: Today's Racing Question: Studs or Norm's?



bigds01
11-29-09, 02:23 PM
So we are about to drop the engine on the 94 sls and the question is should we go with Norm's or studs? Which is easier to install? Is there any real difference if I am only expecting another 3-5k miles (albeit under really heavy conditions)?

Krashed989
11-29-09, 11:49 PM
I can't say which is better because personally I've never heard of either failing. I can say that studs are most often used in race cars though, but that's mostly because you don't have to replace them every time you r&r the heads. It's really a matter of opinion. Personally I would go with the studs, but others might want Norms.

97EldoCoupe
11-30-09, 12:05 AM
bigds01 - are you the man who called me a while ago regarding that race you plan to be in? Let me know the progress of that. I'm quite interested.

bigds01
11-30-09, 07:57 AM
bigds01 - are you the man who called me a while ago regarding that race you plan to be in? Let me know the progress of that. I'm quite interested.


Yup Jake that was me. We haven't started the tear down yet, which is why I haven't ordered the kit. I am strongly leaning towards studs.

Taspeed
11-30-09, 05:24 PM
Studs hands down. Just by sheer design the inserts can fail, but studs are far superior. They will likely be a permanent fixture as well.

STSS
11-30-09, 05:32 PM
+1 for studs

eyekandyboats.inc
11-30-09, 05:55 PM
+2 for studs.

bigds01
11-30-09, 07:30 PM
The studs have it.

eyekandyboats.inc
11-30-09, 09:28 PM
Thats what she said!!!:alchi:

The studs have it.

94CaddyConcours
12-01-09, 12:11 AM
And Jake will be happy yo assist you not only about stud but other invaluable answer. Supporting Jake is like supporting this forum. Plus I'm sure you would love to race the engine again should it has a blown head gasket after the stud.

97EldoCoupe
12-01-09, 07:13 AM
I thank everyone for the support! The studs are officially patent pending after months and months of write-ups, engineering drawings, more testing, more development, having a patent attorney and an engineer visit the shop from New York, more drawings, more write-ups... The final submission was 34 pages in length not including the drawings.

I'd never met such an educated man that was so down to earth about things. The engineer that came spent a few hours with me discussing all kinds of different ideas. His wife was apparently upset with him because he had a Northstar block in the bedroom that had studs on one side and stock bolts screwed into place on the other..,

STSS
12-01-09, 10:57 AM
he had a Northstar block in the bedroom

Thats a REAL man....

stssteve
12-03-09, 06:06 PM
+1 for the studs. I had them installed well over a year and 20+K mi on them. Prior to having this done I was contemplating selling the car a year after the repair. Now... I love my Caddy more than ever. My driving consists of driving from a downtown area through heavy traffic and then expressway driving to and from work aprox 75mi/day of mixed driving. These things have defiantely passed the test!

00 Deville
12-03-09, 07:32 PM
His wife was apparently upset with him because he had a Northstar block in the bedroom that had studs on one side and stock bolts screwed into place on the other..,

She was upset because she wanted Studs on both sides...

Submariner409
12-03-09, 07:53 PM
Post #12: You know how macho your are by counting the number of cylinders you own - everything from the Cadillac to the log splitter and leaf blowers.

I have 43.

eyekandyboats.inc
12-03-09, 08:01 PM
nice!
i have 67, cars, boats, and toys

Post #12: You know how macho your are by counting the number of cylinders you own - everything from the Cadillac to the log splitter and leaf blowers.

I have 43.

Douglass Harroun
12-03-09, 09:27 PM
I believe studs are better for this motor. We have a Cad dealer tech who tells about insert failures he has seen. Do a search on the forum. We haven't heard of studs failing yet. I wonder how many thousands of inserts have been done and what the failure percent is.
Doug

STSS
12-04-09, 08:44 AM
I have 43.

The more I learn about you Sub, the more I want to grow up to be just like you.

I'm up to 26.... looking for 8 more (with blown HGs) :bighead:

Submariner409
12-04-09, 03:26 PM
:D Just like my Navy career: 26 years of undetected crime.......:sneaky:

zonie77
12-04-09, 08:09 PM
I think installation procedures are much more critical on the inserts. If you get an inexperienced tech who just wants to finish the job in a hurry you get a pretty high failure rate. If you get Submariner409 doing them all you would have a fairly low failure rate.

Saying that, I think the studs are a stronger fix with a lower failure rate.

IXSLR8
12-05-09, 04:00 AM
You can use studs with Norms inserts. I installed ARP studs and used Norms inserts before I knew about Jake's studs.

I like the idea of using less parts when it comes to holding down the heads...so the one piece stud idea is a nice idea.

I'm also using Cometic head gaskets and Hylomar sealer and have found it to work just fine.

But both stud approaches seem to work fine and are significantly better than head bolts from what I understand.

eyekandyboats.inc
12-05-09, 04:42 PM
Oh really? i had no idea!. why would you want to use Norms anyway considering the Studs are out on the market?

You can use studs with Norms inserts

Submariner409
12-05-09, 04:59 PM
The ARP stud in a Norm's Insert has been around for years. It is only a slightly less elegant solution than Jakes studs.

One of the (very distinct) advantages of studs is that they have a fine machine thread at the top (coarse thread in the block) so nut torque and precision clamp pressures are easier to obtain. You don't torque a stud into the block - just past finger tight is enough.

00 Deville
12-05-09, 10:47 PM
Why would you want to use Norms anyway considering the Studs are out on the market?

Without getting into a debate over the pros and cons of Jake's studs vs. Norm's inserts. Norm's can be used with the engine still in the car. Jake's studs require the engine to be removed.

bigds01
12-06-09, 07:14 PM
Without getting into a debate over the pros and cons of Jake's studs vs. Norm's inserts. Norm's can be used with the engine still in the car. Jake's studs require the engine to be removed.

Wow, I didn't know that Norm's can be done with the engine in the car. I thought the big deal with the caddy's was you had to drop the engine to do the hg replacement.

Is it true that you dont have to drop the engine to use norm's serts?

Submariner409
12-06-09, 08:08 PM
For inserts you don't have to drop the cradle, but your work and life will be much simpler if you do. To do a good, precise insert machining job with the engine in the car there are a few twists and tricks to use, such as a slight rotation of the entire engine assembly in order to get clearance to install the drill jig and drill and tap the rear lower line of head bolt holes. It is not easy, and if you don't have a calibrated mechanics eye and experience with precision drilling and tapping, you're much safer to drop the cradle. An insert job in the car is not for the faint of heart. Mike Lawson over in Kentucky does his work in the car, but he's been at it a while and has the tools..............

00 Deville
12-07-09, 11:20 AM
Wow, I didn't know that Norm's can be done with the engine in the car. I thought the big deal with the caddy's was you had to drop the engine to do the hg replacement.

Is it true that you dont have to drop the engine to use norm's serts?


There has been several debates over what method is the best or easiest.... most people do drop the engine out the bottom to do the HG repair. Jake pulls the engine out the top... Mike Lawson and a couple others on this forum have done it in the car. Videos of Mike doing one in the car are available on his website.

http://cadillacspecialties.com/gallery.html

I do agree with Sub that dropping the cradle is probably the easiest way for most people. Both Mike and Jake have done many of these and have each perfected there own method and personal preferences.

97EldoCoupe
12-09-09, 10:27 AM
Personally I don't agree with doing the work in the car. Drilling & tapping creates a mess of aluminum chips. To each his own, but the amount of stuff in the engine bay you have to work around with a drill and tap, makes it difficult. The best way is with the cradle dropped or the engine out. Or both. Block taped up, no engine parts laying around, nothing getting in holes such as the transmission vent tube or alternator, A/C lines, power steering lines, etc...

Mike is careful, I know.

But still. Doing the work with the engine in the car still allows you NO access to the block seals/oil pan seals. How many cars need the bottom engine re-sealed? I do this on every car. Who wants to do a head gasket job and then have to pull the engine again 6 months later to do the lower seals... So many of the ones I see need it done. The odd time I'll find a car who's already had the engine re-sealed by a dealer. The one STS, they used so much RTV that there were strips of it in the oil pump pick-up.

I didn't re-seal the block on my '98 when I did the HG's. Guess what- it's coming out again. It's leaking enough that I can see smoke under the hood when I come to a stop...