: You will never say anything bad about cadillac again



Harry
12-11-09, 03:34 PM
Go type in BMW 750 problems, you will see what a great car Cadillac is, one guy $40,000 in repaires in a 1000,000 miles another $20,000. I love my DTS

Freakzilla
12-11-09, 09:53 PM
That's because they're making BMWs in the USA now. ;)

codewize
12-11-09, 11:04 PM
BMW = Break My Wallet

donwon
12-12-09, 03:04 AM
BMW- Bubba Makes Wheels.
The S.C. plant is about 40 miles from me.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-12-09, 03:33 AM
Bohemian Manure Wagon

CadillacCastle
12-12-09, 08:15 AM
Go type in BMW 750 problems, you will see what a great car Cadillac is, one guy $40,000 in repaires in a 1000,000 miles another $20,000. I love my DTS............ I just hope my Cadillac will make it to 1000,000 miles. I didn't think the odometer went that high. That's probably not bad for that many miles.

Caddyshack100
12-12-09, 08:41 AM
BMW = Big Money Wasted

Destroyer
12-12-09, 09:02 AM
Go type in BMW 750 problems, you will see what a great car Cadillac is, one guy $40,000 in repaires in a 1000,000 miles another $20,000. I love my DTSHmm, by this logic my beater Dodge B1500 van is better than a Cadillac since repairs are infrequent and cheap. Go Dodge work van!!!!:histeric::histeric:

CadillacCastle
12-12-09, 09:09 AM
That's because they're making BMWs in the USA now. ;)

Are the BMWs made here or are they just assembled here?

donwon
12-12-09, 11:01 AM
Are the BMWs made here or are they just assembled here?
Some of the bodies are flown in. Some are formed here. I think most of the plastic trim is made here and I think the glass is made here.
The tires are made here and the chatletic converters are made hear. Most around the area of Greenville and Spartenburg S.C.
The assembly plant is located next to the GSP International Airport, so it is easy to have a lot of the componants flown in.
Also I think the motors and drive train are flown in.
It was a big boom to the economy when they opened the plant.
Also Catipiller has a Diesil Engine plant in our area but I think it is gonna move up north in the near future.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-12-09, 11:35 AM
Germans can make a damn fine car, but damnit it's expensive to own them. Even the VW's (people's car my ass) can be exorbitantly expensive to own.

codewize
12-12-09, 11:35 AM
I hope that's a typo. I think it was supposed to be 100k


............ I just hope my Cadillac will make it to 1000,000 miles. I didn't think the odometer went that high. That's probably not bad for that many miles.

Harry
12-12-09, 04:08 PM
That's a hundred thousand miles, sorry

orconn
12-12-09, 06:17 PM
From the experience of friends and neighbors who have had BMW & series cars these kinds of maintenance cost are more the norm than the acception. Mercedes-Benz "S" class same kind of outrageous cost of ownership. While these cars are very well built and display superior fit and finish, I have always believed that the Germans believe that Americans are suckers for their over priced products.

The fact the they are now built in the U.S. has nothing to do with the cars expensive need for maintenance. Rather it has to do with the myth of "German Engineering" which many Americans love to believe is true. Anyone who has owned a German car will tell you that things break and go bad that nver should have given trouble. This is the result of porly engineered, manufactured and chosen components. Who exactly is responsible for these defects .... not the Americans who assemble them, nor the Americans who drive them (and put up with the snotty dealership service personel who try to make you feel that it is some how your fault their German car broke.

To those who will tell you that this is a new phenomenon, "that German cars used to live up to their reputation." I have had experience with German cars going back to the 1950's when my parents had a Mercedes 300D sedan (equivalent to an upper level "S" class today) and several of my friends parents had 220S sedans. Same experience as today, relative to better American luxury cars, these cars had electrical problems, component failures and were extremely expensive to maintain. The same thing carried on through the sixties and seventies.

I have always maintained that if one spent as much to maintain a Cadillac it too would run to a 1,000,000 miles and probably still do it cheaper and more reliably. So while BMW's are great fun to drive (at least the 3 series is) and Mercedes garner you respect at the local country club ..... don't tell me about superior German engineering and the autobahn breeding of their cars. In the the real world of U.S. driving they just don't perform as well as our own luxury cars. If it weren't for the prestige factor Mercedes would have been known for what it really is, an overpriced, inferiorly engineered car that cost an arm and a leg to maintain.

gary88
12-12-09, 06:29 PM
Brings Me Women ;)

dkozloski
12-12-09, 06:30 PM
If you want a vehicle that will easily go 1,000,000 miles buy a Kenworth truck.

orconn
12-12-09, 06:51 PM
Brings Me Women ;)

Can't argue that point! But then so does a thousand dollar bill pinned to your shirt pocket!

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-12-09, 08:20 PM
Brings Me Women ;)

You have a tiny back seat. :D

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 08:57 PM
LOL! Some of the replies are pretty funny...

I guess it depends on which BMW you are talking about. Parts for mine are around the same as I've paid for nearly all my cars - then again it's pretty much a null point when you maintain them yourself and the thing is darn easy to work on. It's nice not knowing if the fastener you are trying to remove is metric or SAE - oh, what is really fun is not having to worry if it changes between both - on the same part you are removing. If you want to talk about things breaking and going bad that should never - then my '96 Lincoln Town Car would take the cake on that one! Entire front end - balljoints, tierod ends, all bushings etc... flat out shot before 100k. Cheap plastic used that would break in alot of things from the rear door ash tray lids to the blend door actuator to the intake manifold. Speaking of which, if you want to talk quality when built, look under both cars and it was quite easy to tell which car was built to higher quality control. The welds on the BMW are very uniform and overall smooth, nearly every weld on the Lincoln looked as if it was training day for someone that never used a welder before. Yey for German engineering :)

The Lincoln was a fine car for what it was made for tho. All brands have good and bad cars, I just found this thread to be humorous, much in the same way someone will buy a Northstar Cadillac and say the exact same things - or worse, against them when the head gasket goes - then write off owning another Cadillac, or GM alltogether.

2 BMW's - a second mortgage on the house? twice the girls? $80,000 in repairs over 100k miles? Eh, for me it's simply twice the fun :)

gdwriter
12-12-09, 09:00 PM
Brings Me Women ;):histeric: :histeric:

I like the looks of the previous-generation BMW 3-Series and might have been able to get one of similar age for what I paid for my Seville. And there are some other European cars that I like such as several Audis.

Mercedes-Benz has never done much for me. Very austere interiors for a luxury brand (although Chad's S-Class was more luxurious), and I don't care for the current models at all.

The current M-B steering wheels are some of the ugliest, cheap-ass things I've seen in years:

http://www.carpages.co.uk/mercedes_benz/mercedes_benz_images/mercedes_benz_c_class_interior_30_09_07.jpg

Compare that M-B C Class to the current CTS:

http://www.auto-broker-magic.com/images/2009-cadillac-cts-interior.jpg

Hell, that C Class interior looks less luxurious than an Accord or Malibu.

The bottom line for me is that German cars are more expensive to maintain. By the time I can afford cars like this, they're out of warranty and the complimentary maintenance period, so this is a big deal.

Cadillacs may be more expensive than, say, Chevrolets, but I'd wager parts and repairs are more expensive on a VW than on a Cadillac.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 09:25 PM
Parts and cost to maintain are only an issue if one is not able to work on their own car and must take it in for repairs everytime something is needed.

Then you are at the mercy of the markup on parts prices, and high labor rates - not a matter of which country the car is from.

My Jeep started making a squeeling noise, I did some basic troubleshooting, was surprised to find that when removing the serpentine belt, the noise was still there - a very loud, shreaking noise. I thought it was a bearing going bad in an idler pully (I replaced it along with belt when the waterpump failed at 58k miles) or alternator.

My Jeep has a 5yr/100k powertrain warranty from the dealer I bought it at - but I have to get oil changes done there, which is why I do not do them myself, however I perform all other maintenance on it. I brought it to the dealer for a diagnostic. $95 later and they tell me it is the crank/cam angle position sensor assembly, basically what took the place of the distrubutor since it is coil-pack ignition.

They said the total cost to repair would be $400, parts and labor. If I have them do that, they credit me the $95 diagnostic charge. They said on that $300 difference, $200 is parts and $100 is labor. I've looked online and can find the seperate cam and crank sensors, both are around $25, I called today to get a part number of what they are talking about but they said the papers were locked in the office and to call back Monday. I'm not sure if what I am seeing is what they are talking about.

It was painful to spend $100 to have someone tell me what is wrong with my Jeep, but since it has this basic warranty and under initial inspection could potentially be something internal in the engine, I figured I'd have them look at it. Oh, this is not covered under the warranty BTW. If it was any of my other vehicles, I would have simply continued to diagnose the problem. It would have just been a matter of time til I found it, as I was using a prybar when the engine was running to listen to various areas for the noise, and it was coming from the area they mentioned.

All I am saying is - cost of ownership will be a whole lot higher on any vehicle that one must pay to have repaired at a shop - especially a dealer, then when able to work on it themselves. $400 could buy a whole lotta parts for my German engineered cars.

V-Eight
12-12-09, 09:31 PM
Yeah, but remember that your German engineered cars are older models without many of today's electronic bullshit. The electronics are the most expensive to replace and difficult to diagnose. Much of this electronic stuff is not possible for a DYIer.

orconn
12-12-09, 09:39 PM
Many, if not most of us have are cars service by others. For those of us at the mercy of dealers or even independent repair shops German cars exact a high price for the thrill of owning one.

By the way I like the 3 series Bimmers you are ressurecting and agree they are great fun to drive! I also thoroughly enjoy Alfa Romeos and have felt their premium costs were worth the price. I don't feel the same way about the 7 series cars or even the 5 series... and certainly not Mercedes (if it will get out of its' own way you can afford it!).

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 09:58 PM
Cadillacs may be more expensive than, say, Chevrolets, but I'd wager parts and repairs are more expensive on a VW than on a Cadillac.

I dunno, for some reason, Cadillac parts can be insanely pricey as well. When I had my car being repaired at a body shop, they mentioned that the retail price on a factory catback exhaust was $1,000. For that price, I would've hoped that it would fool me into thinking it was a V8...or at least have tailpipes that didn't look like they were picked from an old Saturn parts bin. Good thing I didn't pay anything out of pocket for that. I also had a battery replaced under warranty that would have costed $250 if I had to eat it myself. Hell, even just one of those stupid little plastic center caps for the cheapie 16" factory wheels is $70 according to my local dealer. Stupid UAW.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 10:39 PM
Yeah, but remember that your German engineered cars are older models without many of today's electronic bullshit. The electronics are the most expensive to replace and difficult to diagnose. Much of this electronic stuff is not possible for a DYIer.

Yes, but the statement was, and continues to be made that "German cars/BMW are overly expensive to own"

But yes, to have one serviced at the dealer would have been a whole lot of money - heck even to have an independent shop perform work on my old e30's would be crazy expensive.

Then again, the same can be said about American cars - $1,500 to remove the dash to replace the blend door actuator (an $80 part) on my '96 Town Car.

It's interesting how, in general, new (at the time) cars are thought to be impossible to work on by the DIY'er, but as time passes, the cars get older then change hands and people start working on them - under all the fancy stuff, it's still just a car. I'm sure back in the 80's my BMW's were considered to be some of the more advanced cars on the road that could only be repaired at the dealer, and here I am doing all sorts of work on them with a basic tool set in my driveway. e36's and e46's are similar, not sure about the new ones. As for electronic stuff, between scanners and laptop programs, all of which are reasonable prices can be bought to help diagnose the problems. If talking about hard equipment failures with electronics - then that can happen to any car - and all cars today have a high level of electronic stuff in them.

Orconn - Thanks! Yeah, I became interested in the e30 about 2.5 yrs ago once I found out what they were, then just over a year ago bought my first one. I'm really happy with them, part of me wished I knew about them when I was first looking to get a car, but then the other part knows that I would have probably done alot of stupid things in it. Then again, when I was first looking for a car - I wanted a full blown American luxury car, so even if I got an e30, I wouldn't have apperciated it for what it is.

As for the 5 and 7 series, well I like the 80's and 90's models.... the new ones don't do a darn thing for me. Actually the only new BMW's that appeal to me are the 1-series (a good bit) and to a lesser degree the 3-series.

Maintaining these old things myself is a whole different world then taking a new 7-series to the dealer. Then again if I was forced to take my car to the dealer for all maintenace and had to pay high repair costs I would probably just say screw it and buy a brand new Kia Forte (had one as a rental - very nice) and be done with it. But, the same goes for any car - I'd hate to have to pay dealer cost to repair a newer Cadillac.

Then again... maybe I should say how difficult they are to work on - then open up my own shop?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW92/Bringing%20home/Ashleigh095.jpg

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-12-09, 11:07 PM
PB Blaster is my best friend.

gdwriter
12-12-09, 11:09 PM
Many, if not most of us have are cars service by others. For those of us at the mercy of dealers or even independent repair shops German cars exact a high price for the thrill of owning one.:yeah:


Parts and cost to maintain are only an issue if one is not able to work on their own car and must take it in for repairs everytime something is needed.

Then you are at the mercy of the markup on parts prices, and high labor rates - not a matter of which country the car is from.

All I am saying is - cost of ownership will be a whole lot higher on any vehicle that one must pay to have repaired at a shop - especially a dealer, then when able to work on it themselves. $400 could buy a whole lotta parts for my German engineered cars.And since you're a trained aircraft mechanic, working on your cars is probably simple by comparison. For most of us, however, it's a much more difficult proposition. Especially on today's cars, which are much more complex. For example, there are huge differences in complexity between my Impala, DeVille and Seville, as fitting for when they were built. I've done some repairs on Betty and Cruella myself, but when I open Sabrina's hood, I just shake my head and say "no."

I'm fortunate to have a trusted, ASE-certified, AAA-approved mechanic that I've been using for years, so I likely pay a lower rate than a dealer (although the service department at the Cadillac dealer when I took advantage of a cooling/air conditioning check special was also reasonable, and I would use them again). It also helps that one of the techs at my mechanic's shop owns a mid 90s DeVille Concours, so he knows Northstars.

If you have an iPhone, I recommend Repair Pal (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/repairpal-auto-repair-expert/id300996215?mt=8), a free app that estimates common repairs based on your location and what you drive. For example:

Water pump replacement:


2001 Cadillac Seville: $285-$386 ($127-$185 parts; $158-$201 labor)
2001 BMW 330i: $352-$458 ($114-$155 parts; $238-$303 labor)
2001 Mercedes E320: $480-$760 ($210-$416 parts; $270-$344 labor)
2001 Honda Accord V6: $456-$642 ($77-$158 parts; $379-$484 labor)
2001 Volkswagen Jetta V6: $350-$473 ($112-$170 parts; $238-$303 labor)

V-Eight
12-12-09, 11:37 PM
It's interesting how, in general, new (at the time) cars are thought to be impossible to work on by the DIY'er, but as time passes, the cars get older then change hands and people start working on them - under all the fancy stuff, it's still just a car.g[/IMG]

Yeah, its essentially just the flow technology. As time passes, the equipment required gets cheaper so that anyone can get it. Just look at cellphones, $500 and less that a year later you can get them for $99, this most likely applies to equipment too. The rate at which technology is moving now is just insane.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-12-09, 11:48 PM
Moore's Law. Computing power doubles approximately every 18 months and has for the past 40 years.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 11:55 PM
PB Blaster is my best friend.

It's a requirement when working on old cars :)

I understand that not everyone can work on their own cars - just like I said maintaining my old e30 myself is vastly different then taking a newer 7-series to the dealer for work.

At the same token, most people that own an older car are able to atleast perform basic maintenace on it - it's not like working on a car is that complex or only certain people can swing it. If one can do an oil change, replace disc brakes and swap out an alternator, then most other things short of in-depth engine overhauls are along the same concepts, but involve more steps. You can even buy books that tell you what to do, step by step and include pictures. With the internet and all the various car forums, it has made troubleshooting a breeze, as well as finding out the difficulity and what is involved in a certain project before it is started.

My response was simply in reply to the thread title and content. So some guy managed to get suckered out of $40k and another $20k over 100k miles.

What was the purpose of this thread? Don't buy a BMW? All car brands have problem cars? The average person can't afford to maintain a BMW? BMW's don't perform well in real-world conditions?

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 11:59 PM
Yeah, its essentially just the flow technology. As time passes, the equipment required gets cheaper so that anyone can get it. Just look at cellphones, $500 and less that a year later you can get them for $99, this most likely applies to equipment too. The rate at which technology is moving now is just insane.

When my father got his '99 Grand Prix GTP off a 3-year lease in '01, I remember looking under the hood of that car and thinking to myself "dang, so this is what a new car is like" and how could someone work on this thing themself?

But it's just a GM W-body, and no different to work on then any other car. Just as my '93 DeVille was new at one time and someone probably thought "how could I work on this sideways FWD V8", it wasn't that big of a deal. Give it another 10 years and your average home DIY mechanic will be able to work on the new BMW models.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-13-09, 12:04 AM
The labor costs on the Mercedes weren't too bad, but the parts costs were exorbitant. $800 for a blower motor, and it was $800 no matter where you bought it. $192 xenon headlamp bulbs, $790 mass airflow sensor, $1700 a/c compressor, etc etc. So even if I did the repairs myself, it's still insanely expensive to own. Now aside from the Xenons, those are parts any German car has.

Jesda
12-13-09, 12:27 AM
7-series = nightmare
3-series = awesomeness

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 12:28 AM
The labor costs on the Mercedes weren't too bad, but the parts costs were exorbitant. $800 for a blower motor, and it was $800 no matter where you bought it. $192 xenon headlamp bulbs, $790 mass airflow sensor, $1700 a/c compressor, etc etc. So even if I did the repairs myself, it's still insanely expensive to own. Now aside from the Xenons, those are parts any German car has.

That was already starting with one of the highest cost-to-own "regular" cars around. As was said at the time, the US didn't sell anything that competed with it, as it was in a whole different market segment.

Is this the same mass airflow meter? $150:

http://www.thebenzbin.com/parts/?N=11229+4294963395+1668&Ntt=mass%20air%20flow

Blower motor, still quite high at $625, but still a mass airflow meter cheaper then $800.

http://www.thebenzbin.com/parts/?N=11229+4294963395+1668&Ntt=blower%20motor

Xenon headlamp bulb for $70

http://www.thebenzbin.com/parts/?N=5593&Nr=OR(AND(make:Mercedes%20Benz,model:S320,year:199 9),AND(universal:1))&Vi=11229+4294963395+1668&y=1999&mk=Mercedes%20Benz&md=S320

I see A/C compressors for the S320 up to '95, they are about $550, then it stops listing them. They must have changed to something else.

I never delt with them before, just did a quick Google search for Mercedes parts. For the BMW, I usually deal with Pelican parts, Bav auto or Turner motorsport.

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 12:30 AM
7-series = nightmare
3-series = awesomeness

Where does that leave the 5-series? :)

It is quite interesting tho, there is such a divide in the BMW world with the 3-series and other models. Actually, oddly similar to the divide in the Jeep world between the Wrangler and the other models.

Jesda
12-13-09, 12:36 AM
I guess it depends on which 5-series and which engine. I adored my E34.

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 12:50 AM
It's too bad they never sold the e38 here in 735i trim.... I6 + manual trans in a 7-series would be so cool.

http://autopixx.de/bilder/SViHmgM3/bmw-735i-e38.jpg

ZDTq3Lab27A

The e34 is nice.... still the old school BMW.

codewize
12-13-09, 01:00 AM
This is the point I'm trying to make in that Honda thread.
:histeric: :histeric:

I like the looks of the previous-generation BMW 3-Series and might have been able to get one of similar age for what I paid for my Seville. And there are some other European cars that I like such as several Audis.

Mercedes-Benz has never done much for me. Very austere interiors for a luxury brand (although Chad's S-Class was more luxurious), and I don't care for the current models at all.

The current M-B steering wheels are some of the ugliest, cheap-ass things I've seen in years:

http://www.carpages.co.uk/mercedes_benz/mercedes_benz_images/mercedes_benz_c_class_interior_30_09_07.jpg

Compare that M-B C Class to the current CTS:

http://www.auto-broker-magic.com/images/2009-cadillac-cts-interior.jpg

Hell, that C Class interior looks less luxurious than an Accord or Malibu.

The bottom line for me is that German cars are more expensive to maintain. By the time I can afford cars like this, they're out of warranty and the complimentary maintenance period, so this is a big deal.

Cadillacs may be more expensive than, say, Chevrolets, but I'd wager parts and repairs are more expensive on a VW than on a Cadillac.

V-Eight
12-13-09, 01:50 AM
W. Give it another 10 years and your average home DIY mechanic will be able to work on the new BMW models.

That's exactly what I was saying lol

Aron9000
12-13-09, 02:19 AM
Blower motor, still quite high at $625, but still a mass airflow meter cheaper then $800.


Holy crap!!! I replaced the blower motor on my 1991 Brougham, bought the part at the NAPA parts store about two miles down the street. It was $19.97. It sits right next to the firewall and is held in with 5 bolts, took less than 30 minutes to replace:histeric::histeric::histeric:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-13-09, 02:26 AM
Four hours of labor to replace the blower motor. 32 hours of labor to replace the A/C Evaporator.

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 02:34 AM
Seems like MB has a problem with blower motors... my friend had to replace the one on his '81 300D, luckly there was a 240D in the junkyard - same blower, we were able to use - been working fine ever since.

I haven't heard of a blower motor going out on an e30, tho I have heard of the resistor on the speed control switch going bad, most people just get a new switch. Both of mine are fine.

Jesda
12-13-09, 02:57 AM
On the E34 and possibly E30, the "sword" goes bad. This saw-shaped circuit board handles all of the climate controls. I found a wacky and accidental combination of slider and knob positions to get the heat to come on. Otherwise, I'd have to whip out a soldering iron and get down to business.

http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Maintenance/Electrical/Sword.htm

http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Maintenance/Electrical/Data/Sword.jpg


Procedure for SWORD repair
You can recondition your sword, component cost is $3.52. You can purchase electronic parts from Mouser electronics (www.mouser.com), stock numbers are listed (no affiliation).

(4) BUZ71A MOSFETS, type TO-220 mouser# 511-STP16NF06 (60v 16A N channel).(old part#: 511-BUZ71A) (thanks to Alun and Mukund)
N-channel, 50V, 13A
(4) 8-32 x 1/4" machine screws
(4) 8-32 x 3/8" machine screws
(12) #8 flat washers
(4) 1/4 x 1/4 bronze threaded standoffs mouser# 534-1692A

1. With the sword out, remove screw from plastic housing on sword handle and remove cover.
2. Remove locnut attaching electrical component from PCB to "wave" plate.
3. Using a hacksaw blade without damaging nearby resistor, cut through epoxy that attaches PCB to wave plate at each MOSFET.
4. Grind epoxy carefully (dremel or bench grinder) on side of PCB opposite wave plate till you hit copper. Three bonding sites should be exposed at each location. Should be able to twist old MOSFETs off wave plate with pliers.
5. Drill 1/16" diameter hole thru PCB as close to each of 12 MOSFET pins as possible.
6. Drill 3/16" diameter throught the swaged-over ends of each standoff. You can now separate the PCB from the wave plate. Careful with the 2-lead component that you unbolted previously.
7. Drill .172 diameter through PCB and wave plate where standoffs went through. Carefully hold each MOSFET in a vise by the edges of the metal tab, and drill it out to .172 also.
8. Bend MOSFET leads 90, holding leads with pliers at the attached end. Use old MOSFET to determine bend location. Take antistatic precautions (ground yourself) before handling MOSFETs.
9. Assemble 8-32 x 1/4 screws thru PCB, and attach standoffs with loctite.
10. Solder in MOSFET with 25W iron, deflux (mouser# 577-1676-125 12oz aerosol defluxer).
11. Lightly sand the contact patch for the MOSFET on the wave plate. Conductivity is very important. Some people use a special conductive grease under the MOSFET Assemble wave plate to upstands with 3 washers under the head of each 3/8" long screw, or grind screws to correct length - no washers required. Use loctite. Attach your 2-wire component from #2 at this time.
12. Spray plate and PCB (whatever is exposed to oxidation) with Fin-L-Kote UR (577-2104-125 12oz aerosol) or use spray lacquer like I did.



FFS! SHEESH!

gary88
12-13-09, 03:01 AM
A pretty common issue with the N54 in my car is the high pressure fuel pump giving out. Most believe it's due to the ethanol put in our gasoline. No worries though as BMW extended the warranty on them to 10 years/120,000 miles on '07 and '08 models, and will replace them with the new unit. For '09 they redesigned the pumps which now have internal seals that are supposed to not deteriorate when exposed to small amounts of ethanol like the previous pumps did.

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 08:27 AM
On the E34 and possibly E30, the "sword" goes bad. This saw-shaped circuit board handles all of the climate controls. I found a wacky and accidental combination of slider and knob positions to get the heat to come on. Otherwise, I'd have to whip out a soldering iron and get down to business.

http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Maintenance/Electrical/Sword.htm

http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Maintenance/Electrical/Data/Sword.jpg



FFS! SHEESH!

Hmm, that's the first I heard of the sword or that repair, not sure if its the same on the e30, but bookmarked in the BMW folder for future reference :)

MisterBlue
12-13-09, 11:25 AM
You will never say anything bad about cadillac again

My love for my Caddy (or anything else, for that matter), doesn't blind me to it's shortcomings. The fact that someone else builds a car that has more or less problems doesn't make my car have more or less problems. Apparently, "big money" cars (of all makes) offer more status, more performance, and more creature comforts than ordinary (cheaper) cars - but they seem to offer no more reliability. And I think that's a pretty sad commentary on all manufacturers. :helpless:

Destroyer
12-13-09, 09:29 PM
Seems like MB has a problem with blower motors... my friend had to replace the one on his '81 300DDude, a 1981 car is now 28 years old. If a part on a 28 year old car breaks it doesn't mean that the manufacturer had a problem with that part. It means that a 28 year old car will have shit that just breaks because it's old. My '67 Olds needs upper ball joints, would it be right for me to say that it seems like Oldsmobiles are somewhat prone to upper ball joint failure? No. Those older Mercedes were sturdy cars.

Night Wolf
12-13-09, 10:50 PM
Dude, a 1981 car is now 28 years old. If a part on a 28 year old car breaks it doesn't mean that the manufacturer had a problem with that part. It means that a 28 year old car will have shit that just breaks because it's old. My '67 Olds needs upper ball joints, would it be right for me to say that it seems like Oldsmobiles are somewhat prone to upper ball joint failure? No. Those older Mercedes were sturdy cars.

Really!?

:rolleyes:

I like that car alot. I5, no turbo. It's like the gas powered golf carts at work, the throttle is either "on" or "off". About the only thing slower then that was the 240D at the junkyard I4, no turbo. It now has 205k. It used to run on free, unwanted Jet-A. There is some sort of idle control knob inside, but the cable is broke, so it shakes the car like crazy at idle. When the key is on, but engine off, there is a loud buzzer, seat belt maybe? Glow plug has a seperate light. He gets in, turns the key to "on", yells "clear prop" then starts the engine. If you have ever flown or been in a small single-engine Cessna, then the sound and vibration levels are oddly similar upon start. Maybe it's because we have both flown them, sort of an inside joke, that it creates something to laugh about each time.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-13-09, 11:55 PM
Mercedes has always had a problem with the A/C systems. They just can't make a reliable setup. A friend's dad had an 300E wagon (W124) and he had a problem with that A/C system, and to fix it would have been about $5,000, so they sold the car. If I'm not mistaken, it was the evaporator too.

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 12:12 AM
My Cadillac honestly hasn't been too expensive to own in the year and half that I've had it. The single most expensive repair was the crankshaft sensors at the beginning of this year which was around $300. I work at the dealership so that helps out alot but even then, it would probably cost a little bit more to own a 5-series or E420 of vintage. My motor has already been rebuilt so that is one thing I shouldn't have to worry about for a long time.

Right now my only issue with the car is my A/C is kinda weak. Could need a recharge, could need a actuator. No biggie, I expect certain things to need repairing on a 10 year old car. It's been a great car so far (knocking on my Zebrano wood).

Night Wolf
12-14-09, 12:23 AM
oddly the A/C system in that '81 300D works great, I think he serviced it up with R12 too. The automatic portion no longer works, and the temp wheel now only has two settings - max cold or max hot. Good times.

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 02:19 AM
Those who sell out to foreign auto companies and put our american blue collar families out of work deserve every negative thing that comes along with owning a foreign vehicle.

LOL! Some of the replies are pretty funny...

Cheap plastic used that would break in alot of things from the rear door ash tray lids to the blend door actuator to the intake manifold. Ford definitely uses inferior plastic compared to other auto makers. I find that GM's plastic hold up quite well, however.


2 BMW's - a second mortgage on the house? twice the girls? $80,000 in repairs over 100k miles? Eh, for me it's simply twice the fun :)
Yea, but who want's the type of girls that BMW's attract? They will cost you just as much in maintenance, will constantly break down, and will rack up huge amounts of time and costs at the repair shop.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 02:45 AM
Those who sell out to foreign auto companies and put our american blue collar families out of work deserve every negative thing that comes along with owning a foreign vehicle.


Oh please. What do you have to say to people who've had negative experiences with American cars?

Besides, my last "furrin" vehicle was made by your fellow Ohioans, so I'm sure their families would appreciate every other Acura TL that's sold off the dealer lot.

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 03:04 AM
Oh please. What do you have to say to people who've had negative experiences with American cars?

Besides, my last "furrin" vehicle was made by your fellow Ohioans, so I'm sure their families would appreciate every other Acura TL that's sold off the dealer lot.

Well since you want to speak of appreciation from fellow Ohioans..... Take a drive to Moraine, Ohio where GM had to close its doors on a town built around the company. Take a look at what used to be a booming city a few years ago and now is a ghost town. The roads are falling apart, 75% of business and restaurants have closed their doors, and poverty is rising by the day. To think if just a few more of the yuppies had thought twice about buying that foreign POS their kids might have food on the table this evening.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 03:09 AM
Well it's a good thing Honda came into town, then.

How is it the consumer's fault, and not the company that closed up shop?

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 03:16 AM
Well it's a good thing Honda came into town, then.

How is it the consumer's fault, and not the company that closed up shop?

Well im not sure what you were taught. However, my grandfather tells me of an ancient time long ago when americans stood by their neighbors side and supported them.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 03:24 AM
I was taught to shop wisely on big ticket items like cars, and not to let outdated ideals get the best of me. And also that belonging to a greedy labor union fleecing an ineptly managed dinosaur of a car company will eventually have its consequences.

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 03:31 AM
I was taught to shop wisely on big ticket items like cars, and not to let outdated ideals get the best of me. And also that belonging to a greedy labor union fleecing an ineptly managed dinosaur of a car company will eventually have its consequences.

So its impossible to shop wisely within American brands? I just think the whole "bad experience with one american car" is a cop out. There are plenty of other American cars and makers to choose from. Lets face it the majority buy foreign cars such as Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW as a status symbol.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 03:41 AM
Before the CTS, what were the American choices in that segment? The Lincoln LS was a good car that Ford failed to update and thus faded into obscurity, and the Chrysler 300C is looking at the same fate. The FWD Cadillacs soldiered along on aging chassis that dynamically were a league below M-B, BMW, and Lexus to begin with. And any luxury car is pretty much a status symbol by definition.

Funny how almost everyone I talk to including myself has had at least one bad experience with an American car.

gary88
12-14-09, 03:46 AM
Lets face it the majority buy foreign cars such as Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW as a status symbol.

If you say so :rofl:

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 03:58 AM
The FWD Cadillacs soldiered along on aging chassis that dynamically were a league below M-B, BMW, and Lexus to begin with.
.
Well you're definitely wrong here. Especially as to the later Sevilles. They had one of the best chassis and suspension systems ever put on a car. Right up there with the corvette.


Funny how almost everyone I talk to including myself has had at least one bad experience with an American car.
Apparently, you did not read the beginning of this thread. It's all about the yuppies having to pay out a $40k repair bill on their foreign POS cars.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 04:09 AM
I'm sure the Seville was a fine car, but stacked against a 5-series from the same year, it simply fell short. If that's not the case, then why was the STS moved off the K chassis to keep up with competition?

Bad experiences with import cars don't magically erase or improve bad experiences with American cars. We don't even have a competitor to the 7-series. But when we do, I'll be the first to buy one once Cadillac depreciation does its thing and falls to within my reach.

Jesda
12-14-09, 04:34 AM
I like cars.


I also like turtles.

osu411yamaha
12-14-09, 05:18 AM
We don't even have a competitor to the 7-series. But when we do, I'll be the first to buy one once Cadillac depreciation does its thing and falls to within my reach.

"we", "we", "we". Well its obvious you have totally sold out to the foreigners. Your headline says you had a 2004 CTS? Well if you're rating your bad experiences of American cars with Cadillac's bottom of the line economy model then that is plain ridiculous. Drive an STS, XLR, DTS, ETC, or Escalade to make a fair comparison.

CIWS
12-14-09, 08:19 AM
I let the manufacturer pay to repair the car. I don't own these without warranty / extended warranty anymore. It doesn't matter much who builds them, all of the luxury brand cars are expensive to own and maintain, it's only a difference of how much.
I bought a brand new 1993 Ford that lunched an engine at 10K miles and everything on that car was expensive to replace. Spark plug wire set from the auto parts store was 115.00 in 1996 (4 cyl), the battery had the terminals reversed from most standard batteries making a replacement harder to acquire and more costly. Brake light bulb was 5.00 ea. In fact in my 6 years of ownership the only part I found that was normal was the headlight. So who designs and builds it is certainly something to consider but no automaker, foreign or domestic, is free from models that are a POS or are expensive to own and maintain.

My complaints right now are not the build of the car, it's keeping the service department from causing damage to it when I give it to them.

Destroyer
12-14-09, 08:32 AM
Mercedes has always had a problem with the A/C systems. They just can't make a reliable setup. A friend's dad had an 300E wagon (W124) and he had a problem with that A/C system, and to fix it would have been about $5,000, so they sold the car. If I'm not mistaken, it was the evaporator too.Thank god I never experienced an A/C problem with a Benz. I know it's a BIG expensive job, might as well be a N* H/G job moneywise. My dad bought an '87 300E new and I bought it off him later on. It was a very reliable car between our 8 years and over 120k mile ownership. The A/C did not give any problems. Besides maintenance all it needed was a water pump and valve stem seals.

Destroyer
12-14-09, 08:40 AM
Lets face it the majority buy foreign cars such as Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW as a status symbol.At one time Cadillac was a status symbol too. Not so much anymore.

Night Wolf
12-14-09, 09:54 AM
Oh this is just too good to briefly reply to on the blackberry... Gives me something to look forward to when I get home :)

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 11:40 AM
"we", "we", "we". Well its obvious you have totally sold out to the foreigners. Your headline says you had a 2004 CTS? Well if you're rating your bad experiences of American cars with Cadillac's bottom of the line economy model then that is plain ridiculous. Drive an STS, XLR, DTS, ETC, or Escalade to make a fair comparison.

I never said my bad experience was with the Caddy. I wouldn't have volunteered myself to buy their theoretical $90k flagship sedan if it was. I'd probably prefer a CTS over any of the FWD models anyway.

You act like it's a bad thing to have choices.

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 12:01 PM
Wow all this negative talk about foreign cars is kinda funny. I have always preferred Cadillac but if I needed something well built and super reliable i'd own a Honda. I personally have 2 friends with 200k+ Honda's and they haven't dealt with any major issues on the cars. I'd also venture to say the Honda's are studier inside than my Seville and hold up better as well. I had a 2000 Camry before my STS, and it's the same story there too. Of course the Cadillac is a much nicer car, but it's also alot more expensive to own. I understand that though because it's a luxury car and other two are economy cars.

I will always prefer to buy American, but I don't have a problem with foreign cars either. Matter of fact we had a man trade in his '98 Mercedes E320 Turbo Diesel at my job the other day and it's hands down a much better built and solid vehicle than my STS ever ventured to be. I don't like it at all, but you have to give credit where it's due.

Vinsanity
12-14-09, 12:31 PM
"we", "we", "we". Well its obvious you have totally sold out to the foreigners. Your headline says you had a 2004 CTS? Well if you're rating your bad experiences of American cars with Cadillac's bottom of the line economy model then that is plain ridiculous. Drive an STS, XLR, DTS, ETC, or Escalade to make a fair comparison.

Besides, even the entry level model of GM's flagship division should maintain standards in line with its price tag. One sign of a good car company is that they make sure that even their cheapest economy cars are built with quality (i.e. Corolla, Civic, Nissan Versa). That was a lesson GM hopefully learned from the J-body, and I don't think Chrysler learned from the Neon. You shouldn't have to buy an Escalade just to have a well-built car.

96Fleetwood
12-14-09, 12:49 PM
The newest Cadillac I have owned was a '99 Concours.. and that was back in 2005 or so... it had its share of issues.

My Father has been buying new Cadillacs since I was a toddler.. his last new Cadillac was a 2007 ESV Escalade. It was at the dealer every other week for some squeak or electrical issue. He sold it a year later because he couldn't stand the poor craftsmanship. He regretted trading his 2005 ESV Platinum on the 2007.. the 2005 had no issues at 40K miles. My Father will no longer buy a new Cadillac after that experience...

My Brother had a 2000 STS, 2002 DTS, and 2005 DTS. The 2000 STS was fairly reliable and withstood his 40K miles/year. His 2002 DTS cost him ~$8K in repairs around 78,000 miles. His 2005 DTS had the transmission fail at 101,000 miles. All three of them burned 2-3 quarts of oil per 3,000 mile oil change; the dealer stated it was normal for a high performance motor. He bought those cars when they were a year or two old. It will take some major convincing to have my Brother buy a newer Cadillac again.

No vehicle is trouble free...

luxury cars = luxury maintenance

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 02:42 PM
I see my fare share of issues on these cars working at the Caddy dealership. It's not even headgaskets or tranny problems... it's little things that start to nickle and dime you to death. Actuators, radios, speakers, suspensions, oil leaks, window regulators, dash clusters, etc.

Now i'm sure things like that aren't just limited to Cadillac, but these older FWD Caddy's aren't the best built. They are super cheap on the used market, but then you spend even more keeping them maintained.

V-Eight
12-14-09, 03:03 PM
I also like turtles.

Chocolate, or actual turtles?




Mmmmmm chocolate turtles...

Spittin Game
12-14-09, 03:31 PM
osu411yamaha supports terrorism.

Jesda
12-14-09, 03:48 PM
At one time Cadillac was a status symbol too. Not so much anymore.

Nah, it still is, just not on the level of what it was in 1931.

The new Cadillac is about the nouveau riche.

V-Eight
12-14-09, 04:03 PM
At one time Cadillac was a status symbol too. Not so much anymore.

Too true. Many of my friends associate Cadillac with 'cheap', 'garbage', along with many other uneducated opinions. What they don't realize is that Cadillac is far superior to most of the BMW and Mercedes they hold so dear. But sadly, they don't see Cadillac as being on the same level as those other brands.

orconn
12-14-09, 05:39 PM
Nah, it still is, just not on the level of what it was in 1931.

Or on through 1970's.


The new Cadillac is about the nouveau riche.

All pretige cars to day are about the "nouveau riche." Old money hasn't really cared about the prestige garnered by car ownership for many decades. Since the availability of easy credit for car leasing and and purchasing, even Mercedes are available to those with relatively limited means .... and becuase of their rapid decline in value in the used car market prestige makes show up in surprising locations.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-14-09, 06:51 PM
Matter of fact we had a man trade in his '98 Mercedes E320 Turbo Diesel at my job the other day and it's hands down a much better built and solid vehicle than my STS ever ventured to be. I don't like it at all, but you have to give credit where it's due.

Well that's a pretty tall statement. Those W210's were one of the lowest points for modern Mercedes. Poor build quality, lots of reliability issues, poor materials used, bad design. When I worked at the Chevy dealer and had that S320, I drove an '01 E320 we got in on trade and was never happier to be an owner of a W140.

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 07:07 PM
I never did have a chance to drive the car, but from just sitting in the driver's seat it felt like a sturdier car. The materials were richer and everything just felt more solid than my car. But then again my car has never been a pinnacle of Cadillac build quality either. Seville's are quite mixed when it comes to build quality and mine is on the lower end of the scale. How would the reliability of the W210 compare to a '98-'03 Seville STS?

We also have a couple of 2006-2007 C-Classes on the lot and I can tell you they are not well built cars. Extremely cheap materials throughout the cabin. I drove a '07 E350 couple months back and I absolutely loved it. Wouldn't hesitate to own one as my next car, and I'm not a Mercedes person either.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-14-09, 07:11 PM
God it's been a while since I've read up on W210s, but I know they were the beginning of the dip for Mercedes. They were no longer engineered to be the best & most durable cars in the world, but rather they were engineered and built for a cost...which was not enough.

Going from a W124 to an early W210 is as bad as going from a W140 to an early W220.

Jesda
12-14-09, 07:13 PM
The W210 is deceiving. Its quiet and smooth but when you look close, everything is pretty cheap. The doors shut with a nice assuring sound, but the materials adorning them are unspecial. I'm glad that when my parents bought their first MB back in the 90s they went with a used W124 instead of a new W210.

Submariner409
12-14-09, 07:15 PM
Even back in the 50's and 60's large American and every foreign car was expensive, in 50's dollars, to own and maintain: based on experience as a Jaguar/MG/Austin Healey/Hillman/Morris/Porsche/Mercedes/Renault/Triumph/Morgan/Ferrari/McLaren-Elva-Chevy driver, grease monkey and mechanic. Better yet, car dealer parts runner and shadetree engine builder.

Now, pushing 2010 with a short stick, nothing has changed: the more power, bells, whistles - the more the toys cost. It's mechanical/electronic: it breaks or wears out. Even our hard drives crash, regardless of the cost.

The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 07:20 PM
Guess I need to take that car for a test drive then and see how I feel about it. I always hated the styling of the car; it's so stodgy looking compared to the 5-series, Seville STS and Lexus GS. The W124's were very classy looking and had alot of mini W140 in it. Those were the only four cars I was considering when I shopped for a new car, and I've been happy with my Seville even if it drives me crazy from time to time. Last night I was looking for another car because the A/C issue has been bothering me for awhile now and I just couldn't see myself driving anything else. I think the closest thing to it really is a Regal GS. Would I be happy with one? No clue, I've never driven a Regal. They're cheap around here though, and plenty to choose from.

Submariner409
12-14-09, 07:23 PM
To repair the Seville A/C is, in the long run, cheaper than another car payment....................just sayin'..........

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 07:27 PM
Well I'm paying for the Seville right now... but you're absolutely right. I've only got $2000 left to pay for it. I think it's going to come down to an actuator or either a A/C recharge. I can't tell, i got a thread going about it in the Seville section and it really does sound like low freon, but I just had it charged a month ago.

She needs a new taillight, some PDR work, new tires, and I'd like a nice window tint for her. I found a set of 17" STS wheels for $500 that I'm considering buying as well. Need to get this A/C business sorted out first, then I'll start with the mods.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-14-09, 07:28 PM
Last night I was looking for another car because the A/C issue has been bothering me for awhile now and I just couldn't see myself driving anything else. I think the closest thing to it really is a Regal GS. Would I be happy with one? No clue, I've never driven a Regal. They're cheap around here though, and plenty to choose from.

The GS overall is 80% of the STS. Roughly the same size, same overall layout, but the interior in the STS is MUCH nicer and the L37 is probably faster all out, but the L67 can give it a good run for it's money out of the hole. The GS doesn't have the level of sophistication that the STS does and has none of the cool electronic things like the STS does (adaptive suspension, holographic gauges, etc etc). It's an STS on a budget.

gdwriter
12-14-09, 07:58 PM
Oh this is just too good to briefly reply to on the blackberry... Gives me something to look forward to when I get home :) :bighead:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-14-09, 08:08 PM
:bighead:

Oh no....no this will be worth it. :) :lildevil:

Destroyer
12-14-09, 10:10 PM
but these older FWD Caddy's aren't the best built.
No they are not. My '98 Deville was a sorry excuse for a luxury car. The interior was cheap, no doubt about it. The dash was peeling up at the corners as was various trim inside, the leather seats were flat and made of cheap leather. If you like all that gimmicky digital crap and consider it "luxury" then yes, a '98 Deville would suit you fine. In all honesty you could jump into an fbody car and then into a Caddy and you would instantaneously be able to tell that both cars were made by the same company but cheap materials really don't matter to you if you want an fbody. Of course the fbody car wouldn't wreak of coolant............

ryannel2003
12-14-09, 10:22 PM
Yeah my dashpad has started to warp around the edges of the defroster vent and in the front of the glovebox, but some glue fixed that. My center console latch broke off right in my hand earlier this year... was so mad I threw the pieces in the street and just went inside. The leather on the Seville's is of better quality than Deville's through; actually, the interiors of the Seville's are just a nicer place to spend time than the '94-'99 Deville IMO. Not well built compared to other luxury brands, but it's a nice looking design.

Night Wolf
12-14-09, 10:28 PM
Alright, after typing up that reply in the airplane thread, I'm not in the mood to type up another....

But one thing stuck out of my mind, to the dude that said you can buy any type of car, from America. Please show me an American version of my BMW e30. No, do not say the Pontiac Fiero. If you do not know what the e30 is and what it's about, then research it. I'll be waiting, as this should be a good response...

Hint: It's not a luxury car.

gary88
12-14-09, 10:35 PM
The Seville interior really is a nice design, just not the best quality. The only problems I've had are the center console wobbling/not closing properly, and the plastic trim pieces around the window switches peeling badly. If you search around you can find out where they didn't think things through/got lazy like the piece of the door trim panel that aren't tucked away where you pull to close the doors, the leather flap hanging on the bottom of the front seats, the huge gap between the top of the dash and doors, the dead pedal that won't accommodate my shoe size, the parking brake that gets in the way of the dead pedal, not being able to read the radio screen when it's in sunlight...

Night Wolf
12-14-09, 11:05 PM
AHHHH Dang, this is just too good....


Those who sell out to foreign auto companies and put our american blue collar families out of work deserve every negative thing that comes along with owning a foreign vehicle.
Ford definitely uses inferior plastic compared to other auto makers. I find that GM's plastic hold up quite well, however.

Yea, but who want's the type of girls that BMW's attract? They will cost you just as much in maintenance, will constantly break down, and will rack up huge amounts of time and costs at the repair shop.

I am a blue collared worker, for what it's worth.

I was called a sell-out when I got my first import, a little 4cyl 5spd 1994 Isuzu Amigo. Strange thing, I went into that thing just needing transportation.... but the more I drove it, the more I liked it. The more I liked how it was made and the overall quality build. That interior was bare bones, I'm talking it made my Jeep interior look luxury. It was hard plastic and vinyl all over... yet it was put together with care and made to last. When I still had that Isuzu, at 135k miles, last year I looked at a Chevy HHR, got inside. I am being completely honest, but other then the newer design/layout, my old, high mile Isuzu's as-is interior put that brand new Chevy's interior to shame. They both used the same hard palstic door panels, but Isuzu finished the edges off nicely, the HHR, it looked like it was cut with a hacksaw, literally sharp edges around the door handle, door lock, and edges of the panel. The dash was not just hard plastic, but a very cheap looking and feeling hard plastic, compared to the Isuzu's fake-grain imprinted vinyl that you could literally punch as hard as you could with your fist, and not even disturb. The hand brake and gear shift level felt like they would rip out, the steering wheel felt cheap...

I actually got back into my '94 Isuzu, which was one of the cheapest Isuzu's in 1994, which was already a cheap brand to buy, and it felt like I went 2 or 3 steps up the quality ladder. That was pretty sad IMO.

So, have I "sold-out" to foreign cars? I own 1 domestic and 2 imports, yet the value of my imports combined is just over half the value of my domestic... so which category do I fall into? If it is the foreign category, then please tell me all the negative things I derserve that come with owning such cars.

Since you mention BMW though, I personally do not use mine for picking up girls. I bought my BMW's for a specific purpose. What purpose? Well the runner up after my e30 was a Mazda Miata. Think of what both of these cars were made for - that is the reason why I bought them.

GM's plastic dosen't hold up that well. My fathers '99 Grand Prix with 140k miles shows more overall wear and issues then My 1992 BMW with ~170k miles, thats not talking about panel gaps large enough to stick your fingers in, buttons that wore out, vinyl parts literally peeling and warping etc...


Well since you want to speak of appreciation from fellow Ohioans..... Take a drive to Moraine, Ohio where GM had to close its doors on a town built around the company. Take a look at what used to be a booming city a few years ago and now is a ghost town. The roads are falling apart, 75% of business and restaurants have closed their doors, and poverty is rising by the day. To think if just a few more of the yuppies had thought twice about buying that foreign POS their kids might have food on the table this evening.

Why is it that just because you don't like a car, it is a POS?

GM made junk. Have you ever been in a Chevy Lumina or Corsica? Can you honestly say it is a better car then an Accord or Camry of similar year? Yes, GM has made solid engines and transmissions in the past, they get that. But they couldn't quite figure out how to put together the rest of the car to not fall apart.

See, I have had several Cadillacs in the past, and Cadillac was one of the last brands to really get the junky end of the GM stick. I also used to spend alot of time on a Pontiac Grand Am site. That car was not built as well as the Caddys I had, so I heard about people complaining about various things often. I didn't understand it because my Cadillac was made to a higher standard. Looking back, it is easy to see the lack of quality in the regular cars.

See while high end luxury cars mean something to some people, most end up with the bread and butter cars, and a large portion of ones reputation is based on that - what is the brand really about? For GM, that would be Chevy, and Chevy's lower-mid level cars. Which, up until recently, were not all that great. The 80's and 90's were an excellent example of this. Compare to just about any of the US-import brands, and look at their bread and butter cars of the 80's and 90's.... even today they still fetch a good amount and are in demand. They were just built better.


Well im not sure what you were taught. However, my grandfather tells me of an ancient time long ago when americans stood by their neighbors side and supported them.

Old minds = old thinking.

Do you rant on your neighbors when they bring home a new 50" Hitachi LCD TV? Where do you think that thing was made? Guess what? I'll bet they paid more money for their imported TV then I paid for my '92 BMW.


So its impossible to shop wisely within American brands? I just think the whole "bad experience with one american car" is a cop out. There are plenty of other American cars and makers to choose from. Lets face it the majority buy foreign cars such as Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW as a status symbol.

In some/various/many cases, that would be correct. As I stated in my reply above, show me an American version of the e30. Again, I didn't buy my BMW's for the roundel.

For what it's worth just to clarify, I have owned 3 Cadillacs, 1 Oldsmobile, 1 Lincoln, and currently one 1 Jeep - on the domestic side.


Well you're definitely wrong here. Especially as to the later Sevilles. They had one of the best chassis and suspension systems ever put on a car. Right up there with the corvette.

Your kidding, right?

Heres a wakeup - the Seville, as nice as it was - was FWD. It was also not avalible with a manual trans. The 5-series that it was trying to compete with was RWD, and could be bought with a manual trans. When trying to create a sporty, performance luxury car - somebody forgot to do their homework.


"we", "we", "we". Well its obvious you have totally sold out to the foreigners. Your headline says you had a 2004 CTS? Well if you're rating your bad experiences of American cars with Cadillac's bottom of the line economy model then that is plain ridiculous. Drive an STS, XLR, DTS, ETC, or Escalade to make a fair comparison.

Still unsure if I "sold out" or not.... let me know tho - k?

You shouldn't have to drive the top model of a premium brand to get quality or a taste of what the brand is about.

Take a 1992 Honda Civic DX, we are talking bare bones, crank the windows econobox. That car was what Honda was about - producing a reliable and no frills car for the average person. It was cheap, it wasn't a luxury car, but it was built well. The quality of what it did have was there.

Take my 1992 BMW 318i. This was the cheapest of the cheap BMW's, a 4cyl, minimal options offered for a BMW. Yet today I am using this car as a daily driver. This car, while the cheapest, most basic and entry level version (ok, it's a rag top version.... not a 4-door) still offered what the brand was about...actually, oddly enough, this little 318i is what BMW is all about, as a whole. This car was built with high quality and made to last - yet the entire interior fit and finish is made of plastic, vinyl and cloth. Today, now 17 years old and after ~170k miles, the engine runs to 7000RPM everday and there is one small crack in the dash. Oh, it was also wrecked twice in it's past, including totaled at one point, yet it still drives very tight and straight, so far has hit 122 and had more left and shows no signs of stopping.

Take a 1992 Chevy Caviler, Corsica or Lumina - What did these cars offer that shared with the rest of GM? Oh.... a cheap interior that would fall apart...

BAM! That was fun.... looking forward to the replies...

gdwriter
12-15-09, 01:38 AM
I guess I must have gotten one of the good ones. The build quality on my Seville is solid; there are no squeaks, rattles, loose bits or worn trim at almost 90,000 miles. The little door at the front of the console is misaligned and takes a few tries to close, but when I was having other service done at the dealer, I had them check it; the door can't be adjusted, and the only replacement part is for the whole damn console, so I can live with it. And at least on my car, the leather is very soft and definitely feels a cut above the rather stiff, coarse leather in my sister's '06 Honda Odyssey Touring.

Even Cruella, at 257,700 miles has very few squeaks or rattles. There's clearly wear on a nearly 20-year-old car, but it's still in remarkably good shape for its age and mileage. I can only attest to the last 4 1/2 years, so it may have not gotten the best of care before I bought it.

BTW Rick, I bought a '91 Corsica new, fully loaded including the V6 and Level III suspension. It was virtually trouble-free for 4 years and 70,000 miles. There were a few cheap looking parts in the interior, but nothing broke or fell apart. My boss at the time had a new Accord, and it didn't come across as significantly better, and it was definitely slower. The Lumina OTOH, was a fugly POS.

One last thing, yes, the Seville is FWD vs. RWD on the BMW 5 Series. For a small percentage of the high-end luxury market, that's an important difference. But the average luxury car buyer probably wouldn't know the difference or even know which wheels are doing do the driving. And an even smaller percentage buy a 5 Series with a stick, although I give BMW credit for offering one. So except for the purists, the Seville was competitive. The August 2001 article from Automobile magazine I have compares the DTS and STS very favorably with a Mercedes-Benz S Class, which the article's author had been driving immediately prior to the trip with the two Cadillacs. To quote:


"...to my surprise, setting off in the DeVille, I found myself thinking I was now at the wheel of a more elegant and luxurious car. The considerably more affordable Caddies felt more solid, more luxurious, and better built."

Put that in your BMW roundel and spin it.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 02:08 AM
Oh no....no this will be worth it. :) :lildevil:Not really. SSDD.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 02:44 AM
Oh this is just too good to briefly reply to on the blackberry... Gives me something to look forward to when I get home :)
Well I see after the long response in the latter post you spent the majority of the work day preparing for it. :) A lot of free time in the work day?:yup: Sounds like I would like to have your job.:yup:


Yeah my dashpad has started to warp around the edges of the defroster vent and in the front of the glovebox, but some glue fixed that. My center console latch broke off right in my hand earlier this year... was so mad I threw the pieces in the street and just went inside. The leather on the Seville's is of better quality than Deville's through; actually, the interiors of the Seville's are just a nicer place to spend time than the '94-'99 Deville IMO. Not well built compared to other luxury brands, but it's a nice looking design.
Ryan.....
You can't rate or compare the dependability of a car to other cars when it is 10 years old. If you look at almost any dependability study they are based on comparisons between models that are roughly 3 years old. At 10 years you are inevitably going to have things go wrong. If you're buying 9-10 year old cars on credit and pay the shop to work on them then you are setting yourself up to dislike the quality of the car in the long run.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 02:54 AM
Alright, after typing up that reply in the airplane thread, I'm not in the mood to type up another....

But one thing stuck out of my mind, to the dude that said you can buy any type of car, from America. Please show me an American version of my BMW e30. No, do not say the Pontiac Fiero. If you do not know what the e30 is and what it's about, then research it. I'll be waiting, as this should be a good response...

Hint: It's not a luxury car.
Yes, I know. Its comparable to the car that comes in the Beach Barbie set. I think it even came with matching "Barbie" and "Ken" embroidered headrests.:cool2:

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 03:08 AM
doesn't Barbie have a pink convertible Corvette?

Jesda
12-15-09, 03:58 AM
I've generally had more reliable and less costly service from American cars. Could be luck, or it could be quality. Whatever.

Jesda
12-15-09, 03:59 AM
doesn't Barbie have a pink convertible Corvette?

I think she had a Solstice for a while, but that's a two seater.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 06:53 AM
Yes, I know. Its comparable to the car that comes in the Beach Barbie set. I think it even came with matching "Barbie" and "Ken" embroidered headrests.:cool2:

Alright, now that we got that put of the way, I'm still waiting for you to show me a comparable American car.

Or are you eating your own words because you can't produce an example?

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 07:04 AM
Alright, now that we got that put of the way, I'm still waiting for you to show me a comparable American car.

Or are you eating your own words because you can't produce an example?

To be honest I could care less, because its obvious you missed my point and you are getting way too serious about this. I do think though that there are plenty of American cabriolet style cars out there from the early 90's that one could have chose from as opposed to the BMW. My point though was that there may not be an exact copy of a foreign car in the domestic form, but I am sure the consumer can always find a domestic vehicle that exhibits the majority of the features they are looking for. Personally, I would sacrifice a few options to support my fellow Americans.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:05 AM
Well I see after the long response in the latter post you spent the majority of the work day preparing for it. :) A lot of free time in the work day?:yup: Sounds like I would like to have your job.:yup:


Ryan.....
You can't rate or compare the dependability of a car to other cars when it is 10 years old. If you look at almost any dependability study they are based on comparisons between models that are roughly 3 years old. At 10 years you are inevitably going to have things go wrong. If you're buying 9-10 year old cars on credit and pay the shop to work on them then you are setting yourself up to dislike the quality of the car in the long run.

Yeah - its a gov't job. Done avoiding a response?

orconn
12-15-09, 07:15 AM
I find it most interesting the young, childless men seem to take an interest in what kind of car Barbie is driving!

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:26 AM
I guess I must have gotten one of the good ones. The build quality on my Seville is solid; there are no squeaks, rattles, loose bits or worn trim at almost 90,000 miles. The little door at the front of the console is misaligned and takes a few tries to close, but when I was having other service done at the dealer, I had them check it; the door can't be adjusted, and the only replacement part is for the whole damn console, so I can live with it. And at least on my car, the leather is very soft and definitely feels a cut above the rather stiff, coarse leather in my sister's '06 Honda Odyssey Touring.

Even Cruella, at 257,700 miles has very few squeaks or rattles. There's clearly wear on a nearly 20-year-old car, but it's still in remarkably good shape for its age and mileage. I can only attest to the last 4 1/2 years, so it may have not gotten the best of care before I bought it.

BTW Rick, I bought a '91 Corsica new, fully loaded including the V6 and Level III suspension. It was virtually trouble-free for 4 years and 70,000 miles. There were a few cheap looking parts in the interior, but nothing broke or fell apart. My boss at the time had a new Accord, and it didn't come across as significantly better, and it was definitely slower. The Lumina OTOH, was a fugly POS.

One last thing, yes, the Seville is FWD vs. RWD on the BMW 5 Series. For a small percentage of the high-end luxury market, that's an important difference. But the average luxury car buyer probably wouldn't know the difference or even know which wheels are doing do the driving. And an even smaller percentage buy a 5 Series with a stick, although I give BMW credit for offering one. So except for the purists, the Seville was competitive. The August 2001 article from Automobile magazine I have compares the DTS and STS very favorably with a Mercedes-Benz S Class, which the article's author had been driving immediately prior to the trip with the two Cadillacs. To quote:


"...to my surprise, setting off in the DeVille, I found myself thinking I was now at the wheel of a more elegant and luxurious car. The considerably more affordable Caddies felt more solid, more luxurious, and better built."

Put that in your BMW roundel and spin it.

The BMW roundel has begun spinning?

Two things:

1) you had your corsica since new, until it was 4 yrs old. Even a 90's GM shouldn't have an interior that fell apart in 4yrs. The question is, how did these cars hold together when they were 6-10 yrs old? What about today?

2) I am not saying the sts/dts is a bad comfy luxury car. Think back to your reply to the concord - agreeing that plane was not made to create profit (what an airliner should do) but for the fact of proving a point.

Now think back to Cadillac. They were known for making old persons luxury cars. They wanted a slice of the pie and dethrone BMW. It dosent matter how many people bought a 5 series because it was rwd or a manual trans. Cadillac wanted to play in the sporty performance luxury car scene. The car was a statement that cadillac was back and ready to take on what was considerded the benchmark. They brought a knief to a gun fight.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 08:44 AM
The BMW roundel has begun spinning?

Two things:

1) you had your corsica since new, until it was 4 yrs old. Even a 90's GM shouldn't have an interior that fell apart in 4yrs. The question is, how did these cars hold together when they were 6-10 yrs old? What about today?

2) I am not saying the sts/dts is a bad comfy luxury car. Think back to your reply to the concord - agreeing that plane was not made to create profit (what an airliner should do) but for the fact of proving a point.

Now think back to Cadillac. They were known for making old persons luxury cars. They wanted a slice of the pie and dethrone BMW. It dosent matter how many people bought a 5 series because it was rwd or a manual trans. Cadillac wanted to play in the sporty performance luxury car scene. The car was a statement that cadillac was back and ready to take on what was considerded the benchmark. They brought a knief to a gun fight.

I guess my only question at this point is when you take a stroll in your beamer with the top down do you also wear the accessories that usually go along with it? That would be a pink polo, popper collar, aviator sunglasses, and fake rolex? Oh and I almost left out the combover haircut.....

R6DTS
12-15-09, 08:56 AM
I dont know what people here do to test the quality of a car but what I do is sit in the car and run my hands over stuff to feel for any rough edges.

Also push on different parts of the dash to see if they squeak or groan. And try to wiggle the center console from side to side. If I cant do any of this, the interior is probably pretty well put together and wont rattle or flex when you go over bumps, which I hate.

The 04 DTS is pretty good at all of this, wayyyyy better than other GM vehicles of similiar year, but definately behind MB and BMW's of the same year. Still, it was good enough, and mine with almost 70,000 miles is virtually rattle free.

But even this method isnt the best, since VW's will usually pass all these tests, but their quality scores are some of the worst out there.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:41 AM
I guess my only question at this point is when you take a stroll in your beamer with the top down do you also wear the accessories that usually go along with it? That would be a pink polo, popper collar, aviator sunglasses, and fake rolex? Oh and I almost left out the combover haircut.....

I've got that coverd, then some.

I will take your comments as being unable to provide a decent reply. I was looking forward to it, your leaving me hangin!

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 09:44 AM
I've got that coverd, then some.

I will take your comments as being unable to provide a decent reply. I was looking forward to it, your leaving me hangin!

Yes, I figured you did. I don't like to stereotype, but after reading your responses you struck me as the type. Comparable to what some women use for sanitation.

hueterm
12-15-09, 10:04 AM
Yes, I figured you did. I don't like to stereotype, but after reading your responses you struck me as the type. Comparable to what some women use for sanitation.


Isn't it about time to ban this guy again??

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 10:08 AM
Isn't it about time to ban this guy again??

Wow. Some of you take me way too serious. Maybe I should start using more smiley faces.

ryannel2003
12-15-09, 10:13 AM
You can't rate or compare the dependability of a car to other cars when it is 10 years old. If you look at almost any dependability study they are based on comparisons between models that are roughly 3 years old. At 10 years you are inevitably going to have things go wrong. If you're buying 9-10 year old cars on credit and pay the shop to work on them then you are setting yourself up to dislike the quality of the car in the long run.

I don't have any financing on my car; my parents bought me the car and I pay them each month. Financing a car this old and this much electronics is just asking for trouble in the long run.

My car really hasn't been unreliable compared to what I've seen out there, but the build quality of my Seville has not been great. At 10 years old I don't expect the car to be perfect, but I also don't expect things to just break when my 10 year old Camry doesn't have any of these same issues. I know the original owners of this car and they were an older couple who were very particular about the car and if anything needed work it was in the shop ASAP. I've been inside a few Seville's that didn't feel as flimsy as mine does, and i've been inside a few that were worse. Seville was not a high point for Cadillac build quality.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 10:20 AM
I don't have any financing on my car; my parents bought me the car and I pay them each month. Financing a car this old and this much electronics is just asking for trouble in the long run.

My car really hasn't been unreliable compared to what I've seen out there, but the build quality of my Seville has not been great. At 10 years old I don't expect the car to be perfect, but I also don't expect things to just break when my 10 year old Camry doesn't have any of these same issues. I know the original owners of this car and they were an older couple who were very particular about the car and if anything needed work it was in the shop ASAP. I've been inside a few Seville's that didn't feel as flimsy as mine does, and i've been inside a few that were worse. Seville was not a high point for Cadillac build quality.

So far I love my 2000 Seville STS. There have been some minor things that could be expected at 10 years, but then again I enjoy fixing these things myself. It is when one has to pay others to do this that one quickly becomes frustrated with a vehicle. I know you work at a dealership, but the best thing you can do for yourself is make use of this great forum and start working on the vehicle yourself. It will save you tons of money and nothing feels better in the end than the satisfaction of repairing it yourself. So far I have yet to drive a car I like better than my Seville. This includes my moms 2009 CTS4 and my stepdads 2007 Escalade. Then again I have never owned a european luxury car and as you can tell from my latter posts never will.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 10:35 AM
Yes, I figured you did. I don't like to stereotype, but after reading your responses you struck me as the type. Comparable to what some women use for sanitation.

Now that you have determined my sexual orientation based on the car I drive:

I take this as you eating your own words about being able to buy any type of car on the American market.

Still wondering if I am an import sellputt or not.

Carry on with the immature comments....

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 10:44 AM
Now that you have determined my sexual orientation based on the car I drive:

I take this as you eating your own words about being able to buy any type of car on the American market.

Still wondering if I am an import sellputt or not.

Carry on with the immature comments....

My comment had nothing to do with your sexual orientation nor was it intended to. I guess through all of that seriousness you cannot figure out what I was saying. Relax man. Half of what I say is a joke. That is the unfortunate part about the net. It is hard to pick up on peoples mannerisms and tone which is half of all communication.

billc83
12-15-09, 10:52 AM
All of this discussion of selling out to the foreigners is useless, unless the car was bought new.

An E30 BMW is a far cry (and also purchasers are of a much different demographic) than a new BMW, even a 1-series. I doubt Night Wolf wears "a pink polo, popper collar, aviator sunglasses, and fake rolex? Oh and I almost left out the combover haircut....."

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 11:01 AM
So far I love my 2000 Seville STS. There have been some minor things that could be expected at 10 years, but then again I enjoy fixing these things myself. It is when one has to pay others to do this that one quickly becomes frustrated with a vehicle. I know you work at a dealership, but the best thing you can do for yourself is make use of this great forum and start working on the vehicle yourself. It will save you tons of money and nothing feels better in the end than the satisfaction of repairing it yourself. So far I have yet to drive a car I like better than my Seville. This includes my moms 2009 CTS4 and my stepdads 2007 Escalade. Then again I have never owned a european luxury car and as you can tell from my latter posts never will.

Your saying to work on these cars yourself, instead of paying a shop to work on them - because one will become quickly frustrated with them....

But then laugh at some dude spending 20 or 40 grand on repairs that was obviously performed by a shop, on a car that no American brand even has a car to compete with.

You sound like you are in your teens.... I can relate, there was a time I never thought I'd own a BMW, and would argue that my Cadillacs were better.

Cadillac makes nice cars, but in the time period I can afford, they did not make fun or sporty cars. Their attempt to do so - such as your 2000 STS, while a nice plush luxury car, is simply not what it was trying to be - a sporty performance luxury car to take on the benchmark set by the Germans. I am still loling to your comment about the fwd seville having one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.

96Fleetwood
12-15-09, 11:19 AM
Here we go again... another one of these threads....

If you do a search, these types of threads usually end up centering on a Lincoln Town Car, Jeep Wranger.. or of late... e30 BMWs.

There is no American equivalent to the e30 BMW from that era, that was not goal of American car makers at the time.

The Tony Show
12-15-09, 11:33 AM
When I was younger and buying cheap older cars (mid-eighties), I always found that imports like Mazda and Toyota held up better as they got older. Nowadays that isn't the case. I have a 13 year old Lincoln MarkVIII and a 5 year old GMC Envoy, and both are well built and don't break.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 11:56 AM
Your saying to work on these cars yourself, instead of paying a shop to work on them - because one will become quickly frustrated with them....

But then laugh at some dude spending 20 or 40 grand on repairs that was obviously performed by a shop, on a car that no American brand even has a car to compete with.

Im saying anyone will get quickly frustrated paying a shop to perform repairs that may likely exceed the value of ANY luxury car. American or European. The perk with the American cars are they are easier for the common person to learn to work on and parts are significantly cheaper.


You sound like you are in your teens.... I can relate, there was a time I never thought I'd own a BMW, and would argue that my Cadillacs were better.

I actually thought you were in your teens, also. When I was I used to do the same as you. That is misinterpret what people are saying and quick to get serious when someone was kidding with me.


Cadillac makes nice cars, but in the time period I can afford, they did not make fun or sporty cars. Their attempt to do so - such as your 2000 STS, while a nice plush luxury car, is simply not what it was trying to be - a sporty performance luxury car to take on the benchmark set by the Germans. I am still loling to your comment about the fwd seville having one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.
Why do you assume Cadillac or any American brand is ever trying to compete and copy. Maybe they are trying to develop their own niche. Lets face it....American car companies have developed the majority of the automotive techology that is stole from us.
As to the Seville suspension apparently you have not done your research of the suspension system on the Seville.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 11:56 AM
My comment had nothing to do with your sexual orientation nor was it intended to. I guess through all of that seriousness you cannot figure out what I was saying. Relax man. Half of what I say is a joke. That is the unfortunate part about the net. It is hard to pick up on peoples mannerisms and tone which is half of all communication.

Right, but what about a reply to all those statements you made that I questioned?

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 11:57 AM
To be honest I could care less, because its obvious you missed my point and you are getting way too serious about this. I do think though that there are plenty of American cabriolet style cars out there from the early 90's that one could have chose from as opposed to the BMW. My point though was that there may not be an exact copy of a foreign car in the domestic form, but I am sure the consumer can always find a domestic vehicle that exhibits the majority of the features they are looking for. Personally, I would sacrifice a few options to support my fellow Americans.

Like what? Vanilla Ice's Mustang? This is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to American carmakers failing to grasp the market. If the Fox Mustang was supposed to be good enough for BMW E30 shoppers, then it's no wonder they're all losing money today. Even today, we don't have a competitor to the convertible 3-series. Although I would love a droptop CTS.

Once upon a time, the big 3 thought too that Americans should make sacrifices for the sake of nationalism. Thankfully, they can no longer afford to be that arrogant, because that's a very un-American thing to do.

Yeah and what's with the hate on pink polos and aviators? I don't hate on the shit you wear. First the cars, then the clothes...I'm starting to sense a bit of insecurity :rolleyes:

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 11:59 AM
Right, but what about a reply to all those statements you made that I questioned?

Neither was that. Apparently you also need to look up what women use for sanitation.:bouncy: Hint:Nothing to do with homosexuality.....

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 12:02 PM
Like what? Vanilla Ice's Mustang? This is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to American carmakers failing to grasp the market. If the Fox Mustang was supposed to be good enough for BMW E30 shoppers, then it's no wonder they're all losing money today. Even today, we don't have a competitor to the convertible 3-series. Although I would love a droptop CTS.

Yeah and what's with the hate on pink polos and aviators? I don't hate on the shit you wear. First the cars, then the clothes...I'm starting to sense a bit of insecurity :rolleyes:
Im still wondering why you keep saying "we" when referring to BMW. You are listed as owning a CTS. Do you work for BMW?

LOL. So you do wear pink polos and aviators?:tisk:

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 12:04 PM
Here we go again... another one of these threads....

If you do a search, these types of threads usually end up centering on a Lincoln Town Car, Jeep Wranger.. or of late... e30 BMWs.

There is no American equivalent to the e30 BMW from that era, that was not goal of American car makers at the time.

Thank you! See, the question at hand was that people sell out to foreign cars when they can shop the American market as they offer all variations of cars.

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 12:30 PM
Im still wondering why you keep saying "we" when referring to BMW. You are listed as owning a CTS. Do you work for BMW?

LOL. So you do wear pink polos and aviators?:tisk:

"we" as in America. America doesn't have a premium convertible to compete with the 3-series. I don't see how it can be misconstrued that "we" is in reference to BMW.

And yeah. You got me. I work for BMW. At the South Carolina assembly plant. Along with thousands of other Americans who earn our living from every new BMW vehicle sold. And my outfit cost more than your entire wardrobe.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 12:43 PM
And my outfit cost more than your entire wardrobe.Yes, those Versacce pink polos do cost a pretty penny. :)

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-15-09, 12:57 PM
The quality of materials in my Lincoln is quite poor. I have a new crack in the dash that literally came from nothing. My car is parked in a garage for winter. I came out one morning and there was a long but thin crack running vertically up the passenger side of the dash. There are tons of squeaks and rattles, most of them I have ironed out. The hinges on the center console are also pretty much shot and about 2 months ago the power trunk pull down died on me, the gears stripped out. Also, the horn button gets stuck on at times so I have had to pull the fuse for them.

The Cadillac is much better quality on the inside, although there is a lot of hard plastic. So far the only issue with it is the driver door armrest and the rear driver side door armrest. The vinyl on both of them has cracked. Its cheap, thin vinyl that was not meant to hold up to years of use. It was a bad decision on GMs part.

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 01:43 PM
Yes, those Versacce pink polos do cost a pretty penny. :)

Looking this sexy ain't cheap playa

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 01:47 PM
Looking this sexy ain't cheap playa

::usflag:
:youarewoman:

gdwriter
12-15-09, 02:15 PM
Here we go again... another one of these threads....

If you do a search, these types of threads usually end up centering on a Lincoln Town Car, Jeep Wranger.. or of late... e30 BMWs.You forgot about the Isuzu Amigo, Elias. :histeric:

This is Rick's typical MO. Whatever cars we like, he'll always write hundreds if not thousands of words about why his choices are so much better and if you don't like Jeeps, BMWs or stick-shifts, you have no idea of what's fun to drive. :blah:

Clearly, Rick, your perception of Cadillacs is stuck in the past with your former Coupe de Ville, Sedan de Ville and Brougham. FWD or not, the 92+ Seville, especially in STS form is a performance luxury sedan, as anybody who's spent time with these cars can attest. How many miles have you driven one? I'm betting none or not much more than that. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts.

And if you think our crappy Cadillacs are so poorly built, old-people cars that aren't any fun to drive and aren't competitive at all to your precious BMWs, why are you here? Just to annoy people?

gdwriter
12-15-09, 02:22 PM
I won't go as far as OSUYamaha to say that it's un-American to buy a foreign car; everybody's entitled to their choice. But to make any kind of blanket statement that American cars are always inferior or foreign ones are always superior is simply ignorant.

concorso
12-15-09, 03:25 PM
To be honest I could care less, because its obvious you missed my point and you are getting way too serious about this. I do think though that there are plenty of American cabriolet style cars out there from the early 90's that one could have chose from as opposed to the BMW. My point though was that there may not be an exact copy of a foreign car in the domestic form, but I am sure the consumer can always find a domestic vehicle that exhibits the majority of the features they are looking for. Personally, I would sacrifice a few options to support my fellow Americans.Options? How about availability of a car with great driving characteristics. I laaugh everytime someone says that Cadillac made a good driver in the 90's. Ive driven them all, I wanted a Cadillac. But they were all fwd boats. Even the lightest Eldorado was a torque happy fwd 3600 lb nightmare. Until the CTS, GM didnt have a good driving smallish sedan. The Catera was underwhelming on paper, and even moreso to drive. Fact is, until the newer Cadillacs, GM didnt give make anytthing I (and alot of other sporting drivers) even remotely wanted. The real twist is when you put the onus on the consumer, instead of the manufacturer. GM was out of touch with this part of the market. GM knew it. The consumers purchases proved it.

concorso
12-15-09, 03:28 PM
Yes, those Versacce pink polos do cost a pretty penny. :)Whats wrong with pink? I have a few pinks shirts. I work on my cars too, do as much of my own maintenance as possible. I have a collection of nice shoes. Im just as comfortable driving a Miata as I am driving an F350. Whats your point...

concorso
12-15-09, 03:32 PM
Lets face it....American car companies have developed the majority of the automotive techology that is stole from us.
You really need to check out your facts first. Some of the biggest and most widely used and highly regarded technology has come from other brands. There have been just as many important 'firsts' from Mercedes as there has been from Cadillac.

concorso
12-15-09, 03:35 PM
Im still wondering why you keep saying "we" when referring to BMW. You are listed as owning a CTS. Do you work for BMW?

LOL. So you do wear pink polos and aviators?:tisk:Is your reading comprehension really that poor, or are you trying to be a comical dick and just failing miserably?


Luckily for people like me, and anyone who wants to see CAdillac do well, youre not in charge at GM or Cadillac. Youd have them making j-body cavaliers and more outdated Sevilles. You be championing a Cadillac flag in one hand, while you dig GM's grave with the other.

Kick94sts
12-15-09, 03:39 PM
I never thought I'd see this type of thread on a Cadillac forum. All the bashing between American and European cars... I thought this forum was beyond that.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 03:42 PM
Whats wrong with pink? I have a few pinks shirts. I work on my cars too, do as much of my own maintenance as possible. I have a collection of nice shoes. Im just as comfortable driving a Miata as I am driving an F350. Whats your point...

LOL. Nothing is wrong with pink. Go reread the statements leading up to it.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 03:48 PM
Is your reading comprehension really that poor, or are you trying to be a comical dick and just failing miserably?


Luckily for people like me, and anyone who wants to see CAdillac do well, youre not in charge at GM or Cadillac. Youd have them making j-body cavaliers and more outdated Sevilles. You be championing a Cadillac flag in one hand, while you dig GM's grave with the other.
Well is updating the brand producing more economy CTS's? I will tell you this...I just watched my mom pay near $50k for a loaded CTS and after driving it I quickly realized it isn't half the car of my 10 years older STS. I love Cadillac and for the simple fact that it is an American brand I want to see it succeed, but its cars like the CTS that will drive it into the ground. Fortunately, cars like the XTS and CTS-V will save it.....

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 04:02 PM
The XTS? Really? A car built on the chassis of the Buick Regal and Chevy Malibu is supposed to "save" Cadillac while the model regarded as its most competent drives it into the ground? Ok. Well at least the CTS has its own chassis, and one befitting a $40k car at that.

I'm sorry you don't think the new CTS is as good as your old hat Seville, but I bet the thousands of other people dropping money on CTS's would beg to differ. Otherwise they would still be making the FWD Seville.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 04:13 PM
Options? How about availability of a car with great driving characteristics. I laugh everytime someone says that Cadillac made a good driver in the 90's. Fact is, until the newer Cadillacs, GM didn't give make anything I (and a lot of other sporting drivers) even remotely wanted. The real twist is when you put the onus on the consumer, instead of the manufacturer. GM was out of touch with this part of the market. GM knew it. The consumers purchases proved it.Oh, really? :suspect:

4th-generation Seville:
1992 43,953
1993 37,239
1994 46,713
1995 38,931
1996 38,238
1997 42,117
Total 247,191

5th-generation Seville:
1998: 33,270

Have not been able to find numbers for the rest of the fifth generation, but since you're talking about the 90s, sales of the 4th-generation Seville are the most relevant anyway. Sure there were some geezers buying these cars, but plenty of driving enthusiasts as well. The bottom line is this was hardly a sales flop.

As with Rick, you're entitled to your opinions but not your own set of facts.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 04:21 PM
The XTS? Really? A car built on the chassis of the Buick Regal and Chevy Malibu is supposed to "save" Cadillac while the model regarded as its most competent drives it into the ground? Ok. Well at least the CTS has its own chassis, and one befitting a $40k car at that.

I'm sorry you don't think the new CTS is as good as your old hat Seville, but I bet the thousands of other people dropping money on CTS's would beg to differ. Otherwise they would still be making the FWD Seville.
Why does a car have to have its own chassis to make it good in your opinion? That makes no logical sense to me. If its a good chassis what does it matter if its shared between cars.

In my opinion most buy the CTS because of its looks. It is definitely a beautiful car. The majority in this market have no clue of what a true Cadillac is. This in my opinion would be the STS and DTS at the moment. Then again that is likely what Cadillac was aiming at with this vehicle. A younger market with sportier tastes. It's not that I dont "think" the 2010 CTS is as good as my 2000 STS. It's that I know it isn't. The leather in my car is softer, the ride is better, there is more room in the cockpit, the exterior body kit is better fitting, and mine has more hp and torque. Now the cts-v with Recaros is a whole different story. It blows mine out of the water.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 04:29 PM
I love my Seville, and I love the 2nd-generation CTS. It will likely be my next car in a few years. They're both good cars, and while the CTS is more competitive in terms of driving dynamics to BMW, et. al., the 92+ Seville is hardly a POS.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 04:33 PM
I love my Seville, and I love the 2nd-generation CTS. It will likely be my next car in a few years. They're both good cars, and while the CTS is more competitive in terms of driving dynamics to BMW, et. al., the 92+ Seville is hardly a POS.

Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges, but have you rode in the 2nd gen CTS? I tried driving my moms the other day and could hardly stand it. The whole time I was looking at what it didn't have that my STS has. Like a roomy cockpit and power.

Jesda
12-15-09, 04:33 PM
The Seville had NO problem selling despite its quality problems and being FWD. It was comfortable, quick, beautiful, and smooth, easily meeting the criteria for being a Cadillac. The idea of a sporty Cadillac wasn't that important, not at the time. Even not-so-sporty MB was dramatically outselling BMW, and Buick was still moving over 300,000 units a year. The 90s were a different time, and the Seville was a very satisfying car with a lot to offer. The price got really high though.

billc83
12-15-09, 04:36 PM
Why does a car have to have its own chassis to make it good in your opinion? That makes no logical sense to me. If its a good chassis what does it matter if its shared between cars.

In my opinion most buy the CTS because of its looks. It is definitely a beautiful car. The majority in this market have no clue of what a true Cadillac is. This in my opinion would be the STS and DTS at the moment. Then again that is likely what Cadillac was aiming at with this vehicle. A younger market with sportier tastes. It's not that I dont "think" the 2010 CTS is as good as my 2000 STS. It's that I know it isn't. The leather in my car is softer, the ride is better, there is more room in the cockpit, the exterior body kit is better fitting, and mine has more hp and torque. Now the cts-v with Recaros is a whole different story. It blows mine out of the water.

^ I have a Deville, not a Seville, so I can't speak for interior room or softness of the seats, but:

A ride can be softer or firmer, but whether it is "better" or not is a matter of personal OPINION.
The exterior body kit is a matter of OPINION as well.
The DI 3.6 puts out 304 hp; the Northstar V8 puts out 300. Though I can't vouch for the torque.
I'm also fairly sure some people would prefer a tighter cockpit and firmer seats, another matter of OPINION.

This really just sounds like the Seville is a better car for you than the CTS.

Jesda
12-15-09, 04:37 PM
Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges, but have you rode in the CTS 2nd gen CTS. I tried driving my moms the other day and could hardly stand it. The whole time I was looking at what it didn't have that my STS has. Like a roomy cockpit and power.

I rented a 2009 CTS and took it to Chicago. Great car, but it wasn't friendly to my short legs and lacked the little bit of sparkle and luxury feel that's in the 2003 Seville. That's fine, because the CTS is a much more affordable car especially after adjusting for inflation. It didn't feel very open and airy inside because of the high beltline, but there was plenty of real space for four adults.

The CTS wagon is the best thing Cadillac has offered in decades.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 04:43 PM
^ I have a Deville, not a Seville, so I can't speak for interior room or softness of the seats, but:

A ride can be softer or firmer, but whether it is "better" or not is a matter of personal OPINION..Agreed.



The exterior body kit is a matter of OPINION as well..I was actually talking about the fitting of the body kit. The CTS definitely has a nicer body kit, but at least on my moms it doesn't fit the body correctly and has a lot of gaps.



The DI 3.6 puts out 304 hp; the Northstar V8 puts out 300. Though I can't vouch for the torque.
I was thinking around 250. I got on it in the CTS and it just didnt feel as powerful. Guess it was just my perception

This really just sounds like the Seville is a better car for you than the CTS.Agreed. I used to think my next car was going to be a CTS-V until driving it. Now I think the STS-V is better for my personal preferences.

R6DTS
12-15-09, 04:43 PM
I would rather have a Seville STS or a Deville DTS, which I have, over the new CTS. The new CTS is probably more reliable, but thats just because its new. They took away the cool features on the new Caddies. No electrolum gauges anymore, I dont think the CTS has a high tech suspension, its cramped, ride isnt as good, and overall it just doesnt feel as luxurious as the newer ones, cant get a V8 unless you get the $80k CTS-V or however much it cost..

For highway crusing, and 7/10th's driving, the old STS/DTS just cant be beat.

Temptone1
12-15-09, 04:46 PM
If you have ever been to Europe, you will know, and for those who have not been...Mercedes and Audis are Taxi cabs there....No they aren't as bedecked with crap as the ones they sell here but they are CABS. BMW's are commonly used as Police vehicles. So basically Americans are suckered into buying European work vehicles by all the luxuries that they add to those cars, which probably function well day to day and have parts available as easy as we get Chevy and Caddy parts. The first car that Europeans want when they move here is "A CADILLAC" especially Russians....that is a real love affair...Then they end up with a Mercedes or two...That's another whole story.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 04:47 PM
Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges, but have you rode in the 2nd gen CTS? I tried driving my moms the other day and could hardly stand it. The whole time I was looking at what it didn't have that my STS has. Like a roomy cockpit and power.Just a quick spin around the block in Jesda's rental in Chicago. The front felt less roomy than my Seville, but I think that's due to the sweep of the center of the dash. Not a deal breaker. With the driver's seat adjusted for me, the back seat in the CTS is actually roomier than in the Seville.

I didn't drive the CTS enough to make a valid judgment, but the engine sounds good and has good thrust.

Overall, the CTS felt less luxurious than my Seville, but that's likely because Jesda's was a basic rental with few if any options. And the CTS is at a different price point than was the Seville, which was probably overpriced in its last few years.

I certainly didn't come out of the CTS wanting to trade immediately, but it's still #1 on my list for my next car.

Vinsanity
12-15-09, 04:52 PM
Why does a car have to have its own chassis to make it good in your opinion? That makes no logical sense to me. If its a good chassis what does it matter if its shared between cars.

That's the thing, it's not a good chassis to begin with. In the more mainstream applications it was originally meant for, the Epsilon cars are already beaten out by its competition here (Ford Fusion, Honda Accord) and in Europe (Ford Mondeo, VW Passat). So I can't quite imagine that it will do well in a higher-end segment. As I've said over and over, the Zeta platform is much more suitable for a DTS replacement, but that's an argument for another thread.


In my opinion most buy the CTS because of its looks. It is definitely a beautiful car. The majority in this market have no clue of what a true Cadillac is.

What is a true Cadillac? Please enlighten us. To me, a true Cadillac represents the best of American engineering, whether it's against a BMW 3-series (CTS) or Mercedes S-class (waiting...). To others, it's kitschy Americana from the mid-20th century.

The Tony Show
12-15-09, 04:59 PM
How about everyone takes a step back, a deep breath, and we resume discussing the pros and cons of American vs. Import without all the snarky comments and snippy tones of voice.

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but there's no reason for all the "pink shirt, Gay shoes, popped collar" talk, or the huge amount of implied eye rolling in the comments. Debate the issue, not the poster.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 05:08 PM
^^ :yeah:

Well, I guess I could be accused of being snarky, too. :rolleyes: Rats.

osu411yamaha
12-15-09, 05:12 PM
How about everyone takes a step back, a deep breath, and we resume discussing the pros and cons of American vs. Import without all the snarky comments and snippy tones of voice.

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but there's no reason for all the "pink shirt, Gay shoes, popped collar" talk, or the huge amount of implied eye rolling in the comments. Debate the issue, not the poster.
Yes it has definitely gotten off track. Partially my fault for comparing STS vs. CTS.

LOL at "Gay shoes". I never said that, but I admit the comment could of been misconstrued. It was really meant as a joke to how movies typically portray BMW drivers as douchebags. All in all a joke and my apologies.

ryannel2003
12-15-09, 06:10 PM
I think the Seville vs. CTS debate is silly. The CTS is really not comparable to a Seville because it is in a completely different class than the Seville STS was. The CTS caters to people who prefer a sportier car, with smaller sports seats, better handling, and a harsher ride. The Seville was a car for people who wanted something that offered a great blend of performance, luxury, comfort and sharper styling than a Deville or Deville DTS. IMO the current '05+ STS is a much better car to compare to Seville because it offers a better ride and a more comfortable interior than CTS does. I do find the styling of that car on the boring side (unless you look at an '08+) and the interior is kinda plain, but it offers a great V6 and V8 motor and is more reliable than Seville to boot.

I'm driving an '08 CTS right now and I can give you a list of what I appreciate about it over my Seville

*Great built quality
*Much better brakes
*Amazing handling
*Sport transmission (even though Seville has automatic performance shifting)
*Better gas mileage

Now this is a stripper '08 CTS with no options. It has a fugly looking black vinyl interior with fake carbon fiber trim. The seats are uncomfortable, the ride is a little harsh, there are alot of squeaks and rattles throughout, not as much passenger or storage room. Now if I were to buy a CTS, I'd want a nicely optioned model with real leather and wood trim. Great cars, but I'll probably end up with a newer STS.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 06:12 PM
Here we go again... another one of these threads....

If you do a search, these types of threads usually end up centering on a Lincoln Town Car, Jeep Wranger.. or of late... e30 BMWs.


Imagine that, I write about cars I have owned/own, that I spent plenty of time around, working on, and driving, that I know very well.

Would it be better to call all foreign cars a POS? Or base the entire population of people that drive a certain brand based off what I have seen people driving those cars wear on TV?

Oh, and if by as of late you mean over a year, then yeah.


You forgot about the Isuzu Amigo, Elias.

You forgot about the 1989 Oldsmobile, Gary. I was reading some older threads the other day and read several replies from you making your usual comments to me regarding the praise I was saying about how good my Oldsmobile was in the snow.


This is Rick's typical MO. Whatever cars we like, he'll always write hundreds if not thousands of words about why his choices are so much better and if you don't like Jeeps, BMWs or stick-shifts, you have no idea of what's fun to drive.

Who is "we"? as in "he always writes...."

I would take you, having a background in writing to be one of the last people to twist my words around... but I guess not. Where did I say my car choices are so much better? You are misunderstanding things when I say for me my vehicle choice is exactly what I want. What I wanted in an off-road vehicle, the US made. What I wanted in a sporty fun convertible, Germany made.

If you consider large 4 door, softly sprung, automatic vehicles to be fun to drive, then thats fine - that is your opinion. My opinion is that, in order to be fun to drive a vehicle must cater to the driver - and I am not talking about options, features and toys. I am talking about driver feedback, being connected to the road, being able to tell what the vehicle is doing - not isolated from the road. It is also about being in control, and unless one is in an extreme race competition, then a stick shift makes a world of a difference. Fun to me is also not being confined to the cabin of the car. When I had hardtop luxury cars, I just about always preferred to put the windows down and turn A/C off. Now that I am interested in vehicles that were offered as convertibles, it just ties it all together. Weather it is the BMW with the top down or the Jeep with the top and doors off, where ever I am driving either of them, both these vehicles scream fun to me. If you don't like them, oh well. I am up front about the short comings of them all, nor would I reccomend either of them to everyone - you have to want exactly what it is they offer. But if what you want is what they offer, then nothing else will compare.

Which goes back to the Jeep, BMW, and stick shift. For me these represent fun. I spent alot of time, over a year researching each vehicle to be darn sure it was exactly what I wanted to spend my money on. Both the Jeep and BMW are no frills, raw, fun machines. They are both noisy, ride firm, not refined and made for fun. That is my criteria for a fun vehicle. Automatically, having an automatic transmission greatly reduces the chances of me being interested in it as a fun vehicle. Is that to say it may not be fun, or someone else may not think it is fun? Of course not! Nor am I trying to tell others what a fun vehicle should be.

But in the case of the Seville, Cadillac was trying to compete against the benchmark at the times - MB, BMW, Audi etc... Yes the cars sold well, but they did not sell because of their superior driving dynamics or race-inspiried performance. In a market segment where the standard was offered in either RWD or AWD, and had an option of a manual transmission - producing a car with FWD and only an automatic was a major setback. For many people - that wasn't an issue at all. But for many other people - those that were interested in the performance aspect - it was.


Clearly, Rick, your perception of Cadillacs is stuck in the past with your former Coupe de Ville, Sedan de Ville and Brougham. FWD or not, the 92+ Seville, especially in STS form is a performance luxury sedan, as anybody who's spent time with these cars can attest. How many miles have you driven one? I'm betting none or not much more than that. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts.

Clearly, Gary, it's not.

As much as you are trying to make me out to be some anti-Cadillac/GM guy, I really like the '92+ Seville STS. I really like their exterior styling and especially the interior styling, as that car, especially the '92-'95 version, has one of the best designed interiors put in a car, IMO. I also really like the last gen Eldorado ETC, with 1995 being my year of choice. Some day I'd like to own one.

However, weather I got an STS or ETC, I would be purchasing the car as a highway cruiser or daily driver. Not as a fun car. See the difference? To me, a large, heavy, automatic, FWD luxury car is not a fun performance car. Maybe to others it's the mecca of driver meets car, but not for me. They are excellent cars in their own right, offering many options features and toys, that's no doubt. But the topic at hand was saying that these cars offer the same driving factor and perform equal to the performance luxury cars that set the benchmark.


And if you think our crappy Cadillacs are so poorly built, old-people cars that aren't any fun to drive and aren't competitive at all to your precious BMWs, why are you here? Just to annoy people?

I think I pretty much covered this up in the above. Where did I say Cadillac was crappy? Funny you mention old-people cars.... what was the average age of 90's Cadillac consumers? Even cars like the Eldorado and Seville...

And yes, I will boldy state that any 90's Cadillac was not competitive to a compareable year BMW - performance wise, and there is more to performance then 0-60 or 1/4mi acceleration. Features, options and toy wise? Sure, you can compare them all day long. If you are in this market segment looking for a feature-loaded luxo wagon, then compare away and get what you prefer. If you are in this market segment with driving performance as the main concern, then the choice is clear.

Good job on applying the word precious too. It's funny you like to throw BMW in my face - see there are BMW's I do not have interest in, just like how you throw the Jeep thing into my face, and there are many Jeep's I do not like. It just so happens to be that BMW and Jeep made the vehicles that fit exactly what I was looking for. A very close runner up to my e30 was the 1st gen Mazda Miata. Had I bought one instead, I am sure you would be saying the same thing, except inserting "Mazda" in place of "BMW" Oh, and seeing the way you post, I'm sure you play the gay card alot with that too - just to try and put down others' opinions/views.

You bought your cars based on what you wanted in a car, I did the same with mine. You wanted comfy luxury, I wanted a raw driving machine. Your choice in cars dosen't come anywhere near close to fulfilling what I was looking for in a car, tho many may say that it is in fact a performance car. Just as my old BMW probably wouldn't come anywhere close to fulfilling what you want in a luxury car as it is noisy, dosen't even have cruise (318i) or automatic climate control and has cloth (318i) manual seats - yet many may say my old BMW is a luxury car. Thats what I am getting at. For many drivers, I am sure the Seville STS with an automatic and FWD meets or exceeds their expectations for what a "drivers" car should be. For me, I don't even need to get in the drivers seat (tho I have) to know that it will not fulfill what I want in a performance car.

To finsih with your last comment, why am I here? Well, why are you here? This is the lounge - non Cadillac technical. Why do I make my posts? Why do you reply to my posts?

V-Eight
12-15-09, 06:13 PM
In my opinion most buy the CTS because of its looks. .

You're joking right? People that think that probably go for short, fat girls as well if they can't see that the CTS and DTS look WAY better. The only exception is the V

V-Eight
12-15-09, 06:17 PM
I
*Better gas mileage

Now this is a stripper '08 CTS with no options. It has a fugly looking black vinyl interior with fake carbon fiber trim. The seats are uncomfortable, the ride is a little harsh, there are alot of squeaks and rattles throughout, not as much passenger or storage room. Now if I were to buy a CTS, I'd want a nicely optioned model with real leather and wood trim. Great cars, but I'll probably end up with a newer STS.

I didn't realize you could get a Caddy with fake leather, that makes me sick

orconn
12-15-09, 06:50 PM
A good portion of Mercedes reputation for "high quality" interiors was made by the "Benztex" material used in many Mercedes of yore. Yup it was a high quality vinyl material which stood up very well ... and to be honest many, many owners and buyers believed it was "real leather." Benztex was used not only in the "C" class cars but also in many "E" class mosdels.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 06:57 PM
Good Lord, I'm not even going to bother reading all that :~blah: much less respond to it all.


Where did I say my car choices are so much better?By constantly knocking our cars and prattling on and on about yours. Our choices may be wrong for you, but not for us, so quit knocking them.


If you consider large 4 door, softly sprung, automatic vehicles to be fun to drive, then thats fine - that is your opinion. My opinion is that, in order to be fun to drive a vehicle must cater to the driver - and I am not talking about options, features and toys. I am talking about driver feedback, being connected to the road, being able to tell what the vehicle is doing - not isolated from the road.More :~blah: I consistently drive winding back roads, including an especially twisty road over a ridge that has lots of drops and rises. I have videos on YouTube driving over this road in all three of my cars, and the Seville is very connected to the road and responsive. I can drive such roads at a good clip with total confidence. And have fun doing it.

Sure, my friend's BMW Z3 was faster and more responsive when I took it on this road, as expected for a lightweight sports car But if you haven't driven a Seville over a twisting road — and you give no indication that you have — you don't know what the hell you're talking about. So kindly STFU about the alleged inferior driving dynamics of these cars.


To me, a large, heavy, automatic, FWD luxury car is not a fun performance car. Maybe to others it's the mecca of driver meets car, but not for me. :~blah: :~blah: You've made that abundantly clear ad inifinitum. You constant dismissal of the Seville as a driver's car implies that we're all wrong. We're not.


But the topic at hand was saying that these cars offer the same driving factor and perform equal to the performance luxury cars that set the benchmark.Actually the original topic in this thread was about repairs, maintenance costs, build quality and reliability.


Good job on applying the word precious too. It's funny you like to throw BMW in my face - see there are BMW's I do not have interest in, just like how you throw the Jeep thing into my face, and there are many Jeep's I do not like. It just so happens to be that BMW and Jeep made the vehicles that fit exactly what I was looking for. A very close runner up to my e30 was the 1st gen Mazda Miata. Had I bought one instead, I am sure you would be saying the same thing, except inserting "Mazda" in place of "BMW."Yet more :~blah: I like the 3-Series, and I like the Miata — a lot in fact. What I don't like is your smug attitude about how great your cars are and how un-elightened anybody who made different choices are.


I'm sure you play the card alot with that too - just to try and put down others' opinions/views.Pot, meet kettle.


Why do you reply to my posts?To pop your smug, long-winded full-of-hot-air balloon. :lildevil:

hueterm
12-15-09, 07:02 PM
When's the next Chicago meet?

:stirpot:

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:03 PM
To be honest I could care less, because its obvious you missed my point and you are getting way too serious about this. I do think though that there are plenty of American cabriolet style cars out there from the early 90's that one could have chose from as opposed to the BMW. My point though was that there may not be an exact copy of a foreign car in the domestic form, but I am sure the consumer can always find a domestic vehicle that exhibits the majority of the features they are looking for. Personally, I would sacrifice a few options to support my fellow Americans.

Psst.... you mean you couldn't care less.

And if so, they why did you bother making such comment?

Lets see what America made in the late 80's/early90's that was simply offered in a convertible, with a manual transmission - now feel free to add to the list, as I am just thinking off the top of my head...

-Caviler/Sunbird
-Mustang
-F-body
-Corvette

Now lets talk performance, so we'll get rid of the first choice.

That leaves the Fox Mustang, 3rd gen F-body and C4 Corvette.

Without going into details and reasons why, I'll simply say they are not what the e30 is about, which is what I was interested in when deciding on the e30.


The quality of materials in my Lincoln is quite poor. I have a new crack in the dash that literally came from nothing. My car is parked in a garage for winter. I came out one morning and there was a long but thin crack running vertically up the passenger side of the dash. There are tons of squeaks and rattles, most of them I have ironed out. The hinges on the center console are also pretty much shot and about 2 months ago the power trunk pull down died on me, the gears stripped out. Also, the horn button gets stuck on at times so I have had to pull the fuse for them.

Interior quality was lacking on my '96 Town Car. Not to mention the extreme amount of things that broke. I didn't mind as it was cheap and easy to work on, but still - things breaking that shouldn't be. When I bought the car at 93k miles, the entire front end was shot. Balljoints, tie rod ends, control arm busings etc.. The heater core and blend door actuator were bad, the drivers door was sagging due to worn out hinge pin bushings, by 100k miles, all 4 power window motors broke (the nylon couplings) By the time I sold it with 120k the under intake manifold heater hose was leaking. Transmission was updated with new sensors and accumulator due to poor shifting. The intake manifold was already updated before I bought the car. I have a copy of the logbook on that car.... I understand things fail over time, but the sheer amount of stuff was really laughable, I mean short of an engine/trans overall, I pretty much mechanically rebuilt that car. As I said many times, if I was the average person who takes their car to a shop, and bases their brand reputation on one car - I'd be done with Ford long before I sold it, and probably write off all American cars too. but I am not like that. In fact, I really liked that car for what it was. The problem was, the very reasons why I liked that car when I first bought it, were no longer what I wanted in a car by the end of my time with it. I actually did not enjoy the time behind the wheel at the end, it became boring and not fun.... almost like a chore. The car was great for what it was, but I was simply not into what it offered anymore.


If you have ever been to Europe, you will know, and for those who have not been...Mercedes and Audis are Taxi cabs there....No they aren't as bedecked with crap as the ones they sell here but they are CABS. BMW's are commonly used as Police vehicles. So basically Americans are suckered into buying European work vehicles by all the luxuries that they add to those cars, which probably function well day to day and have parts available as easy as we get Chevy and Caddy parts. The first car that Europeans want when they move here is "A CADILLAC" especially Russians....that is a real love affair...Then they end up with a Mercedes or two...That's another whole story.

Not all of us are suckered into these work vehicles because of luxuries.... actually, much the opposite for I.

And, I don't have anything against a service/work vehicle. Much like the Ford Panther platform here in the US, those vehicles proved to be very reliable and durable vehicles on the personal car side of things..... or is that a contradiction to previous statements of mine?

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:05 PM
Good Lord, I'm not even going to bother reading all that :~blah: much less respond to it all.

By constantly knocking our cars and prattling on and on about yours. Our choices may be wrong for you, but not for us, so quit knocking them.

More :~blah: I consistently drive winding back roads, including an especially twisty road over a ridge that has lots of drops and rises. I have videos driving over this road in all three of my cars, and the Seville is very connected to the road and responsive. I can drive those roads at a good clip with total confidence.

Sure, my friend's BMW Z3 was faster and more responsive when I took it on this road, as expected for a lightweight sports car But if you haven't driven a Seville over a twisting road and you give no indication that you have you don't know what the hell you're talking about. So kindly STFU about inferior driving dynamics.

:~blah: :~blah: You've made that abundantly clear ad inifinitum. You constant dismissal of the Seville as a driver's car implies that we're all wrong. We're not.

Actually the original topic in this thread was about repairs, maintenance costs, build quality and reliability.

Yet more :~blah: I like the 3-Series, and I like the Miata a lot in fact. What I don't like is your smug attitude about how great your cars are and how un-elightened anybody who made different choices are.

Pot, meet kettle.

To pop your smug, long-winded full-of-hot-air balloon. :lildevil:

So this whole reply can be summed up as :~blah: :~blah: :~blah:

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:07 PM
When's the next Chicago meet?

:stirpot:

Feb, I think.

Taking 2 weeks off starting next week, I'll have to see what my leave looks like, maybe finally make one of these trips.

Kev
12-15-09, 07:11 PM
You guys are bickering like a couple of little girls..... pathetic.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 07:17 PM
Well, why are you here?Because I'm a a Cadillac owner and enthusiast. And I've made lots of friends here. And I find this place entertaining.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 07:17 PM
So this whole reply can be summed up as :~blah: :~blah: :~blah:That has to be the shortest reply to a post that you've ever made. More like these, please. :lildevil:

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:20 PM
That has to be the shortest reply to a post that you've ever made. More like these, please. :lildevil:

:blah:

gdwriter
12-15-09, 07:21 PM
You guys are bickering like a couple of little girls..... pathetic.Just what this thread needs, another annoying poster with nothing useful to contribute. Yay. :rolleyes:

gdwriter
12-15-09, 07:21 PM
:blah:Thank you.

Kev
12-15-09, 07:22 PM
You're right Gary, between you and Rick you've got it covered. I'll stay out then. ;)

gdwriter
12-15-09, 07:24 PM
You're right Gary, between you and Rick you've got it covered. I'll stay out then. ;)Swell. :wave:

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:35 PM
My feelings have been hurt :(

Actually according to a book I am reading - that's not possible.

gary88
12-15-09, 07:40 PM
Fun to me is also not being confined to the cabin of the car. When I had hardtop luxury cars, I just about always preferred to put the windows down and turn A/C off. Now that I am interested in vehicles that were offered as convertibles, it just ties it all together. Weather it is the BMW with the top down or the Jeep with the top and doors off, where ever I am driving either of them, both these vehicles scream fun to me.

If you're into driving dynamics, you would know that coupes offer more torsional rigidity and less weight which = better performance :p

But really the E30 is still highly regarded in the BMW community. A quick look on bimmerforums proves this; people are swapping M5 V10s in, E36/E46 M3 engines, LS1s, and tons are daily-driving and tracking them. They're not the fastest nor the most luxurious cars, but they offer pure white knuckle fun.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 07:54 PM
If you're into driving dynamics, you would know that coupes offer more torsional rigidity and less weight which = better performance :p

But really the E30 is still highly regarded in the BMW community. A quick look on bimmerforums proves this; people are swapping M5 V10s in, E36/E46 M3 engines, LS1s, and tons are daily-driving and tracking them. They're not the fastest nor the most luxurious cars, but they offer pure white knuckle fun.

Oh yes, you are absolutely correct!

Which is why I really would like a 1991 318is. The '90 325i was my first e30, I wanted a convertible. Then while looking for a '91 318is, I found my '92 318i Convertbile. My budget was around $2,000, and the few 318is I saw started at $3,000. I was able to buy my 318i Convertible for $1,650 needing some work but lots of positives going for it, I couldn't pass it up.

Actually some have even gone as far to say the 4-door offers better torsional rigidity then the 2-door because the B-pillar is centered within the wheelbase of the car.

The convertible chassis has it's share of drawbacks, but BMW did beef up the front strut towers, A-pillar area and doors. The e36 cabrio came factory with an under chassis X-brace, the e30 did not. For $400 I can get a combo skid plate/x-brace, that according to people who have tracked both cars, said it eliminated 75% of the rigidity problems with the Cabrio chassis - and made it perform very close to a non-cabrio version without the X brace.

The Cabrios are also ~200lbs heavier, about the weight of an adult, so that dosen't really matter much. My 325i has 3.73 gears with limited slip. 1991 318is had 4.11, to help the 4cyl out with the added weight, the convertibles received 4.27 gears, that coupled with the chip that noticeably boosts mid-range and top end power, along with raising the rev limiter from 6500 to 7000RPM, really makes it a spunky little car to drive around town.

It's on the list tho, to stiffen up the chassis and also for the skid plate. The oil pans hang low. Especially on the M42, it is the lowest point on the car other then wheels/tires. It is aluminum too, so if it gets hit hard enough, it'll crack, not dent.

The 318i is just a daily driver tho, shes on factory springs, and the front/rear shocks have just been replaced with Monroe Sensatracts - nothing fancy. Pretty much brought it back to stock. The 325i is now turned into a long-term project and will be getting plenty of performance parts thrown at it.

You are right tho, the e30 isn't about going fast in a straight line, nor are they a luxury car. I like following the various engine swaps, the LSx is a growing swap because it maintains the weight/balance dynamics of the car.

Personally I really like the M20 and M42. Actually this darn M42 is addicting. I read about this happening when I was driving the M20. I'm not all about power and big engines anymore, and this little M42 is one of the most fun and enjoyable engines I've had in a daily driver. Shift under 4500RPM for relaxed driving, shift above for spirited driving. I find myself enjoying cars with engines that produce enough, but not overwhelming amounts of power.

I stay off bf.c, between e30tech, r3vlimited and M42club, I've got plenty to keep me busy. The M/S 5x engines are easiest and cheapest to swap in because it is done so using a combination of all factory parts. I have thought about doing a swap in the 325i, but the M20 runs too good for that. Maybe in the future tho. Then again I would be doing it just to do it - as I am content with the power of it as is, tho it will be getting chipped as well.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-15-09, 08:08 PM
This thread delivers more win than you can fit in the back of any car, american or import made. :)

concorso
12-15-09, 08:30 PM
Oh, really? :suspect:

4th-generation Seville:
1992 43,953
1993 37,239
1994 46,713
1995 38,931
1996 38,238
1997 42,117
Total 247,191

5th-generation Seville:
1998: 33,270

Have not been able to find numbers for the rest of the fifth generation, but since you're talking about the 90s, sales of the 4th-generation Seville are the most relevant anyway. Sure there were some geezers buying these cars, but plenty of driving enthusiasts as well. The bottom line is this was hardly a sales flop.

As with Rick, you're entitled to your opinions but not your own set of facts.Sales figures dont indicate how sporting a car is...it only indicates how many people are willing to buy it. There was absolutley nothing from Cadillac in the 90's that worked on a track at all, and was even close to being a sport sedan. I had enough miles in an 01 ESC and an 03 STS to know that they werent a car you wanted to push hard into a turn. They were very stable under normal driving conditions, but they really showed their fwd nature when pushed...

concorso
12-15-09, 08:39 PM
Well is updating the brand producing more economy CTS's? I will tell you this...I just watched my mom pay near $50k for a loaded CTS and after driving it I quickly realized it isn't half the car of my 10 years older STS. I love Cadillac and for the simple fact that it is an American brand I want to see it succeed, but its cars like the CTS that will drive it into the ground. Fortunately, cars like the XTS and CTS-V will save it.....The XTS is hit n miss so far, and until it hits the streets, noone will know what it will do for Cadillac. The CTS is the first Cadillac car made in years that consumers besides Cadillac lovers have been interested in.

The CTS is bad for Cadillac? Seriously? I mean, really, are you serious? There hasnt been a Cadillac in my memory that has garnered as much positive attention as the CTS.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:41 PM
Sales figures dont indicate how sporting a car is...it only indicates how many people are willing to buy it. There was absolutley nothing from Cadillac in the 90's that worked on a track at all, and was even close to being a sport sedan. I had enough miles in an 01 ESC and an 03 STS to know that they werent a car you wanted to push hard into a turn. They were very stable under normal driving conditions, but they really showed their fwd nature when pushed...

You disagree, you must be wrong!

Well, I agree :cool2:.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:44 PM
The CTS is bad for Cadillac? Seriously? I mean, really, are you serious? There hasnt been a Cadillac in my memory that has garnered as much positive attention as the CTS.

Just as serious as the FWD Seville having one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.

concorso
12-15-09, 08:46 PM
Why does a car have to have its own chassis to make it good in your opinion? That makes no logical sense to me. If its a good chassis what does it matter if its shared between cars.

In my opinion most buy the CTS because of its looks. It is definitely a beautiful car. The majority in this market have no clue of what a true Cadillac is. This in my opinion would be the STS and DTS at the moment. Then again that is likely what Cadillac was aiming at with this vehicle. A younger market with sportier tastes. It's not that I dont "think" the 2010 CTS is as good as my 2000 STS. It's that I know it isn't. The leather in my car is softer, the ride is better, there is more room in the cockpit, the exterior body kit is better fitting, and mine has more hp and torque. Now the cts-v with Recaros is a whole different story. It blows mine out of the water.Its these last comments that drown your points. The CTS-V, while nice, doesnt ride near as smoothly as older cadillacs. It doesnt ride as smoothly as an 05 STS with the Magnaride either, or any STS with Magnaride. On top of this, the Recaros are hard seats comparatively, and far from the super-comfy couch-like seats in older Cadillacs.
Youll get no argument about the leather, tho.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-15-09, 08:47 PM
The CTS is bad for Cadillac? Seriously? I mean, really, are you serious? There hasnt been a Cadillac in my memory that has garnered as much positive attention as the CTS.

I agree. Saying the CTS is bad for Cadillac is about the biggest bullshit statement ever. It's been in Car and Driver's Top 10 list for two consecutive years. When in the hell was the last time Cadillac ever got that notoriety? Which is especially cool considering how much C&D worships the foreign stuff.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 08:51 PM
Sales figures dont indicate how sporting a car is...it only indicates how many people are willing to buy it.And I maintain that a good number of people bought those cars because they wanted something sporty in a luxury car. Maybe not ultimate performance, but something more entertaining than a traditional American luxury car of the day. And the 92+ Seville offered a balance of luxury and sportiness that attracted a not-inconsequential number of buyers.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:52 PM
I agree. Saying the CTS is bad for Cadillac is about the biggest bullshit statement ever. It's been in Car and Driver's Top 10 list for two consecutive years. When in the hell was the last time Cadillac ever got that notoriety? Which is especially cool considering how much C&D worships the foreign stuff.

http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/you-have-angered-the-gazebo.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-15-09, 08:54 PM
And I maintain that a good number of people bought those cars because they wanted something sporty in a luxury car. Maybe not ultimate performance, but something more entertaining than a traditional American luxury car of the day. And the 92+ Seville offered a balance of luxury and sportiness that attracted a not-inconsequential number of buyers.

That sounds just like me. I love a good balance of luxury and sport. The STS was their flagship car....great levels of luxury amenities, great power and good handling all things considered. The CTS is a lot more nimble and sportier, but I'd rather have the STS because it's bigger and more luxurious.

BTW I'm referring to the 98-03 STS and all CTS's.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:54 PM
And I maintain that a good number of people bought those cars because they wanted something sporty in a luxury car. Maybe not ultimate performance, but something more entertaining than a traditional American luxury car of the day. And the 92+ Seville offered a balance of luxury and sportiness that attracted a not-inconsequential number of buyers.

Correct, now you are getting somewhere. Actually if you go back a page to two, this is what I said, in one of my replies.

But to say that balance of, well, sportiness is anything near what the benchmark was, would be a very incorrect statement. Which is what you were trying to say.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 08:55 PM
I agree. Saying the CTS is bad for Cadillac is about the biggest bullshit statement ever. It's been in Car and Driver's Top 10 list for two consecutive years.Three years in a row: 08, 09, 10.

Newsflash: the 1992 Seville STS also made C&D's 10 Best list (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/archive/1992_10best_cars-10best_cars/1992_cadillac_seville_touring_sedan_page_3).

concorso
12-15-09, 08:55 PM
I didn't realize you could get a Caddy with fake leather, that makes me sickThats common among all the luxury brands' lower end models. Im sure people would have a problem with it if they knew, but alot are not aware.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:57 PM
That sounds just like me. I love a good balance of luxury and sport. The STS was their flagship car....great levels of luxury amenities, great power and good handling all things considered. The CTS is a lot more nimble and sportier, but I'd rather have the STS because it's bigger and more luxurious.

BTW I'm referring to the 98-03 STS and all CTS's.

Right, for most drivers wanting a bit more "sport" in their Cadillac then a Fleetwood Brougham, the Seville STS was a perfect car for them.

But they were trying to use that car to compete in a market segment they were no where ready for.

Kinda like how I don't think Chad would like my e30's as a daily driver. Nothing against him or the e30, but I just don't think it's what he is looking for in a car.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 08:58 PM
Three years in a row: 08, 09, 10.

Newsflash: the 1992 Seville STS also made C&D's 10 Best list (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/archive/1992_10best_cars-10best_cars/1992_cadillac_seville_touring_sedan_page_3).

mmmmm 4.9 in STS trim. It's too bad the Eldo ETC didn't get the pretty facelift until '95.

Oh schnap! I said something positive about a Cadillac yo!

ryannel2003
12-15-09, 08:59 PM
Just as serious as the FWD Seville having one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.

Yeah i'd have to disagree with that statement. The CTS's handle much better with a conventional suspension setup, while the Seville STS makes do with a very expensive CVRSS or MagneRide setup that costs about $3000 to replace. It's a real shame Cadillac didn't make these cars RWD from the start.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 09:01 PM
The CTS is the first Cadillac car made in years that consumers besides Cadillac lovers have been interested in.Not quite. From The Indianapolis Star, May 10, 1992 (http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?makeid=8&modelid=72&year=1992&myid=3516&acode=&mode=&aff=national&section=reviews):

"The input we're getting," said Dave Watts, new-car sales manager for Lockhart Cadillac, "is we can't keep them in stock. That's a pretty good testimonial for the car."

"We're seeing younger luxury-car buyers that never have been in a Cadillac," said Dave Moll, new-car manager for Tutwiler Cadillac-Peugeot. "And that's due in part to the way it handles and performs.

"These younger professionals have been i mport buyers, and after they have been in the car they can't say enough good about it."

It already is showing signs of making conquest sales.
"We're making a lot of them," Moll said. "The Jaguar and Lexus crowd, cars like that.

"This (STS) car is bringing these people in. And frankly, they probably wouldn't be in here if we didn't have it."

concorso
12-15-09, 09:02 PM
And I maintain that a good number of people bought those cars because they wanted something sporty in a luxury car. Maybe not ultimate performance, but something more entertaining than a traditional American luxury car of the day. And the 92+ Seville offered a balance of luxury and sportiness that attracted a not-inconsequential number of buyers.Maybe Ill have to put a few miles on one of them again, with an older more experienced opinion than I used before. I just remember the steering response being quite vague, and experiencing the dreaded fwd stutter while pushing it around a fairly tight turn. I will say I loved the engine, and would have loved to see what the revised N* would have been like, if Cadillac had the money to continue development. I remember reading that Direct Injection and Cylinder Deactivation was on the table.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:03 PM
Not all FWD cars handle bad.... take the Mini Cooper as an example.

Uh-oh, does that count as more BMW praise?

I just found that chassis/suspension comment funny, as other then size/weight, they have nearly everything to do with the handling of a car, period.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:06 PM
Maybe Ill have to put a few miles on one of them again, with an older more experienced opinion than I used before. I just remember the steering response being quite vague, and experiencing the dreaded fwd stutter while pushing it around a fairly tight turn. I will say I loved the engine, and would have loved to see what the revised N* would have been like, if Cadillac had the money to continue development. I remember reading that Direct Injection and Cylinder Deactivation was on the table.

That was part of the Northstar problem, it was a very high performance engine, but put in cars that were not - as such it was hardly used that way. They would develop various problems because of being babied so much, the cold start knock being one of them.

gary88
12-15-09, 09:11 PM
Yeah i'd have to disagree with that statement. The CTS's handle much better with a conventional suspension setup, while the Seville STS makes do with a very expensive CVRSS or MagneRide setup that costs about $3000 to replace. It's a real shame Cadillac didn't make these cars RWD from the start.

Bolded for truth. You can only put so much torque at the front wheels before things start to get messy.

One exception is the Ford Focus RS. It's FWD yet is still very impressive on a track largely in part to it's magical torque biasing LSD and suspension setup. Why don't we ever get the really cool Fords :(

concorso
12-15-09, 09:11 PM
Just as serious as the FWD Seville having one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.Sometimes I wonder if theyve ever pushed a car, a real sport sedan. The tossability of an E30 or practically any Lotus is quite eye opening to what a street car is capable of.

But the counter arguement to that is just as valid. How many people really care about spectacular handling. For most drivers, I suspect a car just needs to handle well in daily driving.

concorso
12-15-09, 09:14 PM
Not all FWD cars handle bad.... take the Mini Cooper as an example.
Older Acura Integra GSR's were very good as well. Small fwd cars can be quite fun...to a point.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 09:16 PM
But to say that balance of, well, sportiness is anything near what the benchmark was, would be a very incorrect statement. Which is what you were trying to say.Your opinion. Just as you've said repeatedly that your cars are the best fit for what you want them to do, I've found the Seville is the best fit for me.

The original focus of this thread was maintenance and repair costs, which as we've covered already tend to be higher on luxury cars and can be very high on BMWs and Mercedes especially. Maintenance on a Cadillac is not cheap, but as shown in the examples I posted somewhere on page one, it's not as high as many imports. Hell, the Honda Accord V6 was in German-car territory.

While I like some BMWs, the cost of parts and repairs for a used one in my price range is more than I'd want to pay. So not only do I have to balance preferences for luxury vs. sportiness, the cost of ownership is also a factor.

I have two friends who own or have owned BMWs, and they both have said the very tight tolerances on BMWs can become a maintenance issue. On the suspension system, for example, those super-tight tolerances may be what gives a BMW an edge in handling, but those parts can easily be thrown out of whack on crummy roads, meaning they need more frequent adjustments. As with other aspects of performance, this is a trade off.

When looking at the overall balance of performance, luxury and cost of ownership, I find the Seville is competitive with a BMW 5-Series or Mercedes-Benz E Class. That is my opinion, and you're welcome to disagree, which I'm sure you do. But that does not make me wrong.

gdwriter
12-15-09, 09:27 PM
Maybe Ill have to put a few miles on one of them again, with an older more experienced opinion than I used before. I just remember the steering response being quite vague, and experiencing the dreaded fwd stutter while pushing it around a fairly tight turn.Steering feel is one of those areas that BMW does better than anybody. After the wonderful torque of the straight six, that incredibly direct steering in my friend's Z3 was my favorite part of driving it over fun roads. Hell, I even enjoyed shifting, Rick.

I think the 98+ Seville had less of a torque steer problem than the 92-97 models. Push it hard enough, and yes the front end will plow, but that's common with all but the highest performance cars. Automakers typically engineer understeer at the limit as a safety factor.

There are two routes I can take back and forth to work. One is pretty much a straight shot on a state highway, and the other is a county road with more twists and turns, hills and dips. Guess which one I'm going to take tonight?

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:32 PM
Your opinion. Just as you've said repeatedly that your cars are the best fit for what you want them to do, I've found the Seville is the best fit for me.

The original focus of this thread was maintenance and repair costs, which as we've covered already tend to be higher on luxury cars and can be very high on BMWs and Mercedes especially. Maintenance on a Cadillac is not cheap, but as shown in the examples I posted somewhere on page one, it's not as high as many imports. Hell, the Honda Accord V6 was in German-car territory.

While I like some BMWs, the cost of parts and repairs for a used one in my price range is more than I'd want to pay. So not only do I have to balance preferences for luxury vs. sportiness, the cost of ownership is also a factor.

I have two friends who own or have owned BMWs, and they both have said the very tight tolerances on BMWs can become a maintenance issue. On the suspension system, for example, those super-tight tolerances may be what gives a BMW an edge in handling, but those parts can easily be thrown out of whack on crummy roads, meaning they need more frequent adjustments. As with other aspects of performance, this is a trade off.

When looking at the overall balance of performance, luxury and cost of ownership, I find the Seville is competitive with a BMW 5-Series or Mercedes-Benz E Class. That is my opinion, and you're welcome to disagree, which I'm sure you do. But that does not make me wrong.

Wow. Gary, I am impressed, you make a very decent reply without the usual Rick bashing.

With that said.... you just summed up what I was saying in my blah blah posts.

For you, the Seville fulfills the "sporty" or "performance" part of a luxury car. All I was saying was that for me, and those drivers that are perhaps a bit more into the "sport" then "comfort" side of things, it does not. That is perfectly fine, as I am sure the Seville is a great handling car for what it is in normal situations. I drove a '98 STS and was very impressed with it, at the time it wasn't what I was looking for though (an old school American luxury car) and currently it isn't what I am looking for (no frills driving machine), but like I said in the blah blah post, I like them alot and can see myself owning one as a highway cruiser or daily driver.

I am personally not sure shich tight tolerance issues your friends are speaking of - I haven't heard of anything like that on the e30. Then again, stock the e30's only adjustable steering/suspension parameter is toe - just like the Jeep. According to Autocheck, my '92 318iC was involved in 2 accidents, and had a salvage title at one point (totaled?) Yet it is still within spec and drives/handles very tight. This was back in '95 or so, only 30k and in NJ, then the car came to GA. It's made it this long, so it's not a factor to me. I can see previous damage to the radiator support and front crossmember, the oil pan has a 1995 stamp, the radiator has been replaced at one point, and the hood, front bumper and left fender have BMW DOT stickers in place of the VIN stickers. I'm not kind to the car either, it sees 7000RPM everyday (redline is 6500RPM) take turns sideways when I feel like it and hit rail road crossings at speed. Then again the e30 is very old school in design compared to new BMW's, my first hand experience with BMW as a whole goes no further then the e30. The suspension on the e30 is nothing radical either, MacPherson struts up front, trailing arms in the back, all independent. It's just the way it is all put together and made to work - that it works so well.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-15-09, 09:38 PM
Not all FWD cars handle bad.... take the Mini Cooper as an example.

Mini Cooper, Acura Integra GSX, Type-R, Honda Prelude, GTi etc etc. Lots of good handling, nimble FWD cars out there. The Cooper S I drove earlier this year was freakishly nimble, almost twitchy, atleast to me.


Kinda like how I don't think Chad would like my e30's as a daily driver. Nothing against him or the e30, but I just don't think it's what he is looking for in a car.

You're probably right. Too small for me. I'd like an E34 though, those are a BMW from that era that I could live with.

gary88
12-15-09, 09:43 PM
Then again the e30 is very old school in design compared to new BMW's, my first hand experience with BMW as a whole goes no further then the e30.

https://www.bmwusa.com/secured/content/forms/50testdrive.aspx?enc=gkLM04PyXsElpyRVVaZPEQ==

Then go test drive a new one and get a $50 gas card for free http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/roundel.gif

gdwriter
12-15-09, 09:45 PM
My friend at work has an immaculate '85 5-Series. My other friend had a '93 3-Series, which I've driven, although that was several years ago. I helped him swap out the springs to lower the car, and that's when he was talking about the tight tolerances on the suspension (and he said the engine was like that, too).

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:49 PM
Mini Cooper, Acura Integra GSX, Type-R, Honda Prelude, GTi etc etc. Lots of good handling, nimble FWD cars out there. The Cooper S I drove earlier this year was freakishly nimble, almost twitchy, atleast to me.

A Mini Cooper S is a major player in my next "new" car purchase... many years down the road. Actually it would be between that and a 135i convertible, if I was still looking for a sporty fun to drive car.

Oddly though, the Mini is one of the very few cars I prefer as a hardtop over a convertible.... I don't think I'd want the rag top version, plus the hard top looks much better, and as long as I've got atleast one of the e30 cabrios, that would cover my sporty convertible itch.

As for the e30, I just think it is too raw for what you like. There is minimal sound deadening insulation, and with the convertible, forget it, between engine and wind noise - it's loud. It's got some options even standard like central locking, power windows/mirros and (one position) intermitent wipers, but the 318i dosen't have cruise control. Finally after swapping the entire top/frame assembly from one car to the other, there are no leaks - well, in heavy rain (rained for 2 days non stop) it leaks on the drivers side when stopped a tad. It used to be a pool inside. I don't even want to think about getting the (used to be white cars) top set correctly on the red car. It is not a roomy car tho has plenty of legroom, actually somewhat confined - which adds to the sporty feeling, the entire dash is made for the driver. Everything from getting in the car, starting it and driving it tells you that this was from a time when BMW wasn't trying to produce the most fancy luxury car, but was making a no frills "ultimate driving machine" I could go on about the short comings of the e30 as a luxury car.... but thats because it isn't one.

I agree, from this era, e34 sounds like you, and you are good, it's still got the sweet forward-opening hood.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 09:56 PM
https://www.bmwusa.com/secured/content/forms/50testdrive.aspx?enc=gkLM04PyXsElpyRVVaZPEQ==

Then go test drive a new one and get a $50 gas card for free http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/roundel.gif

Oh man, I want to drive a 135i, manual trans, convertible so bad! I thought about a test drive, but I am so tired of the dealer and test drive thing, I know they would want to bring me inside to "talk numbers" when I am clearly not interested in buying the car at this time.

Tho that comment about first hand and BMW was more to do with the mechanics and maintenace side of things.

The Bangle styling of the 1-series has really grown on me - to the point that I like it - alot. The "flame surfacing" is very neat. The blue looks very pretty.... but man, I dunno if I could pass up red, simply because Noelle is red and having them side by side, both red and convertible would be really neat.

Check this out for side by side pics of an e30 and 1-series

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3708759&page=1

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 10:02 PM
My friend at work has an immaculate '85 5-Series. My other friend had a '93 3-Series, which I've driven, although that was several years ago. I helped him swap out the springs to lower the car, and that's when he was talking about the tight tolerances on the suspension (and he said the engine was like that, too).

That '85 sounds really nice.

The '93 3-series is an e36. They were considerably more refined then the e30, but as such, lost alot of the raw and pure driving feel. Plus they got bigger and heavier. I know the suspension, particulary the rear suspension was updated, I'm not sure if it is adjustable or not tho. The same is said about the e46, it was further refined, and as such further lost some of the driving feel/feedback.

Much like any car of this vintage today, there is a certain person required to like them. Someone may get into my e30 and think it's a cheap loud old POS, and thats fine. I had to deal with that alot with the old Caddys I had - but I like them. I can't explain the level of fun and joy behind the wheel they bring tho.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-15-09, 10:06 PM
I really like the E46. They had that nice late '90s "clean cut" BMW look to them, just like the E38 and E39 did, and they had a real nice interior design and apparently just drove amazing too.

Night Wolf
12-15-09, 10:17 PM
I really like the E46. They had that nice late '90s "clean cut" BMW look to them, just like the E38 and E39 did, and they had a real nice interior design and apparently just drove amazing too.

No doubt! They are one of the best looking, proportional cars period, IMO.

The e30 sites I spend time on - are only e30's, well except for M42club, which is e30 and e36. There is a strong passion for them over other BMW's. It seems like a portion of the negative attention to the e36 is because it was simply what replaced the e30. Many e30 folks are not that interested in an e36, and less so in the e46 - because many share the same want of a no-frills, raw, driving machine, which was lost in the latter generations.

Atleast for me, I'm not sure if it is really what I would want, tho by the time I'd get one, maybe the vibe would change. I have often wondered which I would prefer between an e46 convertible and a 1-series convertible, I guess I'd have to drive both to make a judgement.

Speaking of the 1-series, I also wonder if I'd be happy with the 128i, same 3.0L I6, but no twin turbo. Seeing as how it'd already be a good bit faster then either of my e30's, I may be content with the NA version. Atleast I'd get to keep my econometer!

gdwriter
12-15-09, 11:25 PM
First off, I can't believe I'm putting this much time and effort into making a point, but I can't help enjoying a vigorous debate.

I took the twisty back road home tonight instead of 99W, my usual route:

http://www.gdwriter.com/full_route.jpg

It was raining hard, and not only were the roads slick, visibility was subpar, so I did not drive flat out. But I did drive in a spirited fashion taking a more critical look at the Seville's driving dynamics.

Because of the slick roads, I couldn't really make a determination about torque steer. The one opportunity I had to do a full-throttle start, I spun the tires and traction control kicked in. It did feel like there was a little torque steer, but that may have been due to the road conditions. Nor have I have experienced it in normal driving. I don't do full-throttle starts as a rule, but there are plenty of times when I accelerate briskly.

On both the sweeping turns and tighter ones, I got good feedback from the steering as the cornering forces built up. Transient response in the S curves was good as well. The steering isn't in the same league as BMW, but nobody is. BMW has some magic formula for steering that no other manufacturer has figured out.

The highlight of this route is a pair of sweeping S curves:

http://www.gdwriter.com/S_curves.jpg

These curves are signed at 30 MPH, and I took them at 45 easily, without plowing or going into the other lane. The last curve is the tightest and dips down on entry and rises back up on exit (I think on a race course it's called a decreasing radius turn, but I could be wrong). I probably slowed to 40 here before accelerating out.

There's also a 1 1/2 mile stretch where there are six 90 turns. This is farmland, so I'm assuming the multiple turns are due to right of way:

http://www.gdwriter.com/90_degree_turns.jpg

I think the first one is signed at 25 MPH (I took it at 40), and the rest are all 20 MPH, and I probably took them at 25-30. Here is where you'd really expect the FWD understeer to show up, but an '01 Seville is not a '73 Eldorado. It never plowed, nor did the front end wash out. Also, the transmission downshifted crisply as I accelerated again.

The difference I noticed most in the 90 turns was I couldn't really start to accelerate until I was almost out of the turn. When I've taken Betty down this road, I can definitely notice the difference RWD makes because I can start accelerating sooner. The RWD makes Betty feel more balanced going through tight turns.

Keep in mind, my Seville is an SLS, and the suspension on the STS is firmer and more biased toward handling. Since I've not driven an STS on these roads, I can't judge the difference between them.

Also, you can't discount the Northstar as a prime element in this car's performance portfolio. The smooth, effortless and prodigious thrust of this engine is very addicting.

Finally, one last interesting note. I had bought a new coffeemaker for my office yesterday and put the old one in the trunk, using the box the new one came in. When I went to take it out after I got home, it was exactly where I put it. Despite taking tight corners at faster-than-posted speeds, it neither slid around or tipped over.

An interesting exercise. I'll have to pay closer attention to the handling dynamics the next time I take my favorite roller coaster road.

And if you're really that interested (and I wouldn't blame anyone who isn't), here's one of those videos I was talking about earlier. It's on part of this route, albeit in the opposite direction. Ignore the noise that sounds like a jet engine spooling up; that was front a new set of tires that I took back for a different set the next day:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUbYbDQ62A

The stretch of 90 turns starts at ~1:56 and the S curves are at ~3:45. For some reason, though, on the video it looks like I'm driving slower than I was tonight. Maybe I was.

hueterm
12-15-09, 11:26 PM
I prefer the E30 over the 1 (especially an E30 coupe)...that was THE car when I was in high school..........

gdwriter
12-15-09, 11:32 PM
And if you're really hard up for entertainment tonight :rofl:, here are the videos of my favorite roller coaster road, both ways;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-fRlxFcLU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90DVoR6QApo

I don't feel like going to the trouble to make the maps again, so if you're that interested, go to Google Maps and enter "Vitae Springs Rd., Salem, OR" in the Search box. The nearly 180 turn from River Rd. to Orville Rd., and the trip ends at Skyline Dr.

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 01:50 AM
I prefer the E30 over the 1 (especially an E30 coupe)...that was THE car when I was in high school..........

Thats what kept on my mind... the main appeal to the 1-series is the fact that it is "new" and I don't mean that I am into new cars... but that in 10 years, a current 1-series will then be used and cheap to buy. But I just like the e30 too much to leave it now, so I am getting all my fun out of them. Maybe some day in the future I'll grow tired of them....maybe. The extra toys and power of the 1-series don't even appeal to me.

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 01:58 AM
And if you're really hard up for entertainment tonight :rofl:, here are the videos of my favorite roller coaster road, both ways;

YouTube- 2001 Seville over roller-coaster road -- Independence to Salem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-fRlxFcLU)

YouTube- 2001 Seville over roller-coaster road -- Salem to Independence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90DVoR6QApo)

I don't feel like going to the trouble to make the maps again, so if you're that interested, go to Google Maps and enter "Vitae Springs Rd., Salem, OR" in the Search box. The nearly 180 turn from River Rd. to Orville Rd., and the trip ends at Skyline Dr.

I just watched the videos - that looks to be a very nice driving road.

It dosen't seem like you were going anywhere near fast enough to really experience the limitations of FWD.

But this is the part you are probably going to come back with snarky remarks on:

That video summed up what I was saying, atleast for me about the fun levels in taking such a car around the twisties. I know videos make things look different then they really are, but that just looked boring, from a performance stand point. The shifting, the running an engine to redline etc... That video reminded me of driving my Lincoln Town Car on my favorite driving road, which is one of the reasons I no longer own that car.

osu411yamaha
12-16-09, 01:59 AM
Single man are you Rick? I hope you don't bore your dinner dates with similar long drawn out explanations of how they should choose the filet over the strip. You do realize that this is a forum and when you write novels within it people usually just either end up skimming over it or not reading it at all? :lame:Keep it short and sweet.

This thread has gotten quite boring now that Rick has consumed every page. I do give myself a pat on the back, however. My original comments pulled this thread from the grave and jump started it with CPR.

Last thing I will say is God Bless America, God Bless American Workers, and Happy Holi.....I mean MERRY CHRISTMAS. Never have I been politically correct. Why start now.
:patriot::usflag::

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 02:10 AM
Single man are you Rick? I hope you don't bore your dinner dates with similar long drawn out explanations of how they should choose the filet over the strip. You do realize that this is a forum and when you write novels within it people usually just either end up skimming over it or not reading it at all? :lame:Keep it short and sweet.

This thread has gotten quite boring now that Rick has consumed every page. I do give myself a pat on the back, however. My original comments pulled this thread from the grave and jump started it with CPR.

Last thing I will say is God Bless America, God Bless American Workers, and Happy Holi.....I mean MERRY CHRISTMAS. Never have I been politically correct. Why start now.
:patriot::usflag::

You still failed to answer my questions from my original replies to you...

I find your blanket comments that consumed these pages as well to be rather enjoyable, but I am still waiting on a reply... Still not sure if I "sold out" to the foreigners or not...

But thank you for keeping me on your mind - a blue collared American worker :thumbsup:

You seem to be the master of your own short and to the point posts. So far we have learned that:

1) All imports are a POS
2) The CTS is the worst thing ever to happen to Cadillac
3) The FWD Seville has one of the best chassis and suspensions ever put on a car.

Oh and no worries about long drawn out conversations over dinner, see I drive one of them there BM-Dubya's, you know, the cars that guys only drive to pick up chicks. That, along with my pink polo, popped collar and aviator sunglasses means the girls usually have to fight over me as my BMW only sits 3 others. They usually just say your place or mine without ever wanting to go to dinner. It's one of those BMW things - you wouldn't understand.

Jesda
12-16-09, 02:55 AM
I love your driving videos, Gary. I blow them up full screen and put my hands in the air like I'm steering.

On an episode of Top Gear a few years ago, Jeremy reviewed and had a lot of nice things to say about the Seville, especially the engine.

gdwriter
12-16-09, 03:37 AM
I just watched the videos - that looks to be a very nice driving road.

It dosen't seem like you were going anywhere near fast enough to really experience the limitations of FWD.

But this is the part you are probably going to come back with snarky remarks on:

That video summed up what I was saying, atleast for me about the fun levels in taking such a car around the twisties. I know videos make things look different then they really are, but that just looked boring, from a performance stand point. The shifting, the running an engine to redline etc... That video reminded me of driving my Lincoln Town Car on my favorite driving road, which is one of the reasons I no longer own that car.No snark this time. When I looked at the videos again tonight, it does seem like I'm driving slower than I actually am.

Whether it's FWD or RWD, when it's a 20 MPH 90 turn, if you try taking it considerably faster, you're going to end up in a ditch. I much prefer the more sweeping S curves further down that road. Those are fun. With a well-calibrated automatic and a strong V8, you can easily power out of them. When I drove through those curves tonight, it was a very satisfying feeling as the car pulled through.

The roller coaster road is narrow and bumpy in spots, but the turns and ups and downs make it fun. Here again, if you're going too fast and being stupid, you can easily get yourself into trouble, BMW or not. But you can drive it briskly and have a good time.

And when you have a powerful V8, you don't always have to run it to redline to blow past those pokey drivers.

OK, so that was a little snarky. Oops. :rolleyes:

V-Eight
12-16-09, 03:47 AM
Psst.... you mean you couldn't care less.

And if so, they why did you bother making such comment?

Lets see what America made in the late 80's/early90's that was simply offered in a convertible, with a manual transmission - now feel free to add to the list, as I am just thinking off the top of my head...

-Caviler/Sunbird
-Mustang
-F-body
-Corvette

Now lets talk performance, so we'll get rid of the first choice.

That leaves the Fox Mustang, 3rd gen F-body and C4 Corvette.

Without going into details and reasons why, I'll simply say they are not what the e30 is about, which is what I was interested in when deciding on the e30.



I

I dunno, I'd say that these cars have exactly what you were looking for these days. Not necessarily the most comfortable but a hell of a lot of fun to drive. Especially the Corvette?

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 07:45 AM
No snark this time. When I looked at the videos again tonight, it does seem like I'm driving slower than I actually am.

Whether it's FWD or RWD, when it's a 20 MPH 90 turn, if you try taking it considerably faster, you're going to end up in a ditch. I much prefer the more sweeping S curves further down that road. Those are fun. With a well-calibrated automatic and a strong V8, you can easily power out of them. When I drove through those curves tonight, it was a very satisfying feeling as the car pulled through.

The roller coaster road is narrow and bumpy in spots, but the turns and ups and downs make it fun. Here again, if you're going too fast and being stupid, you can easily get yourself into trouble, BMW or not. But you can drive it briskly and have a good time.

And when you have a powerful V8, you don't always have to run it to redline to blow past those pokey drivers.

OK, so that was a little snarky. Oops. :rolleyes:

Nah - ya did good, not too snarky :)

I think our driving styles are very different, I would say yours is safer, but that would further explain what we both consider to be well handling/driving cars.

I've had enough V8's to know they are fine just idling along, but to me that ups part of the fun. With my low powerd 4cyl car, I can flog the thing like crazy, while staying to somewhat reasonable speeds.

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 08:20 AM
I dunno, I'd say that these cars have exactly what you were looking for these days. Not necessarily the most comfortable but a hell of a lot of fun to drive. Especially the Corvette?

I am not saying these are bad cars at all, I am simply saying they are not what I was looking for in a car - no doubt they are very fun tho.

Firstly, they are just too big. As for the f-body and mustang, they have a solid rear axle.

The Corvette is in an entirely different category and is entry level high end/"exotic" the e30 is just a regular car. Plus, it is still a pretty big car. Also, where can one find any Corvette for under $2000 that needs less then $1000 to be a reliable daily driver?

All these cars have V8's in common - and I am not into them like I once was, I now much prefer spunky, fee revving smaller engines - atleast for these types of cars. More power will do two main things, accelerate faster and have a higher too speed, but I am already very content with the current acceleration of the cars, and they already go much faster then I should be going on public roads.

The car that was running a close second was the Miata. Today, America does, or did have a car that was what I wanted - Solstice/Sky.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-16-09, 10:49 AM
Gary, you are gonna love driving the Lincoln when you come in Feb. Its a large, heavy car but hot damn can it take a turn. The day I bought it I freaked out my friend that owns a built '88 IROC by doing some extremely rapid lane changes at about 75 mph. It has a very cool power band that makes me smile every time. It doesn't have a lot of torque but it has a lot of top end. Off the line it will only chirp the tires but as you near the top end of the power band you get pressed harder and harder into the seat and you feel the rear end start to get squirrely as the tires begin to lose grip. Shift it to second gear and the rear end will pop out just a little and then get right back on track and you start the whole thing over again. :D

gdwriter
12-16-09, 02:37 PM
Sound like fun, JD. Maybe we can find an empty parking lot to do doughnuts.

I also hope to ride in -- or better yet drive -- Jimmy's 09 CTS.

Vinsanity
12-16-09, 03:46 PM
I dunno, I'd say that these cars have exactly what you were looking for these days. Not necessarily the most comfortable but a hell of a lot of fun to drive. Especially the Corvette?

Sorry, but these cars in the 80's and early 90's just didn't have the quality of the 3-series BMW from that era. Convertible J-body? Bitch please.

Night Wolf
12-16-09, 04:28 PM
It's not just the quality... but it's a whole different type of car.

The F-body and Camaro are muscle cars. I did not want a muscle car. The Corvette, I suppose would be the closest match, but again, it's a whole different type of car.

I drove a 2001 Mustang GT for a weekend. It was a 5spd, 70k, CAI, nice exhaust, lowered on Eibach springs and upgraded brakes. It sounded epic and would pull at any RPM in the rev band. I *could* picture myself owning one.... but it is not what I was looking for when shopping for the e30, nor is it what I am interested in now.

It handled like a pig. I mean, it was like I literally had to wrestle with the car to make any turns at speed - it just didn't want to make turns. Despite being only less then 300lbs heavier then my e30 cabrio, the whole car felt heavy and bulky, not very tossable. It's not that it was a bad car, or even a bad performing car overall - but it wasn't what I wanted. The driving dynamics of my old e30 were far superior, it was night and day difference. If you want to accelerate fast tho - old BMW's are not for you. They are momentum cars, using their excellent handling around turns to maintain speed - which surprisngly is why old BMW's put out poor 0-60 and 1/4mi times, and if judging by just those items, then it is also a poor choice of cars.

I know F-bodys and Mustangs can be built up to handle well, and I know you can throw enough money at it to get it to produce better numbers on paper then a BMW. But it's not about numbers to me - I don't give a darn about numbers, which is why I am happy with my low powered 4cyl. It's all about the driver feel and experience when I get behind the wheel, and what the car offers in return.

Atleast to me, of course. It is just my thoughts and opinion on the subject.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-16-09, 07:27 PM
It has a very cool power band that makes me smile every time. It doesn't have a lot of torque but it has a lot of top end. Off the line it will only chirp the tires but as you near the top end of the power band you get pressed harder and harder into the seat and you feel the rear end start to get squirrely as the tires begin to lose grip. Shift it to second gear and the rear end will pop out just a little and then get right back on track and you start the whole thing over again. :D

Wow, that sounds a lot like the Mark VIII's DOHC 4.6, not your typical OHV 302.

V-Eight
12-16-09, 10:19 PM
Bitch please.

Don't call me a bitch.


It's not just the quality... but it's a whole different type of car.

The F-body and Camaro are muscle cars. I did not want a muscle car. The Corvette, I suppose would be the closest match, but again, it's a whole different type of car.


.

Yeah, I was just thinking about it from the 'fun coupes' point of view rather that what you were looking for. Mostly the Corvette, because its small handles great and has most of power. But, I think I have a better understanding of why you enjoy those BMWs so much now though. :thumbsup:

Jesda
12-17-09, 12:05 AM
I'm surprised by how much of the 92-97 Seville is shared with the C4 Corvette, but thats for another thread.

orconn
12-17-09, 12:13 AM
I'm surprised by how much of the 92-97 Seville is shared with the C4 Corvette, but thats for another thread.

Enlighten us, Sir Jesda!

Jesda
12-17-09, 12:56 AM
Transverse leaf spring design in the rear (used in many other GM cars, but softer)
Bose Gold amplifiers, tuner modules, and speakers
Wire harnesses and connectors
Accessory motors

I dont believe the part numbers match up though. For example, the Bose speaker assembly is shaped differently outside but when you open it up you see the same amp and same speaker. Same goes for accessories and modules.

There's probably more, and some of it is spread to other GM brands as well. The more I dig into this car, the more I find.

Night Wolf
12-17-09, 05:52 PM
my ex-gf's '92 Buick Regal (W-body) had that transverse mono leaf spring rear suspension..... personally it's not a design I am fond of.

GM liked to parts bin alot of stuff... I mean, heck, if an automatic transmission shift knob is good enough in a Cavalier, then it's good enough for the Corvette!

Night Wolf
12-17-09, 07:44 PM
Alright, so for what it's worth, I decided to ziptie my digital camera to the passenger seat headrest and take some (maybe controversial) footage of the e30 on my favorite local driving road yesterday. Had to wait 8 hours for the videos to upload tho.

The road is a 20-miles stretch thru mostly farm land between two small towns. It is a 55-mph limit with lots of fun turns, straights and some minor hills. It isn't traveled much, and I usually drive on it late at night or other less crowded times. This was around 5:00PM or so and as such had more vehicle volume than normal. I drive there, get to the other town, then turn back.

As for the car, well, I had the radio off to try and get the sounds of the car in the videos, but pretty much all you hear in the video is wind noise (this car has alot of it) In person some of the wind noise is canceled out by the engine noise, which when it is just me in the car are both canceled out by the sound system. Speaking of the radio - it is just laying in there and not mounted. I have the parts, but it'll have to be removed when I retrofit the full on-board computer in it, so I'll wait. The glove box hinge and latch is broken - looks like another forceful removal.

On the initial acceleration, it was not wide open in first, but it was in 2nd,

BMW claimed this engine to put out 134hp and 128tq, back in 1991. Take away whatever 17-years and ~170k miles does to an engine, then add the claimed +15hp/tq from the chip, and your guess is as good as mine as to current engine power.

With that said, after driving this car, I really have to ask myself, what would the purpose of a more powerful engine be? I already have a blast driving this thing in town, it can reach and maintain much higher speeds then I should be driving on a twisty road, and ditto for it's top speed - it was still pulling at a gps-verified 122 when I let off.

As for the camera, obviosuly it was focused inside the car, I wanted to try and get the shifter action - but it dosen't look cool like in the movies. Outside of the car is over exposed, I'll have to try again and get the camera pointed more towards outside.

If you turn the audio up, you can hear the engine. It makes a distinctive howl between 6500-7000RPM that lets you know it's a BMW.... but you really can't hear it that well in the videos. Yeah, I am in the habit of double clutching when downshifting, all the time.

8LOFqpXze94

a1hEZAyXD_Q

Perhaps these videos will help to add insight as to my choice of car, and why others just will not cut it for me.

Rodya234
12-17-09, 07:58 PM
Transverse leaf spring design in the rear (used in many other GM cars, but softer)
Bose Gold amplifiers, tuner modules, and speakers
Wire harnesses and connectors
Accessory motors


The C-body Deville has quite a bit in common with other GM cars as well.

Computer Command Ride (standard in '93) was the FX3 system from the Corvette, except in the Cadillac it was speed sensitive, while the Vette had a knob.

The brakes (front and rear) are the same as the base Camaro.

The shocks from that era's Bonneville or Roadmaster will fit. (which allows for the installation of Bilsteins :))


It's not a GM car, but the 4.9L is so similar on paper to the 5.0L V8 (which actually rounds to 4.9) out of the Mustang that it's hard to tell who copied who.