: Japan's "cash for clunkers": No US cars allowed



The Tony Show
12-11-09, 02:14 PM
The U.S. Car Allowance Rebate System (a.k.a. 'cash-for-clunkers') program was a short-term boon for automakers participating in our market. Sales went up, inventory went down and nearly 700,000 vehicles that would likely have otherwise ended up on used car lots were destroyed. And since the U.S. is essentially a free market where automakers around the globe are allowed to participate, Japanese and European automakers benefited from the program as well. In fact, Japanese automakers fared even better than their U.S. competitors, as Toyota, Honda and Nissan are said to have surpassed their market share with the program. A reported 319,000 of the 677,000 vehicles sold via cash-for-clunkers were from Japanese companies. But while the U.S. C4C program took place in a free market where everybody is able to participate, critics are complaining that the new Japanese program is anything but equal opportunity.

Japan is considered by many to be the world's most insular auto market, and its $3.7 billion government clunker program makes U.S. autos ineligible for government assistance. According to The Detroit News, the program, which the Japanese government is using to spur sales (which are down 17 percent versus 2008 levels), provides cash rebates of up to $2,830 for customers who turn in vehicles 13 years or older. Car buyers who don't turn in a vehicle can still get over $1,100 toward the purchase of a new vehicle. An estimated 87 percent of all Japanese vehicles are eligible for the program, while zero vehicles from General Motors, Ford and Chrysler will be eligible.


In a nutshell:

Dear America,

Thanks for the billions of dollars you borrowed from China and then handed out toward cars- that really helped us to expand our market share, sales and profits inside your country. We know it'll take you a long time to repay it and all, but it was a nice shot in the arm to our bottom lines. In return for this generosity and assistance in helping us sell our cars in your country, kindly stay the hell out of ours with your cars.

Sincerely,

Japan



Read about it here (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/11/report-detroit-three-call-japans-cash-for-clunkers-program-unf/)

V-Eight
12-11-09, 02:24 PM
Fu** 'em

TrUcKeR
12-11-09, 02:28 PM
I think they call it Crash For Crunkahs.

Raff out roud.

Seriously, though, the US C4C program should have been limited to Big 3 auto sales only. F*ckin Obama.

___________________
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Jesda
12-11-09, 04:03 PM
Japan's endless protectionism hasn't done them any good. They're still in a recession, the same one dating back to the early 90s. They've only gotten by, economically, because of their advanced engineering and manufacturing. Korea is rapidly chipping away at their dominance.

I hope the grave they're digging themselves is warm.

orconn
12-11-09, 04:13 PM
Back in the days I lived in Japan cars that were 3 (I think) years old or older had to be destroyed and there was a huge tax on all cars, but humongus one a any foreign car. Why the U.S. has seen fit to allow Japan its' outrageous tariff and other restrictions while permitting Japanese companies free access to our markets is just another example of "theory" (free markets) holding sway over the reality of the real world. The practice and objective of "Deregulation" of the financial was another. No one party has been responsible, a pox on both the Parties!

MisterBlue
12-11-09, 05:54 PM
In my 50 years of driving and owning about 30 vehicles, I've never bought or owned a foreign car. Of course, even if a decent car was made by the Al-Qaeda, there'd be some "thoughtless Americans" lining up to buy.

Vinsanity
12-11-09, 06:07 PM
Well, it's called economic freedom, folks. I appreciate having the option of buying any car I want (well, almost any car...stupid CAFE), and it sucks for the Japanese consumers that their choices are somewhat more restricted.

Besides, cash for clunkers was a stupid stupid idea anyways. I would rather have used my tax dollars as TP instead of using it to subsidize financially irresponsible car purchases made by people who don't have the money to pay for them, while punishing more responsible shoppers who would have preferred to buy an old SUV or work truck outright instead of financing a new vehicle.

Ranger
12-11-09, 06:13 PM
And people wonder why I refuse to buy a Japanese car.

codewize
12-11-09, 10:09 PM
Absolutely, I said that from the beginning. What the hell good did it do anyone in this country to pay people to buy imports.

If our government every gets it's head out of it's ass we may be able to turn things around.

New administration please.



Seriously, though, the US C4C program should have been limited to Big 3 auto sales only. F!in Obama.

___________________

codewize
12-11-09, 10:12 PM
Everyone is willing to complain but no one is willing to take action against it.

Americans are selfish a holes and are only concerned about their bottom line.

I don't care what it costs and I don't care one iota about fuel. I will never ever ever drive and imported vehicle. I'll walk first.


In my 50 years of driving and owning about 30 vehicles, I've never bought or owned a foreign car. Of course, even if a decent car was made by the Al-Qaeda, there'd be some "thoughtless Americans" lining up to buy.

Night Wolf
12-11-09, 10:34 PM
I like my imported vehicles. American car manufacters were naive and built junk for a while, allowing the imports to come in pretty easy.

I used to be pro-American and anti-import, but I take it back now, there are far more sides to this box then I once saw. If one thinks buying a "Ford" over a "Honda", especially on the used market, is doing their part to "help support USA" then they too are naive.

Actually after owning 1 Japaneese and 2 German vehicles - all entry-level, their overall build quality seems to be better then the 1 Chrysler, 1 Ford and 4 GM's I've owned/own. The vehicles in question are generally mid-80's to mid-90's, with the exception of my '79 DeVille and '05 Jeep. Most of which were high-end luxury cars. I have had better service from my imports, plus they just held together better. GM and Ford can build an excellent V8 and GM knows their automatic transmissions... but up until recently, the rest of the car would start to fall apart around itself, piece by piece.

Theres a reason why older 80's to mid-90's era Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes etc... were known, and still routinely go hundreds of thousands of miles, and show their age well.

FWIW, I don't support any gov't bail out, and espeically the screwed up C4C program, it was so screwed up across the board, that making it US-car only was the perhaps the least of the problem. Then again, I work for the gov't - so I see the screwed up process "work" every day...

Don't take it out on the cars, which often times were good. Take it out on the politics behind the operations. Dig in a bit - you'd be really surprised at what you'll find.... especially when you start getting into all the NWO stuff, and realize it is no longer "USA vs Japan" etc...

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 12:25 AM
I like my imported vehicles. American car manufacters were naive and built junk for a while, allowing the imports to come in pretty easy.

I used to be pro-American and anti-import, but I take it back now, there are far more sides to this box then I once saw. If one thinks buying a "Ford" over a "Honda", especially on the used market, is doing their part to "help support USA" then they too are naive.

Actually after owning 1 Japaneese and 2 German vehicles - all entry-level, their overall build quality seems to be better then the 1 Chrysler, 1 Ford and 4 GM's I've owned/own. The vehicles in question are generally mid-80's to mid-90's, with the exception of my '79 DeVille and '05 Jeep. Most of which were high-end luxury cars. I have had better service from my imports, plus they just held together better. GM and Ford can build an excellent V8 and GM knows their automatic transmissions... but up until recently, the rest of the car would start to fall apart around itself, piece by piece.

Theres a reason why older 80's to mid-90's era Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes etc... were known, and still routinely go hundreds of thousands of miles, and show their age well.

FWIW, I don't support any gov't bail out, and espeically the screwed up C4C program, it was so screwed up across the board, that making it US-car only was the perhaps the least of the problem. Then again, I work for the gov't - so I see the screwed up process "work" every day...

Don't take it out on the cars, which often times were good. Take it out on the politics behind the operations. Dig in a bit - you'd be really surprised at what you'll find.... especially when you start getting into all the NWO stuff, and realize it is no longer "USA vs Japan" etc...

Finally, a voice of reason.

It's because of everyone who says "I'll never buy an import" and "I'll always buy a domestic no matter what" that the American carmakers felt that they could get away by making and selling pieces of junk for the past several decades. And when an import buyer tries to give a domestic car a chance, they end up getting burned when the car breaks down on them. I'm a believer that the domestic carmakers' push for improved quality is genuine, but I'm a bigger believer that business should be won on the basis of building a better product, and not blind nationalism.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-12-09, 01:37 AM
Finally, a voice of reason.

It's because of everyone who says "I'll never buy an import" and "I'll always buy a domestic no matter what" that the American carmakers felt that they could get away by making and selling pieces of junk for the past several decades. And when an import buyer tries to give a domestic car a chance, they end up getting burned when the car breaks down on them. I'm a believer that the domestic carmakers' push for improved quality is genuine, but I'm a bigger believer that business should be won on the basis of building a better product, and not blind nationalism.

:yup: x1,000,000. :yup:

gary88
12-12-09, 02:56 AM
Nice of Autoblog to leave out the reason why American cars aren't eligible.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/detroit-japans-cash-for-clunker-program-unfair/


The problem, in a nutshell, is that American automakers have sold a combined 7,901 vehicles in Japan this year. Because those numbers are so low, the Detroit firms are allowed to import vehicles under a program where their fuel efficiency does not have to be rated by the Japanese government. Because it doesn’t have official efficiency data on the low-volume models that use this program, the Japanese government has made them ineligible for the program. If we’re not mistaken though, this importation program isn’t mandated by the Japanese government, but automakers choose to use it anyway. Presumably, if Detroit had any models that could really compete in a 35.5 mpg market, they’d import them through normal channels. But with fewer than 8k units sold YTD, the Japanese market can’t possibly worth the trouble, which explains why the shrilly irrelevant AAPC was put on the case.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 06:22 AM
Nice of Autoblog to leave out the reason why American cars aren't eligible.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/detroit-japans-cash-for-clunker-program-unfair/

Oh schnap yo!

LS1Mike
12-12-09, 06:44 AM
Nice of Autoblog to leave out the reason why American cars aren't eligible.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/detroit-japans-cash-for-clunker-program-unfair/

What the idiots at truth about cars left out is the fact that the taxes on American cars in Japan make the cars untouchable by the normal buying public. In addition to that in Japan you have to purchase or rent a parking spot. In order to get that spot you must have, guess what, a Japanese car only after you have the spot and a Japanese car can you buy an import as a second car. Make sense now why they only sell about 8000 American cars over there?

This is all common knowledge if work for the DOD or are in the Navy as there is a huge Duty station over there. Guys don't bring their cars with them becasue they can't get a parking spot. If you are going to Japan they explain the whole process in depth. It is a pain to own a car there and even more difficult to own an Import car there. The only people in Japan who have American cars have money to burn. Japan effectively keeps everone out of the Market. Ask anyone who has lived there. The guy I work with is retired Navy and lived there for three years. He said it is ridiculous.
The Japanese market is not worth the trouble because no one can afford an American Car there.

I won't debate anything else said in here, but anything the Truth about cars says is suspect. I have read some of their crap before and it contains a lot of miss information.

codewize
12-12-09, 10:54 AM
I also agree, I'm a business owner and I personally believe that competition is healthy. I'll buy American simply out of principal but I understand the point made and I totally agree. The better product, including service, should win the battle.


:yup: x1,000,000. :yup:

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 11:56 AM
What the idiots at truth about cars left out is the fact that the taxes on American cars in Japan make the cars untouchable by the normal buying public. In addition to that in Japan you have to purchase or rent a parking spot. In order to get that spot you must have, guess what, a Japanese car only after you have the spot and a Japanese car can you buy an import as a second car. Make sense now why they only sell about 8000 American cars over there?

This is all common knowledge if work for the DOD or are in the Navy as there is a huge Duty station over there. Guys don't bring their cars with them becasue they can't get a parking spot. If you are going to Japan they explain the whole process in depth. It is a pain to own a car there and even more difficult to own an Import car there. The only people in Japan who have American cars have money to burn. Japan effectively keeps everone out of the Market. Ask anyone who has lived there. The guy I work with is retired Navy and lived there for three years. He said it is ridiculous.
The Japanese market is not worth the trouble because no one can afford an American Car there.

I won't debate anything else said in here, but anything the Truth about cars says is suspect. I have read some of their crap before and it contains a lot of miss information.

Which goes back to having an issue with the politics behind the operations - not the cars. Simply having a GM parked in your driveway instead of a Toyota isn't doing a darn thing to change the situation.

There seems to be two different debates here - cars and politics. Its those that make the "I'll only buy American and never own an import" that fail to see the barrier and are stuck in their ways.

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 12:03 PM
Don't forget that it's cars like the BMW 3-series and Infiniti G35 that we have to thank for Cadillac's newfound competitiveness in the CTS. If those cars weren't available to American buyers, Cadillac would still be making overpriced Crapaliers with hood ornaments tacked on. Hell, Lincoln is still trying to get by using family sedan chassis for their luxury cars, and Cadillac is headed back in that direction with the XTS.

LS1Mike
12-12-09, 12:13 PM
Which goes back to having an issue with the politics behind the operations - not the cars. Simply having a GM parked in your driveway instead of a Toyota isn't doing a darn thing to change the situation.

There seems to be two different debates here - cars and politics. Its those that make the "I'll only buy American and never own an import" that fail to see the barrier and are stuck in their ways.

or they are people with conviction and stick by what they say. I won't have this debate here again.

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 12:21 PM
I just think that it's silly because people are doing themselves a disservice by keeping such a closed mind. If I'm dropping this kind of $$$ to buy a new car, you better believe I want the best one for the price, regardless of country of origin.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 02:02 PM
Agreed. It dosent matter what car you get if you research/test out the various makes and models, in whatever market segment they want, both import and domestic.

I used to be that way, which is why I feel so strong against it now. I kept myself from truelt excellent cars just because it wasn't from the big 3. Then I found the joy of the e30, and even if I wanted a compareable car from the US, they simply didn't make anything to sell in the US that can compete with that car. It took them another 20yrs until GM built the Solstice/Sky to have something similar.

A friend has a Ford Focus SVT and it is built in Mexico. For the last couple decades GM and Ford have sold vehicles in Europe and Australia that far surpass what was offered here, but were not built in the US.

LS1Mike
12-12-09, 02:36 PM
I am well aware of what the Import cars have to offer and what their track record is. You may feel people such as myself are doing ourselves a disservice. We however, do not feel that way. Drive what you want, but don't lecture or get mad at guys like me because we do not wish to buy Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc, etc.

codewize
12-12-09, 02:50 PM
I'll put a CTS or a DTS against any import. Start comparing features and options etc per $. Show me a car from any country with the options a DTS or CTS has in the same price range.

It's agreed that years ago American cars were of less quality but today it's a whole new world.

Did anyone at all here see the CTS-V challenge at Monticello raceway. The proof is in the pudding.

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 03:19 PM
well duh, I have a CTS, so I don't need to be convinced how well it stands up against its competition. I'm just saying that it's because of that competition that we are able to have such a great car.

As for the DTS, it's not really geared towards import competition. Closest would be a Lexus ES350, or a Hyundai Genesis Sedan, which is light-years ahead of the DTS.

LS1Mike
12-12-09, 03:21 PM
well duh, I have a CTS, so I don't need to be convinced how well it stands up against its competition. I'm just saying that it's because of that competition that we are able to have such a great car.



That I do happen to agree with.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 03:36 PM
I am well aware of what the Import cars have to offer and what their track record is. You may feel people such as myself are doing ourselves a disservice. We however, do not feel that way. Drive what you want, but don't lecture or get mad at guys like me because we do not wish to buy Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc, etc.

Who is getting mad? You can buy whatever you want! I'm sure you have your reasons for feeling the way you do, I used to feel very similar.

I am really glad I only went as far as I did before opening up a much larger world of vehicles then what I once did.


I'll put a CTS or a DTS against any import. Start comparing features and options etc per $. Show me a car from any country with the options a DTS or CTS has in the same price range.

It's agreed that years ago American cars were of less quality but today it's a whole new world.

Did anyone at all here see the CTS-V challenge at Monticello raceway. The proof is in the pudding.

As was mentioned, it is because of all these horrid imports that GM and Ford are now creating cars that can actually compete. Up until the 1st gen CTS came along, Cadillac didn't have a car remotely similar to what was considered the benchmark. The 1st gen CTS had a cheap interior, the new CTS is pretty darn nice. As for the DTS, it's FWD and now aging.

I am not up to date on new cars, simply because it will be quite a while until I could afford one, so I am still in the 80's-90's period. As far as that was concerned, GM, Ford and Chrysler simply didn't even create a car that could compete in the market segment I am now interested in.

There are good and bad cars from all manufacturers and someone can drive whatever they want, for whatever reasons they want. If someone dosen't want to drive a Honda because they got burned by one, then fine. But is someone dosen't want to drive a Honda because they think they are no longer supporting the US and are now supporting the Japaneese gov't, that is what I am talking about.

orconn
12-12-09, 05:36 PM
I agree that competition has greatly improved what American carmakers are now supplying to the American buyer. And I won't beat the dead horse about how poor quality and poor performance drove many Americans to chose foreign cars over domestic cars in the eighties and nineties. But what bothers me is our government giving incentives for American companies to move manufacturing overseas and allowing lopsided competition to take place by allowing foreign countries to descriminate against our products while we bend over backwards to give access to our U.S. market on very favorable terms.

While following the Second World War there was a good reason to give favored treatment to recovering econmies and the same still may hood true for emerging countries, once these countries have achievesd procutive parity with us, it is time for us to demand equal access to their markets so true competition can take place.

The American people are also to blame by continuing to enhance their standard of living by choosing products available at artificially low prices ("Dumping" has been rampant for years) thus driving American overseas or out of business. Our government has been remiss in not enforcing "ati-dumoing" laws and requiring countries which want to sell in the American market be required to American companies fair access to their markets.

Ranger
12-12-09, 05:50 PM
This could be handled very easy IF our government had any balls. You simply take the Japanese import regulations and fees, slap an American government logo on it and hand it back to them. If it's good enough for us, it's certainly good enough for you. Then see how fast things would change.

And when I am king, that is the way it shall be by royal decree.

orconn
12-12-09, 06:01 PM
To those that say that the Japanese buyer wouldn't buy American anyway, I would beg to differ. Having lived in Japan for several years and having worked with many Japanese over the years I can tell their have been many American car models the Japanese would have bought by the tons. It has been the outrageous duties, taxes and markups that have kept American cars out of the Japanese markets ... not the lack of desirabilty of our products. all the old Japanese government excuses that have been used over the years to justify their exclusion of American products have long become invalid. Today it is unjustified protectionism fostered by the government and aided and abetted by a closed and discrimnartory business environment that has non-Japanese products at a distinct disadvantage in the Japanese marketplace.

Vinsanity
12-12-09, 06:28 PM
This could be handled very easy IF our government had any balls. You simply take the Japanese import regulations and fees, slap an American government logo on it and hand it back to them. If it's good enough for us, it's certainly good enough for you. Then see how fast things would change.

And when I am king, that is the way it shall be by royal decree.

Why would we want to be like them? I like having a free market economy.

Night Wolf
12-12-09, 08:02 PM
I agree that competition has greatly improved what American carmakers are now supplying to the American buyer. And I won't beat the dead horse about how poor quality and poor performance drove many Americans to chose foreign cars over domestic cars in the eighties and nineties. But what bothers me is our government giving incentives for American companies to move manufacturing overseas and allowing lopsided competition to take place by allowing foreign countries to descriminate against our products while we bend over backwards to give access to our U.S. market on very favorable terms.

While following the Second World War there was a good reason to give favored treatment to recovering econmies and the same still may hood true for emerging countries, once these countries have achievesd procutive parity with us, it is time for us to demand equal access to their markets so true competition can take place.

The American people are also to blame by continuing to enhance their standard of living by choosing products available at artificially low prices ("Dumping" has been rampant for years) thus driving American overseas or out of business. Our government has been remiss in not enforcing "ati-dumoing" laws and requiring countries which want to sell in the American market be required to American companies fair access to their markets.


To those that say that the Japanese buyer wouldn't buy American anyway, I would beg to differ. Having lived in Japan for several years and having worked with many Japanese over the years I can tell their have been many American car models the Japanese would have bought by the tons. It has been the outrageous duties, taxes and markups that have kept American cars out of the Japanese markets ... not the lack of desirabilty of our products. all the old Japanese government excuses that have been used over the years to justify their exclusion of American products have long become invalid. Today it is unjustified protectionism fostered by the government and aided and abetted by a closed and discrimnartory business environment that has non-Japanese products at a distinct disadvantage in the Japanese marketplace.

Understandable. This goes back to the politics behind the scenes, not the cars. Driving an Accord over a Malibu is not going to have an effect on the on the above. Choosing to only buy "USA" and never own an import for the sole purpose of where the brand originated from isn't doing anything other then just making a statement.

Ranger
12-13-09, 01:50 PM
Why would we want to be like them? I like having a free market economy.
To force them to open their markets to us. A free market economy is (or should be) a two way street.

Vinsanity
12-13-09, 02:05 PM
To force them to open their markets to us. A free market economy is (or should be) a two way street.

Their protectionist policies are causing their economic growth to stagnate. I could care less how they ruin their economy, but it doesn't mean we have to stoop to the same level and sacrifice our own to make some stupid point.

V-Eight
12-13-09, 03:55 PM
To force them to open their markets to us. A free market economy is (or should be) a two way street.

Well said.