When I was referring to midbass frequencies specifically and to a lesser degree the drivers that are responsible for reproducing those frequencies. I was speaking specifically to the ear/brain's ability to localize those frequencies. Edit: As long as your kicks are playing the majority of the octaves that represent mid-bass frequencies (let's call it 80-320hz) you'll be in good shape.

As opposed to me making a mess of something I only have limited understanding of, I'm going to copy some text from a thread from another forum written by someone far brighter than I will likely ever be. The bottom line is that our only way to interpret frequencies within the mid range frequencies is through Interaural "Time" Differences (ITDs) and not Interaural Intensity Diferences (IIDs). What this means is that because your mid bass is "also" playing these frequencies, your ears will be able to localize those specific frequencies as being at different path lengths to you.


Quote
HOW HUMANS LOCALIZE SOUND SOURCES

1. Lateral plane

Humans have two ears that are displaced laterally. Those two ears can be used to localize sources laterally, by "measuring" and "comparing" the sound that arrives at each ear. The brain does this automatically, through learned behavior. What characteristics does a sound signal have, that might be different at each ear? There are two : intensity (or level) and time. So we can speak of a difference in acoustic INTENSITY (or level) between the two ears, and we can speak of an acoustic arrival TIME difference between the ears.

a. Lateral plane, low frequencies

Let's assume that the sound source is significantly father from our head than the distance between our ears. Let's define "low frequencies" as frequencies with wavelengths substantially longer than the width of our head (which happens to coincide nicely with the distance between our ears). In this case, the intensity difference between our ears will be very small, for any source in the lateral plane. Our head will not "shadow" these long wavelengths, nor will the head cause any significant diffraction. So the brain can't use inter-aural intensity difference to locate these long wavelengths

Instead, the brain has learned to measure and use inter-aural TIME differences for these long wavelengths. The "arrival time" differences can be thought of as a time difference in the pressure peaks that arrive at each ear.

This frequency range is what we are calling MIDBASS. And here, localization is purely a function of inter-aural time difference, or ITD ... nothing more, nothing less.

b. Lateral plane, higher frequencies

As frequencies increase, the wavelengths will shorten ... eventually approaching the distance between our ears (about 8 inches, which corresponds to about 1600 Hz). As soon as more than one wavelength can "fit" between our ears, the inter-aural time difference ... think of it as a time difference between pressure peaks ... becomes confusing and ambiguous. IF there's more than one pressure peak between our ears, which one should the brain measure? So ITD becomes useless as a localization cue, as frequencies increase.

Fortunately, at these same wavelengths ... on the order of our head dimension ... the head itself starts to play a role in shaping the amplitude or intensity (or level) difference between our ears. Head shadowing & diffraction start to become noticeable. So the ear/brain can start using inter-aural intensity (or level) differences, or IID, at frequencies higher than the wavelength corresponding to the distance between our ears.

So, in the upper midrange, we see IID as the dominant localization.

At even higher frequencies, into the treble, ANOTHER physical dimension becomes significant : our outer ears They shape the magnitude as well, contributing to IID.

This whole frequency region ... where IID rules ... is the realm of HRTF (or head related transfer functions). HRTF's shape the magnitude & phase of frequencies high enough to be impacted by head & ear dimensions.

But this frequency region doesn't concern us in this thread. Midbass is ALL about ITD

2. Vertical plane.

Our ears are on the SIDES of our head, remember? The fact that we have two of them, displaced laterally by about 8 inches, is insignificant and useless for vertical localization. So what allows us to localize vertically ... anything? Well, our heads are almost spheres, with holes in the sides ... so there's nothing about this shape that "looks different" as a source "moves" up vertically (for example). What does "look different", to a source up high versus down low, is the shape of our outer ears ... and they pretty much look the same. It's really only our outer ears that spoil the vertical symmetry of our hearing, which allows us to localize vertically. And given the size of our outer ears, it's only frequencies above about 3kHz that can be located vertically.

Bottom line : height cues are treble, and height cues are mono.

This is important as we dive a bit deeper into midbass ITD. Our next goal is to define those points in space that generate the same ITD for a source at any of those points. In other words, we need to define a geometric shape or curve with the following characteristic : the location of a source at ANY point on this curve will be indistinguishable from any OTHER point on this curve.

CTSV_Jim
02-15-10, 10:33 AM
I'm with Tony...no dancing midgets or fiberglass tubs - FORGET IT. Next you're gonna tell me that you won't be painting the outside neon green or adding 26" wheels...what a joke!

At any rate, let me know when to stop by, I am happy to help.

-Jim

CTSV_Jim
02-20-10, 10:00 AM
NeedCTS-V,

I got your PM, but I can't PM to you yet. I will try to make it down there this afternoon...I am excited.

-Jim

NeedCTS-v
02-20-10, 10:38 AM
NeedCTS-V,

I got your PM, but I can't PM to you yet. I will try to make it down there this afternoon...I am excited.

-Jim

Cool man!

Looking forward to meeting you.

-Gabriel

CTSV_Jim
02-20-10, 04:54 PM
Gabriel,

Sorry I couldn't make it today, but I'll get a hold of you later. I really want to see and hear this thing.

-Jim

NeedCTS-v
02-21-10, 11:59 AM
Gabriel,

Sorry I couldn't make it today, but I'll get a hold of you later. I really want to see and hear this thing.

-Jim

No worries man. It's not like there won't be plenty of opportunity to listen.

As a mini update, we did get the big amp mounted, the BitOne integrated to the factory system (works like a charm btw) and basic sound in the car yesterday. The goal was to start some placement evaluations for the mids/tweets before doing anything permanent.

I have to say, I am really blown away by the Esotar tweeters. It didn't matter where we put them, they sounded great, staging was high and dead center, it didn't matter if they were on the floor, being blocked by my legs, nothing. They're awesome!. I could probably put them in a nearby car and get good staging :D

The other cool thing is that as of now, the "only" modification done to the vehicle beyond the dynamat was drilling of 4 small holes for bolt mounts and a new ground. In all other cases, we're using all of the factory bolt locations.

Also, my Lloyd mats arrived on Friday and will go very nicely with the rest of the car. If you've been on the fence about these, they are a very nice product.

thebigjimsho
02-21-10, 05:28 PM
jealousy...

NeedCTS-v
03-01-10, 09:40 PM
Here's a couple update pics...

MW182s 9.4" subs in the doors. No cutting required!
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00045.jpg

Esotar 430s and 110s in the kicks. Minor trimming of carpet and no metal cutting, dead pedal retained! The 430 mids breath out into the frame of the car. We will probably put additional expanding foam back there to keep the enclosure space to a minimum. If these play IB they will suffer from limited power handling and possible over excursion. By the way, you can't tell these speakers are in the kicks at all. Staging is high and wide.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00062.jpg

Passenger side kick panel. Mirror image to the driver's side.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00061.jpg

Here's a pic of the unfinished trunk. Carpet is being changed to black throughout. Lloyds ultramat with V logo is going in on top of that. The sub has now been mounted as well as the amplifiers. The amps are covered in blue tape to protect them. We will like finish the amp covers (giving a countersunk look) in vinyl, suede and fake hydro-carbon fiber to maintain the aesthetic of the car and interior console/dash area.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00099.jpg

Tony407
03-01-10, 10:47 PM
That certainly doesn't suck!

Awesome work so far. I can't believe you get that much imaging out of the drivers where they're at. More specifically than location though is the fact that they're firing directly at one another and not even remotely aimed towards the listener. Outstanding.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
03-02-10, 12:00 AM
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0079.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0080.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V%20Images/DSC_0085.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DCP01017.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DCP01021.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DCP01019.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00008.jpg

NeedCTS-v
03-02-10, 12:01 AM
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00006.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00026.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00027.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00030.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00031.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00032.jpg

NeedCTS-v
03-02-10, 12:02 AM
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00006.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00026.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00027.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00030.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00031.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00032.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00034.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00037.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00043.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSC00044.jpg

readyact
03-03-10, 06:18 PM
Wow!!!!

CTSV_Jim
03-03-10, 06:52 PM
Need,

We used to always create wood mounting rings for high end speaker installs in doors as they generally sound better compared to mounting directly to metal. Any thoughts on that, or are you expecting the Dynamat to work the same?

-Jim

thebigjimsho
03-03-10, 07:53 PM
So you just mounted the mids and esotars onto the board and then mounted that to the kick panel wall?

CTSV_Jim
03-03-10, 09:02 PM
Need,

We used to always create wood mounting rings for high end speaker installs in doors as they generally sound better compared to mounting directly to metal. Any thoughts on that, or are you expecting the Dynamat to work the same?

-Jim

Oh, never mind. I see that you removed the plastic ring for the stock speaker and replaced with (I think) a piece of wood.

NeedCTS-v
03-03-10, 09:27 PM
Yes, we used wood trim rings to get the proper spacing for clearances both between the interior of the door and between the door card.

As an aside, absolutely NO mdf was used in this car. Baltic birch was used exclusively for greater strength and weight considerations.

As for the kick panel location, we ended up going with this only because it yielded the best overall sound. This is not what I was expecting to end up with but after 3 days of experimenting with temp baffles and every placement configuration imaginable, this is what worked the best. Please note, I attribute much of our success to the quality of the drivers being used. The Esotar is an AMAZING driver. With only basic XO points and no additional tuning, you cannot tell that the speakers are not placed in the dash. Better still, this is a 2 seat car. With two people listening and pointing to location cues, we were both hearing the same basic information but ironically it was if we were sitting at appropriately different locations within the venue...Kind of a trip.

We are technically mounted flat to the kick, but actually venting the mid range driver into the frame of the car through factory holes (infinite baffle). The only problem that we ran into is that with these particular drivers they hit their excursion limits pretty quickly when playing IB. We will be adding some expanding foam into the frame cavity with of a target of about .24-.30 liters of air space. This will allow the drivers to work optimally.

If someone else wants to do this type of install, driver selection will be critical for similar results.

NeedCTS-v
03-03-10, 09:34 PM
One note on the dual batteries.

We're using a configurable PAC dual battery isolator. This allows us to revert to a single batter when the key is in the "ACC" position to ensure that both batteries are not being tapped by the sound system, and one is in reserve to start/operate the car. When the car is "on" both batteries will be under charge and both will feed to sound system.

Tony407
03-03-10, 11:09 PM
Regarding the fantastic job you're doing of posting pics and info as you go, I would be most interested in hearing about the factory integration aspect. I feel fairly comfortable tearing the car down, installing drivers, etc. It's the specifics behind the OEM interface with your Audison unit that I would be vastly interested in learning more about. This particular subject is what has kept me from diving any deeper than merely adding a sub.

Tony

NeedCTS-v
03-04-10, 03:43 AM
Regarding the fantastic job you're doing of posting pics and info as you go, I would be most interested in hearing about the factory integration aspect. I feel fairly comfortable tearing the car down, installing drivers, etc. It's the specifics behind the OEM interface with your Audison unit that I would be vastly interested in learning more about. This particular subject is what has kept me from diving any deeper than merely adding a sub.

Tony

Tony,

Honestly, the Audison/OEM interface is probably the easiest aspect of the system that I've had to deal with.

Basically the Audison has RCA analog inputs to accept signal from any aftermarket head unit, two types of digital inputs (toslink and digital coax) and lastly 8 high level speaker wire type inputs designed specifically to deal with OEM applications.

The long and short of it is that if you run the speaker out from the bose into the Audison and know in advanced which wires go to what speakers (oem), during the Audison setup, it will ask you to identify which wires go where (front L high, front R high, front L mid, front R mid, center high, center full, etc.). After you do that it asks you to turn your radio up to just under "clipping" level which is hard determine without speakers, but I turned mine up to "full -2" (keep in mind that the Bose is a class D amplifier and class D doesn't actually clip). The Audison analyzes the signal for about 30 seconds and then asks if you want to de-equalize the signal. That takes about 45 seconds.

After that,you go through a number of system configuration choices to help the Audison to determine what type of system and speaker types it's going to be managing (3 way with sub, 2 way, etc..whatever you want up to 8 channels which can be configured anyway way you want, sub, center, stereo, summed mono, endless).

During the setup, the BitOne basically compares all of the inbound OEM signals and then reconstructs a "full range" two channel signal devoid of the OEM equalization, XOvers, and delays.

That's it... you're done. You now have a PC based control over the Audison which gives you full XO control up to 48db slopes, full time delay up to 20ms for all 8 output channels, full gain control for all 8 output channels and all 8 input channles, 30 bands of equalization for all output and input channels. This thing is crazy flexible.

The Audison also has a wired remote control which gives you basic control over basic audio functions, a master volume (but you can use the factory volume with the B1), a master on/off for the entire system and a selector for 4 different user presets.

Hopefully this helps.

-Gabriel

NeedCTS-v
03-07-10, 06:52 PM
Here's a couple of "quick & dirty" trunk pics. I'll try to take some better ones in a day or two.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0001.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0002.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0006.jpg

Tony407
03-07-10, 07:22 PM
Looks incredible. Not too flashy. Not too stealthy. Just right. The materials you used to finish the trunk looks completely stock (well, better than stock actually), as if the car came from the factory with all that stuff. Nice.

I still can't imagine you need a sub in the trunk with those huge midbass drivers in the doors. Regardless, I'm sure it's going to sound phenomenal.

Why do you have 2 Bit Ones?

Tony

thebigjimsho
03-07-10, 10:18 PM
Looks pretty incredible...

RemoWilliams
03-07-10, 10:56 PM
Looks great, wish I could hear it.

NeedCTS-v
03-08-10, 12:02 AM
Thanks for the compliments guys...I really appreciate it. This project is turning out better that I had imagined it would.

To be honest, the trunk isn't done yet. We're making billet trim pieces which will be covered in hydro-carbon fiber to go around the amplifiers as well as looking into replacing the carpet with suede matching the shifter and steering wheel. I may decide to keep the carpet for durability though.

Tony,

As for the extra BitOne, there is also an extra TRU Billet 4100 (amp on the left) in reserve. The B1 allows be to do a straight pass through of the Bose 5.1 discreet logic as well as the stereo reconstruction. The plan for extra processing and amplification are for future experiments with 5.1 as well as "hafler" type rear fill effects and so on. The car has been completely pre-wired to all existing speaker locations to allow me to play around a little without having to tear the trunk apart.

In the short term I have a TON of tuning to do with what I already have, but future projects will happen.

NeedCTS-v
03-16-10, 12:15 PM
Here's a couple of quik pics of the finished kick panels.

Please ignore the temp carpeted piece over the dead pedal (checking to see if it will tame some tweeter refelctions (which it does).

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0013.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0014.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0015.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0016.jpg

Also, we covered the underside dash panel in carpet as part of an attempt to seal the underside of the dash from the top (stop any sound leaks) as well as minimize reflections. Sorry for the crappy pics.

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0017.jpg

http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/se7en_251/CTS-V_2/DSCN0018.jpg