: Confused as hell



bigds01
11-21-09, 10:21 PM
So I am reading the service manuals for the 94 seville and now I am just confused. I have read on the site that most people drop the engine, but in the service manual it is designed to pull the engine from the top.

Now I am really confused.

Ranger
11-21-09, 10:56 PM
the service manual it is designed to pull the engine from the top. Now I am really confused.

That makes 2 of us.

bigds01
11-22-09, 12:40 AM
That makes 2 of us.


There are a ton of postings here where people dropped the engine in its carriage when doing the hg job. When I read the service manual it is all about pulling the engine from the top, not dropping the carriage, lifting the car and rolling the engine out.

zonie77
11-22-09, 01:44 AM
I have to go to the garage to check, but I'm pretty sure it gives instructions on dropping it. I will check in the morning.

bigds01
11-22-09, 08:36 AM
My book is the 94 shop manual for seville/etc

smooththg6969
11-22-09, 09:10 AM
I have two methods listed in my manuals the preferred (from the bottom), and the (alternate form the top)



1994 Cadillac Seville SLS V8-4.6L VIN Y
Engine: Service and Repair
Engine Replacement (Preferred Method)
POWERTRAIN ASSEMBLY REMOVAL/INSTALLATION (PREFERRED METHOD)
NOTE: The preferred method of removing the engine assembly is through the bottom of the vehicle. If the necessary equipment is not
available, use the alternate service removal procedure.

zonie77
11-22-09, 02:51 PM
I have the 94 manual with the green cover. I couldn't even find the listing, the back index says section 6E but when I look at that index I can't find removals. I flipped through and found a section and that one was to drop the cradle.

My wife has a list a mile and a half long before Thanksgiving so I don't have a lot of time to flip pages.

For all the things you want to do...DROP THE CRADLE. It gives you access to the engine and trans and is the fastest way if you are only doing it once. A lot of the bolts are hard to access and if you don't have a lot of tools it wastes too much time. If you were going to keep doing this and had a lot of extensions and swivels you could leave some set up for various bolts. First time you are learning that and it will take way longer. If you have several guys working (which you never tell us) at once dropping the cradle would be fairly fast.

bigds01
11-22-09, 05:16 PM
Oh, there are 7 of us doing the work.

zonie77
11-22-09, 07:10 PM
Oh, there are 7 of us doing the work.

Then I'd still advise dropping. You have room for many people to work at a time. One person has to be the "supervisor" and tell the other people what to do. Loosely and informally of course, you don't want anyone upset.

tateos
11-23-09, 05:45 PM
I have tried it both ways - I started out trying to take it out the top - later ended up dropping the cradle. Say this out loud, and keep repeating it, until you have this memorized and won't have to ask the question again:

"DROP...THE...CRADLE.....DROP...THE...CRADLE.....DR OP...THE...CRADLE"

You will save yourself and your friends a lot of time, wasted efforts. and busted knuckles.

zonie77
11-23-09, 07:15 PM
Oh, there are 7 of us doing the work.

Glad to hear there are a bunch of workers and not just a bunch of drivers!

94CaddyConcours
11-23-09, 08:28 PM
"DROP...THE...CRADLE.....DROP...THE...CRADLE.....DR OP...THE...CRADLE"


I can't really comment because I never done it before. But Jake(97eldo) does it from the top and many times. Novice from bottom, expert from top.


Glad to hear there are a bunch of workers and not just a bunch of drivers!

LOL

zonie77
11-23-09, 10:22 PM
I can't really comment because I never done it before. But Jake(97eldo) does it from the top and many times. Novice from bottom, expert from top.



LOL

That's actually right. It's easier for a novice to drop it. Jake's set up to pull from the top. In an older thread he said he's set up and I think he modified some tools to make it easier to pull out the top. If you were going to make a living at it it would make sense to get set up to pull out the top. For one or two, not too much sense to pull out the top.

Krashed989
11-23-09, 10:52 PM
I have done it from the top once (94 seville STS)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1213.jpg

And from the bottom 4 times (twice on my 94 eldo and twice on my dads 99 eldo). These are one picture from each occasion.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1242.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1374.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1509.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1693.jpg

I can assure you it's MUCH easier from the bottom.

codewize
11-24-09, 12:10 AM
I haven't done it either way but what I understand from folks here, in the shops and my transmission guy, one would have to be the type to enjoy pain and frustration to even think about pulling it from the top.

There are no benefits and it's 40 times more difficult and you probably have 40 more chances to damage the car.

Krashed989
11-24-09, 03:03 AM
Lets see if I can write up a guide for dropping the cradle for you. This is going to be long because I'm going to try to be detailed. Also since you have a lot of people working on it, you might want to divide it up more. Maybe jack the car up first so they can work in the wheel wells and get everything done faster.

Dropping the cradle on a 94 Seville and leaving out the a/c

First
-Spray the two bolts on the exhaust (the ones with the springs) with penetrating lubricant.

Engine bay
-Take off the plastic cover from over the headlights.
-Take a 13mm ratchet and remove all cross braces (strut to strut, strut to radiator support)
-Unhook the battery and take it out (one 13mm bolt is holding the battery in place)
-Take off the cover over the fuse panel (one or two snap rivets)
-Take off the intake duct (loosen just the hose clamp at the throttle body. The whole air cleaner box and duct will pull right off)
-Unbolt the three 13mm bolts holding each dogbone mount to the radiator support. Flop the dogbones ontop of the engine to get them out of the way. Put the bolts back in their holes to keep them organized.
-Unbolt the airbag sensor from the radiator support and set it on top of the radiator support (you can't get to the plug) 10mm.
-Take out the passenger side fan and unbolt the drivers side fan 10mm.
-Maneuver the drivers side fan so it's on it's side, the bottom facing the passenger side.
-Disconnect the radiator hoses from the waterpump housing.
-Disconnect the transmission and oil cooler lines (if equipped) from the radiator (dont bother with the plastic "quick connect" it's almost 16 years old, it will be brittle. Just unscrew it from the radiator with an adjustable wrench.)
-Now that the way is clear, unplug the drivers side fan (a PITA, you need a really tiny screwdriver or a small allen wrench to stick in there to lift the tab and unplug it). Then pull the fan out from where the coolant hoses are disconnected on the drivers side.
-Unbolt the radiator brace (the plastic thing on top of the radiator) 10mm bolts
-Take a screw driver and let the freon out of the a/c from one of the valves
-Unhook the two a/c lines going to the condenser core
-Unbolt the condenser bolts (two bolts, one on top of each radiator side tank)
-Push the condenser/radiator back towards the engine. Pull them apart to find that the condenser has a flat hook on either side going into loops on the radiator side tanks. Lift up on the condenser and use a long flat object (I used a yardstick) to push the hooks out of the loops.
-Push the condenser/radiator towards the front of the car all the way to gain room to pull the radiator out.
-Take out the condenser and sell it on ebay
-Unplug the cruise control servo
-There are three 10mm bolts on the cruise control servo bracket. Unbolt them.
-Lift up the small black tab on the throttle cable and lift it up out of its bracket.
-Disconnect the throttle and cruise control cables from the throttle lever by pushing the ball at the end of each cable backwards through the lever.
-Move the cruise control servo to the side.
-Unhook the fuel lines using a disconnect tool.
-Unbolt the shifter linkage from the tranny and move it to the side.
-Take out the Accumulator for the a/c
-Unplug the wires going to the a/c pressure switch and pressure sensors as well as the blower motor.
-Unhook the heater hoses on the passenger side where they hook into the pipes that run behind the engine. (another PITA, they're usually seized on there. If you have any masochists in the group, this is a job for them)
-There is a vacuum line that comes out from under the passenger side of the intake manifold. Follow it to where it hooks into a Y connection. Disconnect two of the lines from that Y.
-Unbolt the 7mm bolts from where the wiring harness goes through the firewall on the passenger side. (DO NOT drop anything over there. You may never get it back.)
-Go into the car and remove the under dash panel on the passenger side.
-Unhook the big black plug to the dashboard wiring harness
-Unhook the red white and blue (patriotic. lol) plugs from the PCM
-Disconnect the main vacuum line
-Have someone guide the wires through while you pull them through
-If you have too much difficulty you may want to remove the PCM (one 10mm bolt unhooks the clip from the body of the car, then you lift it up and swing it out.)
-Unhook the positive lead from the fuse block.
-Follow the main engine harness to the fuse blocks and figure out which ones have to be disconnected
-Use a very small flathead screwdriver to release all for corners of the fuse blocks and lift them up to disconnect them
-Unbolt that big connection next to the fuse blocks and disconnect it.
-Lift up on all four relays to disconnect them from the bracket, then feed them underneath the fuse/relay center
-Unplug the EBTCM (Electronic Brake and Traction Control Module and remove the ground wire to it.
-Loosen the three nuts on the EBTCM (it stays with the car)
-Wrap a wire or something around the EBTCM and tie it to the body somewhere (so it doesn't hang by the brakelines later)
-Unbolt the Powersteering cooler (two bolts) and unclip the hoses.
-Make sure the powersteering cooler has a way out of the bottom of the bumper.

Passenger wheel well
-Take out all of the splash sheilds
-Unbolt the brake caliper and remove the rotor. Hang the caliper on the strut for now but remember that the strut is leaving and the caliper is staying so you're going to have to move it later.
-Unplug the wheel speed sensor
-Follow the wires from the strut and the ride height sensor to the plug and unplug them. Use a flathead screwdriver to release the clips for the wires. Tie the wires around the strut to keep organized.
-Remove the 10mm bolt from the top of the ride height sensor.

Drivers side wheel well
-Take out all of the splash sheilds
-Unbolt the brake caliper and remove the rotor. Hang the caliper on the strut for now but remember that the strut is leaving and the caliper is staying so you're going to have to move it later.
-Unplug the wheel speed sensor
-Follow the wires from the strut and the ride height sensor to the plug and unplug them. Use a flathead screwdriver to release the clips for the wires. Tie the wires around the strut to keep organized.
-Remove the 10mm bolt from the top of the ride height sensor.
-Take a really long extension with a universal joint at the end and an 11mm socket. Lift up the boot over the power steering shaft and completely remove the bolt. Use a prybar to lift up on the linkage and it should come free. If the boot makes this difficult, pull it up and stick a screwdriver through the linkage to keep it up.

Underneath
-Take off all plastic and fake leather (rubberized cardboard it seems) panels from underneath the radiator support and the front bumper.
-Unbolt the two exhaust bolts (that you sprayed first) and pull the exhaust back to disconnect the pipe.

Dropping it out
-Get your dolly, or whatever your setting the cradle on, ready. Maneuver it into position
-Hook up the engine hoist to the radiator support. Be careful of the wiring harness. Fish the chain under the wiring harness so you don't pinch any wires.
-Lift the front of the car with the engine hoist to get the jack stand out
-Lower the front of the car onto the dolly or whatever you're using.
-Mark and then undo the six 13mm nuts on top of the struts
-Unbolt the six 15mm cradle bolts
-Slowly lift the car off of the cradle
-Keep an eye out for anything that I may have left out in this post.
-When I had the car on a lift to do the job, I found that the thermostat housing had to be removed to clear the EBTCM (four 10mm bolts).
-When the engine is out a little ways, tie the calipers to the strut bolt holes. so they aren't hanging by the rubber hoses.
-Fish the wiring harness (the end with the fuse blocks) through the brake lines under the master cylinder as you drop the cradle, unless you already were able to do so with the engine still in.

I hope this helps... I think that's everything. :thumbsup:

94CaddyConcours
11-24-09, 03:23 AM
I hope this helps... I think that's everything. :thumbsup:
Seriously you or one of the member should start getting picture or video of the work. I can imagine how much it would benefit our community. Guarantee you I will be watching it it couples of time even though I have no interest in pulling my engine out. Regardless you all are invaluable to this forum. :thumbsup: